The Man That Hacked NASA and Found UFOs [Interview w/ Gary McKinnon]

There's a live arrest warrant out on you now, right? You can't go to the US now. I want me into Paul Redlist. The biggest military computer hack in all time. We talked about the case of computer hacker, Gary McKinnon, on which the Prime Minister has expressed very clear views. Well, on Mr. McKinnon, we have proceeded through all the processes required under our extradition agreements. I'll just a guy, normal guy, interesting to you, folks. Haven't to have some IT skills. Nothing genius-level. You hacked into the army, the Navy, the Air Force, the Department of Defense, and NASA. They wanted to put you in prison for 60 years, so. 17. for 70 years. And I bought potassium chloride. And I was just going to swallow it and have a heart attack and die. Oh my god. Mr. McKinnon is accused of serious crimes. The reason that you are here today on this show is because what you found. He found, he says, "photographic proof of alien spacecraft and the names and ranks of something he called non-terrestrial officers." I was in my dressing gown up to like four in the morning, smoking weed, drinking beer, right of my life really. The first one I looked at was the one where I saw the picture. And so I double-click this. But it was very, very slow. I was on a 56K dial-up. And I was just thinking, "My god, this is my Eureka moment." Then there's like slowly a hemisphere started appearing. I'm thinking, "Fuck, that's a planet." "Hmm, what the hell?" And then suddenly there's a big, straight kind of silvery line. A cigar-shaped object. I see the mouse man. I see someone else's out of the computer themselves. They right-clinked, disconnect, and boom. That was it. I was cut out. What do you think photographed it? Very good question. This spreadsheet was titled "Non-Terrestrial Officers." So not on the earth. And that was incredible. I had one very strange experience that I can't explain to this day. I was suddenly working up by a really sharp pain. Then immediately I just went, "Oh, in my left heel, there were two. I have funny circular holes." Wow! Weird. Explain what's going on quickly. I can't turn my phone off. You can see my finger is on the power button and both. This is like a hard reset. That's never happened before. Absolutely. It's never happened before. But you're with Gary McKinnon. How is this possible? Nothing to do with your computer, that bad. Dude, existence cannot longer be denied. Before we dive into the incredible story of Gary McKinnon, I want to shine a light on one thing his story reminds you of instantly. Online privacy. Gary is a brilliant self-taught hacker who pulled off what the Pentagon called the biggest military computer hack of all time. All from a bedroom in London. In this interview, Gary goes into extreme detail about what he found in some of the world's most sensitive files. And I still can't wrap my head around what you're about to hear. After hearing what he found, you might think he hit the ultimate UFO disclosure jackpot. However, the moment he went online, a digital trail started forming. Think about the moments most of us could get exposed. It won't look like Gary's story, where he broke into sensitive government systems, saw something truly unbelievable floating in space, and then had his access cut off mid-session. For most of us, our risk exposure is usually much simpler. Like joining hotel Wi-Fi, airport Wi-Fi, or even your office network. Going incognito doesn't hide your browser from the Wi-Fi owner, and your internet service provider can just log what you do online. That's why I use ExpressVPN. It encrypts and rerouts my traffic through secure servers and masks my IP. I literally turn it on before doing sensitive research for the show. Like looking into weather mid-century scientists, Thomas Towns and Brown cracked anti-ravity in the 1950s. That's exactly when I want my browsing to stay private. So if you're like me and you like going down crazy rabbit holes, make sure your research isn't exposed on whatever Wi-Fi you're on. Thanks to our sponsor ExpressVPN, you can now get up to four extra months of your ExpressVPN service by clicking the link in the description below at expressvpn.com/americanalchemy. That's expressvpn.com/americanalchemy to get the privacy you deserve. Thanks again to ExpressVPN for sponsoring today's historic episode. Because if Gary's story teaches us anything, it's that your online privacy matters. Legend has it that in 1943, the Navy tried to teleport a ship in what's now known as the Philadelphia experiment, and it kind of worked. It disappeared, reappeared, and then half the crew got atomically fused into the ship's walls. Others just vanished. No one was where they were supposed to be. Talk about a breakdown in communication. And you know who was leading the whole project? My favorite, the mid-century anti-gravity inventor, Thomas Towns and Brown, who literally had a nervous breakdown that year due to the very poor communication among the team members. You know what that sounds like? Your team, before you had "Quo". This year, upgrade your system to a workspace that keeps your team from shattering across dimensions. If you've ever tried to schedule a meeting across five time zones and six platforms, you know the absolute horror of losing people to the ether. That's why today's episode is brought to you by "Quo", spelled Q-U-O. The smarter way to run your business communications. It's a single streamlined command center for calls, notes, transcripts, chats, even AI summaries. And all in one shared reality, yours. No vanishing, no fusing into calendars, just your team, fully entangled and synced across time zones, time lines, even caffeine levels. Make this the year where no opportunity and no customer slips away. Try "Quo" for free, plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to "Quo.com/jessie". That's Q-U-O.com/jessie. Quo. No missed calls, no missed customers. Now back to the show. This is such an honor. I am here with. He's been at the top of my list of people I've wanted to interview for years now. And I'm so lucky to have this opportunity through James Fox, the great documentarian Gary McKinnon. Oh, I'm glad to be here. I love your channel. I've had a long time subscriber. So yeah, I really like a lot of the interviews you do. I'm glad to be here too. Let's just go back to the early 2000s. Tell me the year and the day. Tell me about your life at the time and then I want to get into the actual event. I can't remember the day, but the year was 2000. Early 2000. And my life pre-todd that I'd always had a deep interest in UFOs. Mainly from my stepdad. He used to live in Falkirk, which is near Bonnie Bridge, which is in Scotland. It's like a Scottish UFO hotspot. Many many sightings, almost like a tourist attraction. You have people go there to see UFOs. And I had one sighting myself when I was about 12. And I was looking out of my bedroom window. And I saw this kind of reddish orange glowing light. And it was moving in an arc from there to the horizon. And it was like brown in motion. It wasn't a straight line. It was like wiggling around and just thought what an earth is that. And I was also a member of BEFORA at the time, the British UFO Research Association. Yeah, I was hooked from an early age. And so I guess it only made sense that eventually I try and do something to further my own interest and find out more. Unfortunately it involved breaking the law. Sorry, mom. So you already have an interest in UFOs. Had you seen a UFO or just at one sighting? Just at one sighting. But I had my stepdad stories. Hate seeing them as brother, my step uncle, and seeing them. Yeah. And so you have this personal interest. And then do you have the hacking background or do you have any cyber background? Are you really good with computers? No hacking background. I used to, I was good with computers. I started off an Atari Games console in '78, '79. And then eventually got the Atari computer, learned to program in basic at first. And then machine code, assembler language, moved up from that. And then eventually got jobs in computing. Very low level jobs to start off with. Let work installation, Windows configuration. Then did computer science degree, which I eventually failed because I spent too much time in the student bar. But yes, so I eventually ended up contracting with a bank. It's quite high level stuff, but doing very basic sort of networking stuff. So I had a good background in networking, especially Windows, knew how they communicated and some Linux, stroke Unix, Solaris, stuff like that. So when the internet came to Britain, '95, I think I first had the internet. And the first thing I searched for was UFOs. And it was very popular, loads of websites, loads of information. And fast forward about five or six years, I read the disclosure project book. It's from Greer and Hestane. And they told you installations, locations. And I thought, I've got to have a look at this. I wanted it from the horse's mouth. I didn't want to just believe or want it to know. And so I thought I could use my basic networking skills. Just to do a scan, you know, light scan on American military networks, which is mad now. But then it was just kind of like a playful idea. And I wrote a Pillscript. Pills Programming Extraction Reporting Language, just a scripting language. And I could run that across thousands of machines in minutes and find a blank password or passwords that were either blank or password admin, a basic list. And when you do like wide-scale fishing like that, you do, you know, some fish bite. And that was my basic method to get the entrance to these places. And so some of these extremely sensitive American military sites had blank passwords. >> Good time. >> That's crazy. I mean, although that seems beyond belief, it also makes sense. Like the government's way more incompetent than often especially people in UFO world give them credit for it because we assume they have workable reverse engineered crafts that they know how to use it well or where so like, you would of course would have password setup. But 2000 is early internet. We're still worried about Y2K, you know. So like we didn't really understand how a lot of this stuff worked. It was this big experiment. And so wow, so that sort of fishing thing came up with some fish. >> Yeah. >> And as you said, the government really hasn't taken it for this, especially the military. They don't, well, they didn't then employ specialized IT workers. They trained up existing military employees in the basic techniques to run a network. So the one and via security aware guys running government networks, somebody doing networks. >> And are you, so while you're doing this, are you just like sitting in a apartment or something? >> It's a bit embarrassing. My girlfriend and I at the time, we were living in her aunties' house in the ground floor. And I was in my dressing gown up to like four in the morning, smoking weed, drinking beer, just right of my life, for a young-ish guy. I think I was 36 at the time. >> I don't think that's embarrassing for you. I think it's embarrassing for the sites you hacked into. Okay, so you're getting a little late night buzz and you're, you're at your girlfriend's aunt's house and you're just like, I want to find, I want to know for myself what's going on in UFO world, you do this blank password search. You actually come up with some results as far as sites that you can get into. What do you look at first? >> Well, the first thing I had to do was test my method. So I did that on British sites. We're currently in Cambridge, home of the famous university. I had Cambridge's FTP server, file transfer, protocol server, and Oxford as well. And a couple of polytechnics at the time, which are now universities. And I realized the technique worked. If you cast far enough, a white net, you know, something's going to come in. And then I thought, okay, let's go from the locations. And my list of locations all came from the disclosure project book. And also, I forget the title of it. There was a hacker's network document going around of a list of potential UFO secrecy sites. And I took some of the names from there. But all that told you was the network names. All the particular department of defense, like some department that owned that network. So I used a site at the time, which was called Nees IP Index. And this guy, a dancer, worked. He used like domain search tools and built a huge list of who owns what subnets. So I could just grab a block, plug it into my script and scan like a quarter of a million computers in eight minutes. Typically, 5% would respond. And then from that 5%, a further 5% would have blank passwords. Okay, okay, got it. So you do this like narrowing process. And you end up with what is it like 97 sites that you can get into or something like that? Yeah, that was the end result. Which is a lot of sites. And what do the sites include as far as acronyms that people would be familiar with or program names, people would be familiar with? Okay, so, and I say, I got into Fort Mead. Deezer, defense information systems agency, DOD networks, basic army networks, navy networks, you staff, your Salesforce networks. Okay, wow. So yeah, there's some pretty intense organizations that at the very least we know hold the keys to all sorts of military technology secrets that confer tactical advantage to the US. If not some of these deeper, more interesting mysteries that you and I share and interest in. So what do you do next as far as your search and what do you find? Yeah, okay. So one guy I've got potentially thousands of IPs to search the individual computers. And once you find a blank password and these are Windows networks, you need to become the administrator, which is like, you know, the highest local account. And eventually the domain administrator, which controls the entire network. So once I was on one PC or a network, I then attack the domain server and get that password. And that's through dictionary attacks, password cracking. I actually use a tool called Loft Crack. I don't know if that's to the round. And once I've done that, it's a huge job for one person, huge job. So I found a program called Land Search. This is all commercially off the shelf available software. And what Land Search enabled me to do was to type in search term and it would search every file and folder on all the local PCs that I had control of, which could be, I think the largest idea was 5,000 at one time, which took hours, you know, the whole light. So you know, that's how I, that was my system for making it durable for one person and also it depends on your search terms. These files aren't going to be called UFO secrets. So I had to look for things like, you know, secret, top secret, just edithane just to, and PDF, PDF documents, we're particularly off a lot of stuff was in PDF, and the redacting they did on PDFs back then was not fully redacted. You could unredact it once you downloaded the file to your own PC. So it was a huge network wide document search and just grabbing what I could, spending hours getting it, then spending hours reading it and trolling through it. Are you, when you're spending hours reading it, is this like, you backed this stuff up on a hard drive or is it just on your PC? Yeah, download is my PC. Okay, so it's just on your PC. Wow. So you're going through all this stuff. Were there any other things you saw that were interesting outside of, you know, we'll get to the crazy kind of UFO related stuff that you found? Was there anything else that you saw while searching through these documents? I was looking for energy as well. I never found anything to do with that. One thing I have to say, I never found anything to do with solar warden. Solar warden is a huge rumor that was started by an anonymous poster on the above top secret forum. So there's no evidence for solar warden. And I have nothing to do that, never heard of it apart from, you know, rumors pretending to myself. Yeah, for the audience solar warden is, has become associated with the sort of secret space program, Gaia, you know, people like Corey Good, you know, that say that we have like a terrestrial, you know, we have like humans like in like deep space right now. And they engage in these like 20 years and back missions or whatever. And there's like a documentary on it. And it's like the, it's the worst documentary I think I've ever seen. Oh, but it is. It's like, I believe in a secret space program, but I don't believe Corey Good. Yeah, well, that's the thing. It's like pizza gate and Epstein. It's the best way to debunk the true or to pre immunize the population from ever actually looking into the truth is to kind of, you know, inoculate them, send out stuff that is directly adjacent to the truth and then ensure that that gets debunked because it's so prima facie ridiculous. Yeah, so the fact that there's some sort of, yeah, standard intel techniques. So the fact that, you know, a blog, an anonymous blog post, and then you have all these people kind of flooding the zone with secret space program stuff makes me think that there might actually be something next to that that might be, that might be true. That dovetails with what you did find anything else that you found that was interesting before the crazy stuff. Nothing to do with ET or anything like that, but it's very interesting what a one site have found the Jailers file every military base has a Jailer. And it's just crazy. You've got guys taking LSD, the work on submarines. Really? So lots of interesting human stories where they're taking LSD that work on submarines. Yeah, well, yeah, because the soldiers basically on the other board, they're like, oh, we're so good. I'm tripping now. And like, you know, the DL drugs, they've got Hell's Angels gangs, brilliant drugs. And so that was interesting for human story. It's nothing to do with what we're here to discuss today. Okay. Okay, that's fast. I thought for a second, you were talking about like MK Ultra, mind control, like taking LSD at the bottom of submarines and testing consciousness or okay. So just, you know, recreational, spice it up down there. Interest day. Yeah. And so you're systematically, you're looking for UFOs, you're looking for free energy, any other like, you know, kind of terms that are on your mind in going into the search. No, that was my main focus. And with UFOs, it was particularly the propulsion. What was interesting, it was the energy and the propulsion aliens didn't excite me so much because I'm sure they exist because it's a huge universe. But I want to do something that could the weekages, you know, that's people. And I was convinced that it was secret technology, but they knew something about the populace at large wasn't allowed to have access to. Yeah. Well, I think you were you were on to something maybe, but we're in Britain at the time. We had old age pensioners, they had fuel bills and energy was a really sad story for a lot of people. So to have something that was free. Yeah. And yeah, it was just too juicy not to have a go at finding. Yeah, I mean, it would be hugely disruptive to establishment institutions. You know, if, if, you know, our energy prices dropped from, you know, 50 bucks per kilowatt hour to like 50 cents per kilowatt hour, that would be hugely disruptive. It just would. I think it's a control mechanism as well. Just like water is starting to be food has been for a while. Yeah, anything that scares and can be accrued at the top, I think is totally a control mechanism. And anybody who doesn't think that, you know, having access to a critical threshold of oil has not determined American foreign policy over the last 70 years is nuts. Like, I mean, you see it with Maduro and Venezuela and then, you know, worries about what's going on in Iran, visa V that, you know, and so and like it's all, you know, very, very, you know, obviously interconnected. I mean, desert storm in the early 90s was basically pulled off because Saddam Hussein in overtaking Kuwait controlled the fifth of the world's oil supply. And that was just unacceptable. Yeah, one thing about Venezuela is it wasn't just America's domestic supply. It was what foreign powers could get China was about to do a deal with Venezuela. That's right. I think it would only amount to like one or two percent of China's imports, but it's still something. Yeah, still something, they're sitting on a lot of oil there. And you see this like these crazy sort of game theory dynamics of visa V China taking place with Greenland and other places. So it's it all cuts to these. And if you look at like why the US had to back down off this recent, you know, trade agreement deal with China and kind of concede some things, it was due to rare earth refinement being basically monopoly in China. And so, you know, these things are like very real things geopolitically. And so if I agree with you, I think it's very interesting if there's any sort of novel exotic physics that's stuck in a compartment in the government, you know, I'd like to know as well. And I even think they're probably interesting ways to use it geopolitically. Like if you're if you have it where it's like it's some sort of carrot for like, okay, maybe you don't give it to like, you know, gross dictators or whatever, but it's like a way to like incentivize reform or I don't know, but like just keeping it to yourself, that seems wrong, maybe. Yeah, yeah. It's a real hard light to walk, isn't it? How do you have that public for you? We're not public for other countries because you have spies and totally. And there there are dual use implications for a lot of things. So like a good example would be, you know, controlled fusion or whatever would, you know, is the really positive, you know, use of nuclear fusion, which would allow for, you know, sort of free energy if you have over unity. But then, you know, fusion also creates the hydrogen bomb, right? And so, so like, you never know, like if you had some free energy device that you were putting in a compartment or something, if that also allowed a kid in his bedroom to blow up the world, like you do have to like do some calculations. Because this guy asked in Forbes online, who I don't know if you're familiar with him, but it talks about, yeah, MH370, the like these like, orbs wrapping around the plane and then it's absent and he's like sure that there's like free energy, like, you know, being held by. The most fascinating thing about that was, where's the provenance for that video? Yeah. It's never been shown. It's never been. Yeah, we don't know. Yeah. Yeah. But okay. So what do you find next? So there was a special witness first in Greer's disclosure project called Donner Hair. And she said that when she worked, she was pretty, actually was a, a NASA launch photographic specialist. I think she had secret clearance. Because she'd get, you know, very close up photos of all the mechanics and engineering and stuff for launches and the launch platform under the launch platform. And she said that she worked in building eight of Johnson Space Center, JSC. And the colleague who worked across the corridor, and this is all something he shouldn't have done, because they chatted, you know, had lunch together or whatever. And he one day he just back into across the corridor and said, come and take a look at this. And this is the day's a monologue photography. And so he's got, you know, big like contact sheets and slides and they used to be developed under red light and sewer nitri. And he said, what do you think this is? And there's a huge white disc on this satellite photo of the earth. And she being a photographic expert herself said, oh, it's just a blob of the emotion, you know, the old capicle of the sheets. And then he's grinning and he says, uh, dots on the emotion don't leave brown shadows on the ground. And there was a round shadow at the right angle, at the correct angle, the sun shining on the trees. I saw pine trees. I didn't see a coastline. I don't know where this was. But I looked at him and I was pretty startled because I'd worked out there several years and never seen anything like this, never heard of anything like this. And I said, is this a UFO? And he's smiling at me and he says, I can't tell you that. So I said, what are you going to do with this information? And he said, well, we always have to airbrush them out before we sell them to the public because they sell on the imagery to like colleges, universities, you know, earth shots and magnificent scenes from space. So yeah, his job was to block this stuff out and make sure we're going to get seen. And they didn't have Photoshop then. So I'm not sure, I think, you know, the airbrush term literally comes from a physical airbrush on the emotion where they just blur things. And you see lots of examples on this of like lunar photography from Clementine Mission, the lunar orbiter, the LROs, you know, recorded since over to. So I read this story, absolutely fascinating. He was this hardy qualified woman. She'd worked for a long time, Nazar. And I think the air force previously to that. And did she say this? She said flying saucer. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. She and she says so that shape, the circular shape. Yeah. And the shadow. Okay. Wow. And I was already in just a jolson space center at the time. So I thought building eight. Okay. I wondered if I still learning because she worked there. I think the late 80s or early 90s. So you're in the Johnson Space Center files on your PC. Yeah. I was already there when I read that. Okay. Yeah. So I thought I've got to have a look. Yeah. I thought how the hell do I find building eight. But luckily Windows has you can do network commands in a console rather than a GUI on the mouse. And you can type it like net start network status tells you all the people connected to the machine. And there's other commands whereby Nazar are great auditors of their system. So they have these special commands for auditing where you see the machine, the PC, the number, the serial number, the date when it was last maintained all stuff like that. And the building it's him. So I ran those commands that produced a list. And I stripped out I think it was about 1500 machines or maybe 150 machines. But once I stripped out the building eight machines, there was only like a dozen maybe. And I ran the black password script on them and I think about half of them were accessible. And the first one I looked at was the one where I saw the picture. And it was strange. It was, I did a lot of network support before that as well. And most users, desktops are carving in stuff short cards. See in my eyes, like an electronic posted notes. And these were very bare desktops. All the hands like two folders raw and process and maybe a couple of other shortcuts. And so I thought, I've got to look at this. It's got to be images. It's where she said it was. It looks like images. It says raw. It says processed. And I double clicked into the folders and it's a proprietary Nazar image format that I can't run on my desk. Not a JPEG, not a PNG. So what I had to do was basically, there was a, what was it called? There was, there was, I was trying, I basically had to run as a software. I had to double click it on the desktop because my hacking method, although I'd get in there with the blank password, which was CLI, come on line. Once I was in there, I was using remotely anywhere. I think it still exists. It's like PC anywhere. It's like you're sitting on the desktop. You can see the screen on your screen. And so I double clicked this, but it was very, very slow. I was on a 56K dial up, which was to give some idea of the speed. It was, if you download an MP3 music file now, you've got it in a few seconds. Then it was five minutes per megabyte. And a song might be three megabytes and 15 minutes for one song. No one would even accept that now. So I double clicked this. It was taking ages. I cancelled it. I turned down my remote graphical remote control thing into like eight big color, then four big color. Eventually, I think four big color or two big colors. It was basically four or five different colors. That was a shitty image. And but it came on the screen, like, you know, almost live while I think there are a few lines at a time. So it was coming in blocks. And I'm looking and there's like blackness. Then there's like slowly atmosphere started appearing. I'm thinking, fuck, that's a planet. What the hell? This could be what she said. Then the atmosphere comes into view. It's very blocky, but it's kind of blue, white. Some thinking it must be earth. And then suddenly there's a big, straight kind of silvery line that is coming down. Then that's, I guess what they now call a tink type. But if what we use to call cigar shade object. And this thing was admittedly as low resolution as coming down slowly. But this thing looked very kind of smooth. On the outside, there was no lines whether we'd be like plates fixed or screws and bolts and stuff. And I was just thinking, my god, this is my Eureka moment. Confirmed Don Hairstory. Not that Don Hairstory needs confirming. Yeah, and it got to, I got the whole ship, you know, in view. And then it started to go below that, where I would see the rest of the, the, the sphere of the earth, I assume it was the earth. And it was just amazing. The only man made, possibly man made thing that was there. It was like geodesic domes, like radar stations, one of top below and both sides. Not that well estranged is kind of man made looking, but not man made looking. And then I've got graphical remote control. I see the mouse move, someone else, the person, someone else is out the computer themselves. And they're moving the mouse. They right clicked on the local area network icon, you know, right next to your clock and the bottom right of your windows, Tospa disconnect. Boom. That was it. Come. I was cut out. And I'm sitting there, I'm waiting. Oh my god. I'm afraid you breath in my Eureka moment. Come on, come on, come on. Oh my god. Anything else on the cigar. So smooth, no, but doesn't seem like rivets or seams. It's hovering above the earth. Do you notice anything else? Just like a very smooth cylinder, the geodesic domes. And so the little dome, dome on top, dome on bottom. Yeah, I'd either end and on either end. Yeah. It could just be the kind of cigar. Sure. To like the closure of the cylinder. Sure, sure, sure. Fascinating. Yeah. So interesting. And did you ever speak with, you know, yourself or through intermediaries with Donna here? Oh yeah. And did she say that's the disc that I saw? And I just, because I think of disc with her and then cigar tick-tack with you. Yeah, she saw that one photo of disc, but she also spoke to them. Okay. So these are probably different images. You're just confirming that the same building probably has a whole lot of images that they're sitting on. Yeah, even though maybe 10 or 20 years later, apparently this is still the place where those images, yeah, UFOs or exotic craft that have been ever brushed out. It is proof that at least, I mean, it's really interesting that you have a whistle blower come out with nobody has any evidence for her claims at this point. And she says, you know, this is where we processed the images. I was shown this image building eight Johnson Space Center. You independently, you know, halfway across the world, hack into Johnson Space Center. Look at building eight. And then one of the first things that pops up on your screen is an image of a UFO, a hovering above the earth, which is clearly not the exact same UFO, but it's, you know, it's definitely exhausting. It's nothing, you know, it wasn't rocket. It wasn't ISS. It was like a space lab or what doesn't sound like a satellite to me as cigar like rotating around. There's no antennae either. There's nothing like telemetry, these little sensor-looking stuff. It doesn't mean that is wild. And then also now we have the lucky hindsight, you know, in 2026 of Commander David Fravers' experience of 2004, just a few years later off the coast of San Diego, where he sees a tech-tack object. And they have, you know, apparently radar. We've seen the fleer imaging, the thermal imaging of this thing. It's for everyone to see. Dependagon is verified that that's real. All four of us, because we were in F-18F, so we had pilots in Wizzo in the back seat. Look down a small, saw a white tech-tack object with a longitudinal axis pointing north-south and moving very abruptly over the water, like a ping-pong ball. It rapidly accelerated in front of us and disappeared. Our wingman, roughly 8,000 feet above us, lost contact also. And then you have a lot of other witnesses. You have his co-pilot, you have another plane and two pilots in that plane. You have, you know, a whole lot, you have the, obviously radar. Some guys on the ship exactly. So, are you the first, like, other, I mean, I think, I believe there's some other tech-tack in cigar. Like, there's, you know, I think flying, they're, they're Air Force documents from the late 40s that describe flying be taint tanks. I don't know if you know about this. Yeah, David Grush, you famous UFO whistleblower has talked about this. And then in Robert Hastings' great book, UFOs and NUX, which talks about UFOs showing up at nuclear installations all over the world, including in the UK, actually at Rendlesham Forest in 1980, really famous case. He talks about tech-tacks or cigar-shaped objects often being sort of like a mothership and saucers flying out of the tech-tacks. Yeah, I think that was it. Mailstrom, AFB in America as well, similar thing happened. Yeah, like definitely a mothership kind of configuration. Yeah, no, Tutshon has happened at Mailstrom, actually. So, it's definitely likely that in certain cases some sort of ticked, because the tic-tack or cigar is one of the most common descriptions people have. There's a case we were just talking earlier, you know, thank you James Vox, great documentarian for the intro to Gary. It's great guy. And we were saying that he sort of single-handedly resuscitated this obscure Brazilian UFO crash in 1996, the Virginia case. And there's a guy, Carlos DeSosa, who's an ultra-light pilot, geography teacher, who literally saw the crash. And he felt the material just like in Roswell at Jesse Marcel. It feels the material and it feels like, you know, memory metal. I can see quite a few pieces of debris on the ground and I picked them up, and it was kind of curved. And then I was surprised to see how light it was. So I said, I'll keep it. And so I crunched it up. And so I made this kind of movement, you know, to put it in my pocket. What happened was this foil or this sheet regained its shape. So I thought, what is this? I was completely floored. Yeah, it's rung back into its original shape and guess what the shape of the craft was that he saw that crash. Right. So cigar, tic-tac. Yeah. So yeah, lots of versed in quantities there. What was your first instinct when you saw it? How did you feel? And what did you think, you know, often I think like if you're taking like a multiple choice test, it's like your first instinct's often right. You know, and then you second-guess yourself. So did you have like an on-the-spot interpretation? I'm not an aeronautics expert or a space vehicle expert, but for me, you know, I watched space stuff with interest since I was a kid. And it wasn't, you know, more space stuff. So I knew that. But I wasn't, you know, I didn't know if it was extra terrestrial. You still don't, obviously. You know, it could be something man-made. But it was definitely something secret because it was nothing like like we already have of that. Dandee, did you have any sort of like instinct of, I mean, that obvious question is like, is it ours or is it theirs? Yeah. You know. It's a big distinction. Well, I think because of Don Hairst's story, my instinct was that yeah, it was alien because that's what she described. She described unknown things in high-res, not as a satellite imagery, that they had to airbrush out because I don't know if maybe they thought it would panic the public or there had no explanation for it. And what does she say as far as why they airbrushed it out and didn't just admit, you know, we were surrounded by these cool exotic objects. Yeah, we shared a few emails. She's passed now, unfortunately, God, let's us all. And we had one, I think it was like two and a half hour, three-hour phone conversation. And she thinks, like, just like a lot of us do, that a lot has been hidden. It's been hidden for reasons of control. But it's weird when you try and extrapolate from this, you think, well, wouldn't you use technology like that in a war? If you had that, would you use it openly to your advantage or to me, that tells me that it's still unknown even to the people of the highest authority on this subject? I think that's right. If it's not well known and it's flying with impunity over our nuclear sites and insensitive airspace and in space next to, you know, our recon satellites and stuff, you would be extremely embarrassed, you wouldn't be able to admit. You know, but if you did know what was going on, you would just tell the public, yeah, we not only do we know what's going on, but then you try to signal that you know what's going on and you've like reverse engineered it because you'd want to, you know, kind of soften, you know, the enemy sort of thing. And so I actually think some of modern disclosure might be, you know, intel tactics to try to, like say that we know more than we do, but also recruit on the topic because like actually they don't really know what's going on. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely right. Embarrassment is a huge factor. Yeah. Even just my hacking wasn't embarrassment. So if they're embarrassed about something like that, can you imagine? Yeah. I mean, it's just indeterminable. It's hugely different. And also fear because we why, you know, are they here? Yeah. What do they do? Why are they interested in nuclear missiles? Is it for protection of ours? Is it the we destabilize some kind of interdimensional thing? Yeah. We're fucking with atoms. Did you get the sex here? Right. We are. We're doing a lot. Genetics, atoms, bio-warfare. So, so you, when you saw this thing, did you get the sense that it was moving in a predictable orbit? I mean, it's a static image. So you have no way of knowing. But did you get the sense that it was like moving in an orbit or that it was like just kind of maneuvering around? Well, I see photos of the low earth orbit stuff. And this looked to be maybe, I mean, I have no idea of the scale of this thing. But with the hemisphere, it was way beyond low earth orbit. Okay. But I don't know. I mean, you know, there's actually a WikiLeaks email with John Podesta on it that's been deleted from the internet. But still if you go on the way back machine, I think there's some like Reddit forums that discuss this. Definitely a real email. And he is talking with kind of a contractor from some aerospace corporation, I think, in California. And he mentions that the contractor, I think the guy's name is Bob Fish, said they're having lunch together. And this is him recalling it in the email. And Fish says, yeah, we spotted some fast walkers today. And they were I think this was in specific reference to the DSP, the defense support program, which I think is this very deep geostationary kind of recon thing that the Air Force does. This was the Air Force at the time because now Space Force would do it, you know, post 2019. But I wonder if you saw a fast walker because also if you try to foyer a fast walkers, which John Greenwald did the space for or skets back and says, we, you know, clearly there are some records, but we can't we can't talk about that. Yeah. Yeah, it was the SCLA foyer to do it possible because as well. Maybe, maybe. Yeah, it might be the CIA actually might not even be space for it. It might be getting that wrong. But yeah, interesting. So, but I guess one question would be like, was it lateral to the earth? Like was it moving? Yeah, lateral to the earth. Because I think it wouldn't make sense to me if it was like vertical to the earth. Like if the if the butt was facing the earth, I'd be like, that doesn't feel like an orbit. Like it's in a predictable orbit. Yeah, it was definitely. It was lateral. It was at 90. Yeah. So that yeah, it's horizontal. Horizontal. I wasn't seeing it and don't see it. It wasn't a position to be rotating around possibly in order to traveling past or just traveling past. Yeah, or yeah. Okay. Yeah. So it wouldn't be it wasn't like going directly at the earth. It was like moving laterally. So what? Okay. So interesting. Any other detail, I guess you could you don't you don't know color, right? Because it's silvery white. I mean, it was very that was in like I think too big color. Okay. But or maybe four bit. But yeah, it was very kind of blocky and there's definitely white silvery white. And did you see any sort of I guess, I don't know how you'd see a shadow, but like did you see any sort of show? Because it's so far out from earth. Yeah. Interesting. Very good question. Yeah. Now yeah, so this takes me to I referenced the disclosure project a lot because that was the root of a lot of my locations and research. Yeah. And one of their witnesses, I forget his name, he was DIA. And he got a lot of the information to do with the satellites. And he he was the one that said most of the satellites are actually pointed out buts. And they're not like lower thought about communication satellites. So I assume if you've got very far out of satellites looking out, which you can also rotate them. Yeah. And the Kim ones. So that's the only thing I could think of. Okay. So that is fascinating. You see that. How are you feeling when you see that? Oh man. I was ready to inform the press. Tell the world, oh my god, look, it's true. And NASA knows, and NASA has no frayages and don't have us right. And for them, boom, disconnect is as it's loading. Yeah. So it hasn't even fully loaded. I saw like just under the bottom half of the ship. Yeah. And yeah, then disconnect. And you have no reason to lie about this. You've never made any money off of this, right? And if anything, you were kind of put on a witch trial. Like there's sort of this witch hunt for like 20 years where this like, you know, blanket extradition was attempted to be applied to you where they wanted to put you in prison for 60 years. So for 70 years. Mr. On his visit to the White House, David Cameron spoke to President Obama about the case and both agreed they could find an appropriate solution. We talked about the case of computer hacker Gary McKinnon on which the Prime Minister has expressed very clear views. You said you would work together to find a solution. So have you found one? Well, on Mr. McKinnon, we have proceeded through all the the processes required under our extradition agreements. It is now in the hands of the British legal system. We have confidence in the British legal system coming to a just conclusion. And so we await resolution and will be respectful of that process. Well, we had talks and they say, look, if we just come along, don't fight it. You do between age and 20. Like that's a good deal. No, thank you. I'll fight it. And yeah, and that was actually horrible. It was very depressing. I found out my own government because governments are made up of individuals and individuals have ties to other individuals in the DOJ and the CPS. Some of them what have we gone to? Just as a favor to the US, not because of anything to do with right or wrong or truth or justice, just as a favor, political port. So that was awful, not just for me, my family, your mom and dad. Weren't there some allegations of a meeting that was had at the American Embassy out here where it was like we want his head or something like it was very extreme language use. Yeah, Ed Gibson, who was attached to the US Embassy in London at the time, met with my lawyer and he said, we want to see him fry electric chair reference. Jesus Christ. Which is told me that Karen, amazing lawyer, stubborn as all through this and fought and fought and fought. Yeah, I was just, I mean, we already knew they played DUDE because I mean, people have to realize, you know, politics isn't about people being safe and well looked after us about the state. Further, it's a mistake and it's subjective and the protectors, the protection of your state to foreign states. Yeah, no, that is definitely the way of the land as is national security. And, you know, I just find it interesting that okay, you have guys like Snowden and Assange where wherever you lie with them, which like whether you think they're courageous and ideological in a way that really, you know, exposed all sorts of, you know, issues within the intel world and master valence and stuff. Or whether you think they put like, you know, Americans abroad in danger or whatever, which I think there are like, there is some nuance there. Like I do think some people in the intel world who talk about this say, well, there's some real like bad effects around around the stuff. And Assange is defense. He had lots of phone calls before releasing that information. So he actually agreed it with people in the state department. I didn't know that. That's yeah. Well, there you go. Yeah. But, but I was just getting to the point of whatever you think of those cases. Like maybe there's some, you know, like a more gray area or debate to be had or whatever. In your case, you're just, you're smoking weed in your girlfriend's ants little flat. And it's like 4 a.m. and you're just like a dude who's interested in UFOs since you were a child and you want to figure it out. And so I, it's just like, to me, if it's the US, like get your shit together. It's that should be your, you should be, you know, it's almost like they might have, uh, lashed out so much at you because they were in bear it. I mean, not you literally like, it's, it's on you. It's not on this like four English citizen who has no clearly like, I don't think you're like particularly ideologically set and like destroying America, you know, it's a thing though. I love Chicago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, well, we'll get to that kind of more meta conversation. But you also found some other pretty crazy things while you were while you were searching in your girlfriend's ants flat. And so yeah, what else did you, what else did you find besides this tick-tack? I think I was on a Navy system at the time. I can't remember cloud and weed and so on. But, um, there was a spreadsheet, Excel spreadsheet. And it was called because I was saying earlier about my search terms, it was UFOs, ET, terrestrial, anything spacecraft, anything I could think of, which probably wouldn't be in the, in the title of the document. But, um, this spreadsheet was titled non terrestrial officers. So not on the earth, which isn't necessarily alien. It could just mean space-based marines or, you know, secret space force. It had ship names, it had material, the material, the military spelling, not material. And it was transfers of weird chemicals like believed in them and other weird things that are hard to pronounce, ship to ship transfers and fleet to fleet transfers. And at the time, I looked up the ship names thinking US Navy must be boats, nothing, absolutely nothing. Do you remember the names of the people? Though I don't remember any of the names of the people, but there were long lists, you know, I think it was just initial surname. I don't think they were first names. And the ship names, I was expecting like USS Lincoln or, you know, Navy ships, but there was none of that. Everything I, and it wasn't Google at the time, I think it was ultra-vista, one of the biggest search engines at the time. And none of it was sea-going vessels. So you see a list of non terrestrial officers. And then you also see chemicals, what are the names of these chemicals? Believed in them, Barium, something was in there. They were very exotic. So, what does that imply? Do you remember the exact, so what is believed? Have you looked up what the uses are of this? Yeah, I remember believe them, but I kind of say now, believe them. They're very exotic. They used in like a magnetics. Lots of very kind of exotic industrial processes. A lot to do with metal hardening, if I remember wrongly, like metallurgy. Like you make an alloy and it makes it stronger than the original two components. So again, that time, now years later with the research you've done that people you've interviewed, it's all making more sense, especially when we come to the biofilm Brown stuff and dialectics. You'll get to that. And like nano-deposition of thin layer materials. Yes, yeah, thinly layered thinner than a human hair or whatever. Micron layered. This one sample is engineered in layers thinner than microns through a process unknown on earth. And for a purpose, we can only guess. Multi-layered bismuth and magnesium sample, bismuth layers less than a human hair, supposedly picked up in the crash-rich treeval of an advanced aerospace vehicle. No where could we find any evidence that anybody ever made one of these? Okay, this is fascinating though. So you see a list of not how many non-terrestrial officers? Oh man. So my screen at the time was the old like 800 by 600 monitors. I think I might have had 1024 by 768 resolution at the time. So your typical Excel spreadsheet without zooming in when you just load it up was probably 24 lines. I don't think of as about one and a half or two pages. So maybe like 30, 40 names. You don't remember any of the last names? No, sorry. You're killing me. Yeah, I'm kidding me. Yeah, you gotta give us a little breadcrumbs. Yeah, this is one of the main like criticisms of me. Why didn't you take a bloody screenshot just the whole print screen, all print, but I did actually I downloaded that Excel spreadsheet and when I got arrested, all my data was taken to ONI, Office of Naval Intelligence. So they still have my hard drives. I've tried to get them back for years and they said no, it's still a long-going investigation. Office of Naval Intelligence is the oldest intelligence agency in the US. I think it's 1882. And it's often deeply implicated in UFOs. 1882. So the National Security Act, which created the CIA, was in 1947. And then you had the OSS before that, which was kind of this wartime foreign intelligence effort. Yeah, but Office of Naval Intelligence well predates all of that. And you had Thomas Towns and Brown doing a lot of spooky science work for the Navy. And then you have this guy Harold Malmgren, who kind of ended up giving me kind of a turned into kind of a deathbed confession at the end of his life. And it was wild. I mean, he was like the Office of Naval Intelligence knows the most about this issue. And once you go in that door, the door shuts and you can't get let out. When you say, "Morning," Naval Intelligence are going to be around asking your questions about your study. They really got curious. And if they talk to you for anything, sometimes they only shouldn't. You really know a lot. They're not offering you a special access. It's how they operate. I said, "Brothers, that means you'll open the doors. You'll have full entry. The doors will shut and you'll be no exit the rest of your life." That is a closed system. And he kind of implied that they approached him in certain cases. And because of the fact that it was this closed system, he didn't want to engage. So very interesting. So they end up with your stuff. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. They were when the British police at the time was the NHTCU National Hightake Crime Unit in the UK. At first, they said to me, "Oh, you get six months as a computer machine, SAG 1995 in Britain. Six months, community service, no time." And then they went to America and visited Owen I and other top brass. And when they came back, the tone had totally changed. They were really serious. Which of course, eventually turned into facing 70 years in prison. So it was a huge, using a hammer to crack a nut. And they were just, you know, David and Goliath, the whole thing. So wild. Yeah. Well, it's huge. Like you said, I was just a guy, a normal guy, interesting UFOs. Happened to have some IT skills. A little bit of hacking, black parts, nothing genius level. And then like singing, boom, it just blows up. I tried to make an example of you. So when you think about those chemicals, and you know, we'll get into our mutual interest in Thomas Towns of Brown and anti-gravity experiments. So you think that they could have been used to create special alloys or what you might call metamaterials and UFO world, which allow for greater thrust in these anti-gravity experiments. Like one thing that is true about the Bifield Brown effect and this anti-gravity experiment is that if you use an insulator in the middle that is considered a high-k dielectric, which means it stores and discharges easily a lot of electromagnetism, a lot of, you know, electricity, it stores electric fields in it specifically. The thrust you see in the experiment is much greater from the negative electrode to the positive electrode. So do you think that, you know, I guess Beryem is actually in Towns and Brown's documents. Like he talks about all the time. Today is 20 on the time tonight. Exactly. So and then what was the other I can never pronounce it? Malibdena. Malibdena. And you looked into that and that's for like creating alloys. Yeah, I think it's a strength thing. Alloys been a long time since I looked into it, but I think that's what it was. It was like a strength thing alloy. Any other chemicals? It might have even had a shielding. Not gravitational shielding, like radiation shielding or something. I think maybe similar to that, but I'm not a physicist, so don't quote me. But it's super interesting if it's used on like current space vehicles. Like people should go out and look that up because if it is, you know, that might be an interesting way to do some patent searches. Yeah. Any other chemicals? Malibdena. Beryem. Strontium. Strontium. Yeah, Strontium. And Strontium is also mentioned in brown stuff, I believe, or. Comment on the others. Okay. But isn't strontium, I believe in one of Gary Nolan's pieces that he has that, you know, Stanford lab that he thinks might be UFO metamaterials that come from crashes. I believe has Strontium in it. Yeah, it's a good dielectric. I forget his K-Constant. But I know it's high. So it's also a high K-Di-Electric. Yeah. This is crazy. So you have a list of non-terrestrial officers. Yeah. Yeah. So. And then what is the fleet to fleet thing, man? This was fleet to fleet transfers because it was a. it was one spreadsheet, but it had taps. So there was the officer's names. There was ship names. And there was material, a material transfer. Do you remember the ship names? No. Okay. But what. Okay, when you're looking at this, what is your instinct as to like. Because there are all sorts of wild interpretations people have, you know, people make up the secret space program, solar-warden stuff. What was your. You're in the moment. What are you thinking when you see this? Well, that's exactly why I was. Imagine you were me. A UFO guy, you know, quite an active interest. And then finding this. And so obviously that's where my first thoughts go. So I'm thinking non-terrestrial officers. That's a baseline for the whole document. So the non-on Earth, but I was thinking, well, they could be. They're probably. It's probably people. They're not non-terrestrial because they're not human. They're non-terrestrial because it's non-earth base. So it's out of space. So Space Force was my first thought. It's got to be a Space Force. Obviously, secret. And then with the chemicals and stuff, and the ship names, then and fleet to fleet transfers. There's more than one ship. And then exotic materials. And so, you know, it's kind of two plus two equals four. Yeah. Obviously, it's to do with my mindset. That's what I was looking for. So that's how I interpreted it. Well, you know what I would do. If I was Office of Naval Intelligence and I hated Gary McKenna and you know what I would do, I'd make up some via Secret Space Program called Solar-warden, send people down the wrong trail. When actually I do have real, you know, deep space fleets and transfers. So the Solar-warden did come after me. Yeah, it did. So, but like I'm still trying to get to the. So the trend. What do you think that fleet to fleet transfer of what? Of people? Of chemicals. Of materials. Of materials. First you have the people, then you have the ships, then you have the chemicals. Okay. Metal elements. Okay. And do we think that the material is being transferred between human. Do we don't think that the material is being transferred between extraterrestrials and humans? Do we or do we think the material is being transferred between humans? I think, yeah, ship to ship. So I guess maybe this was kind of like a logistics train. Like a supply chain and space or something? Yeah, just to base it because you know, the army's all about more delivery or whatever. It's all about logistics. Right. And a lot of these materials, if they are layered extremely thinly and you have kind of atomic layered deposition style stuff, we know that manufacturing and space and in zero-g environments allows you. So a lot of these materials that go, it looks like it was built in zero-g. Like this is so crazy. The faults. So like maybe they built it in zero-g and then they're like conflating it with the UFO stuff, which actually just shows up around nukes and in other contexts or whatever. But like, they might have built it in zero-g. Yeah, yeah, that's the old camera's race explanation. It's not as simple as that. Okay, so there's like a space supply chain where humans are manufacturing these exotic materials in space that you literally couldn't, yeah, it made physically impossible enough. It on earth. Yes. That's fascinating. I don't think has anybody ever explicitly tied together your thing like this? Like we're doing now. This is fresh and unique. I love this. This is fascinating because I mean, that makes sense. That makes sense. Like the other stuff doesn't make something. It's sending people 20 and back into through the sun and do a portal or the, maybe that's possible. I don't know. Super soldiers are most. Yeah, super soldiers are more, I just we need more evidence if I have all entertained, you know, whatever, but you need evidence. You know, you can't, you can't just, yeah, I'm going to put to old stories. Yeah, but this is fascinating. Okay, so you, it's like a space supply chain logistics, like a space factory, essentially, where they're creating these metamaterials that you can't make on earth and you need deep space to create them. Yeah. And then so the non-terrestrial officers would just be humans overseeing this supply chain, this space supply chain. Yeah, this is pretty good because I never even saw it in that way before. This is fascinating. And what's ironic is they're probably making space travel that much easier by creating these high dielectrics, which involve greater thrust in the byfield brown effect. Yeah. Because they're like making like, you know, their own program more powerful. Yeah. With the fit. It's just fascinating. Yeah. Hmm. Well, wow. All right. I like that. I like discovery as we go. Yeah. I mean, who knows. But like that makes it speculation. It is speculation, but it the idea that we have people in deep space or we have like literal alien, like men in black style, like aliens walking among us. And then we put like navy suits on them, commander suits on them. They're like, you're a non-terrestrial officer or whatever. That makes less sense. Both of those make less sense. Just don't look at his huge, almost shaped eyes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He'll crawl out of his skin suit occasionally. But like, you know, it's like that we're stuck between those two options like that. Or, you know, it's like aliens in like, you know, military garb. Or, you know, literally humans that we've spent that we've sent into like super deep space or whatever. I've never believed any of the stories of adding contact with governments. I think it's just out of love dish. Yeah. No, I think a lot of that stuff is pretty ridiculous. It feels like passage material that like is meant to send people down the wrong trail or something. Yeah. At least I didn't feel like there's a ton of good evidence. I do think there are a lot of weird abduction cases where people experience things, you know, and, and, you know, have you ever had anything like that? It was back in 2006. My girlfriend and I were in what we call a bedside of the UK tiny flat on the first floor, not the ground floor. And we'd gone to bed, we gone to sleep. And I was suddenly working up by a really sharp pain in my left heel. And it felt like two or three a.m. I felt like I'd been, I was in deep sleep with a bit of a few hours. Well, what else that? I kind of leaned forward to check it out like something had bitten me that immediately I just went, oh, it was a sleep again. And the morning I woke up and we're like, I don't know why I'd gone to bed with my socks on or at least one sock on. And then I remembered what had happened during the night and I pulled the sock off. And in my left heel, there were two perfectly circular holes, both about five millimeters in diameter. And one still had a flap of skin, how you off it, like a whole punch used for paper, but about this for this for a part. Why it? I know. I thought what the hell with the first floor, I was trying to think of every possible conventional explanation. Was it a rat with perfectly symmetrical five millimeter teeth that come to my bed and bit me in the night. But I'm on the first floor, you know, not the ground floor where like rodents could be. No explanation whatsoever. I can't say much more than that because but I did later as I got more into electronic, electromagnetic. I did like scans and stuff. Then I didn't come up. Couldn't find anything wrong. But a few years later, I found out because this is something I'm always researching and looking for an answer because I still haven't got one. There's a company. I don't know if it was very signed. There's some chipping like electronic chipping company. And their process was exactly like that. No way. Yeah, double injection. And then years later, I've got two bumps that formed where those holes were and then moved around. And I still have those bumps on my heel today. Do you think a human did that? Do you think an alien did it? I'm thinking some kind of government tracking. Government tracking. I feel ridiculous saying it. Well, do you feel ridiculous saying? Because you had a 20 year, you know, prime ministers were negotiating with American presidents on your behalf because the American government had it out for you. So I don't think, you know, I think for a normal person being like, they wanted to chip me or whatever. That might be a little paranoid. But I think in your case, I'm not sure, man. Yeah, but even so, I wasn't wondering why, you know, I was a bail, everything was safe. I was contained as they would put it. But yeah, I just can't explain that. It's just weird as hell. Interesting. And do you still have that in your foot? Still have the bumps. Can I see him? Yeah. I hope no one's going to need foot fetishes or all the opposite. Maybe you can start an only fans after this. All right. Stricties turn. But you've not done this before. This is wild. Are we ready? Yeah. Yeah. So this company, Veritas? No, I think it was very signed or something. Veritas signed? I might have definitely began with a Vee, but I can't remember. And they do these little chip implants. Yeah. So when I work up with the holes, they're kind of around here in the corner. But now they've moved slightly. So one's there is a lesser. Wow. And the other one's there. The other one's big. Yeah. That's like very easy to spot. Yeah. That's the other one. Okay. I feel like it's one cup. It's one, actually. Yeah, it feels smaller. Wow. Weird. The company Gary is talking about here isn't called Veritas. It's called Veritas. And yes, it's done work in human microchipping. In fact, the company has produced a tiny RFID microchip about the size of a grain of rice that implants under the skin, transmits a unique ID when scanned and links to a database with personal or medical information. This chip is essentially a permanent tracking and identification tool to think something so small can connect you to everything that matters. When you're alive and all you love are on the line. The chip was introduced to the market in 2002, just a few years before Gary's experience in 2005. And according to Gary, the company's double injection method would cause something that looks exactly like the two bumps on his foot. I'll let you decide if that's a coincidence or not. If you look a little deeper, Veritas' corporate lineage runs through applied digital solutions. And prospectus filings show that the implantable microchips themselves were ultimately sourced from a subsidiary of Rathion. What we do saves lives. It protects peace and democracy throughout the world. Yes, that Rathion, one of the largest defense contractors in the world, deeply embedded in military systems, missile guidance, radar, and classified electronics. By the end of the 2000s, Veritas' chip themselves had secured the rights to technology that would allow the chips to detect viruses from inside the body, including strains like H1N1. The proposal described an implant that could determine whether a virus was present, what kind it was, and how serious the threat might be. At that point, the device would no longer just be identifying a person. It would be monitoring their unique physiology and biomedical data, completely dystopian to say the least. And even more dystopian, knowing that this tracking technology was likely used in retaliation on an ordinary citizen, like Gary McKinnon. So if that were surgically removed, what do you think you would find? I don't know, maybe two lumps of unanalysable material. I don't know. I didn't have so much good equipment back then, but now I have really good stuff for electromagnetic analysis, radio frequency analysis. I'd rather do that first before having it removed. You should do all that. Yeah. Just do it like tomorrow. Okay. I'll ask my local doctor. I'm just saying. I'm just saying, you know, you don't want the names to go missing like in the non-tressural officer. It's like you want it, you can do it now. Yeah. Figure it out. So we're in between your implant experience and then this possible space supply chain for anti-gravity materials. And I don't know where to go. My head's exploding. But yeah, I mean, is there anything just going back to the materials thing and the fleet to fleet transfer? It's just so fascinating. And it's fascinating that you're into towns and brown, too. It's like you have this like hermetic connection to this whole subject. Like you were meant to like see that or something like like anything else as far as takeaways from that document, you know, and interpreting it because it was James Fox came out with the program and he, you know, did this great piece on you. But I think a lot of people do take what you found and run with it. As far as just the people out there, like their interpretations of it when they see, you know, people discuss it. So this is your interpretation that it's some sort of supply chain in space or something? Well, we stumbled on that together. Together, I guess. So, yeah, I'd really connected it in that way that it wasn't a supply chain. It just came to my mind while we were speaking. And in light of what we both know now, it does make sense in terms of potential propulsion, the materials that might be necessary for that as a dielectric or so. It's pretty amazing. No, it makes total sense. There was a company called Made in Space that tried to do this for a while. There's now probably more promising company called Varta Space, which does this. It's like factories in space. At the end of the day, you can think of the value proposition as this is we can do special chemistry because we can essentially turn off gravity for the manufacturing engineer. And then often commercial companies are doing things that have already been done in classified settings. And so the stuff that was done in classified settings might have been this, you know, who knows? I mean, right now, I think it's like we have that are known like six people in space, like six astronauts, like on, you know, the ISS and on various space day, I think the, you know, Chinese space station, they have an astronaut or two. So the idea that how many officers were on this list? At least 40. 40-ish. So maybe they're in space or maybe they were also, and maybe they were in orbit or maybe they were just managing this non-terrestrial, you know, kind of atomic layer deposition process or, you know, materials manufacturing or something. Yeah, I've always thought that weren't aliens. I thought this is bound to be because it says non-terrestrial. Obviously, it's not extra terrestrial. So in other words, they're on a fleet. There's a space in space and on Earth. When we talk about a speculative secret space program, we should establish something clearly. There really was an uncontested, very real and now declassified secret space program. The US Air Force ran its own classified manned space effort alongside NASA's more public-facing ones. In the 1960s, while the world watched Saturn 5 rockets rise under the banner of Apollo, the Air Force was developing the manned orbiting laboratory. A military space station designed for reconnaissance of America's enemies and other orbital operations. 17 military astronauts were selected. A modified Gemini capsule was built. Titan three rockets were assigned. Launches into Polar orbit were planned from Vandenberg. And then, in June of 1969, exactly one month before the Apollo mission reached the moon for the first time, the manned orbiting laboratory was canceled. Advances in automated spy satellites made human observers redundant. Vietnam was draining resources. The Apollo program was imminent, so the classified space program was folded. But in defense culture, cancellation does not necessarily mean disappearance. Programs are restructured. Personnel are reassigned. Infrastructure is absorbed into deeper compartments. So what happened to the military astronaut program? Where did the classified orbital expertise go? And what was really going on with the classified space program? In 1993, former Lockheed Skunkworks director Ben Rich was speaking at a UCLA alumni event. Rich had overseen programs like the U2, the SR-71, and the F-117. Stealth aircraft that had lived in total secrecy before becoming public knowledge. At the end of his presentation, according to multiple attendees, Rich's final slide showed a black, disc-shaped craft flying into space. He closed with the famous words we now have the technology to take ET home. Was he just messing with the audience? Rich would end up dying just two years later. But towards the end of his life, he would privately say things that sounded very similar to this UCLA speech. Things about prodigious American space capabilities the public could barely dream of. Just before Ben Rich passed away, when I was talking to him, he told me at the end of a 45-minute conversation, he said, "Jim, we have things out in the desert and he wasn't referring to Gary at 51. We have things on the desert that is 50 years beyond where you can comfort him." I didn't understand the hell of a lie. He said, "If we see movies like Star Trek or Star Wars, we've been there, done that or decided it wasn't worth the effort." Ben Rich's son, Michael Rich, was the president and CEO of Rand Corporation for Decades. Rand was the Santa Monica-based federally funded research and development center, evaluating the prospects of Project Orion. Nuclear pulse propulsion craft that could theoretically carry very large crews, reach Mars or outer planets, and enable long-duration missions. Not coincidentally, Rand has also conducted comprehensive research on the non-engineering side of deep space travel, crew psychology and isolation, life support logistics, radiation hazards, resupply challenges, cost and national priorities. Rand Corporation also happened to be intensely interested in the gravity manipulating deep space propulsion work of Towns and Brown. His work going dark after he showed them a demo in 1967. President Ronald Reagan may have also inadvertently left a hint around secret American space capabilities and his diary entry from June 11, 1985. Lunch was with five top space scientists. It was fascinating. Space truly is the last frontier, and some of the developments there in astronomy, etc., are like science fiction, except they are real. I learned that our shuttle capacity is such we could orbit 300 people. You read that right. Not one shuttle crew, not a single mission. 300 people in Earth's orbit. In space. If you ask your favorite AI conversation agent, it'll tell you that we only have 10 or so people in space today. But we somehow had the capacity for 300 in the 80s? In 2020, Haim Eshed, former head of Israel's Defense Ministry Space Directorate, essentially the father of the Israeli space program, publicly claimed that American astronauts and alien representatives were operating on underground bases on Mars. These bizarre hints have stacked up over the decades, and maybe they are mirrored in one of the most famous fictional versions of a secret space force, Stargate. With visible cooperation from the US Air Force, the production of the show Stargate leaned on real-world military structures and culture. In fact, two sitting Air Force chiefs of staff, Michael E. Ryan and John P. Jumper, appeared on the show as themselves. These guys literally ran the Air Force and were showing up for cameos on this show. The lead actor on the show, Richard Dean Anderson, was later made in honorary Brigadier General in recognition of what the Air Force described as the program's positive portrayal of the service. The show's central premise? A classified off-world program run by the Air Force from a hidden command facility. Of course, the military connection might have just been due to some fans among the Air Force staff, or maybe it was just another tiny hint towards something really big going on in secret. Strange stories of a parallel space program are apocryphal, but they are more abundant than you might think. Like this stunning revelation shared with Ross Kool-Thart on Chris Ramsey's Area 52. There was a conversation I had with someone who I trust, who got very emotional and described a friend of his dying on the moon. Wow, and I, what do you make of that? I didn't know what to make of it. It's important to remember that the public didn't even know the NRO or National Reconnaissance Office existed for decades. The parallel classified Air Force astronaut program wasn't fully declassified until 2015. So is it so crazy to think we might have experimented with covert human spaceflight and exotic material supply chains since then? The benefits of building materials in space cannot be understated. Matter in space, because of its lower gravity environment, behaves in ways that are basically impossible on Earth. Without gravity, there's no convection, no settling, no buoyancy tearing materials apart as they form. Liquid stay perfectly mixed. Crystals grow with extraordinary purity. Optical fibers can be drawn with almost no internal flaws, potentially outperforming anything made on the ground. So it's also not that crazy to assume that we've experimented with this technology for extremely high-value meta-materials used at the highest levels of aerospace. Now where would such a program be headquartered? NASA's Johnson Space Center in Houston is not only where McKinnon found UFO-related images and spreadsheets. It's the NASA complex that specifically focuses on human spaceflight. The notorious line Houston, we have a problem, refers to mission control at Johnson Space Center in Houston. So if you were operating a manned spaceflight operation involving a material supply chain, that's exactly where you'd put it. I should be clear to you, like both of us aren't trying to fully pour cold water on UFO crashes. Like I think- No, no, it's cool. I think like I think Rouse Well happened. I think that- Yeah, I think that. Varginia happened in 1996. So it's always yes and in the UFO world. But I think intentional conflations also are systematically done by the intelligence world and it's important to be able to parse through all these things. Yeah. And of course, it's human nature to super-associate stuff with something you want to be true, so we can all fall down the hole as well. Yeah, no, of course. Well, I'm officially shocked. This is crazy. I mean, the Navy does do like the most exotic material stuff as well. Like there's just place naval surface warfare, a crane that does this. But tell Memorial Institute does a lot of exotic material stuff as well. And so yeah, I really do wonder if, you know, yeah, some of this is human made. And then if you say it's of alien provenance, then it's this like perfect, you know, kind of black box where like people can interpret it however they want. And- Yeah, it's a great show. It isn't a good umbrella. It is. And then the fact that in what's wild is that like you're now experimenting with materials, like you literally have materials in mind that make the by-field brown effect. Like you're interested in these anti-gravity experiments that involve some of these chemicals that and materials that you saw. Yeah, which is wild. Yeah. Well, the, yeah, it's, yes, it's 2007. This is the first read about by fo Brown. How do you read about it? How'd you come across it? I don't remember precisely, but- Because that's early. Yeah, it's undoubtedly research in UFO stuff. Anti-gravity stuff, specifically what important to that. But yeah, what attracted me was the fact that you can, you can do this and you know, home garage or shared or whatever, you know, you don't have to be a scientist. You have to be a scientist to understand the mechanism, which no one has yet does. But you don't have to be a scientist to do it on the bench and try some experiments. Because all it a capacitor, two conductive plates in between them sandwiched, a, an insulator, a dielectric, the store's electric charge. So, you know, what's complicated about that. If you read all the so-called research into the BB effect, none of it's exhaustive, none of it. It's all, oh, I did five kilowatt or DC. I did 10 kilowatt or AC. Obviously, but I'm a bit impudent when I'm very far. There are a few people that are far, army research laboratory. But no one's done a huge battery of tests with a multitude of dielectric, a multitude of different plates. The mass of the plates, not just the material, is it AC? Is it DC? Do you use a sine wave? Do you use a ramp wave or a triangle wave or a sawtooth wave or how long your pulse, what's your delay is? There's so many, well, there's quite a few parameters compared to a lot of stuff. But for a home experimenter, it's doable within a few hundred hours, I think. And I've probably done about 60 hours, all told. I've done thousands of hours of reading, but probably 60 hours experimentation. Wow, wow. So, you've done 60 hours of running the actual experiment. Oh, no, no, no, like research into the materials, yeah, I did try. I mean, I started off with lifters. Okay, yeah, trying to bake a four. That was interesting. Yeah. But it's bolsterwood and bake a four. And there was, there used to be a website called Blaise lamps. And there's some really well-eformed guys, they're X-era space, they knew all the like aerodynamic mass and stuff. And they said, just like army of a social biography, they said, there's no way that this battered metal foil sheet, which isn't even perfectly smooth, like an airplane. There's no way that aerodynamically, that can be pushed just by oil flow, just the way. Arale said it was like at least 10, 20% above what could be achieved by oil flow, which is exactly what Brown said. And so for the audience, Townsend Brown is this mid-century, very mysterious inventor who started with the Navy, then joined Martin Vega, which was pre-lockied Martin merger, the year that Skunk Works formed, and then kind of popped up in all sorts of three-letter agency contexts and was shoulder to shoulder with elite American military brass people like Curtis Lemay, you know, it's just this very mysterious figure who consistently claimed that he would get these positive results in these anti-gravity experiments, or what he called electro-gravity. There's even a video of him popping champagne from the Bonson Lab at the Institute of Field Physics in North Carolina, which we know is the CIA outpost studying anti-gravity, and literally convening all the best theoretical physicists on the question of gravity in 1957. And it was all sponsored by Wright Airfield, which is where all the UFO rumors come from. They were literally paying for this, you know, for a lot of this research. - Nussels. - Yeah, weird connections. And so if you take what he claimed about his own experiments at face value, you'd have this crazy update against, you know, SpaceX and like chemical combustion, it would be this like total paradigm shifting thing. It's not a small deal. It's a really big deal. And the thing about Brown is we almost know, we know for a fact that he was one of the number one radar guys in the Navy, there's an FBI file from 1942 or three that basically says he knows more about radar than anybody in the Navy. And that's number one. Number two, electro hydrodynamics, which is not electro-gravity. It's the manipulation of airflow with electric fields, which is how that the tin foil, you know, balsa wood, you know, DIY, foilers work and fly. But it's also what made it into the B2 stealth bomber. And I'm pretty, I kind of have the receipts on that too. So like, that's, so you have these two things where he's like the best, like EHD, you know, electro hydrodynamics and radar. And then he's claiming that he could also merge electromagnetism and gravity, which is the holy grail of physics. - Fly through me. - And so it's like, okay, so like he's right on two out of the three things, but he's a total quack on the third thing. And there's so much smoke around it. And then now you have the lead electrostatic scientist at NASA who could, he's the global authority on being able to tell you that this experiment is only attributable to conventional electrostatics. And he's saying that no, this is, it works, it works in a vacuum. So you can't do it with ionized air physics in its, in its current form cannot explain this. And his own experiments, Charles Bueller who you mentioned, are derivative of towns and browns work. And so like, I think there is so much smoke. There's a Japanese experiment that you mentioned, the Moussa paper, and they say that they get, you know, a successful result. In that case, I think they submerge the whole thing in, in transmission oil, which also you can't ionize transmission oil. Like, you know, that's not going to work. So yeah, are they coordinating with these people in the US for like, you know, they like some deep state thing in Japan? Like, I don't think so, you know, it's like this global thing. So yeah, this is wild. So I went out, we were setting this up. And, you know, I was talking to you on the phone and you were like, yeah, I'm super into towns and brown. I was like, what the, this is going to be the best interview ever. Well, yeah, to make somebody enjoy your, I call it your bifilbounds special. I don't know if that's what you I'll take it. Yeah, it's called the bifilbounds special. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. Well, well, kudos to you for being in the towns in brown 2007 because the Manu Master Gravity by Paul Schatzgen was this great biography. That only came out in like, I think, around the pandemic. And he created, he had this other version of it that wasn't really edited super neatly or concisely. I think that might have come out in like 2009 or something and he kind of stepped away from the project. But 2007, like you're talking about towns and brown being on the dark corners of the web, like the like, you gotta like, you know, get the. That's why I used to live. It sounds like it. Yeah, man. Um, was it Paul LeVylet? Who first introduced the idea of the b2 using that? Yeah. So, cheers where I think Paul LeVylet got wrong because he wrote this great history of anti-gravity. And he talks about microwave beam propulsion alongside town's browns by Phil Brown effect and, you know, he's a really brilliant guy. He had his own theory called sub quantum kinetics. Oh, yeah, his whole, yeah, which was fascinating. And it seems like just a brilliant brilliant. I would have loved to have interviewed him. He died a few years ago. Sadly, he's dead. Yeah, it sucks. Yeah. No, wait, I was an email contact with him. I fell up until two years ago, but I've actually got that wrong. And we were gonna have a, I was gonna start a podcast. Oh, and he was gonna be my first interview. Oh, dude, that would have been the best thing. Yeah, hip problems. He was on the internet. He had a hip surgery or something. So I'm a, okay. Yeah, yeah. No, it's a real bummer. And, but I think where he, and it's an amazing book and everybody should read it. But I do think he says that the B2 had like an anti-gravity drive. And I don't think that's correct. I think, I thought he just said the leading edge. It was like a capacitor. Yeah. So the leading edge was one plate and the trailing edge was another plate. And yeah. So, and I think he's, I think he's right about that. But I think that just manipulates the airflow. Like that just makes the airflow. Yeah, it's like, reduce the, you know, lift to drag ratio. Yeah, it wasn't a full inquiry. Increase the lift to drag ratio. Sorry. Yeah. It might just let me false to. Yeah. Makes it more aerodynamic and faster. I mean, maybe there's some real electric, a bit of thing happening. But there's no, there'd be no way to like fully say because it's happening not in a vacuum. So like maybe there is something, you know, actually happening there that is, you know, and it's super, yeah, it's top secret. But I also don't know why they would necessarily declassify the B2 if it was using electric, a bit of a per se. I will say there is a guy named William Gunston who is the preeminent aerospace journalist in the UK or was. And you know, it's part of like the Royal Air Society and has all these awards and stuff. And for, I think it was like air international magazine. He did like a history of, you know, arrow and gen tech since World War II. And then he gets to towns in Brown and he goes with towns in Brown like, you know, I will refrain from talking about, you know, leading edges charged to millions of volts positive followed by trailing edges, charged to millions of volts negative because I don't want to end up in the Tower of London. And then he caveats it a little bit more. So like, I don't know if that cave yachting is genuine, you know, unsureness of what he's saying in the Tower of London. Wait for the audience was a place of torture. Was a place of torture. Does he mean professionally? Oh, like as a whole like giving away see or if he's literally saying these are state secrets. Yeah. And then I don't know if the caveats are like, I don't want, you know, I really don't want to be implicated for having said this. So I'm going to sprinkle in some doubt or whatever. I don't know. Yeah. But it's interesting. Yeah. But um, so, so you, you are, do you want to pull off one of these experiments or oh hell yeah. I'm glad to get by April the latest. I've been, um, distracted for a while and had to do other things. I'm only doing these experiments in a 10 by 10 foot shed. And they're not expensive, but they consume a lot of time. Yeah. And I have, I'm basically doing industrial processes in a garden shed. So it's a bit, I've got, but the first thing I've bought because you have to eat this stuff to a thousand degrees. The calcium copper titulate to a thousand degrees and then comfort, I had to buy a 10 ton hydraulic press, I bought a gas furnace. And then because of the geometry and stuff that there wasn't unusable. So then I bought an electric furnace, which is my sporer and you know, it's easy to manipulate this tiny disk to so it's only 40 millimeters across and starting off very small. So I've got to make that into what they call a green body, make that solid. I bought really high quality silver paste as the plates. But then after that, you have to think of when you've got these two plates at 30 kilavolks or more, you get arcing currents, you get sparks basically. So I have to find a way to stop that. And my first thought was to have very small disks on top of the 40 millimeter diameter calcium copper titulate CCTO. But there's other ways to do as well. So I've got to figure out a path from then completely because I really want to see it float. I want to stand there in my shed to the on switch on and see this thing rise. That would be amazing. If you made something levitate, you would kind of, the haters would have nothing to say. Yeah. What do you say? That's right. You say it's eye and eye. It's not real these days. It could be AI. Yeah, sure. That's a good point. Would you do this in a vacuum chamber? Yeah, eventually I do have one vacuum chamber last for my resident and it only goes down to like minus 99 MPa or something. But I mean, Gravitech has done it in a vacuum chamber. They used to contrive another Jewish Gravitech. Gravitech is under a different name now, but they've got a percentage of the videos. What's his name? No Henry Henry something. I've had a few emails with him as well. Yeah, they've done it in a vacuum. A proper vacuum like, you know, minus hundreds of tall. Shout out to Gravitech. I want to check that out. I've never heard of that. He's got a different company now, but I've got his email. I'll send you. Oh, please. Yeah, get him on, man. He'd be glad to. I'd love to. And he now does stuff for satellites, I think like private satellites. Whoa. Not using this. I don't even know enough to come in, but yeah, he's done it in a vacuum. Interesting. It is less than he pursuant like, you know, more substantively after that. Sounds like you just want straight to satellite. I think, yeah, I think he wants to be commercial, make money, do well for himself. And probably maybe that's as far as he wants it to go. It works in a vacuum. But also you have like a Jean-Louis Norden, a French kind of YouTube scientist, I don't know his credentials for real. He's done it in vacuum tubes. He's isolated the electrode in James. But I don't know what the pressure was. This is, I mean, yeah, so you're right. There is this whole global community of DIY independent creators, aerospace professionals who in their private life just want to pursue this or UFO nuts or whatever outside of, you know, whatever they're doing. And most of them say that there's a there there. There are very few people that say there aren't a there there. The ones that do, I believe there's, you know, an air for the guy, this is the last name is Tally. And he's an Air Force guy. And I think he consistently uses this very low voltage and tries to explain it away. And I even, I spoke to this one Navy scientist and he was like Tally's just a bad actor. Like he's like brought on the scene. Like he's, he's like this guy in UFO world named Sean Kirkpatrick who's the former air director. He's like brought on to like, you know, dismiss. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so. We know Tim Ventura or propulsion. Yeah, do you guys get that guy on that did had similar effects with very low voltage like 5kV 5kV. I think it was Bueller now or because Bueller thinks it was. Yeah, so this is the NASA electrostaticly because there was a previous Bueller in my old documentation for like pre 2000s. Whoa. Unless that was his dad or maybe it was because he was a like mid 50s now. Maybe it was him. We were in your old documentation. Yeah, yeah, I've got documents with Bueller and I didn't think it was him, but maybe it is. Well, we didn't do that dock spot. We said we do a dock spot. Oh, yeah. Oh, shit. Yeah, I'd love to. Yeah. Do you have like a lot of compiled information about this sort of stuff? Oh, sweet. Cool. Yeah. Interesting. And in terms of free energy, there's one thing I found that I found, but I found the guy that discovered it. So, lensi's law stops the motor rotating because of, you know, the counter to magnetic force. If you look at the formula for that, the strong element of that is the inductance of the coil. And this guy found that if you increase the inductance, his name is Thane Heines. If you increase the inductance of the coil, then the rise time of the opposing magnetic field that slows the turning of the motor down when you're applying power to a load is delayed, just like delay in timing and a car engine. And he found that not only could it delay enough to stop the counter, the CEMF counter electrical motor force dragging, creating electromagnetic drag. When it's passed a certain point phase angle, it assisted the rotation. Yeah, yeah. So your standard electric generator is a disc with magnets and underneath the coils. And he found that when, so the magnet is spinning around, it gets to what they call TDC, top dead center above the coil with his method because it delays that opposing, because when the magnet, let's say it's a North Pole facing down and it cuts into the coil, that creates a South Pole and the coil that opposes the incoming movement of the magnet. And then when the magnet's moving out of the coil, it creates a North Pole, a North Pole, which accelerates it out. And he found that when you do this stupidly simple, but incredibly effective time delay, the CEMF rises in such a way it's late on the income. So the magnet gets pulled in and it's early on the outgoing, so the magnet gets pushed out, so it accelerates the incoming and the outgoing. And he took it to such an extent that eventually there's no opposition at all and you could actually reverse, you're not reversing lenses law because that's an inaccurate physics statement, but you're reversing the effect. In effect of LARL. Yeah. And I did a small experiment, I'll send you the video. I did the most simple magnetic emoji can. I'd, um, a cylinder shaped magnet, which is diametrically magnetized. It's not north on top, south on the bottom. Each curved half is a North and South Pole. I had that vertical shaft rotating and I show it with a normal generator coil, which when you attach it to a load, the power input needed increases to support the load. And the rotation slows down. Well, when I put his coil on, which has higher inductance, when you tell that coil to power load, the rotation speed increases and the input current goes down. The complete opposite of motor theory, motor generated theory. Whoa. That's the one and only thing I've seen have been able to replicate the works in terms of free energy. And this guy is now, he's got contracts for Siemens, Phillips with him. He's talking to China. It's about to blow up. Whoa. And I'll be following him since about 2007 to your overunity.com. The first forum. I saw him. What's his name? Thane Hines. Where's he based? He's Canadian physicist. Hmm. Yeah. Dude, you're deep down the rabbit hole of alternative propulsion and energy. You've got to interview this guy. I would love to. He's like your general kind of crazy, mad genius. He's not so good at social interaction. Yeah. But he's got it, man. It's typical of somebody who makes like real breakthroughs like that. Yeah. For them to be not always like. I think he's got a lot in his mind. I think he's got a lot in his mind as well. Fascinating. What do you think this chip in your foot? Does it ever burn or buzz? Sometimes it glows. So there's nothing. Basically, you've got no incremental information on it outside of just a couple of lumps that have moved over time towards the inside of the arch of the strange. Have you ever had a sort of like any sort of men and black experience or experience with you know, strange men and suits showing up at your place or? No, but my lawyer had to office in her car robbed. Really? Which is obviously not men and black has more earthly powers. No, nothing men and black did did okay. So when you hacked in to all of these sensitive American military sites, how did you get caught and what happened next? Oh, man. Yeah. I got lazy, got egotistical for arching anywhere I like. Look at anything. And I started making direct connections instead of jumping through various IP addresses. So I was making direct connections to the target. And I was using like free AOLs sewn up CDs. So I wasn't being at all like a professional hacker. I was just, yeah, I thought I could just do it. I thought, oh, these guys don't even know, don't even have passwords. They wouldn't even know I've been here. But yeah, eventually, obviously when that guy right-clicked the land icon and disconnected me, that was Nazar. And they reported to BT British Telecom, which is my internet server provider at the time and said, who's this IP at this time? And they said it was a, in fact, they didn't have my name at first. I don't know if my internet account was my girlfriend's name or if we're using our aunts internet or something. But the horrible thing was when they came, when the national high-tech crime, they came to a recipe. The warrant was for the whole house. And they came early in the morning, arrested me, my girlfriend, my girlfriend's aunts daughter, who was only like 12 or something at the time. So it was quite a horrible experience. She's a steady family and all my fault. And why they arrested 12-year-old? What just a question? Not arrest on this. Detained. Not to jail. Yeah. That's still, it must have been traumatic for her. Yeah. Because they didn't know who the person was. They knew someone had that address. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, and unfortunately, my ex-girlfriend's cousin, he was quite antithoriatarian and quite alternative. I think they thought it was him. Oh, it must be him. He's got purple hair. Yeah. He must be the guy. Oh, so yeah. I'm laughing now, but it's horrible. It's affected so many other people. You know, Mike's cheaper curiosity. But James mentioned something about guys looking over you at your bed or something like, like, like at night or something. Oh, no, that's probably when I was arrested because I was arrested in my sleep. Wait, so, so, who were you arrested in your sleep? Yeah, the National Hortic Crime Unit. I'd been a whole night playing Galactic Civilizations for some big space game and, um, and probably smoking still as well. I've gone to bed late, so I was asleep eight in the morning. My girlfriend was getting ready to go to work, knocked, knocked, knocked, she's an addressing girl. They're patting it down and pushing her into a room. They're coming to my room. I'm in bed. I've got it. I've got it. Go ahead, McKenna. I'm Jeff Dolson from the National Hortic Crime Unit. You're under arrest for Confucian misuse act. It's a little serious, yeah. And then from, from that point onwards, the UK was like, okay, with more of kind of a slap on the wrist sort of thing. And then it was the US that was like, no, we need to extradate him now. And then what you mentioned, they changed the extradition laws to make it this sort of blanket thing that applied to you. Yeah, definitely. So, when I was first arrested, um, the National Hortic Crime Unit, who were the arrested bodies, sent me, you'll do six months inside, maybe community service, maybe low jail time, because under UK law, all I did was unauthorized access. You know, I didn't break kind of thing, all stealing and thing or make money or anything like that. And, um, but then these officers went to America, to Owen I, and I must say, Office of Naval Intelligence, because there's another Owen I, there's an intelligence sister, I think, investigation or something, but that I know. And, um, when they came back, they had a very heavy tone, a completely different tone about them. They were very impressed by me with the top brass in Washington. And, um, yeah, oh, this guy caused $5,000 of damage on every PC he was on, you know, which is just stupid. How do you damage the hardware if you just do this software hack that we're calling a hack, but you're using like off the shelf stuff. Yeah, it's like PC anywhere. Yeah. But I think what they call damage is the time it took them to take them offline. So the machines are unusable for a while, investigate them. So, you know, you know what, it feels like kind of white hack hacking to me, because you didn't actually end up using any of the files in a way to hurt the US or their, like, again, you can say what you will about Snowden or the Sandra, any of these guys, like, there's nothing you did to like knock the US down a leg as far as their tactical ability to like, you know, do things. So it's almost like a white hat hack because the costs they incurred to take the stuff down and reset them, they would have needed to do anyways. That would have been what if like a malicious person had like, you know, kind of traded all these servers. That's what I'm saying. So they're actually extremely lucky. They need to do it. $5,000. Why are you buying a PC scroll? No, they should, I mean, you literally white hat hackers get paid. So like, I think I think they should pay you. All right. I'm just pleased to have the email. You know, I'm serious. It's like, you literally, you didn't do anything showing malintent. Once you got the info, they got the info back. And then they reset, ideally, their computer networking and architecture in a way that, you know, these sort of fishing attacks couldn't be done. These are basic things that you're using. Yeah. So I just, like, I think it's like insecure. It almost sounds like somebody in, in, in like, middling bureaucracy who's trying to cover their ass. Like, this took us all this, well, you should have done it before. Yeah. What do you mean? You're not doing your job. Yeah. Yeah. If it was some super sophisticated quantum error correction that you had figured out in 2000, that would be one thing. That would be like, okay. And then you used it in this sort of detrimental way to American national security. Crypto-data-sale. Yeah. But otherwise, I mean, I don't know, man. That feels like a kind of great. Okay. So then what happens to the extradition laws? Oh, man. So yeah, the original extradition law, which I think was 1989, was a good basic law. We accuse this British citizen of having committed a crime in or against America. We have this evidence and it's a crime over here and it's a crime over there. So we should have him in America to stand trial. To defy, to do reasonable. But then, I mean, this is the way of thing. In law, computer crimes are weird. It's a great area because it's not physical. Where's your bum at the seat? What do you commit to crime? Lots of questions that are legally intransigent. How do you place this? So what happened was I was arrested in 2002 and in March. And then I was re-questioned by the the LHTCU went to visit the DOJ in August. Then they came back. Then they re-interviewed me in November 2002. And that's when their tone had changed. Very serious. You're accused of harming a British system that the LHTCU could be using prison. And that's when things really got serious. I thought, my God, this is just blown out of all proportion. But we were protected by the extradition law because they had to be evidence of malintent, etc. And what I did, my police interview, I completely admitted to why it's done because it was all in the hard drive. I said, yeah, it's all in the hard drive. I went there and I got this document to another place, got other documents. So I was open about it. I figured, you know, six months, like the turbine, I'll be fine. And they said community service. So I can do both. I'll be fine. Although I wouldn't have lied six months in prison. But when it came to November and then the threatened extradition, then on paper it was 70 years. And jail 70 years. It was like seven counts, 10 years become. And I just went crazy. I thought, this is absolutely mad. What am I going to do? And there was a lot of like the UFO community in America wanted me to stand for an America. It was like a martyr. Yes, it would be great. He'll come over. He'll open all the secrets and he'll make it out. But what America actually said, the DOJ said, that I'd be tried under military order number one, which is Guantanamo status, totally secret, no media, no media cover, no family visits, you know, me in a wrong suit with my red hair. Joking. Sorry. But yes, it went really scary, like really scary. Like over the top, like, well, you know, Kafka, Kafka ask. Yeah. Many people said, damn, you must have been, you must have felt horrible. You must have been like the, you know, world's out to get me or the most powerful nation in the world, you know, is out to get me. Yeah. And that must be a scary feeling. Yeah. We're starting late 2002. By 2008, because we lost so many cool cases and hearings, I've given up all hope and I thought, there's no way I'm going to give my fucking life to a foreign jail. One of the three chemicals in the lethal injection. And I thought, if I get that decision, I'm just going to, we're not inject it. I looked up the amount, how many grams per kilogram of body weight, and I was just going to swallow it and have our attack and die. Since I came into office, the sole issue on which I have been required to make a decision is where the Mr McKinnon's extradition to the United States would reach his human rights. After careful consideration of all of the relevant material, I have concluded that Mr McKinnon's extradition would give rise to such a high risk of him ending his life. The decision to extradite would be incompatible with Mr McKinnon's human rights. I have therefore withdrawn the extradition order against Mr McKinnon. That was incredible. To reason, mate. So yeah, it's heavy. That's heavy, man. That's really intense. And I'm sorry, it got to that place because it's ridiculous. If you look at the fact pattern, it's just insane. Again, I'm saying that some of these other whistleblower cases, there are nuances to them. You know, I'm saying, yours, I think it's an absolute witch. That's crazy. Yeah, I agree. It's just crazy. Yeah, I don't even know what to say. I'm so sorry. That's just awful. I'm sorry on behalf of my country. Well, you're not the government, Jesse. That's true. I don't have to forgive you. Okay. Well, yeah, it's just not a good representation. But, yeah. Well, America's a great country. The people are great. There's been some great bad governance since World War II in my humble opinion. Yeah. No, I'm on this side of the pond as well. The bridge as well. Sure. Yeah. No, and it's crazy that you were, I mean, Gordon Brown, David Cameron, Theresa May, all of these UK Prime Ministers were thinking about you. You were this really important case because the ex you said that the extradition law was changed to literally like right after you did what you did. Yeah. This is one thing I didn't mention. We saw a draft of the new extradition treaty through our lawyers and it was written, a British extradition treaty with America was written in American English, which is kind of a clue as they call them the shots. And, you know, American spelling in an English legal document. And also a lot of the phrases were almost verbatim taken from some of my charges. So I think it's not the same thing, especially about me, but it was what I did. At that time, the American DOD systems were getting like 250,000 attacks, hackier attacks. If you read the general accounting office documents at the time and still to this day. So I think they needed to do something and then nearly to increase the punishment and they needed a poster boy. So timing is everything, isn't it? Yeah, because there had been big hackers before you, right? Like what's the name of the guy who hacked into the DOE Department of Energy and like atomic lab? Matthew Bevin. Yeah. This was like an actual hack on really sensitive stuff by kind of a more professional hacker. Is that safe to say or also kind of like a vigilante? Yeah, I think he was more skilled than I was. He didn't just do black pass with hack. He found weaknesses in protocols. He was more advanced. And yeah, he was early. He was in the 90s. And then what happened to him? He was basically sloping the rest. It did go through some shit. Don't get me wrong. Matthew, if you're listening. But yeah, he didn't face a long term. There are a few of these cases before you where I think in a certain case it was like a hundred thousand computers ended up with malware. You know, who was it? Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, if you want to know who's the most successful hacker, it's not a person that's virus. Yeah. The love, love, what's it? I can't remember the name. But I'm talking about specifically, there's precedent for UK based hackers hacking into US systems, which neither of us are suggesting anyone do. It's not a you don't hack into national security stuff. This is this is a lesson. But in those cases, they did worse stuff than you. Yeah. And they just got slaps on the wrist. And then you're this like UFO interested. You know, you want to know if there's like free energy or whatever, like for your for your own notification. Yeah. Like not because you want to do some like, you know, terrorist thing or like undermine, you know, American supremacy in any way or whatever. And like they just come after you. Yeah. And so they changed the issue. Yeah. What's what's important to them? Is it someone like cleverly stealing money in a cyber forward way, which a lot of people have done? Or is it some, is it UFO truth? Is that? Yeah. Well, no, it might show that that actually, you know, hit a trigger point like the the the like cigar shaped tic tac object, you know, flying in deep space. You know, that might be this really sensitive thing that they just really don't want to talk about. And then the nonchart the space supply chain thing. I could see that, you know, they don't want to talk about that either. But as a counterpoint to that, the information was already out. Don't have has the issue was out. So it's kind of if it's already out, why go so heavy on this guy. As a counterpoint to that, like there's proof that you got into these sites. Donna here, it's always going to be this kind of like single sample size. And if one story told, and you can always be like, that person was crazy. Yeah, good. But like when your case, like they have like a, you know, there's a live arrest warrant out on you now, right? I want to be a pull reckless. You're on the inter pole reg list. That's crazy. I don't even think I need that. Hopefully I'm good. But yeah, like, like, you know, with with I think in your case, there's no arguing with the fact that you got into these sensitive sites. So the fact that you're saying, you saw a tick-tack, you know, in deep space, but above earth. And then you saw these nontrustrial, maybe 40 some odd officers like, you know, that's like pretty, that's like a little deeper, you know. Yeah. Yeah. But like to the point that like you shouldn't be blamed, it's like you didn't sign something. You didn't like sign up to like, you didn't work like working at one of these places. You were like, I mean, you're I've heard of think how girlfriend's I could manage that if I was intel. I was like, how many managed this guy? And then I think they were probably quite happy when I got diagnosed with Asperger's in 2008. Mm hmm. What's his material? It's fun, then. Right. Right. Right. Right. Like a put away. I've put them in the mentally old drawer. Mm hmm. Do you ever think like the chip is somehow either monitoring you, you a or b, it's like feeding you ideas or anything? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You start the lichen right now. Yeah. Yeah. Do you ever think it has some sort of, you know, no? No, my mind feels the same as always has. Okay. But I do want to do some further scanning with by more modern, not you should. Yeah. Yeah. No. It's so interesting. I always talked to what was his name, the guy that used to scan implants. He's dead now. Roger Lear. Roger Lear. Yeah. I've received a round and could come to the UK. Yeah. He'd be the perfect guy. Yeah. I might know if somebody else could help you out. Yeah. So later. Yeah. Exactly. Look, look. Yeah. Let's document all of this. But my finger is on the power button. And volume up and volume down at the same time. And nothing. Nothing. Absolutely. It's insane. And with Gary McKinnon, who has a live or a famous extent. I didn't do it. This was the, you know, everything I'd hoped it would be this conversation. It's so fun. And I really hope you pull off this bifilm brown effect. I think it would be this beautiful, kind of, I don't know, vindication. You know, I'm not saying what you did was fine, but I think you were completely persecuted in this horrible way. And I love the fact that by the way, the UK rallied behind you and you ended up, you know, singing with David Gilmore, you know, definitely, singing the pink Floyd, you know, and like, you have all these people. You're like, kind of this people's champion. Cosby still is a nashman. One of my favorite hippie bands when I was young. Wait, what did, what crossbees saw in Nash? Yeah. They were like rallying behind you as well. Yeah, they did. They just, like mentioned me in one song at one of their gigs, but you know, thousands of people. I didn't know that. Yeah. So cool. You've seen all these bands I'd love when I was little. I was like, God, it was crazy. Cause you really depressed, but you're seeing all your musical heroes. Yeah. Vouching for you. But you're also, didn't you, you sang with David Gilmore? Yeah. And Chrissy Hines and Bob Gildov. But I didn't actually only sang in the same studio at the same time with Chrissy Hines. I didn't get to meet David Gilmore or Bob Gildov. Okay. Well, wild. Thank you to Reese May for making the right decision and, you know, letting you go. And I think the US should drop their rest warrant. And I think that's it. That could go in holiday. Yeah. Yeah. So you can go and, you know, go in a nice vacation. And, yeah, hopefully next time I see you, it's in the States. And yeah, not be fantastic. It'd be great. Thanks for great interview. Absolutely. Gary. No, it was an honor. It was a lot of fun. And yeah, hopefully, you know, I think we made a little bit progress here too. And just piecing some things together. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Logistics supply chain. Exactly. Oh, sweet. All right. Alchemist, did you enjoy that? If you want the full picture, head over to the American Alchemy magazine. We just launched on Substack. 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