Speaker 1Hello and welcome to the How Not To Screw Up Your Kids podcast, the deeper dive episodes designed to unpick a thorny topic so you can take away manageable actions which you can implement today. I'm your host Dr Mary Hant, psychologist and parenting expert. So, pour yourself a cuppa, find a comfy seat and enjoy the conversation because today's episode is a topical one for sure. I'm going to tackle the currently topical subject of the manosphere which has been brought to the forefront of our attentions again, not that it actually went anywhere after we all watched adolescence and were concerned in terms of raising our boys but I guess we were just juggling all the other parenting challenges that we had. Well, it's come to the forefront of our attention and it's come to the forefront of our attention and it's come to the forefront of our attention. So, let's get started. Again, by the recent Louis Thoreau documentary on the manosphere and his interviews with various different influencers. So, we're going to tackle that subject and what it means for us as parents in terms of raising our sons and our boys, our nephews and so I thought probably it's worthwhile just starting with this. We've become quite accustomed to this word manosphere but what does it actually mean? So, I've taken a direct quote here from online but it's particularly useful in terms of explaining it. So, the manosphere is a varied collection of either websites, blogs, online forums or basically doctrines from key influencers that promote masculinity, not in a positive way, misogyny and opposition to feminism. Now, communities within the manosphere can include, this is not exhaustive, but can include men's rights activism, the MRAs, incels, involuntary celibates, which we became more familiar with when we watched adolescence, men going their own way, pick-up artists and fathers' rights groups. Now, while the specifics of each of those groups' beliefs sometimes conflict, they are generally united in the belief that society is biased against men due to the influence of feminism and that feminism is biased against men due to the influence of feminism. So, I've taken a direct feminists promote misandry which is the hatred of men so of acceptance of these ideas is described as taking the red pill which is a metaphor borrowed from the film the matrix if you have seen that so fund you know to encapsulate it all when we think about the manosphere it is a series of online forums and influencers that you that are united by the belief that men are oppressed by feminism and that modern society is inherently anti-male so this is the context with when with which we have this and i guess what i'd like to do within this episode is just a little bit more context and then i want to consider five things that we can be doing as parents as aunts or uncles that can help support raising our boys when we are aware that this manosphere is in that background in terms of the manosphere and that we can be doing that in terms of the manosphere and that we can be doing that in terms of the manosphere and that we can be doing that in terms of the manosphere and that we can be doing that in terms of the manosphere and that we can be doing that in terms of them growing up and i think one of the things that i would say and this isn't just specific to boys and sons and the manosphere but is specific to any aspect where there is something that is particularly controversial or topical that exists in our children's lives where there is a void as in where we are not having conversations and there's a big gap in information children will always look for that void to be filled and looking for answers so it's really important when we think about this for our boys is that we communicate regularly so that we can handle the topic head-on rather than shying away from it i will give you some really grounded ways of approaching this but i just want us to think about this it's the same if we're talking about drugs if we're talking about alcohol if we're talking about pornography when we say nothing on the assumption of either we don't really have the belief that this isn't impacting my child in any way what then happens is our children look to find the answers elsewhere so that's why i think at the forefront of what i would like you to be thinking about is how can i begin to create opportunities and an environment within the house where we can talk and communicate regularly around that so so that's the first thing i would say the second thing i would say is that and i know for depending on how old you are and how old your children are it's probably there's a difference in terms of the span that i'm asking you to try and reflect back on but try to remember what it was like for you in those years and when you were aware of others and you compared yourself and you were trying to figure out how you stacked against stacked up against others and it's a truly difficult time and in lots of ways no different to when we were younger except and the crucial part here in terms of navigating anything controversial and and challenging is that our children are bombarded with information particularly online which is something that we never had to navigate so we still would have gone through periods of time where we would have questioned ourselves what does it mean to be female what does it mean to be male what do i need to be to be masculine all of these questions you would have been asking yourself when you were younger the difference is our children are still asking those questions or maybe not yet asking those questions but online they're being bombarded and if your child is not being bombarded with it online then friends of theirs will be being bombarded with it online and they will be bringing that belief system with them to school to play dates to football club to musical theater to whatever your son is doing and so we can't be part of this filling the void because we believe we've done everything within our home to sort of safeguard that without having those open communication and recently research by the university of dublin has shown that if you have an online application simply by ticking that you are male when you set up whatever platform it is that you're using you are shown extremist content even if you have only clicked once and even momentarily remember the algorithms work in such a way that if you have engaged in content an engagement can sometimes be deemed as five seconds long and if you have engaged in content then you have engaged in five seconds taking your son five seconds to realize oh my goodness me that's not what i was expecting to see when i clicked on that video or that content but once they've done that the algorithms then present them with more so it's really crucial that we're having these conversations so here are my top five tips the first one is don't panic now this is not me trying to diminish a very real problem we really do have a very real problem but it's more about not creating fear which then fuels a response from us in such a way that doesn't then serve our children because if we if we kind of panic about this oh my goodness me what's happening to my son what all of the things awful things are going to happen the likelihood is we're probably going to approach it in a slightly sledgehammer kind of way so absolutely it's out there absolutely there are issues and challenges i just believe in a more measured in intentional approach because what we the last thing we want to do is create a scenario where our sons our nephews then close up and then will not engage with us in terms of having conversations it's difficult enough as it is having our children open up and having conversations with us if we take a sledgehammer to it we could potentially create more issues than not and obviously you know i would also say that the content of the documentary that louis throw is is clearly very thorough and very well well produced yet i would also remind you that it was made for television and therefore we have to be measured in our response to these things rather than anything else i want us to be informed and i want us to accept that we're going to be playing a bit of a long game with this so that would be the first thing that i would say the second thing and i guess both of these are sort of like warning things that i would say is that in the same way as i would say to you when we're having the conversation when we're having conversations with our children around drugs vaping smoking alcohol whatever those things are from my similar era the promotion of drugs was simple was if you'll remember the campaign just say no and whilst i can remember that decades after it it didn't really set us up for the conversation of what if i say yes what if i get find myself in a situation where i'm not where i feel that i can't get out of anything but any particular thing so right so it had this very clear you just say no but obviously not everybody does say no and so what i would encourage you against doing is doing the don't you just don't you ever look at those websites don't you ever believe this don't this is atrocious don't because instead what that does is that closes down any conversation if your child if your son has engaged in any of this content maybe they've engaged in it in a way that they feel particularly ashamed about maybe they've engaged with it and they haven't actually understood that there may well be extreme views in there. If we go back to this idea of there being a void, if we've not had conversations with our sons about what does it mean to be masculine? What does it mean to be feminine? What do we mean by body shape and muscle? And what do we mean by wealth generation? And what do we mean by providing for a family? If we're not having those conversations with our sons, then they may well have engaged with some content. And when we say don't, and particularly if they have engaged with it, that can create a certain sense of shame and shame that I'm a bad person because I've engaged in some content that isn't appropriate. And as a result of that, when we adopt this don't perspective, it then gives them very little room to feel that they can have those conversations. So, and I, when we're talking about don't, it's across a whole spectrum of this. So it's not using the don't, but instead we want to discuss the why's but also thinking about it in some ways, one of the, one of the ways that we might typically approach it as a parent. And particularly if we've got, if we're parenting children where we've got both sexes, we've got boys and girls, is that we can often kind of present the argument to our sons as a, you know, would you want another man treating your sister like that or your mother like that? And I think that that, again, can often take a bit of a blunt approach because we're relating it directly just to our family when really the conversation is much more about how might we be respectful of other people's views? How might we choose to treat other people and all females, regardless of just the females within our family? Because it, that broadens it as a, these are the values with which we go about living our lives rather than this is something that is very specific that we do just within our family. So I think just, just be mindful of the don'ts that you might find yourself automatically falling into. Nothing wrong with that, but you know, it's something that we might typically just do, but, but just sort of take a step back. Hence why my first point about not panicking, give yourself time to think about how might we want to address this? What ages are our boys in order to be having these, beginning to have some of these conversations? And what might be the first clear message that we want to set to them about that? Because what we really want to do here is not, is, is to, to also hold that space for us to begin to understand what content our children may well be looking at and how we might best respond to that. So the first is about not panicking. And then the second is about, is not getting into this don'ts and these big generalizations. So those are the first two. The third ones is about building critical skills. So our children and our sons are no different. They are, they are being fed information all the time. They're being fed information through their teachers. They're being fed information through us as parents. They're being fed information through their siblings. They're being fed information through their contemporaries and their peers. They're being fed through information. You name it, everywhere our children, our boys are, they are getting stories. They are getting narratives. And sometimes they can be almost flippant throwaway comments, but this all feeds into going back to that period of time, like pre-teens, tweens, that our boys are trying to work out who am I? What makes me, what is maleness? What is masculinity? How do I see that represented either in my immediate family at home or in my wider family, within my community, within my school, within my contemporaries? And then they're grappling with all of that and how that then feeds into who they are. So when we encourage our sons to build critical thinking skills, we're simply encouraging them to question the validity of any claims, any views, any opinions that they may receive over the period of their lifetime. Now, how true is this information? You know, where does this evidence come from? How does it actually sit with me and my value system? Because when we help our sons build that critical thinking skills, where they make informed decisions through a series of filters, rather than us saying, you don't do this, because they're going to be making these decisions all day and every day in almost every moment. And so it's helping them begin to build those critical thinking skills. And part of that may well be sitting down and having conversations with them. It may not be actually about sitting down and having conversations, but simply when we notice something topical, having a conversation around that. Maybe you've watched the Louis Thoreau together. Maybe you've had conversations around it. If you haven't, then that might be something you want to consider as rather than a watch this, because this is what you mustn't be doing, but more a case of watch this, you know, let's watch this together because it's something that I've heard is it's pertinent to parenting. And I think it's really relevant. To maybe some of the experiences that you have, ask questions around, what do you believe is masculinity? Why are certain things important? What does that mean in terms of responsibilities? So just beginning to use those as part of those conversations. Number four, I think is a really crucial one. It's a recognition that our sons are going to come across some of these extreme views. And so what we want to do is equip our sons with our son to be able to navigate any likely situations. And here, I believe we need to be assumptive rather than maybe they will come across some of this is they are going to. And the question is, have we had conversations and have I helped prepare them for how they might navigate that situation? So they will come across extreme views and it's talking and having those discussions about how they might be able to manage that. And so I think it's a really crucial one. Particularly if it's a friend in a situation that they feel that they have to agree in order to be liked and accepted, or maybe it feels like a very high stakes situation that if they were not to share those views, if they were not to express the same views that something, you know, and don't forget the risks to our young boys is social exclusion and not being accepted. And that is huge. So in the same ways we would equip them if they would find themselves in a situation where they were offered drugs and they felt that they had no other option but to take it. And I know you'll be sitting there going, my children always have options, but let's be real here. Let's be really honest. If they find themselves in a situation where they are with really close friends who express extreme views, how are they going to navigate that? And of course, in an ideal world, we would want our sons to be able to say that view. It goes against every aspect of my value system and my moral fiber. And this is not a place that I want to be in. But of course, we know the reality is that in a lot of situations, our young boys are not even necessarily speaking up for themselves in lower risk situations. So it's about how can they safely extricate themselves from that particular situation if they don't feel confident enough to say, I object to these views because they don't sit comfortably with me. And how might they, once they've come away from that, have a conversation with you, have a conversation with someone that they trust, that they're able to talk through, if you're not that person for them, so that they then feel that they're not isolated and that they are then able to ponder, to contemplate. When we think particularly around situations of any form of extreme views, those who are at most risk are our sons who have got no self-esteem. They're really grappling with who they are. They don't feel particularly confident. Maybe they feel like they're super different to their contemporaries, or maybe they're in a particular year group at a particular school where there's lots of this real alpha males, and they feel that they can't speak up. They can't use their voice. They can't articulate how their views safely. And so when we equip our sons, when we assumptively say, you are going to find yourself in a situation, one day, where you hear some extreme views, and I think it's really worthwhile us talking about how you might be able to navigate that. And whilst we'd love to think that you'd be able to say, actually, this is not okay, we recognize that that won't always be the case. So what are things that you could do safely to remove yourself from that situation? So that, I think, is a really important piece to the jigsaw. And I think the fifth one that I would say is about understanding that these conversations aren't a once and then done. It's not a, you know, let's have a conversation about misogyny and the manosphere, son. And then it's done. These are a series of conversations, evolving conversations, small, bite-sized conversations that are not labored, not long and drawn out, but simply a, I've become aware of this particular aspect called the manosphere. And able to talk to you about. I don't really know a huge amount about it. I'm going to be educating myself and you know we're just picking up on small bits gosh I've just read this that was really interesting about the manners where I hadn't quite appreciated that gosh when I remember when I was younger it's really difficult trying to work out actually I was always a particularly thin and string beanie and I noticed that my friends were really bulking out and I felt like I wasn't really male I felt like I wasn't particularly masculine it's those are the sorts of evolving conversations where we can try and make them natural but not labor the point if our son engages in it absolutely then keep going but if we're not this isn't a subject that we have regularly engaged with or we have a son who tends to be a little bit more keeping things to himself he's not necessarily super chatty about how he feels and the challenges that he's going through then don't expect to go from you know barely saying anything about him to the point where he's not necessarily super chatty about how he feels and the challenges about how they feel and and what they're currently navigating at school to then having in-depth conversations just simply not going to happen so we want to we're committed to this this is a long game that we're playing and it's about picking opportune moments and moments where it doesn't feel overly contrived but can potentially feel part of the conversation what I would add is if you are a single mother parenting sons then you're not going to be able to have a child you have no doubt already got some significant male role models who are part of that now that doesn't mean that we ignore the conversation ourselves I think it's important that we have the conversations as mothers as single mothers or as mothers who co-parent anyway but I do think it's also worth ensuring that those significant male role models are also having those conversations and are highlighting their own experiences of what it meant their journey how they're how they navigated and continue to navigate this notion of masculinity you know if you're co-parenting with a father right now then that's an ongoing challenge that they are going through about what it means to be masculine and the transitions in terms of that so I hope that this is the beginning of several conversations that we have and I think you know whilst we're in this atmosphere is also a really important conversations for us to be having with our daughters too because it's really important that we're having compassionate conversations to our daughters about the challenges and the varying different messages that our sons are receiving because it's all about compassion and young girls because they naturally intellectually and emotionally develop earlier than boys we know that the boys go through puberty and their emotional development is about 18 to 24 months later we want our daughters to be compassionate and to understand that the challenges that our young men are going through so that they can be compassionate allies rather than fueling this sort of disconnect between a them and an us so I hope that I have been able to give you a pragmatic and measured intentional way of approaching this big topical subject which I'm going to be talking about in a moment but I'm going to be talking about a huge number of us as parents really panicking about you know what do we do how do we navigate this with our sons so if you've listened to this and you have found it helpful and you know someone else who is parenting a son then I would love you to consider sharing this episode with them as they will probably find it super helpful too and if you have not yet rated and reviewed this podcast then if you could just spare a moment to do that I would be eternally grateful so we'll see you next time. We can spread the love. So until next time.
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