This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hi, this is Kylie breakman, Angel Jaretana. Jeremy Cole, Hank Cash McDonald. And we're the hosts of the artist on artist on artist on artist podcast. The improvised character comedy podcast where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft. Join us for a panel of Eurovision participants. And we do a little Halloween sometimes. Does the Pope dress up? Hi, he, he winks on Halloween. It's right up next to the microphone. You can, I hear you get the elbows here. The eyelashes hit each other. You never seen it least so quiet. As when the Pope gets up to ring on Halloween. Listen to artists on artists on artists on artists every Thursday on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up, comedian, creator, and host of scam goddess podcast. The true crime comedy podcast all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on an amazing guest. Ooh, I scammed them. What? I could talk to you for an hour. You're a generational yapper, like me. That's why I had to make yapping a job. And now you can catch full episodes of my show on YouTube. Start listening to scam goddess on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Lisa, tell them about our new show. We have a new podcast. It's called Don't Lie To Me. I'm Lexi Yuanio, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lacey de Julio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. And at this point in my 50s, I've lived it all. Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business. Listen on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 1986, a man named Scott McLean was killed in broad daylight. Police quickly found their suspect, prosecutors convicted him. But now, almost 40 years later, I'm re-examining this case. I really didn't believe any of it was real. And I was like, well, if they're going to figure out this is not me, they're going to do their police job. As the wrong man been in prison this whole time, listen to examined the Backfire Effect on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal. Today, we have another bonus episode. Now that season five is over, I wanted to get the whole team together, our producers, our editors, to talk about how this season came to be, and all of the moments that stuck with us along the way. Here's our conversation. Hi, everybody. Hi. Hi. We did this last year where after we released season four, we got together and talked about all of our favorite moments, what it was like producing the season. And I thought that it would be kind of fun to do it again. Maybe where we can start is going around and everyone introduce themselves and tell a little bit about how you worked on the show. Yeah, sure. Hi. I'm Caitlin Golden, and I helped to produce this season. Hi, I'm Carrie Hartman, also a producer. I'm Monique LeBord. I'm the story editor on the last two seasons of Betrayal. I'm Matthew Vickiew. I am a sound engineer on Betrayal. And I'm Tanner Robbins. I am one of the audio editors. I think a really great place to start is how we found the story in the first place. I think this question goes to Caitlin. Can you tell us a little bit about how this season and how Sasuke's story came to be? Yeah, I started at Glass about two years ago as an associate producer when Carrie and Moe were running production on Betrayal. And one of my big jobs was going through the email inbox where people write in with their thoughts about the show, but also most importantly, they're writing with their own stories of Betrayal. So Sasuke, she set an email September 2024, which is the same month that Giselle Palico went to trial for the rape case of her husband. I actually pulled up her initial email I want to read it. It's pretty short. She said, "Hello, I live in Maryland, and I was married to hold for it the man of my dreams." Everyone thought he was smart and kind and successful ended up he was doing horrible things to me while I was unconscious night after night and broadcasting this to strangers on a widespread scale in between being the perfect husband father and stepfather. Things only got worse when I found out what he was doing and we went through a legal battle. Quote, "Raping your wife," and quote, "apparently was not a crime in Maryland. So we had to have police contact tech experts in these camming websites to get the footage for court. I would really like to tell my story. I can still relate to these women that I am watching on your show. Let me know if someone can contact me. I think it would be cathartic for me. Heart emoji. Thank you, Sasuke." So yeah, it's taken a year and a half to get here where the story is officially out and the season's over, but it's been a real team effort. Gerai, I'm curious when you go back to the moment that you were like, this needs to be a season as opposed to a single episode. Is there something that stands out for you? A scene in your mind where you first really remember connecting to the story? I think for me, the fact that he could watch this person spiral, wake up with black eyes, wake up on the bathroom floor, feel like she is going crazy. Feel like she is just now destined to walk the same path as her father who struggled with mental health. And to know that you were doing something in the dark that could contribute to that is just so cruel. To me, that's why I thought this was a really good season, like the two things that were happening, lighted day and in the darkness. One thing that we've learned throughout the five seasons of betrayal is that perpetrators like Mike, they're actors, they're acting out the part of a loving husband or a great stepfather, but they're really actors. And once you accept and understand that, it's easier to see that all of it, it's like a giant fraud. Yeah. The other aspect of the story that I just was like from an emotional point of view, I think I've always really wanted to dismantle the idea of the perfect victim because I feel like we just really default to this understanding of righteous rape. That's the only person that's worthy of saying I had this crime of rape done to me is this pristine victim that was plucked off the street and this happened. Sasuke's story kind of defies that archetype, but it still doesn't change what happened to her. And so it allowed us to really examine that myth in a really big way, not just through the criminal trial, but really the divorce trial. So for that reason, I feel like that's why I really wanted to make this season. Totally. What about you? I remember in that initial phone call, she's telling the story and then all of a sudden she gets to the point in her story where he only gets 18 months in jail. And she says, this was completely legal in my state. And I was like, wait, what? How in the world? I think that was the thing that surprised me and shocked me the most this season was the fact that that law was on the books at the time was just it really hit me a little bit because like I don't understand how that could even be. Tanner, you knew nothing going into this season about the story and the creative. You're literally getting scripts from Caitlin and learning as you go. Yeah, I usually get the first draft of the episode when it's ready to go into the edit. Can you tell me what it was like working on this season? What moment most surprised you? And what do you feel like was the most impactful? What shocked me maybe the most in the story was a quote from the perpetrator, Mike. I think it was during the divorce trial that he didn't believe in his heart that he raped her. Mike is having sex with his unconscious wife. What did he think that he was doing if he was not raping her? What did he think that was? That was what was most shocking to me even after admitting to committing this crime then go to a different court and say the exact opposite. There is an entitlement there that exists in our society whether or not he knew what the laws were in Maryland. He already felt entitled to her body in a way, however he wanted it. And then there are laws that exist in the same
in which he lives with his wife that emboldened and validate that entitlement. Those two things, I think, have been interconnected and working for each other since the creation of this country. That goes kind of hand in hand to the most impactful thing is that this case and other cases that have come up recently have helped change these laws and these laws are changing and I think it's good to see that lawmakers at least are waking up to some of this. Lisa, we should tell them about our new show! Oh my god, Lexi, we have a new podcast. I'm Lexi Iwaneo, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. And I'm Lisa Di Giulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions and at this point in my 50s I've lived it all. I'm not gonna get any worse than fighting! That is wild. I learned that about you today. Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business and I've always got something to say. If man were just honest about this, there would be so much more peace in the world. We're gonna talk about dating, relationships, beauty, getting older, and a little wiser. We're best friends, but we don't always agree. Because you told us how accommodating you are! Obviously, I would do what I think I could do to fight the fight, but there's only so much fight I can fight. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Don't lie to me. Liar. Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't really care. Jeremy Colhane, Patrick McDonald. And we're the hosts of the artists on artists on artists on artists podcast. The improvised character comedy podcast, we're each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft. Join us for a panel of wellness influencers. What I try to do is foe journal. I don't know if you guys heard of foe journaling. Yeah, it's reading, it's called reading. So you're so we don't like to use that word anymore. Okay. A panel of New Yorker cartoonists. Have you guys done Terry Gross's Peloton class? No! I've been dying too. I'm so sorry, I'm seeing a reading of Sadako in the Thousand Paper Cranes by Audrement Donald at the Wonderland bookstore, 14. That's crazy, I went to the Wonderland bookstore yesterday and I heard Nora Jones do a reading of Zero Dark Thirty. No way! Patrick of the last bookstore though, Kim Katrol is reading the guitar tabs of yesterday. A panel of Eurovision participants. I hear he'll get the ovals here, the eyelashes hate each other. You've never seen Italy so quiet as when the pope gets up to wink on Halloween. Listen to artists on artists on artists on artists. On the iHeard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up comedian, creator, and host of Scam Goddess Podcast. The True Crime Comedy Podcast, all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Each week I bring on incredible guests like Conan O'Brien, Iowa Debris, Lamorne Morris, and Nicole Byer. Ooh, I scammed them. What? And the scams run the gamut. I'm talking about scams from the 1800s, all the way up to today. I also warn you and keep you safe against scammers. Call your grandparents. Tell your parents to stop clicking on links, please. If there's a scam, I'm here to protect you. And I'm also here to laugh with you. So if you like fun, if you like comedy, and you like learning and protecting yourself from criminals, start listening to scam goddess on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi listeners. I'm Nell McShane Wolfhardt, the host of the Girlfriends Flight or Fight podcast. I'm excited to share the Girlfriends Flight or Fight story with you. I want to let you know that you can get access to all episodes of season one, two, three, four, and five of the Girlfriends. And every single episode of the Girlfriends Flight or Fight 100% Add Free. With an iHeart True Crime Plus subscription, available exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Plus, you'll get access to all episodes of the Girlfriends Flight or Fight one week ahead of everyone else. Available only to iHeart True Crime Plus subscribers. So don't wait, head to Apple Podcasts, search for iHeart True Crime Plus, and subscribe today. We often talk about amends. What does amends really look like? Once you've understood that you've done something wrong and you deeply hurt somebody, you're operating from a place of harm reduction. What can I do to repair, do less harm, and own up to my mistakes? And when you look at how things played out in the divorce, if someone who understands that they've done something wrong, understands the impact of their behavior and actions towards another person, would say, you know what, no fault divorce. Let me make this really easy for you. Let me do as little harm in this process. To Sasuke. That would be the right thing to do. He did not do that. As much as it is to tell Sasuke's story, we are in a way telling the Mike Levin good story of what he did to his wife. And I'm a human being. I think about the fact that he's trying to rebuild. But I also think about the fact of like, what has this person done to restore and help support Sasuke? This is something Carrie and I have been talking about. So Carrie had produced seasons one through four. And when this season came around, Carrie actually stepped out to produce another show at Glass, "Birden of Guilt." And that is a redemption arc story. People should go listen to it. The perpetrator had genuinely put in the work to make amends for something heinous that he did in his past. And this is something Carrie and I have been talking about here with season five of the trail with Sasuke's story. Because like, we don't set out to demonize these perpetrators. We set out to report the story. Survivors come to us, right to us. And we work with them. But if there was genuinely an effort that Mike Levin good had made to acknowledge the harm he had done to make amends, you know, and he did plead guilty. Like, he had the opportunity to use that to make a statement to her, to not put her through the divorce trial she did. And like you were saying, Andrea, like, he did not take those opportunities. And so we can't report a redemption arc because it isn't there. And it's disappointing, honestly. I think the thing that makes this season different in terms of that amends an accountability piece is that we're talking about a perpetrator who has gone on to make an entire career off of his criminal past. And to me, the most shocking tape of the entire season comes at the end of Episode 9, where you hear Trey recounting the phone call with Mike Levin good. And I was in the room for that call, so I remember it very well. And Trey gets on the line, tells Mike that we want to tell this story about his business and about his relationship with Sasuke Inwood. And the tone and Mike's voice was just so shocking, like you could tell, he really did not see the connection between what he did to Sasuke and what he is doing in his business now. It's like he has had to sever something in his mind in order to move forward with his life. And that's a privilege that Sasuke will never be afforded. I'm so curious, this goes to the editors. What is your favorite episode of the season and why? The courtroom, the criminal trial. Maybe it's just because I love tape in the field. It's one thing to hear somebody tell their story. It's another thing to hear it happening in real time. And hearing the judge see through Mike's lies. You know, when you hear defense attorneys and witnesses saying all these things that you know are not true or just being spun in this way. And then to hear the person with the power see through it and make the right decision. It's just so satisfying. Truthfully, I don't have a favorite episode, but I do second a lot of what you said, Dana. It's always refreshing whenever a judge takes a minute to recommend somebody who just thinks that he's flying pretty. It feels like a good moment whenever you get to hear a judge say, "Actually, you're completely wrong." That was definitely impactful for me too. Yeah. And sometimes you can have all the evidence. The videos, the photos, and it still may not be enough. But in this case, the judge really saw. And I'm so grateful.
I was gonna ask you, you know, having worked on this show in every iteration of it, having worked with so many different subjects. What do you really resonated this season? - I think we knew, even before the Giselle Pelico story came out, this kind of crime is a trend. It's under-reported, and it's probably under-reported because people are too shame-filled to report it. - Yeah, and it's under-propsecuted. - I really feel good when we are bringing things to the surface that might be uncomfortable or even unrealized by a good portion of the public. Because you never know when one of our audience members might be waking up in the morning, unsure of what happened the night before or feeling odd, and it's just information and education that it's okay to question. - Totally. - I mean, with the idea that this is a trend, for me, one of the most impactful parts of this season was talking to all of these other women who had experienced this crime. We did also include these stories of Natalie, Ember, and Stephanie, and watching the three of them in their progression and their healing journey has been really impactful too. I mean, Dre and I talk all the time about Natalie, in particular, she'd never heard of a story like her own until she heard Stephanie's episodes on betrayal weekly. And when I first got on the phone with her, she was incredibly nervous. And over the course of many, many months, we had lots of conversations back and forth about do you want to tell your story now, is later down the line a better time? What level of anonymity do we want to use? She eventually felt comfortable. And when we had that round table conversation with all of these other survivors, it was like a different woman was in that room. Our hope as a show is always the people that we're working with, we are able to impact their lives in some little way that by helping them tell their story, we are helping them on their healing journey. But I think that was one of the first times where I, as someone who's really new to this field, saw right before my eyes like, this is someone who's transformed. There was just a brightness in her face that made me incredibly emotional. I mean, that's the thing. It's realizing that you're not alone. - I felt that way when I was listening to the bonus episode with the case updates. - Yeah. - And I honestly got choked up listening to Stephanie at the very end. Spoilers, if anyone hasn't listened to that bonus episode, it's an update on Ember Natalie and Stephanie. And when Carrie and I first talked to Stephanie, she was wearing baggy clothes. She would chop off all of her hair. She couldn't even look in the mirror. And she's just now reclaiming her body and that's the work that she's done. But to see that happen from meeting her two years ago, it's astonishing to see what she's done in the work that she's put in and how she came out on the other side. - It's cool. - It's really cool. - When people ask which they often do, "Oh, it must be so hard to work on stories like this." The antidote for me is really getting to see the healing and the connections and the progress the survivors are making and to see that the telling of their story was helpful in that is actually more impactful for me in the end than the worst part of their story that we hear. - Well, thank you all for your hard work this season. It was a difficult season to produce. It was an emotional one to produce. And, you know, we deal with really tough subject matter, but I'm really proud of the season and I'm proud of everyone's work on it. And so thank you. (upbeat music) - For resources on sexual violence, visit rain.org/betrayal. That's r-a-i-n-n.org/betrayal. You can also get free confidential 24/7 support through Rain's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text Hope to 64673 or call 1-800-656 Hope. You are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or wanna tell us your story, email us at
[email protected]. That is
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[email protected]. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership with I Heart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faisen. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Caitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique LeBord, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablow. Production management by Kristen Melcuri. Additional support by Curry Richman. Our I Heart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crinecheck. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends and family. And special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by Mybe Music. And for more podcasts from I Heart, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or forever, you get your podcasts. I'm Lacey Mosley, author, actor, stand-up, comedian, creator, and host of SCAM Goddess Podcasts. The True Crime Comedy Podcasts all about robbery, fraud, and those who practice it. Ooh, I scammed him. What? Start listening to SCAM Goddess on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. ♪ I got this ♪ - Hi, this is Kylie Breakman, Angel Jaretana. - Jeremy Colhane, Patrick McDonald. - And we're the hosts of the artists on artists on artists on artists podcast. - The improvised character comedy podcast where each week a new panel of artists discuss their craft. - Join us for a panel of Eurovision participants. - And we do a little Halloween sometimes. - Does the Pope dress up? - He winks on Halloween. - It's right up next to the microphone. - I hear you get the bubbles here. - You never seen it least so quiet. As when the Pope gets up to wink on Halloween. - Listen to artists on artists on artists on artists every Thursday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - Lisa, tell them a better new show. - I'm Lexi Yuanil, we're two best friends, 22 years apart, but so close at heart. - And I'm Lisa Di Giulio, the old one, which means we have wildly different references, occasionally different opinions. And at this point in my footies, I've lived it all. - Now in my 30s, being the founder of new shoes, good taste is my business. - Listen on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - In 1986, a man named Scott McLean was killed in broad daylight. Police quickly found their suspect. Prosecutors convicted him. - I really didn't believe any of it was real. And I was like, well, they're gonna figure out this is not me, they're gonna do their police job. - As the wrong man, been in prison this whole time. Listen to examined, the Backfire Effect, on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - This is an I Heart Podcast, Guaranteed Human.
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