The Missing Ambassador of the World Cup

Welcome to Pablo Torre finds out I am Pablo Torre and today we're going to find out what this sound is If the world soccer fans can't stand step bladder, then why is he running again? So I decided it's three feet for president to bend sports journalist that I can run for feet for president too right after this ad Yo, hey bring it in. It's up bring it in this ptfo sweater You're good. Yeah, man. How are you doing? Yeah, great. I was gonna say your schedule is yeah, yeah, yeah, all over the place right now Yeah, um, wait, so what's your schedule from here? Uh, so we're so it's EBS. We're just doing stuff all day Right, I went to as a fan. I bought a ticket and got I went to Scotland Haiti, which is awesome Yeah, walking from home that looks like amazing I was standing online for a beer and then I was all these people who just like randomly started hugging for no reason Because of Haiti had to made it since 1974 and there are all the other things they're in and Scotland had it made it since 98 and They're just there for a giant party and they're like, oh my god. We're here. We're doing it. One of the things Chris waiting him Thank you for being here by the way. Yeah, no problem. One of the things about the World Cup that always hits me once it gets going is like As much as I think the thing we were just caring about the NBA finals or any other sporting event is the thing The World Cup is it's it's one of a kind. Yeah, you feel it in this city as well even on the subway over the they have like the wrapped ones and you see the jerseys and It is such an incredible Cultural exchange on top of it being the world's biggest sporting event by a mile I was going away that the combined TV rating number an English and Spanish was bigger than the first four NBA finals game for the US game on Friday night I was astounded by that because it does it just goes to show number one people love throwing themselves in the flag But it is this thing that is now being reintroduced to America for the first time in 32 years that it just transcends in a way That very few other things do actually I would legitimately say nothing does it wasn't always that way But it is now I was doing my own like historical review of the 94 World Cup in the 80s. There is a house debate on Capitol Hill about whether the US should support bidding for the 94 World Cup and Jack Camp former Republican from New York NFL quarterback said, quote, football as in the NFL football as democratic capitalism Whereas soccer is a European socialist sport And then USA today that same year a writer says that the case being made by soccer's fanboys is quote what the Russians told us about communism That it is the secret siop that is here to plant in the minds of Americans to be anti-American. It's hilarious But it was accused of being this whole like foreign Operation and a person I think about in terms of the Americans who've been trying to explain like hey This is a real story the math on this is not fake This is actually the most popular thing on the planet is the guy that both of us used to work with yeah point think about all of the time but especially During this time of year during this world cup grant wall Mm-hmm and for people who don't know of grant who didn't know his work as a journalist How would you summarize him? I would say he was America's preeminent soccer journalist and that has multiple tentacles because He was this sort of conduit from the world to the United States So a lot of people that came to grant to tell the story of the sport in the country But at the same time while being a sort of very big force in that way You also by virtue of being a soccer writer have to be an evangelist for the sport and presumably continually ask the editors at sports Illustrated and the American public to please care about this thing that the entire world cares about We are one of the very few countries for whom football is not the number one sport in the country You're you're talking about obviously, you know Australia. You're talking about India with cricket But in terms of big nations all of South America the lion share of Europe Most of the world is insane to have to summarize how much the world cares about soccer So that American especially when he sort of was starting in the mid to late 90s as sort of this person who was saying Okay, I am a college basketball writer from Kansas. I'm going to a shoe that to become this evangelist for this sport that is massive around the world But day by day step by step is getting bigger in the United States But still kind of needs explanation even to this day Right, and I should say that when I was a fact checker at sports illustrated and Grant wall was a senior writer I'm the legend of him first of all He was the number one college basketball writer in America at sports illustrated and then he was also the LeBron cover guy Yeah, somebody who took pride in like knowing what the next big thing was gonna be when you think of that LeBron Sports Illustrated cover when he's in high school and it's you know, it's the thing that stamps. Hey, you should pay attention to this That's Grant as well. Yeah, and so one person I talked to of course I had to is Celine Gounder, Dr. Celine Gounder a noted epidemiologist and also somebody who was in this context very important to understand because She married Grant wall he had to fight he really did have to fight to get soccer In the pages of the magazine. I'm trying to remember was it the French World Cup in 98 I want to say that it was not on the cover that it was Mike Dicca with a cigar That ended up making the cover that week and he was just like I would say he'd be tearing his hair out over it except he didn't have any hair But like he was just could not understand how We did not see the importance of that when how incredible and for people that don't remember so 98 the World Cup was in Paris It was one by friends Zinedine Zidane, you know, this is the header Not the headbutt not the header a different iconic moment involving his skull. He's also bald skull But this is what SI put on the cover instead. That's amazing. There it is New Orleans coach Mike Dicca wants all of us to forsake vice and Become real saints. Holy smoke and then on the top left corner a very small print sucker blue France stuns Brazil As Mike Dicca is holding a cigar It's July and we put the NFL on the cover 98. Yeah, of course. It is still stunning I don't think people quite understand the clawing for relevance that really isn't that long ago. That was 28 years ago I remember I was working in local radio Miami is always the biggest market for the World Cup always because of the multiculturalism and the text machine They were used to have that would like get texts from the audience. It was always stop this stop talking about this Tell me about dolphins minicamp, please and this was not that long ago And so you can imagine just like the timeline at sports illustrated as again this stand-in for mainstream sports media we go now to 99 and Grant Wall and you can imagine the triumph here in 1999 the USM's national team of course wins the World Cup and grant finally gets His cover of sports illustrated and this is of course unforgettable Can you describe the image that ends up bracing people's mailboxes? Yeah, so of course the United States are earning the World Cup final of 1999 I believe it was against China to this day is right up there in terms of top attendances ever for a US Soccer match over 90,000 at the Rose Bowl that go to a penalty shootout and Brandy Chastain has it on her foot to win the World Cup for the United States and she scores it and Rips off her top to reveal a sports brawl and at the time it was an incredibly risque thing to do It becomes the sort of enduring image of a number of things United States soccer period Women's soccer period this sort of proud feminism It becomes an extraordinary image that is seen on TV and sort of has to be captured in some way in terms of a legacy and grant Place a big role in doing that. Oh, yeah We talked to Brianna scurry who was the goalkeeper the shot save scary And the notion of self assertion as seen in that photograph and as seen in the coverage by grant. It still sticks out there The only place you found soccer was literally a great road about it He was covering soccer Way before it was cool. He wasn't like ooh women's soccer Ooh 99 other famous now let me let me show up and let me let me talk to these girls And he was there from the beginning when nobody really cared when when you know soccer was number 5 out of 5 I know the popular sports in the United States. I mean, let's just be very blunt about this having someone like grant saying this is important I mean this meant so much to these players He means a lot to me and to our team and the rise of women's soccer in this country He's right there with the rest of us who actually were on the pitch As a representation of the rise of the pit well. And yet at the same time, what I loved, what I marvel at still in retrospect today is that Grant was also an investigator. Yes. He was somebody who was because of his love for something, trying to take it seriously, which means reporting on it. You have to, again, tell people that this is great, that the world loves this and that you should care about this thing while also spotlighting its flaws. These are sort of generally seen as two things that would be at odds. But what Grant did after being fired by Sports Illustrated during COVID in 2020, unceremoniously, on my dad, was start an independent podcast and newsletter, which I personally found inspiring. Not least, because what it did was blend onsite coverage at the World Cup, for instance, with actual reporting about the host country, as with his scrutiny of the human rights scandals, plural, in Qatar in 2022, which happens to bring me now to the origin story of Grant's friendship with our guest today, CBS Sports Host and soccer commentator, Chris Wittingham. I listen to his podcast every week, and so I reached out to him and I was like, "Hey, you know, I'm available, it's COVID, and I have all the time in the world to edit podcasts, do you need help with that?" He's like, "No, I'm going to try it on my own." And like three days later, he's like, "I need your help with this." And so it began as sort of a non-speaking role, it was just sort of editing the thing, and then he was like, "I want you to just come on, because we do this before the show, why don't you just come on and do it on the show." Hey there, welcome to Football with Grant Wall. Thanks so much for joining me. I am in Qatar doing daily coverage of World Cup 22. Let's bring in Chris Wittingham. How are you, my friend? I am recharging after the World Cup round of 16, and I'm trying to get some rest and get fired up for these quarterfinals, because there are some tasty match-ups on offer here. I am very excited, and I took some time off myself. We had two days here without games after 17 straight days of games, and my body, I think, told me, "Dude, you are not sleeping enough," and it rebelled on me. And so I've had a case of bronchitis this week. I've been to the medical clinic at the Media Center twice now, including today. I'm feeling better today, I basically. And the day after Chris and Grant taped that podcast together, that you just heard, Grant went to go cover a World Cup quarterfinal in Qatar, Netherlands, Argentina. I had sent him several texts saying, "When are we recording? What time? I'm hanging out here in my apartment, whenever you're ready, I'm good to go." And it sort of went on answered for 90 minutes to two hours, and then I actually got a text off someone who works here at MetalLark Media, and they said, "Hey, have you heard anything about Grant?" And I said, "No, no, I haven't heard anything." He goes, "Well, I've heard some things that aren't great." I was like, "What do you mean?" And he describes sort of an idea of a medical event. Grant Wall had collapsed. It turned out, in the press box, near the end of that match, and immediately, as fast as they could, got rushed to the hospital, planting all sorts of seeds of doubt and questions and theories. Because Grant, as you heard earlier, had just been talking about bronchitis and feeling exhausted. And so this was 2022, what if he had COVID? What if that was it? His wife, Celine Gounder, is an epidemiologist, an expert in the pandemic. What if all of this had to do with a COVID vaccine? Multiple people I talked to were wondering at the time if Grant had been poisoned, even by some autocrat, some official who wanted to silence his reporting. They were wondering, allowed if foul play had been involved. We do begin with that breaking news tonight. A mysterious death overseas. American soccer journalist Grant Wall has died while covering the World Cup in Qatar. FIFA released a statement with reaction from President Gianni Infantino. He said, "It is with disbelief and immense sadness that I've been made aware of the passing of renowned sports journalist Grant Wall whilst reporting on a quarter-final match. Only some days ago, Grant was recognized by FIFA and A.I.P.S. for his contribution to reporting on eight consecutive World Cups." The White House Press Secretary calling Wall an inspiration to many. Tennis legend Billie Jean King, U.S. men's soccer player Tyler Adams, and actor Brendan Hunt, also among the latest ping respects. "I'm very fond of Grant, maybe in a teenage or in him covering that. It was a pretty cool thing. I've always kind of watched from a distance. Even when I moved up in the ranks, he kind of went to a different sport and things of that nature over the years. Anytime his name will come up, I always think back to me as a teenager and having Grant in our building down the same age. To tragic losses, unfortunately, to lose someone as great as he was." I was in shock. I remember just being paralyzed for probably about 12 hours, and then you sort of spring into trying to help Selene talk to Selene with any information. I might have his brother Eric as well, but yeah, I just remember being shell-shocked, and also, and this was the thing that I've sort of held on to for a long time, is just one in talk about that game with him? Yeah. The instinct of if there is one person that I wish we could hear from, yes, during this World Cup in the United States. It's Grant. There's so many things that have happened since where me and several of his other mutual friends have gone. I wanted to hear what Grant had to say about this, and obviously, this World Cup is the biggest one by a mile. The end of June, and July can be a really rough period for sports fans with football still a few months away, and basketball and hockey ended. But this year, we're pretty lucky, because not only is there a World Cup, there's a World Cup in our backyard. And so make sure to check out the Athletic Podcast Network to stay up to date on all things related to the World Cup. You can wake up with the totally football show from LA, then dive deep into the biggest talking point of the day with the Athletic FC podcast, and you can watch the T-fo podcast fool around on their daily live streams in the afternoon. All shows are free to watch or listen on your favorite podcast platform. When I say that Grant Wall was the guy who I consider the number one authority on soccer, I don't just mean that journalistically. I also mean that he tried to become the number one authority in the world of soccer via election, which is crazy, but a real thing that happened. He wanted to be via authority of soccer as president of FIFA, which is like, we love doing stupid things seriously on Pablo Toria finds out. Yeah. People with that disillusion with FIFA at the time, there was the awarding of the World Cup hosting rights, which really caught the United States off-gar when it went to Qatar and to Russia as well in 2018. And there were all these things that people thought, man, why isn't there anyone running this organization who seems to like it, who actually wants it to get better to improve that things of fans rather than the sort of internal politics of this place in Switzerland that had very little connection to the world that seemed right. And so set bladder who is the incumbent FIFA president and FIFA president again, the all powerful title, the emperor of world football set bladder kept on running unopposed and amid all of these issues with corruption and the cash for votes scandal in 2010, February 17th, 2011, something that I look back on and I can't help but laugh. World Soccer fans can't stand set bladder and why is he running again? So I decided, if three FIFA presidents had been sports journalists, then I can run for FIFA president too. I'm convinced that if the World Soccer fans got to vote, I would be set bladder and a landslide. I just need one country's federation to eat the popular meal and nominate me by the April 1st deadline. Vote Grant Wall for FIFA President, the People's Choice. My name is Grant Wall and you better believe I have proved this message. If you want to know why people were theorizing that Grant Wall's death may have come at the hands of enemies of his approach to journalism, this part of Grant's career is one reason why, because Grant would not only not shut up, his actual platform was more than just better referees than instant replay. It was about transparency. And how, if Grant Wall were to actually be elected by FIFA's voters, its member countries, he would expose corruption. - I'll clean up FIFA the only way possible by releasing all of the internal documents to the public. We're gonna go WikiLeaks on FIFA. - The one thing that I think a lot of people don't understand about FIFA is that it is a one vote per country system. If you've won five World Cups like Brazil, or you basically don't have a football team, like American Samoa, you have the same voting rights. And so you're really just trying to go to one of these smaller territories. Can you buck against the trend and nominate me for president? But it actually sort of works out as the opposite. Those small voting associations, they get the same payout from FIFA that everyone else does. So they are massively less incentivized as having no real power in the world of football to just go with the flow. And let's keep this cash train moving. - Yes, one of the things you learn through Grant's accounting of his campaign is the voters that might seem from afar are ostensibly persuadable are among the least. Because yes, whether you're the US or Dominica, or somewhere in between as he puts it, Sweden, Jilly, Ireland, Israel, none of them had the guts to do it, which of course stuck out at that point to his wife. - He reached out to, there's over 200, a different national federation. So at the time, the rules were you just needed one to nominate you. And he actually got pretty close with some, but in the end could not get a single one. And you know, that was essentially the expose that you could not get even one. That this was how closed the process was. - So the whole thing about this stunt being like wacky and like, here's an American trying to, you know, again, of course an American wants to run the whole thing. Of course. - The actual upshot of this is astounding. 'Cause one of my favorite things in sports that you get to see only, you know, on rare special occasions is someone who's impact on the game ends up forcing a rule change. They were scared of it. I mean, that very clearly indicates we can't let this sort of idea, 'cause it garnered worldwide press. There were people around the world who wanted to talk to Grant. Like, yeah, this is great. Can you do this, please? And they would have been scared that maybe one association does nominate. And maybe, you know, he's able to convince somehow appeal to the hearts and minds of the greater voting public within FIFA and go on a win-the-thing and end this machine that they have rolling at the time. - And instead, what FIFA decided to do is something that he also explained on the Long Form podcast in 2016. - Where it's gonna go from here? My FIFA presidential campaign didn't exactly work out. - Yeah, we didn't talk about that in 2011. - In 2011. - President of FIFA, and again, was sort of pressured. That was before all of these takedown scandals. - Yeah, and it was fun. And I caused him to change their rules where to run for FIFA president, now you literally have to be an insider and have like two of the previous five years in football administration. Which is actually a problem because if you had an outsider, like a Kofi Anon, who I think would be great to take over a new FIFA, according to their rules right now, he cannot run. - Right. - I had a good experience doing it in 2011. It was fun. It got people to thinking, I think, why does no one ever run against this set bladder guy? And really put out some of the honestly common sense issues that needed to be considered about making FIFA cleaner or trying to or getting it a point where it wasn't this kind of joke of an organization. - I mean, the aftermath of Grant's unsuccessful campaign brings us to this sort of buffet of self-dealing and in the eyes of the Justice Department, criminal activity. - Now at 11, FIFA Raid. - They corrupted the business of World Wide Soccer to serve their interests and to enrich themselves. - Leaders of soccer's global governing body accused of tarnishing the sport by taking $150 million in bribes and payoffs. - Seven high-ranking officials of FIFA, soccer's international governing body, were arrested at a five-star hotel in Switzerland. They're among 14 people indicted by US prosecutors. - Yeah, I mean, at that time, Loretta Lynch was in charge of the Justice Department. And I remember these raids that go on in Switzerland where these people are basically chucked out of their beds in the middle of the night and say, you're under arrest under US jurisdiction. It included the takedown of Chuck Blazer who admitted to conspiring with other members of the FIFA executive committee to accept bribes for the hosting rights for the 2010 World Cup, which went to South Africa, including a failed bid for Morocco to host. They will host in 2030, but there are all of these people that were all of a sudden under the purview of the American government never mind the public that thought what's going on within this organization. - Right, it gets to the point where in June 2015, Seth Blatter is forced to resign as FIFA president. - FIFA Chief Seth Blatter has said he's to step down just four days after being reelected to a fifth term at the helm of football's world governing body, which is embroiled in a corruption scandal. The 79-year-old made the announcement during a hastily convened press conference in Zurich, saying that although he decided to stand again because he was convinced it was the best option for football, he added that his mandate does not seem to be supported by everyone in the world. - We've been watching Frequels to the rise of Johnny Infantino. That's the guy who replaces Blatter, the job that I think Grant Wall should have had. Johnny Infantino, one of his aspects of the campaign was I need to sit down with Grant Wall. And so this is February 25, 2016. This is the day before Infantino gets elected president and they meet. - What are the most important parts of your plan as FIFA president? - We have to be very transparent, very open. And for me, the most important part is the transparency on the money flows. If you are transparent and FIFA's nothing to hide on generating money, it's good to FIFA generates money. So where the money comes from and where it goes and if this is transparent, we have solved 95% of the real or perceived problems of FIFA. - Nothing to hide. It's staggering that at the time he was incredibly popular because first off, really his name at the time was not Johnny Infantino, his name was not set Blatter. And people were so excited at this idea and he said all of the right things. That sounds like the kind of FIFA that leads to a better place. - Well, the idea that Johnny Infantino would sit down with the guy in Grant Wall who is not only the number one American soccer journalistic authority but also the guy who was calling for transparency is a recognition that okay, yeah, there are some things I got to change. And so let me go and address this with the guy who is most vociferously calling for it. And again, just yet another tragedy of this is I would love to know what Grant Fix of what Johnny Infantino has become since. - Mr. President, this is your prize. This is your peace prize. There is also a beautiful medal for you that you can wear everywhere you want to go. (laughing) - Right now. - Okay, let me hold a fantastic. - Excellent. - He has world cup to world cup from Russia. I think it was sort of a little bit more tenuous but Qatar he was all in. And obviously he has been completely all in with the president for 2026 as well. He sort of has this way of showing basically this thing is in their hands. And FIFA plays a role but I'm going to completely embrace what whoever's in charge of the country they were going to has to say and wants to do. And it's completely different to what he said he was going to do. - Yeah, when he said quote, "It's good that FIFA generates money." - Yeah, I suppose that part does hold up. (upbeat music) (phone ringing) - And so all of this now takes us back to Qatar and the 2022 world cup where Grant had shown up as an independent journalist and podcaster wanting to cover two huge stories. The first of them having to do with the reported 6,500 migrant workers who died in the country in the decade after Qatar was awarded the world cup. This according to the Guardian. But Grant really wanted to see it for himself. - I'm in Doha, Qatar. And it's several months ahead of the world cup. And I haven't publicized that I'm in Qatar for a reason because I just want to speak to migrant workers. And I want to ask them what their experience is like, how they've been treated by their employers, whether they're actually able to change jobs under the new laws. here in Qatar because we hear a lot from the Qataris and the World Cup Supreme Committee here about all the advances that have taken place and yet there are still reports that things haven't changed that much. So, um, a lot of questions here. I am trying to lay low. I came here by myself. I didn't come with any cameras. I have zero desire to be detained. And to be honest, the Qataris should want independent journalists to come and ask questions and find that what the real story is because that's the only way people are going to believe them. But that story was only one of the two scandals that he was pursuing during that 2022 World Cup. And the second one raised even more questions about who would have wanted Grant Wall silenced. This is the part that has stuck in my brain most vividly because for those not familiar in Qatar, same-sex marriage is not just illegal. There are many reports according to human rights watch of gay citizens being abused, detained. It's among the most dangerous destinations for LGBTQ travelers, according to lots of reporting. In Qatar for the World Cup today, Secretary of State Tony Blinken and avid soccer fans from youth criticized FIFA's decision to threaten World Cup players with yellow cards if they wear one love on bands supporting gay rights. Qatar's laws for big gay relationships. Blinken leading the US delegation spoke out. And into that same setting walks Grant and his notebook. Again, this sort of one of those ways in which you are part journalists and part advocate. He strongly advocated on behalf of the community to be able to freely enter the country and freely enjoy the World Cup as any other person could enjoy the World Cup. Well, it was also fact-checking what Johnny in Fantino had said in public. I've been speaking about this topic with the highest leadership of the country several times, not just once. They have confirmed that I can confer that everyone is welcome. This is a clear FIFA requirement. Everyone has to be welcome. Everyone that comes to Qatar is welcome. Whatever religion, race, sexual orientation, believe she or he has. And so Grant ends up doing interviews. And he tells you Chris, some of what he learned. Yeah, I mean, if you read my website, part of the Qatar Chronicles part two was about what US soccer has been doing to get prepared for coming to Qatar. And they had hired an I interviewed a compliance officer who's lived here for last six years or so, Lisa Saad. And we specifically talked about the rainbow flag. And what about fans or anybody? Visitors here wearing the rainbow flag in a country where same sex relationships are legal. But FIFA and Lisa Saad, by the way, told me like everyone has told me that if you just have a rainbow flag, there is no problem at all. The problem will come if you've had a few drinks and you're making out with your gay partner in public. And then there definitely will be a problem. All of it is to say that Grant makes this conscious decision to pack a particular item of clothing given the reporting he's just done. Yeah, so he packs this black t-shirt with a ring in the middle which has an image of a soccer ball and then a sort of rainbow cascading from it. And so that shirt, I should also call attention to this visually, that shirt did recur. It did make another appearance in my conversation with Celine. I can't help but notice that you are wearing a particular t-shirt that those who are not watching but are merely listening that they may need to be caught up on. Could you explain the shirt that you're wearing? Yeah, so I'm going to top down so you can see a little bit better. It is not the identical one that Grant wore. I actually gave the one Grant wore in Qatar to his brother as a gift. His brother Eric is gay. His brother had experienced harassment and bullying growing up in Kansas City as a gay boy in the 70s and 80s. His brother Eric actually told him not to wear it because he was afraid of what that would mean. Grant wore it anyway. Which was sort of this declaration that football is meant to be inclusive of LGBTQ people as well. And so he wears this shirt to a stadium at the World Cup and they basically prevent him from entering the stadium with the shirt on. I get to the stadium, go through the media, check in. And from the moment I get there, security says, like puts me aside and they're letting other media people go through. They're like, Oh, this is interesting. And then I still wasn't 100% certain it was about the shirt I was wearing. And then a guard said, Your shirt, you have to remove it. And I was like, No, I don't know. I mean, I don't know how many times I said no to these guys. 10, 15, 20. At one point, this security guard is looming over me angrily demanding that I take my shirt off. I was like, No, I will not do that. I knew what my rights were. And as I hear Grant tell you about this at the time, it reminds me like this is, this is in the tradition of his FIFA presidency of his campaign, his stunt. But on some level, when you see the shirt, you are also reminded of how utterly inoffensive it is. Yes. imagery that is so normal, that is so inoffensive. There's no acronym on it. It's just a rating. The other fascinating thing too is Pablo that you're not going to see the amoeia of guitar. The fact that this message would have come from somewhere very high and trickled all the way down the levels to where the security people outside of the stadium are aware to see the shirt that that color pattern was enough to evoke. Oh no, I need to stop this. It's not like I am doing something provocative. I have family members who are gay. I have lots of friends who are gay. And I can't help but think about the gay people who are in guitar and what they have to deal with and fear and jail and what it's like when it's not during the world cup. And if I'm getting treated as a visitor, as an American, as someone who has somewhat significant media following, well, then how are those people being treated? And that's pretty awful to think about. And the other part that was classic Grant Wall was that he used his megaphone to tell the world about all of this. And it made its way back to very notable sports figures like Brianna Scurry. I had just finished reading, you know, how he wore the the target, the rainbow target on his chest. And I just laughed. I'm like, that's Grant. And then like the man has no fear. He just, he just did it. And then so all of that is the pretext. That's the image. Everybody is imagining around the world. The journalist who had been detained when just two weeks after that, he collapsed. And Celine recalled what it was like for her to hear about it. People had tried to resuscitate and perform CPR, but he was quickly taken away by ambulance. And so I figured out which hospital it was called the hospital. They didn't know anything yet. Finally a couple hours, maybe two, three hours later, I get a call from the attending physician in the ER, who said your husband is no more. And that's how I got the news. Yeah. That's more than a clinical diagnosis. That's this oddly translated just like declaration, isn't it? And then that's why I'll never forget the words. There was something just strange about that. It's like not only as he did, he's gone in this whole other way. I got point out Chris, you know, talking to Dr. Celine Gounder who is again an epidemiologist who navigated public health communications during COVID. I mean, she has the ability as she- The first Ebola outbreak as well. Oh my god. Just like her ability to very calmly compartmentalize and explain tragic things affecting lots of people. I was struck by that. And I was also struck by the way in which that scene, that line, your husband is no more. It was just the beginning of the nightmare for her because it is worth remembering that as a perfectly seemingly healthy 49-year-old, there was not just speculation around foul play, but also because of the COVID vaccine. There was now this, this response that was targeting his wife. Yes. Grant had been very supportive and also encouraging others to get their vaccinations. You know, 22, we were still not out of the woods with COVID yet. You had people saying, "Oh, why are all these young people dying suddenly? Must be the COVID vaccines." And they said this about Grant. And the meanness, the cruelty of you killed your husband that I got from people, I mean, I think that just speaks to what their actual incentives are and their values. And I just, you know, I just want to acknowledge how fucked up. Yeah, and how sort of chilling that is. Imagine you're sort of dealing with this unimaginable tragedy. You thought you were going to spend the rest of your life with this person, and then it sort of becomes this political lightning rod, the death of your own husband, that you're still struggling even three and a half years later. Even the way that she was talking there and the way that I have felt at times, recording this episode, it still is incredibly hard to process. When you were talking to her, there's some clips there in the video of the dog running up to her. I was like, "Oh, my God, I haven't seen that dog in four years. That dog used to run up to him and interrupt tapings all the time." And I was like, "Oh, like, the dog's barking in the background. I got to go run and deal with the dog." And it's just, I'm dealing with it still. And the fact that in the process of that, I was reading those replies to her too. Go on, what the hell's wrong with you people? Another way in which this was foreshadowing, just like the darkness that would sort of immerse our country. But what she does, because she is a physician and epidemiologist, and someone who is searching for clarity, for her own sake, and for the sake of quieting this apparent discourse, what she does is she gets an autopsy. She has grant's body examined. And the conclusion, according to what the medical examiner found, after a very thorough and rigorous examination, is something called an ascending aortic aneurysm, a blood vessel that carries, you know, oxygenated blood from the heart, it ruptured because it weakened, apparently slowly, and in a way that was undetected over time. And Celine had to, of course, explain that to people. I had some ideas about what it might be, and aortic aneurysms were on the list. There is a list of conditions, pulmonary embolisms are another that can cause sudden death, and otherwise young healthy people. And so, even before they completed the full autopsy, the initial findings, they knew what it was. So, when they gave me that news, it was sort of like, okay, that makes sense, makes sense. And the other reason, as it turned out, that having the autopsy was so important is not just conspiracy theories about what he killed, but also conspiracy theories about whether COVID killed him or COVID vaccines, I should say more precisely. And so, being able to put all the different conspiracy theories to rest, having that understanding of what actually happened was an important source of closure. Which means that here we can also say with great certainty that it was not the bronchitis that was mentioned by Grant in that podcast he did with you the day before he died. That wasn't it. It wasn't an assassination. It wasn't some other conspiracy. It was something that was in its own way mundane. And so far as how could you have even guessed that this would be something that Grant was dealing with? And that not everything is a conspiracy. Sometimes things just happen. And because Celine, who was again, so gracious to talk to us for this episode, because she's the number one champion of make sure you get the facts right about what happened to my husband, it also lets us truly celebrate the facts he did get right. As a journalist, which I want to also say, he did tell you about Chris just days before he passed. It's something I felt when I came here in February and talked to migrant workers was that there's a decent chance I might get detained. I got detained today. And you know, and if that happens, then does it help to have 800,000 followers on Twitter? Yeah, better believe it. But also it helps to be a journalist with the US passport. And I knew coming here that I had that behind me. And so even if I had gotten detained, I was like, I made the calculation of you're doing the right thing. I just think it's really important to be on the right side of history with all this stuff. I often feel like we're living in a documentary, whether we know it or not. And it's important to be the good guys in the documentary. It is another thing though to, as Grant did, actually go to the places and report the things so that people know what the difference between truth and disinformation looks like. And to use whatever influence and power and he sort of mentioned the things that are in his favor, he's a white guy, he's an American journalist, he has all these things and he can get into his megaphone to the world to incredibly important people, messages that are worth hearing. There are plenty of people who have accrued that level of following and use it to talk about far more trivial things. And I'm not necessarily saying that everyone who gets into this has to be outspoken about governments and not spoken about governing bodies. I'm not like holding everyone to that standard. I don't hold myself to that standard. I don't have the gumption that he has. But when you do, it's incredibly powerful and it can do a lot of good for a lot of people. And I also just need to acknowledge to Chris that you're doing us a real service here by remembering your friend. Yeah, I mean, it's not a service to you. It's a service to him really and to his family and a legacy that is worth remembering. And yet, before we let you go here, there is one thing we did not prepare you for, but you happened to allude to it earlier. And there is one more member of Grant and Celine's family that I think you and also the rest of the United States should become reacquainted with. Well, this little guy who's sitting next to me, do you want to come and say hi? So this is Zizu. And you can see what he's wearing. If we can see in the camera this way. Yeah, there we go. Yes. This is Zizu. He's wearing the number 10. And Zizu is named after Zenedin Zedans. Zizu is his nickname. So soccer was a big thing in our house, as you can see. The French national team kit that Zizu was wearing is, of course, a very particular reference to yes, this legendary, I mean, all-time great iconic player in Zedan, but also worn by an iconic dog. Do I recall from Grant's Twitter feed, actually, an Instagram account? And it's what an honor for me to meet Zizu at the end here. Yeah, you know, and that was Grant's first big story. Was the 90, like, soccer story was the 98 World Cup. So that story, that team also was really important and formative in his career. Well, it was France winning the World Cup in France. And it sounds like what I'm fighting out at the end here is that while the editors of Sports Illustrated did not want to put that on the cover of their magazine, Grant found a way to commemorate this. Yes. With your dog. I heard dog. Who lives on? Zizu, what a legend. A legend. And noted listeners of the podcasts will know that he made several contributions to the podcast through barking in the background of interviews with soccer luminaries because that dog was vocal. I actually now kind of feel bad of the number of times that I edited him out of the podcast. Well, what I'm also finding out here at the end then is that Chris Whittingham did in fact silence. Zizu wall. I am the the dark hand. That you know, a conspiracy, a conspiracy to hold down the dog. It rears its head despite our best efforts. Chris Whittingham in honor of of I guess Mike Dicke who had the cover of SI instead of Zizu. I hope at one point you can break out a cigar of your own and remember Grant Wall's coaching tree has resulted in something special. We all stand on the shoulders of giants and he was definitely one of them and I miss him a lot every day. And it was it was nice to talk about him. Thank you Pablo. Thanks for doing it. Publatory finds out is produced by Walter Averoma, Maxwell Carney, Ryan Cortez, Juan Galindo, Patrick Kim, Neely Lomon, Rob Cray, Matt Sullivan, Claire Taylor, and Chris Tumanello. Studio engineering by R.D. Systems, sound designed by Andrew Bursick, digital strategy by Bailey Carlin and Andrew Northearn, theme song as always by John Bravo. We'll talk to you next time.