The Man Who Controls a UFO Fleet With His Mind

Do you think Ted Owens was an alien? This is a guy who could point his finger and lightning would strike where he pointed. And he said to me, "This is going to be one of the biggest UFO sightings ever." Said it will be seen by hundreds of people, and that happened about four days later. That is crazy. Ingos Juan claimed to have used remote viewing to travel to the moon where he believed there were aliens who forced him off. Thinking aloud, "Hello and welcome. I'm Jeffrey Mishlove." I'm here with one of my heroes who has hosted for the last few decades one of the most incredible shows. I recently interviewed people who suggest that the intention is to build a civilization where humans and aliens will be living together. The ancient gods, the Anunnaki, perform genetic experiments on our primate ancestors. It seems like a lot of religions, at least at their sort of more esoteric core, were centered around the liberation of the soul from the body. I would only qualify that by suggesting that while we use language that says the soul separates from the body, it might be almost the opposite. It might be like going deeper into the body. Have you ever had spooky things happen to you? Christmas Eve 1985. I got a phone call from Ted Owens. And in his big booming voice, he said, "You have to notify the U.S. government not to send up the next space shuttle. Because if they do, my UFOs are going to knock it right out of the sky." A few weeks later, the challenger explosion occurred. That is wild. I'm here with one of my heroes, Jeffrey Mishlove, who has hosted for the last few decades. One of the most incredible shows called New Thinking Allowed. And it explores the frontiers of human consciousness, UFOs, parapsychology, survival of the soul, after bodily death. All sorts of incredibly important topics at the fringe of human epistemology and knowledge. And you do it with such a child-like curiosity, but also intensity. And it's amazing. And so I'm just so grateful to be here with you. I'm happy to be here. Thank you. I want to talk to you about an interesting essay contest, U1. A lot of people in my audience might have heard of Robert Bigelow in the context of UFOs. Because he's a, you know, the budget sweet's billionaire who was supposed to actually get UFO material from Lockheed Martin in 2008. And with Bigelow Aerospace, his company is involved in some UFO material study, it seems. And then he ends up with it with a fascination and deep interest in near-death experiences. And survival of the soul after, after death. And he sets up this essay contest. And you win the essay contest? Robert had gone through some changes in his life. I think if I recall correctly, his Aerospace company had been shut down by the governor of Nevada during the COVID crisis. They, in effect, decided it was a non-essential business. And he had a large staff. And he had to let them go at the same time around then his wife died. And he decided to switch his emphasis. He knew that, at least in his mind, and I would agree with him, the two big, unsolved problems facing humanity have to do with the nature of UFOs and the nature of survival after death. And he didn't feel like he could study them both at the same time. But he felt that it was time to switch from UFO, UAP activity, to look at the question of survival. And to begin with, he thought he would issue this essay competition. And I want to get into your submission, which is fascinating. And it's public for everyone to see. But before that, I find it very interesting that certain people like Robert Bigelow transition from this kind of hyper-capitalist nuts and bolts. I want to figure out how the UFO technology works. Maybe he's looking at the technology or maybe, again, this transfer from Lockheed Martin gets blocked by Glenn Gaffney, the director of CIA's Science and Technology Division. Unclear kind of what happens there and how much progress he makes. But then he gets into the soul and mysticism and parapsychology. You've also had on Nick Cook, who wrote a whole book about nuts and bolts anti-gravity. And he went through a similar transition, where now he's writing about parapsychology. So I find that fascinating. Well, I think it goes all the way back to at least the 1960s to the Betty and Barney Hill case, if not earlier, probably much earlier. There's always been this intangible, consciousness-related aspect to the UFO mysteries. Everyone who is experienced, in fact, who is the fellow Arnold who first reported UFOs and. Kenneth Arnold. Kenneth Arnold, in 1947. I believe his daughter is now written a book talking about the mysterious paranormal experiences he had following his first sightings. So it's pretty much always been there and sort of kept under the carpet because people weren't ready. Society wasn't ready to deal with these two mysteries at once. Even when I was a graduate student at Berkeley in the 1970s, and I began doing research with this fellow Ted Owens, who claimed to be in telepathic contact with aliens. One of my professors in parapsychology dropped off the committee because he said, "We just can't combine these two fields. It's hard enough to have one parapsychence without having the social repercussions of trying to do two at the same time." Well, you need to do two at the same time. As the great biologist, E.O. Wilson, discussed "consilience" and matching up disparate domains is how you make progress. An interdomain kind of discipline, I think is really important. So if something is phenomenologically true but can't be encapsulated in some sort of repeatable scientific process, it doesn't make it not true or not subject to scientific scrutiny. That's how I've always felt. I know. I'm preaching to the choir. The truth is that we live in a world where there are many narrow academic disciplines and they don't often speak to each other. Interdisciplinary scholarship is still relatively rare. You said you were friends with a man named Ted Owens who claimed to be in contact with extraterrestrial beings. He's known as the PK man. Do you want to give just the audience a little bit of context as to who he was? Well, in 1969 he published his book called How to Contact Space People. I learned about it not long after that because I had friends who were into UFOs and they thought this is unusual. This guy is telling us how to actually achieve a telepathic communication with what he called space intelligences and he demonstrated that he could do this by a whole series of amazing things. Many other things. Power blackouts and controlling the weather and UFO sightings. This was all documented in his original book along with affidavits. He was studied by Russell Targ and Hal put off at Stanford Research Institute who started the CIA Psychic Spy program, isn't that right? Well, almost correct. He reached out to them. They had become relatively well-known because of their work with Erie Geller, the Israeli psychic who was world famous and they had published in some scientific journals about their work with Geller. So Owens reached out to them and you know said, why are you wasting time with him? I'm the world's greatest son. But they wanted nothing to do with him. actually, because they were getting funding from the CIA and they were already in their minds to public with Erie Geller. They didn't want another flamboyant psychic to be associated with them. So in February 1976, they had invited me to SRI to experience remote viewing, which I did and had a very successful trial at the time, but they were all abuzz about Ted Owens because they'd been ignoring him, ignoring him, ignoring him. And finally, he had shortly before my visit sent him a message saying, "I'm going to prove to you guys that I'm real," California was experiencing a bad drought at the time. And he said, "I'm going to show you what I can do. I'm going to end this drought, and it's going to happen within a couple of days. The newspapers where you are will publish an article saying the drought is over at the time the articles were saying no end in sight to the drought. And furthermore, you'll know that I did it because there will be every kind of strange weather, snow, and hail, and sleet, and UFO sightings, which is one of my trademarks. And all of that happened within a few days. And so they said, "Somebody's got to look into this, but we can't." So they said, "Would you please take our files and get them out of our office and follow up, which I did. I worked with Owens for 11 years from 1976 to 1987 when he died." Fascinating. Did you witness firsthand any of this stuff, the ability to summon lightning on command, control hurricanes, control the weather? Well, these things happened while I was studying him, but I didn't witness them in the sense that I wasn't present as they occurred. They were reported in newspapers, many, many things. And he would sort of call his shot, and then the thing would happen, is that correct? He would send out letters to me and to other scientists, yet a handful, who were at least keeping files on him. And of course, I had all the files from put off in targ, along the way other researchers sent their files to me, so I've collected an archive and I've kept it for decades. What are some of the most striking specific examples of predictions that he made? Well, I'll tell you the single most striking one. I had been ignoring him for a while because, frankly, he was a difficult person. He wanted desperately for scientists and the government to pay attention to him. And he was being ignored. And as a result of that, he said, I'm declaring war against the United States government. And I would get newspaper clippings of polter geist attacks on Navy vessels and strange things like that. And then there was one thing he would say that he was attributing that to himself. Oh, yes. He would say, I'm haunting this Navy vessel. We're using psychokinesis. Wow. Is it what he claimed? Or it varied at different times. He said, Oh, I'm not using psychokinesis. I sent telepathic messages to my friends, the space intelligences, mantid-like beings in an invisible giant UFO hovering over the earth. And they do it. And the mantid beings, they were in touch with light beings that were above them, right? It was like the mantids were somehow intermediaries. Well, he would say that they are really energy beings, but when they take a form, it's sort of like a large insect. Interesting. Well, this is so fascinating because it makes me think that some of the quote unquote UFO disclosure stuff going on right now is sort of a misdirection towards this like nuts and bolts machinery thing because if there's a person who can create a poltergeist hysteria on a Navy ship, you have to think that that's being systematically done vis-a-vis, you know, American adversaries all the time. And then they're probably doing it to us as well. And some of this stuff we think of as sort of nuts and bolts is really sort of some consciousness projection or something. Well, maybe the truth of the matter is that mind and body or physical matter and mental things are really all one and that we have been lulled into not appreciating the vast potential of our own consciousness. And Owens was one of the people who broke out of that early in his life for various reasons. How does he say he broke out of that? They're different stories. He would claim that the space intelligences were watching him since childhood. He would claim that they discovered he had the most powerful nervous system of anybody they had ever encountered since Moses. And he claimed that the aliens he worked with he called the space intelligences. He also had names for them. He called them Twitter and Twitter. He said there were two of them. And he gave him those names because he said when they communicated it was like a high-pitched squeaky sound. And he said they arranged for him to have all of these different professions in order that he would have a mind that was flexible enough to interact with them telepathically. Fascinating. It was like he was being primed for communication. You're a geeller as a similar story of being abducted. I think as a young child and then he gained his psychic powers that way. But he would also claim that on one occasion he was driving along a highway in Texas as I recall. And one day he found himself on the road next to his car or truck as it was surrounded by a whole circle of tarantulas spiders. And when he got back into the car he realized that they had operated on his brain and accelerated whatever native abilities he already had. Wild. It's very wild and I don't know how to evaluate it. But to get to your original question the most unusual thing. I was just explaining I had been ignoring him. He had predicted a major earthquake for example as part of his attack on the U.S. government and nothing happened. And at that point I just did other things. I didn't pay attention to him until Christmas Eve 1985. And in his big booming voice he said, Jeffrey, this is the most important phone call you will ever receive. I guess he wanted my attention. And he said, it's up to you now. You have to notify the U.S. Because if they do my UFOs are going to knock it right out of the sky. Really? Yes. That's what he said. And I ignored him because first of all he for the last few years he'd been either silly little poltergeist activity fires. For example the board naval vessels and attacks on nuclear power plants. Those were also documented. But the earthquake prediction was totally off base. And besides which I was a nobody. At the time I did have my doctoral degree in parapsychology. But I had been libeled. I was fighting a libel suit. The U.S. government wasn't going to listen to me. And I didn't even know who to talk to. So I ignored him. But then a few weeks later the challenger explosion occurred. And I was, you couldn't imagine just shaken completely. It happened just over one minute into flight. That is wild. Do you think, do you have any evidence outside of his statement? I mean that's it seems like an eerily accurate prediction. Do we have any evidence that there was some sort of interference with the challenger from an outside object? Not to my knowledge. Yeah, not to mine either. But this is a very interesting data point. I don't know if you know this. There's a NASA mission controller whose name is Tim Taylor and he claimed to be part of a secret space program. But he also and get like all sorts of interesting downloads. And he also was the NASA mission controller for that Challenger mission where Judith Res neck ended up passing, and he took it really hard. It was really hard on him. And I just I wonder, I wonder if, you know, there was some sort of transmission that was ignored elsewhere or something. I mean, who knows? I have heard of others. Interesting. You've heard of others. Yes. I don't have all the details, but I was contacted after I gave a talk for it. A small foundation, and it was active in the San Francisco Bay area at the time called the foundation for mind-being research. And I talked about this event. And afterwards, I heard from them saying they knew of another channel or somewhere who had made the same prediction. Interesting. And then there was the time where, I believe, Tetoans was so pissed off at being rejected by the Stargate crew by Hal put off in Russell Targ that he said, "I'm going to do some hundred day UFO apparition marathon." And this was also to prove to you how effective he was, right? And then there's literally a newspaper clipping from Sonoma of UFOs appearing in the sky. Well, I set up the experiment at that point. In February 1976, I got the files from Put Off in Targ. That summer, July or August, I actually met Owens at a conference in London. And what happened there was a drought in London. And put off in Targ, although they wanted nothing to do with Owens, had arranged for a little news article to be published in Psychic Magazine, no longer exists, but it was active back then, talking about what had happened in Palo Alto and in California, ending a drought. So people in London were experiencing terrible drought. It was so bad that they were bringing water by truck to some of the outlying communities. And again, the newspapers were saying, "No end in sight to the drought." So they reached out to Owens to end that drought and ended up inviting him to a conference sponsored by the Paris Science Foundation, the University of London in the summer of '76. So I met him there and befriended him. And he agreed to work with me. And at that point, asked him, "Could he set up a UFO demonstration for me?" And he immediately responded. He said, "Yes, I'm going to create three UFO sightings within a 90-day period within a hundred miles of San Francisco." And he did just that? Not quite. Sort of. His prediction was every day. And this was just a. No, not every day. I wasn't every day. No, no, three. Three over 90 days within a hundred miles. And I was a graduate student. So I figured, "I've got to try and make this as scientific as possible." And I reached out to colleagues in San Diego, which is a city of comparable population, and said, "We each sent out letters to all the law enforcement agencies within a hundred miles to see if we could collect information about any UFO reports." So there was. First there was one, a person in Concord, California, walking in the middle of the downtown streets at 4 a.m. had no interest in UFOs, but claimed that he had been abducted right off of the street and downtown Concord. And we interviewed him at scene legitimate enough. He wasn't looking for publicity. He filed a police report, etc. And so I was on the phone once again with Owens talking about, you know, what was going on. We were in regular communication. And he said to me, "Jeffrey, I can feel it coming." He said, "This is going to be one of the biggest UFO sightings ever." He said, "It will be seen by hundreds of people. It will be photographed. And the photograph will be published on the front page of one of your local newspapers." And that happened about four days later. And that was over a Sonoma State College, as it was then known in Ronert Park, California, about 50 miles north of San Francisco. The art department was holding a special artistic event with a pilot named Stephen Polesky, who had a little airplane with smoke trailing out the back, making designs in the sky. So that was his art form. And so the whole art department, about a hundred people, were out there with their cameras and videotape in December 1976. And a UFO appeared right over the campus, about 3,000 feet above the campus. And it was seen by the pilot. And from the ground, it was photographed. The photograph was published on the front page of the Berkeley Gazette, right in the San Francisco Bay Area. And it was videotape. The videotape was broadcast on the Channel 9, even in news. That's wild. It's pretty crazy. And there are people on record who witnessed him seeming to summon lightning as well, right? Correct. Who are those people? There was an attorney in Philadelphia. This is back in the 1960s. It was described in Owens book. There was an affidavit from the attorney, Sidney Margulies, saying that he was taking a break from work. I guess they go into the stairwell of this high rise building where Owens was working as a typist for the law office. And Owens was bragging. He said, "I can make lightning strike." And the attorney said, "Oh, I don't believe that." Owens said, "You tell me where you would like to see lightning." And at the time, it was a cloudy day. There was light rain, but there was no lightning. And the attorney said, "Well, over there, the Camden Bridge, leading from Philadelphia in toward New Jersey." And Owens pointed his finger at the bridge and, according to the affidavit. 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It's so fascinating that the historic personality is impossible to decouple with the powers. I think you see that a lot. You see that with people like Yuri Geller, too. So the CIA took me to Stanford Research Institute. Drawings were done miles away, and I had to receive those drawings telepathically. One drawing was done while I was in Palo Alto and a CIA agent in Langley, Virginia, and I knew exactly what it was holding in his hand. You're like, "Really, this guy?" Like, he was like endowed with all these gifts, and then I think if you look a little more deeply, you speak to people at the Paralab at Princeton and other places that studied him. I think there often is a kernel of some magic. That's going on beyond, I guess, in Yuri's case, he was a stage magician as well, and there are probably things he faked. So it's always very confusing, you know, but it's fascinating nonetheless. And it feels like Ted Owens' legacy is being vindicated by all this modern UFO disclosure stuff that really is centered around the human being and an individual's ability to attract these paranormal experiences. If you look at the testimony of Jake Barber, or even look at the people under Bigelow, you know, studying it, you know, stuff at Skinwalker Ranch, these things seem to sort of follow them home. You talk about the hitchhiker effect, and I share that most of my experience has been positive, but I haven't shared that stuff has followed me home, and that my family sees it. We have stuff show up over our house. And it's more about the people. It's almost like disclosure is like disclosing ourselves to ourselves. You know, that's more somehow significant than this sort of materialist reductionist nuts and bolts. You know, there's a craft and it's in a hangar somewhere narrative. Well, they could both be true. I think the idea of the kind of wild personality that is gifted in this way goes back to the Prophet Elijah. In the Bible, who did something similar, calling down lightning, he had a battle against the priests of Baal to see whether our God or their God would light this sacrificial fire. Yeah, it's so interesting. Some people just seem to be in doubt with some of these things, and then it feels like sort of weakly entangled with reality, or hard to repeat in this perfect way. And what do you attribute that to you? Like it feels like whatever was going on in the Old Testament times, those prophets seem to be able to will these things and harness them in a more sort of one-to-one clear way. Yeah, there's this idea I learned when I was young and taking religious education that these things no longer happen. They belong in biblical times, but God has decided that we don't need them anymore. I think that's just putting on the blinders. These things are still going on, and Owen's desperately wanted to work with scientists. I have in the files over a hundred demonstrations of this type that he performed, but they're not mechanical, 100%. They don't work that way. I suppose you could say like quantum physics. They have a statistical underpinning. Yes. Well, if you were an establishment power structure, you might be threatened by people like that. Because they can attract all sorts of attention, and I'm sure cults form around people like that. Have you heard of the prophet Yahweh? The prophet Yahweh was a fellow who lived in Las Vegas back in the day when I lived there as a matter of fact. And he also claimed he could summon UFOs and a local TV crew took him up on his challenge. They went to a local park in Las Vegas, and he said, you know, keep your eyes in the sky. It's going to happen. And all of a sudden something strange appeared in the sky, and they videotaped it and reported it on the evening news. This guy says the Old Testament written in Hebrew taught him how to summon UFOs. I pray, oh, Yahweh, that you sent a sighting so that they know that I am not mentally ill. I think something straight up. Oh, look at it. There it is. Let's take a closer look here. It's an orange sphere that appeared out of nowhere. Yeah, that is a wild video because you see the reporter going in all smug. Like I'm going to dismiss this guy. And then he comes out and he's like, that looks like something showed up. And you see the kind of ontological shock and integration process in real time with this reporter. Well, they've subsequently I think people have looked at it and said he had a colleague an associate who released a balloon. Which is, you know, there's no evidence that that actually happened, but it's an alternative hypothesis. Yeah, they're always alternative hypotheses. And then those alternative hypotheses are often morphing constantly and weaker than just the thing happened. And you know, it's funny. I think of like Occam's razor, which comes from William of Occam in the 13th century. You know, that originally and its original connotation meant, you know, the least amount of entities was responsible for a thing happening. And so at the time, it would have been God in many cases. It was sort of a way to justify miracles. And now Occam's razor is just because we're living in this age of disenchantment, this sort of materialist reductionist soup that we're all swimming in. It now is like this heuristic that rationalists used to explain anything magical away. And I find that to be such an interesting transition that show it shows that the same heuristic is used in diametrically opposed way because undergirding that heuristic is just this pre-leveraging of society to like believe in magic and not believe in magic. And so there's this sort of like fundamental mythology that, you know, underpins what we believe at any given moment. And if you're an enlightenment rationalist skeptic in the modern day, you can say you're immune to that, but you're clearly not. You're pre-leveraged by the rationalist thing. Well, I'd suspect that there's a deeper evolutionary struggle going on between you could say predator and prey that, you know, the prey are always finding different ways to elude the predator. And the predator is always finding different ways to overcome those mechanisms. Obviously people know that psychic abilities could be an incredible weapon in the hands of a predator. So one of the defense mechanisms against that would be to establish a cultural norm that's as all of this is impossible. So in go swan, for example, a great psychic, one of the godfathers of remote viewing has suggested that humans are capable of vastly greater psychic functioning than we normally exercise, but it's sort of been conditioned out of us. I think it has. And you read the kind of 19th century gentleman journey or anthropologists, you know, the ones before it became this sort of solidified field. People like, you know, JG Frazier, for example, you read the golden bow. And it's like all these tribes that were formerly uncontacted had forms of homeopathic and sympathetic magic, where it was, you know, either the use of like sort of the likeness of a person. So be like a voodoo doll or be like hair teeth and nails in the form of sympathetic magic. And in these sort of closed circles, belief would become reality. And it was incredibly powerful. And then I think if you end up in this more kind of atomized, disparate society, you know, that gets that gets lost. And especially if the pervading mythology is just, you know, scientific skepticism. I have heard I don't have any firsthand information, but that the so-called legacy program working with what they called psionic assets to lure UFOs has been reaching out to people from native cultures around the world, especially young children who have never been taught that this is impossible. It is basically these people who are psionic assets who have been screened from third world countries that they use them. Yeah, I've heard that as well. And I've heard there are people sometimes mysteriously missing from those native cultures. I know somebody who studies this in census data, it's sort of a dark area that, you know, freaks me out to be totally honest. But they definitely are systematically looking for, you know, often children who have nonverbal, autistic, you know, predispositions, but just abilities to perform telepathy, telekinesis. Basically, like kind of 11 and stranger things, you know, but like that's real. And I find actually very similar kind of phenomena with 11 and stranger things in Ted Owens bringing it back. She requires getting angry for her powers. So when she is sort of backed into a corner, it requires a lot of her, but she gets all, you know, kind of goes into like super sane mode, she gets like really kind of amped up. And then something paranormal happens around her. And that seems to be true of Ted Owens as well from your book, the P.K. Man. Another example would be Ted Sirios, the famous thought photographer who was a Chicago bell hop studied by Julisenbud, the psychiatrist who produced these images on Polaroid film. I think very authentic from my point of view, although the skeptics have attacked it viciously and unfairly, but he would get drunk basically in order to perform this act of psychokinesis. And Owens liked to do something very similar. He would occasionally sit in his living room, smoking cigars and drinking whiskey any day of two or three TV sets going on. with football games. And he would try and influence the outcome of the football games from a state of intoxication. That's so wild. Yeah, if only people knew just how real I think this all is. And it's, you know, you have JB Ryan, who actually worked with Ted Owens for a long time. He was the founder of the first real official kind of Paris psychology institute, the Ryan Institute at Nellie University at Duke, 1931, I believe. And so yeah, everybody that studies these things at Duke at Stanford Research Institute at Pear, the Princeton, you know, engineering and anomalous research lab under Bob John, who was the dean of their engineering school. They're all these very serious people. You yourself are the first person to kind of officially study it at Berkeley, parapsychology. I think I'm the only person in the world ever to have achieved an accredited doctoral diploma that says parapsychology right on the diploma. That's my unique distinction. But there are hundreds of people who have done doctoral research on parapsychological topics. It's just that their degrees didn't say parapsychology. And the larger point is that people like yourself who seem lucid, rational, very smart, all, you know, spend decades of their lives looking at this stuff. Often, you know, you can't really argue with the experimental protocol. It's like a random event generator tied to something like radioactive isotope decay or, you know, some quantum tunneling effect or a double slit experiment with, you know, 50% slid A, 50% slip B. And you get really statistically significant effects when an observer is present who wants the output to skew towards, you know, slid A or slip B. And you can't really explain that away. You can always say things like, oh, it's pee hacking and file drawer and, you know, survivorship bias, whatever. But all of these serious people go in often skeptical to into the study of this stuff. And they come out and they say, I think there's something statistically significant here. There's no question that there is something statistically significant. The real question is what? Is it, for example, mind over matter or is it precognition? That is still a hot debate within the parapsychology community. We're always going to attempt to, you know, engage in these physicalist frameworks of these things like, oh, if we just figure out that orchestrated objective reduction works and penrose was right, then it's, you know, the mind is a quantum mechanical system and then we're rendering reality and then we can affect the ones in zero. I have a feeling it's not just like one more step like that and we've got it solved. I think it's probably way more complicated and involves probably a paradigm that turns time on its head. And so, you know, do we have math that lines up with that currently? Like maybe quantum mechanics points to that, but Schrodinger's equation would be an effective equation that's couched within that, just like Newton is couched within Einstein. So I think we'd need a fundamental paradigm shift and we are in the stone age on all this stuff when it comes to these sorts of conversations. There may be certain logical limits like the great logician who worked with Einstein who showed the limits of logic. No system is ever capable of explaining itself. Oh, Kurt Gertel. Yes, of course. Gertel's logical and completeness theorem and completeness theorem. I think applies here and since we're talking about consciousness is consciousness itself capable of explaining itself. Yeah, it's the icing, the eye. It's a fundamental problem. The point is, is that I think while academia is caught up in what's the next theory of everything, how can we explain this, turn it into math and make it perfectly repeatable? I think aerospace and the government has been systematically exploiting it for the last 50 years and so from stargate and onwards, maybe arguably even earlier, you know, they've been systematically using remote viewing methods. You knew Andrei Puharich and he was sort of the father of MK Ultra and they were summoning this council of nine extra terrestrial beings, but he was a serious kind of neuroscientist at Northwestern before that. And so now you end up with today, you have this UFO legacy program, which is really just trying to gather up the most parapsychologically powerful people in the US. Like that's roughly what they're trying to do from your understanding. I don't know. Yeah, okay. I don't have any privilege and access to what the legacy program is. Well, have you heard of these like, like, it seems like the gifted and talented education system is like acting like or has acted like a funnel for this sort of thing in the past where they find talented students, they drink this pink drink, they'll wear these headphones, hear these tones, and try to sometimes affect certain materials with their mind, that sort of thing. I have heard that, but I have to admit, until I get more evidence, I keep an open mind and because there's a history of people fabricating stories. So I mean, I would like more solid evidence as to what the legacy program actually has done. I want to close the loop on human personality and its survival of bodily death, which is actually the title of a great book by Friedrich Myers, who's one of the original parapsychologists. And I think you wrote that in the 1870s. And so you wrote this amazing essay as a submission to Robert Bigelow. And what is the exact thesis? Well, Bigelow asked for an essay on the strongest evidence that human consciousness will survive permanent bodily death. And my essay, basically said, it's not a single line of evidence. The strongest evidence is that from nine different directions, we have evidence for this, everything from mediumship to people who work with what's called EVP or ITC. ITC is instrumental trans communication. EVP is electronic voice phenomena. In other words, people claim that they're communicating with their deceased friends and relatives using radios and computers and television sets. That's fascinating. I know about mediums. I didn't know people are using electronics to communicate with. There are probably tens of thousands of hobbyists working in that area. And it's very common amongst ghost hunter shows all over TV these days. They have a different devices called the spirit box, which goes through randomly selected radio channels. And people sometimes say they're getting messages that way. I've heard of some striking examples that occur. And even instances where images will appear on a TV set and will be photographed. And the TV set wasn't plugged in. I was just with a friend who tragically lost his sister. And he was saying that he saw a medium and the medium immediately started kind of ragging on him the way that his sister did. So the medium was like, what are you wearing? That's so ridiculous or something. And immediately, he just knew. And then from there, it was like all of these unique details about things that only she would know. Like it tends if not 100 plus of these details. And if you were to use the scientific method against that, the p-values of figuring those sorts of things out that what are the odds? Somebody could do that through cold reading or you can access this information online. It's not documented in his case. He gave me some of the examples, but I want to anonymize this somewhat. And so you hear countless stories about this sort of thing, but it's all just disregarded. Well, even in the parapsychology community, it's very controversial. The alternative hypothesis is that, well, the medium was psychic. It was ESP. It doesn't mean that the deceased person is actually alive in a spirit world. But originally, parapsychology really did look into this question. And it's actually the exception to the rule to find a culture that believes that, you know, the human soul or personality doesn't survive the body as you point out so eloquently in your essay. And the final thing I would say is even if you look at physics itself, E equals MC squared. So you have energy and matter conversion. So where does the matter go? It just goes into the ground. But then there's a lot more going on than right now and in a live human than just matter. So where's the energy go? You know, like, there seems like, you know, if we have conservation of energy, it seems like there's an energy loss going on in death or there's not. And there's stuff going on around us and we just can't see it. There's also conservation of information and to take things a step further, Einstein's theory of relativity would tell us and it's been confirmed experimentally that if you're a photon traveling at the speed of light, you can go from one end of the universe to the other end and takes no time at all. So space and time disappear. Speaking of space and time disappearing, you have an incredibly fascinating interview. You have so many. But with Michael Talbot, who wrote the holographic universe tragically died at a very young age. But he was really trying to reconcile kind of hardcore physics with this idea that the universe was sort of this holographic emanation of your mind. The program was studying memory and found that there's evidence that the brain operates holographically. And Born was studying subatomic physics and found that on the subatomic level the fabric of reality seems to possess properties that are reminiscent of a hologram. So if you put those two ideas together that our brain seems to be holographic and the universe is holographic, it suggests that maybe it's compelling evidence that the universe may be a kind of hologram, not that it's literally a hologram, but that it's a good metaphor or a way of understanding the universe. He was brilliant and he was a good friend. I visited him at the hospital before his death. And the irony of Michael Talbot's death is that he had written a novel about a vampire novel in which he claimed that vampireism was a rare form of leukemia. And then he contracted a rare form of leukemia that killed him. Wow. That is crazy. Jesus. Oh man, that is so weird. And that's like a horrible synchronicity. But it feels, it feels, do you think that was like coded somehow? You know, some of these guys that get to the brink of human epistemology sometimes feel like they're in danger or weird things happen to them. There's, I don't know if you're familiar with Jacobo Grinberg. Yes. So this guy is studying this idea that the humans exist in the sort of lattice matrix of consciousness. And he sort of says he figured it out and you know, he goes missing. And I think the last note he writes is about how he figured it out or whatever. And then he's never sort of found again. He was never found again. We have a program about that on the new thinking allowed channel with Alex Gomez Marin who studied that case. Grinberg was a friend of Puharic incidentally. Another example of this sort of thing would be Elizabeth Targ, the daughter of Russell Targ who was a psychiatrist and doing brilliant medical research on psychic healers. She was looking at geoblastoma, which are brain tumors, very deadly brain tumors. And she was working with healers to heal the geoblastoma tumor when she contracted one herself and died in her early 40s. Jesus. That's horrible. Do you suspect there's now been this sort of missing scientist's narrative? Yeah. And I think I am in a kind of a middle ground spot on the topic where can I say with confidence there's been a statistical speed up of scientific suppression? No. But can I say that in isolation, a lot of these cases people are talking about. Nuno Lerero who basically ran MIT's plasma fusion lab and Carl Grilmer at Caltech, Neil McCaslin who ran this, you know, who's on the special access program oversight committee and ran the Air Force Research Laboratory at Wright Patterson and was cleared to more things than the president. In isolation, I can say that all of those cases are extremely significant. And then I would say that there's been a history of scientific suppression. So I don't know if this represents a statistical speed up. But do you think that any of those cases Talbot Targ? Do you think there was any sort of foul play Grinberg? I don't know. Yeah, maybe it's, I don't know, maybe it's maladaptive to think about those sorts of things. You got to kind of ignore it. Keep the blinders on. Have you ever had spooky things happen to you given that you're kind of swimming in this stuff? I mean, you must have to go into these things with a real pure heart because if you don't, I feel like if you go into these sorts of topics with any sort of malintent, you know, it can go sort of badly. I think you're right. And maybe I've just gotten lucky. I doubt it's luck. I think I've been protected from things. But I can give you one example that was a little scary, not much really. I think for the most part, whatever I've experienced has been positive. But there was an occasion after Owens had produced this amazing UFO sighting published on the front page of a local newspaper as he had predicted. I was on the phone with him again. And you may remember, he said he would produce three sightings and he was bragging about how good he was. And I said, well, you've only produced two so far. And he slammed the phone down. He got angry. And within minutes, I could feel this sensation in my throat. Like when you get a kind of scratchy feeling in your throat, and it's just enough to let you know you're about to get a real sore throat. And that's how it felt. Like I'm about to get really sick from this. And then 45 minutes later, he called me back. And he said, Jeffrey, I will never do that to you again. And it lifted. Oh, that's freaky. So he had the ability to just remote influence people on command. Unfortunately, there were lives lost there. And because he could be vindictive. Well, so you think he took people out? Well, there were people who, in his mind, double crossed him, had promised him certain things. And I didn't deliver on their promises. And he was not always a nice person. He tried, for example, to get owners of various major league athletic teams to give him money in order to protect the team. And if they backed out on their promise, at least in one of those cases, there was a suicide. Wow. And in other cases, there was an example where a sports writer, I think, of the Virginia pilot newspaper, invited Owens to attend a football game with him. I may have the newspaper incorrect, but because it was the Philadelphia Eagles, they were watching. So it's probably a different newspaper. And in the middle of the game, Owens said, I'm going to take out this player told the reporter, the reporter later wrote about it. And within moments that player who was sitting on the bench at the time, it was a fullback, got up and ran into the field unexpectedly and was kicked out of the game. No way. Yeah. So taken out in the sense that he was disqualified from the game because he broke the rules and just came off the bat and ran. It was a totally irrational act on his part. Whoa. But in other cases, you're saying, Ted Owens literally might have killed people. There were airplane crashes, there were there were a number of unpleasant incidents. You must be protected. You dealt with this guy for a decade plus. That's insane. I had the attitude. You see, I started out working in criminology. When I was a young man, I was a graduate student in criminology. I was doing field work at San Quentin Prison, doing group therapy with murderers and rapists. And I cultivated an attitude early in life to treat everybody with respect no matter what. Even a murderer, even a rapist. And I treated Owens that way too. So he had no reason to ever treat me badly. And I think that attitude has served me well in life. And I still believe it. You were almost primed to be able to be to deal with him. You were like the only one who could deal with him or something. Well, there were others. There were a few others. I remember back in 19, must have been 77, 78. I convened a meeting of scientists to because I really wanted, well, I was still a graduate student to launch a serious research program into this man. And they actually corralled JL and Heineck to show up. And his attitude was, I wouldn't go near Ted Owens with a 10-foot bowl. I'm with Heineck on that one. That's wild. That's wild that you were able to get that close over such a long period of time. And you know, you had a 45-second scratchy throughout that that's what that's all you got. That's fascinating because it's interesting also to hear the accounts of people at the Princeton Engineering and Anomalous Research Lab and SRI. We're at times it almost feels like people studying Parapsychology. For them, it's almost like a religious conversion experience. And their ability to affect the statistical distribution, you know, the z-score on the random event generator is very correlated with their kind of heart centeredness or like kind of internal alignment. So I think about that with respect to Ted Owens. And I'm like, this guy seems like this angry, vindictive, like sort of, you know, very limp. Bic guy, but then he has these like higher powers, and then I think about the people who go through this Parapsychological conversion process and they become these, you know, just like almost like modern saints or something And those two things feel very different. They are different and Puharic wrote about that in a book called Beyond telepathy and in which he developed a theory that For receptive forms of ESP, it's good to be relaxed, and as you say heart centered He would call it colonurgic in his book Meaning the acetylcholine hormones are active in the body, so you get relaxed Then he said however for psychokinesis for an active form of telepathy or pk is as we call it That requires an adrenergic state a lot of adrenaline you get aroused If you're sending a message for example a very common Experience reported in the 19th century was called the crisis apparition where somebody is in an accident or near death And other people have an apparition they appear and learn about it that way Well, the one person in the crisis is in an adrenergic state and the other person receiving the information would be in the colonurgic state. So somehow like this self-disillusion or heart-centeredness Makes you more receptive to messages, but to send the messages which it really seems like Teto and specialized in That requires maybe more aggression or anger or more adrenaline It would seem to be the case. I don't think it's a heart and fast rule But it seems that there's a tendency in those directions Tell me about Puharic because I find him to be such a fascinating figure You know, I have a friend named Greg Milazzi who just made right an amazing documentary on on him called the mind traveler I'm Andrea Puharic. I'm a physician by training Research scientists by choice and I've spent the last 25 years investigating people with unusual powers Puharic was this guy who he was earnestly kind of interested in consciousness. He was at Northwestern and He starts studying this stuff and he kind of gets folded in in a way that I don't think he was quite ever fully comfortable with throughout his life to kind of intelligent circles and CIA and And then he he has an aweson in New York You know, he has the space kids and he recruits all these people he brings in Yuri Geller from Israel and they're they're talking to this Council of nine extra terrestrial beings and there's this open question of is he taking the beings existence at face value? Is there like a galactic federation that he's receiving transmissions from so there's this like CIA scientists communicating systematically with aliens? Or is it this proto-parapsychological thing and he kind of knows that the whole time? Do you have a take on that and oh, I could talk for a long time please yeah, go for it Well, let me say at the outset mind traveler the documentary. I know it's been years in in the making 11 years I know Greg and I'm currently working with a fellow named Lance Mongea who work closely with Greg And Lance is currently working with me to build up a documentary on Ted Owens. Wow. So there's a connection there. That's exciting 168 different demonstrations. He performed over a period of 20 years roughly two-thirds of them worked out the way he said they would Bucharic when I first met him was about 1972 and Berkeley. I sponsored a conference in Zehler-Bach, Auditorium, 1,800 people showed up and Bucharic was one of the speakers and it was at that conference that he made the very first public announcement about his work with Erie Geller and Puharic has always been wonderful to me. He was an inspiration. I saw him as a role model and he encouraged me along the way. So I would add a gratitude to him. I think he was a fine researcher, a very brilliant man. I only learned later on about all of his associations with M. K. Altra, but he had already published some of his work with psychedelic mushrooms. Yeah, oh yeah, Sacred Mushroom. The Sacred Mushroom. So he was known for that and I knew him to be a magical person because I had heard before I even met Puharic people who read his book the Sacred Mushroom and within days of reading his book they find these mushrooms growing in their backyard. That's wild. Yeah. And I think he would attract all sorts of UFO flyovers at Austining and he had a machine that he would hook up these sort of space kids to as well. So it was this sort of similar to your sort of, you know, mediumship, you know, electronics. It was these electronics to speak with who he thought maybe was extraterrestrial intelligences. It was this council of nine, but they're also, I guess he brought up the nine Egyptian deities in this context. So I guess my central question on him is do you think he believed that he was in communication with extraterrestrials or do you think he kind of knew all along that you can't take any of this stuff at face value and it was just he was really looking into parapsychology. There's so many touch points. I know with Puharic and UFOs, but I think it's fair to say that he was a very sophisticated man and I'm sure he understood a that UFOs are real that they were involved for example in the regeller's history and development. Puharic himself witnessed UFOs in conjunction with the regeller as well as synchronicities. And you know, today we talk about the simulation hypothesis, which is a very sophisticated way of looking at it. And in Puharic's day, that hypothesis didn't exist as far as I know. But I think Puharic implicitly understood that reality is not what it seems to be and that there's a real connection between the ancient Egyptian deities and people who are channeling information as he was working with different channels, channelers. And UFO appearances, I think he understood it was all interconnected and that he himself was he believed himself to be in direct communication with these entities, whatever they were. He was so fascinating and he was I think just a focal point for so much good and then incidentally probably a lot of bad too, but not necessarily due to his own intention, but due to being sort of folded up into the wrong circles, which can often be the case, I think in these topics, you know, I think it attracts a lot of left hand path types who, you know, want to sort of instrumentally use this stuff for, you know, MK Ultra or, you know, their own power or, you know, instrumental technological use, or whatever. I think first and foremost, he was a scientist and he wanted to understand these things. And he had a broader vision than most anybody else in the scientific world at that time. You've spoken to so many interesting, fascinating people. I don't even know where to start, but Terence McKenna, you have an amazing interview with him online and it almost feels like when you ask him questions, he is like tethered to some metaphysical pool of otherworldly truth or something. He's so precise in his language and so semantically accurate, but then also extremely trippy. It's one possible view of the flying saucer is that it is a kind of projection from the consciousness of the planet, that it is Gaia, that it is in fact a kind of alchemical object haunting human historical time with a symbol of totality. He was wonderful and one of the most articulate people I'd ever met. Yeah, there's a great clip of him with John Mack and he's interviewing John Mack. And he's kind of goading John Mack and he's kind of being a little cheeky in his interview questions and he's kind of leading John Mack in a kind of interesting direction, which almost feels like his personality type, like he's this almost machine elf, but in the real world or something. And he's talking about to John Mack about like the Western materialist reductionist paradigm. And John Mack, you can tell he's getting kind of ideologically heated about how he wants that paradigm to go away. And it's going to get hit really hard by, you know. This the paradigm that's existed kind of in cultures across millennia, you know, very hard if you want to shatter the western mental structures the western mind so to speak which is not permeating the whole earth in its materialist dualistic philosophy, the way you do it is you take something that's supposed to be in the spirit world because even in the west we can make allowance for the spirit world and we can study it through mythology, through religion, through imagination, through poetry, but the one unforgivable sin to the western mind is when something that should be in the spirit world transgresses and shows up in the physical world. You've interviewed both of those guys. It almost felt like mechanically believed that mushrooms would sort of symbiotically, they represented these sort of forms of intelligence. And they would symbiotically attach themselves to humans and direct their thoughts and actions in, you know, interesting ways. Well, he had this theory that consciousness itself developed when our primate ancestors discovered these much roots, yeah, exactly, so he had some wonderful theories now I've done some an interview and I've gotten to know his brother Dennis and Dennis's attitude is a little different Dennis. Dennis would tell you that Terence is not the saintly person that is sometimes viewed as, you know, the psychedelic saint of some kind. He was certainly a pioneer and a forerunner, but the two of them got into a number of misadventures with psychedelics. And Dennis would say that, you know, a lot of Terence's ideas like his way of trying to connect the etching with a system of 64 different try grams of the each or hexagrams of the etching with the genetic code and so on was was just speculative and wrong. Yeah, fair enough. I mean, clearly his life was very sort of free associative or something. And, you know, I know they had multi week long mushroom trips in the Amazon where they would sort of download and channel things. The theories like the stoned ape theory are so fascinating. And, you know, I don't know how much corroboration there is for that, but it's an interesting question to why human brain size doubled from homo habilis to homo sapiens from two million years ago to, you know, three to four hundred thousand years ago. You know, if human hunter gathers are looking for scat and, you know, psilocybin Cubensis is growing on that, then maybe that maybe that be gets the sort of quicker epigenetic changes and neurogenesis that allows for that change to occur. Well, the other hypothesis would be that of Zechariah Sichen who suggests that the ancient gods, the Anunnaki performed genetic experiments on our primate ancestors. And that's how the modern homo sapiens developed. Yes, that's true. Yeah, there are a lot of interesting theories. And I think there's this latent sense, you know, Stephen J. Gold had this discussion of punctuated equilibrium. Is it evolutionary biologist? And there are holes in the evolutionary record in Carl Popper would often talk about materialist promissory notes where, you know, materialism was taking out debt and had all sorts of placeholders that they would smuggle in sort of fake answers for things. And I think the advent of culture and agriculture 10,000 years ago and this doubling of, you know, brain size are examples of that where you get these sort of spikes and activity where it's like you're just you're saying that we've been physiologically the same for the last at least 200,000 years as human homo sapiens and then in 5% of that time, 10,000 years ago, we get culture, agriculture, history, you know, complex structures that we're building. Specialization, urbanization, that seems a little weird. I think we have to take seriously the ancient astronaut hypothesis that this planet has been under observation, perhaps long before humans evolved on it and that there have been genetic experiments taking place by we don't know exactly who or what. But many of the myths of ancient gods seem to point in in that direction and if you look at the various claims about a hybrid program taking place right now, people's credible people in my mind, such as Whitley Strieber who talk about, you know, seem an extraction taking place during alien abductions it may be the case that those genetic experiments are ongoing. That would be wild and we were talking about Robert Bigelow, I find it fascinating that the UFO disclosure movement centers so much around Bigelow aerospace. It's all about this all sap program and Bigelow, which was you know they were going to receive this UFO from Lockheed Martin and he was clearly privy to all sorts of sensitive UFO stuff. You're studying these things at Skinwalker Ranch, but also elite scientists were doing right ups in the forms of these these sort of thirds on like exotic propulsion for him. So he was really the tip of the spear as far as people we know about with resources studying this stuff and then Bigelow will also in interviews say aliens are walking among us. Implying that maybe they're human hybrids or maybe they're men in black style aliens and sort of skin suits or something I don't know. But what what what do you make of that I don't think we can discount it I've heard numerous reports along those lines I don't have any hard evidence whatsoever but in the larger context of what I know and you know about what's been going on over the last let's say. 70 80 years it seems to be a reasonable hypothesis do you think Ted Owens was an alien. 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No purchase necessary to enter but every dollar you spend gets you more entries and when they ask you where you heard about them tell them we sent you it genuinely supports the show. No. Just to push back on that I don't know maybe it probably wasn't an alien but like if you have you know variance of humans and you have somebody like that with like macro PK skills. I would you know like if I were to like choose. The aliens it would be the people who like Matilda style could do like telekinesis and like some in hurricanes and that sort of thing like that would those would be maybe my first. Candidates well in goes one claim to have use remote viewing to travel to the moon where he believed there were aliens who forced him off. [BLANK_AUDIO] the moon, but his point was they have stronger psychic abilities than even a very talented human such as himself, and I think that's probably true. All the reports talk about really clear telepathic communication with these aliens, but it's not as if humans can't do these things. To go to Mars, telepathically, the first thing you'll encounter is a group of telepaths who are not exactly welcoming, and if they don't manage to show you out, then they add four more, so there's nine of them after which you get a headache and go to bed. Aliens would then be on the continuum of human evolution, and they would be more advanced than us, and epistemic frameworks coming from things like remote viewing would bump into aliens, just like Pat Price's remote viewing these alien bases across the earth, under skip out water, or with Ingoswan, where he's remote viewing an alien base on the moon. It's like you're bumping into their channel. Right. It's like you first, you're Marconi, you're the first person to develop a radio, and then you get kind of a weird signal, and you're like, where's the signal coming from, and that's like maybe what's going on with the remote viewers or something. I think there's a lot to that idea, and then one has to ask, if they've been monitoring us, some people would say we're like a garden or a farm for them, that they're watching. What is their ultimate intention? What is this leading to, and I recently interviewed people who claim to have direct information about that, and suggest that the intention is to build a civilization where humans and aliens will be living together on this planet. I've done a series of interviews with two individuals who exist in one body. They used the names Anika and Tristan, I've now completed 10 interviews with Anika and Tristan. What they do is beyond anything to my knowledge that is known of in the literature of multiple personalities or what's called the sociative identity disorder. So when one of you is in the body, where's the other one? They are in a meditative state. So sometimes they can be completely removed from the body, so Tristan just left the body completely. He just moved outside of it, and he reduced his presence in the body completely. Now it's just me, but then if I let go of the body, it's very jarring, too, because you're going from a state where you don't have access to the senses, and you're very much in this very strange state of consciousness, and then you're coming back into the physical world, so it's jarring for us. They're perfectly comfortable with each other. They can switch back and forth instantly. There are neuroscientists interested in studying them. I'm hoping to set up some serious laboratory work brain scans and the like neuroimaging while that happens, because they can sing duets together, and I've been interviewing them over a couple of years now. They claim, at this point, to have memories of having lived outside of the earth on other planets and other lifetimes, and that they're on a mission to help ease the way they would call it, would be unifying the timelines, but ease this transition that humanity is going through right now, of basically first contact with public contact with aliens, who've probably been here for a very long time. My understanding is that their life spans can be much longer than ours, for example. While we say human history goes back five, maybe 15,000 years, to go blacky-tepi, the life span of some aliens could be longer than that. But in any case, they claim that there is a plan, and there are some books from contactees that go into greater detail about that, which they endorse. Onika and Tristan, and these are two personalities in one body, and they can switch back and forth at ease. Yes. They're aware of each other while one of the personalities is sort of dominating the conversation or embodying the body. It's aware of the other personality, unlike traditional dissociative identity disorder. Exactly. Wow. And now eight interviews that have already been released on the new thinking allowed channel two more to go. I can't wait to watch these. That's fascinating. And so they also claim they sort of have knowledge of their past lives in which they were on other planets or something. Right. They were working on these same problems from the point of view of being an alien. What do they attribute that ability to integrate to? You know, like that seems really rare. The ability to switch back and forth like that and coexist in harmony. It's rare. We don't know of another case like it, and they would attribute it to being part of their mission. That it's their way of demonstrating that there's more to human consciousness than we suspect it. It would seem to suggest that, you know, the soul and the body are separate that they can each enter and leave the body at will. Well, you're a fan of William James, the, you know, father of modern psychology, but also a lot of people don't know. He was, you know, the president of the Society for Psychical Research as well, and he's really interested in parapsychology too, one of the early kind of proponents of it. And he had this transmission theory of consciousness, this filtering mechanism of consciousness that you eloquently write about and speak about. And so maybe, you know, if you were changing the channel on a TV or something, this sort of integrated double identity thing going on with Anika and Tristan might make a little more sense. And if we can begin to nail down what happens in the brain while that is going on, I think that'll be an advancement, whether you consider it two souls in one body as I do or an unusual case of dissociative identity disorder, it still says a lot about mind body interaction. Yeah. You mentioned bending timelines or integrating timelines in order to sort of ease a transition involving contact with non-human intelligence. I'm sure you've had this thought, but you are probably a large note in a big part of easing that transition. Well, I sometimes suspect there may be more going on than I'm even consciously aware of. I bet you that that's the case, because you also started the show, what was the inspiration to the show, because I think it has a very interesting origin story. Well, if we go back to when I was a graduate student in criminology, 1972, I would say that I was already very interested in the paranormal and in mysticism, but I never thought I'd have a career in that area. I was specializing in what you could call deviant psychology and crime and psychopathology. That's what I was looking at. I had at that time two dreams that changed my life completely. The first one was a dream where a great uncle of mine who hadn't seen in years, but it was like my favorite great uncle appeared in the dream. I'd call it a visitation, and I later learned it occurred at the moment of his death. When that happened, I decided that I needed to change my career focus and try to find a career that focused on positive forms of human deviance rather than negative. That was very hard to do, even though I was at school at the University of California, one of the largest and best in the world, there weren't opportunities very much to study the paranormal or mysticism. There were a few professors who were sympathetic and supportive, and I agonized, what am I going to do? Then, months later, after months of agony, really, I knew one day I was going to have a dream. I woke up and said, "Tonight, the dream is going to happen. No." I had a dream that night, in which I was visiting some friends of mine who lived across town and Berkeley in a married student housing apartment. I knocked on the door. I knew them very well. There was no answer. the dream. I found a key, let myself in, to their apartment. And in the middle of the living room floor, there was a magazine spread open. I picked it up, began paging through it. The name of the magazine and my dream was I-E-Y-E. And then I woke up with this feeling of exhilaration, like, wow, I've got the answer, but I didn't know what it meant. And so, instinctively, I acted out the dream. I put on my tennis shoes, ran across town, got to the apartment, knocked on their door, and there was no answer as I had dreamt. And in fact, I knew where they hid a key. And so I let myself in. And there in the middle of the living room floor, just as I had dreamt, was a magazine. I picked it up, it was called Focus. And it gave me focus for really the first time in my life. It was a magazine of listener-sponsored radio and television, KQED, in the San Francisco Bay Area. As I was paging through it, it dawned on me for the very first time in my life, that I could pursue my interests by getting involved in the non-profit segment of the media. So, wow, that's amazing. So I went to KPFA, Radio Pacifica Radio and Berkeley, which was also a non-profit, and said, I had my master's degree at the time. I said, "Can I volunteer?" And they said, "Sure, sit at this desk, and when you hear the doorbell ring, push this button and let people in the front door, which I gladly did." And within three weeks, I had learned how to produce a radio program. I did my first program on, you don't have to be from out of town to be psychic. - Wow, and the program director liked it so much. He said, "We have a slot for you every Tuesday and Thursday at noon. We'd like you to host this interview show called The Minds Year." And all of a sudden, I found myself sitting, just like this, and of course it was a table in those days, with leading experts, authors of books, people like Robert Monroe, coming through the Bay Area on their book tour. And that gave me the confidence to then go back to the university and take advantage of a very obscure rule they had that if you're a graduate student in good standing and you want to do a dissertation on a topic that no department would be willing to sponsor, and you can find three faculty members of from different departments who will agree to sponsor you. You can create your own individual interdisciplinary doctoral program, and so that's how I ended up seven years later earning a doctoral degree in Paris Psychology. - That's amazing. It's almost like a little divine intervention. You had a pre-cognitive dream that also, I know another former interviewee of yours, Eric Wargo, would describe as a time loop. Because had you not had the dream, you wouldn't have been motivated to find the magazine that said focus, and then you wouldn't have gotten the focus in order to join the radio station and then get the Paris Psychology degree. And so if you hadn't been paying attention to the dream, you wouldn't have taken action. It's so fascinating. - Yeah, I'm still fascinated by it. It seems to me that little event in my life says a great deal. And normally what I tell people about it, people ask, is it seems to me that the universe is a whole wants each of us to become the best version of ourselves, which is gonna be different for everybody, and that if you set out to do that, to get in touch with your own deep inner purpose, the universe is gonna help you in one way or another. - Yeah, I think that's right. I think when you find the thing that you're supposed to be doing, it feels like almost paranoally. Things start to happen. It's almost like the opposite of entropy. I know people use words like centripy or whatever, but it's like a reduction in the randomness and an increase in these synchronicities, where you're being shown that you're on the right path, and the path is sort of being cleared for you. - I bet that's happened to you too. - Oh yeah, it has. Well, meeting you originally, and being such a fan of your stuff, and yeah, it has, every step of the way. In fact, there are times I've tried to quit, and early on, especially, I'll give you an example, I didn't put out a show for nine months between Graham Hancock and David Grush, and I was really contemplating, I didn't have social media before starting the show. I don't particularly love the discourse on Twitter and other platforms like that, and I just like to read and meet people, and I'm sort of ultimately actually kind of an introvert, and I don't know, I get also with these sorts of topics, they're fascinating to me, and I feel like I need to get deeper on them. I'm sure you have the same sort of impulse, and then I also simultaneously am sort of afraid of them, and I'm afraid of getting deeper, and I realize that there are a lot of people who get too deep or they have sort of the wrong impure motivation, so I'm always trying to audit my motivations. So anyways, all of this is going through my head, and I've basically all but quit. I haven't done a show in a long time, at nine months, and then I'm in Europe, and I'm with my friend Amar, who runs this amazing channel called Yes Theory, this really big YouTube channel. David Grush had already come out through news nation, and I had known him for probably a year and a half, or two years at that point, and I was with my friend Amar, and he's like, you know this guy, and everybody in the world is hanging on his every word. They want to know what he's going to say next, 'cause this guy who's very above board, he's handled the presidential David brief, colleagues have come out in support of his, and he seems totally lucid, and he's saying that he has like hundreds of pages of documentation of this legacy UFO crash retrieval program going on sub-Rosa. He's like, you need to interview this guy, and I was like, ah man, I've, fuck YouTube, I'm done with all this stuff, and eventually he kind of convinces me, and I call Dave with my friend Amar, and he's like, oh, I'm a huge Yes Theory fan. Like, you know, I love what they do, and yeah, like why don't we do a thing where it's like you can do something with Yes Theory, and we do something on the hill for when I testify, and then you can follow me back to Colorado, we'll go ATV-ing together, we'll have a great time, and I'm just like, I can't say no to that, sounds amazing. So I do that, we have the best time ever, we create this little mini-dock, and then from then on, I'm like, ah, I guess I'm back in it, and I've had a little instances like that, where if I get demoralized, I get redirected back. It's very fascinating, you can't, you know, it's a more faulty, you gotta love your fate. - Good point. - Have you had instances like that, where you feel like, you almost have to like test, whether something is right for you, where you peel back on it, and then you get sort of forced back into it, because clearly you're supposed to be doing that. - There have been times, as I mentioned earlier, I had to fight a libel suit. I have had to deal with skeptics who, viciously attacked me for different reasons. There have been times when, in order to support myself, I got involved in other professions, which is good. I learned things like, as you learned along the way about business, about computer programming, and a lot of practical skills that if I had only done, paranormal research, I might not have learned. - Yeah, well clearly, you know, it's like the Steve Jobs speech, you can connect the dots going backwards, but not forwards, and maybe this is an argument for retro causality or something, but the fact that you studied criminology and sociopathy, and then you were like uniquely fitted to dealing with Ted Owens for as long as you did, that just doesn't feel coincidental to me. - With Ted Owens himself had a similar career. He had, he was a high-speed typist in a law office. He was at one time a jazz musician, played the drums. He was a bullwhip artist in a side show, and he had a knife-throwing act with his wife. - Unbelievable. Something that's coming to mind for me is I had a flashback. If I learned this from you, you said this on new thinking aloud that weird, the root of it is Celtic, W-Y-R-D, and that actually means fate. And so I find it very interesting that your fate is studying the weird, but in the modern connotation of weird, and that would say the same for me in some ways. - Some people think that weird is a word of disparagement, which is how it's used these days, but I think of it as being a positive, magical thing. - Oh yeah. Well, like, if you're part of the consensus, what are you adding? If you're weird, you know, you're at least adding, and you know, you could also be subtracting. It's one or the other. I always challenge people. I've just debated Michael Schirmer on the show. Is there one non-consensus thinker now that you would get behind? - I don't know, because if I knew, I would get behind him. - But it's important to do that work, right? To take baths off, okay, absolutely. - You know, if history is moved forward by non-consensus thinkers, you know, of course he claps back at me and he goes, well, you're picking the winners. You know, there are more bad non-consensus thinkers than good non-consensus thinkers. But I sort of maintain my point. If history is moved forward fundamentally by non-consensus thinkers, if you can't pick one non-consensus thinker now that you agree with, then you're probably on the wrong side of history. And so you're systematically compiling these non-consensus thinkers. - Well, there's also been some recent studies. In fact, just published, I think a week ago, surveying physicists, because there is this idea that oh, physicists have consensus. They all agree on the standard model of cosmology and physics. And the survey recently showed that adherence to the standard model is only about 30% of physicists. So the idea that there is a consensus is probably a myth. - Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, it's funny again, going back to the Shermer discussion, we were talking about dark matter, which is when you think of dark matter, you think of it as this canonical staple in physics and modern day physics is part of the bedrock, right? And I'm getting into it with him and I'm like, wait, so lighten, doesn't interact with this thing and it kind of justifies gravity's weakness on a cosmological scale. But we have no idea what it is. We just call it dark matter. And then I'm going through all the UFO evidence, all this stuff around nuclear sites across the country. And I'm like, we directly measure these things on radar. We have optical, we have photos in the case of McMinville and like, coat, we have video, we have, you know, experiences, we have all these things. And I was like, do you believe in UFOs as much as you believe in dark matter? And I eventually got them to sort of concede. But it's really, certain things are sacred cows and you're not supposed to kind of question them, but you're right. If you have, you know, a few drinks with a physicist, they'll often say, oh yeah, there are all these problems with the standard model. You know, and I think at people's core, everybody's more idiosyncratic unless heard like than it seems. Dark matter and dark energy are just words. They're placeholders for something's going on and we don't know what. That's exactly right. With dark energy, you can literally put that through your favorite AI, Gemini, Chachy, PT, whatever. And you say, you know, what is this? It's like, oh, it's cosmic inflation. What's the cosmic inflation being caused by? Oh, well, it's a repulsive, almost form of gravity, but it's not gravity. It's not one of the four fundamental forces. Like, what are you talking about at that point? And then you just throw it in the model. And you go, oh, okay, oh, it's dark energy. Okay, cool. Okay, okay, well, let's slam the door shut on that. And it's the same thing with quantum physics, as you know, very well with, you know, parapsychology. There are all these people who are like, you can't affect random quantum processes with your mind. And then you say, okay, well, what are you basing your dogmatic opposition to that on? And they say something like, oh, the Copenhagen interpretation. And then you say, okay, what's the Copenhagen interpretation? Well, the father of quantum mechanics, Niels Bohr, said that, you know, you got to kind of, you know, it's a mathematical formalism. It's not a descriptor of reality. And, you know, holds no weight as far as ontological truth. If you think you understand it, you don't understand it. And then you said, and then I'm like, okay, so you don't understand it. And then you had all these people at the time, quantum mechanics sort of flirting with the idea that maybe the mind is involved in wave function collapse, whether it was von Neumann or Vignor or later David Bohm, who was seen as smarter than Einstein in many respects and was his student. And then it's like, well, this is totally un-falsifiable in both directions. Both sides have sort of dogma. And then you have evidence on the side of the parapsychology people where you have all these random event generator experiments. It reminds me of a book by my old friend, Robert Anton Wilson, who wrote, "Reality is whatever you can get away with." That's amazing. That's wild, you were friends with it. What was he like? He was a lovely person. And he had a tragic life. He had polio as a child. And then his daughter, his beautiful 15-year-old daughter was tragically murdered in Berkeley. But he was brilliant, absolutely brilliant. And I have to say, I've now done a series of interviews with a fellow named Gabriel Kennedy who has written a biography of him. And I don't think when I knew him, I thought of him as a brilliant novelist and a fun guy to be around and witty and a friend of Timothy Leary and so on. I didn't appreciate the depth of his thinking when I knew him then. And I'm trying to make up for that by doing more interviews about him now, because I think he was an important thinker. Oh, yeah, definitely an important thinker, an iconic last as well. Getting back to this idea that the soul survives the body and has transcends the body, you have mystery rituals and all of these disparate cultures that sort of simulate death before death, you know, on this cathedral in Greece around the Ellucinian mystery rituals, you had, you know, if you die before you die, you won't die when you die. And I'm probably botching that slightly. But that idea is prevalent across disparate cultures. And it's almost like the body is a collapsing function on a default state of greater omniscience. If you go back to Plato, the bodily senses are misleading. And there's some fundamental prior truth involved in the soul. And when you temporarily kill the body, you somehow experience that soul state, right? Is that something that has been ritualized across cultures and does that exist at all today? I mean, a modern example of it would be the psychomantium developed by Raymond Moody that was based on the discovery in ancient Greece of underground temples, where priests lived underground. And people who wanted to communicate with the dead would go visit them. And I think they've been uncovered archeologically now. They would have a big bowl filled with water which served as a device for scrying the way a crystal ball or a mirror, so it would work. And Raymond Moody said, all you really need to do is go into a dark room with a mirror. And it's useful to have some preparation in advance and sit in the dark room with the mirror for a while and you'll see that you'll have a communication or communion or an apparition will appear. And people have now been researching that. It's an age-old practice Peter Kingsley writes about pre-secratic rituals, even before the allucinian mystery rituals, as does Heidegger actually, where if you cut off all of the senses, it's not like you get silence. You get all sorts of weird apparitions. And then John Lilly, another CIA scientist, develops the sensory deprivation isolation tank. He claims to communicate with an alien intelligence, he calls SSI. And that also seems to be like this thing that allows you to remote view and allows you to port your consciousness into all these disparate locations and sense things that are beyond the five senses. - There have been many experiments like the psychomantium and work with the sensory isolation tanks and the Gauntzfeld experiments. But really, I would say a deeper cultivation of these skills would be found in, say, Tibetan Buddhism, where some practitioners will go into isolation for a year or more at a time, living just in a dark cell and staying awake while they enter into the dream state. And so on, there's such a vast difference between what modern scientists are able to do today and what an ancient tradition like Tibetan Buddhism has been able to accomplish over centuries. - It seems like a lot of religions, at least at their sort of more esoteric core, were centered around the liberation of the soul from the body. Even the temporary liberation. And then you sort of come back and you have a higher purpose, you've experienced that more kind of primordial soul self. And you understand your mission in life a little bit better. - Have you read Emburto Echo by any chance? - I have, he has this great book called Foucault's Pendulum. And it's sort of, I don't know, in some ways it's an interesting polemic on the whole research of UFOs or something. and he talks about these sort of ecstatic states that you read. reach in sort of a gnaustic sense and then through that you can also, you know, experience like a higher gnosis or something. And I think, I think it's, yeah, it's either deep embodiment or deprivation or something. You have the eschatic protocols of St. Ignatius of Loyola and then you have this other sort of more, you know, kind of like hedonistic, like full sensory thing. And maybe in both cases, you sort of, you know, transcend. I don't know. But I think the problem is human language actually. We have these categories. We're always trying to make something fit into a linguistic model and we're dealing with a reality that transcends language. Yeah. I think that's right. Yeah. It's like the sending and receiving, you know, receiving, you have to be selfless and sending you, you have to be a little more aggressive or something. That's obviously an oversimplification, you know, like, yeah, we're just, we're just so, in the snow and age on this stuff. And I just hope, you know, it's like, what have we spent collectively on parapsychology in the open source world in the last 100 years, probably 30 to 50 million bucks or something if that. Yeah. And what do we spend on one large Hadron collider, $15 billion. And so that's the other retort to people who are like, well, why have you not made any progress? Well, it's, there are no resources. And academia is kind of largely shut it down despite the actual academics who are involved with this stuff saying that there's something there. I just help to create a doctoral and a master's degree program that includes a specialization in parapsychology at the California Institute for Human Science. And it's the first program of its kind since I used to teach it, John F. Kennedy University back in around 1980, when they had a master's degree in parapsychology and that program shut down, I think, after a year or two. It's heartening to see that there's a sort of resurgence. If you take a basket, you know, psychedelics, UFOs, parapsychology, all of those things were like very invoked in the 50s and 60s. And then something happened in the late 60s, early 70s, where a lot of these things just started to get marginalized. And you can say that you could be conspiratorial, say that that was kind of a systematic, you know, marginalization, things like, you know, Timothy Leary was this intelligence construct and he intentionally went overboard with these things. You know, I'm sure part of that is true, but it seems to be like a lot of these things are sort of coming back. Well, the work that you and I are each doing, just having a conversation like this that goes out over the internet is a way of expanding things slowly, but it seems as if the human population can only take so much of the time. Yeah. Well, that's interesting. When you study the random event generators, there's almost like a rebound effect. So you're in like a flow state, you're getting, so okay, so a one or a zero shows up on a graphical interface and that's tied to the random kind of quantum mechanical thing. And so the observer shows up, they say I want more ones and all of a sudden they're getting more ones. They see a lot of ones. There's a great book written about this by a guy named Herb Mertz, who was at the, you know, Princeton Engineering and Anomalous Research Center and he describes this. So you're in this flow state and it's just like you're shooting threes in basketball and you're making every shot, you're like, how is this possible or you're playing poker and you're just winning everything over and over again. And then you become self-conscious and you're like, I'm pretty good at this, aren't I? Wow, I'm doing this and you start to over identify with your success. And then there's this sort of rebound effect and it feels like when covering these sort of frontier consciousness things, I noticed that when I try to like speed run it and go too fast, there's this bizarre rebound effect. And it's like, well, not so fast. And it's almost like you see a little mud gets slung at the thing that you were so high conviction in and it's like adaptively stigmatized in certain cases like it's like, you know, both of us have these independent media, you know, it's like it's on YouTube and stuff. And I think 90% plus of what you cover is really credible and I'd say the same of myself, but it somehow has to move through or permeate, you know, society in like this way that it like, it like can't be too fast or something. That's what I find. There's some higher intelligence holding it back. Well, I think it goes back to Freud actually who pointed out that the whole idea of Freudian defense mechanisms is that we, as speaking of the human population, we don't really want to know what's in our own mind. Let alone have other people be able to know what's in our own mind. So there's a motivation to suppress these things at a very instinctual level and only slowly I think our people can now, for example, talk about topics that were forbidden in the 1950s. Yeah. And what I also find and I'm sure you would resonate with this is that the people who are deeply involved in UFO research and parapsychology research, it's often some autobiographical quest and they have synchronicities that got them into the field. And you know, you read Ralph Blumenfalls, amazing, you know, the believer about John Mack. And it's like, you think of John Mack as this, like, you point to him as this credentialed expert and you say, oh, he's looking into abductions. So take abduction seriously because he's a Harvard psychiatry guy. But then you read this book and you're like, oh, well, he was meeting with Stan Stov-Groff and he was, you know, he was really, he had issues with his mother early on in life. And like, you know, he was sort of reconnecting with himself through holotropic breathwork and through these techniques that he was evangelizing with, you know, these experiences. And of course, you have to present things in ways that, you know, make nice with the kind of epistemological paradigm of the present day. But I think if everybody were to go full open kimono about their lives and why they believe what they believe it would always be like super pre-leveraged by some autobiographical quest and need for personal meaning. We talked about the word weird earlier and it's my understanding that most people probably well over 70% of the population have something weird going on. That's right. No, I think they do. And I think this idea that you can't own that sucks and is stupid. I think we should just, like, you know, I interviewed Graham Hancock and his first piece that he ever did was, it was like for a, I think a magazine or something and he was writing an article on the Ark of the Covenant. And it was sort of this beautiful quest of like the search for all knowledge. And then, you know, through that he, you know, then figured out that civilization is probably much older than we think it is. You have Gebekli Teppi and other discoveries and he sort of really helps rewrite history. But it was through this search for the Ark of the Covenant, which to me is like so significant, you know, and I think you have all these examples like that when you speak to a lot of these people off camera. And then on camera, you know, it's like you have to separate the observer and the observed, which can never really be done, you know. We're all following, we're all chasing our own mythologies. Everybody is. The skeptic is too. And people are afraid that if they talk about it openly, other people will think they're crazy. Yes. Well, that's the other thing about, you know, I love this Terence Mechanic quote where he says, "A secret is not something that isn't told, it's something that cannot be told." Still a secret, it's still a secret, it's the secret that can't be told. And so I think some of these synchronicities, if you go open Camono with them, you really tell them to the world, they would land so flat and people would not take them seriously at all. They stigmatize themselves. And so I think they're extremely significant to the person and maybe to people with sort of ears to hear. But otherwise, I think they, you know, they wouldn't resonate at all. And so this ability to even resonate with these topics is also kind of a gating factor for shows like ours to take hold in society too. That's one of the reasons I think that poetry is so important, that there's a way of expressing these truths that is non-threatening through language that is poetical rather than logical. I would agree. You know, I think there's sort of a semantic truth and then there's truth that hits you on sort of a gnostic, deeper level. And yeah, poetry gets at that, art gets at that. Shope an hour famously said, I think music is the closest thing to the divine. And so, you know, yeah, we can, we can try to parse it all of these things semantically. But we're just, we're going to hopelessly triangulate a thing that is, it's just, there's no way to really talk about it without experiencing it. That's true. And it seems as if having the firsthand experience makes, makes the difference. Most of the scientists who are really serious about this field have had the experience. And scientists who haven't had the experience tend to be skeptical even when they look at the data. Yeah. When Carl Jung was asked, you know, do you believe in God? [BLANK_AUDIO] believe I know. And yeah, I think there's a big difference between you know, being able to sort of intellectually create a firmament behind, you know, saying something's real and then just knowing it in your core. Did you ever interact with a woman named Valerie Ranson? I'm at North Illinois University, 1971, October, it's around 11 a.m. and I noticed a strange object above the student union building. It was like an aircraft without a few slush and it was just suspended above the building and that was my first experience. She was like trying to communicate with aliens through Zeno linguistics through, there was this group called the ether ship, this guy Willard DeBogart and she was in the White House actually. I did. He did. My goodness, yes, I was invited. Back, it was just around the time I got married in 1978, 1979. She convened a meeting in, down in the desert near Joshua Tree, I think 29 palms in that area and there was a group of about a dozen of us who showed up and and she she was a channeler and she said she's in touch with what she called the boys upstairs and she said the boys upstairs are going to meet us. And it's three in the morning and we got into a group of, of Jeeps and drove out into the middle of the desert. She said four UFOs are going to come and land and we're going to meet with them and we're out in the desert late at night and we see my mouth dropped open, four lights slowly descending. No way. Yes, in front of us. Really? Yes. Do you know her whole history? Because she is fascinating. She was a former model who was tied in with Puharic but was also at the Nixon White House and had a lot of high access and was involved in a lot of deep scientific research and and there's like even I think a general who said that she you know was routinely at the Nixon White House. Well, when I knew her, she was working in the Gerald Ford White House. Well, there you go. And as she was, I think she had a program about inflation, wind, whip inflation now and she was running that little program out of the White House and wait, so she was involved with inflation stuff? Yeah. She was like, wait, this is crazy. If it's the same person, I'm pretty sure her name was Valerie, but this is so long ago, my memory could be fuzzy. I'm going to show you a picture of the video, but yeah, go for it. The end of the story is that it turned out the four lights were in that area, there was a marine base and they were out on maneuvers and we were witnessing where flares. So do you think she was a kind of a con artist? No, okay. No, I think it was synchronicity. It was a synchronicity. Yeah. So she could sort of engineer the synchronicity or something. Well, or she got engineered by it. Or she got engineered by it. And then she went on to work with the federal reserve in like central banking. I never stayed in touch with her. Okay, but you were saying she was working on inflation and the in the Gerald Ford White House. That's my recollection. Yes. Well, yeah, she's fascinating. I really want to interview her. I wonder if I just haven't had any contact with her since 1979 or so. Who of the people who you've interviewed? Because sometimes you meet these shadowy figures and you think that they know so much. And then you speak to them and you're like, you're just a person. You don't know. You know, you're kind of groping in the dark like, I am, you know, and then sometimes you meet certain people and you have this kind of inkling of like, you're holding back. You know, a lot more than you let on. Who of the people who you've interviewed fall into that second category? Well, I suppose. As you know, a lot of the guests I sit down with, whether they're physicists, intelligence officers, people who've worked inside black programs are operating at a really impressive level mentally. Sometimes I feel like I'm a chimp talking to human beings. Often their work takes a toll and a lot of them track their health obsessively. Regular lab work obscure biomarkers often things that most people never look at. Meanwhile, last time I went to a primary care doctor, they ran maybe like eight biomarkers and they told me I was fine and sent me home. This massive difference between the ordinary broken and limited health care system and what elite people are doing to track their health got me interested in super power. The beautiful thing is they make elite level health care accessible. They'll literally send a licensed professional to your home or you visit a nearby lab. One simple lab test and you get over 100 biomarkers. Heart, liver, thyroid, hormones, metabolism, vitamin levels, even environmental toxins. After that, their app builds you a full action plan. Supplement suggestions you can buy directly through them, nutritional guidance, lifestyle adjustments. They even give you your true biological age and you can track that over time. And it's not just a one time snapshot. Each test builds on the last. So you're actually seeing progress instead of starting from zero every year. Make this the year you stop guessing about your health and you start getting serious with super power. Not only did super power reduce their price to just $199. But for a limited time, our listeners get an additional $20 off with code Alchemy. Head to superpower.com and use code Alchemy at checkout for $20 off your membership. After you sign up, they'll ask you how you heard about them. So please make sure to mention American Alchemy to support the show. Well, I suppose the most brilliant person who seemed to be in touch with at a heart level with the deepest reality that I ever met was probably Jean Houston who died just about two months ago. Tell me about Jean Houston. She and her husband Robert Masters co-authored a book called Varieties of Psychedelic Experience in about 1968. So she was regarded as one of the founders of psychedelic research, one of the founders of the human potential movement. And she created what she called a mystery school, which I attended for some years. And she had the ability a very rare gift to induce mystical experiences. She could induce mystical experiences. What do you mean by that? Well, for example, on one occasion I was in her mystery school program and she gave a lecture on Carlos Suarez book. He's a cobalist. He wrote a book called The Cypher of Genesis. And she went through the very first sentence of the book of Genesis in the beginning, God created the heavens in the earth. And she went through it in Hebrew, letter by letter, beret sheet, borrard, o'noi, lo, we, he, et cetera, in Hebrew. In the beginning, God created the heavens in the earth. And somehow, as I'm listening to this lecture, I got it. And I had the experience of how it happened, how God created this universe. And I was rolling on the floor. And I was laughing hysterically. That was the funniest thing in the world that God created all of this. In the next minute, I'd be in tears. Tears of joy, really. And she saw me like that, rolling on the floor, having this experience. And she looked at me and she winked. Wow. Wow. And she said to me, oh, so you're having an epiphany. Yeah, but almost like in this cheeky way, like she knew exactly what she had induced. Yeah. That's wild. Yeah. Sounds like an ascended master. And she was known for that. I'm certainly not the only person, people who knew her well had these kinds of experiences in her presence. It's interesting how it's often the people that aren't super self-promotional. And like, I don't know what your experience of her was, but I imagine she wasn't very egotistical or showy about her abilities. Well, she had a lot of theatrical talent. I can say that. Okay. Fair enough. Very talented. She could have been an actress. And she did voices. And she was within the human potential community very well known. Okay. Okay. Well, maybe she was self-promotional. I don't know. Well, you know, she supported herself. throughout her life by doing these workshops and traveling around the world, and she worked with many, many different cultures. I would say she knew how to live a very full life. Did you ever get deeper with her on her understanding of the nature of reality, and did she ever say anything that was pretty wild about that? Well, I think that time she winked at me was about as close as I got. Sure. But she's written many books, maybe about 20 books. She had a big following. Let me put it that way. You mentioned meeting Robert Monroe. That's pretty fascinating. He is another guy who studied consciousness. A lot of people now cite this hemisync paper from the mid-1980s that involve synchronization of both hemispheres, and you have the Monroe Institute, of course, in Virginia. What was he like? Well, he seemed like a very self-effacing person. He was quiet. He invited me to kind of join his program, but I was already in school at Berkeley, so it wouldn't have been feasible or realistic for me at the time. I kind of imagine what would life have been like if I had. I've done a whole series of interviews with Tom Campbell, who worked with him closely, and Tom has wonderful stories about how the Monroe Institute got built up. And as a result of his experiences, he's developed, I would say, a very credible theory of how these things work. Tom believes that he has the theory, the answer. Yes. I don't know if I'd go quite that far, but I think he's very close. You got to tap into the right data stream. He's fascinating. I think he also was at NASA, right? Tom Campbell? Possibly. I'm not sure about that. You just intersected with all these amazing people. I feel like I'm missing somebody and I'm going to kick myself after this interview if I miss anyone. Are there any other kind of new thinking allowed guests that stick out for you that sort of shocked you or helped you develop your own world view? Well, I would be remiss if I didn't mention Arthur Young. Oh, yeah. He was a mentor to me, and he was the inventor of the Bell helicopter, the first commercially licensed helicopter. He was an amazing human being. I would put him right up there with Gene Euston in terms of the people who have influenced me the most, intellectually and at a heart level. When I was just beginning my graduate program in neuropsychology he showed up in my life and invited me to live with him to move into the institute for the study of consciousness he had set up in Berkeley. So I had that experience and he was a theorist. He had a theory of everything, which I also regard as being very credible. What was his theory? Well, it's complex. It's enunciated in his book The Reflexive Universe and I would say it's consistent with the idea that the process, the whole universal process is one of spirit descending into matter and then matter ascending back into the realm of spirit. And so there's like a V shape and it starts out pure spirit. He would equate with light. And we talked earlier about how if you're a photon time and space don't even exist. But then you go from light to particles and the idea of attraction and repulsion and then to atoms where you get forms, something really solid and stable and molecules and then you get complex molecular chains like DNA and RNA and that's the beginning of where matter is moving back to the realm of spirit. And then you get life forms, single cell creatures and plants and animals and ultimately humans. What he did is he created what he called the grid and he took in effect the periodic table of the elements and he expanded it to be a periodic table of everything. So within the human kingdom based on this model, he placed modern humans, such as you and I, right about in the middle, in the same place in the animal kingdom, we would be equivalent to clams in terms of the potential of what an animal could be. So he would say the potential for, you know, to be fully capable of what a conscious, sentient being like a human could be with a long way to go. I think about that sometimes like when we talk about non-human intelligence as we talk about them as others, we don't talk about them as a continuum from us. And we were just talking about how latent and every human are these side powers, abilities to sort of remote view, be intuitive, you know, be clairvoyant in certain cases. And that seems to be fully developed in the case of these kind of non-human entities. And so why would you think of those entities as wholly distinct from you rather than kind of the next step on a chain of evolution? And their theorists, you know, pre-Darwin that used to think of the body or the vessel or the structure as following what could kind of hold the spirit. And when the spirit sort of like graduated that specific kind of training ground, then it would ascend and do like another form. And so, and then you have, I don't know, great researchers like Don Hoffman, who's at, you know, UC San Diego. And he describes embodiment as actually maladaptive for consciousness. And so we're likely just teaming with, you know, disembodied consciousness where it's, there's less latency and there's more, you know, just ability to sort of instantly react and like know everything very quickly. And, and so it's just so interesting. It would Arthur Young sort of agree with that graded ascent of man. I, I imagine he would, but I think he also felt that figures like Jesus or Buddha represented the future for humanity. Yeah. Well, that's a great future. So cool too that he started again. Another guy, nuts and bolts, inventor of the bell helicopter. Nobody can take that from him. And then he gets really, I mean, I know he was close with you and Puharic as well. And he was involved in some of those sails from with the nine and stuff. That's all true. So that's just such a, such a fascinating, clearly a polymath. Well, here's the fascinating thing about him to me. He was born as I recall in 1905. He went to school at Princeton, graduated in 1926, studied Einstein's theory of relativity back then when it was really new. And, and Alfred North Whitehead's process philosophy. And he wanted to do process philosophy himself, which is really what his theory is. It's about universal process. But he also felt that philosophy as a field had failed because it didn't anticipate all of the progress that humanity was making through technology. And he said to himself as a young man, 21 years old, in order to be worthy of doing philosophy, he had to show that he could master something in the physical world. Wow. So he went to the patent office in Washington and looked for unsolved problems. They discovered that there had been at that point in 1926, maybe 200 different efforts to build what we now call a helicopter, a machine that could hover in mid-air. And they at all failed. So he set out with no particular background in engineering to solve that problem. And he worked on it from 1926 up until the first commercial helicopters came off the assembly line at Bell helicopters 1947. That is remarkable. And to talk about precociousness on the part of somebody so young, I mean, most people you hear about these stories like, you know, Edison or Tesla or something, it was like in their DNA from a, you know, young age and they were sort of playing with this stuff really early on. In his case, it's like to come to that intellectual conclusion and then to just go full force into, you know, and then and then to actually invent the helicopter, the Bell helicopter, that's amazing. He spent the first 12 years as I recall working on a design that at the end of the day failed completely like many rotors at the ends of the big rotors. But he kept at it. He maintained his focus. And after the helicopter, had been released and he was at that point a very famous and wealthy person, then he decided he had earned the right to do philosophy. And I think you're well all these machineries and things that teach us law is how to make things. That's why I wanted to make the helicopters where you learn how to make things. It helps in how to put a philosophy together. You picked a great mentor. He picked me. Well, as it's often the case, it's sort of bidirectional or meant to be, but that is so cool that what an amazing and complete life, you know, I always find it interesting when somebody's kind of an industrialist and they interact with the physical world because philosophy can at times be divorced from it. You don't get the feedback from the kind of cold hard free market or cold hard mechanics of technology. But then on the other side, you can end up in this sort of Philistine, you know, I just need to make more money and you're sort of, you know, have a lifeless attitude towards your consumers if you don't have the philosophical angle. Right. And so I think having both is very cool. Yes, it can be a trap to be very wealthy. Most of the wealthy people I've ever known have been miserable, but not all of them. The other major supporter of my work was a fellow named Buck Charlson who invented power steering. Wow. And the hydraulic motor and he was a person without much formal education and the ideas which just pop into his mind like with Tesla fully formed and then he was working with farmers in Minnesota and he would ask them, well, what do you need? And as a result of that, he would build inventions to satisfy the needs of the local farmers and that led to a hydraulic motor. He built, I think, the first one maybe came out in about 1964, so he was called the Gerruder. And as far as I know, there's still manufacturing them using the same design. Amazing. So he felt that his fortune and his fame came to him from an intuitive source and therefore he wanted to give back to the source. Oh, that's beautiful. I love that. You know, it's also just so interesting that when you audit the scientific process, it looks a lot more like revelation than it does like some final inductive logic step where you just finish the equation. Often it's like, you know, you're in Einstein's case, a patent clerk and you're sort of dozing off. You know, or you get, you get some sort of, I'm a big fan of this mid-century inventor named Thomas Townsend Brown. I don't know if you're familiar with him. I believe I've heard of him. He worked in the world of gravity manipulation and I think made more inroads than meets the eye. I think his work was sort of suppressed, but he attributes a lot of his life's work to a UFO experience he had. I think at the age of 17 on Catalina Island, it was like this Hierophony. Yeah. I'm sure there are many more cases like that we don't know about. Yeah. Well, I think if scientists were to scientifically study the phenomena of science, they would find it to look a lot more like, you know, religious experience than they would what they, what it's conceived of in the modern day. Similar to your sort of, you know, lack of consensus around the standard model, polemic. There was a philosopher of science who took that attitude. I got to meet Paul Fireabend. Oh, I love him against method. Yeah. Tell us about him. Well, he, when he published his book, you may know that there was an astrology chart he put on the bad page. He took real issue with the scientists about a hundred of them from the Psycop, primarily motivated to publish an article, a what would you call it, a white paper or something criticizing astrology, scientists who knew nothing about astrology and he said that this was a total abuse of the scientific method to claim that they had an authority to say that astrology was nonsense. So he published his own chart on the back of his book and he said, if you look at what scientists actually do, the great discoveries in science are often accidental or they come from people who totally disregarded what we think of as, you know, popper and the scientific method. No, totally. Yeah. I love the example of Marconi who was right because he was wrong. He thought that electromagnetic waves might curve one and so he tried to center it across the Atlantic, but he just didn't anticipate the ionosphere. So the electromagnetic wave bounced off the ionosphere accidentally and then he sent the message successfully. I think poking at the boundaries of reality often gets you really amazing results and it like you said, sort of can be accidental and that's not to say, you know, it's like the persistence finds you when you're hard at work. You need the hard work. Often it's helpful to have some domain expertise, but you know, the thesis of that book against methods, the idea that there's some sort of formula and to be this sort of pedantic nitpicking expert makes you most likely to be next in line for the actual next innovation, I think, is sort of a ridiculous notion. Well, you know who really put Robert Temple on the path that he's on. Who? Arthur Young. No way. Yeah. So are there young put Robert Temple on the path that he's on? Robert Temple when he was a teenager. He was very precocious and he, if I recall correctly, he got a scholarship and he was a student that might have been Temple University or another university in Philadelphia where Arthur Young was living and somehow they got connected and as a teenager in college, younger than his classmates, Robert, Arthur Young sort of took him under his wing and he actually helped Arthur write the first draft of the reflexive universe. That's amazing. That's such a wild story. So for the audience, a little bit of context on Robert Temple, he's this amazing, also very polymathic thinker. He's written a few different books. He wrote a book called The Serious Mystery, actually, about the dogon people in which African country and I think in Mollie, I forget. And they somehow, in their tradition, knew that there were two serious planets, serious A and serious B, or is it two stars, yeah, two serious stars, a binary star system. And astronomy sort of backed it up much later and they had a whole people that were kind of coming from that civilization that endowed humanity with arts and sciences and wisdom and knowledge. And also has written an amazing book called A New Science of Heaven. And this book combines, I'd say, plasma physics with metaphysics. And it is amazing because, you know, usually I open up these books and I'm like, I'm expecting a lot of kind of woo, woo, mushy brain thinking, a lot of, you know, mutually exclusive things are true at the same time, you know, everything is everything's style stuff. And I'm reading this book and he's talking about Nobel Prize winners who he's, you know, regularly in communication with, goes through a whole history of plasma physics and then connects that with how, you know, Moses speaking to the burning bush could be like a plasmoid or whatever that's, you know, kind of a modern UFO encounter. And then specifically talks about cordolofsky clouds, right. In the L5 position, he's written an amazing research paper as a kind of a follow up on this, which is this cordolofsky cloud between at the Lagrangian point, between the moon and the earth. Right. And so the Lagrangian point is where gravity perfectly cancels out so that this like sort of big plasma ball can sort of sit there. And he believes that it's responsible for these long delay echoes, these radio transmissions that were sent in the early 1920s, where, you know, sometimes a few minutes later, you'd get the exact same message back that you sent out. And he thought that those messages were coming from this cordolosky cloud. He claims that plasma itself is self-organizing. It plasma is physical, but it's non-molecular. It's really ionic. And most of the universe is composed of plasma. Stars are made out of plasma, the large gas clouds that cover the galaxy are largely made out of plasma, though there's some what they call dust mixed in with the plasma. And plasma physicists have said it's incredibly self-organizing. So these, they're called the cartolofsky clouds. They're two of them, as I recall, at the L5 point. They are approximately nine times as large as the earth itself. They're barely visible to our instruments because the plasma clouds are how would you describe it. They're not dense. And but he says that the plasma cloud can have a structure far more sophisticated or intricate than the human body and he believes that it could be conscious entities so fascinating. And there are studies now supporting that where you know plasma seems to cohere to a human heartbeat when a person walks up to it. It's almost like the random event generators where when you look at plasma it seems fundamentally erratic and random, but it can cohere almost in an intelligent way. You can get really cold bits of plasma coinciding with really hot bits of plasma. And this goes hand in hand with Rooper-Childrax idea that the sun is conscious because the sun is obviously made of plasma and maybe coronal mass ejections or you know cosmic radiation is a way of shining that into sending that intelligence you know to earth in some way. Well, the universe would be 99% composed of plasma and for people who say and I think it's very credible that the universe as a whole is conscious that that would be a way of thinking about it. Yeah, that's right. Atomic matter is the exception to the rule and most of what constitutes the universe is are actually these charged ions and then you get into really interesting ways of connecting that with your survival of the soul after death research where okay, where does the energy of the soul go and maybe it's around us. Maybe it's always surrounding us and maybe it exists in these sort of plasma forms and when you see testimonies of people in the quote unquote UFO legacy program and these plasma balls seem to kind of cohere and become inert and turn into these solid objects and then come out of the sky once they're summoned or it's a certain cases directed energy is used against them, which is really sort of dystopian thing to even think about. It's like plasma can turn back into particulate matter and then particulate matter can turn back into plasma and that's not even an anti-scientific thing to say because these are just phase transitions that can occur all the time, but maybe that's what happens when you die as you go into your plasma state. I think there's another wrinkle that you could add to that, which is the idea of higher dimensions of space, which are essential in string theory and the whole series of related theories, membrane theory and so on and physics all involve the mathematics of higher states of or let's say additional states of physical space. In addition to the three dimensions that we normally experience, mathematically you can go right up to what's called Hilbert space, which is a space of infinitely many dimensions. I don't think we can rule that out either, although I know Arthur Young, who was a huge inspiration to Robert Temple, would disagree, Arthur would have said that what we really should look at is a reduction in dimensions, not more dimensions. I don't know what we should look at. I think we're bumping up against our limits, but Ken Wilson, who was a physicist at CERN, he had this idea called re-normalization where materials would go through phase transitions based on the amount of energy that was being input into the material and they would have properties attributed to them that would be totally disconnected from one another depending on the energy state of what's being transmitted to the material. You could think of physics like that too, and you could think of that with respect to energy and maybe with respect to scale as well. You have to wonder what's going on with plasma. Speaking of its connection with possible soul after life, that sort of stuff. In Buddhist traditions, in Shinto traditions, I don't know if you're familiar with this Japanese concept of the Hito Dama, but it's these plasma orbs that represent the soul, and they sort of go up in the afterlife if you can watch a Miyazaki felt like the boy in the heron, and it's sort of this hole, almost Persephone's quest style, tale of the afterlife, but you see these little plasma balls and these are these souls that are disembodied. I'm not familiar with that, but it would make sense, and I think Robert Temple would concur. He has told me that he has communicated with plasma beings. Really? Yes. He's personally communicated with plasma beings. I did a lengthy interview with Robert in which he talked about astral projection, traveling through the universe, but he described a moment. He was flying on an airplane. He said, "Plasma being entered the airplane," and he had a lengthy conversation with her. It was a female. I had some extremely important interactions when I was flying to Singapore at 38,000 feet or whatever it was, and one of them came into the plane. She was a young woman, so a higher entity, and I was asleep, and she bent over. I could see her in my sleep, bending over, because she's about 8 feet tall, you know, these higher entities are always tall, and she kissed the top of my hand and moved me up. What did she talk about with him? She talked about her relationship with her father of all things. Wow. But so she was just a fully disconnected from his own life. Yeah. Whoa. That's what he claimed, and if it was anyone else other than Robert Temple, I probably would have dismissed the idea completely, but he's a solid, credible person to my way of thinking. No, I think he's a really hard-headed guy, and now I'm, you know, maybe I'm over pattern matching here, you know, as one tends to do sometimes with these topics, but I think of blue beings showing up. I've had a past guest who was a construction worker, and a blue being showed up in his bedroom and transmitted sophisticated physics principles to him, and it put him on the radar of Eric Davis and Hal Putoff, people who, you know, whose physics prowess, you know, is kind of hard to argue with. You have this amazing blue being experience that prompts you to get into quantum physics. Because of what this being had showed me, I started looking into this notion of longitudinal scalar waves. Now, these were shown to me by this being as slinky, so to speak, that that exists all around us. You know, he's really interested in all these kind of non-standard, you know, extended electro-dynamical models and speaks about these things in like fairly sophisticated ways, where like, I don't know how you get from construction worker to that. And so he's talking about this blue plasma being transmitting this information to him. There are other examples of blue beings, Whitley Strieber talks about them. He calls them cobalts. Yeah. Wow. And I did an interview with Robin Foy, who was one of the people who organized what's called the Skoll Experiment in Psychical Research. One of the strongest cases in the literature of an ongoing research program that manifested all sorts of dramatic paranormal phenomena. And Robin Foy was the central organizer of that, he's now deceased. And he talked about being in seances where a blue extra terrestrial being would manifest, manifest physically to the point where he could touch him. Whoa. And these blue beings, I feel like are generally described as good. But maybe that's just my own anecdotal experience. Is that your understanding too? Like I think of gray aliens and they seem neutral at best and harmful at worst. And then these blue beings are often, you know, I was just at this Joe Dispenser retreat, you know, and it was really interesting. And you know, you're doing these meditations and you know, you're tapping into your pineal gland. And in some ways, it's like a systematization of like a Kundalini experience. And so I think there's a lot of precedent for all sorts of miraculous healings occurring through this method, Dispenser says that in his, you know, deep meditations, blue beings show up in the room and they tell him that the collective, the people in the conference need to vibrate higher in order for the blue beings to fully manifest and heal. And often in these healing, these like kind of spontaneous healing occurrences, the people say that the blue beings are doing the healing. It's interesting. I don't know much about it really. I don't either. Boy, and your anecdotal experience is are the blue beings generally positive or? Well, yeah, I would say so, but I probably say the same thing about all of them. I can't say that I'm very knowledgeable, not ever having had any firsthand experience with any ET type of being. And I've heard positive things about the grays and the mantids and the Nordics and maybe not the reptilians, but I wouldn't necessarily discount them either. I recently heard about them. positive story with the reptilians and you know I don't know this guy very well but it's like I don't know. Well I'll tell you my bottom line on on all of this and it comes through the raw channelings that Puharic was involved in with Carla Rookert who published the raw material in the law of one. I like the law of one. I subscribe to it and it is that we are one with every everything so you know the most hideous creatures on earth or elsewhere are part of who we are. Yeah it feels like that. Sometimes these beings and I was re-listening to your interview with John Mack and John Mack is talking about all these abductees and they're talking about being in a fierce state obviously the first time the ontological shock you see a gray being in your bedroom or something then he took it one step deeper with you and he said but often the abductees starts to identify with the being. A very powerful dimension of this phenomenon is what I call the double identity aspect. When you go deeply into the experience we get past the trauma of the reproductive insults that are involved here and you come to a place where the individual acknowledge particularly through connection through the eyes which is a very profound aspect of it's the joining the bonding that occurs through the eye connection. When you get past that you the experiences as they're called will often experience themselves as aliens if they have a whole other identity as an alien. And there's this sort of double identity where it's like they actually remember sort of seeing themselves through the being's eyes or being the being themselves and so that's just fascinating it's this idea you can sort of port your consciousness into anything. Terence McKenna had an interesting way of describing that he said we are so unfamiliar with our own depths that when we get confronted with it we think it's an alien. Yeah I mean are you familiar with cobalistic traditions where often demonic seeming or bad being show up when somebody is sort of seeking some primordial truth. And those beings it's like the there's a Mozart flute symphony where you fly by these demons and you know you're playing flute and then they turn into your angels after you like get past that level. And so in a lot of these sort of celestial ascent traditions there are seven levels and you have to like discard you know a garment or you have to say a pass code or something at each level whether it's you know, resolutionism or Sumerian or you know the hecka lotes and in the Hebrew tradition. Well it's sad and I think it's true if you visit cathedrals or especially various temples in Asia there are demons guarding every temple. And they're there for a purpose and Buddhism they're in the service of the Buddha. Yes or they're an excavation of your own impure motivations. And in order to be in the holiest of holiest arc of the covenant you have to be really of pure intent. And you have to confront your own shadow. Yeah what's the the young quote you know until you confront your subconscious you call it fate. I haven't heard that one but it makes perfect sense it's consistent with what we're talking about that oftentimes and very often in the UFO literature people who are abducted take Whitley Strieber as an example who said he was raped annually and to this day decades later he puts an ointment on to cover the wounds he experienced but at the end of the day he says it was a communion. Right yeah he is so fascinating like you know I know there are a lot of people that dismiss him I think he's extremely high openness. This is the tricky thing with a lot of these people it's like the high openness is what requires the greater epistemology and the greater amount of experience that these people they have literally like a wider aperture. But then because they're high openness they're what I think traditional western skeptics would also call credulous. So it's this weird a hand in hand you know like one has to go with the other almost. And so I think I would describe Whitley as somebody like that and I don't know if you experience this but when I'm in Whitley's presence I feel something I feel like oh you're like in a your reality is like a local pocket of consensus reality that is different than the one I'm normally operating in. Jeffrey Criple who co-authored a book with Whitley tells about the time they shared a room together at the Esselen Institute and in the middle of the night Jeffrey had this experience and all he could think was oh my god. Like this is real and it's happening now and he warned me because I have invited Whitley to stay in my house. He said you better be ready for what what you experience. And I think my philosophy is you know welcome at all is terrifying is it may seem it's probably all for our good. I mean we we live on this planet in a world where probably 50% of the human population are experiencing terrible privations and misery and political repression and not enough food and terrible diseases that are not being attended to but there's a reason for all of that. And I think ultimately that we're here to know that we could experience anything we could experience being evaporated in the middle of a nuclear explosion and then discover that we'll survive even that. Yeah that's beautiful. That brings to mind a quote which is with God all things are possible. Yeah. What does that mean to you? Well among other things that it could mean all things are God. So you think we are splintered fragments of a whole and we are sort of reconnecting to that whole we are we are piecing piecing ourselves back together. We exist for the purpose of so that that whole can come to know itself. It's like an Alan Watts idea. That's brilliant. Well Jeffrey this has been a blast. Again I know we could go for another few hours but we'll do around to you at some point. I'll have to come to New Mexico and yeah I just really appreciate your time and yeah everything you've contributed to humanity with your show your work and yeah you're such a rich kind of pool of all sorts of amazing history. I mean they're just the amount of people you've intersected with who to me are like these you know Godfather legends Godmother legends come to New Mexico it would be a pleasure and an honor for me to interview you. Oh come on I'm dad you say the word. I would love to come out. Okay good. Yeah no that that would be a instant yes. We'll put it in the calendar. Oh man well thank you that would be so fun. I don't know I don't know if I'm qualified but I'll try to come prepared. Thank you so much Jeffrey. Well cool till next time. Till till till Albuquerque. [Music]