The Man Behind the Sidemen’s $100 Million Global Empire | Jordan Schwarzenberger

They were the biggest thing in the UK, like serious celebrity status for a specific generation. I went to the SIPEN charity match in 2016, where they packed out 13,000 people sold out in like 2 minutes. SIPEN was just a bunch of kids who were making incredible amounts of money, had huge audiences, massive amounts of opportunity, but no strategy, no structure, no support. I would say they were culturally, enormous, corporately, not enormous. And we said, "Look, our proposition is, let's help you structure a business that can make sure that this thing works for 10 years, rather than 5 years." And we said, "Do you want to go for it?" And they said, "Yeah." And that's how it goes from this to like a totally another level, I think. He is an expert in converting content success into multi-million dollar empire by creating strategies that turn influence into long-term legacy. Scaling is painful and it is hard. And at the time, the combat, there wasn't a great economy. It was all quite scrappy in an entrepreneurial way. Our biggest job, his management, has been to make sure that they keep enjoying what they do by automating as much as possible, and taking away all of the boring business headaches that inevitably come with scale. If we do that, then they'll carry on and keep going. KSI these days is obviously one of the most successful entrepreneurs ever. Like, is that ever a problem within the group? Yeah, it's caused a lot of. Even if you don't know the Sidemen, Prime is objectively massive. Yeah, Prime has been incredibly successful. I mean, there's no two ways about it is. Probably, I would say, in human history, one of the fastest and most successful launches of any brand ever. So thinking about the Sidemen, thinking about Prime, and I suppose all that you've learned over the last decade, what is the recipe that other creators watching this can take away for their own product or service that they look? The biggest secret to launching a viral product is. Hi, everyone. Did you know that 85% of people who watch the podcast aren't even subscribed to the YouTube channel? Now, I don't like asking people to subscribe to this show. But honestly, it is the single greatest thing that you can do to help us grow our podcast. If you want us to keep bringing you these conversations, the kind of stuff that you simply cannot Google, then do us a favor. Hit the subscribe button and let me know in the comments who you want me to interview next. It helps us to grow the channel, reach more people and get the best guests in the world. So let's get into the show. Jordan, welcome to the show. Thank you very much for having me. I think that anyone who follows you nowadays will see this like incredible business that you have, that you're association with the Sidemen, et cetera. I would love to hear a little bit about the sort of early entrepreneur in you. I'd love to hear a little bit about the early years. Like, what did, you know, 17 or 18 year old you look like? Yeah, I would say it feels like a lifetime ago, but it was 10 years ago. 10 years ago. That's not a long time and it is a long time. A lot's happened in 10 years, but it's also a bit of a blank. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I was very fortunate. I went to a school, cooking after school and in gold screen. I was very lucky to be in an environment that was very creative. It's kind of known as being a bit of a, it was like a bit of a hippie school, but a little bit of a hippie school. Kind of everyone was, you know, we had like a tree house in a big field and there were some chickens around them. It was very open in that sense and what was good about it was creativity was quite a focus for the school and I was able to during my time there not be boxed down just into deep academic study. And I think, look, you know, for some kids, very needed for others, actually, like myself where I could be driven in academics, but also wanted to be quite creatively expressive and explore, like it was really good for me and, you know, we did things like learn how to mix and master school play audio and I did music tech as like an A level and it was just me in the class. It did all sorts of stuff and it was amazing time and during that period of time, I launched a bunch of projects, things that only I could have done really at school like that. I actually made a, made an album, made a music album at 14. Very cool. So I really saw that piff dot com back and it was like the mixtape place and did that. I was great and a lot of fun. I launched a film magazine called Loss VHS. So it was just like really into film at the time, had a couple of other like film nerds who we just like nerded out about chorus R and all sorts of random stuff. And we, um, yeah, came together to write a film magazine and then reached out to bunch of PR companies and tried to get access to screenings. How old are you? I was like, 16 or so. And we did and we got it and we got, yeah, it's like 16 year old being invited to screenings in, in less than square, like a word press block, like 200 people reading it or whatever was, um, was, was great, launched a clothing company called Black Mountain Clothing and lost in Schwarzenberg, which means man and a black man. I thought, oh, that's kind of cool. Maybe that would be good on a t-shirt. So I made t-shirts and sold them for a six full, like did a bunch of different projects and things during my time at school and my parents were always, always really supportive of it. And it just helped me, I think, learn, especially given my age at the time, like that was Facebook era. That was the first kids with mobile phones, you know, we were that initial guinea pig generation for social media. It was a great time. Dangerous time. There's some prickly things going on, but also for those who saw it as an opportunity to distribute, like I definitely did at the time. It was an amazing sort of open, if you will, for creativity, because you can go out. I have a thousand Facebook friends, I'm going to make this t-shirt and share it with my thousand Facebook friends and they were going to see it and hopefully buy it. And they didn't. Some people in the six form did. Well, you said where you, with the album, with the, you know, the clothing, et cetera. Were you making money? No. No. No, absolutely not. But they didn't, they didn't cost anything really. Right. They didn't have any money at the time, right? So like the clothing may be costs, I don't know, £100 of an order from some drop shipping place. And the Lost VTest, the magazine that was free on WordPress, the music album was done by myself on Logix. It was more just creative projects that I put out there without any real exploitation for money. But I was like 1670. Now the kids who were 16 and 17, like 20, 30 grand a month and like killing it, doing all sorts of stuff. But it was, you know, it was, it was V1 of that era, I think. But yeah, and then I think from there, you know, it really gave me a sense of you can just go and do stuff and you can just put stuff out there. And if you have an audience, even if it's a small one, you can make some level of a level of an impact. But more importantly, your creativity can be seen, right? And that was the stage at that point. It wasn't so much around commercialization, but it was more, you know, you can be seen and heard. And that was in a way enough, I think, at the time. So yeah, that was like me 1718, loving life and just trying stuff out, you know. He said your parents were very supportive, were your parents entrepreneurial at all? Not really at all, actually, they're both kind of more corporate, my dad definitely more corporate, like, you know, IT security class, okay, nerdy technology, my mum were in sort of social, social work. So not really entrepreneurial in that sense, but I think they saw in me someone who was always, I think he was right, I was always going for stuff and being quite, you know, if I had an idea, I wanted to do it and just get it done, which I think is sort of typified what I love. The decisions in my life that just been quite, I don't say impulsive, because not impulsive in a, as if that's a negative, but if something feels right, you go for it. That's been something that has driven me with every single thing that I've done. And that was definitely the case when I was young, young young, and then young in school and then sort of 17, 18s, I was getting older. And you got a place at King's College, but yes, didn't even go? I went, I went for 12 weeks, okay, for 12, very long, four weeks, then the introduction. Oh, it was horrible. It was horrible. I hated it. And we're not too far from King's College right now, it shutters down my spine, it wasn't that bad, it wasn't that bad. So I ended up getting to the end of school and if somebody who had this sort of creative pent up energy, I was like, I want it just to go and do stuff and get stuck in. But when you're 17, you have no idea what there is, right? So I've done a bit of work experience, did work experience at a production company called Way to Blue. I then was looking at, that was near 10 and then got to year 12, 13, and I was like, okay, I don't want to go to university. I just knew I didn't want to go. But when you're at school, when you're at that age, what else is there, especially at that time? Kids have TikTok and they have social to inspire them at such a higher level because there's so much volume of what's possible. So you're seeing a lot of kids not go and make better choices, I think. But for me, I was at that point where I was like, I don't want to go. But what else is there? I don't know what the industry is. I just know I have to do this because what else is there to do? So I applied for the most unserious, if you will, undegree degree, you could ever take with digital culture. Because I think quite well at my level. So I knew I could go and do something decent, but digital culture was the degree, which says everything. Because what is that? What does that mean? I've never heard that before. I don't know if it still exists. I wouldn't be surprised if they've got rid of it, but it was called digital culture. And there are any words that I've been working at vice over the last summer because I had this instinct that I wanted to speak to somebody in the real industry. And I managed to get a bunch of emails from vice and email 20 people and said, can I come and speak to somebody? Please, I saved me from the future of university. Two people said, yes, please come down. I then ended up going and then they gave me work experience over that summer. And I learned more from like a day doing work experience advice than I did at those 12 weeks at King's. But I got to the end of that summer and then had to start uni. And I remember the dichotomy of that right, digital culture, literally, vice at the time, the most digitally, I guess I was like, guys, I was like, guys, I was in that and then going to this degree, which was talking about Dungeons and Dragons and RPGs and all this crazy stuff, that I was like, I don't want to be here. This is terrible. And I always thought, if you had a card machine outside the door, a university, because the minds of the university is such a mess, if you had a card machine outside the door for university and every time you entered, you had to tap 40 pounds, would you say that that was money well spent? And for the vast majority of people, I think, no, if they even went, because of the student loan dynamic, which is I think is a real problem, generally speaking, that 40 pounds is never thought about. So you go to these things and then you cock it up and you go hang on a minute, I've just spent 300 pounds this week to talk about RPGs and Dungeons and Dragons and all this crazy stuff in this course called digital culture, which shouldn't even exist. And yeah, I'm working a voice at the same time and looking at that and going, I'm learning more than I could ever imagine. I'm working on incredible projects with big brands. I'm understanding the industry each and every day and I'm loving it. I want to do that, not that. So thankfully, I got to the Christmas party that year and the MD and no, the creative director and the associate creative director, we were all there. We were talking together and saying, I was saying to them, look, I love being here. I really want to be at someone like Vice, you know, I'm at uni. I hate it. And they were like, look, we'd love to have you join us if you want to have a full time. We just don't want your parents to come and pitch for us and try and like, you know, take us out. So the next day I went home and said to my parents, I was like, hey, like, you know, vice for me, full time job, become a creative there, I want to drop out uni and go and do that. And as a part of his ever, because they're very supportive, they were just like, yeah, that's what you want to do. Go for it. So literally that same day, that Saturday, because the party was on a Friday, that Saturday handed in all my stuff. When I'm Kings as quick as I could, I was like, get out of here, get out of here, like build off. And then, yeah, handed in the forms and then started a vice in 2016 January of Christmas over 12 weeks. What was vice like at the time? Because I think it's hard now to try and look at it as it was then because now there's like, there's so many different micro cultures everywhere and like, we see our own culture as opposed to the culture now. And it's like, but vice at the time was, you know, like an undercurrent of culture. Totally. Well, this is, I mean, this is something that I'm like a big believer in at the minute is this concept of the monoculture era and then the culture we live in today, which is micro cultures. And vice was very much the monoculture sort of king at the time in 2015. And I think you can go back over the last 15, 20 years and really pre-ticked on COVID, which I draw as the line in the sand. You sort of had a leader in because of the algorithm, because the algorithm and discovery algorithms, which changed everything, obviously made all about you, your choice. You get to decide your own world. What does that mean? It means everyone's living in their own bubble of media and culture. And therefore, there isn't really a culture. There isn't that connective tissue anymore, which is why we all feel so disconnected and live in these in these individual streams. And I think we will feel that. Whereas before, everyone talked about the same things, same references, same ideas and everyone followed things like vice, right? Vice was the, the zeitgeist, the concept of the zeitgeist is drastically shifted. And at the time, vice was, I think it was the coolest place in the world that I went in there. I remember seeing these offices in Neil Oldstreet and just my mind being blown by like the neon sign behind the behind the front desk, the palm trees, this like concrete floor, the music, like the energy there was so attractive to me in, especially as somebody who grew up in that monoculture, popular culture and lived and breathed it and really loved it. Being a vice was this amazing thing of like, wow, like this is where it's all happening. It really felt like that. And, you know, the talent there were incredible. Many of them have gone off to do unbelievable things. And you just felt that energy in the room. And I think that really, that left the media industry, I think, actually. And I think vice was that because curators and editorial publishers had a voice and the voice was what they wanted to get out there, right? So people were connected to the voice that was them being shared nowadays. It's hard to find that because of this shift where everyone's just chasing awareness and attention back then there was more of a captive audience around things. And you could really hone a sort of tone. So yeah, vice was amazing. And like the brands are working with them and they were doing incredible money. I mean, I think that at the time, they were valued at around four billion. That was at that right. That peaks. I was very lucky to be there for that peak. What a time. Downhill. And now they went bankrupt and then I think we're bought out for a very low amount of money. But at the peak, it was amazing, amazing to be there. No, still friends with a lot of people from that time. How long were you at vice? Because for those not aware, we talked about this a little bit before, like your 28. And so yeah, it's been a bit of a speedrun. Yeah, like two, three life biggest undresspition ever, like speedrun unbelievable. The 28 years old have done what you've done, you obviously started super early. Thank you. Yeah, I mean advice. Well, the work experience when I was, interestingly, was 10 years this weekend. So I would have started vice 10 years ago today doing work experience because I was, it was after my, my 18th birthday, which I had at Glastonbury in 2015, well, I'm pretty sure. So that was when I started work experience advice. Okay. And then did that for 12 weeks and then started there in January. But then I didn't stay there for too long because the managing director of the agency, again, you kind of understand what an agency is when you leave school and you go into business like vice, you know, you have no idea how the vice agency, yeah, the vice is agency. So the creative agency within vice called virtue, the managing director of that business, Ian, he basically took me for a walk around the block and was like, hey, he's a person who hired me because I, hey, you know, I've been offered a job to go to lab bible to build their agency. Do you want to come with me over there? He was like this, coil it all, walk round old street together. And I was like 17, 18 at the time, going, okay, well, why not? Like literally what have I got to lose again, where's the ball going? Vice magazine publisher 1.0, 2.0 was social publishers, Facebook publishers, especially at the time in lab bible, if anyone who grew up in that time will know it's, you know, more problematic era than predated when we came to then it's more growing up big business era, which it now has sort of been in for the last really seven, eight years. And we sort of came in to help help it grow up from a commercial perspective. So the goal was come from vice, bring all of the sort of DNA around the sort of business model around the, you know, the agency function, helping brands connect with the audience, do it in a way that's editorial native and bring that to lab bible, which at the time had a small commercial division, but really give it some structure. And so we went over there. I was a vice for another three months. I left in March, I think, or April, 2016, with the end. So we lifted up and went and then started the agency over over at lab bible. So as myself, Ian, I could well, I could James. And then yeah, we created this agency there called Joyride, which then grew. I think it's now doing like 25 million a year for them. Well, I think it's like it became the heart of their commercial operation and really helped it scale up and then, you know, a lab went public, I think, two years ago, 360 million valuation. They did incredibly well. But because of that agency, without that commercial function that came in, that's what made vice a four billion dollar company, right? It wasn't the ad revenue on site. It was the brands that sponsored and paid for collaborations, but also the brands that wanted vice's secret source for themselves on a white level basis. So those two wings really ran that business and then lab bible did the exact same thing. And we're interested in even going on to this later, doing the exact same thing for the side bend now. Yeah. Because there's literally nothing new under the sun, as I've also come to learn in my old age. Send me old age. You're 18, 19, you're at lab bible, how long were you at lab bible then? It was there for a year and a half. Okay. So yeah, definitely enough. Like literally, when I say the most talented people in the world, yeah, in the world, in the UK, we're all good, but not like in the UK at that time, we're at lab bible, right? So they had an unbelievable roster. If you were to put everyone up, it was one of those things. They put like, you see the PayPal guys in a very like not PayPal way, right? I wasn't that, but like in a very kind of a, yeah, like you look at that team of people and some of the best talent ever, people like Ian Moore, who was there, who was editorial director at lab bible when I was a vice, went over to lad Ian Richardson, I wouldn't count myself in there. But like Psalms and Newsy's gone off. He's gone on. Yeah. But gone on to start Paccante, went over to Burberry. You've had like Stephen May, who's like an unbelievable marketer, who was the CMO there. Yates who started only scrans, like you've had this amazing lineup of people. We've all gone on to do great things. I think lab bible at the time was this hotbed of like, again, where the bull's going. So it attracts people who go from where the bull was to where it's going and a lot of these people were at vice and they went to that. So I was there for a year and a half and we did some really cool stuff, you know, built the agency up to big size work with amazing brands, got to go to some amazing events, got to meet the side men actually for the first time while I was there, randomly at the side men charity actually in 2016. As the agency self that you were like, you were meeting them in a business context where you just ran into. So this was when Instagram stories just became a thing and I was running the Instagram stories on like activations for lab bible, right? So we would go to events. So they hosted the first side men charity match in 2016 and I went to cover it on Instagram stories. Like, literally when Instagram stories was first trains and a thing in the summer of 2016, if I remember correctly, and randomly then went there, went into the IP area and met them all. And this was like the first ever cyber game. They funny how the world works and also how YouTube immortalized this stuff right because you can go on that stream of the side men charity match and see me there with this like massive high tops sat in like the dugout like filming for Instagram stories and then obviously fast forward and we're doing what we're doing now together. So yeah, it's funny how things work. But yeah, it was every year and a half loved it amazing time, one lad of the year actually in my first year. It's like the employee lad of the year, with Sam who went on to start picanting. You're 18, 19 at the time and you're in an incredible company that's considered one of the coolest companies around like, is everyone taking you really seriously at 18? Like how are you, that's quite impressive that everyone is listening to you working with you at that age. Like, to be fair, people were incredibly open and collaborative and they were, I never felt young and I never felt look down on it. Maybe it's something around the changing culture that I think is expedited even more so now right where actually some of the best talent you'll find are some of the youngest I work with a kid recently as a kid, he was like 18, 19, one of the most talented people I've ever spoken to a man. That isn't weird anymore. And I think maybe that generation that I've been lucky enough to come in through business was the first which broke that hierarchy down because in reality, where audience moves younger, when you need to get younger audiences like building, working with your brand or supporting you, whatever it might be, you need that audience to be on your side and to be at the heart of your creative business, right? So the lab Bible, they understood that where more traditional publishers, more traditional media businesses would have said no, there's a hierarchy and we're curators and we're all the way up here as commissioners and directors and you guys are down there as the young kids. But actually now you have to be on trend, you have to be living and breathing it. So you need that replenishment of talent way more than you ever did. I was lucky enough to be in that. So it felt like I was super respected, never felt ever like I was, you know, looked down on for my age or anything actually. I felt like I felt very growing up. Well, I like a big boy there, it was great, I'm very intrigued, treated super fairly and also like the work was really what we're doing, we're working with amazing brands, giving amazing opportunities and I was always able just to go for it and just to do stuff. So I loved it. But yeah, they're for you and a half and then I got to the end of that and I was like, you know what, I didn't get to the end, but I got to the point where I was like, I know what I'm doing now. I'm 19. Well, I get it. I understand business. I'm going to start my own. So I did and start my own agency in August of 2017 and left lab Bible to go and do that. That agency was called Roundabout, which was at the time, the first Gen Z agency in the UK. I think there were others that came after, but that was the first one, saying it was the first one for sure because who else was that, for Gen Z, I was probably the youngest person in one of the more senior positions at the time in the industry to be able to then go and take that out and say, well, look, if you're a brand and you want to connect with me, my audience, my generation, I know this better than anyone in theory because I am that generation. That was always what I created off. So it created Roundabout to do that and to help brands plug into culture and had a lot of fun doing that business, work with Boiler Room, MTV, how many could dug out at the time, Big Football publisher worked with James Grant, which became why I'm you. So when I worked with James Grant, the whole brief was right. You are coming from a publishing world, your Gen Z, come and help our talent to future proof themselves and make them more relevant, so pretty strategies for them. So I think we were given three talent at the time, three people, Rylin, Regiates and Frank Lampard is the three. Wow. And there's myself, go call Michael and Stefan, who had been apprentices with me at LabBall who came over. They're also part time at university. And like Michael's like the biggest, he is the biggest Chelsea fan in the world. And I remember going into this pitch with Frank Lampard presenting his strategy, Michael's there, like shaking like, this is my dream, like what the hell, this is Frank Lampard. But we had a lot of value to add because as talent managers, their whole job was how do we strategically help Frank Lampard to stay ahead of the curve? And they need the 19, 2021 award in the room because they understand what's coming. So we did that. Loved it. And a light ball clicked in for me when I was working with James Grant, which was that the future of media really is talent driven. That has to be the way because you look at this business here, James Grant. And you had 300 talent, if you will, or celebrities ranging from your Anton Dex to your Steve Boehre keys, your Frank Lampard to the world, Holly Willoughby's, Philips Gofil, can't say that now, but Philips Gofil, et cetera, and you look at them and you say your socials, your brand presence online is bigger than lab bibles if you were to put everyone together. You have in this business, and it's not as simple as that, but in my mind at the time, you have in this business a publisher. Think of it like a publisher with verticals. And each division has media that can be vertical, I sport music entertainment. The same thinking of lab bibles, which took the same thinking from vice, which took the same thinking from whoever, and apply that to talent. And then you have a business that can work with brands at much higher level. You have media value that you can actually extract for the first time, because traditional talent in that world, they're very used to doing pay for play on TV, show up on this morning or show up on Saturday night takeaway, that's it. But treat them like publishers and you'll unlock a huge amount of value for them. And that was my mindset. But then also bringing creators and talent who can be on the front foot of culture, but also have media value within their very DNA, because most traditional talent don't. And maybe to that traditional talent blew up on social because they were big on TV, but that's changing now and actually means these are being built natively online. So firstly, I did there was what's happened, Milya Demoldenberg actually, because I'd met her lab Bible, we'd met a lab Bible, and Milya got them while they're met very briefly, but the whole meeting at Ladd was to try and bring chicken shop day into lab Bible. So to try and like buy it, like 25 grand or something, obviously she said no very good decision. We ended up, I end up, that was the first thing I did because she was one of very few people at in the culture who was creating content independently, had a format, had a show, but also was clearly on a trajectory in my mind that was just growth is like, okay, do this again again, again, and be consistent at it. And you'll, she'll win it was, it was clear as day. So I messaged her was I said, look, I'm over here now. We're trying to build a more future proofed roster, you're somebody who wants to get more into traditional into TV, build out brand partnerships and really scale out. Do you want to have a conversation? She said, yeah, we had a pitch and I worked out strategy presented to her and she she liked the vision and she came in and she was there for I think seven years or something eight years. I always say no surprise, she had the best time in her career since I've left without a doubt over the last years, definitely no good instance, but no, she's obviously done. She's become a global superstar and his incredible was a talent and as a person, but I was the first, I did because again, it was this, it was this sense of creators are the future of talent, who are really the future of media, and if you can incubate support and help creators who are media brands to elevate and to not just try and become like a traditional celebrity, but to become a media brand in a much bigger way, then you could unlock huge amounts of value and they can just go on to incredible things. So yeah, people at her and then over four years did some really cool stuff like, you know, we sold the company private equity for like 300 million, which was amazing. I was myself Neil the CEO head of MNA and then the head of North America in a room that they asked me to be like, I guess that the creative rep for the business, which is like the best learning experience ever, like shopping that to private equity at 19 years old, 20 years older, like me being like, hey, this is what we're going to do with David Williams or whatever it is. But it was an amazing experience that alone because it was like, right, how do you actually get to value as a company? How do you get to that level of scale? What do they, what questions do they ask? What do these, these private equity houses want? What do they even see as good and successful and to be in that pitch that was like, you know, a cup of sweaty, two sweaty weeks in May for this time, I think as well, like four years ago. Sorry, nine, nine years ago, nine years ago now, nine, eight years ago, a long time ago. And it was an amazing experience that and then we, you know, bought in clients like Minutuala, Woody and Clionie, Jack Harry's, Zach and Jay, like, it made, it was like so much fun and they gave me so much freedom to bring people in to support the divisions and I'll chief care of officer there like 20. So it was this thing of against your point, how do you get taken seriously by a room full of much older people and, you know, at the beginning, definitely, like, I definitely didn't play it right because I came in, I guess, quite confidently. I said, 'cause I felt like I had to pretend 19 year old man, I mean, that's your old man. I'm a big boy. So that had to come in and pretend to be the guy and they were so nice and very, very kind about it, but clearly it robbed a couple of people the wrong way. As of course, now I look back, prefrontal cortex is kicked in. I'm like, what the hell would that have looked like being 20 coming in and use these kids for you need that energy as well, you know, like, amazing things happen in the time that you have that energy. For sure, but it's like, now at the back, I'm like, if that was happened to me, I'd tell the kid to get out my face, like, what are you telling me about anything? But no, and Mary, who's a CEO there now, she had, like, an amazing, a moment with me in my first ever appraiser, where I got my first ever negative feedback in my career, which was you're robbing people out the wrong way, like, basically, you don't need to sort of sprint ahead and come up, you're coming up a bit arrogantly, slow down, bring people with you. Remember that forever. 'Cause it's so true, like, slow down your job. The more senior you get is to bring others up. It's not just to steamroll ahead and forget everyone else. So you got this negative feedback and you thought, "Sod it, I'm leaving, I'm a demon." Yeah. No, well, no. So that was, like, at the very beginning, and it was so transformational for me, because it changed my whole approach to business to people, to diplomacy, to how you manage in organizations of 300 people plus, like, to what, how you actually stack to yourself and that it's not about posturing, it's about listening, helping, supporting, leading from behind, not always in front, and just being a support for people that actually, yeah, the more senior you are, I was chief care officer, C-suite, that business, in the center of all these different divisions, and they all use me as resource. So how do you help and be additive to those divisions? And that's another dynamic, it's like the dynamic between being in the central team, being in the divisions. These things, like, who knows the stuff until you're in it, but then when you're in it, you realize, oh, like, no, you're not just supposed to go off and do all this, that you have to bring everyone on the journey all the time, and your job really is pitching and selling into people and helping people within the company to get to your vision. Because if you can't do that, you're going to lose them. And so your job is around galvanizing teams, and that's a totally different mindset when you're used to just going off. For these days, I get to the point where, you know, me and my father first kid, I was 21 at the time, and just looking at the sort of the time drain of, again, senior positions in big companies require a lot of time, and lots of overtime, you're working, working, working, and you don't have control over your time because your time is paid for essentially by the company. So that was felt when I was doing things like, you know, eight board meetings a month, I was saying to you before, two hours each. And I've got a baby and my wife's like, we're just getting to terms with grips with that. And then you've got, you know, the pressures of just like corporate culture at senior level where your time's just taken away from you. And then also the trenches of just the first baby and like, what is going on? You're just like, ah, it's crazy. And I felt at that time, definitely a sense of like, I seed was planted that I knew that if something could come up, I'd probably be ready to move on now. I also felt like, why am I, I kind of got so much from it, and it felt like my business school. I looked at it and I think people more people should look at employment as business school hopefully. Look at it as your education, learn and get paid is the best combination rather than paid to learn from people who aren't even in it, learn within a company and make strategic moves to different companies. You can learn the lay of the land, but don't see it as a way you're going to make, you know, tons of money or you're going to do incredibly welcome actually. No, that's your, your education to then go and do something yourself. And I think it's a better, better use your time than university personally. But I got to the point where that seed was planted. And I said, look, if an opportunity came up, I'd be taking it, I think, and not to work for someone else, but to do something myself, and I managed to meet two other people. So Aaron, who's the business manager, was a business manager, why am you? He looked after people like Sarah Larson, and he looked after a lot of running stone stuff, and a bunch of TikTokers. So he just been at that cost of TikTok when it became TikTok from musically, and he had this, this creator called Holly, 70 million followers at the time, huge. So he went off to manage her and take his only, which was amazing. So I met him with friends and our friends, obviously, to the days of co-founder of Arcade. And we, I sort of supported him from afar, and then he ended up meeting someone called Sam, who's our third co-founder in Arcade, and Sam is amazing, very under, like he wouldn't say this about himself, but he's like, he's been way ahead of the curve for a very long time. Sam has been the YouTuber accountant, so to speak for probably about 12 years, if not longer. So he, his best friend at school was Marcus Butler, forget that right, but he was obviously a big YouTuber. And was at the time one of that brick crew that really rose. So he needed an accountant, and Sam was his friend, and was studying for a county. So I said, oh, do you want to be in my accountant? He said, yeah, cool. And from there, he then grew this roster, every single YouTuber in the country. So he looks after, I mean, with this company now, Starbucks, which is a within corporate a box, looks after 300, 400 creators, right? And it's just, it's a word of mouth. It's, oh, huge need. Sam, good, Sam, good, Sam. So he was always that guy. From when he was, I mean, he's only 32, I think, 31, perfect, three, maybe. So he's always, he's not old, but he's always been plugged in. So for the last 13 years, he's just been that guy. And so from there, he met the side menu, you know, looks after the more individually before they were the group, and then the group, you know, once they formed properly in 2013. And so he'd always seen this opportunity for them, and also for the space that there was this total lack of infrastructure supporting these creators who were making incredible amounts of money, had huge audiences, massive amounts of opportunity, but no strategy, no structure, no team, no support. And so he'd seen that, and that was a supply and in him, and he had met Aaron, and then Aaron said, oh, we need to speak to Jordan. So we all came together. This is in 2020. So Kobe was just kicking off, but we're having loads of fun on Zoom together. So didn't matter. And, and we ended up jumping on Zoom and going, you know what, like, this is real opportunity for the side bend specifically. And why don't we speak to them, see what they say? We put together strategy, which was my, like, the thing that I've been churning out, they are the day at YMU. I had it just the autopilot of how to make a good strategy, because really the principles for any talent are the same in terms of what they can do. It's just what for what person, but the principles are the same. The opportunities really are quite clear. And I had 15 things in there around what the side bend should be doing. And we said, look, guys, jump to Zoom, do you want to, do you want to go for it? And they said, yeah. And so hand in my notice, which was one month, tiny notice, because they had, they forgot to change it. Thank you very much. We went out of there in April 1st and started okay, then, and then, yes, it's been obviously a lot of fun. So what stage were the side bend out of the time? There's obviously they had their individual stuff in them together, like, they were successful at the time, like, give us a bit of context, because obviously now to everyone, they just seem enormous. Yeah. And look, they were, I mean, I think, I would say they were culturally, enormous, corporately, not enormous. So culturally, at the time, I mean, I went into the charity match in 2016 with stuff goes, but this is when I was a lab Bible, and they were, you know, they packed out 13,000 people, one stand, that's all they were given by the stadium, because imagine, again, a bunch of kids come to them being like, oh, can we rent out St. Mary Stadium for a football match? There were a bunch of YouTubers, like, obviously they're going to say, no, like, what do you think you're doing? You're going to have problems and whatever else. And actually, they did have problems because they had a pitch invasion at the end of the game, which caused a few problems down the line, actually, but they were only given 13,000, they've given one stand, sold out in like two minutes or something, right? And so they had this impact, and I'd go and up with this impact, because I'm, you know, I've been on YouTube in a fan of YouTube for a long time, so I understood this space, and we'd grown up with it, right? So you'd seen the impact you've seen the cultural resonance. This is what kids were talking about. This is what me and my friends were, were invested in, right? YouTubers, YouTubers are thing all the way through school. So it was all, of course, these guys are massive, but then when you really saw it and you dug under the hood and you said, you go, wow, okay, they have, I think at the time, nine, 10 million subscribers walked down any street in London, got mobbed off first meeting with them. And these offices were actually in the, in Altenette, that bigger thing, in Tottenham, Corolla, I was doing some work with them and we used their office for a nice picture. And like we walked to Chaconis for a pizza, right? Around the street and literally like two things happened. As we were walking, I think it was like four of us, like myself, Josh, Simon, and maybe Vic and Aaron. We walked down the street and on the way from like, out in it to Chaconis, like a five minute walk, probably mobbed about six times, right? And then we get into Chaconis. And then as we'll sat there, and then just try and have a nice pizza. Every single table in Chaconis turns around, oh my God, that's a cyber and you have people stopping in the street and you'll just go, what the heck is this insane? Like serious celebrity status for a specific generation, which you either understand and you're in it, or you just don't get it. And this was in 2021, right? And it's even, it's got obviously even bigger now. But at the time, they were huge. They were the biggest thing, they are the biggest thing still, but they were the biggest thing in the UK without a doubt. So for us to come in, it was more, okay, you have this immense amount of, you know, impact and audience and engagement. But our proposition is, let's help you never be reliant on a brand deal again. Let's help you build some long term legacy and value from a business perspective. Let's create some independence from you and an ad sense as a revenue stream, because that's your sole revenue stream pretty much apart from a few brand deals. And let's help you structure a business that can make sure that this thing works for 10 years, rather than five years or three years. And crucially though, it was building owned income streams rather than relying on brands. That was always the pitch. Not going to actually do the agency stuff, we're going to rely on building your own brand. So that's why the focus has been on, on sort of own brand building. And yeah, but in terms of size, massive. But again, it was massive in one sense, but they had one employee, one person on payroll. Between them. Yeah. As a group, they had Tanya. Bless Tanya. She was doing a lot. And she still is. She runs our cyber and Sunday production, but it was just Tanya at the time, one person. And so in terms of moving them from, I suppose the sort of ad sense, you know, brand deal market to where they are now, what was the strategy at the time? Like we're going to build our own assets, we're going to build our own businesses. Like where were you at the time? Because obviously now that I mean, they're involved in so much stuff. Yeah. But at that moment in time, how are you thinking about their businesses? So the time it was, and this wasn't maybe the most scientific way of doing it, but it was, what do you love? And what do you want? What would you love to have? And remember, this is post-covid. So there's a lot of energy. And the world is ready. They're like, we ever want to get back out there. There's this like sense of confidence. Like people have been trapped indoors for a year pretty much. So there was this real energy, I think, around industry, obviously a lot of companies raised a ton of money in 2021. Most of them have collapsed. There was this sense of, I would say everyone was in a bit of a collective daydream for 2021. And everything that happened in that year should kind of be looked at cynically, because it was all a bit weird and fake. Like everything was just a bit odd. We're all a bit hungover, I think, from COVID. And I think we were a little bit too. But we'd go in and say, okay. You click your fingers. What would you love? And I think it would already come up that they'd wanted a restaurant, just that'd be a cool thing. And an alcohol brand, that would also be a cool thing. And also at the time, they were more, you know, they were younger, going out, partying. We'd love to have our own alcohol in an ice bucket, in tape or something. As a concept, just like, that would be really cool. And a lot of it was like, on vibes, it was like, that would be cool. So we had this system where in the deck, having known some of that, we presented the 15 ideas, and we had a voting system, which was set up by Josh, I think, who runs all of the kind of automation in the systems for them as a seven. And it was a great spreadsheet, which had all their names and had a number at the end. And it ranked them one to 10. So each of them, in a line down here, the 15 things, and on the end, it was a number that pumped out. And I think 60 was the pass line, anything below 60 didn't get the four, three majority that you need. It needs a four majority in a group of seven, right? So, but it pumped out based on, based on, you know, how much they actually loved the idea. It was a pass mark. Something like that. Great way of doing it, because then it's very simple. It's like, okay, they want to do this stuff, they don't want to do this stuff, but it's all done to the vote. And we've still got that spreadsheet somewhere. And it's awesome to have. It's awesome to have. They're young. And so to an extent, like with talent, they kind of have to love it, or they just probably won't do it. Totally. So it wasn't a sense of right. You guys should do this thing. And this thing, it was more okay. These are the things that we think could really work. What do you want to do? What gets you fired up off about them? And on that list, you look down and now we've done most of those things, interestingly, pretty much the right order. So restaurant was one, alcohol brand was another, trading cards was one, a membership club was another, podcast was one, VC Farm was also on there, I think, pretty sure, and a few other things. But you look down at this, it's like, most of those things have actually been done now. And it was all driven by that sense of they're going to vote on it. That gives us a mandate. And then we're going to just find a way to make it work. And at the time, the comeback, we didn't really have that much of a network. I doubt a bit of a network, but no, but near as much as now. So we were just like, you know, cold emailing, I'm just reaching out to people. There wasn't a creator, a creator economy infrastructure, right? I know one even saw it as a thing. So you're trying to convince distilleries in Belfast to like have a call about a white label run with the side men. And it's like, you know, this is a totally different world to the world we're in today. But it was all quite scrappy in an entrepreneurial way. We've got the mandate. We're going to do a membership club. We're going to do an alcohol brand. And we're going to do a restaurant. And we're going to just find a way to make it work. And when you think about the group now, like they've had lots of different businesses varying successes, are they individual business people now? Are they group, you know, are they all sort of co-founders and shareholders of the same stuff? Like, do you know what their worth is a group? Like it's all fascinating now that you see that so successful. And I'm interested in what has worked and what hasn't worked for them as well. So firstly, are they entrepreneurs in their own right? Yes, in different ways. I mean, they're all the cyber projects are all done collectively, right? So there's just to give a sense of the business and the scope. You've got cyber entertainment, which within it has side plus, which also has cyber production. So that's within cyber entertainment. Cyber productions is the vehicle for Netflix and inside and any further productions that happen on that front. And then side plus is the membership club that's £6.99 a month or £6.99 a year. And that's a big membership base been growing now for three nearly four years. And then, of course, the channel content, which is the end of everything. So main channel, more cyber men reacts all on YouTube and then all the social channels as well. So like a huge operation, there's 50 people in that team run by Victo's Imagine Director of that business. He's incredible. He then have the consumer brand. So ex-ex-volca, sides and best ex-ex-volca, rock brand, you know, one of the biggest sellers in weather spoons, big up weather spoons, sides, which is the restaurant chain, which just launched in Singapore, had like 1,500 people in the queue in Singapore. So I'm in one even there. It's like crazy thing for that brand and, you know, it's got seven stores in the UK. We've got a big pipeline of stores, think about 20 or so that confirm that are coming. We've had some ups and downs. I mean, restaurants are tricky business, tricky and expensive businesses. So, you know, ups and downs was going to say when you said restaurant, the start. I was like, I don't know. We all get into the worst business, like the world. I couldn't name a worst business. No, you couldn't name a trio of worst businesses, alcohol and restaurants. I had Tom Kerage on the show recently, the other famous chef. And he obviously is super famous, Michelin star. He's got like six sites and he's like, oh man, he was like, it's not the business you want to do. No, no. Alcohol for different reasons. Alcohol and restaurants are the two worst businesses in the world. And they're with the two we chose. So, look, we've learnt a lot. Yeah, yeah. We've learnt a lot, lots of ups and downs. But with sides, you know, we've got an amazing partner with that, who, you know, here are brands. They're behind German on the Cabab, Chopper Luna Island, probably they understand this space very well. And you know, I think we're in very safe hands with sides with Volker, with, you know, with United, who are part of the same sort of group, but United, you know, they're the biggest wholesaler in Scotland and incredible. Look, there are lots of ups and downs with all of those businesses. I think the biggest thing I would say though for any creator, and I say this a lot, for any creator who wants to launch brands, stick with your strengths or find the best of the best partner who has the deepest pockets possible to go at it with you. Because the expense of these businesses, thankfully, let the Simon hadn't paid to fund these businesses. You have a trade, right? You have a JV partner who invests and funds and then the Simon, you know, build the brand, marketing, creative development products, etc. But there's a nice line there. But the expense that has to go into making brands for creators, especially because retailers, we haven't even talked about the serial brand, but retailers and, you know, property developers etc. They look at your numbers and they expect a certain amount. And that certain amount has to be satisfied by rate of sale, but it also has to be supported at a very high level, especially in retail. So you get this trap where, you know, you have a brand that goes into retail like best to an extent, which requires support because in order to produce the quantities you need in order to support the retailers, which is really how they make their money, which is on media, right? And sponsored not on products. So that's another thing you learn. Retailers don't make money on product. Retailers make money on the advertising around the product. So it's all a gateway in to get brands to support them with retail media. And that's why retail media is becoming this huge thing because they go and wait a minute. They have all these brands. And effectively, they hold the keys to the brand's success. So they go, well, if you don't spend X, we're not doing this or you need to support it with this amount of extra value. And that's how they make the money. By the way, you learn this stuff as you dig into it, same with, you know, with shopping centers and so on, like you're in an expectation battle there because you've got a big audience to the expect huge numbers, which you can deliver on. But then how do you support it when those numbers inevitably go because everything becomes normal at some point? And then it's about how the scale and the momentum of the business can be funded because it requires a lot of money to fund it. So you have, that's the biggest advice because most creators do not have the money to fund what these businesses need to be really successful and they just require a lot of money. So that's just a slight aside. I always think what was my entry point to the sidemen, because I never got more up in the hype. I think I'm maybe a tiny bit older than the ordinary consumer. However, I got into watching Vic on Call of Duty and I didn't even know he was part of the sidemen. I just watched him and thought he was just epic and really funny and whatever. And then sort of like entered into the sphere of like learning about them and so forth. They've definitely had like individually greater success than each other. Like KSI these days is obviously like, I don't know, one of the most famous people ever, one of the most successful entrepreneurs ever. Like is that ever a problem within the group? No, I think, you know, they success is relative. And for someone like, for example, Harry, he had, I think it still does 60 million subscribers on his main channel, some like that. And he didn't, he didn't want to do it. He didn't want to become that guy. He has a different standard of success. So success isn't just about, you know, scale and growth and being more corporate and having more sort of entrepreneurial endeavors for him. It's more about being able to enjoy many videos with his friends, living the life he wants to live for some of the others is different. Right. So everyone has their own subjective view, which is also the dynamic of a seven. Everyone's very different terms of lifestyle and what they want. And so the group has to be that steady ship that kind of holds everyone together, but it doesn't place undue pressure on anybody. And I would always say our biggest job as management has been to make sure that they keep enjoying what they do, enjoying making content by automating as much as possible and taking away all of the boring business headaches that inevitably come with scale. So we stomach the pain of scale and they don't feel it. But that has to be the end goal. It's a very human thing. And it's not about more money or it's not about more stuff. It's about making sure that they're providing value to their fans and their scaling and growing, but they're also not feeling that pain because there's pain to scale as you'll know, right? Scaling is painful and it is hard and it requires a change and, you know, in terms of the way the approach business is such a thing, but they don't feel any of that. So protected. No. But that means that they can have their own individual view of what success looks like in for someone like JJ wants to do, Britain's got talent or they want, you know, he wants to do his boxing or his music, anything he's doing over their prime. He can do all of that. Harry can do the opposite. Not do any of that stuff and, you know, live his life. Vic can do what he wants to do, DJing now, you know, he's launched an incredibly successful DJ career already over the last couple of years, launched his brand Circular, which we helped him with, which is the sunglasses brand, like he's really got his own stuff going on over there. Simon's making incredible YouTube videos, so doing his thing. Josh Toby, the same with the clothing brands, internet-made and ill vision, Ethan, you know, he's got his got all of his daughter and faith. So he's living again, a different life. He's a parent. Simon's about to become a parent. So you know, there's like, there's all these different variables and dynamics within the group that mean that, you know, individual successes about what they get in their own lives for their own families and their own pursuits whilst the group continues as it is. So it doesn't cause this like tension point where, oh, he's really successful over there doing his thing because it's like, well, I don't actually want that necessarily. What's it been like with prime because from the outside, like even if you don't know the Simon, even if you don't know any of this stuff, like a prime is objectively massive. And so what's that been like as a, that must be the biggest breakthrough. The group, you know, and well, you know, has had, I mean, that we weren't, we weren't involved in prime, prime's JJ separate individual team and prime has been like the most incredible thing to watch and study as somebody who is also, you know, all of us are working on brands ourselves in retail doing all, you know, all sorts of stuff in the space and it's unlocked so many doors in that sense, right? Because it gave a lot of confidence. And I think, yeah, prime's been, been incredibly successful. I mean, there's no two ways about it is being probably I would say in, in human history, one of the fastest and most successful launches of any brand ever without a doubt. And you can look at the numbers were and are incredible. So huge respect to that. I think no one can knock it for that. And I think, yeah, it's caused a lot of confidence amongst retailers and amongst people in the space because it's given a sense of what's possible. Yeah. So that can also, the other thing, the challenge, the other flip that played to that is it can distort expectation. And the story of Logan and JJ is like a very unique story. And that story created a momentum that then retailers and people you aren't necessarily within this generational space, don't necessarily understand that isn't just, that's not normal. Like, yeah. Yes, I look at the, you know, the background of that, the fight they had, the beat like everything built up to that in such a beautiful way. And I was very clever to bring those stories together because I think if either of them tried to do it individually, the story wouldn't be there. The story carried the brand and I think really launched the brand into an amazing way. So I think, yeah, it's just that's your, that's the flip side. Expectations can be a little bit higher and unrealistic based on that story and applying it to everything else. So that's not, that's not right. So thinking about the, the side man thinking about prime and I suppose all that you've learned over the last decade, like what is the secret to launching a viral product? Like what is the, what is the recipe that other creators watching this can take away for their own product or service that they launched? Totally. So I would say the biggest secret to launching a viral product is to make sure that you've got a great story and that the content is in the DNA of the product and the brand itself. The biggest thing I've personally seen is a thing that we're putting into all the stuff we're doing and we have them for a bit now is like, merch doesn't work anymore. So the concept of merch, people buying into fandom is gone because of this concept really isn't been saying of the monoculture dying, like fandom doesn't really exist in the same way because fandom in a large, in a big way was around that having that kind of a unity with others who also share that same fandom. So we're wearing clothes and representing ourselves to others who also understand the reference point. But when culture so divided and you wear a shirt in the street to represent your favorite artist, but people might not have any clue of the who that artist is. And there's no touch point to that with anybody else because everything's so, I guess, micro stream now. It means that merch as a concept doesn't really work anymore. When we memes have died, memes don't work anymore, think about memes, memes are dead. Why memes dead? Because there's no monoculture. One for another, another day. But I think you need to think about about culture being more about, how do you, I guess, how do you intercept as many people as possible in their micro streams of content and their little bubbles? And you do that through a great story and high volume content that cuts through and entertains. And the entertainment factor is the thing that's going to get people looking and that has to be done in the DNA of the brand, which is why funny brands, silly brands, brands that have a personality to them, think of a doctor's watch or think of a liquid death over the last couple of years, too big breakthroughs from America. Why have they done so well and did they, why do they do so also quickly? It's because they were funny and entertaining and they had content and virality baked into their DNA storytelling in their DNA. So I think that for me is like the absolute kids. I make the brand in and of itself content. Everything is content. Think of every element of the brand is a story and is something which can go viral and be shared and be entertaining. Remember as well, people go to social media for relief. It's the biggest thing we forget, right? Especially when you're more of an entrepreneur or creator, you're in the bit, it's like people don't go here to be lectured, they go here to feel something, they go here to be entertained. And I think people a lot of the time forget the entertainment is predominantly why people are scrolling on TikTok for hours every day before bed. They don't want to hear some stuffy product tell you about how great they are, they want to be entertained. So make content that entertains and make the brand at very core and entertaining. And I suppose one of the concepts I find very fascinating with creators is how they can start creating their own intellectual property. And I think that has a lot to do with products, but it has a lot to do with their own stream of content. And you said something at the start, which is like everything's a copy of a copy, bearing that in mind. How does someone nowadays create their own intellectual property? In a way, it's easier to build brand than ever in a way it's also harder than they never write. Because in one sense, you have access to distribution more than ever before. You can reach audience. On the other hand, there's so much noise and saturation that building anything of any value and weight is really difficult. And I think that the only way that you can build IP and really brand that is at the heart of that IP is through consistency and compounding of connection over time. You need to be so consistent and compound and compounded and the conversion rates of everything are as low as they've ever been. Why? Because people can see through the noise. There's so much noise and so much saturation that people, it takes a lot more to get somebody to actually go into your world. So you have to show up again and again and again and again, you have to do that in a way that's entertaining and cups through. So I think for anyone to build IP, it's have, you know, a real sense of like tonality, have a strong clear brand stand for something that is maybe in a, in a previous year, it would have been seen as niche, but actually niche down in a way that's entertaining and brilliant that can then become mass because mass even as a concept, I think, is strained. I don't know if there is a mass anymore, there's a really a mainstream anymore. I would argue we're not a big one. It's much more than it ever was. So you need to be very defined. Maybe that's the key. Defined and compound yourself and do it in a way that has like that nerds out about what works on social, nerding out about content is so important. You need to know what's happening today on social needs and what's happening tomorrow. You need to be constantly adapting your content to what's working now because it changes every single day. And I think if you can take a great story, great brand with a strong, defined personality and have a great person who somebody can connect to connect you with that and you can pound it over time with a smart, you know, smart brain around social that's always been to learn and change and adapt that over time, I think will work, but that is a, that requires a lot of different variables and a mindset that a lot of people don't have is like, well, you put one piece of content out. Oh, no one cared. It's a surprise surprise. Okay. Well, I'm going to try a thousand more. Try a thousand more. It's funny. You teach established business owners how to make content and recently for the first time ever, I've been teaching creators how to build businesses and it's such a different skill set. Like, I actually think that both those worlds could learn so much from each other. You should make a bridge in the middle. Yeah. Busy enough. But that's, but you're right. It's like, we say all the time, you know, the brands will win, we'll think like creators, the creators will win, we'll think like brands. Totally. And it's the meaning of the middle of this, the one. I'm so fascinated by those two things and like I've seen you talk about like examples like the hot tour girl, like the rise of that platform for her was absurd, like the speed and growth of that was absurd. And then the management of that talent, as it were, was the worst I've ever seen. Yeah. In terms of like product choice completely destroyed. What was like, it wasn't mean, which to cut through at that level, it's crazy. Yeah. I choose to monetize the way that they did was appalling. The, yeah, I mean, the great example of, you know, but, but I think also it's hard, right? Because it was a meme in a sense, but it was actually a viral video that they just got shared a tons of, tons of times and became a mini, a mini meme in this, in the world that's lost its, it's made sure, but it was, it became a moment, right? But the problem is with that and the hard thing is that you can get totally stuck in, in you becoming a meme. And I think it's very difficult to know because she's not, I don't think from what I understand somebody who, you know, she didn't expect any of that. So when you're not expecting it, and this is why virality can be such a curse, when you're never expecting, we're not expecting to go viral, when you're not expecting something to, you know, blow up at all. And now your life has changed. You're pushing to this limelight around something that's not great. And you probably don't want to be associated with that thing. How do you then dig in, dig into that, right? How do you, how do you even build something in it? And I think it's, it's very difficult. You're there really trying to squeeze as much money as you can out of that situation. But then that's going to come at the cost of longevity. So then you have something like the hawk to a hawk to a coin or whatever it was, which obviously like crashed and burned, you know, scammed a lot of people. And something like that where you go, okay, like that's almost the inevitability of like you're in America, you're in a culture, which is, you know, quite a, what's the word, passionate about making money and making money very quickly and taking your opportunity and there's more of that entrepreneurial spirit. If you don't have people trying to build something, but then also, what can you build around hawk to a, so the fact they've kind of squeezed the podcast out of this. And the fact they've, like I don't, I think yes bad management, but also I don't know what I would have done. Yeah. I mean, where'd you hang your hat on that? Where'd you hang your hat on that? Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like to get even some level of IP and actually to build talk tour, which yes became silly in a meme. And obviously became a whole thing. Well, I see memes in it. But it became a trend. I'd say more, but it's like to build talk tour out of that meme and to have that become like one of the top podcasts in the world, which it was is actually, I think, pretty successful and actually quite impressive. But where'd you go from there? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. You talk a lot about creator entrepreneurs as like a new, a new trend. So firstly, what is that? Like how do you define that? And who are you looking at and saying they get it, they're nailing it, you know, people should follow these people. It's like a creator entrepreneur. I would define as really the next era of simply entrepreneurs. It's like when we talk about the creator economy, there's such thing as a creator economy. It's just the economy. It just is. So I think it's these outdated terms that sort of separate this new and old world when actually the new world is just the world, right? Everyone's playing the same game. Every single industry is trying to gain attention, leveraging social and content and storytelling online. So everyone, whether you are, you know, the CEO of Salesforce is one of the biggest users on LinkedIn all the way through to, you know, a music artist signed at a label all the way through to a football. You're all playing the same game of content creation and you were all created. Everyone is a creator. He recently came out on a podcast and was like, you know, music artists are now social media influencers and creators. That's the switch and labels have been pushing that for a while because they know that that's the way they can resonate and break out. But it's, it's more apparent than ever that everyone's been the same game. And with creator entrepreneurs, I would just say entrepreneurs of tomorrow, entrepreneurs of today, those are doing the best. No surprise. They're the best storytellers. They're the best at building a personal brand. They're the best at making content. Some of them like yourself. If I say who's looked at you, you know, you're incredible at this, right? You've been doing this so well for so long. And you've really nailed the, I mean, that essentially watching your own personal journey is a fan of everything you do because you've become a creator. It seems like from the outside, that's so big now. Yeah. That is, that is like, that's your business, really. And the business that you've built, all the businesses you built underneath that have sort of spun off your audience and the leverage that you've created at scale. And that's the goal. Audience is gold of today and you have that in abundance and therefore you're able to build incredible value for your audience, but also make incredible businesses out of it, right? So that's the future, right? More than anything else. And I think, you know, we look at some of the kids today, come up in the tech scene in San Francisco. I don't know if you're following some of those kids. Amazing things, right? And it's like, oh my goodness. Like they are so dialed into content and storytelling and making videos and going, right? Really? Yeah. Yeah. About 50 million from a 16z from really like a tweet. It's funny. You asked the future. You're right. Like, I would say these days, a lot of people, a lot of people wouldn't even know the businesses I've built historically. You know, I've been, I've been an entrepreneur for 16 years. So started at 16, have built four decent sized businesses and buy that like multiple hundreds of people businesses. And yet people would be like, you know, he's the creator. I didn't know that you co-founded lotty for most of the time that I've known about you. I didn't know. Because then also you don't need to know that and the your business now, I'm sure, I mean, in terms of lotty's unbelievable success, it's the incredible and verb, but I didn't even know you do. I didn't know. Yeah, it's crazy. I didn't know. And so like a lot of the time, you know, you get people being like, you know, I want to hear from people who have done things and it's like, I mean, for, you know, for 10 years, I bootstrapped a company to 100 staff and sold it. Like, that's not bad, you know, and then I did a VC back company for five years to 150 million. It's not bad. But people don't, people don't know that stuff. And so it is, it is challenging to an extent and actually now that I've got you here. If you were looking at like my brand, for example, and I'd love you a view on some other people's like, how do you, how do you create long-term value? Because you will know from my stuff, like I'm a big proponent of consistency and I do think the volume is so important and people underestimate it. And you do annoy people who are so dialed into you with your volume sometimes, but then they might forget that you're playing a much bigger game. And so how would you, how would you improve my brand? Like how would you think about creating long-term value? So I would say for your brand, I, my thinking is that you're a point where you've probably made enough money. You've had a lot of commercial success off the back of it and you've gone down the business and conversion model with your brand for quite a long time, with credit, et cetera, and everything else. I think for me, it's time to, if I was, let's see what I would say, let's dial back on that. And let's pivot more into story and more into narrative and build something that has more of a mission and something to, to kind of end and to point towards as a feature and reason to a fully your brand, but also for you to have something to aim towards it's more than just business and commercials because your business is seems like it's driven mainly by that funnel and the funnel is incredibly successful, done very well. But it's like actually, can you build more of an entertainment brand off the back of what you've got now? Because that's the bit that's going to connect even more deeply, even more from a mainstream perspective and has, I think, more scale potential, of course, in a business brand. So obviously you look at like the Dave Fogge teaser of the world or you look at how to move the show last week. Yeah. But kind of his stuff. He's awesome. And his video is a great way. Like he'll do stuff like is YouTube videos of helping a business go from ex to wise? Like rounds his kitchen nightmares with businesses. Love that stuff. Entertainment meets business and because of exactly that, it's also like what you've done needs to be more clear and prominent in the entertainment side because that's your proof point. It's like imagine this a TV show. I think you could have an unbelievable YouTube channel with some investment of similar in that sense to Dave. I'd use him as a good reference point in Cody Sanchez is another obviously I'm sure you've had him on the spot as well as two people who I go, OK, they're like creating great entertainment around business. And there's not many people in the UK who've got the scale, the size of that you have that have the credibility you have in real business that most people wouldn't even know plus the personality, everything. So you I think you're doing amazing job is like a entertainment YouTube creator and somebody can build great entertainment around the world of business more than using your platform to sell businesses and to create a funnel for value products because that seems like the main thing for you right now. But I would imagine that's done well now. That can kind of for me be like, cool, done that great banked next chapter entertainment. And that's how it goes from this to like a totally another level, I think. It's funny, you say that the creator accelerator came from effectively being asked nonstop. Can I teach people how to do personal brand? Yeah. And I was like, well, I don't want to do it one-on-one because I was like, I was like, basically backpacking with Lou and I was like, there's no way I could do this one-on-one and I don't want to do one-on-one. And so it was completely like opportunistic at the moment, but then I could never have guessed that like, you know, you take verb, for example, verb was like nearly 100 people did two million in the EBITDA sold the company. Yeah. And 100 million, what was the revenue of two million EBITDA? Like 20, 25, all right, so 10% in this, this, what was the purpose of what's the margin? Well, this the thing. No, you know, if I'm just like, we talk about it internally, it's like the most ridiculous story ever in that the customers are so happy. The results are so amazing. The only people who don't like it are those who haven't done it. And the results are so amazing, it's become so commercially successful that because the results are amazing and because it's so clear to you, right, and clear to you, right? It was like a 10 million in the last year since we launched and it's like a 90% profit business. And we've put zero on it. It makes you want to never do another business bubble again. Exactly. And yet, for the first time ever, like we are doing a cohort now, so by the time it comes out, it won't even be relevant, but it's interesting to think about like, it has been a moment. It's been an amazing thing. I'm not going to say it's not going to come back, but we're going to take a break from it. Because I look at my own brand and I get, okay, I think there's bigger things we can do here. You know, like I, I want to launch a new tech business. I want to do more entertainment content. And so you can have like really commercial moments. And then not, but the thing with an audience is that as long as you provide value, they're coming with it. I should have said, but also the business is part of the content. So the creator accelerator is part of your content, right, these content. And yes, there's a commercial endpoint, but actually it's just part of the content you're making. So it can come and it can go like any TV show can come and go and then it can have a rerun and come back. But I would look at your world more from an entertainment, again, in this dialing in on this concept of like socialist principally entertainment. And that's one thing that you've done that has been entertaining and valuable for people. But actually, I think the entertainment needs to dial way up and then you become more of a network for content all around the things that you're passionate about and business. You do it in a way that is really fine. I do. If you saw Jordan Welch recently did a thing, it was like day one to day 30, you've taken a follow from broke to rich sick of so good, it was like a random kid. You got you got applications in 19 and he helped him launch an e-commerce store. And I think by the end, you made like, you know, two, three thousand or something a day in there. Yes, it would have been low profit because of ads, but still like is a kid who had literally 30 sets. Yeah. And he spent 30 days with him and he's come out of him. They've grossed. They grossed like 11, 12 grand in a month. The annoying thing that I actually think sometimes about that, right, is that some of the people we've had on the accelerator have gone from like leaving a job and like dead broke to now making an absurd amount of money. And yet because they're like professionals, they don't want to talk about a public. Yeah. And so like we, and they're English, no one is, and they're in, so they don't want to talk about money. So you often do get a couple of Americans who do it, who do it, who are like, yeah, like shout about the fact that I made millions and it's like, awesome, yeah, well, I suppose when you look at the space, like who do you think is doing that really well, like would Simon Squid be up there because his brand is now massive, you know, you know, I think Simon's, Simon's done a very good job. But again, he's done really well entertainment, really well entertainment. And obviously that converts in a different way, because you're not going to maybe make 10 million from an audience in a year that is an entertainment audience. You've done very well commercially, whereas that brand will not do as well commercially if he was a launch product, because it's mainly a kind of generalist audience. Yeah. There would be annoyed if he launched a product. Exactly. Well, you mean try to charge him for this? Yeah. Which I helped him do. It was like, why are you charging for your book? It's like, well, you think I'm going to do like the public. I need to get paid at some point. Exactly. It's paper, right? That's the cost money. But I think he's a good example of more entertainment, but he, I think, can dial down more into it. Interestingly, it's kind of the inverse. I would say for him, it's like dial down slightly more, focus more around kind of cultivating a space for an audience that's more focused around business. And then that could be your value audience from your main kind of entertainment mothership if you are. Big value audience, and that can, obviously, convert incredibly well into what you're doing. But actually now, how do you super scale that into an entertainment audience? No surprise though. His audience on the entertainment side is done, but it's been huge in terms of scale. So it's almost, but I would rather actually start in a way from your position of high value audience that's focused around your value product to then big entertainment audience. It's harder, I think, the other way around because again, to your point, expectation, they're expecting entertainment for free. They're not expecting to pay. So you've got, I think, a really good opportunity. I think some is obviously great. Dave's great. Dave like I know him. I've never met him. But Dave's great. Cody Sanchez is incredible as well. Big fan of her stuff. Obviously, people that Alex almost done incredibly well, and you watch their content. And again, they're getting more and more entertaining, I think, as time goes on. It's like that era of like, here's how you go from zero to ten. I feel like it's kind of over. I've been sitting with them. Darabaseo and Flex Studio who, you know, incredible Stevens brand is amazing, right? And I think, you know, what they've done, they've pivoted more towards entertainment as well. Absolutely. And like the debates. Very good. You know, really good. And like, I'm in. Like, I'm here to be entertaining. Yeah. That's where that was. That brought me back. I'd stop watching that long time ago. And the debates. I was like, I'm in. I'm in. Yeah. And it's hot button topics. So that they can see is working. And then it's framing it in a way that is just entertaining. So that for me is the dial up now. You have to be entertaining. And I think for you, you've got a huge opportunity, genuinely, to do that. And there's people doing it well, but there's still a gap here in the UK. So I think, yeah. You hit a point, which I think is super interesting about the creator space. And like, I've seen and lived this myself. The reason I don't do a lot of brand deals is that I monetize a completely different way. Yeah. And so like, I don't want to. I don't need to. I don't feel like I have to. And so you mentioned San Francisco. And it's like the heart of crazy fast growth business, lots of funding, et cetera. Do you see a lot of creators launching SaaS AI businesses in the futures, that how you look at like creator entrepreneurs? Oh, this is, this is a thing for me. I'm such a believer right to the point of what are the worst business models in the world? Restaurants out of the world, like serial, even, they're not, they're not good business models. They have a big reward if you invest a ton into them. Interestingly, recently, proper popcorn, they spent 20 million pounds. And I think they're not even even a bit doubt positive yet. Well, they're just about after 10 years, they've been able to use that. Oh my goodness. But they've hit a lot of volume. 20 million has gone into proper popcorn. So you just have to plug money in again, again, again. So with tech, it's obviously a totally different world. And with software, and the changes in software development, obviously, the increase in AI, the ability to, you know, for anyone really to be able to develop in a way that you couldn't before all of these things, it just opens up a whole new world of opportunity. And I'm a big believer that the next frontier where we need to get to for creators, yourself as well, is tech software, please, please, we need, it needs to have space, what's your space? I have my first VC meeting last week about a new idea. Very good. Very good. And I think it's because, after doing the Creature Accelerator and Digital Business One for a year, I was like, I want to build something again, because like people will forget, as you said, like, I am an entrepreneur first, like I love building. I love the pursuit of something. And so I can't wait to try and now blend like incredible distribution with such a high value audience. Totally. Yeah. Like, that has to be the next frontier, because why, again, why do we all go into physical, cumbersome, heavy, third party, dependent business models when you have scaled digital audiences that are global and you have a software that can be distributed globally as scale of nothing relatively. It's just night and day. So I think that is an easy win, massively easy win, sort of like under everyone's nose, but no one's done it yet. So I think that has to be the one of the Vista to Mr. Beast, good example of someone who has done it well, more of that has to come, I think. But for the right creator and the right audience with the right value audience, not for everybody. So what's the one thing that creators should stop doing right now? Creators should stop trying to go viral and focus on compounding equality audience. And what's one thing that brands misunderstand about creators? Brands misunderstand that followers mean nothing. And the reality is if you're not showing up and hitting consistent engagement and reach every single video, then you're not going to win in content as it is today. So stop overpaying on creators that aren't actually delivering results. Outside of the side, man, yeah, people you work with. Who are your gold standard creators influences right now? Gold standard creators influence right now. I would say there's a quick list in like the, I mean, the entrepreneurship space, you, I would say, you know, Simon Scrib's incredible, obviously, Steven, a flight studio, amazing, done incredibly well. I'd say on the more entertainment side, you know, in America, people like Ryan Trains, unbelievably good at what he does and such a great storyteller. You've got people, yeah, like who else is thinking in the UK, people coming up, people like, you know, you're peeking humbles of the world, people have come through inside and the side minute ecosystem and been accelerated by that. There's a lot of great people on that front who are making the most of opportunity. The stream is, of course, like people like your, you know, just speeds and your highs and your A and P's, they're just doing unbelievably well. Yeah, that's just going through the roof and we'll continue to do so. That angry gin over here is obviously done amazingly and been one of the only real like streamers that have kind of broken through here, think at high level, but he's done brilliantly. So yeah, tons of examples, obviously outside the side, man, who I would consider. Yeah. We're out there. A lot of people should just get a really good EA and 99% of their problems will go out the window. 100%. The best thing that I don't say is when people don't have, they're at some level of scale. Even some of the side men don't have assistance helping it is that thing of like, I train entrepreneurs to be creators and creators to be entrepreneurs and like entrepreneurs are very good at understanding quite quickly that you have to delegate, whereas I think creators trying to do everything themselves and buy an out super quick. And also there's control around that creative freedom, relinquishing that there's so many variables that go into that. So, yeah, totally agree. So I wanted to finish on, why do you think the sopranos is the greatest TV show ever? Because there is less in it, no, I, you know, do I think, do I actually think it's the greatest TV show ever? It, it was really good, it was really good. I think, you know what, the more I've dug into the lore of the sopranos, the more I'm just blown away by like the depth of that show, like there's so much richness in like the obviously all the theories and the world building is so good about it, but it's because there is it in it. I'll see anyway. Okay. Thank you very much for coming on, man. Thank you very much, man.