The Man Sitting On More UFO Evidence Than Anyone Alive

it's not only your full library it's about the unknown so how many countries do you have files from oh I don't know I have no also to that but we have Japanese files for assistant Russian files and they went out on the field and brought back debris what from this crashed object they were standing on the other edge of this carriage and they had very tight helmets small small heads and some gloves she was eight meters from them. Meet Kloss von journalist author in one of the world's most impressive UFO researchers he's a real-life Swedish fox molder and that's because he's basically in possession of the modern X files I'm not kidding since the early 1970s von has not only reported on the phenomena for Sweden's largest newspaper but he spent decades building organizing and preserving what is widely recognized as the world's largest UFO archive the archives of the unexplained this 16-room building houses detailed witness reports photographs audio recordings radar data video and a original first-generation documents that no longer exist anywhere else time travel there's a time travel section what is this brown and birch towns and brown yeah I went to Eureka California I met with this guy in his garage we packed it all together and sent it back to Sweden behind you here is the oldest UFO group in the world borderland science research association what there's something very interesting about them they were new more than intelligence in case certain cases in the 40s in this episode we go over a half century of overlooked evidence radar tracked objects executing impossible right angle turns military helicopters nearly colliding with wingless craft sonar and radar returns and of course covert European UFO crash retrieval operations we discussed the Swedish ghost rocket craze of the 1940s a swarm of at least 1400 documented rocket and cigar shaped UFOs descending on Norway and Sweden never landing on the ground always plunging into water a swarm that even caused the Swedish government to form a specialized military unit an American president Eisenhower to send his top general James Doolittle to investigate Klaus von isn't just an archivist he's a field investigator in his own right interviewing experiencers and witnesses at the very center of UFO history he spent a lot of time with Betty Hill of the famous Barney and Betty Hill 1961 abduction case in New Hampshire everybody knows about this canonical abduction story but Klaus dug a little deeper and found out that Betty outside of her abduction witnessed a UFO crash near her home she even recovered the debris which she went on to bury in her backyard where it still might be to this day I usually say that we are standing at the very top of a mountain on knowledge today yes but the mountain is resting on this mountain that is even bigger yes that is moving into the future this episode is one of the hardest core summaries of evidence for UFOs I've ever heard when you speak to other people have you seen anything unnatural yes yes but I don't want to talk about it I brought my buddy a Mark and deal from yes theory to the archives and we had a blast what is your top UFO photo without further ado please enjoy this week's Swedish alchemist Klaus Svon Klaus we're back thank you for being here again around thank you for having us rather we're at the beautiful archives of the unexplained this is just one of 16 rooms and it's packed to the brim full of documents yeah and so yeah it's just so exciting it's like a being a kid in a candy store and you've compiled all this we start in 1973 you start in 1973 we've been around for a while that's amazing so you've been literally compiling things since 1973 yeah that's right that's incredible I want to start with something you have in your hand oh yeah what is that this one it's a metallic piece of metallic it's from Sweden an island called Värde north east of Stockholm okay in 1957 two carpenters were driving their car in the middle of the night really because they were going to do some work on Monday this was Sunday and suddenly they saw this object coming from east moving in front of the car making a new turn and suddenly hanging in front of the car which was totally died so the car stopped and those two guys were sitting in the car and looking at the object and suddenly it went away exactly the same way as it came so they went out of the car and took a look at this on this road they found this object there and it was hot so they couldn't really hold it in their hands it was so hot so it was really burning them and the car started and then drove away after many years this was analyzed and I also analyzed it and it's tungsten all from carbide this is very earthly this have every impurity that it was in tungsten in 1957 but tungsten is a very good leader of heat so this should have been cold in the middle of the night so the object affected it so it was so hot so it corroborates the story of the two carpenters so it's evidence and the car can have made this tungsten hot you think it was definitely it was in front of the car it was and it's impossible really wow it must have been quite the heat to do that that's amazing so that's interesting that's how I can I can I hold it absolutely it does feel oddly you know very very smooth but I'm sure that there's also a natural element of tungsten it is it is and you have another objective side you let that abroad with me yeah this is actually from outer space we know this is not earthly but it's it is prosaic this and what is this this is a piece of an asteroid that crashed in Arizona 50,000 years ago okay you can still see the crater it's a big museum at the rim of the crater it's a one kilometer so it's a huge crater you can see it full space it's very very heavy it's 99% iron and a little nickel and some other elements wow so you can tell if something like this from the beginning it was huge of course yeah like a land on bus or something like that if that had hit a city of course there were the cities in 50,000 years ago but today the city would be gone how much can I feel it how much of UFO crashes do you think are this is amazing it's so heavy how much of UFO crashes do you feel our physical events nuts and bolts material gets left behind you can have a crash retrieval team going looking for it and finding a thing and trying to reverse engineer it do you think a high percentage of them are I mean you know we looked for one in Norway yeah we did but this is I mean it landed and it's sank yes and in 1946 as we talked about the ghost rockets the military were looking for them in several different lakes around Sweden all they found were indentations at the bottom not the single debris not anything not anything like that or like the weather piece so it is really strange I know that some of those UFOs as we're talking about could just vanish without the trace do you know of any because this is an interesting question I think the audience often wonders you know in the US they're all these rumors of reverse engineering and crash retrievals of UFOs you know ra as well as like the you know kind of archetypal example of 1947 July but the crashes often seem to occur around nuclear sites possibly because there is this sort of nuclear connection do you know of any crash retrievals or even reported crash retrievals where vigilante citizen who's interested in UFOs okay goes and citizens really finds actual material themselves not here in Scandinavia and the thing is I don't really understand why should those objects crash that often they're traveling presumably through space and they are crashing, not all the time, but quite often. I mean the UFO enigma to me is much more complex and I'm not sure really that we are dealing with like this physical objects all the time. We are from time to time, I talked to Swedish radar observers that have told me about objects that travelling huge speeds over Sweden and of course they are physical but some are not. So where in between could we distinguish this is one of our UFO hardware, this is something else. I'm not sure. Do you believe there are government crash retrieval and reverse engineering programs? I'm not here in Sweden that I'm sure about but in 1946 we had, they were out in government, sent the military out to several different lakes and tried to find those crashed objects. You showed us photos. Yeah. But do you think in the US there's an official program around these things? I'm not sure. I mean I have my expertise here in Sweden really. Of course the military should be interested to find hardware if there is any kind of strange object. Yeah. You'd have to dedicate resources to even China. Yeah. Absolutely. It could be Chinese. It could be Russian. It could be something completely different. I think your authorities would be interested. You know people know of Hesselnen in Norway as a UFO hotspot. What in your mind are maybe the top five UFO hotspots in Europe? I mean Hesselnen is interesting from many aspects first. In the 1980s, we and you from Norway had this huge expedition there and we could take pictures of them. We can also see them on radar once. But the thing is nowadays in Hesselnen when you see something on a scientific instrument, the light, the thing is coming up on the ground, going upwards. And never the other way. We have this Sweden Dalana which is in the middle of Sweden where we have had several waves with UFO observations. We have a place on the island of Gotland called Martebo where people go to a certain stretch of a road watching for lights coming wandering on this road. But we also know we have been there, we have traveled around and drove our own cars and they shout, "Oh, that is the object, but it was our car." So there's really no place you can go here in Scandinavia to be sure to see something except Hesselnen if you stay long enough. So that's really the UFO hotspot? Yeah, yeah it is. And it's been that for many years and the thing is about Hesselnen. Although most of the things you see are lights in the sky, if you talk to the people there, they can tell you ordinary UFO stories as well with crafts and sometimes even beings. Yeah, we were there and it was very easy to tell that an extremely high percentage of people that live there had experienced things like upwards of 80, 85, 90 percent of people. And that was all of the report and everybody had family members and they had experienced things. It was ubiquitous pretty much. Several people in Norway they have experienced stuff like that, seeing things but they don't dare to tell it because they are afraid to be chastised. Yeah, yeah. So that's why I know when you speak to other people, have you seen anything unnatural? Yes, yes. I don't want to talk about it. You could almost flip the percentages in any other place where if you were to pull people, they would say, you know, maybe 10, 15 percent would be open about, you know, it would be, it's the opposite. And Hesselnen, you're the pariah if you haven't seen any of us or something. I mean, we knocked doors and talked to 1,600 Swedes and 10 percent of them had seen something. That's remarkable. It was only one of them who didn't want to talk with us, the other ones were very open. Okay. And the interesting thing is that we have 22,000 case files from Sweden here a day or a few. Yeah. And presumably 1 million Swedes, 10 percent over 11 million. Wow. I've seen something. Wow. And last night I talked with a lady who wrote me a letter and she, for the first time, told anyone outside her family about something happened in 1971, in October, 1971, and she was bicycling in a small city in the middle of Sweden. It was daylight and the train was coming and this is so strange, you know, it's just typically strange for me. Back in the day, I used to chug coffee like I was prepping for a quantum jump, but then I'd crash like my nervous system got slingshotted through a kaleidoscope, anxiety, spiking, or a flickering and REM sleep. Never met her. It was like drinking battery acid on an empty stomach. Then I found mud water. It doesn't fry my circuits or my synapses. I use mud water's original blend over ice. It still has a little bit of caffeine, but it's stacked with adaptogens and new tropics like El Theanine, Traga, Linesman, Cacao. The whole Earth Squad to keep you naturally energized and to ensure that you don't wake up with the morning's scary. One sip of mud water in my cell's report for duty, two sips and boom, I'm plugged into the fungal starfleet, all systems go. So are you ready to make the switch to cleaner energy? Head to mudwater.com, that's M-U-D-W-T-R dot com, and grab your starter kit today. It's M-U-D-W-T-R dot com. Right now our listeners get an exclusive deal up to 43% off your entire order, plus free shipping, and a free rechargeable for author when you use code Jesse at checkout. That's right, up to 43% off with code Jesse, that's J-E-S-S-E, at mudwater, M-U-D-W-T-R dot com. After your purchase, they'll ask you how you found them. Please show your support and let them know we sent you. On this train, there was a carriage with scrap metal, pine. She saw two men on that, looking for something. Yeah, they have some like backpacks, but it was not backpacks, it was, they had like suits like the Superman, but one color on this silver color, with something protruding out of the back and like that. And as she watched them, suddenly they were standing on the other edge of this carriage, looking at her. And they were holding their hands on the belt with a small box, and they had very tight helmets, small, small heads, and some gloves, and she was so frightened, she was eight meters from them. That's very, very close. And suddenly I mean, she went away, and they went away and carried on with whatever they were doing. And it was nearly impossible to walk that distance on this carriage because it was so much scrap metal. So they just traveled over the metal in a way and were standing there. And she turned around, as you can see, they were still working, looking for something on this. Wow. Interesting, super strange. Did she speculate as to who they were, where they were from at all? I mean, she started to read about UFOs and tried, and nowadays, she's over 70 years of ancient. She looked on YouTube and whatever, but she asked me what I thought and I said to her, this is for me a typical encounter with strange beings because it's not typical. You're right. They are so different, they're so diverse. So it's typical for things to be unable to categorize them. Yeah. For me, it's strange. You really take a look at all of the spectrum, you will find that. That's what Jacques Vallet, you know, John Keel, a lot of these UFO researchers, once you get past a certain point, you get into this idea that the phenomena conceals itself with this absurdity element that is injected into every experience. Absurdity is the world, you know, that's a keyboard, it's really absurd. And so it's so absurd that it pre-stigmatizes itself, like the story you just told me of men in a garbage pile, seemingly doing the most low-tech thing, wearing the most high-tech suits, teleporting from can to can, or whatever. Sounds insane, but I'm sure that happened, you know? And so that seems to be this very common theme, this trickster element. Do you think that that's at play here, this idea that the phenomena almost wants to cover itself? Either way, yeah. In a way I agree with you, because there are so many high-strange cases. [BLANK_AUDIO] The other ones, you say, "Oh, this is typically a Wikisreiber." They're not very common here in Sweden, you can get them. But if you really dig into all this pile of observations, you are finding so many other stories. When you were talking about the sighting where the woman saw the being with the backpack thing protruding and the suit reminded me of a friend of a friend's account, so my best friend's sister's best friend. She was in Mexico, in Balak, California, I think, and just like sunset, taking photos of she was drinking like a coronavirus, taking a photo of it with the sunset behind, and maybe half an hour later, as she goes through the photo, she's something very, very similar to what this woman does. She drew it, so she was very scared to show the photo, but she drew it for me, and then we were going to get on the phone so that she can show me the photo just like via zoom, and I think she had cold feet, and I can't tell if it's true that the photo disappeared from her phone, but she, that's what she says, and she just says she can't find it anymore. But it was in one of the photos, and again, she was looking at what she was taking a photo off. She didn't see it with her own eyes, but it appeared on the photo. And that is so interesting because some of those aliens are carrying equipment. Yeah. Some are not. Yeah. And it's literally like what you were describing just like, yeah, yeah, it is. That's amazing. Yeah. That's so crazy with the blowback pack, and then jump seared, and then it was like a, some sort of a metal detector thing, and they're on the beach, and in Mexico, it's like, what is so weird. Yeah. Yeah, no, it's almost like a gonzo movie or something. Yeah. That's absurd. It's a short time. Yeah. Yeah. But speaking of photos that were taken where the person didn't even witness what ended up being seen in the photo, they accidentally took a photo of it. In this case, an amazing UFO. This is Claus's new book, Files of the Unexplained, and do you want to tell us a little bit about this photo? Yeah. It's taken by Hannah MacRill books. I wish you'd see if we can find it in here so we could have a bigger picture of it. I don't remember which page there it was. Yeah. I mean, look at that. So this is Vancouver Island. And you've met her, right? I talked with her on telephone. So what's the story behind this photo? Well, she was out driving together with her husband, and she stopped this mountain. It's quite well known. It was October the 8th, 1981. And she thought that the cloud seemed a little nice over the top of the mountain. So she took this picture and coming home later on and got, because it's an old film, it's not the digital film, it's an old camera, she found that there was something up in the air and it really looks like a proper fly saucer with a dome. Do you think this photo is real? I think it's real. I'm not sure how it ended up there, but I talked with her a couple of times and I mean, she didn't fake it anyway. I think she's really doing this because she's curious about it, but she doesn't understand. She seems very earnest to you and not no grifting or lying about it. Absolutely not. She helped us with the picture and no problem with that. It's like this very famous picture, you know, with Elizabeth, this little girl sitting there with a nice dress, and her father out on this more, the way only them, his wife, a little girl, took the picture and when he got it back from the photographer in the business, you can see this creature standing behind Elizabeth. So the guy who developed it said, wow, I'm sorry, but this nice picture of Elizabeth is ruined. Somebody stand behind her, it's called the astral, because it looks like an astral now. Nobody knows how it ended up there, out on this more only them, on the three of them, free horizon. Wow. What are the most, because if you look at the free Edgar Mitchell, you know, database in the US of abductees or experiencers, over 50% experienced humanoid creatures. So creatures that, you know, seem to be bipedal walking upright, almost very similar to humans in any way, is that similar to what you experienced in Scandinavia? I mean, we got stories from people that have seen like books, like entities floating. Imagine setting your makeup, then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new groupie setting mist from Mabelie, New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours, with flexible all day comfy grip. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue, just plump, dewy hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new groupie setting mist from Mabelie, New York. Maybe it's Mabelie. So you get it all. If you are into this for a couple of decades, wow, you will find that this is more complex. It's not only humanoid. So interesting. So yeah, alien is such a simplistic, it's such an oversimplification. I think so. The idea that's like, oh, we're not alone, they're out in space and they've come here or whatever. It makes us understand it. And we want to understand strange things. Yes. Well, it's true. I mean, when you look at, you know, it's funny. Three references in the US, the 2017 article from Leslie Cain, which outed, you know, OSAP or whatever, the program at Skinwalker Ranch from 2007 to 2012, and before that, you had big love studying at Skinwalker Ranch. And everybody talks about that, like, oh, that's the official alien investigation program. And if you look at what they were doing at Skinwalker Ranch, it's like, they're picking up weird electromagnetic signals, they're poltergeists, there's like a werewolf. And that's, oh, some of the anti-UFO people try to show that they think it's like all crazy or whatever. But it's actually just a way less simple phenomena than, you know, you can't, you can't memify it into this simple, you know, it's just a gray alien and they're from Zeta Ritikilai. They're going to appear at some point in the future. It's this game of whack-a-mole and it's deeply embedded with human consciousness as well. It's a good summary, I think. I mean, you must really look very broad at this. And that's why I, if you hear, it's not only only your full library, it's about the unknown. So how do you make, because you have done this here curculean effort where you have 16 of the room that we're in, which is filled to the brim with documents, how do you make progress in a field where what we just described, it's almost like Dick Hart's demon, where you're whole perceptive apparatus. Everything you see is at the discretion of possibly some of these entities showing up in random places and it's like, how do you progress in a field where it's like we're chimps and we're trying to study humans, you know, how do you progress? It is very difficult to do that. So most geophologists are looking at a particular small part of the subject. And if you do like this, you will never get ready with what you're doing, because it's so very much more complex than your thoughts from the beginning. So most geophologists are saying, "Okay, this is not interesting, I'm looking at that." Yes. And I think that's not the way forward, really. But even beyond that, like I look at like Jacques Vallet, who we were talking about earlier, one of the best theorists on the topic, you know, for French godfather of a lot of modern research. Amazing guy. And, you know, on par with you, as far as all your encyclopedic knowledge, he, you know, like if you read some of his early books, like Invisible College or something in 1975, are we that much farther as far as the theory as to what's happening than he was then? No, I don't think so either. That's sad, really. It is. And it's really impossible to get further, because it's so judged, and there's no really good scientific approach to this. Yes. We have certain scientists that are interested in this, but they are looking at their small bits and pieces as well. And one new scientific model involved, you know, science is supposed to be, you're supposed to be this impartial observer. And then you have the observed, and there's, you know, clear and distinct separation between those two. But maybe in this new model, your own consciousness or orientation towards the subject somehow matters. Absolutely. I met with the friend of mine, who is a doctor, and he's also very much into the human consciousness research. He's done research on twins and see what happened if a twin is hurt and if the other is affected. And he found that, yes, there are clear indications that twins are interacting without knowing that. Wow. And he really says to me that the human consciousness is a big part, even on the UFO phenomenon. It has to be. And I think so as well. Yes. Are you familiar with studies in parapsychology? Yes. Yeah, because if there is some sort of mind matter in her action, then that obviously has to affect, you know, what we see. Yeah, we know so little about us inside our heads. Yes. Yeah. Great mass, but that's not the answer. Do you think, you know, when you speak to Jacques Vallet, he says, you know, I would be very disappointed to find that these were just beings from another planet. From my own point of view, I'm going to be very disappointed if UFOs turn out to be nothing more than visitors from another planet because I think they could be something much more interesting. It doesn't have to do as much with space as it might have to do with space time itself. When time seems like a time travel is a big theme and a lot of his writings and, you know, when he speaks and stuff. Is that something you've thought about at all? Yeah, absolutely. I don't think the answer to the UFO question is one. I think there are many different answers on different parts of this huge complex. So it's very hard for, say, a scientist to approach this with an astronomer. They will only look at this very small part. They need to be a group of scientists and your followers or whatever doing this together. Time travel, so it moves. Time travel? There's a time travel section. You know what? Time and time travel. What? Time loops in space twists. Let's see if I can find a random steam and stuff. Let me open it. I have no clue who now I recruit. Gosh, I'm out. I just can't. It's very important. This is the NASA scientist. Oh, wow, dude. So you can see here if you read the labels here. Coilis. Yeah, William Coilis here. I wrote this series of books called Source Book Project. Only about enigmas. So here you can see. Psychology is working papers. Then he passed away and I collected this video and it took me a couple of years. Was he at all, like, was there any part of his official work at NASA that overlap with UFOs? No. It was just a hobby. This is what they look like. Biological anomalies, mammals. Oh, my God. This guy's a genius. It was a genius. This is amazing. We corresponded for many years. Then he passed. Wow. Then I wrote to his state. Yeah. I could come to him with his son. And his wife was 90 plus. Uh-huh. And she started to compile everything in order for us. Wow. And we sent two pallets from the US. Oh, she's amazing. Yeah. And this behind you here is the oldest UFO group in the world. Borderland Science Research Association. The USRA. What? That's the most interesting UFO organization because they knew, you know, they knew about crashes sometimes before they would happen. Like, there's something very interesting about them. They were new more than intelligence in case, certain cases in the 40s. Yeah. About stuff. They were first. So what, what's their deal? Because they were funded by that guy, the mysterious guy. What's his name? He was like an occultist and like a magician and. Yeah. So, uh, and then they had, they had all the early stuff around UFOs before intelligence agencies did. I went to Eureka, California. Uh-huh. I met with his guy and his garage. Uh-huh. And we packed it all together and sent it back to Sweden. Wow. And you have Tesla and. What is this brown and birch? It's probably correspondence. Who's brown? Maybe Thompson Brown. Are you sure he'll be able to look? I don't know. The mortal cell. Ron Brown. Ron Brown? Oh, it's, oh, Townsend Brown. Yeah. Don't fuck it. Yeah. You can take it. Don't go see what this is. It happened to me in the woods. I was hiking solo. New year, no phone, no gear. I was just trying to find myself. That's when I saw it. Something glowing, silent, descending through the trees, a UFO. And stepping out from it wasn't an alien or an Android. It was me. But better. Same face, same great hair. But something was different. This guy had perfect posture. He was wearing the perfect gene. And they start at just $79, six fits, sizes for every thigh on this timeline and beyond. Now, 2026 me, where's the perfect genes? They don't crush my thighs or my dreams. They're soft, but dangerous. For a limited time, our listeners get 15% off their first order plus free shipping at the perfect gene dot NYC or just Google the perfect gene and use code Jesse 15 for 15% off. That's 15% off for new customers at the perfect gene dot NYC with promo code Jesse 15. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you your khakis and get the perfect gene. TT Brown Electrokinetic Generator here. Look, that's amazing. Patten office for the Electrokinetic Generator. Well, the Borderland Society, they had connections with Brown. They had some apparatus still left in the garage that I couldn't bring, but not sure if they're functioning. I think they are still left in Eureka. Really? What apparatus? I don't really know. It's like big boxes with switches. Really? Why? I want to check that out. I'm more interested in him than anyone else. Yeah, I understand. I read a book about him just a couple of months ago. The man who mastered gravity? What did you think? I think it was fascinating. It's fascinating, right? Yeah. Isn't he the most interesting man? So many mysteries around him? He was onto something, I think so too. I think so. Yeah. I think there's something very interesting about him. Townsend Brown. Townsend Brown. Townsend Brown. Townsend Brown. There's a guy named Townsend Brown. Okay, okay, Townsend Brown. I want to look that up. The Holy Grail of Physics involves the unification of the four fundamental forces, which includes finding a missing link between electromagnetism and gravity. Einstein actually spent the latter half of his career trying to solve for this mathematical. It is my belief that this spooky inventor may have experimentally discovered this long-sought link. Which UFO case impacted you the most and changed your life the most? I grew up with the Borneo-Batti Hill case, of course, and that was usually important to me. And when I met Batti, many years ago in the early middle of the 80s, I got a quite new view on her. So it's important to meet with the witnesses. What was your new view on her when you met with her? Yeah. Well, most of your followers, if you read the books, it says that Batti Hill was not interested in UFOs at all before the encounter he had. But she was. Really? Not only that, she told me that she was sitting on the porch together with her, I think it was sister, whatever. It was a relative. And something came across in the sky and crashed and they went out in the field and brought back debris. What? From this crashed object. A few years ago, before this happened, this was in the 50s. I was over here in May visiting with the family and with the warm night, we were sitting outdoors on the porch when we saw what we thought at that time was a plane very slowly going across the sky. And while we're watching it, it exploded, midair and burp. Now, we said, you know, we say the plane blow up. We turned on the radio, we turned on the TV. Nothing. Well, up to my, by my mother's, my nephew had seen this burning debris come down from the sky and he watched it and I'm going to cool the off. He got some of that and my sister gave some pieces to me and said, we don't know what it is. Maybe I had some friends at the university, maybe he could get some of the analyzer. So I had all these pieces and I had them in the closet there on the top shelf. And you know, I didn't find anybody to analyze them. So just before, about four days before we left the car on the trip, Bonnie said, why should they have stuff up on the top shelf? Why don't we just throw it away, we could use the shelf? Well, I was having some fill in the back yard. So I took the pieces and I tore them in the back yard and when they dumped the sand, they covered them. About three days later, we'd go on the trip. Really, Betty helped. Yeah, she brought it to the fore, her encounter. Everything is still out there in the garden, if you. Well, so we got to go to her house. You must dig there. I will. Yeah. It's not her house anymore. It's in New Hampshire. It's in Portsmouth. In Portsmouth, New Hampshire. No way. So that story you can listen to at the IFU's website, I have this. conversation with her. It's in writing and you can hear her voice telling this as well. The bottom line is she wasn't very much into UFOs. That's fascinating. We got to go dig. Not the single you follow this really cares about this. They don't want to know this. Her granddaughter is a UFC fighter and I think she's friends with Joe Rogan and has gone on the show. So maybe contact her say, hey, where are the residents of the current house? This is another way to go dig and find this thing. You're wearing this epic Betty and Barney Hill. Oh, geez. Oh, geez. First abductees 1961. No, I know his granddaughter. Yeah. She Angela Hill, right? She UFC fighter. Yeah. So cool. Crazy. What is she? She did my podcast and didn't tell me until after the podcast was over there. Yeah. Joe Rogan's grandfather was Barney Hill. I was like, no, that's mad. That's amazing. You should do that. He was a lovely lady, I should say. And she told a very interesting story. And also when she drove the object to me, it looks like a box with sharp edges and big windows and a brim like a hat. Wow. And you believed her? Did you feel like she was being honest with you? Yeah. She was absolutely honest with me. And so I said she was a very nice lady. She treated us with a sponge cake and we were there all the day. So sweet. So, but it's complicated story. Yeah. Just for the audience, the core story is in 1961, Betty and Barney Hill, they were an interracial couple and they're ACLU activists, actually. And they were on a road trip from, I think it was like Niagara fall or they were in Canada, they were coming back down to New Hampshire. And on the way, they see this craft and it's flying around. And I believe there's audio and we'll play the audio for the audience. But like Barney starts to like go after the sauce or like almost like, it's like he's locked into it. And like she's afraid and wants to keep going. And then he's very afraid of that. So he don't want to pursue it. So anyway, they meet these beings. They say they're from Zeta reticuli. They have these uniforms on these little gray beings. They get taken up on the craft. Reluctantly, I believe Barney then admits that like samples were taken like gametes were taken spring cells from him. So it almost felt like some sort of like experiment being done on them. They checked on his teeth and there were false teeth because he had false teeth. Ah, interesting. They came running into Betty and asking, "Oh, what's that? What's that?" Interesting. That's the interesting thing about those aliens. They don't seem to know anything about anything. I mean, you should think that they should know. They're right. Yeah. But they're in that account. It almost sounds like they're truly trying to figure out what's going on. It's not like it's like this routine thing. But they also do this pregnancy test on Betty with the needle. And that was old here at that point really. I mean, it's not very high tech. Nobody does that anymore. So why do aliens from Cedar Etically use a method that is ancient? What do you think? I think this is not visitors in that way. And this was only told during hypnosis. Yes, later, it had not occurred. They never really remembered it in the waking. So what do you think they hadn't encountered with? That's very hard to tell, but I think that is all those stories are much more complicated. She was a firm believer in aliens visiting Earth. Right. She told Barney about her interest in that. And he didn't like that at all. But it's almost like that interest might have shaded their perception of what happened to them. When, in fact, what happened to them was much more complicated. I mean, if the beings said we're from Cedar Etically, that does point. Well, they didn't say that because that was the storm map. She drew a storm map. That's right. And that storm map is, of course, you can do that with lots of stars. Right. But they said we're from another star system. Yeah. She asked about this map on the wall and they told her that this was commercial lines for them traveling to make this. Yeah. Really? I believe, um, I've you read American Cosmic by Dana Pasolka or. Oh, yeah. Well, you're with it. Yeah. So she talks about, um, the CBS show, Outer Limits playing, uh, that was at that time. Playing 11 days, premiering 11 days before this encounter. That thing in Barney, I'll show. And the crashed metal debris in her cover that had happened so many things before. So it cannot really be sure exactly how they interpret the disease during it. Right. Well, Pasolka also says that the aliens in Outer Limits have eyes that wrap around their heads. Yeah. And that's what they see as well. So it's almost as if their perception is somewhat shaded by, yeah, maybe they're preconceived notions and knowledge. Yeah. So interesting. Yeah. You know, also another weird fact about that case is CB Jackson, Charles Douglas Jackson, who ran psychological warfare and was very involved in MK Ultra and then went on to, I believe, give this subruder film, which is the, you know, film of JFK getting shot with the missing frames. He gives that to time magazine because he's very involved in sort of a perception management for the public at the time. He's head of the psychological strategy board with Gordon Gray and a few other guys at the time. He goes and visits Betty and Barney Hill a few weeks after their abduction. Okay. So interesting. So it was already like, you're talking about the elite of the elite of American warfare operations, you know, a guy who's very high up in government going to visit these two abductees so strange in 1961. Yeah. Wow. I don't know. It's not easy, you know. It's not easy. But I think we have to find that artifact. Yeah. Yeah. Have you been digging for any other artifacts? Are they any other objects? Yeah, we have. Here is Sweden. We have up in the North. There was a guy who said that he was a young boy and he met this craft and aliens outside his house and he got this thing from them, some sort of metallic tablet. And he hid it on the ground. And we went together with him trying to find it. Wow. But we couldn't find it. Really? Is there anything have you ever found any objects that you think are convinced? No, we haven't. The only one that I've showed you, I mean, things like that, but not any bona fide, smoking can ring the microphone. Do you believe that humans have in their possession on the civilian side? Objects that might be from these beings, whatever entities we're interacting with because, as you know, Jacques Vallet publishes his mailing address online. Yeah. People will mail him pieces and recently Gary Nolan actually just went on Joe Rogan experience and, you know, one of the pieces came from Ubatuba, Brazil, where this explosion occurred on the beach and the magnesium. Exactly. Magnesium with extremely anomalous isotoparatias. It also read that there were such things at that time. Well, I think it would have been possible to have created, but you would have needed a centrifuge. Yeah. And why the hell would somebody with a centrifuge, you know, give a piece of metal to somebody in Brazil on the beach to mail to Jacques? It just feels a little crazy, but why would you be in the spaceship with magnesium? It doesn't really, it's not very good to travel in. I'll tell you why you'd be in a spaceship with magnesium. Okay. Because magnesium, bismuth, is a high-k dielectric. So it stores a lot of electromagnetic charge and it discharges it very quickly. And so if you look at like, you know, my belief is the anti-gravity or gravity manipulation effect is the by-field brown effect, named after Townsend Brown. Yeah. And if you put a high-k dielectric insulator in between two capacitors, one negative and one positive electrode, the thrust increases dramatically, the higher the k dielectric. So all of his papers include, it's two things. It's aluminum, barium, and magnesium bismuth. And bismuth specifically is this big, this big, really important part. But I don't know, maybe magnesium itself has some issues with it. Yeah, magnesium itself is not good, but if this alloy may be something different. Well, it seems like what he found had, it was like micron layers thinner than a human hair. Bismuth layers less than a human hair. Magnesium samples about 10 times the size of a human hair. And so it's extremely thinly aligned. And I think you get these topological insulators like that, where when you excite them, you seem to have electron coherence occur at scale and you get these very sort of anomalous effects. And you even have aerospace looking into some of these things. So try to explode over your bottle. So that, the speculation on Gary Nolan's part is that that was the exhaust, that's almost like the the byproduct of the craft, and who knows, you know, but. - So the exhaust should spit out metallic debris. - Yeah, I don't know. - Is it something that they're using and they need that ratio to accomplish something? Or is it a byproduct of an effect that where they take the natural things and then they're doing something? And this ends up being the outcome. And then when they're done with it, they go, eh, and they throw it out. - Do you hope to find a material that you think you can? - I hope, of course, but I'm not sure I can. But if there is a report, we will of course go there and try to find it. We are mostly focused on finding recent ghost rocket crashes. I mean, in 1980 there was a landing and an object that sank in a lake up in a very north-sweet and called Namajauru. And we have been there. And we have read our returns that something is in the mud. - Really? - Amazing. - Yes. - What are you going to go look? - We will be there again next year. - That's exciting. - So hopefully we can find something to very good witnesses. - Wow. - In the middle of the day. And they could see this object coming below 100 meters. - Yeah. - Flying over them. They follow it over the lake. And it turns around 180 towards them, lands with a splash. And sinking and bubbles are coming up. And then it's gone. And then they take out the camera from the rock sack and take a picture, of course it's gone, but they take a picture two minutes after the object is gone. They go back to Stockholm and contacts the military. And the military is your foe expert at that time, Sturivikets. He really looks into this. He tried to find an explanation. But they couldn't do that. And they sent an helicopter over the lake. And I met one of the pilots and they told me, this is a natural park, natural natural park. You want us to log to land there. But suddenly one of the passengers felt sick, yeah. So they're lands. And they can see dead fish on the, on the, near the shore. So they take the fish with them and think, wow, this is atomic power. There was some radioactivity, I killed the fish, but it was, it was only a parasite. And we found the same dead fish when we came there many, many years later. So just a parasite, yeah. But the object is there. It's four meters of mud. And our expert who went with us said, if you see something, it will be not at the bottom of the lake. Yeah. But in between, two meters. And exactly there, we got this return from an object that is still resting there. Really? We don't know what it is, but the. But there is some object. Do you know the shape of the object? No, we only saw it in two dimensions. So next trip, we will look in three dimensions. Wow. We are not allowed to bring anything with us from this natural park because it's a natural park. Yeah. So if you find something, we cannot bring it. Well, if you need any extra media coverage or help in any way, I would love to come. I'll call you. That sounds amazing. It is amazing. And this is a very good observation. And we have several cases like that, that objects are like in Norway, flying very low, turning, navigating, landing, sinking. Interesting. And it always seems to be in water. All is water. And the thing is, which I didn't really think about until recently, that all those observations around water, of course, people are living there. It's summer, they are out. It's good observation. I mean, I could see you with the lake. But not the single one has seen any object flying over the lake. And not landing. Every single observation ends with the crash or a landing. Not the fly by. It's so interesting. Why do you think that is? I mean, they want to land. They want to crash. They want to pinpoint the lake. That's for sure. And I'm not sure why they do this. Do you think it's fuel? I mean, they're running out of fuel. No, do you think water is their fuel? Oh, I mean that. Because the bonds between hydrogen and oxygen, H2O, are impossible to break from a human perspective. But if you were able to amount the energy necessary to break them, then they would be extremely energetic reaction that could power a crash. It's like driving your car into a gas station full power and trying to get some petrol. Yeah, fair enough. I mean, they should land and be there for a while and fly away. But they're either crashing straight down or landing quite hard. Yeah, but it might be hard from our perspective. And it might be refueling. I just hear no. It's interesting. I mean, they do-- water just seems like this very important element, the idea that they're transmedium. And it's important. It's not the single object that's crashed on land. It's freedom for Norway. That's amazing. Yeah. The fact that they literally only-- the ghost rocket phenomenon. But you're saying-- because we talked about this the other week. You're saying that it's not just the ghost rocket phenomena that only hits the water. You're saying all UFOs have only hit landed in the water and-- Sweden, generally. Sweden, Scandinavia. And Scandinavia. So post 46, 47, all UFOs-- That's amazing. Wow. Yeah, this wow. That's so interesting. And it's all nearly always 11 o'clock, July. Clear weather, hot weather. That's what you said last time. It's so wild. It's so strange. Yeah. Well, I mean, there's definitely some selection bias based on our observer bias, because that's when people are on their lake houses. Yeah, but actually, is this some fly bias? Yeah, it's weird. I don't. They only see those landings and crashes. That's so strange. But we have only a small sample. I mean, maybe 30. Still, that's the fact that you-- I mean, that's enough to-- that's a really important trend. You were just given access to incredibly sensitive DOD archives here in Sweden. What did you see? I mean, looking for the files from a very important military customs police operation in the early 1970s. They are still to be released in 2040, but that just the other day got the clearance to get them cleared. And did you see them? Yeah, I looked through them, but I would get the copy of them in a week or two. Well, what did you see? The interesting thing is that I found one observation that I knew the observer, this helicopter pilot. He was on standby looking for the trespassers that were flying in from Norway to Sweden in nighttime. Very strange object. Sometimes aircraft with no signatures, no lamps, nothing. But this night, he got an order to lift and go up with his helicopter, trying to intercept an object coming from Norway. And he and his co-pilot, which I will talk to next week, was flying 20 meters over the treetops. And it was moonshine. It was snow, so it was very, very good seeing. Suddenly this object coming flying under the helicopter over the treetops in this small passage of 20 meters, straight up in front of them. When I elongated rocket-like thing with no wings, no lights, nothing, and it just flies away. And it told me that I did like this. I lifted my feet, because it was so near our helicopter. Wow. And now when I got those documents, I found this report. I can see the radar plot, where they are intersecting their paths. And also the note from the-- So it was picked up by radar. Wow. And you see the radar plot where the object is intersecting with this guy's helicopter. That's amazing. And they land off to this landing. What? And the security, the military security personnel come and debrief them. And he tells the story, and they went away. What was the shape of the object? It was an elongated rocket-like thing with no wings. So similar to the Ghost Rockets. Typical Ghost Rockets. Typical Ghost Rock. What year was this? 1975. November the 7th. How fast was it moving, the object? I thought much faster than the helicopter. But they had plenty of time to see it, because of the moon and the snow on the ground. That's amazing. Because in the US, one of the holy grail events is the Tic Tac incident at Nimitz in 2004. And you don't have radar data for that. You have four looking infrared, which is kind of controversial. And they say that the radar data ended up getting classified. And in this case, you have an eyewitness, and you were able to see corroboration from the DOD archives that this object intersected this helicopter. At this time, that's amazing. And I would talk to his cool pilot in a couple of days and get his view as well. So we had two witnesses documentation and what I'm looking for now is, of course, the security personnel's notes. Wow. I have no access to them and I'll think that we'll not have any access to them. Well, how would you get that? I will try to get it, but-- How would you get the security personnel? I know people that works within the war archives. OK. And they can help me to say if that it's there. To see if he was actually debriefed when he came there. I'm sure he was because all operation was built on that. If you were debriefing people after all those events. And did you-- and you've spoken to this witness firsthand? Yeah, firsthand. And I talked to this helicopter pilot just a couple of days ago. As soon as I found those documentations, I called him and said, OK, now I know which date it was. And I can see that they made this note that an object passed very close to the helicopter. And this is being declassified for everybody. At what point did this be released to the public? Yeah, I mean, it will be when I'm getting it, it will be. And so when will that be? When this will be released? In a couple of weeks, I think it all depends on how much I have to do scanning. Is the pilot in Stockholm? No. Where is the pilot? It's far away from here. OK, so to say. In Sweden though. And he's really near Norway. That's Stockholm. And he's Sweden, yeah. Damn. The other pilot is in Australia. OK. Wow. Amazing. Well, that seems like an unprecedentedly important case. It is. A new case. And I hope that I can really find all the pieces here. Do you have any other cases like that where you have radar corroboration for an eyewitness sighting? Because that seems like very important. Yeah, we do have. I've seen with my own eyes, a military radar, a UFO. Really? You've seen with your own eyes. And when was that? And what's the context? It was, I think, 2005. It's what we call the first mobile picture of a UFO in Sweden. It was two guys up in this cottage in the very north of Sweden. They were sitting playing cards, quite late. And they hear a strange noise. So they went out. And they saw this very illuminated object coming towards them. And it's moving around this cottage. So one of them gets his mobile phone and take a picture. And you can see it's a very bright object with such flashes around, but that's probably a lens flare, but it's a very bright object. And it flies around the cottage and then it vanishes. So I go to the military radar unit, which is very secret. You cannot just go there, but I know people. And I can see the radar returns from this event. And if you see the object coming, going around, it's a vision. So yeah, that's the case, you can collaborate. That's absolutely incredible. Have you seen, so you don't have a UFO material, have you seen the remnants of a UFO? Just like you showed me that little piece of wrong where it's interacted with a local physical environment and something that's left in them, okay? Because you told me last time about Lillipads being affected by the ghost rockets, and you're showing that it's interacting with the physical environment. Radar is obviously reflecting radio waves, and so that's like a really important, you know. And I interviewed six people at the radar station in the very normal Sweden. Oh, really? I found them one by one. They were there in the winter of 1973 and 1974. At that point, they had left this mountain, you know, they're deep inside the mountain. They are up on the surface at the launch. And they are looking out around, and suddenly they see over the treetops, this cigar-shaped object, moving like this. So they are running down into the radar equipment, and they can see the object on the radar screens. It's doing 90 degrees angles like this, and suddenly it flies away, over Norway, and straight up. And every one of those six, I found them during several years, are telling the same story. Wow. Oh, six. Yeah. That's amazing. Do you have them all on camera and stuff? No. I have them on tape, only. Okay. Well, that's good. The problem is that they told me that their commander is in the mountain. They were asked by him to take pictures of the radar screens. So they did. Yeah. But I have found them. I don't know where there can be. Is the tape published on your website, or? No. No, I never published the tape. I've written about them in my books and things like that. These are hit or Evans and his wife, Mary Evans, and they are passed away now, but they still Mary Evans picture library, who can buy pictures, one of the biggest picture archives in England. Cool. So, and half of the books you see here comes from Hillary. Look at these books, some of these are beautiful. Yeah. Also, the classic ones, really. Oh, Frederick W.H. Myers. Yeah. I have that book. We have it in very early editions. You know what inspired him to write this book? I don't remember now. Jesus' resurrection. He wanted to prove it using science. Well, he didn't manage that. William James was president of society for cyclical research, but he was close with William James and part of that. You know what this is? Yeah, of course. What do you think of this? I think it's something military, but not what conspiracy theorists. Conspiracy theorists think that this is weather modification, weather control. Yeah. If they're doing that, they're doing it very badly. Speaking of conspiracy theorists, you wrote a whole book on solar flares. Yeah. So, what do you think of solar flares? People say that now we have very high solar activity and that the magnetosphere of the earth might be weakening. The magnetic poles are shifting. That's problem. Yes. The Charles Habgood, that that creates this sort of a cataclysm. No, not Charles Habgood theory, really, but the science theory is really solid, and it could be problematic when it happens. Interesting. Because every gadget you have, like trying to navigate with would be topsytorvy. Yeah. And some of the solar events in the past, like the 1859 Carrington event, would wipe everything out. Is that happens today? That would be a very devastating. You'd have no electronics, no Wi-Fi, no, yeah. Your grid would be down, no running water. Yeah. Yeah. And we don't have the spare parts. Yeah. So it would take months and months and months to rebuild a electrical system. Do you think that solar flares send with them a message, or there's any sort of intelligent, you know, there's a scientist in the UK, he's in London and Hampstead outside of London named Rupert Chalderick, and he writes about the sun being conscious. Yeah. He wrote the Gaya book in the 1970s, and we're up with that, and I know about Rupert Chalderick very well. Yeah. No, I don't think the sun is conscious, I think it's a star. Uh-huh. And a star does what a star does, and the Earth is not important to the star. Yes, but okay, if I were to push back, maybe the magnetosphere of the Earth is very important for all animal morphology to grow correctly. Like you could put a frog embryo in a fair day cage and it won't grow correctly. If you put an actual Wi-Fi router, it won't grow correctly. So there's something about the human resonance, which is part of the Anthropic Principle allows things to grow. And then the sun creates the perfect amount of UV radiation to create the perfect amount of mutations to allow for, you know, biological evolution. Like if evolution were too fast, it wouldn't be adaptive, and if it was too slow, it wouldn't be adaptive. And then now we have this new physics that, how put off is exploring around the possibility of a scalar field. And the NASA and the DOE just published a podcast around scalar physics. And so these scalar waves would get produced by the sun, and they move in ways that are don't decay or attenuate over space time like your traditional transverse hurricane wave. So you could have some sort of communication, you know, to life on Earth via the sun. I don't think it's communication. I think it's what the star does. I mean, every star does things like that, and they are not aware of it. They only do their thing. But of course it affects the life on Earth, absolutely. Yes. But you could say something very similar about a human through materialist reductionist lens. You could say we're ultimately, we have the illusion of consciousness, but we're not consciousness. and so, you know, we'll never know. (laughs) - Never know, of course. - I think it's quite the big difference between us and the song, or. - It's impossible to say that. I mean, clearly, yes, phenomenologically. But, you know, are we anthropocentrically cutting off consciousness, you know, at a certain scale because that's our scale, you know, I don't know. - We are a tiny fraction of the universe. So. - Yes. This is my friend, Frederick Fildal. He's a good guy. He's in Copenhagen. Do you know him? - No. - Ah, he's cool. Marna met him, actually. Was it, it was two summers ago. This was right before we did the David Grush then. - So how many countries do you have files from? - Who? - I don't know, I have no, also to that. We have Japanese files, foreign assistant Russian files. - Wow. - I went to Russia once trying to say the KGB files. And when I went there, it was the fighting in the street. There were soldiers everywhere, they were shooting. But we were able to find a guy who had copies of some of the KGB files. - Mar, do you have any, does anything coming up for you? - Do you have a spend, do you think it's doing this and I'm just curious with why? - Ha ha. - Yeah, why am I doing this? Because I'm very curious about how our world functions. I want to know what people already see. I want to get to the bottom of this mystery. And I've done that on several, several cases. I know, know what they saw. But there are a couple of hundred cases during the years that I'm still very baffled about. But I don't want to prove anything. I have no X to grind. I'm not a believer. I'm just a curious researcher that I'm aware of that the answers could be something quite different from what I thought from the beginning. - Is there something autobiographical, whether it's synchronicities you experience, something in your own life that keeps you going, where when you're thinking of maybe stopping or quitting, something-- - I'm quite stubborn, you know. - What's that? - I'm stubborn. - Sounds like you are. - Yeah, and I'm a natural researcher really from the beginning. I'm an amateur astronomer and all that. I was chosen the educator of the year here in Sweden. - It's amazing. - So people know that I really try very hard. And of course, it's okay to believe, but I want to know. - Yeah. And when you say no, what is that, if you were to instantiate that in something very specific? - Yeah, I want to know what happened, really. - I'm not sure I want-- - So do you want an alien being to come down and tell you, do you want a material, where you're like, this is definitely-- - In every single case, I want to know what happened. - Oh, that's tough, man. (laughing) Because-- - It's tough. - I even think about what people talk about as disclosure, and it's like if a craft were right here, and it had isotope ratios that were weird and technology that we don't really understand as far as antigravies, some, you know, heavy element reactor thing, what would that do for us? Like, that would be-- - Change everything, of course. - Well, it would change everything, but it would be get a thousand more questions. It wouldn't be like, you know, your whole, I want to know. It wouldn't be like, I know now, it would be like-- - You can never know. - Tell me what is going on. - Yeah. - What's impossible. As you'll say, every knowledge gets some new questions. - Yeah, that's true. - You know, knowledge questions grow at an exponent of your knowledge growing. So it's like, you could think of knowledge like a volume in like a cylinder or a sphere or something. The more the sphere grows, the questions grow, you know, the outside at an exponent. - Yeah. - And so the more you know, the less you know. And that really should be sort of with everything. But then you have these sort of stultified fields, which is how, you know, academia teaches it, where it's like, this received wisdom. And it's like the law of thermodynamics. And it's like, you get to the end of the chapter and that's it, you know, the end of it. But nothing is that simple. - I usually say that we are standing at the very top of a mountain on knowledge today. - Yes. - But the mountain is resting on this mountain that is even bigger. - Yes. - That is moving into the future. - That's beautiful. - And suddenly we are a little higher up, but there is always a new mountain. - Are there any philosophers in the UFO space or even outside of UFOs who you think speak most to the UFO question or researchers that you're really inspired by? - Yeah. I'm inspired by, of course, be it Sandshack-Valley, but Chris Olbeck is a very, very good researcher. It's the best researcher when it comes to old cases. - Yes. - It's fantastic. His books are fantastic. And one of his latest books called "Saucers" shows that the "Saucer Shape" is so scarce. It's not very much reported. - Yes. - Still people talk about "Saucer Sometimes" and think that it should be "Saucer Life". But it's only a fraction of all the observations or "Saucer Life". - Yeah, even if you look at like where "Saucer" came from, you know, the Kenneth Arnold case, it wasn't really "Saucer Life". They kind of look more like Horton Wing. - Yeah, they're more presence. - Crescence, yeah. Like Ninja Stars or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's interesting. Do you think Carl Jung wrote a book about flying saucers? Are you familiar with this? - Yeah, I read a few. - And he said that it was the "Mandala", which was the Sanskrit symbol of psychic completeness is represented in the UFO. - The archetype he talks about then. In a way, I understand him, but I don't think he's very important to you for research. - Yeah. - But of course, if you're living in a society, in a society, you are telling the stories that the society can manage to listen to. - Yes. - And we are conforming all the time. So it's not strange that it was airships in the 1800s. - Yes. - And full fighters and then ghost rockets and now space ships. It's just that we are using the words we have the most high-tech thing we can think of. - Yes. - So I don't think it must be anything of that. - But what's also just John Mack, Harvard, head of the psychiatry department there, he would say that the tech we would see would be at the bleeding edge of what we could even create. - So it is in some ways. - Even things will really, I'll take. - Yeah. So in some ways, you are snapping it to a grid and you have this meme in your head and you're superimposing it on what you understand. But in other ways, it's actually like leading technology itself. Like airships were just starting to be a thing but they weren't really a thing in the 1890s. So maybe they're inspiring technological innovation. - And you can say the sound about the sci-fi writers, you know. - Yes. - They have been leading many of the guys who got us to the moon. - Yes. - They read the sci-fi for us. - Oh yeah. - And there was a Bible that had thought, "Wow, this could be done." - Yes. - So you need that element to be able to take the next step. - You absolutely do. And I think, yeah, you need the mythological element, almost always supersedes the actual doing of the thing. But I think we've lost that for at least a little period after World War II, maybe an hour. It seems like things are speeding up again. - I mean, after the World War II, we were occupied with other stuff, really. - Yes. - Speeding the world again. The dreaming were maybe put in the drawer for a while. - Do you think there's something about, you know, just the space programs themselves that interacts at all with the UFO phenomena in a deeper way than meets the eye? - I don't think so. No, I don't think so. - Cause you said you spent some time with Edgar Mitchell, right? - Yeah, yeah. - So Edgar Mitchell's the sixth man to walk on the moon. - Yeah. - He Apollo 14 on the way back from the moon. He had this sort of parapsychological conversion where he-- - He's an experiment with the Swedish guy, really. - Ah, really? Tell me about it. - Yeah, they had managed to put this program that Edgar Mitchell should be sending things, and the other one was to pick them up. - So like a typical mind matter experiment, where you have a sender and a receiver, okay? - But there are some problems with that because the time frames were not, or they were not followed as they should have been. But it was interesting that they did it. - Very. And was it a successful experiment? - Ah, not that successful. - Okay. - No, no. They didn't prove anything, really. No, but it was done, and that was very interesting. And he started this society afterwards, Edgar Mitchell, that worked with the psychical things. - The noetic society. What did you learn anything when you spent time with him? - Yeah, the thing he was very adamant about was that not a single astronaut had ever seen you for a win space. - Hmm. - I mean-- - I'm not sure about that. - I'm sure. He said it to me, so I mean-- - Yeah, but maybe-- - He was a mole. - He was also in NDAs. And I don't know if you know this James Spock story, but Buzz Aldrin. and according to his sister had seen a UFO as a fighter pilot in World War II. And James Fox had heard rumors that he had also experienced things in space. And so he followed Buzz Aldrin all around the world. Buzz Aldrin was like, I'm in this country, I'm in this country and he's paying for hotels in the different countries just to interview Buzz Aldrin. And he's about to get his interview. He's staying at the Monte Carlo Hotel in Monaco. And Buzz Aldrin says, I'm not doing the interview. I said, what do you mean you're not doing it? It was like, I can't do it. He's Paul Allen, just invested in SETI and he got labeled a UFO freak or something. And I can't jeopardize my initiative. I'm working with Congress right now. I'm trying to get my money to develop a rocket. It's gonna help put civilians into space. I can't do it. He's implying that he has something to say about UFO, but if he did, it would hurt his reputation. Then he said, he said, how's my story gonna change anything anyway? And I said, well, with all due respect, sir, people of your caliber coming forward really helps elevate this topic. Your testimony would be paramount to do that. And remember, this is in the 90s, right? Yeah, probably the late 90s. I talked to him, but yeah, it was a while ago. And so he's like, well, I can't, I'm sorry. It's not gonna happen. So that was devastated. Like devastated. I mean, maybe we're reading into it, right? You never know. You want to believe. But he's kind of implying in that comment that he has something to say about UFOs. And so, and then there's speculation obviously in American cosmic that astronaut signed NDAs for a reason. You have this guy who now has been outed. His name is Tim Taylor, his NASA mission controller. And he says, you know, astronauts are forced to stay silent, but they all see stuff in space. And so you have more and more coming out about this. So you think-- I know a lot of astronauts in cosmic. You do, yeah. And not the single one of them has said anything like that. Fair enough. Do you know any very well, or how-- Yeah, I mean, the Swedish ones are not very well. OK. I got to know a Gammicia very well. OK. I met with a couple of guys who walked on the moon and a few, maybe 10, Cosmonauts from Russia. Yeah. And one of them told this story that he fooled the other guy in the capsule when he knocked his elbow in the capsule. It produced those ice particles flying out. And they said, wow, look there. Oh, wow, it's a fleet of UFOs. That I know. But I only tried to comment on things that I really spent time. Do you know who Leonov is? One of the fathers of the Russian space program? No, I don't know. So his goddaughter is a woman named Dr. Yea Whiteley. I don't know if you're familiar with her. But she's a space psychologist. And she sees a lot of astronauts. And she says they all see stuff in space, too. So it's so interesting, because you seem extremely hard-headed and thorough. I mean, they're like those thorough guys. And so I fully trust you. And you say you know a lot of astronauts. I don't know if he heard it from the horses mouth. Yeah, me too. I don't know someone else obsessed over that. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, no, I do, too. What's so strange about Edgar Mitchell is, Edgar Mitchell left behind in a state. And he had many papers in this estate. One of the papers from the estate is the Wilson memo, which is now talked about ad nauseam in American UFO disclosure, where you have records of Eric Davis, who's a civilian scientist, who's obviously extremely well-versed in exotic propulsion, and you know, UFO stuff, related stuff. And Admiral Thomas Wilson, who's head of J2 joint chiefs, who's supposed to be in charge of all, you know, military technology. And they're meeting outside of the EG&G parking lot. And Thomas Wilson is livid that he hasn't been read into UFO programs. That wasn't meant for public consumption. And that was released from Mitchell's estate. And that was supposed to be destroyed when you're after Mitchell got a copy of it as a courtesy from who generated it. And unfortunate that his kids were sloppy. And I guess Ed was sloppy in that. He didn't give any instructions on what to do with that document if he should die. But he was supposed to destroy that, as far as I understand. It seems like Edgar Mitchell had some really interesting access. He was very interested in UFOs. Yeah, absolutely, very interesting. Why did he, if he goes to space, none of his colleagues see anything in space. He does a couple of parapsychology experiments. Why does he come back so high conviction that, you know, I mean, he was a believer even before, I mean. He was. So he was curious about this. But he didn't see anything, and he says that, "No one else did." So I only can tell what he told me. What were the interesting things he told you? We talked a lot about the Meta-Jury Geller. You know, he did experiments with Jury Geller. He was very much impressed by him. I met Jury Geller as well. I'm not impressed by him at all. I have friends to do exactly the same tricks as he can do. Yeah, he seems like a bit of a con man. He's a, yeah. Well, he also, he got, now he goes on Twitter, and he goes, he goes, "Put in, don't press the button." He goes, "I had a vision that you're going to." And it's like, "He's been wrong so many times." That's what it looks like, sir. And I met with James Randi, you know, James Randi. Yeah, of course. Yeah. We sat like this, but he went closer. And he bent his spoon in front of me. I couldn't tell how he did it, but I know how he, how he did it. He bent it like that. I couldn't see. But the thing he did, he put my hand over my own watch, and then his hand over my hand, and then he moved it. I did that. It was five hours like that, and we did the game. And he was back to the same time. So interesting, interesting. It's hard to do that, but-- Well, he was an amazing magician. Yeah, he was the amazing Randi. The amazing Randi. But he also, I don't know, I think in some ways, he could have been a bad faith actor. You're like, Gary Geller is one of these things where cases where, you know the Princeton Parapsychology Lab has a whole book on Gary Geller. And like, they studied him a lot. Andre Puharic brought Gary Geller to the States. And I think it was there to get a Michel Math with your EGeller. Oh, interesting. So I think there might have been something interesting going on with him from just a pure Parapsychology perspective. And then he also blew it out of proportion. Had all this BS stage magic that he was doing, and then you get the amazing James Randi with his prize to be-- But the most gullible people you can all score are the scientists. You should put-- That's interesting. Well, what do you mean? I kind of agree with you. What do you mean by that? They are not prepared to be fooled. They are prepared to watch if they can see something strange and measure it. Ah. So they think that reality is, oh, that's so interesting. So they're not prepared for a magic trick or something. No, no, no. Ah, that's so good. That's so fascinating. I like the way you put that. Anything else, Edgar Mitchell told me to do it. I wrote a long article. I think you can find the article in English if you're looking for my name and Ed Mitchell. Cool. Because I published it and it's out there. That's fast. It was nice to have a long, long talk with him about everything that I was interested in. What UFO-related meeting impacted you the most? Oh, that was hard. I mean, when I was young and my first investigations, I think that made the most impact on me. Because there was this huge observation near my hometown when I was 16. There were lots of policemen and journalists standing at the top of this mountain, watching for hours an object moving in the south. And I was out behind my house at the same time, 100 kilometers away. And I also saw the object. But they didn't understand what it was. And they were so excited about this. They made drawings that was really fanciful. And there was so much speculation. Every newspaper wrote about this. And I knew what it was. Well, I wrote to the newspapers. I was 16. And I published my explanation. It was the planet Jupiter. It switched from hours. And it was so scared about this. Everyone took pictures of it. They were printed in the newspapers. And I could compare the stars around this object with my pictures taking the same evening of Jupiter. Why the same stars? Why would they be so freaked out about the planet Jupiter? Because they didn't know what it was. And it doesn't normally show in the sky there. One guy, a civilian, was there. He was an Adamski believer. OK. He was a true believer that Adamski had traveled in space with aliens. And he pointed to his orbit and said, can't you see the windows? They were looking. Yeah, yeah, we can see the windows. But what they could see were the moans. to three moons that were. uh. Jupiter at that point. That's unbelievable. So he was impacting them and that was very, very good learning for me, that if you have a group of people, they tend to see the same stuff. You don't want to be the guy that's supposed to party. So they're crowd-like dynamics? Absolutely. That's also my first big UFO case. It's like Gary Nolan, where he got into becoming the UFO scientist by debunking a case, like the out of common mummy or whatever. So at what point you do that, you debunk this case. Yeah, I did. And then at what point do you decide you're going to dedicate your life to UFO research? I already decided that a couple of months earlier. So this was just the big case. But then I met a lot of people with strange stories that was very much more difficult to understand. But why did you decide that a couple of months earlier? What was the moment? I started a small UFO society in my hometown called Euphomari Staud. Had you had an experience? No, not at that time. I had not seen anything. I was just curious about how everything works and what did people see? I wanted to know what people saw in this guy. Have you had an experience since then? Yeah, yeah, I had an experience to win my wife in 1995, November the 5th. We were out traveling by car. It was midnight. We had been out meeting with guys. So I think it was a birthday party. I was driving. And I only was sitting beside me. We were just coming into our suburbs of Stockholm. We were very near our house. And there were two guys standing at the bus stop waiting for the last bus. One of them were pointing up in the sky. Other one was looking. So I said to Emily, "Can you lean forward and see what they were looking at?" Which she did that. But she said, "No, it's a fantastic sky. It was. It was a brilliant, story sky all the night we were traveling back to Stockholm." So we passed them. We were quite near our house. We parked the car inside our garage. And we went out. And after now I will take a look as if I can probably find out it was a planet or whatever. So we scanned the sky. It stood one meter from each other and suddenly out of the black in the Gemini between Castor and Pollux. Not from the horizon. Just back. Came three illuminated plus sides. And they flew. They flew over us. And I only saw it immediately. So I didn't have to say anything. They said, "Oh, did you see?" So we ran off to them around the corner because they passed over our roof. And we could see them flying over our neighbors roof and vanishing. And they were like glued together. It was a small space behind beside them. But they were glued together. And they were so easy to see. When you say glued together. I mean, they were moving exactly the same speed. Three different plus sides. Were they like three UFOs perpendicular to one another? Or were they like beside each other? So it was okay. So they were plus sign formations of UFOs. No, they were plus signs. Solid plus signs. Solid plus signs. Wow. Have you ever returned of a case or like that? Not at that point, but I took a look, but I should say one more thing that I said to elderly. We don't talk. We go inside. Here's a form. You'll sit in the kitchen. I'm sitting here. Spoken like a true UFO researcher. So you literally made yourself like this double blind window. And then you both described what you say. And you didn't talk. No, that's amazing. You maintained your discipline even in your own sight. What you don't know. That's awesome. So we made drawings and everything and they were not exactly the same. And they never are, but they were of the same objects. Wow. Yeah. And after that, I put an investigator for UFO Sweden to try to find an answer. So he tried to see if he could find an answer to this, but he couldn't. Were the plus signs what color white or white, okay. And how fast were they traveling? Wow. How low were they? They felt very low, but it's impossible to tell them in the most black sky and stars, but they were not satellite altitude, not aircraft altitude. They were lower. Any other anomalies, like rainbow turns or disappearing or lights or thing was that they were really coming out of the blue or the black, not from the horizon. That was a strange thing. It's like they just appeared. Yeah. And I never, I never talked about this to anyone for months, except for the researcher, because it was so strange. But half a year later, I was interviewed on radio and I was asked, have you seen anything? And I couldn't lie. So I told the story. And then the telephone rang a couple of hours later and the guy said, you should talk to my mother. I called her. She was in her 80s. And she was a young girl in the 30s. And she had been out with her mother who was inside the house. She was waiting outside the house in this field. Middle of the day, sunny. She was just bored. The suddenly on the road in front of her, three illuminated plus signs appeared out and over, rolling on the road. Huge. And gone. Wow. Were yours also rolling? No. Okay. Hers were. Yeah. Years were more floating. Yeah. Rigid. Rigid. Really. Wow. That must have, it's almost like a cosmic joke that the UFO researcher sees a thing that looks so not like. Yeah. Flying saucer. Or even though the flying saucer wasn't seen that much or triangles or it's the more common thing. Class, do you think? What do you ever wonder? What if in one of these random manila envelopes? The answer. Yeah. Or is just the most undeniable evidence? Yeah. Of course. We haven't read them. Yeah. I mean, we have read some of them. So you need, we need to get you funding, man. We really need to get some funding to make this available. Do you have any plans to digitize? We do it all the time. Okay. All the time. We only want guy to do it. Oh. So we're sitting under an overlaunch, you know? What's that guys? I was giving a shout out. Life or strength is a real hero. Life, Austrian. Thank you for doing what you're doing. That's amazing. Who has spent the longest amount of time here as an independent UFO researcher and has gone the deepest on the files besides you. Yeah. Yeah. Who could that be? We have some friends in Europe, of course. Yeah. Greg Eugene from the US. He spent a couple of weeks here writing his book. He's a professor in history in Penn State. Interesting. Yeah. So he spent a couple of weeks. Why did he, is he in the UFOs? Yeah. He wrote this book about the history of UFOs. He did. Yeah. Okay. I don't know who he is. Well, he's often on TV at Pixar, but I can expert. It's very good. Do you like him? Yeah. I like him. Really good research. Sure. Do you know the Penn State can, um, Eric Walker? Do you know who that name is? Cool. Cool. Dr. Eric Walker. He was at Penn State in their materials lab. He was a lead scientist. And he had a lot of interesting meetings where he seemed to claim that he was part of the majestic 12. Yeah. There's a British Armenian physicist named Azadel. And that guy spoke to Henry Azadel. Henry Azadel. He's a very, very loose guy. He has several names. He published his Hilbert Diamond's Health Africa thing with the fraud. So do you think he was like an intelligence? Yeah. Yeah. I don't trust him at all. So maybe do you think his conversation wasn't real with? I don't know, but Henry Azadel. He's not a bona fide, uh, a UFO guy. Because you know about his conversation with Eric Walker. No, I don't know about that, but I know about Henry Azadel. So, I mean, I'm sure you're familiar with Grant Cameron. Yeah. Yeah. So Grant Cameron wrote a book and it is a whole transcript of a conversation between. Grant is a good guy. Yeah. Henry, I mean, he faced those documents or he did spread them with the knowing of that being fake. Apparently, there was a meeting between Kit Greene and Eric Walker where Kit Greene was like, "I want to know about the UFO secrets." Yeah. And Eric Walker kicked him out of the office and was like, "I can't tell." He was like, "I know about this, but I can't tell you even he got very paranoid." Okay. So I, you know, and then there's also, um, I'm sure you're familiar with Steinman, William Steinman. Yeah. So William Steinman also had correspondence with Dr. Eric Walker. Yeah. Because he was in touch with Sarbacher. Sarbacher described somebody like Eric Walker as being very involved with crash retrievals. And so he, I believe he went to Penn State Steinman. - Mm-hmm. - Him and Scott Crane, I believe, his other colleague. And they tried to meet with Eric Walker and Eric Walker again, was like, you guys are chasing your tails. You're like, I think he called them actually. There's a call between Steinman and Eric Walker. And he said, you know, what do you know about the sixth sense? What do you know about Sai? And then he says, you know, nothing. I don't know anything. It's until you know about that. You don't know anything about this. And you're chasing your, you're basically, it's like Don Quixote. - Yeah. - It's fascinating. So I was just thinking that, 'cause this guy's-- - That's just interesting, but not the Henry. - As Adele, yeah. - Yeah, here's too many problems. - But you can't, if somebody is an intel agent and they have a lot of fake stuff involved with them, you can't always throw the baby out at the back a lot. - You can't throw a trust on them. - For sure, you always have to take everything with a total grain of salt. But you also can't discount everything they say. - There are people I think in the US now who are on the circuit, who I'm pretty sure are like disinfo. But you, that doesn't mean you should not talk to them. - No, no, absolutely. - Yeah. - Absolutely. - And then hold things in very low probability that they say and look for real corroboration. But yeah. - I agree with that. - Yeah, okay, okay, okay, okay. - Sure, sure, sure. But there are too many of them. So it's very hard to distinguish. - There are a lot. Yeah, yeah. - I'm just saying what the Henry has a dead-up man, like maybe some stuff's true, some's fake, you know. - Yeah, we could very well be like that. - So, class you mentioned Adamski, which is a very interesting case around a guy who also might be kind of a conman or a snake oil sails but it's hard to say. So it seems like he was caught in some lies. - Some people think that he was just a puppy for the government or things like that. - Right. - So many of the pictures he took, you know, those mother-ships and scout-ships, he was traveling, he said with the aliens to the moon and other things. - Do you think there is anything to any of his comments or statements or he was hanging out with some interesting people, you know, saying it with George Vantassel, right? - Yeah. - Who was, you know, Howard Hughes contemporary. And so do you think there was anything to that case? - It's rather complicated, but I don't think his pictures have been properly analyzed. I think there should be. There was one guy who did some analytic work on it but he don't want to share when I asked him if he don't want to share how he did it. - Yeah. - And I don't like that. I know there are diaries that Adamski wrote. - Yeah. - I love to see them, I know they're glen-steckling, I read them, and I would love glen to share that but we have not gotten that far. - Yeah. - So there are still some openings or closings I'm not sure which one it is, to the case. So I want to know more really about Adamski. - So you haven't made up your mind? - I'm not made up my mind. I keep a slight, a little open door. But I think most of it are not as good as it should be. - What about Billy Meyer? He's another Swiss. - Oh yeah. - You and Meyer don't trust. - You don't, you think that he hoaxed the photo. I mean the photos look too good to be true in many cases but then also complicated where people say, in the beginning he was attracting real stuff and so, and he'd get the same things sometimes the Chris blood so where people are like. - I thought like a story or no. - I mean the beginning it was good, yeah, yeah, yeah. - I don't buy that. - You don't buy that. - And if I have loads of his pictures at home. - Yeah. - And some of them are so incredibly bad. You can see their models standing on the table. - That's not good. - He used to even pictures from books. - Yeah. - You know the time travel he made to the dinosaurs? - Yeah, yeah, that was so strange. - I have the book at home. It took a picture of a dinosaur in that book. I said, oh this is the picture I took when I traveled back back in time. - That's crazy. - No, that's crazy. - He says that in the book. - Yeah. - Okay, after this it's hard to take him seriously. He took a photo of a dinosaur in the book and it's clearly a fake photo. - Yeah, yeah, I have the book myself. I compare it to this exactly the same picture. - Jesus Christ. - And you have this picture when an alien is standing with this ray gun or her hand, I don't know. The alien is cut exactly there as you can only see the arm. And it's incredibly fake looking gun, like from a toy store. - I just had a guest on who said, this guy's in Jason Residur, Johnny, he says that Billy Myers was like an MI6 agent. Have you heard of that? - Billy Meyer. Also not really his name. His name was Edward Meyer. He got the name Billy when he was working in Tehran. The guy was 007. He was a James Bond style super spy field intelligence operative, working primarily in the Middle East. - Billy Meyer. - Until he had an accident in Turkey and a bus accident his arm was severed. And then he moved on to this property in Switzerland where he became an older man and he became the Billy Meyer that we associate with the contactee phenomenon. - I didn't know that. I dug up this and have documented it all in closer encounters. So Edward Meyer was working for somebody in the Middle East that gave him access to all of the Arab potentates. He met with all of the royalty in the Middle East. He had access to the court of the Shahbeeran and in particular he was very close to the King of Jordan. - Billy Meyer. - Billy Meyer. - What? - He had like a British intelligence test. - He was trying to love to make stories better. - Yeah. - Most of the time he's just a crazy guy. - You're crazy. - And he helps things to make himself a new thesis like Billy Meyer really tried to do. - That seems to be a thing. I mean one of the best books I think in UFO research is Jacques Valais, Messengers of Deception and it's like you get all this cult creation around you know certain figures in the UFO. - It's interesting because there are, here in Sweden we have quite a few sorcerer cults. - Yeah. - There are guys who want to make themselves bigger than they are. - Really? - A told stories that are quite far out and God's followers, mostly women. - Okay. - On those, yeah. - Interesting. What do you think, I feel like I need to ask you because you've probably seen more UFO photos than maybe anybody in the world. - Yeah, loads of them really. - What is your top UFO photo? - Is there? And you won't. I mean the thing about UFO photos is that they were better earlier. - Yeah. - The 70s. And when you call the guys who took the pictures in the 70s, they tend to say, okay, I've faked it. - Really? - I did so with every single Swedish 1970 photo and it's always Jungman, not a single girl. And when I called them 10 or 15 years later, and they said, okay, I admit, I did it. It's faked, except one. It was still a main tasty story. And that picture looks so faked, but he's a Christian. He's a very firm believer in Jesus and he lives a good life. And I give him the chance every second year I call him again and say, hi, it's me. - You can admit that you faked it now. - Yeah. - And he won't admit it. What's his name? - Oh, yeah, he's Sweden, so I'm not sure. Christa Soonstrom. - Okay. - Yeah. - And what can you have the photo? - Yeah, I don't have it here, but I can, of course. - You can send it. - I can send it so you can have it here. - I'd love to see it. - Absolutely. - Is that the most visually appealing clear photo that you can't debunk? - It's incredibly clear. I can fake it any minute if I want. - I did it. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - I did it as well. - Well, that's the problem with all these photos. Oh, you see, you did fake it. - Yeah, I did it fake. - Well, you can fake any of these photos and then some certain ones you can't also debunk. And so they end up inherently in this liminal space where if you have a guy who seems really honest and like there's no incentive to fake it, then you're stuck, there's no way to fully prove it or disprove it. - The thing is that it's not the picture, it's the story. I mean, when you go through this guy and make an interview and to make him show how, he saw this incredibly strange strip and how he took the picture and what happened afterwards, then it falls apart. - Really? So you think that there's, that it's fake because the story doesn't actually exist. - Yeah, the story, if you meet with people, you can get the facts you need, not by analyzing the picture. - But this very Christian guy, do you think that that photo is fake? - Yeah, I think it's fake. - You think it's fake. So what's the best UFO photo that you think is real? - Yeah, I was trying to find out that. Most people should say the McMeen will-- - McMeen will, yeah. - But of course, I went to this conference in France a couple of years ago and this analyst showed us that it can clearly see there is a string if you make a data enhancement of it. - Really? - So I don't know anymore. - Oh no, the McManville. - Yeah. - That's like, a holy grail, you know? It's very hard to find a picture, you can say that wow this is good. Wow. You have to look for the story. So is it safe to say there are no UFO photos that your very high conviction are real? Yeah, I have no photos that I'm except the one I told you about with the radar returner, I saw myself. That picture is of course of the thing that flow around the lake and the radar picked up. So that was in the northern part of Sweden in 2005. And since I saw the radar return myself on the military radar, I know it was there and of course he couldn't know it was the military radar. So you have on that case, you have radar, you have a photo, you have no witnesses. Any of two witnesses, that might be one of the best UFO cases ever. It's for real, and that happened. And that's the one you're going to go digging for? No, it's around the same area. Around the same area. It's not connected in any other way. Okay. It's many, many years between them. Wow. Fascinating. Cross, what do you know now that you wish you would have known as a researcher 40 years ago getting into this field? I would love to understand that it's very scarce time you have to make interviews with people before they pass us away. I miss so many. Who? Who? Who's top of the list? Lots of people from the Ghost Rocket era, investigators and witnesses that I, oh, in the 1980s when I started to pursue that, they were gone many of them. Who's the number one person? It was a policeman up in the very north of Sweden who was very much doing research and met people all around North Sweden and made interviews. I missed him. That's really, really sad. I missed, of course, several of the witnesses around the lakes. It's cool that you chose a police officer and the witnesses, which I think is a testament to what you focus on, which are the core details of what happened in each case, whereas a lot of UFO researchers assume truth on this large scale and then they get into all these kind of pontificating metaphysical questions and so you're very obviously rigorous and so appreciate your time, man. Thank you for having us. Thank you, you see. Alchemist, did you enjoy that? If you want the full picture, head over to the American Alchemy magazine we just launched on Substack. That's where we deep dive into all sorts of crazy topics that we don't have time to fit into every video, with weekly articles exploring all of the strange forgotten and conspiratorial corners of space, history and high weirdness. So join up today at our free or paid tears on Substack. I am including the full link in the description of this video. Imagine setting your makeup. Then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new grippy setting mist from Maybelline New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours, with flexible all-day comfy grip. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue. Just plump, dewy hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new grippy setting mist from Maybelline New York. Maybe it's Maybelline.