The Manager's Playbook 026: RUSS - $100M Independent Empire, Master Ownership, Mental Resilience, Fan Engagement & Financial Strategy - The Manager's Playbook

Intro I feel like as an artist, you, you run the risk of being late to your own party when you sit on your music for too long. Yeah, you know, and you run the risk of being late to your own party sonically because now it's been 8 months and you're over the song, even though that might be your biggest song ever. Speaker 2 And you never. Speaker 1 Yeah, and you run the risk of of being late to your own party of a possible connection point via your content. You know, like, if you would have dropped that shit eight months ago, that maybe would have, like, had a way deeper connection with the audience just because of, like, the culture clash, the alignment. Yeah. It's like, you're missing out on shit, bro. Because I'm a firm believer in, like, we're just a vessel. And so if something is coming to me in the studio to, like, be expressed, I know it's just time for that idea to come to life. And if I don't do it, someone else will. Speaker 2 How are you, Sir? Speaker 1 I'm good, man. How are you? Good. Speaker 2 Man, good to see you bro. Good to see you. Appreciate you doing this. Speaker 1 Thanks for having me. Speaker 2 Out the gate, I got to ask you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, first I'm going to ask because I, I feel like this is a true statement. Is he the most successful independent artist of all time? Yeah. I feel like you are arguably the most successful independent artist of all time. And I mean independent in terms of self funded. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 What do you think about that? Speaker 1 I'd say yeah, it's it's be hard to argue not. Speaker 2 OK. And it. Speaker 1 Just depends on what is the like metric we're using as like most successful independent artists of all time plaques money. Speaker 2 I would say revenue I think is up there. Yeah, plaques as well. I mean, you got 30 platinum records you. Speaker 1 Know. Is that what it's at? Speaker 2 It's AT30I counted yesterday. Yeah. I didn't even count the goal. I didn't count the albums either. Speaker 1 Golly, man. Speaker 2 It's just within your singles. It's 30 platinum. Shit, yeah. And then I mean revenue. I did want to ask you, I mean, you know, because I was doing my research and I started to think to myself, OK, if we are using revenue as a metric for most successful independent artists of all time, have you earned upwards of $100 million? Speaker 1 Yeah, OK, Yeah. What's that feel like? Well, I've spent a lot of it. It feels crazy, man. It's just it, it feels like it was a lot of work with nothing moving and then all of a sudden everything toppled over, you know? And you know, I have a catalog of 500 some songs and I own all of them and a lot of them, 100% are on. Speaker 2 Crazy. Speaker 1 You know, so it's when you look at the master and the puff side, it's crazy. Speaker 2 Yeah, for those who don't know, what does 100% of mean? Speaker 1 Just I own 100% of the song because I produced it myself. There was maybe no samples on it and I wrote it, Yeah. So you look at a song like Ain't Nobody Taking My Baby or What They Want or Handsomer that went platinum in nine months. Like those are songs like I produced. There was no sample. I wrote it. I mixed it. I mastered it. I engineered it 100%. Speaker 2 That's incredible. And so, I mean, now this is you say that you spend a lot of money, but I think you do have to spend a lot of money, Yeah, to fund a career, like, a lot of times, right? I mean, you just also put out a trailer, which is fire, by the way. Thank you for the new album. And you also got a date for it now. Speaker 1 Yeah, June 27th. Speaker 2 June 20. I'm curious, why did you hold off on the date? Speaker 1 I was trying to map out the honest answer is like, I was like, all right, let me try to wait as long as possible to make sure Taylor Swift is not dropping on the date. That's amazing. Yeah. I was like, let me just hold off because I want to try to compete for a #1 but I think Lord is dropping on the 27th, so she'll probably get it for sure. Keeping the goal a priority But we're going to try. OK, OK. Speaker 2 So how are you having those conversations? How are you you calling people to see who's dropping and what not? Speaker 1 Yeah, like when we do meetings with like Meta and fucking TikTok and I'm like, yo, who's dropping? And they like can't super say, but you know, people talk. Speaker 2 Yeah, they let you know. Yeah, you're competing for that number one spot. Speaker 1 Yeah, but like, not from a place where I'm making the goal an enemy. That's what I used to do. And that's when when I wouldn't reach the goal, then I made an enemy out of the goal and it like caused me to go into not a spiral, but like it just really like upset me or pissed me off or whatever. It's like it's fun to have goals, but I don't want to make it an enemy for sure you. Speaker 2 Know, but let's talk about that a little bit more because in your book it was you all along to talk about that a lot. Light vs Dark Motivation Light motivation versus dark motivation. Speaker 1 Yeah, man, when I was younger, like, and this is the thing, it's like dark motivation. First of all, this concept was given to me by my therapist, right? And light motivation is, is being, is operating from a place of like love and honoring my gift of creativity and in my genuine adoration for connection and, and those kind of energies, dark motivation is like, fuck you. I'm going to prove that I'm better than you. And I need this for validation. And, and you know, oh, like that shit can work to a certain extent. It's just not sustainable and it's no way to live. And, you know, I think a lot of people, they're always like, well, that was Kobe shit. That was Michael Jordan shit. It's like they were athletes. Speaker 2 Right, right. You know what I'm saying. It's definitive. Speaker 1 There was a forum for where and when they would activate that mindset. You know, like as an artist, your life is spent off the court, you know what I'm saying? So like, you can't be moving around like that forever. Like I said, you can do it. And I was using that shit for like a little bit, but you're going to end up just fucking burning out, bro. Like that, constantly feeling like you need some sort of like problem or negative motivator. Like you need to create chips your shoulder. Yeah, nuts. Speaker 2 It is, you know what you were asking me off camera, like what does it feel like to be like 40 as well? And the other thing that I just thought about when you said that is like I had this thing with Jesse and Byron. They know it's an inside joke, but maybe not anymore, I guess. But but I used to I I said I have a shit list, but anybody can get on my shit list, right? Like it didn't matter. Like if you took my water, like, you know, SNL skill with Drake where they take the water throwing. All right, well, it's a beef thing, you know, like. Speaker 1 Just the littlest thing can get you added. Speaker 2 But just to give me the extra motivation going to sue the the thing. Yeah. So that and that I just got to a point I'm like, this is it's not. Speaker 1 Healthy. No, it's not healthy. And like I said, I understand the people who try to like make the analogy of athletes and sports and like, well, how do you think Tom Brady? And it's like those dudes were playing sports. You know what I mean? There's a. Speaker 2 Win column. There's a lost column. Speaker 1 There's a win, it's finite, you know what I mean? There's a winner and a loser at the end of the game. This is art, bro. It's like there is no winner and loser of shit. And it's like, like I said, we spend so much of our time off the court. We got to figure out how to last mentally, spiritually. Speaker 2 Is that why you were talking about Spotify hiding the numbers? Spotify hiding the numbers Yeah, I think it's, I think it is a disservice to everyone. And I'm not saying that like, you know, Spotify shouldn't like have the numbers, right? Have access to their numbers, obviously, but it's like the artist, if you're signed to a label and Spotify should be the only ones that know the business of the music business, you know what I mean? Like the fans in the public should just know the music will know business. That's for us. This is our business. It's not y'all's business though. It's not the public's business to know about the business of Spotify. Speaker 2 Would it make sense for all artists to have access to like a chart metric, for example, to all the numbers? OK, Because I was thinking about that and I was like, if they did hide the numbers, you know, devil's advocate, do you, you maybe don't do a song a week on SoundCloud, right? Yeah. But if you have access to the numbers right back and then you look Someone Like You is definitely. Speaker 1 Going to go yeah, that's the thing. Like that's what I was saying. Like, I feed into it too because like, I like numbers, but at the same time it's like, you know, I look at Apple and I'm like, man, I don't see any chatter about Apple and like what songs are doing and monthly listeners and you know, you just look at charts, which is fine. But I just think the conversation would shift from numbers to music. And I think that's important. I wish more people talked about music and what they liked about this album or what they didn't like about the album musically. But whenever I see people having debates, it's always just, like, just numbers based. Yeah. And it's like that's only because you have access to the numbers. Speaker 2 Every fan. There's no such thing as like a fan of music. It seems like it's all critics, especially in hip hop. Speaker 1 Right, right. Speaker 2 Everybody has like, Oh well, what did they do first week or whatever? OK, so we kind of move off of it, but just what if you just. Speaker 1 Like it ruins it, bro. I look at it like basketball. It's like just watch people hoop, you know? Like, I don't care that he averages more points or like more, whatever. Like you watch people hoop and there's certain shit that they're doing that doesn't show up in the stack column and you're just like, Nah, he's important. Like a Alex Caruso, You know what I mean? It's like he's nice, but if you were to just look at pure stats, you know, even like a Draymond, he gets a lot of Flack. But like, you watch him play, it's like he's doing a lot of shit that maybe doesn't show up in the stack column, but it's like. Speaker 2 But he's important. Speaker 1 Yeah, before for the fans, who was just like, oh, all I'm looking at is numbers. We just can't even have like, a, a meaningful contextual conversation. You know, there's no depth if you're just going to say, well, that's it, Ladies and gentlemen, this artist is bigger than Beyoncé because they have more monthly listeners. It's like, what are we talking about? Like, what? Crazy. Speaker 2 All right, listen up folks. If you're an artist, manager or promoter listening to this podcast and you're looking to elevate your game, 5483 Entertainment Solutions are the folks you have to call. From Tour Manager, Transportation and security, 5483 ES handles the behind the scenes so you can focus on what you do best being in the spotlight. Now. They work with trusted vendors in every major city, whether it's in LA, Toronto, New York City, London or Paris, any corner of North America and Europe, These are the guys you want in your corner. Listen, this is more than just a pay sponsorship ad for this podcast. This is a shout out to a good friend and a service I personally use many times both in LA and Toronto. 5483 came through for me when I really needed personnel, so I stand behind 5483 and the vendors they work with. These are vetted, professional teams who get the job done. Now with that said, whether you're booking a show, hitting the road, or planning a full tour, their team makes everything smooth, safe and professional. If you want your next performance shooter event to run like a well oiled machine, head over to 5483 es.com, that's 5483es.com and discover how they can bring your vision to life. Professional support for creative people. That's 5483 Entertainment Solutions. Now back to the pod. You had a lot of death in Santiago, man. Yeah. Amazing album. Thank you. I mean, I'm a fan of your catalog. I'm a fan. Honestly, this is an important podcast for me because a lot of what you've talked about in your in prior interviews or conversations or podcasts is so much game. And so, you know, I thought to myself, if there's one artist to have on this podcast who really understands the business and really gets it and can put on their their their business hat, the business mind, the artist mind, it's Russ. Speaker 1 Thank you. Speaker 2 Man, so first and foremost, I just want to say thank you for doing this right. But aside from that, like the music stuff, I've just been a fan from from time. Yeah. Yeah. I I discovered you with what they want. Yeah. And then around the time the bidding war started happening for Jesse. Jesse Bidding War Yeah, it was right around that that I feel like me and Jesse kind of blew up roughly around the same time. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. You're in the same class. Yeah, exactly. For sure. And I knew you were lit because when we met at Quad Studios, this is how I knew you were the man. Oh man. Speaker 1 This guy's a motherfucker. This is awful. I'm sure this is it all. No, no, no, no, not at all. Not at all. But. Speaker 2 Before we met at class studios, we were there. Bugis was there a couple of earlier homies. Yeah. But we got there at like that was after a listening party or a listening session in New York for Jesse. So we got at the studio at like 1030 PM 11:00 PM You guys didn't start making a record, which that turned out to be basement. Yeah, until 4:00 AM, God leave. But but because for five hours we were just. Speaker 1 Talking shop, yeah. And that's so important though, yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 And you were just like, but you were like very analytical of the business and just, you have so much game. I'm like this. I'm like, This is why this guy's going to win. Yeah. You know, And I thought about that and just being like, oh, man, he's so critical of the game. Where does that all come from? Speaker 1 Just genuinely caring, you know, about about the game that I'm in. It's like I, I have to care about my shit. No one's going to care about my shit more than me, you know, I don't want to get fucked. I don't want to get screwed. I want to know what's going on with splits. I want to know what's going on with everything, bro. It's like, you know, and if I don't have, I don't have the answers to everything, you know, If I don't have the answer, though, I have somebody in my phone who does. And so I'll call and ask, you know, So a lot of people just think like I walked in with all this knowledge. No, I just asked so many fucking questions or I was, you know, watching hella interviews or, you know, if I don't understand something, I'm going to call my lawyer and be like, what is this? Even if there's no contract on the table, I'm just like, I might have seen an interview with you talk about something and I'm like, what does that even mean? I'll just call my lawyer and ask or call my business manager. Call my manager. Speaker 2 Curious. Speaker 1 Yeah. I just want to know what's going on. Yeah, Yeah. Speaker 2 At all times, yeah, super important have to. So let's talk about that. Yeah, in terms of, you know, because there's a lot of artists who watch this podcast, there's a lot of managers up and coming aspiring who are trying to get into the business, you know, in 2025. Advice for artists trying to break into the business Yeah. What advice would you give to an artist who is trying to break into this game? Speaker 1 It's crazy bro, It's a different landscape now I think there's no way around it. It's a visual dominated landscape right now. You need visuals and I don't think that that means they need to be these crispy fucking like over produced visuals, But you better get out that iPhone and go crazy. You know, at least you know. So I think, I think a song a month with a with, you know, a gang of visuals to accompany it is the wave and then move on song a month. Speaker 2 And then move on. Speaker 1 Move on song a month though, and have an album in the tuck. A lot of artists don't move prepared, you know what I mean? And what I mean by that is like when I decided I was going to do a song a week, I didn't drop the first one till I had 26 songs done and an album, you know, because I was moving like I knew I was going to blow up. So whenever one of these takes off, or two or three or four of them takes off and I finally blow up and I have enough of a fan base who would give a fuck enough about me to check out an album, I'm not going to have to, like, scramble and lose the momentum that I just gained because I got to go now. Make the debut. Yeah, I'm sitting on the debut. Speaker 2 You're sitting on the debut. Speaker 1 You know, so I think artists like you have to be patient in order to be consistent. So you might have to take six months off from dropping to go make a gang of music and have a project you're sitting on. Even if the project is just like a rough 810 song thing but you know, have 12 songs in the stash and have A10 song album sitting there and then move. Speaker 2 You know what's super important about that as well? Not getting precious about the music that you have in the stash? Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 Because a lot of people will put that music away and be like, and then come back around. So it's like, I could beat this. Speaker 1 But see, but that's OK, because guess what, if you have, if you're sitting on 12 songs and then you're sitting on A10 Song Project, right? What that does is it allows you to record while you're dropping these 12. And guess what, if you're making some shit and you're like, this is way better than this shit on the album, swap it. So now that song that's on the album gets replaced with this one, and that song on the album now just goes to the like being dropped pile smart. You know, that's what I was doing. I was just like, I had an album that ended up becoming there's really a wolf, but I was making shit the whole time that would just end up getting swapped. So like the whole first draft of there's really a Wolf, like ended up coming out right on SoundCloud. You see what I'm saying? Because I was recording the whole time swapping. Speaker 2 OK, that makes sense. Speaker 1 The only one that I sat on and refused to drop was Cherry Hill. OK. Like, I had Cherry Hill for three years. Banger. Yeah, Thank you. But that one, like, that one was on the album, and I refused to drop it because I was like, Nah, like this is. Yeah. But what's crazy is like, I didn't feel that way about losing control. OK, See what I'm saying? Like that's why I was to think about, like I didn't think losing control of what they want, pull the trigger and do it myself, which ended up being like the four singles off of There's Really a Wolf. I didn't think that those four were needed to be on the album. Those were in the drop pile, which is like nuts. Speaker 2 Important to note because you got a feeling about these records but you never know. Speaker 1 You never know. You never know. And you know, back then I thought everything I was doing was a smash. So I was like, how do you even tell? But yeah, I think it's, it's important to be prepared. I see too many artists scramble, you know, they get, yeah, they get fucking overwhelmed by, by their own situation. They might drop 2 songs, 3 songs and there's some buzz going on and people are calling it. And now they're all like, they're all out of source because they got nothing left to drop. You don't even have enough music to create a fan base. You know, like you need a gang of music to even create a fan base. Speaker 2 It's for context. I mean, you drop 11 projects in the span of three years. Dropping 11 projects in 3 years Yeah, 2011 and 2014. Yeah, you then. I mean, you tell us. You tell. Speaker 1 It yeah, I mean, God, bro, I kind of hit the ground running when I think back on it, it's like God, wait, man. Almost had a lot to say. But yeah, December 2011 was the first project and then like between then it was really like 2 years, like cuz then 2012 to 2014 it was 10 more and then then it was a song a week for 2 1/2 years, something like that. Yeah. So it's like I'm going into the debut with, you know, 200 songs out. Wow. Like the debut album is is like 200 songs later, you know, And so wow, yeah. It's like I was prepared for this shit. You know, I was prepared and ready to have a fan base because as soon as the songs blew up, I think why it went so big so fast where like, you know, by my second album, I'm selling out Staples Center is because. The shit blew up and people have 200 songs, so even if you only like 20 of them, you if if you can name an artist that you love, 20 songs of theirs, you're a huge fan. 20 songs that you love. That's a lot. Speaker 2 I, I, I think of that in terms of like there's three stories that every artist is telling the audience. So there's a Sonic story, obviously the music, there's the visual story, the content, the videos, and then there's the story of whether the audience should trust you as an artist or not that they're going to be there for them in their life. Wow. So for you, wow. It was like you were constantly delivering to the audience. And it's now reaffirming to the audience. He gets what I'm going through. He can say things that I'm thinking about but don't know how to say, and I can I can bet that he's going to be here next week and next month and next. Speaker 1 Week yeah yeah yeah because he's. Speaker 2 Consistently delivering and that's what makes the fan connect with the art that's. Speaker 1 Real, bro. Wow. I never looked at it like that. That's real. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2 I think it's I think that's one of those things and I think a lot of people are missing that component. Listen, one thing that gets me hyped about the music business is when artists figure out how to capitalize on marketing moments by supporting them with great strategy. For example, artist Johnny 2 Phones had a major moment when the New York Yankees played his song in the stadium to open up the 2025 season. And instead of wasting it, he had his Forever Fan link posted so thousands of people who had never heard of him could go down his funnel and become real fans. Now, if you never heard of Forever Fan, that's OK. I'm going to tell you what it is. It's a platform built for music artists to host their website, text their fans, and e-mail them all in one place. On top of that, there's tools to make sure you properly engage with your fans so you can make even more money when you launch direct to fan campaigns or when you want to do something unique. Like when artist Erica Mason used Forever Fan to gamify her tour. She asked fans to vote on which cities her tour should go to and offered additional awards to the fans in the top voting cities. To make it even sweeter, artist today are moving differently and in a new era, we require new tools. It's not enough to just gain casual fans, you need Forever fans. Get started by building your Forever fan base today at Forever Fan music.com. Now back to the pod. Speaker 1 I feel like as an artist, you, you run the risk of being late to your own party when you sit on your music for too long, you know, and you run the risk of being late to your own party sonically because now it's been 8 months and you're over the song, even though that might be your biggest song ever. Speaker 2 And you know, yeah. Speaker 1 And you run the risk of of being late to your own party of a possible connection point via your content. You know, like if you would have dropped that shit eight months ago, that may be would have like had a way deeper connection with the audience just because of like the culture clash, the alignment. Yeah. It's like you're missing out on shit, bro. Because I'm a firm believer in like, we're just a vessel. And so if something is coming to me in the studio to like be expressed, I know it's just time for that idea to come to life. And if I don't do it, someone else will. And I'm going to miss out on on being able to be the conduit, you know what I mean? It's. Speaker 2 Like the first one to speak on. Speaker 1 That yeah, like get that shit out, bro. It's dying to come out. That idea is dying to come out. That's why it came through. Speaker 2 You right and and to that point as well, you tweeted the other day is like keep things up longer than 48. Speaker 1 Oh my God, bro, I'm the worst advocate for this because I do not follow that practice. I fucking no no, but like that's why I tweeted that. Oh, because I'm like note to self because Oh my God, bro, I have more deleted posts than like posts that are out. OK OK but but that's why I need that message because it's like I've seen shit of mine that I posted, it did Jack shit and then two weeks later or a year later it goes dumb the same post from a year ago and it's like whoa bro like what if I would have just deleted that? Speaker 2 When you say post, you mean? Speaker 1 Like a TikTok post. Oh OK, that now makes the sound go dumb. Speaker 2 What's an example of that? Speaker 1 About 3:15. Speaker 2 All right. Speaker 1 Yeah, OK. It's like, imagine if like when I was first posting, I was like, no, I was just whack. Like nothing's working. Just take down all this shit. Speaker 2 Yeah, and that's how you felt when it was? Speaker 1 First, well, I'm sure at some point I did, but I was just like, that was when I was doing song a week again. So doing song a week, it makes me detached from what the song does. Like commercially, I don't have time to care. I got another one coming out next week. It's like this little like trick I play on my own brain. It's like a perfectly curated release strategy for like how I think. Speaker 2 You get yourself more than anybody else like this is how I'm going to be able to move on to. Speaker 1 That, but I didn't even realize that. Like I needed that as a human. I didn't realize that song a week is this pseudo medicine for me to like sort of heal that need for results. You know, it's like if I put out a song this week and it does nothing and I don't have another song coming out for six months, that nothingness that that song did is going to linger and make me feel like, damn, bro, that was a flop. Like that might make me second guess the next one. But if I'm doing song a week, song a week, it's like, fuck, whatever that did, I'm back in the gym, you know what I mean? It's like, on to the next game, you know? And so man, I love song a week. I don't, I don't think, I don't think artists could do it now. I don't think the climate is that. I think I can still do it just because my fans are conditioned for it. But I wouldn't even recommend song a week from people. Speaker 2 I think this, well, Nick D does like, I think a song every two weeks or so. Yeah, that's good. Speaker 1 Something like that. That's like two a month. Two yeah 2 month is like the Max I would do. Speaker 2 Yeah, but he puts a lot of content around it, it seems like, you know what I mean? He's crushing it. Yeah. And I think, you know the Russell somebody that you also. Yeah, you did it. Speaker 1 Crazy hustle, crazy work ethic. Speaker 2 Crazy work ethic. That's the other thing, man, where I'm like in this business, I think like if you're a new artist, a lot of people get it twisted where they say, oh man, if I can just get this music to Russ and he's going to love it, my life is going to change. Speaker 1 Just like then what? Like what would I do for you? Speaker 2 What are you going to do? Speaker 1 It's like, I can't make people like your shit. Speaker 2 Or you can't make them like yeah, like they still got to do the work. Speaker 1 Yeah, I can give you 100 grand. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 Right now you don't even know what to do with it, right? And it's also like 100 grand is not going to make you be a superstar. You know how many superstars we would have if that's all it took was 100. Speaker 2 Grand. Yeah, if you had the exact. That's the formula. Speaker 1 I mean like, OK. Speaker 2 But let's say that OK, but let's just argument's sake, brand new artists or even 10 grand or 1K. Building a studio Where do you how do they put that money to work? Because I don't back then. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 You and Bugis, you guys spent 5K to build out the studio? Speaker 1 Yeah, right. Yeah. Speaker 2 And an amazing thing that you talk about. Speaker 1 That was like 2500. Speaker 2 Yeah, What's that? It was like 20. Speaker 1 Five. It was like 2500. Yeah, OK there. Speaker 2 You go right. And it was a simple set up just to record. Yeah, but you own the means of operation, right? That's. Speaker 1 Mandatory, right? If you're an artist and you don't have the studio and the house, you are bullshitting straight up, straight up like what? You can't even get in as many reps as I can, you know, and you don't need a crazy expensive, you don't even need that set up, you know, like. Speaker 2 What does an artist need today? Speaker 1 You need a mic? Your fucking laptop. You don't even need speakers though. Like when I record in hotel rooms, I don't even use speakers. I don't have a mic stand. I hold the mic. I got the audio interface and I got my laptop. That's it. I made Ain't Nobody Taking My Baby like That platinum crazy in a hotel room in Toronto. Having a studio in the house I love your affinity for Toronto, Sir. Yes, yes, yes. City. Yeah. Man, I love. I mean, you work with a lot of people from Toronto. From. Yeah, you know, Aaron Paris. Yeah. Brilliant. Speaker 1 He just scored the trailer. Speaker 2 Oh, of course he did. Yeah. Speaker 1 Shut out. He's a genius. Speaker 2 He's a genius. Strings from Paris. Yeah. Did you have him on tour? Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's great. I remember seeing him on Instagram when he had like 10,000. Speaker 1 Followers. That's how I found him. Speaker 2 Doing the. Speaker 1 Videos nut case in his room playing every instrument. Every instrument. You're an alien. Where are you at? Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. And then I know you know boy wonder. Of course, Jesse. Yeah, I saw. I mean, you had Justin Mazuka on on. Speaker 1 Justin Mazuka. Speaker 2 Yeah, he's dope. I just had I just had coffee with his brother like 2 months. Speaker 1 Ago, George. Yeah, it's cool, man. Yeah, yeah, Justin's crazy talented, but yeah, bro, it's like you got to have the studio in the house, at least you got to have some set up. They can be janky, but you got to be able to get the reps in, you know, there's no way around that. Speaker 2 Now if there's and if somebody does have a budget of let's say $10,000, what do we so obviously own the means of the operation for the studio? Speaker 1 10 grand we're going to assume like you have other ways to pay your bills outside of this 10 grand because for some people it's like dog put that 10 grand towards your life so you have Peace of Mind. Fair enough. So you can create from a like clear headed, you know what I mean? But let's just assume, like, this is just some extra shit. I don't super believe in ads like that just because I think that ads only work if it's a moving train, you know, meaning, like, if you have something that is organically moving and then you spend some money on it, Correct? Yeah. But like, you can't believe me, I've spent far more than 10 grand on ads for a song that wasn't organically moving and it didn't make it no, because people didn't like the song like that, you know what I'm saying? So with 10 grand for a new artist, I would say put that towards visuals. I would say try to, you know, get your, like I said, song a month with visuals. And if you got 10 grand, try to get some crispy shot for a rack, you know, so at least you got 10 songs with 10 visuals, right? You got 10 months figured out. Hopefully by that 10 months is up your your music is generating a little something, you know, here's the disclaimer. The music has to be great. That's the shit that like nobody like. Speaker 2 People talk about your story, Yeah. And they're like. Speaker 1 Yeah, but it's like I, I had resisted for years saying that because it's because it feels mean, you know what I mean? But it's like for me, right? 99% of the time why artists are not blowing up, it's the music is not good enough. That's the harsh reality. That's just the truth. And the issue is, and I get it, no artist ever thinks it's the music. You know, and I can I can say confidently my first 11 projects the music was not good enough until like Color Blind Pink Elephants. So like project 9 and 10 before then it was literally not good enough. This is me saying it at the time, I thought it was. Of course you couldn't tell me it wasn't. I thought that was the greatest shit ever. But deep down, I kind of knew. You knew. Yeah, Because I would play, like my first project. And I was, you know, so zoomed in on it like, this is the hardest shit ever. And then I would go listen to the marathon or, like, take care. And I was like. Speaker 2 What is it? Speaker 1 This sounds really good. This sounds a lot better than my shit. And so like, you know, I had to just convince myself that's all good. Like I'm on my way though. Like I know I'm dope, like, you know, just hype yourself up. But the music has to be great. And a lot of a lot of people shit is not great. And that is the reality and it sucks. It's a shitty thing. Like you love music, you want to do it, but if it's not good enough, it doesn't matter how much work you're putting in. I think we got to stop with that shit. This whole like, oh if you just work hard you'll make it. No you won't. It's not true. Sometimes your shit isn't good. I know people who have put out 1000 songs and they are all ass and so that person is not anywhere. Speaker 2 They're not being real. Speaker 1 With the he's worked harder than me, you know what I mean? So I think Gary Vee has this amazing, like it's like a random YouTube video I saw like years ago, somebody came up to him and was like trying to be a YouTube and they had asked him like, you know, I've put out 130 videos or 200 videos, whatever it was, and I'm not seeing any results. And I thought his advice to that person was so good. He said, I'm going to tell you something that I, I'm paraphrasing. I'm going to tell you something that I don't usually tell people, but you need to switch it up. You clearly have enough product out there that has given you enough research to let you know you're doing something wrong. You know what I mean? And for me, it just rang so true. Like, I don't know, maybe that person just needs to make different videos, or maybe they don't need to be doing that career at all. But I know for me, when I put out 11 projects and there was no results, I knew innately that I was doing something wrong because I really believed the music was good enough. So I was like, all right, well, I'm doing something wrong with the approach. Then with the release, which is what led to the song A week. Speaker 2 It was just a stepping stone for you, right? Because you have the research, but you're actually looking. It's like, OK, why? You're not trying to fool yourself. No, But you're sitting here being like, I know the music is good. It's not great. It's not connecting. Why? Right. Trying to figure this out. Yeah. Speaker 1 And I also think, you know, we got to stop with this. Like if you don't make $1,000,000 a year off your music, you're not successful. Like bro, if you're like, it's too black and white. Artists need to be cool with like I'm not saying they're not, but there needs to be more information out there and more sort of reassurance that hey bro, you can make 70 grand in the year and that's awesome you made it. Like if you're paying your bills off of music, you made it. Speaker 2 100%. Speaker 1 Simple as that. I don't give a fuck what anyone says, you know? And I feel like that should be considered a win too. Speaker 2 No, that's a fact. Speaker 1 It can't just be a win if I'm charting on billboard or if I'm like selling out show. Speaker 2 Only so many spots for that. Speaker 1 Yeah, bro, it's like, Nah, man. Like not everyone. There's people who play basketball professionally who make 60 grand a year. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 That's lit though. Not everyone's going to make 40 mil a year, you know? And I know for me, like when I was coming up, like I was not ever gone for that. I'm like, Nah, I need to make fucking, you know, because I had big dreams and big goals. But as I've gotten older, I just realized that like bro, it's not going to pan out like this for everyone. But you can't feel like a loser and a failure if like, yeah, I mean, I pay my bills off of music, but like I've never charted on Billboard and it so like, yeah, I'm just a failure. You know, it's like you got to you got to change your metric of what success is. You know, like you get to wake up and make songs and put them out and you don't have to go get a job. Like that's a win. And honestly, even if you're not able to pay your bills off of music, but you have a situation where you're able to express yourself freely, you know, like, maybe that's a win for you, too. Yeah. You know, it can't just be this like, really toxic culture of like, you don't have $1,000,000. You're a fucking loser. It's like, well, God, leave. Speaker 2 Man, yeah, the material. Speaker 1 Side, but it's it's brutal, yeah. Speaker 2 But you used to have that conversation with yourself, right? What, what whereas like if you're not, if I don't have the Hot 100, if I don't have the money. So you're, you're coming from an experience. Speaker 1 Yeah, because I know what it's like to sort of like I was talking about earlier, making a goal out of your enemy. Yeah. And and I'm desperately needing external validation to the point that all this shit that I've accomplished doesn't mean anything because of the one thing I haven't accomplished. You know why I've never had a Billboard number one song. So really, how how sick is this? You know, like it's like, brother, that's like ridiculous. Or I don't have a Grammy, never even been nominated. So like, I don't know, I just kind of feel like a loser, like, you know, it just makes you, it makes you overlook all the things you've done. It's like that shit is just a it's a recipe for depression, man really is Yeah. To just to just ignore what you've done, not be grateful for it, not be able to self acknowledge, you know, and give yourself recognition. Used to talk about this in in therapy. It's like, why? I think the question was this was like the first session I had like years ago. It was like, why do I need the world to clap for me before I can clap for myself? Speaker 2 That's a bar. Speaker 1 You know, because that was a real thing I struggle with. I still do every now and then. You know, it's like I won't clap for me until the Grammys does. I won't clap for me until Billboard says here's your number one, you know? Oh, I got the number 5 album. Fuck this. Speaker 2 Crazy. Speaker 1 And it's like, I get it because I also, I come from the sports background where it's like, you either won or you're a loser, right? You know what I mean? But that's a really bad spot to be. Speaker 2 As an artist. Speaker 1 As an artist, it's not, it's bro, it's just not fucking healthy. So the the metric for my goal is progress. That's it. Speaker 2 Yeah. And what does that look like? Speaker 1 For sometimes it's not even commercially, it's not even numerically. Sometimes it's like. Speaker 2 Right, that's all I ask. Yeah. Speaker 1 Yeah, sometimes, like it's did I express myself in an even more authentic way this time, You know, like with this album, with Wild, I'm like, this is progress for me because I was able to, I was able to create an album that has the depth of like a Santiago, but it also has the freedom and versatility and and liberation that if there's really a wolf has, you know, that's progress for me because I'm usually very black and white with how I think with my art and everything. And so for me, Wild is this beautiful Gray area where I was able to express all my favorite sides of me as an artist. That's progress, you know, So if the album doesn't chart higher than, you know, Santiago, whatever, it's like, but I made progress artistically. I made progress as a person, you know, and especially like Billboard charts and shit like that. It's so out of your control. Speaker 2 I was like bullshit too. I mean, really. Speaker 1 You could like There's Weeks right where the number one album that week sold 52,000. Speaker 2 Yeah, and it's. Speaker 1 You know what I mean? And it's #1 Then there's weeks where the number seven album sold 52,000. You just picked the wrong week, right? You know what I mean? It's not this like a guaranteed thing where if you sell this amount you will get a number one. Like it depends who's fucking dropping. It depends if there's a tragedy in the world that happened on your day. Speaker 2 Yo, and I'm and I'm and you know this liberal like just keeping it a buck, man. Like there are people who have the relationships with the folks at Billboard and they talk to them and they call them from the major labels and they say, OK, so but if we put together this, that and the third. So remember they took away the bundle stuff. Yeah. And then. Immediately, though, they started. People at the labels were calling their people at Billboard or Illuminate or whatever the hell it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But what if we did it this way? Can we? No, not that way. OK, cool. But what if we did it this way? Yeah, that's acceptable. Yeah. Off to the races. It's just not purely on the album. Speaker 1 No, it's all the loopholes you're trying to find. Speaker 2 Which I thought was like, that was insane. Yeah, they took away. Oh my God, the the. Speaker 1 Craziest shit ever because of incentivizing fans. Speaker 2 That's the major. Speaker 1 It's like so marketing. Speaker 2 So because I marketed the project, yeah, you're taking that away from me, right? Yeah. So it's like, I mean, it's, it's just like a game. It's arbitrary. It's arbitrary. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So it's it's amazing to hear that about the progress because I mean, I love pent up in the penthouse. Speaker 1 Thank you. Yeah. Speaker 2 Hard bars go crazy. Thank you bro. And then there's the one line there off the top. Scared of Success I think it's the chorus where it's just like. Speaker 1 Scared of success once my prefrontal cortex developed. Yes. Yeah. Brutal, bro. I didn't have that fear of being seen when I was younger. I wanted the whole world to see me. Yeah. So I thought. And then I think combination of things happen like yeah, my prefrontal cortex, developing society, the Internet and the industry essentially like punching me in the fucking mouth with all the hate the. Speaker 2 2018. Speaker 1 You know what I mean? Like getting a like a public spanking, you know what I mean? And then just the natural adjustment shock to success. Those three things combine for this heightened sense of paranoia about losing success and or getting more of it and having more attention on me. Because when there's more attention on me, there's more need for perfection. When there's more attention on me, maybe people are going to bring up old interviews and say, no, he's an asshole member, you know, and I'm going to get hit again. It's like scared to get hit again. Speaker 2 OK. Speaker 1 You know what I mean? So it's funny, that's kind of what this album represents. Even with the trailer, it was like, it's me unlocking myself from the cage of my own comfort zone, you know? And and it's like, well, if that case is your comfort zone, why are you in there freaking out? Because that's how fucked my comfort zone is. Is like even my comfort zone is fucking uncomfortable sometimes because I feel like 23 year old me placed 32 year old me in that cage without consulting with 32 year old me if I ever wanted to be in this life. You know? I'm glad I went after this shit when I did because I think I would be too scared of success if I tried to blow up at 32. Speaker 2 Because of everything that you. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 Really. Speaker 1 Yeah, I think there's a certain youthful hubris, you know, that you just have, you know, and just a certain like, I deserve it all. I want the whole world to see me. I want to. You're not even considering, like any pitfalls. There are no cons. You know, when you're on the outside looking in at success and wealth and fame and all your dreams, when you're making your list, your vision board, mom beach house, sold out arena tour, you don't even think it's possible that there's a list of negative things that are going to happen. You're just like, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's all going to be this. That's I don't even know. I'm not even thinking about that. You know, and as you get older and you have experience and you realize that life is duality, it's robust, it's good and bad. Now I look at the next level of success and I'm not so naive in my thinking by saying just like, oh, I know that next level is just going to be all of it, right? What comes with it, You know, Totally. It's like being, it's just being more aware. It's like before I go to this really great next level, what's the trade off? Yeah. Speaker 2 Because there's no solutions in life. Speaker 1 No, so it's like there's trade-offs with everything. It's like what comes with it though. What's the bad before I just sign up for this? Speaker 2 You know, because at least you're ready or you're like, I'm not ready, but like preparing, you know? Speaker 1 And so now what this album really represents too, is this, this sort of understanding and acceptance that I don't know what the bad is going to be and I don't know what the good is going to be. I just know there's going to be both, right? And I have to go out there, leave this cage. I got to go out there into life and press forward and play big because it's too much internal conflict in this cage. I want to stay. I want to leave. I want to stay. I want to leave. I want to. It's too much. I got to get the fuck out of here, you know, and. Speaker 2 Because the swings are crazy in this business. The ups and downs are super. So you got to, you wrote about this too, where ride the wave, right? Because it'll be highs and lows. Speaker 1 Yeah, bro, and it's like you got to have more going on in your life than just this shit. Speaker 2 Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 1 You know, like because this isn't just even about my career, this is about having a better relationship with my mom. What does that look like? You know, instead of being so too like emotionally a mesh where like if she's in a bad mood, then I'm going to, if something's like worrying her, then I'm fucked up. And you know, same with my girl or just anyone around me. I've always been very hyper vigilant where like it's not possible for me to be in a good mood if someone around me that I care about is in a bad mood. That's not healthy though, you know? There needs to be just separation emotionally. Speaker 2 From that from. Speaker 1 Yeah, like, autonomy, emotional sovereignty is the goal, you know, so that's also what this phase of my life is about, is really just coming into my own and stepping into the unknown of all that. Stepping into the unknown of, like, my relationship with myself, with my relationship with my girl, my relationship with my family and with my relationship with success. The unknown of all four of those things is terrifying, and that's why I have to go into it. Finding a Therapist Where did you find your therapist, Connor? Speaker 1 Man, I found him through Doctor Nicole Lapar, like the holistic psychologist on Instagram. I asked her to be my therapist at first sober. Yeah. And she was like, I know someone like perfect for you. OK. Yeah, man, because he's. Speaker 2 Not even a therapist, right or no? Speaker 1 He's not like a licensed therapist. No, he's just, he's just an incredible mentor, but he's like, you know, he's studied under really big therapist and all that, but he's just not a licensed therapist. Just kind of nice, you know, like you just feel like, I don't know, he doesn't therapize you to death. You know what I mean? Like you just just real conversations. And I think, I think young men and men in general are suffering from a lack of mentorship. Mentorship You know, I think I think there used to be importance put on some sort of initiation phase from boyhood to man, you know, and there was a clear line of demarcation of like, you're a man now. And it involved elders, older men that you could lean on and talk to and, you know, that would help guide you through life and all that. And I think now what a lot of dudes are dealing with is I don't know when I became a man, what is it man? What does that even look like? When did it happen? Was it at 22? Was it 20? What was it 18 or was it 30? I don't even know. You just all of a sudden like kind of show up and all these things are expected of you. And but you don't you have no manual, you know? And so that's why it's very important to have older male mentors. I think the one thing the one piece of like real advice I would give to any young dude, artist or not, but definitely artist. Find a older dude who has a shit together who's solid. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 And get a mentor. Yeah, ASAP. Speaker 2 Yeah. What was a mentor look like though? I mean, like in terms of like it does because I think a lot of people think about that as I go. Like do we check in once a week? Yeah. Speaker 1 Check in once a week. OK? Yeah, check in once a week. I do. I send fucking 78 voice memos throughout the week. You know what I mean? Yeah, bro, it's, it has changed my life for the better because, you know, you, you need mentors, man. There's just no way around it. Like, especially dudes, man. Dudes are just suffering out here from lack of community. Speaker 2 It's interesting because I've always thought of mentors in terms of mentoring my career, but only it was through talking to Troy Carter. Yeah, thought about mentors and just life because I always thought about it. I'm similar like you in ways when you know, the younger self and me would be like, I just don't want to be in the situation that I'm in right now. And the only way out of this is bread. Yeah, you know, but I'm going to do it the right way. I'm going to do it the legal way. I'm going to do it like I'm going to grind to get to this money and be successful. And yeah, like, it does solve problems, but it doesn't solve everything. No. And so like, all my mentors were like, about my career and the business. And then I remember talking to Troy and Troy said, no, I have. I go to people for my career. I go to people for family. I go to people for relationship. I was like, damn, I didn't think of it that way. So I get what you're saying. Speaker 1 I think I had to learn that like Strong men have other men in their life that they can ask questions to and get help from. There's a strength in admitting that you need help with stuff. And it's not this like circling the drain. Like you're just like, you can't fucking like you're just this helpless wounded puppy, you know, like I've still been on my shit. My resilience is like my greatest attribute, I think. But along the way it got to a point where I was like, I need help, you know, navigating my internal landscapes, you know, and you get to a point where your parents, like, it's not their job anymore, right? Simple as that. Like. Speaker 2 I mean, you get to a point as well, too, where you, you start to realize that you're, that your parents also have problems. Oh. Speaker 1 For sure. And then and then you have empathy. Speaker 2 Yeah, you. Speaker 1 You go from like anger towards your parents and possibly like resentment to empathy because you realize damn man I look at my dad and my mom I'm like how the fuck did y'all even do it? Speaker 2 That's the same with my. Speaker 1 You know what I mean? Because I'm like now, Grant, they got divorced. But it's like, how'd you even last that long with no resources, no community, no tools, no rubric, no, no one to like, ask questions. I don't know, man, It's, it's crazy. So yeah, it's, I got the point now where I got to father my inner child myself. You know, it's my job. And so I got to make myself feel OK. I got to give myself forgiveness. I need to give myself reassurance that things are going to be OK. I got to, I got to do all that for me now. And yeah, it's a, it's a better experience in life for sure. I. Break Want to take a quick break in the pod right now and talk to you guys about something I think could be of importance to you. If you're listening to this pod and thinking I could really use some personal guidance right now and you're serious about building your career in the music business, I'm now offering one-on-one private strategy sessions. These are fully personalized, just you and me tackling whatever you need in your music career. Listen, this is the part where you might be thinking to yourself, who the heck is this guy? Well, I got over 17 years of experience in the music business. Whether it was working as a manager with artists like Jesse Reyes or working with major record labels like Island Republic, Universal Music Group or Sony, or producing content for high profile artists like The Week and an Eminem to producing content for elite brands like the NBA at night, I can definitely and confidently say I can help you map out your next moves. Whether you want to talk about structuring your team, navigating the industry, scaling your brand, or just simply learning how to make money in this music business. Whatever is most relevant to where you're at, let's talk. You can now book for a fee A1 on one session with me, an artist manager and a podcast host to help you figure out your next steps. Find the link in the description below to book a one-on-one consultation session. Also, big shout out to those who watch this podcast. Bringing value to an audience who seeks it is a blessing. I can't thank you enough for tuning in. I appreciate you. Now let's get back to the pot. I love you boy, it feels like. The Psychedelic Experience Oh yeah, That was a therapy exercise, man. That was, that was him being like, I want you to, you know, you can journal about it. You can write a poem, you can write a song, you can write a lyric. But I want you to write something to your younger self. Speaker 2 What an incredible record to do it on. Speaker 1 Yeah, so that first verse was me talking to like, you know, infant to 5 seven-year old me. And then second verse was me talking to like 21 to 26 year old me. And then the third one was me just like pat myself on the back in general. So it's a powerful record, man. Speaker 2 It is. You did exactly what you needed to do on that record. I mean, like, you hear that song just sonically, the strings, Everything about that is just like, what else is there to do on this? Except. Yeah. Speaker 1 Go there. Yeah, you have to, bro. 3 verses. That's what he does. 3 verses I. Speaker 2 Remember what I was when I heard that I'm being on a plane just traveling and hearing that record. I'm just being like, oh, this is this song is incredible. Yeah. And I connected for me a lot because I similar, you know, a bit of a similar background when it comes to my home life as well. So I was like, Nah, this is this is real shit. Speaker 1 It's it's scary, man, to be honest, because I feel like I need a reintroduction to my audience. That's been the scariest part. OK, because you come in the game being Mr. Manifest, like believe in yourself, stop being a bitch, get over It's all on your head. Which is a very gaslighting title if I might have, but it's a great book. But. Speaker 2 Yeah, it's a good book. Speaker 1 It's a good book, you should. Speaker 2 Read it. You should still read it. It's still a great. Speaker 1 Book No. There's useful tools in there 100. Speaker 2 Percent, 100%. Speaker 1 But I come in the game as that and that's how the world meets me. And then I naturally grow up and there's more depth now. And you know, before I wouldn't even say before I had confidence, I would say I had omnipotence. You know, it wasn't true confidence. It was omnipotence because it was, I know everything. I know how all this is going to go. You can't tell me any different. And if I'm ever feeling not confident about something, I'll drink and I'll come off like I'm confident about it. And so that was my whole career and then and naturally that shit crashed spiritsy for me, you know, and I needed to excavate and get to the root of problems. And you know, that's where we pick up with Santiago. And it's scary for me as an artist because it's like, damn, the dude who wrote the self help book needs help. How am I going to spin this one? You know, how's this going to land? And so I feel like I need to reintroduce myself to my audience, which is what I started to do with Santiago and what I'm continuing to do with Wild, because I think I can actually help foster true confidence now, you know, where it's like acknowledgement above your strengths, acknowledgement of your weaknesses, acknowledgement of your insecurities, and still pressing forward anyway is real. That's real. That's brave, you know, not just fluffy bravery and fluffy confidence, you know that's real. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of that. I've been seeing that a lot. I think the one time that I saw it publicly was on Flagrant to, which is, by the way, if you ever get a chance, go watch that podcast. Andrew Schultz and Akash and the boys. Amazing. Speaker 1 Thank you man. Speaker 2 Great conversation. Speaker 1 That was a scary one too, bro. The Year of Doing Hard Stuff Yeah, that was like, that was my therapist had tasked me with, like, this is the year of doing hard shit. OK, Yeah, you know, and I'm always, I've passed on a lot of big opportunities because they just freaked me out too much. Speaker 2 I would never have guessed that. Speaker 1 Right. So I'm saying, well, because guess what, in the past, when I was 24, they freaked me out too. Doesn't matter. Where's the tequila? I'm good. You know what I mean? I didn't allow myself to be freaked out because I would just use alcohol. I didn't meditate through it. I didn't breathe through it. I had no healthy rituals. I just knew what's the big deal? I'll just drink and I'll be money. I'm across the interview, I'm across to this, I'm across to that. That wasn't real though. That's not real confidence. That's not real bravery. And so it's like I had to make a decision on who I want to be, what I want my life to look like. Do I want to be the artist that has to drink to get through shit? You know, like, what's my body, face, everything, my brain going to look like at 40 if I'm doing that, you know what I mean? So I was like, Nah, bro, I'm not doing that. I have to do all these hard opportunities sober, you know? And that's scary because it comes from a lack of lack of like lack of trust and confidence in my sober self to be as awesome as I want him to be. Because I know drunk me is going to kill it, you know? So you got big shoes to fill because drunk me is awesome. Speaker 2 He's awesome. Speaker 1 You know what I mean? Speaker 2 Smarter. Witty. Speaker 1 Smarter, witty, like, yeah, like always says the right funny shit or whatever, you know? So I'm like, damn, bro, you got some big shoes to fill. So it's scary, you know? But I did a lot of hard shit last year. Meeting Will Smith So I did that interview. I met Will Smith on camera and had a fucking conversation with him for the first time sober, bro. I remember sitting there like fuck bro if there was tequila here I would drink. Speaker 2 It what's the conversation like with your team before you meeting him? Speaker 1 I think I might even ask them, like, yo, is there tequila around? But there wasn't. We just met in this art gallery, like this museum, and I could just hear his voice. They didn't want us to meet prior to filming. They wanted to meet to be on camera. What's? Speaker 2 The deal with that Lex that. Speaker 1 Lex Yeah. They wanted to meet up to be on camera. And so I'm like, Oh my God, dude, I hear this dude's voice. This is Will Smith. Like, what am I doing? Bro? This is crazy and they're going to film a conversation. Everyone be dead quiet. There's 60 people around and y'all are just going to watch me and Will Smith meet for the first time and have a deep conversation within seconds of meeting each other sober. For me, I'm like dog, just shoot me now. Like how is this? You know what I mean bro, Please tell me. He just has like he's got to cancel like last minute. And so I did it though, and I was nervous while we were talking. You can't tell, but it was great. Speaker 2 Yeah, you can't tell. Yeah. Yeah, you settled in. Speaker 1 Yeah, it was like, you know, I can watch it back and say, man, if I was drunk, I would have had way more to contribute. I would have said something funnier here or cooler here or whatever. It's like bro, it was fine. Speaker 2 Yeah, it's totally. And also like talking to Will Smith. Like, I, I know a lot of people, not a lot of people, but few people likes being one of them. Like when you're around him and after it's like he leaves you with so much, like you're pretty filled up by. Oh, yeah. Talk to Will Smith. Yeah, you know, I say Will. Speaker 1 We hang out on the weekends. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Speaker 2 Martin will all of us. Yeah, but. Speaker 1 Yeah, no, it's true. Speaker 2 So like you know you, you're sitting there and just like I want to soak up everything you. Speaker 1 Have to say, you know, yeah. And so doing shit like that, bro, and coming out on the other side of it OK is like, you know, like doing hard shit and coming out OK is like the foundation of, you know, secure attachment, you know? Speaker 2 Let me on that note of talking to your team and being comfortable, man, Somebody that I love that you always talk about them. How important is having your best friend? Boogus. Yeah. How important is having your best friend? Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 Right alongside with you your entire career, also your business partner in Diamond. Speaker 1 Yeah, man, it's I was just saying it yesterday. I don't think I would have made it without Boogas. Boogas was the visionary behind all this shit. OK, Boogas came up with the name Diamond. You know, when we were 17, Boogas filed the LLC at fucking 18. Do it everyday. Music or nothing. That was Boogas's idea he came up with. He filed the LLC. He fucking. Speaker 2 You know how to do it at 18? Speaker 1 He's just bro booze is just smart as shit, just wise beyond his years. But Boogies is the one who found Tune Core, you know what I mean? Like, bro, we should use Tune Core to get our music up. Wow. He's the one who was reading Napoleon Hill and Paolo Cuelo and Deepak Chopra, and then he gave me those books. It's all like 18. Speaker 2 Crazy. Speaker 1 You know, and I was just producing for him exclusively and you know, I would do hooks and verses here and there, but when I turned around in the studio when I was on the mic and I was like, yo, should I rap that right there to me? Like it's not even me being dramatic. That to me is probably like one of the most pivotal moments of my life. Because back then, you know, if you hear no from the right person, it's going to fucking, it might derail you, change the whole trajectory. And back then I'm, I'm not a rapper. I'm not, I'm just like doing verses, making beats, you know, I've never even made my own song before. And Buddhist was the rapper, you know, And when I turned around and asked, Yo, do you think I should rap? And he just instant, no hesitation. Hell yeah. That was it. That's all I needed. It was over with from then on. Speaker 2 That's how you know, that's like a that's a real one right there. Yeah. Yeah. Because a lot of people can't say that, that somebody would say the same because they're like, no, what? I'm the artist. Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly. He bro at especially at 18, Yeah, he could have been like no bro, like I think you should just make beat or whatever. Like it was in his house, the studio was in his house. That's crazy, you know? So it's like I was on my shit as a result of Boogies being on his shit. The studio was in Bugis's house. Speaker 2 Right. I thought it was in your house. Speaker 1 No, the in high school it was in my house, but after that setup, that setup that I did my whole career was in Bugis's house. Speaker 2 Oh yeah, yeah. After Yeah. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. So like it was Bugis who had the open door policy at his house where I could just show up whenever and just be like, yo, I'm outside. And he'd be like, come around the back, you know, and we would get in the studio. But like, I was pulling up that often because Bugis's energy to get it was contagious, you know, and I don't, I know I wouldn't have been that on my shit without Buddhist. Because when he moved to LA, it was like 20/13/2012, he moved to LA for like 6-7 months or something like that to like go to a music school out here and he had the setup. So obviously he's going to take the setup with him. And so I'm just in Atlanta, 20 years old, you know, I'm dating a chick that isn't good for me, you know, not making music because I don't have a setup. I'm just making beats. And I wasn't trying to like, I wasn't making it a point to get a setup. I was like, I'll just like record whenever, like Boogies whenever I see him or something. I wasn't on it like that. So I saw like, you know, those six months where I was not on my shit. I remember Boogies text me and he sent me this long ass text. He was like, because he was thinking about moving back to Atlanta, but it was a long ass text and it was like, I'll summarize. It was basically like, I'm not about to come back to Atlanta. If you're about to just be bullshitting, like if I'm going to come back, you need to be on your shit. And that was a wake up call, you know. Speaker 2 Crazy. Yeah, there's always that one person. Speaker 1 That's what I'm saying though. But it's like I saw I can look back at that time and be like, wow bro yeah, I was not on my shit and I don't think I would have been on it without Bugus. Bugus was the driving force. I had all this shit. I wouldn't have made it without Boogies, bro. That's the reality. Yeah, yeah, that's the reality that I can. I don't believe in that whole like, oh, I would have made it. Somehow I don't think so. Speaker 2 That's crazy. I don't. Have you ever told that story that you were, you didn't. You'd have that moment where. Speaker 1 You weren't. I don't think I have. Speaker 2 Yeah, talk to me about Milan, my Canadian brother. Speaker 1 Oh man, Milan. Milan and me connected in 2015 and just sent an e-mail, man. I remember where I was. I was at Lifetime Fitness playing basketball with my dad and my brother. And I was like, wow, bro, holy shit, things are happening, you know, like we got a fucking e-mail from this like legit manager, you know, and he flew me out to Toronto to meet him. And he was working with Waka at the time in Toronto, Yeah, Like he was with Brick Squad and all that. Speaker 2 Milan, yeah, did not know that. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I met all of them. Speaker 2 What year is this 20? Speaker 1 15. Speaker 2 OK. Yeah, OK. OK. Speaker 1 2015 So meet them. Milan gets me a studio, I think. Is it Orange Studios in Toronto? Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 Is that a studio? Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 I don't know if it's there anymore. Speaker 1 It's like right there on. Speaker 2 Crazy. Speaker 1 Yeah, and we go there and the piano is like out of tune, but it's awesome. And I sit down and I make I want to go down with you, which ended up being on the debut. And we just we built a relationship after that. You know, there was like there was hiccups and whatever. There was three months where like we didn't talk. I forget even what the fucking issue was. But I remember just telling him like, don't call me till you get me. Kara Lewis as. Speaker 2 A. Speaker 1 Booking agent. Speaker 2 So you guys connect. You always heard the story when you guys connect. Speaker 1 And then working together. Yeah. And then had a bit of a falling out. No shit. Yeah. But the falling out was really like one of his business partners, like promising me like a show or something. And back then, bro, I'd never done a show really in that capacity. And so I was so amped. I'm telling my whole family, we're all gassed about it. LA or and it falls through and that she was like so embarrassing and just. Speaker 2 Saying it's crushing, it's. Speaker 1 Crushing bro that sounds like fuck all y'all like you know what I mean. So we didn't talk for like 3 months and I told him like don't reach out unless you have care Lewis. You know this is how like this is how much I studied this shit. Like we knew the booking agents, we knew care Lewis and Peter what's his name? Peter Schwartz right? The old like, is it Peter Schwartz? Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, I know what you're talking about. Speaker 1 Yeah, because it was Cara and him were like the ones. Speaker 2 Right I. Speaker 1 Think it was. I think that's his name. Speaker 2 I think you're, yeah. Speaker 1 Yeah, but I was like, yeah, don't call me until you have Cara Lewis and so. Speaker 2 This is crazy. Yeah, it's. Speaker 1 Such an absurd demand. Speaker 2 It's for the people who know, like, don't know Cara Lewis at the time. I mean, still, Eminem, I believe you. Speaker 1 Know Yeah, she did yeah. Eminem. Yeah. Travis like. Speaker 2 She's the goat, She's the goat. Speaker 1 Yeah, so I want, and for those who don't know, a booking agent is somebody who books the tours, routes the tours. So because I wanted to be on the road so bad, and I was like, man, if I want to be on the road, I want Cara Lewis. I know she'll get me on the road. And so three months goes by or four months or whatever. And, you know, independent labels have been reaching out. Cinematic Records had reached out. Johnny Shapes. Speaker 2 Oh shit. Speaker 1 Yeah, and this is, I'll never forget the date, September 1st, 2015. OK, I fly to New York. I go meet with shapes and cinematic and on the way to New York, I have a layover in Charlotte. This is like so crazy how this happened. I have a layover in Charlotte. Milan calls me. I haven't talked to him in months. He calls me. He's like, yo, I got you a meeting with Kara. He said. The only thing is it's at 4:30 today in New York. I'm like, I'm like, I'm actually in Charlotte about a land in New York. Speaker 2 Land in New York. Speaker 1 Like, what are the odds, though, You know what I'm saying? And why would you set up a meeting with Kara in New York when you know I'm in fucking Atlanta? Like, what was I supposed to do? But I was flying to New York. And so I land in New York and with my bags in my hand, I go to Kara's office. And this is when she was at CAA and meet Kara. And I was like, like, care to me then? And still, like, I still get nervous around Cara Lewis because Cara Lewis to me is a superstar. Like that's how if I study this shit like Cara Lewis, I get more starstruck around Cara than fucking whoever, you know? And I'm in the office with Cara Lewis and I'm telling I'm showing her like my SoundCloud analytics. I'm like, these are the top 10 cities on my SoundCloud. These are where I should tour. And oh, that day, that day, that day, I'm showing her those analytics. But I had, I think I just hit 10,000 followers on SoundCloud. That was like where I was at. So there wasn't a lot of like shit happening. You know, September 1st, 2015, I had just dropped what they want to pull the trigger because Losing Control came out November of that year and do It Myself came out December. But I'll never forget the date because the thing back then that was so cool was being able to put for booking in your bio and it was care Lewis's name. And so I left that office September 1st, 2015, being able to put for booking care and it just made me feel so fucking like official, bro. Those small wins are enough to like keep your dream alive for you know what I mean? And so shortly after that, I think in October, there, there used to be this, what was it called? CMJ showcase some shit like that in New York. It was like New York's, like South by Southwest thing. Speaker 2 Oh yeah, yeah, I. Speaker 1 Remember that? And she got me on a show that was during the week of that showcase where I opened for Jay Electronica and which was awesome. Like Jay Electronica is one of the greatest rappers ever. But like you can imagine how off that was. Like audience wise for me to go out there and do like fucking Willy Wonka and fucking like melodic. I remember the crowd looking at me like, and this is New York too, and this is New York for J Electronica. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. And then? Speaker 1 And then I roll out. It's like, get this dude the fuck off stage. I wanted to get off stage so bad and I remember meeting Elliot Wilson in the crowd back then and. Speaker 2 You know who he is. Speaker 1 I knew who he is once again, because I studied this shit. He didn't know who I was, but I was like, bro, I'm about to be huge. I'm telling you. He was all right, cool. And that was that. Now, you know, Elliot's my guy. But so that was like October 2015. And then I think it was shortly after that I did my first show ever in New York at SO BS. Maybe that was 26. I think it was 2015. I still I have my wallet on. Oh they have my wallet. I still carry around the check. Speaker 2 That's it. Speaker 1 Who? Rob, you got my wallet? Let me see. It's crazy I still move around with the the first check I got. Speaker 2 That's the show ever crazy. Speaker 1 I move around with that and the ticket I got to Sunday service because it was the first time I met Kanye. Oh shit. Oh, you threw it. That was really ambitious to think I would catch you. Speaker 2 He's a Hooper. That's what I was thinking too, man. Yeah, he's got the hands let. Speaker 1 Me see if this was it because I'll tell you the date. Yeah, October 15th, 2015. Speaker 2 Put it up to the camera. Speaker 1 Here real life check man. Speaker 2 Wow, 200 and you never. Speaker 1 250 bucks, I was rich. You couldn't tell me shit. What? Speaker 2 How did that feel to get that? Speaker 1 I'll be honest man, that $250 hit way more than getting 600 grand for a show. Speaker 2 Right. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 Right, it's. Speaker 1 It meant way more. Speaker 2 How come? Speaker 1 Because it was proof of life on this faraway planet I was trying to get to. By the time I was getting 600 grand for a show, I had gotten 400. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 You know what I'm saying? So it's like it meant. Speaker 2 More. You know, it's crazy. It's the same thing. I remember first time Jesse got a check. Yeah, 450 bucks for a sink placement. Speaker 1 Real money. Speaker 2 Real money. The first thing is just like proof of life. Speaker 1 Proof of life. Speaker 2 And and like her even like giving me the check of like my commissions. Oh man. And that was like a month. Speaker 1 Making money off of music. Speaker 2 Yeah, It was like, yeah, It was just like, it's incredible. This is what we're doing. Like this is actually happening. You know, I remember one time we were in a car, we were in an Uber somewhere driving in Toronto, You know, Manifesto Toronto used to do this festival called Manifesto. They might still do it. I'm not sure, but she did A2 song set. I had a relationship with the people and she was kind of like garnering a bit of a name. It's like 250 bucks and then it but it was like again, proof of life. And then like 18 months later they called me and we're like we got $15,000 for her to cool shit. And I remember telling her in the car, and I turned around at her and I said, I said, Jesse Manifesto just offered you 15 grand. And she's like, what? Yeah. And that's like the first. Yeah. And I said I remember this. I said, but we're going to say no. Whoa. Why? Because it wasn't a hard ticket. There's a festival ticket. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I said and I thought to myself, this is our home city. Yeah. Let's start slow. You're starting to gain a name. Yeah. Let's go to Mod Club. It's still there, though. But that's like that. That's where Weekend did his first show. Like, it's iconic for many reasons. And so, you know, we did that show with Jesse. Iconic as well. She brought Alessia Cara out. Oh, wow. She had King Louie come out like King Louie. Holy. That's our guy. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he was. We were doing a lot more damage in Chicago than we were in Toronto. That's. Speaker 1 Crazy. Speaker 2 Yeah, because she had a song that we put out on SoundCloud. Yeah, she was featured on the King Louis record called Living in the Sky. Wow. That she produced. Yeah, that she did the hook. And so her name started to get around because Andrew at Face Short Drive posted. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Tweeted that that's the favorite song of King Louise that he's heard in a while. Wow. So people, it was starting to buzz. Speaker 1 And it was. Speaker 2 Hard man, super hard. Good dude too. And Obama, like his, like his people. Good people. But yeah, it was just that first. Speaker 1 Check bro, it was weirdo. There's nothing like it, man. I mean, yeah, I still move around with it for that reason, you know? And that was SO BS. And it was like, SO BS might as well have been the garden back then, you know what I mean? South by Southwest 2016 And so that was October 2015. And then South by Southwest 2016, Milan got me this Airbnb. And this is like, I didn't think Uber was out yet. This is out crazy. Like I remember taking like taxis or something having to walk but South by Southwest 2016 was like a. Speaker 2 Fucking taxi in South by Southwest was insanity. Speaker 1 But this was the like rhyme South. Speaker 2 By Southwest like it's. Speaker 1 One like Drake in future where you know what I mean? Speaker 2 They're doing a fader for. Speaker 1 It yeah, they did fader for it. I remember I think either Drake was performing or future was and they brought out each other something they did jump man, you know this one, like everyone, everybody was going, everybody was doing South by Southwest back then was even holy shit, it's levelling up again, you know, like, and Kara was Kara was trying to get me on shows. I was desperately just like I want to go on the road, but like nobody would have me, you know, we were trying to open. She would submit me to open on people's tours and they were just saying no, no, no. You know, finally I was able to open for Cat Dahlia for like 3 shows. Crazy. Yeah, she's awesome. And so I did that. I opened for Bryson Tiller at like 2 colleges. Yeah, I opened for Bryson Tiller at like Penn State. Wow. Yeah. And I remember thinking I was the man. I was like, I'm on stage, like sound checking, like, yeah, look at the fucking arena. And it's, it's not yours. You fucking lose. No. Speaker 2 But still it's. Speaker 1 Still, it's still a moment, man, I know, but it's like anything to make myself feel good enough, bro. So I did that. And yeah, it was just Milan driving. We rented a car, you know, and we had put out the Losing Control video and the What They Want video. Shout out to Edgar Estevez, who, like, DMV Angel fell out of the skies. Like, I'm down to shoot everything for free. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Once those videos came out, that shit took off. Like it was the video that was back in the golden era of music video where like the music videos blew up, you know? Speaker 2 Not budget wise. These budgets were terrible. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, but they they blew up and then it was a wrap after that, bro. That was like February, March 2016. And then Kara got me my international booking agent, Steve Strange. Rest in peace. Oh, shit. Yeah. And then Becky, who was over there too, she was both of them were doing my booking. And so my first tour was an international tour. It was like I'll never forget I had 34,000 followers on like on Instagram. And my first tour was the Manifest tour and it was like April of 2016 and it was 8 shows, something like that, seven shows, 100 cap, 150 cap. Milan rented a car. We drove all. Speaker 2 Around it knows America. Speaker 1 No Europe international, yeah, like Manchester, London, you know, it was crazy though bro. It was like my first time really. That was my first tour. Speaker 2 But is that but you did Berlin at that point, was that when you had 1100 people or 350? Speaker 1 No, Belgium, I had 1100. Yeah. So this is when it was like crazy because like the labels were flying out to watch the show like they were at the. Speaker 2 Belgium show what's up? Speaker 1 They're trying to, you know, they were at South by Southwest, too, and they're trying to all like, you know, figure out what's going on. It was fun. And then I came off of that and finally it's like, OK, I'm ready to go on my own tour in America, you know, and it just worked out where I guess I never had to like open on someone's full tour. Like I did those three shows with Kath Dahlia. I did 2 shows with Bryson, but luckily the videos came out and it blew it up. And then the catalog starts to blow up. And I remember watching my tune Court checks go from, you know, $800 September of 2015 to like 1000 in October, 2500 in December, and then January it's 8th, February 2016, it's 16, March, it's 40 April at 75. Speaker 2 And you're not signed. Speaker 1 No, in May, it's June, so I'm making 100 grand a month. Not signed. Kylie Jenner is posting Pull the trigger and losing control. My shit's charting on iTunes like I'm going on tours. My shit was lit. You know, that's why I had like back then. That's crazy leverage. Speaker 2 You know, Oh my God. I mean, today is still crazy. Speaker 1 Leverage it still is today for sure but so I come back I send care of the analytics of like SoundCloud because Spotify and Apple Apple wasn't even fucking out Apple came out 2015 Spotify. No one even fucking knew what was going on with that. I was back when Tuma was like running, you know, Rob Caviar and all that. So I sent her the analytics from SoundCloud and yeah, did a like 6 city tour in America, like Billings, Mt Denver played like the Bluebird Theatre and LA like the flies. Thing was to like like Carol was telling me like he turned the house. So you do like 2 shows in the same night. So we did Echoplex 350 cab. I remember like Gibson Hazard, like was the photographer. Speaker 2 Oh shit. Speaker 1 For my first LA show. Speaker 2 You just called you and said. Speaker 1 I think, I think he was a fan and like I needed a photographer. And so I was like, yeah, bro, your shit's fire. And now Gibson is fucking, you know, so it's just cool seeing people like who stick with their shit, elevate, whatever. Side note. But for sure, yeah, man, once that shit happened, it was over with like, because for me, that was when the discovery was like, really, really happening. And so I was able to, you know, I would come off that tour and then a month later I went back out on like the Young God tour. And that was 10 cities, 12 cities. And then a month later I did the do it myself tour like I'm doing markets 6 times in a year type of shit. You know what? I. Speaker 2 Mean why are you doing that many in that? Speaker 1 Because to me it was just like, I kept having so many songs come out, so I kept being able to like, I can do a whole new set next door. You just saw me two months ago, but that's 10 new songs I could do. Speaker 2 That's the importance of the catalog. Speaker 1 And it was growing so fast that like, you know, LA was Echo Plex. And then I did El Rey the second time by December of 2016, I did the Novo, you know, which is 2500. So it's like it was growing fast. Speaker 2 And how important is it that you didn't skip any steps? Speaker 1 So important, so important because I had to do my own artist development. You know what I mean? Like, I can't imagine there's a lot of these artists, they, they get huge and they've never done a show. Speaker 2 Yeah, like. Speaker 1 Like how? Like. Speaker 2 Little Nas XI, remember. Speaker 1 Yes, that's the one that comes to mind too. I'm like damn bro, I like what Olivia Rodrigo did. Speaker 2 Yeah, she was going to smaller rooms. Speaker 1 She did smaller rooms. Her fans were pissed, but that was the right decision. What should this girl do who's never done shows like that? She should come out the gate and do fucking arenas. Or do you want her to collapse on stage? Yeah, exactly. You know what I'm saying? Like it's nerve wracking. Speaker 2 It's just setting a person up for failure. Speaker 1 Yeah, bro, like I remember when 1100 people might as well have been 20,000 1100 felt like scary as fuck, you know, So I'm glad I didn't skip the steps. And I think it gives fans a point of connection because they're like, I remember when you were doing 300 people in Houston and now you're, you know, it's cool when you when fans can be invited to come along on the journey on the ground level, they're going to fuck with you way harder. Speaker 2 Speaking of the fans, how important is it to build with a fan and directly connect with them? How important is it to build with a fan and connect with them? How? How important is it to recognize the Nick Eberts of the World man? Speaker 1 Super important, especially when there's four of them, you know what I mean? Like. Speaker 2 Are you talking to them on a regular basis? Speaker 1 Yeah, like not as much anymore, but like, yeah, Oh my God, man. I still, I just talked to Nick the other day. Tickets to the Atlanta show. Yeah, I mean, those were the first fucking fans, man. Like like 1st 10 fans type shit, you know what I mean? I still, I go on my discord, I created my discord and I jump on there and talk to fans all the time. I'm doing an event tomorrow night where I'm having one of my biggest fans from Discord who she's just always asked awesome questions. When I do stage she's going to interview me. It's a live interview. Oh shit, with. Speaker 2 The fans at the Grammy Museum. Speaker 1 No, afterwards. Afterwards. Yeah, OK, yeah, bro, that's. I just think like you got to do like I love doing shit like that. Speaker 2 Oh, but see, this is what I'm talking about. Look at the at the level that you're at doing arenas, Yeah. Billions of streams, yeah. Hundreds of millions, yeah. Dollars, yeah. Still directly connecting with the fans. Speaker 1 Yeah, they're the ones who get it. Speaker 2 They're the ones who get it. Speaker 1 They're the ones who get it. I like talking to them. They get it. You know what I'm saying? It's like sometimes I feel like I talk to people who don't get it, and that's a frustrating conversation. Speaker 2 Yeah, but why waste your time? Speaker 1 Right. So it's like somebody like her, she's, she's smart, she asks insightful questions and she has context of the catalog and she gets it. And why not? Like to me, one of my favorite things to do in terms of like engaging with my fans is to go on my Discord and just hop on stage and ramble and read the questions that they're asking and bring one of them up on the stage. And they asked me a question and I love that shit. It's fun as hell. They asked cool questions, like, I don't know, they ask questions that it's hard for just anybody else to ask unless you've been following it hella close, you know? So I think it's really important to engage with your fans, I think. Yeah, you can play the whole mysterious card, but people also like, get that fucked up. It's like you can only be mysterious after you've done the Super engaging. Speaker 2 Work Yeah, bro yeah people you. Speaker 1 Can't come out the gate serious. Who do you think you. Speaker 2 Are everybody thinks that Adele was just this like, like she would come drop an album and go away? No, man, Adele went and did a ton of promo, a ton of press. Her first album, Frank Ocean was like all over the place with Odd Future, You know, just like the only person that I think who's done it well, not the only person, but I think like the Weekend did it incredibly well. I. Speaker 1 Remember when the weekend came out and everyone like, didn't know what he looked like? Speaker 2 For like a year and he dropped three albums. But that's the thing. This is, this is where I look at it. And I say, yeah, you can do the whole mysterious shit, but if you think the mysterious shit is like one song on album, then go and disappear for six months, bro, you're tripping like. Speaker 1 It's also like people have to accept the fact that we're not in a certain era anymore. Those dudes all like premiere, like pre streaming era, you know what I'm saying? Like we're not in that time anymore. Like that was back when there was so many less artists being pushed in your face. There wasn't TikTok, there wasn't. The algorithms weren't what they were. Instagram came out 2010. Speaker 2 And it was only photos. Speaker 1 You know what I'm saying? So it's like the industry was able to quality control what was going out and it was you could do the mysterious thing because the mysterious shit had a lot of money behind it. Speaker 2 You know what I mean? Speaker 1 Like that, it was a curated mystery. Speaker 2 It's very true. Speaker 1 It wasn't just like a dude on Instagram in his bedroom who posted an album link and then dips. That's not what they were doing. Speaker 2 Not at all. And if you think that's what they were doing, you're clueless. Yeah. Yeah, you're up to lunch. Exactly. Speaker 1 Even like, you know, people will try to like reference like Playboy Cardi's like Cardi was hella active. Speaker 2 That's what I was thinking of, but yeah. Speaker 1 Hell, active bro. Yeah, I remember when he was like with Awful Records in Atlanta, OK. And I I loved what Awful Records was doing. It's like this collective that this guy Father started. It was like father Playboy Cardi was in it. This incredible artist Abra, who is just I named a song after her because of the vibe of her music. She was just fucking incredible. Slug cries. This other one, just like this group of, like, cool creative artists and rappers. They had a big song. Wrist, wrist, wrist, wrist. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 That was like Father Key. But yeah, Cardi was with them, you know, and they were like very active. There you go. And then he went to New York and ASAP and this and that, you know? But it's like you don't just start out mysterious. Speaker 2 No, not at all. No, unless you got like a lot of. Speaker 1 Unless there's a lot of money behind you. Speaker 2 Yeah, you're getting this buzz. It's going crazy for you. You're now talking to all the labels. Yeah. What are you? What are the conversations you and Milan are having with the labels? What is this looking like at the time? Speaker 1 It was funny, bro. I was a maniac. I knew what I was sitting. I knew what I was sitting on. Like I had there's really a wolf and I knew what it was. And keep in mind, right, So I'm doing all these label meetings like May, June of 2016, because like, June is when I partnered with Columbia. Yes. So I'm making 100 grand a month. Kylie Jenner has posted my shit. I'm charting on iTunes. I sold out my tours. Like, I have more tours booked. I have songs coming out as we speak, you know, like, and I'm sitting on a debut that I know is dumb and losing control of what they want are going crazy moving. So yeah. So I'm like, you know, I meet with everyone and I'm playing them the album and every song, I'm like, it's a fucking Grammy. This is a fucking plaque. This is a plaque. Just crazy. And the mindset back then was I needed to level the playing field. The landscape was not what it is now. It was not as easy to just, like, not that it wasn't as easy. It wasn't as obvious that you didn't need radio to be a big artist, you know, Because like I said, the context matters, right? Social context matters. Apple Music came out 2015, yes. So this is 2016. It's not a thing. Spotify was not a thing like that. The streams were happening there, but like we weren't even looking. No, we weren't looking at that. We're still looking at iTunes I. Speaker 2 Remember looking at Spotify for the first time and then around that time 20/14/2015 I was like these streams look like manipulated. Speaker 1 Ah yeah, some some weird shit transparently. Yeah, Byron. Speaker 2 Who I Co man is Jesse with Yeah, for all that time, he's the one that convinced me like yo, we need to put the the figures. The first song that put up that's the one that went crazy great song and did the whole bidding more thing. He's like yo, we we got to put this on Spotify because in my head I was like no SoundCloud. Yeah. Speaker 1 Yeah, let's go. Speaker 2 SoundCloud, but he's like, and, and my, my thinking was forget about trying to get people to pay to listen to the just put it everywhere. But he's like, no, but there's like a free tier and there's somebody at Spotify in Canada that I know Nate, let's talk to him. And then it was like, oh, OK, now I'm starting to understand it. But you're right, it was. That's the context. Speaker 1 I was like bro up until I mean even like 20/17/28 I was posting the SoundCloud link when I dropped music. Like the song was everywhere but I did not promote anything but SoundCloud. Speaker 2 Crazy. So I just. Speaker 1 Wanted you to hear the song. I didn't even understand like what playlists were and none of that. So yeah, so we're we're talking to all the labels and I have this crazy leverage. I'm sitting on an insane album and it's a moving train. So they know with or without them, like I'm making 100 grand a month. What do you think is going to be next month? You know, So it doesn't really matter what y'all are talking about. I'm moving, so me and Milan just wanted to go somewhere. Like I said, we had to level the playing field because it wasn't obvious that you didn't need radio to be a bigger star. You know, we're looking at every artist, Drake, everyone that we look up to and we're like, they have radio and everyone on radio signed. So I guess we got a partner. That was the that was the complete thought process. It was not about anything else but radio. So we went with Columbia because Columbia at that time was a really tastefully curated label. It was Bob Dylan, it was Adele, it was Beyoncé, it was Pharrell, and it was Tyler. Like that was kind of it. There wasn't a lot of competition as far as well, If I go to Atlantic, who has 78 rappers, I'm not confident y'all are going to give my shit attention like that. Y'all got too much going on, you know, So I went with Columbia for that reason and it paid off. And shout out to Emron. Shout out to Wes, too. Emron gets the credit for signing me. Wes found my music and pass it to Emron. OK, But shout out to Emron, because Emron was, he was the A&R. He was my A&R. Yeah. And. Speaker 2 Over context, Emron is now president of Ireland. Yes, with Justin. Speaker 1 Chapel Ron and Sabrina Carpenter and all that to a shout out to Emron because man, when I partnered with them and I posted it on my Instagram and let all my fans know the day I signed the shit, I posted the video so that it was transparent. Like, OK, we leveled up. We're doing this now. I'm partnered with a major label. Speaker 2 No, your partner sorry not sign your. Speaker 1 Partner, but I kept my entire tune Core catalog. Speaker 2 How did you do that bro? Speaker 1 They didn't have a choice. It was that was a non negotiable. Speaker 2 You told him out the gate. Speaker 1 Yeah, told him out the gate, you can't touch this. I'm keeping my entire tune core catalog or I'm not doing the deal right and. Speaker 2 Were there other labels when you said that they're like, OK, we're not interested? Speaker 1 No, they were all with that because they knew. Like they knew the amount of output I was willing to give, and like they knew they knew that I wanted to put losing control what they want, pull the trigger and do myself on the album I was down to do. Speaker 2 So it was part of the so they. Speaker 1 Knew, like, what was about to happen, you know? So yeah, so I kept that entire back catalog. And that's where I gave big credit to Enron. And the other people at the label were pushing back on this, but he would just always get them over the hump. But I was like, bro, I got to keep dropping though, consistent. Like after signing, I was like, I got to keep dropping. Like, we'll do the debut album after the shit gets like, dumb big, but I got to keep dropping between now and then. So this is like June, July 2016 and the conversation was really like me dropping songs consistently still is going to make me the artist Russ Bigger, which is going to make the debut album that we split the profits on bigger. So it doesn't matter. The other just point of just like common sense shit was like, look guys, you don't want me to put these songs out on tune core because now I'm going to deal with you all, but you also don't want to spend money on the songs. And so if you don't want to spend money on the songs, then you don't get to have the songs. If you want to split the profits on these songs that I'm just trying to put out in the interim between, you know, signing and putting out the debut, then you got to spend money on it. And if you don't, what do you care? It's I'm not asking you to give me 100 grand for cycle Part 2 and then you don't get to participate in the profits. I'm just saying you're not trying to spend money on it anyway, right? So let me rock. Speaker 2 OK. So let me understand this. So you're putting these records on TuneCore while you're partnered up with Columbia. Columbia's not sharing in the revenue of the records that you're putting on a tune. Speaker 1 Court No. Speaker 2 Did you have that in the paperwork prior to or did you just convince them? Speaker 1 While you were, it was just, yeah, it was like a convinced thing, that's what. Like Emron was just the man he. Speaker 2 What kind of How do you know he's getting pushed back? He's telling you. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah, and that was Rob Stringer at the time, right? I. Speaker 1 Love Rob Stringer, man. Yeah, that was Rob Stringer. Yeah, they were. They were just, I think as a company in general, they were all cool with it. They believed in me. They, you know, it was a rare deal. You know, like I'm putting out Psycho Part 2 on Tune Core after signing and it gets a billion streams. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 And they don't. And that's on my tune core. That's crazy. Yeah, You know what I'm saying? Like, that's fucked even. Like, you know, there was a bunch of songs in the interim that I was able to just put on. Speaker 2 Tune, which is every all the shit that. Speaker 1 They Yeah, wow, yeah. So it's a crazy situation. So then, yeah, then the debut came out as a rap. But even after that, in between, I was still like, push it out on my tune core. Or sometimes I'd be like, Oh yeah, we can do this one together. But they were just real flexible with that. There was only one time I was in Germany. I just done a festival and I just wanted to rap and bar up. And I dropped the song called The Game in the middle of the night on my tune court. And like, no one at the label knew. And I like show up to the label like the next week and like Rob Stringer is there and I Ella, who I love. Speaker 2 Oh, I Ella, she's the one that connected us. Speaker 1 So yeah, I, Ella and Rob is like, you can't just drop songs like we're a multibillion dollar label. Speaker 2 You can't just. Speaker 1 I'm like aye aye, my fault. I'll give you a heads up next time but I'm still going to drop it. I'll give you 20. Speaker 2 4 hours notice. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 Rob's going to call 24 hours ahead of time and send you an e-mail. Speaker 1 Exactly that. It's going on three, Yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah, wow. Speaker 1 Yeah, man. Yeah, it wasn't. It was a good situation. I don't have a Horror Story with the labels. It just got to a point. It got to a point where the juice wasn't worth the squeeze because what I had, the reason why I signed, I quickly learned that oh, you guys can get told no to. Speaker 2 Explain that. Speaker 1 So I signed thinking that, well, once you sign, your song goes on radio. Once you sign, your song will go in these playlists and did it. And then I learned that it's people behind all these companies. And so it's a guy at Columbia who's calling a guy at Spotify to say, yo, I got this new Russ song. I think it'd be great for today's top hits. And then it's Spotify being like, I don't think so, you know what I mean? And so I'm like, wait, it's crazy. And so I'm like, wait, you guys are getting told no? I'll just get told no without having to cut you in, right? I'll just get told no. So. Speaker 2 What am I sharing the profits in? Speaker 1 If you can get told no makes no sense. Exactly. I'll keep 100% and also get told no right you. Speaker 2 Know what I mean? At what point are you discovering that? And you're like, all right. Speaker 1 20/20/19 But it was also like changing CEOs and it just wasn't a good alignment, good fit. OK, I wanted to dip, you know, and yeah, I wanted to just get out of there and so I just bought myself out the deal, paid a 1.5 bit. Speaker 2 Crazy. Yeah. What's that conversation like with your lawyers, with Milan? Speaker 1 It was rare even to even for them to let me walk because I still had an album right, left. And I was coming off of having my first number one at radio, funny enough. Best on Earth when #1 And I'm like, yeah, I want a dip though. They're like what? Speaker 2 We did the thing that you. Speaker 1 Said we did what you want. And I was like, Nah, it's too late. Because at that point it just wasn't, just wasn't a good relationship, you know, with, with some people there. So I was just out, you know. Speaker 2 Yeah. So you would say that if somebody's going to go and do a label situation today, which they're not signing artists like they used to anymore because they're like, you know, hundreds of people got laid off in the major labels and those frontline artists are they're not signing them anymore because they're focusing on catalogs like yours. Yeah, right. Legacy, I guess is what it's called. But if you were going to go to a label, would you at least say like, hey, if you're going to go to a label, have leverage? Speaker 1 Yeah, mandatory. You have leverage. Speaker 2 Profit split. Speaker 1 Have leverage, profit split is mandatory. Something non exploitative. You know what I mean by that is make it a three album deal and make sure they have release commitments. Yes the release commitment shit that saved me too because I don't give a fuck how y'all feel about me at the label. You got to put my shit out because of the contract. Speaker 2 Yes. Speaker 1 And in fact, you got another month. Speaker 2 Yes. Speaker 1 You know what I mean, 100% the release commitment is real and the reversions, you know, so like for me. Speaker 2 What's the What's the reversion? Speaker 1 Meaning you guys can participate in the profits, but after 10 years, no you can't. And it all goes back to me. So like right now, those three albums that I did with Columbia, we still split 5050 on. Which like, I'm OK with Y'all fucking put up millions and millions of dollars in my pocket in advances, you know, I get it. And I think it's wild that I can even like get 100% of the shit back in, you know? What's it, 2025 in 20-30? Losing control is going back on my tune Core. Speaker 2 That's right, because you left at 2020. Speaker 1 So it's a 10 year reward, which is crazy. Yeah, time flies like Losing Control back on my tune. Core is nuts because it still goes like platinum every year. Speaker 2 Every year, that's going to be diamond, Diamond in a couple. Speaker 1 Of years. I think it'll be Diamond. Yeah. Like, and then next. Speaker 2 Year. Wow. Yeah, it's incredible. I see that goes back on your tune. Speaker 1 Core tune core. Speaker 2 I saw on that note, you did an interview with Steve Stoute. Making $1M in a Month Steve Stoute's the founder of the United Masters. I was just legend in the game. He was in the agency world for a little bit, wrote that book, Tanning of America. If you've never read that book, read that book. But in that interview you said I'm on Operation Tell All the Game. I'm going to show everybody that I'm going to make $1,000,000 in a month and we got to talk to nobody you at that point. Speaker 1 I've made a million in a month, yeah. Speaker 2 Crazy. So what is that? What does that look like? How did you? I guess it's a combination of everything we've talked about. Speaker 1 But it's a combination of catalog. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 It's a combination of catalog and putting out a song at the beginning of the month that doesn't damage, and you know what I mean, to get to the like million in fair enough. But at a certain point, my catalog is going to get so big where it's just going to cruise at a million a month. Speaker 2 Which is? It leads me to another. Speaker 1 Thing. And by the way, I'm only talking about master. Speaker 2 Side exactly. That's crazy. Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm talking about a million a month off the master. That's this is the other thing. I just mentioned this in another interview, but this obsession with publishing is one of the biggest like swindles and distractions the music business has going on. There's more money in the master. There's way more money in the master in the industry based off of fuck narratives has convinced everyone to only care about the publishing. It's like what? There's so much more money on the master. Yes. Like, I don't know, it's crazy. Speaker 2 I say that Byron and I were talking about that on the part, too. It's like it's the biggest finesse that the majors probably ever did say you don't make money on the masters, you make it on touring. Speaker 1 Oh my God, that's such a lie. Speaker 2 No streaming you make money in. Speaker 1 Streaming so much. There is so much money in music if you own the master correct? So much money. Publishing, you really only see, like, crazy money off of publishing if some shit crushed that radio, Yeah, and pop radio specifically, or like a sink thing or whatever. But it's like master if you own the master. Oh my God, bro, I'm caking off masters. Yeah, that like never even left my fan base, right? They're just big songs in this little ecosystem. And I mean, I it's nuts, dog. It's nuts how much money you can make off the masters. I always tell people, if you don't think there's money in music, realize that labels don't tour and they make billions of dollars. Speaker 2 That's a fact. Speaker 1 Realize that labels, record labels, realize that Columbia does not participate in publishing or touring, and they make billions of dollars because there's money in music. Speaker 2 Yes. Speaker 1 You're just not getting access to the money. Speaker 2 More specifically, there's money in rights of the master. Speaker 1 So much, so much. It's like it's the biggest lie that gets told bro. It's like. Speaker 2 Why do you think that happens? You think it's easy? Speaker 1 Exactly. Because it's easy. It's easy. It's something that like you can just accept because you've heard it so many times. Like, it's like how people used to tell me, I just want you to worry about the music. I don't want you to have to worry about anything else. You just focus on the music. I always be like, fuck you. Like what? Tell me what to focus on. Fuck you. Yeah. Oh, so I don't look that way. And what you're doing. Yeah, right. Right. I got fucking eyes going every which way. Speaker 2 Yeah, real sick. Speaker 1 You know, and so for me, it's like, yeah, of course they're going to tell artists like there's no money in the master just so that you don't ask questions. Speaker 2 Exactly, you know, and if there wasn't any money then why would there be these massive financial institutions that are looking at streaming money to purchase catalog? Speaker 1 Right. Why are they spending 200 million to acquire your catalog if there's no money in music? Speaker 2 Or do you think half? Speaker 1 Of or do you think they're idiots and you're smart? Exactly. There's a ton of money in music. There's a ton of money on the master side of music. The master side makes more than publishing. Yes, simple as that. Speaker 2 Simple as that. Speaker 1 And guess what, Touring, yeah, you can maybe make more off your master side, but you have to exert way more energy. The sweat equity of like you have to touring. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 Plus, you can lose money on your first few tours you. Speaker 1 Will you? Will you will lose money? Two, it's dangerous. The fuck you got to get on a bus, plane, fly, all these different cities. You don't lose in the crowd at the meet and greet at this dog. Fuck that. You got to leave your house. I don't need to leave my house and I'm making a million a month like you got to really like for me to leave my house. Speaker 2 It's got to be a oh bro, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's got to be. Speaker 1 I tore for the love of it bro. Right? I make more money sitting at home. Speaker 2 But you don't have to, right? Yeah. Speaker 1 But it's like that whole fucking narrative of like, that shit just irks me when I see people say shit like that because I'm like, it's not true. It's not true. It's not. There is a shit ton of money on the master. There's more money in it than the pub and you can make more money on the master than touring. And there's such low overhead for the master side of things. Speaker 2 You know what's another finesse? I feel like another level of that. Yeah. And I don't know why. I mean, I don't know where this came from, but I think when people people get, they don't look at that side of things because of this term called pocket watching. I don't call it pocket watching. I call it financial literacy. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 There's pocket watching. If you're saying, oh, why did that guy go and make $10 million or $100 million, like, I deserve that. OK, look, you're looking at it from a negative perspective. But really, what you should be doing is being like, hold on. Speaker 1 How did he do that? Speaker 2 How did he do that? Yeah, right. What do you mean? OK, cool. Like that's dope. Like, how does that work? And then you start to ask the questions, right. So it's like that's where the financial literacy comes from. So when I see when I hear somebody like catalog made $100 million, how does that work? What's a multiple? What's a multiple? What does that mean? All the evaluations and all this stuff. OK, cool. That's what that's how this works. People got it confused, man. When it comes to the stuff, Yeah. Speaker 1 Bro I just can't stand that there. It's like it's 2025 bro. Y'all can't keep thinking that there's no money in music. Like there's so much out here bro. Speaker 2 Well, you know, with your multiple on your catalog and valuations and all that, would you ever sell your catalog? Because for sure it's in this 9 figure. Speaker 1 Yeah, I wouldn't. I wouldn't. How come I don't need the money? That's like the truth of it 1. I don't need the money 2 I don't know if I'd be able to like really sleep with myself. Speaker 2 Really. Speaker 1 No. And three, which kind of ties into one and two, I've been fortunate enough to touch a shit ton of money where I can wrap my head around 100 million. And what I mean by that is like, I can look at my life zoomed out, not from this emotional, Oh my God, $100 million place and be like, OK, what would you buy? And then I look at my life and I'm like, I've bought everything. So now what do you need the 100 for to look at? You know, it's like, I get it. Some of that is Peace of Mind, whatever, you know, you cushion for a rainy day, but it's like, you're going to sell to me. That's selling your soul. In my opinion, if you look at the literal definition, it's like music is the sound of the soul and you're saying that there's a price tag on it. For me, there's not. And that's not me trying to be fake noble or anything. For me, there's not a number. Speaker 2 Yeah, this is for you. Speaker 1 Personally, maybe if it was 10 billion. No, I'm kidding. There is a number. No, but truly it's like. Speaker 2 No, but if it I. Speaker 1 Thought about it and there's there's just there's nothing I need to buy. I I think I'm coming from a privileged folks approach you on it perspective. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, just there's nothing I need to buy I'm like, what would I buy? I got my house my business manager calls them like the big purchases I've done the big purchases. I got me a house, my mom 2 houses. Everyone's got crazy cars. Like I have crazy cars. I can travel on the best plane in the best seat and stay at the best hotel in the world in the most expensive room. Like I can stay in the room that Beyoncé stays in. You know what I mean? It's like what? I don't. What do I need? Yeah. What do I need to sell my catalog for that bad? Speaker 2 Yeah, there's no validation, you know, from that. I mean, you already understand what that is when it comes to your life, right? Speaker 1 Because it's like, OK, so you have the money that for me that I'm not talking about for someone who has $0.00 in the bank account for me. OK, now I just went up 100 mil. What do I do? Like. Speaker 2 Now what? Now what? Speaker 1 It's the fisherman pair of what we were talking about. It's like, right, guess what I would do tomorrow with $100 million in my bank account. Whatever I did today, it's not like, oh, now I can fly on a jet. Oh, now I can get a Rolls Royce. Oh, now I can buy my mom a house. I've done all that. I can do all that. So I don't need the money for anything. And I'm not willing to sell my songs. And then five years from now they use Losing Control in some fucked commercial for something because they own it and they're trying to get their money back. So they're plugging Losing Control and what they want and all these weird ass fucking ads and whatever and. Speaker 2 I don't agree with it and. Speaker 1 They don't align with me in in what I believe in. For what? For money I don't need. Speaker 2 Right. But you know what's double about that is that in order for you to even have that conversation, well, obviously it starts with you, but you got to have you, those conversations I'm sure happen with your team and there's got to be alignment in that. All right. So like, I love the fact from what I'm hearing is there's a lot of alignment. It's not to say that there's not. Speaker 1 No one on my team was like, take that, Yeah, no, we're all like fucked. Speaker 2 Up and it's the same thing you know, I read in your book where you're about to start the tour in Europe yeah and you're having that moment of crisis where you're like you can barely lift your. Putting yourself First Arm. Yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 And we talked about Bogus. We talked about Connor and Milan. You talk to them, Lucas and Connor 1st, and they're like, yeah, man, if you got to cancel this tour, go and cancel the tour, you talk to Milan. Milan was super supportive of them. How important is that and how much does that strengthen the relationship with everybody? Speaker 1 A lot, man. It was really supportive because putting myself first is not something I'm used to, you know? Letting people down is not something I'm used to. It's a I've always put everyone before me, whether it's my mom, whether it's my fans, whether it's just my career, like, you know, so finally taking a step and saying, Nah, bro, like I got to do this for me, you know, and having people around me that don't look at me less, you know, they're like, yeah, bro, completely get it. Like we got you was huge, man. It was huge. Still really tough, but it was big. Speaker 2 You still do with it. Speaker 1 No, I don't. I don't have regrets about canceling that tour. No, I don't have any regrets when you. Speaker 2 Have disagreements with the team? How do you productively get through it? Speaker 1 We're working on that now, man. Me and me and Milan butt heads a lot, you know. Speaker 2 That's going to happen with any manager. Speaker 1 So here's the reality, right? Conflict is going to happen. It's learning how to resolve the conflict. And me and Milan, you know, we would lock horns a lot because mistakes are going to happen. But the mistake, the conflict would be me jumping into my like, shame sort of place of like, the fuck how this happened? Why would you did that? And naturally that's going to put him on the defense, not creating like a safe environment for him to take accountability for something. So now we're going to lock horns because he's going to not take accountability because I'm coming at it from, and we both play our part in that. You know, I got to approach it different. He's got to own the mistake. But we have locked horns on that for a long time. But we recently had a great conversation that was a breakthrough of like acknowledging the pattern of conflict and how it's always the same shit and how we both got to do better. Me especially like that, I think I think that is the thing that is, you know, tough for a lot of people is owning your part, you know, own your part like and the past couple years I've been really making it a point to like own my part, you know, and understand that I'm going to make mistakes I'm flawed yeah you know what that approach wasn't great that's on me I. Speaker 2 Appreciate you saying that Russ, because most of you artists think it's never your fault. Speaker 1 Oh man, it's usually our fault. Yeah, No, bro, it's conflict's going to happen, you know, it's you got to learn how to fight. Speaker 2 What was it that that moment that you guys, what do you think led to that that breakthrough? What led to the breakthrough? 10 years of locking horns on the same shit. Speaker 2 Oh fuck. Speaker 1 We don't butt heads on anything but the same shit, which is when a mistake happens and I jump into like biting your head off, which puts you on defense, which makes you not want to take accountability, which then makes me want to bite your head off and then it just is a loot, you know, and it's just that every time that. Speaker 2 Happens to the best of us, yeah, so. Speaker 1 Kudos to Milan, though. I mean, Milan is like he's the, he's the greatest person in the world, man, just like, you know, he's the nicest guy and. Speaker 2 Yeah, he's good people. Speaker 1 And he's, he's always believed in my shit to the utmost degree. And he wants to do everything he can to make this shit elevate and evolve and weigh in and all that. So yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2 But I said kudos to both of you, man. Thank you, man. This is this. It takes two people to tango, right? Yeah, it does. So you and yo man, the reality is from our class 80 to 90% of the artists and managers don't work together anymore. Speaker 1 Yeah, wow, damn, it's. Speaker 2 True, you guys are one of the few and you're still doing amazing things and incredibly successful. Advice for new artists Is there, you know, for a newer artist, newer manager coming into this or trying to figure it out, what's the one piece of advice that you would give to them to set, you know, clear boundaries? Speaker 1 I think it's the artist. You have to, you have to understand that this is your vision and it's it's your empire, it's your label. You're running your label. At the end of the day, you're a label owner as an independent artist and you got to set the expectations and make the expectations clear from the gecko. And the expectations can't be perfection, right? They need to just be excellent. Speaker 2 Yeah, we should. Speaker 1 You know, they need to be greatness, not perfect. Greatness is not, there's no mistakes. Perfection is not real. You know, set the expectations and you can get specific with it. Like, hey, you know, if and when a mistake happens, I need you to own it. And the manager can say, all right, well, I need I hear that got you. I need you to keep your head about you when a mistake happens and not bite my head off. You know what I mean? Speaker 2 It's good advice, man, Yeah. Speaker 1 Because the the reality, man, this shit is this shit is a gauntlet navigating this shit, man. There's so much like fuckery that goes on and like, you know, just like whether it's promoters, whether it's people fucking up like the release or something. Speaker 2 What could be anything? Speaker 1 So much shit that's going to be a point of conflict of the artist having to hit the managing back. What the fuck happened, right? So there's so many opportunities to have conflict. So you need to have your conflict resolution game on point as artist and manager. Speaker 2 What do you think most artists misunderstand about what a what a good manager does? Speaker 1 I think it's case by case. I think some artists need more from their managers, need something different. I think artists, it's like it's boutique, you know? It's like managers have to sort of, it's got to be the right fit. Each artist is looking for something different. I was never an artist that needed my manager to plug me with other artists or producers. Speaker 2 You're doing that. Speaker 1 All your I was doing that, you know. Speaker 2 Well, I mean later on in your career because you were so, so self sustainable. I mean 100 percenter as you mentioned. Speaker 1 Yeah, but even later on, like Chop 2 was just me, D Ming, everyone. Speaker 2 Yeah, I Remember Me saying. Speaker 1 That you know so, but some artists might be like, hey, by the way, sorry. Speaker 2 Yeah, not to cut you out. What's that like to like? Same project I think is the EP chunk 2.5 is havoc. You got to select The Alchemist. Speaker 1 That's what's that feel like, bro. It's like that to me is I'm like living out my childhood dream. Just rapping on classic shit. Feels like downloading classics off of YouTube and just freestyling with your friends, except now you're getting actual like custom beats from these guys. Crazy. That's crazy. But yeah, I think it just depends, man. It depends on what that artist needs, you know, And I think, I think, you know, transparency is imperative from the get go of the relationship. There needs to be transparency. So you eliminate the guesswork. You know, we shouldn't be guessing what your boundary is. And you're guessing what my boundary is and I'm guessing what I think your role is and what you're supposed to do. And you're guessing what I'm supposed. Let's lay it out on the table what it's supposed to be. And like I said, that can look different for every artist, you know. Speaker 2 Are you, it sounds like to me, like you're closer to an authentic balance between your personal life and your career. Authentic Balance Between Personal Life & Career You striving for that? Speaker 1 Yeah, I am. I am. Because in the past it wasn't that. In the past it was. Did I know? Speaker 2 Deep down inside, I guess. Speaker 1 I think I think I didn't have the opportunity to have a life for a while since I blew up. I'm instantly on the road. My parents get a divorce. I'm buying my mom a house. I'm getting my dad situated. My brother got a divorce, I'm getting him situated. My sister's going to school. I'm paying for that. I'm on the road. I'm juggling a new career. I'm living out of just hotels and suitcases. And it wasn't until it wasn't until the pandemic hit was when I was like forced to curate a home life. And I got a girlfriend and I got dogs. And it's like, oh, this is nice. This is like my house now feels like a home. Speaker 2 Like a home. Speaker 1 Yeah, and I'm like, all right, well, I need to. I need to have more balance in my life, man. My, my, my mood in my overall outlook on my life is way too tied to how well my career is doing. You know, like if I put out a song, it doesn't do what I want it to do. I'm miserable and I'm irritable. And you know, it's like, Nah, man. I got to be getting happiness and fulfillment from other areas of my life. So that just because that one isn't doing what I wanted to do, I got three other things that are going well. You know, me and my girl are good. Like my dog just did something cute. I just scored 17 in a men's league game. You know what I mean? For real. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Having balance, having having multiple revenue streams of happiness, right. You know, it's like happiness revenue streams, Yeah. Speaker 2 Well, well, along those lines, there's a quote here from your book. Dark Motivation Has An Expiration Date If the only reason you want to achieve is to get approval and validation and recognition from other people, then if you receive recognition, will you lose your motivation? That is a scary prospect. But if you honor the gift, if you put in the effort, if you want to see progress and continuously work toward mastering something you love, if you chase after excellence, that's something that, regardless of external recognition, will inspire you to keep going. Dark motivation has an expiration date. Light motivation stays fresh forever. Yeah. Speaker 1 Real shit. Speaker 2 That's some real shit. Speaker 1 Man, yeah, I think for me, that's what like I'm after. Man is mastery and greatness. Speaker 2 I can see that man, it's just like night and day. I still fuck with the interviews from back in the day. Don't be interested. You might feel the type of way about it, but like, I know I could tell, but like, man, those those I would watch those things and I'd be like, man, that guy gets it. He's going. Speaker 1 For it, that's the thing, it's like there's. Speaker 2 A lot of adversity too, when you were going through and you just like you. Speaker 1 Know one person through I got it. You know what I mean? Like I can look back at those interviews and I can dissect it and be like, OK, I know what the point I was trying to make. Speaker 2 Right, right. Speaker 1 You know what I mean? It was just like there was a lot of bitterness attached to it because it was also a lot of it was coming from a Why aren't y'all fucking with me instead? Speaker 2 I did it the right way. Speaker 1 I look at me, I'm doing it the right way. Look at what I'm talking about. Look what they're talking about. Look what I'm talking about. Look what I promote, look what they promote. Why don't y'all fuck with me? That heavy? That was the undertone of that, you know, and I have this, I have this line on the new album on Wild where I say I'm trying to be direct but also give direction because in the past, a lot of my advice, interviews, tweets, whatever was just being harsh and not providing. Well, OK, point us to where you think we should be going, right? You know, like in the past I might have tweeted something like, Spotify is just fucking bullshit, right? Fuck that. Today it's like, fuck with Spotify, but I think they should hide the monthly listeners in stream counts, right? That's a direction to go in. Speaker 2 Right. Speaker 1 It's not, so you know what I mean? Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Because before you, you say something like that. Now you're on your back foot because everybody's coming at you. Speaker 1 Right. Yeah, and the message doesn't even get received, No. Speaker 2 What are you, what are you telling an artist to navigate that shit that's going through right now? Advice for artists If there's a piece of advice. Speaker 1 No matter what's going on, no matter what adversity you are facing as an artist, drop your way through it. The worst thing you can do is stop. You're going through some shit and you stop dropping. It's a rap. I agree. It's a rap 100%. That's the shit that I can. One of the many things I commend my younger self for doing. No matter what was going on, I was dropping. Speaker 2 Yeah, that that, that takes a lot, man, because when the. Speaker 1 Hate was coming in crazy. I dropped best on earth now what? Right y'all still hate. Doesn't matter though, I'm dropping. I'm not going to like because the worst thing you can do is people are tearing you down and you stay down. Speaker 2 That's big one. Yeah, we did it. They won. Speaker 1 We did it, Yeah. Like that's the worst thing you can do. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 They're tearing you down and then you stop dropping, which is just you're defeated. It's the worst thing. Fuck that. I never let that shit happen. I was dropping through everything, last fired, dropped through everything. There's nothing that a hit can't fix. Speaker 2 Nokia. Speaker 1 Tell you for real like I always tell people it hit circumvents everything. Speaker 2 Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, I've heard you say that before. Speaker 1 It doesn't matter. Like it doesn't matter what's going on, how bad you think somebody is beating. The odds are complete it hit. Does the hit will get around all that shit? Yeah. It doesn't matter. Did anyone like all the people with the Drake and Kendrick shit? It's like Drake dropped Nokia. Speaker 2 What are we talking about? Speaker 1 It's a massive record, yeah. Like, at arguably the hardest time you would think for him to drop a big song and it'd be received well. And all this, like, speculation. It's like bro like just drop a hit. Speaker 2 And then you're good. Yeah. And then you're good. And he's got them, too. And they they can both look like they're both great artists. Speaker 1 Yeah, they're both incredible. Speaker 2 It's OK to like both of them. Speaker 1 Yeah, I was just talking about this in another interview, bro. It's like, like some of these fans have just made this shit feel like weird K pop territory with those two. Yeah, it's like this shit's supposed to be rap. Speaker 2 Yeah, supposed to be competitive, man. Speaker 1 I don't know, bro, but yeah, I think as an artist you got to drop your way through everything. Even when you're struggling and going through a tough time, share that with the world. Share that with your audience via the music. You know, Make a song about it. Like shit. Don't let don't let you know the bad moment go to waste. Flip it. Speaker 2 Right. You know, right, Right. Yeah. Speaking of rappers, I'll show you something real quick. Mount Rushmore Yeah. Just want to get your your thoughts on. Speaker 1 Is this a new rapper? Speaker 2 Nope. Speaker 1 The white rapper Mount Rushmore. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean. Speaker 2 What are your thoughts on this? Speaker 1 Yeah, I was shocked that somebody had me and shit, I'm just like, I never get recognized in any sort of like, conversation for anything other than like most hated. So like, I was like, obviously it's cool that somebody considered me a part of that. I think, I mean, I think I'm, I have to, this is how I've always believed. I think I'm just one of the greatest rappers ever. Speaker 2 You got to be your biggest fan. Speaker 1 Yeah, like, I don't know, that's how I feel. I hope everyone else feels like that about themselves. But I'm my favorite artist, you know? So yeah, that shit makes sense. I don't know. And it's like the other thing is just, I saw obviously all the comments and stuff. A lot of people are just uneducated on my catalog and that's OK, you know? I get it. You just you only hear the hits. Speaker 2 If you know the catalog is pretty fucking hard to argue. Speaker 1 Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's like if you've only, if you've only heard the hits, well, it's really hard to catch a hit that's just straight bars. So the hits for me are going to be melodic. And so if you've only heard the hits, you're like, is this dude even a rapper? It's like, yeah, you just haven't heard it, you know? But that doesn't. Once again, people think that if I didn't see it, if I didn't hear it, it doesn't exist. Speaker 2 Right. Speaker 1 And it's like that's how self-centered people are. Is like, if I didn't see the come up, it didn't happen. You're an industry planet. If I never heard your raps and only heard your hits, you're not a rapper because I said so. It's like you're just uneducated. You're just admitting that you're uneducated. Speaker 2 Yeah, it's it's one of the things that you said is in again in one of your books or one of your interviews says just shut up and watch greatness. I feel bad for those people who don't fuck with LeBron James because. Speaker 1 It's crazy you're missing out bro. Speaker 2 You're missing out on so much. I have these arguments with my boys all the time because you're such a Michael Jordan stand. I'm a huge Jordans the go for me. Yeah, but I if I don't, I love Kobe. Speaker 1 Jordan's a go for me too. Like, I think I think Michael Jordan is the best basketball player ever. I think Kobe is the second best at playing basketball. I think LeBron has the greatest career out of anyone. Speaker 2 23 years at this point. Speaker 1 I think LeBron is a freaking nature. He's in his. Speaker 2 Own world. The dude's my age, bro. Speaker 1 He's 40, dropping MVP numbers. Yeah, I think they should have just given him the MVP this year just off of like the strength that just just doing it at 40. Yeah, we got 22 year olds who can't do this shit. Speaker 2 Fair, and I would say it's killing it though. Speaker 1 I I see I don't like his brand of basketball. Speaker 2 I know I saw you tweet. Speaker 1 I just don't. Speaker 2 Canadian to me is like, I don't know. Speaker 1 Brother bro and I didn't want to feed into fucking. Speaker 2 Because I get it, you you stepped into the. Speaker 1 Bro, I didn't want to feed in. I hate feeding into narratives. Like obviously I saw a lot of the tweets and the foul baiting or whatever, and I was like, let me actually watch this dude play in every game I've watched, man. I'm like, bro, I don't like players who you're trying to get a foul. Instead of trying to get a bucket, get a bucket. You know what I'm saying? Like why is every time you get, majority of the times you're getting the ball, you're trying to get a foul, try to get a bucket. Speaker 2 Try to get the bucket. That's the point of. Speaker 1 The game. I like watching people try to get a bucket. Yeah, that's beautiful basketball. It's Kobe. Yeah, bro, trying to get a bucket. I don't like watching people try to get fouls. I get it. You get your points, you win the game. That's all that matters. Get a bucket. Speaker 2 You love basketball? Speaker 1 Yeah, I love pure hoopers. Speaker 2 Yeah. Are you you doing primes? Speaker 1 I'm going to do a pro am in Vietnam is the clan. Speaker 2 Oh, crazy in. Speaker 1 October, October, November, October, November. I got to get ready though, OK, yeah, got to get my cardio up, get my fucking handle right. Big Sean & Cloudy opening for The Clan You get that right in the tour, man. You got Big Sean. Yeah. Cloudy opening over the tour. Amazing to see that man. Speaker 1 Such a cool package. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm honored, bro. It's like, you know, I, I didn't think that he would be down. I didn't think that Black would be down last year. Yeah, you know, because I'm just like, you guys are massive artists on your own, right, you know? But I just thought it would be a cool fucking package. Like, I like their music and I know my fans like their music. So I'm like, why not? Like, this is cool, you know? And it worked out really well with Black last year. Speaker 2 He's just like one of the best dudes in this business. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 Man super chill, humble. Speaker 1 Yeah, we're trying to. We're trying to damn near Adam to this one again too, just to run it back. Yeah, because I'm just like. Speaker 2 He's the fan of the guy you like. Speaker 1 Yeah, it's like, it's just great, you know? Speaker 2 Yeah, that's dope. I mean, it it it does take like a lot of what's the word I'm looking for, you know, for Big Sean opening up for you, because I think a lot of people may have looked at that. I was like, oh, that's interesting. But I think it's like a it's, I don't know. It's just like, yeah, like, why not? Yeah, you know what I mean? If it makes sense. Speaker 1 Yeah, I think it's people don't understand touring is it's own business. It's based off ticket sales. Speaker 2 Right, you know what I mean exactly. Speaker 1 So it's not like perception and and all that. It's like it's still, it's still just based off of ticket sales. That's it. So there's, you know, there's a, there's a lot of guys and a lot of people who, you know, just are maybe out of touring for years. Like they haven't toured, they haven't like touched the road like that. So, you know, I know Sean hasn't toured in that long. Speaker 2 In a long time. Speaker 1 So I'm sure once he builds that up, like arenas, you know what I mean? But it's like, you know, I've just always been really, really consistent with touring so. Speaker 2 I think. Speaker 1 The ticket buying audience for me is there. Speaker 2 You recognize that early on in your career that the hard ticket is the most important thing. That's how you could be #1 over here. You could have the most rooms over here. But if you can't sell at an arena, I mean like, what are we talking about? Speaker 1 Yeah, well, because that's the only thing I can believe. Speaker 2 Bro yeah. Speaker 1 You know the strange It's hard to, like, believe numbers on the screen. It's easy to believe bodies and seats. Speaker 2 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, man. Yeah, I heard you say this as well. What does the future of Rust look like? People ask you who are you a fan of? You said I'm a fan of myself. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 What does the future Rust look like, man? Speaker 1 I don't know. I don't know, you know, part part of me, part of me, I think wants to find this nice balance where I have intention of who I want to be, but I'm open for the reroute. I'm down to be pleasantly surprised. And I think I've lived my life strangleholding life and not allowing any room for God's hands to touch my life. You know what I mean? Because it's like, I don't trust you. I only trust me. So I got it. Watch out. I'm going to make it go like this. I'm going to make it be this. And I think now I'm trying to get to this place where I'm intentional about with who I want to become. I want to be in better shape mentally, physically, spiritually, all that. I want to express myself more authentically than ever. I want to play big press forward, you know, go after my potential. But I'm also trying to allow enough room to be pleasantly surprised by God's plan and Universe's plan, you know? Yeah. Speaker 2 Later on in your life, you're starting to figure that out. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 Better let them never, man. Yeah, straight up. Yo. I really appreciate the time man. Speaker 1 Yeah, this is a fucking great combo, man. Speaker 2 Thank you, bro. Yeah, thank you, man. I'm just a big fan of you and your music and everything you stand for. And there's a lot of growth here. You know, I wasn't, I kind of knew what to expect in this conversation a little bit. But like, I love how you just diving into this, just trying to figure out just the better yourself, not even for the sake of the career, but for you. The Power of Being Honest Yeah. You know. Speaker 1 What I mean, it's also just being more honest and open kind of like releases you from the shackles of anxiety sometimes for me, like the more honest I am in conversations, the more honest I am with myself, the more honest I am in my music, I don't feel so pent up because I think some of that pent upness is this deep desire to be known, a truly known. And the more I open up, the more known I feel. The more relaxed I am, the less I open up, the more hidden I feel. And now I'm, you know, so I think just being honest is a good path forward. Speaker 2 Not as dope, I'll say. I'll say in in a honestly speaking to like with this podcast that that was my like the reverse. Because for me, if I'm being very honest, I felt like I had something here and I feel like the conversations weren't happening at the high level with people in the business. And I before I started this, but I sat on this idea for seven years because I was so nervous to get in front of a camera. Oh wow, wow, Because I thought it would be good. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 So like I the the. Speaker 1 So you sat on this idea for seven years out of that fear of putting yourself out there more? Speaker 2 Yeah, and then I was also like managing justice. So it was like hard to do both of. Speaker 1 Them it was a good excuse. Speaker 2 It's a great excuse. Yeah, it was a great excuse, yeah. But I will say this, I was also those, you know, fuck, what if I put something on? It doesn't go well and everything, Sure. But I I came back to your one song a week and I said to myself, my first episode was with Troy. Wow. And I was like, you know what, even if it doesn't go crazy or whatever, who cares? Just go next week, next week. So I resonate a lot with that. So like I drop an episode every two weeks. I'm going to start doing it every week. And a lot of that came from your mentality and how you do your thing. And it just kind of seeing that catalog compound. I was and now it's getting to a point I was like, this is starter. Speaker 1 Consistency pays off bro. Speaker 2 Consistency is everything, man. Speaker 1 I think, I think you're don't even waste your time looking at the scoreboard until you're, you know, 100 episodes in. Speaker 2 Yeah, the Russell says that. Speaker 1 Yeah, it's like, why? Like what? It's, you know, what's the point? Speaker 2 Yeah, we'll, we'll get there. I think we're on episode 31 or 32. Speaker 1 Oh yeah, I mean, this is like. Speaker 2 Doubling, you know. Speaker 1 Yeah, it's like, well, I was just man, like 30 songs in. Was straight from limbo 2012. I dropped, you know, 470 songs after that. Speaker 2 Jesus. Speaker 1 Like that's what trips me out is when I get Adm from somebody and they're like, I just discovered you. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 Right now on song 500. Speaker 2 Crazy. Speaker 1 What if I didn't put out song 500? Speaker 2 Right. Speaker 1 You got to keep going. Speaker 2 Wow, yeah, new fans are just discovered now. Speaker 1 You gotta keep going. Speaker 2 I hope I'm sure new fans are going to discover you here, man. Yeah, bro, maybe. I think. I think most of my audience knows who you are. Speaker 1 No, but still, it's like it's a deeper point of connection. Yeah, it's beautiful, bro. Speaker 2 Appreciate you brother. Speaker 1 Thank you. Great man. Yeah, thank you. This was awesome bro.