The Making of ICE-CREAM | Bonus Episode

What's up everyone, it's Adam Merciano and I'm the co-creator, co-writer, and executive producer of Ice Cream. If you recognize my voice, it's because I play the unfortunate character of Mr. Handsome. On this bonus episode of Ice Cream, we'll be taking you through how we made the show in less than a month, from conceptualization to writing to casting to recording and to editing, all in a four week span to have it ready just in time for Halloween. I've decided to break up this episode into two parts. Part one is with our co-creator and writer Adam Blanford. We'll talk about writing the show and casting it. We even feature some audition tapes from the actors themselves. Halfway through this episode will be Part Two, which will feature our series director Antonio Cordero. He will walk us through directing the series and how he broke down each character and his techniques for working with the actors and child actors. We also may give an update on Season Two of Cascadia. So stay tuned. If you want more Ice Cream, feel free to subscribe to 911 Plus on Apple Podcast, where we have clean versions of Ice Cream, as well as add free super cut episodes and interviews with the cast on our brand new show Unscripted. That's on 911 Plus exclusively on Apple Podcasts available now. So without further ado, sit back, relax, and enjoy this episode of the Making of Ice Cream. Hello, hello, my friend. How's it going? Pretty good. How you doing? Good, good, good. Everybody, Adam Blanford. He is the co-writer of our show and just an overall spectacular co-creator. I literally had so much fun working on this with you. What was it like for you to just jump into this project? Because I think that it was such a. What are your early memories from this? Because I feel like we were working on something else. Yeah. I guess tell me the journey for you with this. Let's see. We started working together on a different project in April. We've been working on that for a couple of months. And then in June, you sent me a message. In the late at night, I was like, "I had an idea for a podcast. It's a horror podcast." So you started giving me a whole range of ideas for this. And then you said, "Will you work on this with me?" And then here's the catch. We have to get it done in five weeks. So. And so that's what I remember. I remember going, "Are you out of your mind?" And then we just started and I was like, "Okay, let's see what we can do." What's in favor of the world? Yeah. No. I mean, like you said, we were. Well, first of all, I met you with Cascadia. A lot of people don't know this, but you played an FBI agent in Cascadia where you break down the doors and spoil alert you arrest one of our villains on the show. And so that's how we first met. And then yeah, we started working on a completely different project. You know, you and I were really into it. We were working hard. And then I'll never forget it. And I was outside finishing the editing on the final episode of this other project. And then this blaring, annoying ice cream truck just zoomed by. And I was like, "Oh, that is just so frickin annoying." And then I looked at the ice cream truck and I was like, "That is. That's the whole concept of an ice cream truck that is very odd." And I started to like think about it and think about how like the whole idea of, you know, the fact that kids will just drop everything almost like in a trance and run over to the ice cream truck by an ice cream from a random person that we don't even know is able to even sell ice cream. Like, "How do we know are there authorized to do that?" You know? And then they're gone. And we never see them again. And I remember even like my mom would have a jar of money by the door in our, in our childhood home for the times that the ice cream truck would come. Because, you know, she didn't want me to bother her every time. She just put some money in a jar. Which is crazy. You know, to think about how it could happen. An ice cream man can steal somebody. So, I came to you with this idea and I said, "Look, I know like you said, I know I'm crazy. I know this is crazy. We're just finished working on this show." This other show, do you want to. Like you said, we have five weeks to do this. Do you want to help me?" And you said, "Absolutely." And the reason why we had five weeks was because we wanted to get it out for Halloween. We only had a certain amount of time to record. And yeah, so did I come with you with a draft or did we kind of come with it together? I really don't even remember. So, I think we started with the idea and then being the endless ball of energy that you are, I think within a day you had a draft for the first episode. And so, I started looking at it. And that's when we started hammering out some of the specifics about the character. You know, because we were like, "Okay, is he a serial killer? Is he magic? What is he exactly in this universe? And what is it that Elgin is trying to confront in this cat and mouse game with the ice cream? And what is it that he's trying to get? What is the overall problem that he's confronting? And who's helping him along the way? And so, that's why we were really kind of jumping in with Elgin and Olivia and Dustin and all the other characters. Because we were trying to figure out the different pieces in which they occupied. And then you came to me and said, "You know, this should be in the 1980s." And so, I was like, "Okay, right." And I was like, "Okay, all right, the 1980s." Because we needed to, the time when you couldn't do Google anybody. Right. In the most sense. And that's where my expertise came in. Because I was old enough to have lived in the 80s. Yeah. So, I know when we were recording, you were in the recording process a lot. And you were saying, you know, they should say, you know, lines like radical or, you know, they wouldn't say this back in the day. And, you know, I mean, Antonio and I were not even born during that time. So, you know, you were very great to help us with the terminology and things that maybe we, I mean, obviously we did our research, but like things that people that lived through that would know. You know, so that was very helpful. What did you like about writing the show and creating these characters? I mean, was it, what, I guess, like, what did you enjoy and what was like the challenge for you in terms of that kind of? I think for me, it was, it was about, I've really come to enjoy horror. And 2022 is, in 2021, 2022, I've really been a year of horror for me and that not personally. But what I'm saying is with the creation. Because I started writing a horror myself with a micro anthology called Illumins and Bad Tidings. And so all of the stories are the length of a tweet. You have all these different challenging aspects to it because you have to tell the story and that amount of time with that dialogue with music, with everything. So I started experimenting there and really started getting more interested in the horror genre. And then this year I narrated an audiobook called Deeper Than Hell. And so I was really in that mindset because I was recording that while we were writing ice cream. I was like, okay, you know, here's the thing. I'm just seeing all these different, the way that different writers approach, you know, the approach in prose. Like how can you approach it in audio drama? And so I really enjoyed that the challenge of making this, I love the challenge of creating this terrifying kind of world using the ice cream man, who you think is harmless. And I really loved being able to just try and figure out, okay, how can we make this mysterious? How can we make this off putting? What is it that he's going to confront in this story that is so off putting it up the ice cream man? And what does the ice cream man want? And so, you know, there were a lot of questions that we were trying to answer. And so puzzling that out and trying to make everything logical. I mean, I remember there was a time where we were going to make him almost magical kind of creature. Do you remember the thought process of getting there and then deciding ultimately, no, maybe not that way? And there's, you know, it's so funny because Adam, I don't really remember both cascadia and ice cream writing it. I think we get into these kind of like, I get into this kind of like days of just like, you know me, like I get so focused in it. I get so into it when we're working on it, but then when I'm out of it, it's like, it's gone. It's very bizarre. I don't know. So I'm wondering if you were, because this is all news to me. So tell me. Well, originally, we, so we talked about it. We couldn't decide exactly what he was. And so the idea was originally, he was going to be a serial killer. And we thought about that. But then, you know, when we talked about it, the more we puzzled it over and we kind of played with the idea, the more we thought, well, that's kind of pedestrian. It's not something that is mysterious. If he's a serial killer, the police will be all over him. There has to be something about him that allows him to move mysteriously or to be mysterious and still have this facade of normality to be able to throw off any suspicious minds. Right. And so we were talking about it. And then we thought about him being magical. And that was kind of the original idea that we had. And then I think I was doing some research. And then I was like, well, what if he was a biblical demon or something? What if he was, what if he was demot? Yes. Because, you know, we want him to be able to snatch children. We want to be able to move, you know, in a really off-putting fashion. We want him to be able to do different things that a normal human being wouldn't be able to do. So we originally made him a demon. And then we had to figure out the overall trajectory of, okay, how is he a demon? What can he do? What can he do? And so the more we talked about it and played with it is how we started to flesh out Alec. Yeah. And so, you know, and the great thing was is that you came up with the name Alec. I found the name Alcanor as. Yes. in the research. Which is so crazy because that was, I came up with that idea just a random name just kind of like a placeholder for the time that we were writing. And then you're like, no, no, this actually works. This Alcanor is actually one of the sort of. of its meals above. Yep. Very ironic and I thought that was as like, "Hey, then this is meant to be." So yeah, the more we started to flesh out, we thought, "Okay, well, what if he is actually human?" Or, "What if he is a demon, but he somehow renounced his demonic powers?" Or, "He's somehow not using them actively until this time." Part of it was, when I think that along very similar lines, and then we kind of come up with the idea and then I'm like, "Okay, how do we make this logically consistent? How do we make this scientifically consistent?" Because the whole idea of the cream, originally we tried to see if we could figure out some basis in scientific reality so that, if anybody was listening to it and they'd go, "Well, that's not true, that's made up." So again, being able to say, "Yeah, he's a demon, it's magic." Then we could get away with a lot. We could get away with it. Yeah, but also I just, I love the demon aspect because it is so grounding in the terms of just the horror of how something that maybe happened in your past or your old self still creeping up to the new you or the current you and knocking on your door. And even if you're you're past that part of your life, it could still re-occur. And even though we've done it in more of a demonic way, and there's different elements in the show, I think it's still relatable that like, you can run from your past but you can't hide. But something that along those lines, it's like, that's what makes a human and grounds it a bit. Yeah, and what's really great is that there are really great parallels between Elgin and between Elgin and Lelok is running from his past. And Elgin is trying to, in some ways, step into his future. Because one thing that we really fleshed out was the idea that Elgin is kind of a, he starts out as a boy. And then by the end, he's really stepping into more of an adult role. He's taking charge. He is, he's, you know, I'm not going to take this from this guy. I'm taking him down. You know, there's a real transformation there. And then we find out that Elgin actually tried to transform. But in some ways, he couldn't buy his out of, he made a choice. And he's being brought back into the full regardless of what he really wants. And, you know, so there's, there's some really great parallels between these two things. They're great foils for each other. And in the end, it's like, you know, the last episode, it's like they have this wonderful moment where Elgin and Elgin are talking to each other. And it's like, wouldn't you do anything for the one you love? And that's what Elgin had to do for, you know, his, his, he lost his son and, you know, the things he's doing is for his wife because of the skin condition. And he's kind of putting Elgin unfairly in this position where it's like, you have to choose between your brother or, you know, saving them or sacrificing. So it's this really interesting parallel, like you said. And, and yeah, he's on the cusp of puberty and, you know, him and Olivia. And that's why they haven't been a target because they had rough skin. And they weren't, you know, they're kind of going through that change where, you know, Mr. Handsome, victims are, are free-viewed bests in children because they haven't gone through the change in their skin yet and stuff. And so I just thought that was so rich and the way you came up with all that with me. And it was just so fun to do because we were, it was just coming out of us. It was like, yeah, it was, it was so euphoric, you know, as a writer to write with you in that way, truly, you know, and it was so fun. And just to have it evolve in real time and watch it evolve in real time because we had this idea, but it's like, how are we going to make this, how are we going to sustain this for a series? And then the more we kept on adding to it, it just kept on getting darker and darker. Well, yeah. And like we, you know, we talked about all the different themes. And so, you know, originally, I, you know, my thought originally was let's let's, let's imply a lot of the violence and a lot of the gourd, but then we decided to go for the gross out, which is really, you know, if Steven King wrote about that, he was like, when in doubt, just gross amount. And so I was like, you know, what, okay, let's do it. You know, let's go for it and see what happens. And so we, we started building on to the, the lore, you know, Elgin's going to this place in just, in just Sedona and, and then, you know, he's from Denver, you know, for everyone listening at home, this is my history. I'm from Ohio. I live in Denver, which is where Elgin is. And then Sedona, I really don't have no connection there. We just, we just, but, yeah, well, we want some more hot, right? Because a nice, grand man, you would, you know, yeah. So, and so, and so, yeah, we did. And I'm a, a modged to you, those, those places, for sure. It was definitely inspired because I was the American slash 80s expert because I live in America and I'm, you know, old. And so, no, that's where my, that's where my expertise came, came in, came in handy. So I love the whole, I mean, another thing, I mean, you know, Alec, Alec and Eleanor, they are, you know, they are to somewhat serial killers. We never officially say that, you know, but there's, you know, there's been news reports of them kind of disappearing after the kids disappear. And there have been all different cities. And the reason why we want to also set in the 80s was because I feel like, you know, I've watched a lot of documentaries in the 80s, a lot of counties, a lot of states, they didn't really interact with each other in the police departments, right? They didn't really have a database or a system. So that was another reason why we did that too because it was easier to have them move around faster, you know, and, and more discreetly. But there was something that I just love about the 80s that is so 80s, which is, you know, QVC, Avalon, those like door to door selling, kind of face cream, skin cream, kind of, you know, that whole industry was so kind of appealing to me. It's such an 80s thing. And I thought, you know, I don't even remember how we came up with the whole face cream. But I knew I wanted something with cream because ice cream, it could be a double meaning. And then we kind of played into all that. And that was so, so fun to write because it was just, that's so classic, right? Yeah. And so with the 80s, yeah, there's the lack of infrastructure for the internet. The internet was really kind of isolated. Right. You know, the stuff that we have today, that was science fiction in the 80s. We were like, well, you know, only Cal, this is, you know, being able to talk to people on a computer, what is this? This is food. And then we QVC, excuse me, an A-von, it's A-von. Yes. But and my mom used to buy cosmetics from an A-von lady. I remember that. So there was that. And then there was also, we talked about the satanic panic of the A-von. Yes. Yes. Because the idea that we wanted to find a way to make Elgin seem like he was, you know, hallucinating or his full of it. And so we came up with the idea of, if it's in the 80s, there's the satanic panic going on. So the parents are a little bit hyper vigilant, but in the wrong way. And there's just this concern of, you know, if you're playing Dungeons and Dragons, oh my God, the devil's going to possess you and you're not going to be able to distinguish reality from fantasy. There's all this horrible stuff going on. And that's going to help play into the paranoia of Elgin saying, well, the ice cream man is a serial killer. And so we, you know, we had a lot of fun building that up. And, you know, constructing the characters for Alec and Elinor was great because we were like, okay, you know, if Alex, if he is a demon, then he doesn't really have to worry about aging. How do we keep Elinor with him? So then the cream made sense because she would use the cream. It was a very common thing, you know, like most women in the 80s were using the face creams and other stuff like that. And I think we also talked about it one point. We're going to say, okay, well, Elinor, you know, she looks 40 years old, but you know, mentally she's gone. She's out to last. We talked about how you'd be really senile or really, really insane because you have the weight of killing all these children over the years. It doesn't matter if you're on board with it. It still takes a psychic toll. Not that I'm speaking of it. But we were saying that, you know, it takes a psychic toll. And so she's beginning to lose her loose touch. Well, you know, we've been doing interviews with Diana who plays Elinor and she said it really well. She's like, you know, it's almost like you she's Elinor had this. She was a woman of faith, a devoted wife. And you know, she thought that this was going to be their life. And then something terrible happens, which is she loses her kid and to this demon that she knew about, but was promised that it was in the past, you know, and then she gets this horrible skin disease all around the same time. And it's like, what other option do you have? What do you have to do to survive and for love? And, you know, it's it is kind of extreme. But, you know, seriously, if you put yourself in that shoe in your shoes, I'm not saying I would do it. But like, what would you do? Like, what would you do if you had the one solution? It's, it's, you know, and then add on top of that to the psychcoticness of Alec and maybe the manipulation to him. You know, it's, it's, it's all a recipe for for terror and horror, you know, and, and it's sad at the end of the day because I don't think Alec does want to do it either, but he has to because he wants to save his life and his wife and everything. Well, one of the narrative rules, you know, and writing is if you really want to create a true villain, you give him a choice for redemption. If they have it, if they take the choice, then, you know, they're, then they're no longer a villain. But if you give them the choice and they cast it away, that truly makes them the villain. And so they're, they're just amazing examples in, in, in appable culture that, that really show that, you know, that that characters have this chance to really be truly good. And they throw it away because they feel that they need to do something else. Like, you know, Anakin Skywalker's like, oh, I want to save my wife. So I'm going to kill all these people. Right. Jedi. You know, so that, that's a real, you know, he, he was given a chance at redemption. Yeah. And he screwed it up. But, but another thing isn't, you know, as a creator, and I'm sure you feel this way too, you know, seeing that people on the fourth episode, which is the flashback episode of Alec, you know, say that, oh my god. way I actually like him where I'm actually rooting for him or actually feel bad for him. Yeah. That was really cool because you know we started off not knowing where the story was going when we wrote it you know but then having a human motion to him and and putting him in a position where Biel's a Bob is saying you're either going to do this or you're either going to do this because either way I'm going to get you so either we're going to play ball my way and at least you can have some kind of life and continue your all American life or not but you're going to just end up coming back to me so either way so it's just he's he's cornered as well so it's just a lot of layers to it which I really don't think I could have done without you so. Thank you right. I love writing that so that the scene between Biel's Bob and Charlie it was and and Alec was great because you know it was like okay how do we make this guy truly evil and one thing is just we're going to make him flip it he's going to be just tonning the crap out of him all the way through the scene and then he's going to sit there and be like look you are what you are fish got a swim bird's got a fly demons got a possess souls and and so that's where the where that line you know you can clothe yourself and meet and flesh and bone but it doesn't change what you are and you know and and with every life you take it's going to chip with that veneer of humanity and you're going to come back to the full and so that was really fun because it was like he's he's you know he's foreshadowing he's like look you're you're going to fall it doesn't matter how pure you think you are you can go ahead and do this because it's all transitory we are eternal and so that I was hit a fun fun scene to play and the the actors that we had were phenomenal oh so cool I I just interviewed Stephen for our unscripted show which is a deep dive on the actors and he said you know I want to approach it with just a very you know subtle you know grounded way I didn't want to be our demonic vibes I want to be very subtle because I think the horror was in the writing and the and just the what we were what I was saying I didn't need to put it on it was already there in the writing so it was superb I mean like I said I think I messaged you at one point I was like he's like Jeffrey combs yes well the noted horror actor and reanimator and you know he sounded to me like a character in Star Trek Deep Space 9 named Wayne this really like smarmy diplomat it was just he's a horrible person and he just has this great you know like so so yes Stephen was great in in Apple Turing that I loved it it's fantastic yeah I wanted to talk to you about casting because we together were doing the casting a lot what was the process for you in terms of that when yes I I listened to I listened to a lot of the I listened to the auditions for Elgin and I think I listened to the ones for Dustin and then Officer Wilson and and you know with Laura's audition I just heard I heard this voice of that there's a there was a little bit of of resignation like you know this this is just a really shitty situation to be in but there was a quiet authority to her avoid she carried herself in that scene with those lines that we gave her it's just incredible poise and incredible strength and I felt like less is more you know we we don't want a character that goes in and you know throws the interrogation table over and gets in the face like who do you work for you know like right who right why would you kill them like I we wanted someone who really would be level headed and be really really strong in the face of adversity and so Lauren's audition was fantastic I could just see her you know like if this ever were to go to screen she'd have to play the character because totally hi Lucas remember me I'm Officer Wilson the one who interviewed you the other day and who are you hi Olivia what do you look it's not about taking you seriously or not we just didn't have any proof or evidence we don't even have a name or a license plate for this guy well that's what I want to propose to you now I know this is all very traumatic for you Lucas so if you don't want to do this that is 100% okay you said the ice cream truck guy comes at what time okay so I'm thinking of having you and Olivia go undercover operation ice cream truck if you will you'll stand outside your house waiting for the ice cream man to come at 3 p.m. once he does you approach him as if you're going to buy some ice cream don't worry the entire street will be heavy with undercover police presence will be an unmarked cars and standing by watching the entire thing even if he tries to take you will have him cornered and arrested in seconds the goal here is to catch him in the act of abduction so we can apprehend him and find out where these missing kids are including your brother hi Elgin do you remember me I'm officer Wilson I took your statement the other day I know who you are and what's your name Olivia I live a few doors down hi Olivia why didn't you take what I said seriously you didn't even bring him in for questioning now now he took my little brother another kid gone because of you it's okay it's not about taking you seriously or not we just don't have any proof or evidence we didn't even have a license plate or a name to go on how many kids have to go missing before you stop this fucking lunatech huh none but we need more than an eye witness mr. foster do you mind joining us please yeah okay I want to start by saying that I understand this is very traumatic situation for everyone so if you don't want to do what I'm about to tell you that is 100% okay what is it all right you said mr. handsome comes at what time well 3 p.m. and 11 p.m. is what we noticed right this is unorthodox but in an attempt to catch him in the act I want Elgin and Olivia to go undercover what just hear me out the two of you will stand outside this house waiting for mr. handsome to return if you arrives you'll approach him as if you're going to buy some ice cream meanwhile my team and I will be in unmarked cars watching the entire time if he tries anything anything we'll have the entire area blocked off so he can't get anywhere he's not going anywhere what do you say I mean the kids I mean the kids were so amazing I was so impressed by hearing these well trained polished children who come in and do such an amazing job I was very very impressed I mean yeah listening to him I was just listening I was like okay you know the you know these you know who is convincing as a as a 14 year old kid who's convincing as a 10 year old you know when they're talking is there you know do they embody that character we're trying to listen you know can they just step into that voice and really just you know be that character and so you know our our choices were were great hot I'm Billy Christos Jr I'm 11 years old and I live in Vancouver BC hello anyone there hmm do you have any tiger blood ice cream Dustin yeah just visiting my dad for the summer originally from Denver though it's cool I guess just exploring now how much do I owe you really radical thanks thanks later yes and what song is that we all scream for ice cream yeah I know it so if I sing this to you you'll give me free ice cream wow thanks Sure. I guess. ♪ I scream, you scream, we all scream for ice cream. ♪ [sighs] ♪ I scream, you scream, we all scream for ice cream. ♪ (door slams) - Hi there. Welcome to Scoop's Ice Cream Truck. What can I get you today? Hmm. Do you have any Tiger Blood? I sure do! Come and ride out. I've been seeing you around, kid. What's your name? Dustin. Hi, Dustin. Are you new to the neighborhood or. Just visiting my dad for the summer? Yeah, very cool. Okay. I got one Tiger Blood Ice Cream for our new visitor, Dustin. Thanks! How much do I owe ya? No, keep your money. It's on the house. Really? So it's free. Mm-hmm. Oh, welcome to the neighborhood special. Cool. Thanks. It's just so that even Elgin, the way he talks and he's such a 14 year old, he's 20 year old in real life. But he just has that kind of like. There's just everything. Olivia's voice was so different. Yeah. Perfect. Everybody was so good. And I'm so proud of it, you know? And it's like, I don't know. I'm so happy because everyone worked so hard too, you know. In the studio, they were working hours and hours and they were just healing yet. So. Yeah, we did it over several days and you know, we were. It was funny because you guys were all. I mean, you're all really good about remembering that, hey, Adam's on the line. I gotta, you know, be able to. Yeah, see the actors or see him here. Yeah, and so. I mean, you were, yes, we were recording in Vancouver, so you called in and it was hard because sometimes. I was using my phone and I had to get you on and it was hard. But we'll definitely make sure that's the next show or something. We'll get you maybe flown in hopefully one day and you can spend the week with us. Did you. Should we talk about anything else on the writing or do you think we've covered most of that? I mean, between the two of us, we. I think we did a great job. I think that. You know, like, you were coming up with a lot of really great ideas and got all the. Thank you. Yeah, sure. And then I'd come along and I might be like, okay, let's change this line here. Yes. Like, we really thought along the same line. So when you wrote it, I'd be like, okay, I see what you're going here. Let's go and change this up. So we really are a good team in that. Yes. That kind of structure. And yeah. I mean, how many times have I said you voice notes and voice notes and you send me voices and we're just like. Yes! Oh my god, yeah, that's hilarious or that's amazing. Yes, come on. And then with the Google Doc and I mean, if we could just put our voice notes all together, it'd be like a good. That's a zone show, I think, you know. So. So, any. So final thoughts, I guess, on this is. What is your reaction to everybody listening to the show and loving the show? I mean, we've been listening to over 50 countries and had all these downloads and it's so crazy. Like I said, we only. It was only six months ago. We conceptualized this idea and then now it's had such a big reach. What are your thoughts on that, you know, and seeing all the reactions online? It's wonderful. I mean, I'm blown away by the reaction that people have had. Because you look on various social media platforms and people like, "Oh my god, you sons of bitches, you made me feel some. Oh, he's terrible!" And I feel bad for him. Why I feel bad because of it. And so like, wow, that's incredible. And then we've got people talking about, "Oh my god, this is like a perfect. Like the tablo is perfect. The sound design. I mean, your sound design was absolutely on point." Thank you, Adam. Because you've got. So there are people who are born to be sound designers, who have a born instinct for it. Then there are people who have to learn it, you know, the hard way. So I learned it the hard way. You've got the natural instinct for it. And so that really added that environment, which really helped. And so, you know, to have people go, you know, "Holy shit, this sound design is incredible." Like, I had professional audio engineers telling me, "This fucking incredible." And then. Thank you. You know, when we're getting the reviews and you're like, "You know, we've managed to channel Stephen King." Like, that's a really nice compliment. Yeah, that's a really cool compliment. That was cool. I mean, that's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know how hard we've worked on this. And yeah, like you said, to see all that is just. I mean, we don't do it for that. We do it to make good content and to make. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to be able to hear like, you know, this is so amazing. I love to be able to listen to it. I mean, it's wonderful to know that it's resonating with people and that they're on board with it. And they're subscribing to it. I mean, that's the fuel for the tank. I mean, like, I don't necessarily need to be told I'm wonderful all the time. Yes. It's nice. Please don't. Yeah. But, you know, to have people say, you know, you did a good job. That's really great. Yeah. Because then you say, okay, we're ready for the next project. We're ready to get something else out because we want to keep that going. And so, that's really validating. And it was a lot of fun. And, you know, that's the most important thing is that we enjoyed it and we had a good time making it and the audience had a good time listening to it. I think there was a synergy there. Very well said, sir. Thank you so much. Again, and if anything, you know, I've made a good friend in you this year. Oh, absolutely. And I'm glad that I can't wait to continue our partnership and working together on Future and I One One shows. It's going to be so much fun in the future with you. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Just audience just you wait. Okay. Okay, okay, my sir. How are you, Antonio? I'm good. I'm emotionally exhausted, but I'm good. We've been working on yellow jackets all week. Yes. It's the show I'm currently working on around that last week. Finish enough for the year and then we'll come back and finish the rest of the season in the new year. Well, I'm so proud of you because you literally get to do this full time directing and working in film. And I think a lot of people would want that. And I know it's really draining and tiring. You work really hard, but you have to sometimes think like, oh, man, like I'm doing what a lot of people wish, right? Yeah. I am very cognizant of the fortune I do have, but it also, yeah, like with everything in life, you need balance and kind of know your limits. And don't push yourself too far because in your crack. So I'm just finding out what those limits are this year for sure. Yes. Well, Antonio, we're here again, round two. Ice cream. How do you feel? I'm really proud of this project. I came in as just the director's story editor on this one. So I kind of got the script finished, which was different than Cast Gatede season one because I worked very closely with the writing on that one. And it was really refreshing to see what something that wasn't involved in necessarily the creation writing process and seeing how I can interpret it as a director and put my own spin on it, you know, tweak a little thing or two if I needed to be. And kind of, yeah, follow the journey of the characters with the actors this time and see how that affected my directing style. Like so I haven't had that experience much really. So what did you find that was like different going into this more as just a soul director versus Cast Gatede, which is like you were co-creator, co-writer, co-everything. Well, the thing that was definitely different in terms of the directing process versus writing and directing is that you want to understand where the writer is coming from with every nuance that you don't necessarily know, like the subtext of it all. And like, what's the deeper meaning in this scene? Is this something the character is feeling? You have to question a lot more and really have a better relationship with the writers. Unfortunately, I do. So that was really helpful. And yeah, and then obviously having good writers that want you to be imaginative and tag the project and like add your own spin on it, like I was saying, is a bonus because they are not afraid to take risks and try something. And then if it's like not in the vein, then you're okay to like dot the bag, but if it's like, you know, kind of, ooh, didn't see that coming. I let that idea. And then it works out. I remember, you know, we were, it was summer 2022 and I called you and I said, I'm coming to Vancouver next week and we're doing a show. Are you down? And you're like, yes, I'm down. And I was like, I can't even begin to describe to you what this show is. I have to tell you in person. And I remember we went to the beach. We went to English Bay, if you're in Vancouver, you know, we sat there. Yeah, we have a photo and we sat there and I just tried to explain to you the chaos of the show, which wasn't even as chaotic as it ended up to be, you know, in terms of all the nuances and all the things that ended up happening, but just the surface level was crazy. And you, I just remember like your face being so bright and excited and you're like, I just cannot wait to get my feet in this and my hands in here. And I just that excitement like really got me excited. And then, you know, later on, I remember like right before because we really had such a quick turnaround. It was like a matter of a few weeks of finishing up writing, casting, booking studios, like everything. And I remember having a little bit of a breakdown and calling you, oh, never forget, I was in like a super store. And I was just like, do you think we should go for this because like there's just a lot, there was like, it was just very overwhelming. There was a lot of union things and a lot of just like pre-production stuff that we were both working on. Yeah, you just like takes like a couple months, didn't it? Exactly. Yeah. And then you're like, Adam, like we have to do this. Like we, like you gave me the confidence to do it and to like really push through all the chaos. And you said, you know, it's going to work out. And if it doesn't, it doesn't. But let's just go for it. And this is why you cannot not have you. And you're just the best. So. I just try to see the positive and like the potential and like you had such a stroke of genius inspiration with this. Like, yeah, we're in a couple of weeks without him. And I was like, this guy, he's touching something higher. So it's like, you just got to hang on to it. And then you just let it go. Thank you. And so we're going to like have that. That when you see the whole story fully formed in your mind, you're just like, you can't type fast enough. And the momentum was there. So I was just like, okay, anything I can do. do to support you all, help get the crafty all sorted out, you know, like everything in anything, driving around doing stuff, like writing tweaks, anything like that. I'm just trying to do something. - But that was the thing, you know, you jumped in and you started adding nuances to it. We started talking more about the characters and you were also just like editing out the script as well. So I consider you as part of the writers as well because you really did add a lot of it to it, you know? - No, thank you for that. I think you guys did a lot of a great foundation and the story was so solid coming in that it was, I want to honestly, easy to elevate the material, like versus like kind of pulling it up from the grave, you know what I'm saying? If it was like so bad words, like, ah, there's no, anything. - Scraping it together, yeah. - Thank you. - It's what you see, it's what's happening. No, it wasn't like that at all. It was so well formed and well thought through, even right to the very end, where, you know, did we, did we like kind of tweak the ending as we were going to character, I feel like it was-- - We did, we did. I mean, my problem with writing is that I overwrite sometimes and I feel like you help me pull it back or tighten it up and make it more, like just, yeah, like tighter and smoother because I feel like I write a lot. And you're just like, you know, it's great, but we should just condense it. And that's the best part, right? 'Cause it gets to the nuance of it. - I love that about us, I love that. - So for this, because like Cascadia was super sci-fi, super like, you know, a lot was going on, action kind of show, this is a little more chill and not so sci-fi-ish. What was your kind of tactic on going into it and working with kids as well? - Yeah, I mean, one of the first things that came to mind is like we need to see these kids grow through this traumatic experience and like to hear that in their voices. It was something that I really wanted to hit with this, especially with Algon when, you know, in the beginning, he's like graduating middle school and like he's going into summer and like, he's got like that, obviously like this teen-esque energy. But by the end of the series, he's saving his brother from a psychotic murderer, you know? It's like that is a huge evolution of the mind. So it's like, okay, how do I communicate that? Directly through that actor. So when we were doing certain scenes, I was, you know, hamming up a lot of like his arms and like if it's like earlier in the series versus his new form in the mature state towards the end. - Totally. - Direct with the tone and sure of himself and maybe even more of like an adult frustration versus like a child like chaotic one. Like these were the kind of things that I was kind of percolating, especially just with Algon, particularly some of the other characters definitely as well. While some of them did have much of a chance to evolve, like the kids I got abducted obviously. And, you know, the cutting around that, where we had broad version of their recording and then your version of that recording very separately recorded. Just so we could protect their young minds from the trauma of a guy yelling at them. - I mean, we did record a lot with them, but then like certain lines where I was like swearing or screaming at them, we definitely made sure that they were not in the room because I was like, I actually didn't feel comfortable. I was like, I know the executive decision for this child to leave this studio when I swear at him. Or, you know. - Good choice to leave it on that part. But trying to think of other characters like Princess' character and her kind of evolution, like she kind of came through like episode two or three and was kind of, Algonne's guy through the story and like just there for two. - I love you. - So she was kind of like the mature aim for him. I don't know if I'm getting off track with the question here, but. - No, no, no. - Just trying to think of the developments that we kind of planned out. - What was your tactics for like working with kids? Like, did you, have you worked with kids before? - Oh yes, tons of times. I have the lucky fortune of working with kids on set all the time. And I've mentioned this before that I always try to just get on their level at first. And then just break the ice with just understanding where they're coming from, their interests. Like, how do I talk to them on their level? And with the actors that came into the studio, we only got a couple of days, sometimes even just one to really break the ice. So you just have to have that like light energy coming into it and like see what they bring to the table for the material, meet them where they are and then just start to build, slowly take after take after take after take. Because everyone gets warmed up, right? Even the adults, they just need that, that moment that time to like feel like there's no pressure, creating that safe environment on set is key. And respecting their limits is another thing. So I think if you really just keep those things in mind and just like go with the flow in a way, have what you need in the back of your mind. It's like this is what I'm aiming for as like a director creator and trying to get from the scene. But let me see what this kid can do. And like understand how I can massage it into a way where it's like I'm gonna get the best out of them. And then you find something new sometimes or you get like 80% of the way there. And you're like, you know what? At least it's better than 50 or zero. So for so good with that. - Yeah, you were so good with like, you're always like really good with that. Like being patient with the actors or just like, kind of like letting them do what they want first. And then you kind of go around and tweak or add or like sprinkle some stuff onto it. You always tell me I'm like, should we do a rehearsal with the actors beforehand? You're like, no, no, no, no, no. I want them to go and kind of and show me what they have. And then we can kind of modify it on the day. And I love that. - Let the actors lead the action and the director direct them. - Yeah, I love that. I love that. - It's like a trust between the two creators. Because if like the actor feels like I can't take any risks or say anything because it's not with the director wants, then there's like this like undertone of like fear and tension. That might work for a character. If you really want to bring that to the table where like you want this character to feel like they're constantly in fear of something. So if like you're the director and like you bring that, that might work for somebody. But that's literally like a case by case. I wouldn't really do that. - Totally. - To that. - Yeah, trust is important. So that's how you do it. - It's really interesting because Algan and Olivia, they're friends in real life. They were friends in real life. And I remember when we were, they were doing a lot of their scenes you and I were in the control room just kind of jumping up and down. Cause we only did one or two takes with a lot of those scenes, you know, the scene in episode two where they meet a live, where he meets Olivia. And those kind of scenes, you know, and I was like, they're so good and you know, they're so good and we were like, let's just let it roll. You know, and I think a lot of it was because of the chemistry which I thought was really cool. 100%, you can get lucky and like two actors can just click and then riff and then add to the material like we were saying in ways that we never saw. And then like you get it and two takes you like, well, it's gold. So we can go for diamond if you want. - Yeah. - If you guys want, we have the diamond. I mean, but we got what we need and like that's, it's sometimes you're like, how are we so lucky? But take it in stride because sometimes you're not so lucky and it takes 12 takes. - Exactly. - To get plugged in. - Exactly. But you know what, we finished this show. We were scheduled for five days and we did it in four because those actors worked so hard. They were so good, especially the kid actors. The kid actors were coming in and they knew their lines more than I did and I wrote the damn thing. And I was like, oh my god, like I was like blown away by them. They were so prepared, so professional. I just, I was like so impressed by everybody on the cast. Everyone was just so freaking prepared and professional. I don't know. - And each kid sounded so unique too. Like they didn't have the, they didn't sing the ice cream song the same way as they were with the other kid. Like they kind of had their own like an approach to the material as well, which are like they kind of, like they may obviously kid sounding but they sounded different as kids. I think it's important in audio series to have different sounds. - So let's talk about Bobby because Bobby's one of my favorite characters. How did you kind of come to the approach of directing Eric Hicks who plays Bobby to be that kind of 1980s cringy dad, that guy? That's like, he's just, you know, I think he's like a younger dad, you know. I'm sure he had like his kids in his late teens or like 20s. What was your kind of approach to that, you know, directing him? - I think the material really aided that because the other Adam was obviously older from like that time. So a lot of the context like even Bobby played off of. So like the details were the things that like, you know, like Darth Vader jokes with them at the breakfast table and like, and just his general promise as like a person. Like he's very like friendly and like-- - Matthew McConaughey and I like to joke. - Yeah. - He's kind of almost like that in person, but different. So it was kind of just like, let's just like let him loose. Sometimes we just like keep rolling and then he would just keep tagging it. And it's like, okay, you're just getting it, man. Like the casting was awesome again on this show. So. (sighing) (sighing) - Duster. I am your father. Come with me and we shall be breakfast as father and son. - What is this? - What do you mean, what is this? It's a Darth Vader pancake. You don't see that? Really? The mouth is right here. The eyes are here. - It looks like a blob, dad. - Oh, I tried, okay. - I'm trying to think of this. If there's any moments where I had to like, corral him. Oh, yes. There was a scene when Algon's brother obviously goes misindustin and he's kind of like shell shocked by the whole thing. And like I remember I had to like basically funnel his emotions down to like more devoid of what's happening because he's such like a present guy as a parent in like the series thus far. So it was harder for him to like, let go and be like, oh yeah, he's over there. And like just like totally like zone out. I just wanted to see him hear him in shock versus seeing him. If we were filming it, I would have had a different approach. Like obviously like a bank expression, maybe a central focal point which would tell what the eyes would I want to convey. But with the audio, you had to do it audio. So it was like, okay, like let's just have you more separated from the present. - This is associated. - Tell their mom. Yeah, it just associated like, what am I going to say? - I'm going to say it. Thank you. to tell their parent and their mom, like you're in your own mind, you're outside of the situation at this point. So that was the only scene where I felt like I had to direct him in a different way than he was naturally just inclined to go. So with Officer Wilson, that's another good one because she is, you know, Adam, I just spoke about this. Like she was kind of that force that was very calming but still kind of maternal and neutral and she also had to deal with Officer Bennett, who was just misogynistic at times and very just obnoxious. Who by the way was a last minute, very last minute character, I met Brock who played, he plays Officer Bennett and I met him through one of my good friends in Vancouver the time when we were, I was in Vancouver preparing for the show and I was like, you know, Officer Bennett was a very small one line here, one line there kind of role but I met Brock and I was like, wait, wait, you are literally Officer Bennett, excuse me, not in the misogynistic way of course but just like he had that kind of cloundery kind of goofy vibe and I was like, wait, no, no, I got to have you more on the series and so we expanded on his character but a very last minute and I'm so happy that we did because it gave Officer Wilson something to kind of riff on. Oh, Wilson, you want some ice cream? I'm fine Bennett, thanks. Alright, suit yourself. What are you doing? That's evidence. Come on, relax. It's grenadine. The test results came back negative for blood. Jesus Christ Bennett, what the hell are you thinking? I think that grenadines are really great topping for ice cream. Can you be an idiot at your own desk, please? What's your problem? Why are you so busy? Huh? That time of month again? Are you even the slightest bit suspicious of Alex Jones? You know what, I'm not. Look, we did our due diligence. Okay, we did a thorough investigation and nothing came of it. I'll admit it. Guy and his wife weird but they're clean. What bugs me is that you're focusing on him and not any other suspects. I don't know. What about the creepy old guy that lives down the street? You think about him? Lauren was a really great actress off the cuff. So even just her baseline talking is almost Officer Asco already, like, he almost wanted to salute her when you meet her. She's very like, not authoritative, but she's very grounded in the way she speaks. She must have been trained in some way. I remember coming into the booth and filming it with a lot of the takedown scenes and just kind of creating a new energy because she was so solid. I wanted to try to get some different stuff and like, I kind of used that as apparently as my back pocket tool where I come in and film the actors doing the audio recording because it just kind of creates a new energy in the room, a new person's there. There's new device there. They're on camera so they're more conscious of like, like, their facial features and like that on the intern affects the audio because they're internalizing those emotions more vividly versus just thinking about the material reading a page or their lines or something and spitting it out. There's a different element there and like blocking it out with her when they were shooting Mr. Handsome. So she was like, yeah, it was mostly that for her in terms of direction is just changing the energy to get something different. Not to say that anyone was more or less harder to direct. It was just everyone approach everyone has a different approach, right? Like communication. I remember Brock even when we were doing his stuff, he was so disgusted with the things his own character was saying. But when they came out of his mouth, he like, it sounded so genuine, you know, a good trait of an actor. So he really, he really killed it even his scene with Alcaton. He's like, give it him a quarter to go call his dad. He wouldn't even let him use the police phone. I want to tell you love that scene. I love that. I love editing that scene and then like just to have it all come crashing down at the end of the episode when when officer Bennett or officer Wilson's like, what? He was here. What? You didn't let him call. It was just so satisfying to listen to because I'm like, yes, because Bennett sucks. Yes. Bennett? You okay? Oh, yeah. No, it's that kid, elegant. He came in tonight just before you got here. He did? What did he say? He said he saw Alex getting children and I didn't believe him until I'm the leave. Are you kidding me, Bennett? What? He's been saying crazy shit from the start, okay? Don't announce the proof. I thought he was playing some dumb game on us, especially since we just cleared Alec and Eleanor's house. You fucking unbelievable. Where are you going? To do my job. Unlike you. The flashback episode. That's a whole different episode. We actually recorded that whole episode in a day in Toronto. So what was that like? Because you know, I mean, it was kind of like a whole, it's like an interlude episode. It's so different. The whole flashback episode. We had a whole new cast, a character's essentially except for Eleanor and Enhancer. What was that like? You know? Well, we had that huge scene with the Bales above and Mr. Henson, which is like the huge reveal of like the why behind all of the what in the story and like what's motivating him and his character and his narrative arc. And yeah, people were like, wow, I couldn't believe I could feel sympathy for this guy, but I got to do. He's kind of trying to rock in a and a demigod, if you will. What's the opposite? I don't know what they call it, but I'll put it in my head. But yeah, I was like directing Steven who plays Bales above. You know, how did you how did you approach like going towards like directing a demon? Because I remember telling you I was like, I don't want, you know, this like, ah, demon character. I wanted it to be realistic as much as we could, you know? And I think we tried, I remember we tried variations of the voice and we went like we went to the moon and then back to the ground and then we found the sky and like that's where we wanted to stay. And there was moments where you felt like he was more human-esque. And then moments where he kind of spoke godly and like like old older and like wiser and like the way the language he chose. Which was interesting because it's like this guy can like, he's not really a guy. He's like a being of sort, but he's kind of like communicate to to Mr. Henson's character in a way where he understands him and like the audience will understand him especially. So that was really cool to see him kind of rain that horse in and like ride it kind of in a way where it's like still going to stay within the lines but be like this wild, wild bull in a sense. That's that's kind of like the metaphor I'm using and when I was directing him. I know. So okay, I want him to sound like not human as well, but I don't want him to sound like like corny or anything like candy that way. So it was kind of like trying to keep your your feet on the ground but your head your head and the clouds at the same time when it when it was like with him and he did a great job. I remember we did a lot of takes just to get different options of his his monologue and his conversation with you and he killed it of course. He killed it and you know he's he's an acting coach here in Toronto and I was so happy that he wanted to be a part of this because he's kind of like a legend here and I was like so thankful that he wanted to be a part of it and you know I talked to him like I said on on 911 plus on Apple podcasts and we did our own in depth in depth interview and you know I said how did you approach how did you prepare for this you know and he said you know I wanted to let the words and the text be the horror you know I was just kind of being grounded and saying how I felt and I was you know he's like I was so thankful that Antonio and you didn't want this like like you said like kind of like corny can't be demon it was all in text and then you know we added that little kind of filter at the end you know in post-production not just elevated it to the next level and I love that he had a little bit of a fly filter like it's like a kind of to his voice which I think was really fun because he is you know the Lord of the Flies. I know when I first heard it I was shocked shocked to think that one could prolong life by slaughtering a child but then they all got to die sometime so why not in service to someone you love no here we are you find the children feed their tiny little tasty souls to me through worship in return I will make sure the child's skin will produce what you need to prolong Elinor's life oh I tell you what I'll even make the skin cells age are backwards to radiate beauty and you can resume living this so-called perfect all-american life that you so desperately love and she can live love is a many splendid thing Elinor wouldn't you give anything to save her let's talk about mr. handsome sure this is the big one you know and I think the hardest directing challenges character character because I'm a sh*t actor honestly this would have been hard for Joaquin Phoenix to kind of came down to be honest it was a lot and it was hard and you know I really with cascadia it was like I was really learning the ropes of this medium I was doing the producing I was I didn't direct obviously cascadia but I was doing producing acting co-writing all the things and it was very hard but I felt like Declan was an easier character to play because he is. like just a regular guy obviously who has baggage and who has like, who's in a horrible circumstance, but I can kind of just play myself through his shoes. Whereas handsome, there was different layers to it and it was very kind of tricky to navigate that. And so I really felt like with ice cream this time around, I kind of let all the producing stuff take a backseat and I really, really want to just focus on the acting and thank God for you because I just let myself fall into you and you just directed me and coached me and kept me there. Like you did with Cascadia, but with Cascadia, like I said, I thought I was able to be more flexible. So let's talk about him because I just talked to Adam and we talked about how we weren't really sure how we wanted to approach this character. We didn't know if he should be kind of like a sci-fi kind of creature that's not human or maybe he is human in these more of a serial killer. And then we kind of found the two, but I just want to hear your approach on, I'll talk about my approach in a bit, but I want to hear your approach to the character and how you approach directing me. Right. When I read almost a deck. What I read was the answer and the character and the story. I kind of had this, this kind of reflection of this guy is everything all at once. He can, he's obviously immortal and like has lived many lifetimes. So his like cultural intellect is like beyond anything that any living person could ever even hope to achieve. But he's walking among people. So he can't stand out, which was really cool and interesting because that means he could be a chameleon and like he would just adapt to any situation he was in and would be able to read and pick up on all the subtext context body language that we all do. He's had centuries of practice. So like you can almost never fault him. He could almost be like a perfect liar. So it was almost like this guy has no flaw and like in the social context of things. So I was just trying to think like almost like directing children. How does Mr. Handsome become a part of his environment when he's with Dustin and Elgin on the street when they're skateboarding is different than when he's with let's say a kid getting the right the usual you know versus a parent coming over to talk to him and you know get a little backstory. He has all these things like switches ready to go and turn on in his head. Right. But what his world starts to kind of become unraveled with the return of the Elzabab. That's when we start to feel like I like for me directing. I was like that's where I want to start to see the real guy. The guy that was born centuries ago into this life because that's all triggering those old emotions. So up to that point it was all like Mr. Handsome you're going to become this version of Mr. Handsome then this version of Mr. Handsome and then this version of Mr. Handsome. And you're just like basically yeah putting out these versions of yourself that are well rehearsed well buttoned up until we show everyone who you really are and then that will be like that's the true sense of the character towards like the last episode where you're running around the warehouse trying to kill Elgin and Princess. Yeah. And Olivia sorry. I was having a hard time with this character even though I wrote the damn thing. I was having a hard time getting inside of him. I wasn't sure how to approach it. I wasn't sure how to go about it until you said that to me. You said Adam he has a he's a chameleon. He has different versions of himself like how we all do you know. It's interesting. You know the way you talk to your teacher is different than how you talk to your friends on the playground. It's it's as simple as that. And you know Handsome he's you know when he's with the kid the beginning of the series is why he talks like he's like a child you know like we talk about his discourse is really high intellect for sure. Right when he talks to Elgin he's more mature like a little more mature but like he met he mirror you said it perfectly he mirrors who he's speaking to you with with Officer Wilson he he mirrors more of an adult approach when he's talking about you know his kid he's more of an adult vocally so vocally was interesting for me to to go to all these different ranges I've never experienced a really good job with that. Thank you thank you but then even at the end of the episode where I'm like fully demonic screaming you know very that base vibes as well it was so fun and again I don't think I would have been able to do that without you kind of just like sitting down with me and like talking about it and like yeah coming at me with that kind of angle and that's how I got into the character and I had so much fun with it I had so much fun with it and I think you're right he's him he does mirror and that's yeah very various reasons for that yeah. Yes and I feel like that character can be done over and over and over again through multiple stories over time because of that ability of just being alive for so long and it's interesting because when he finds Eleanor he wants to he wants to become human and it's like does he want this to be his last life and like having that like that supplied in the back of your mind is like well like what does that mean like how would he live that life having lived so many that's stuff that I was thinking about even though it has no kind of sway on the story and the happening but it's like that's a choice he's making with that monologue when he's explaining that to Algan you know and like he's having that almost like faux sentimental heart to heart with him about what's what what this all means and what he wants Algan to be and like that kind of revival of that life that was kind of taken away from him from bail bail the bug because of his debt that he owed so I was like well it's kind of like interesting almost movie and in itself side plot movie yeah and I think you know I mean yes the show has a lot of like it's not really jump scare horror but there's a lot of horror elements to it but I think really the true horror in all of this is you know one you can marry like Eleanor she married a demon and that it is like you could take that with the grain of salt because maybe obviously the person like like in real life is an a demon but they might have demonistic ways or I don't even know if that's a word but like you know or like like history that is baggage is baggage but like like horrible baggage and maybe they try to be different but maybe that baggage can come up to the future in the present and that's kind of right like a metaphor to what we were kind of going for and that's the true horror that you know something can happen in your life and your life will change and go on the wrong path and then you have no choice but to deal with that and you know handsome his past comes up and creeps up on him and like you said he owes his dues either yeah he owes his dues and it cost him his son and you know he got this choice where it's like okay do I go back to the fold or do I continue to live this all-american life with my wife and save her at least but at that cost it cost a lot of kids and humans and then it kind of humanizes him in a way where it's like you think about that you're like holy shit like what would I do if I was in that situation yeah hopefully not do what he did but it's like what else do you do I don't know it's a very like there's a level to it he pays a big price to have what he feels like he he's been he's been he the hard part about it all is because he's like he's trying to like forge a new path and like change and change his ways right he finds love and he wants to leave that demonistic element behind and he's like I'm just trying to get away like I'm not even trying to like do anything but be as much as you can't do it yeah yeah it was a great it was a great experience to do it with having a cascadia done and that was kind of like the ice breaker this one was more of like a polished thing like you said we did it in the last days and we thought we would the the the actual like context of like the actual theme and like the actual tone of the whole piece was different so the pace and energy was different and like how to direct under those circumstances it's like you almost want to keep the energy up sometimes yeah and now that it get too too stale and they have those peaks and valleys were cascadia that was already built in to like literally the day of the days like we were starting with high energy scenes and like crashing and literally almost falling asleep on the mic by the end of the day some days they were literally spent like emotionally and like they couldn't stand up anymore um I just I just love doing these it's just like it's different it's different than film like in a way that you can't really put a finger on like part of the creation happens in the mind of the listener and like having direct like the right direction where you're not putting your hands on it too much and you're leaving some ambiguity in the right places in the right ways that just makes the context so rich it's like having like I think I said in the other interview we did earlier is like you're with another creator obviously that we're having like the best worlds of like the book and the music and the film elements all in one where like you can build out this imaginative world with these characters look like it's just a fun experience I can't wait to do more of them ice cream was a great a great thing I never done a horror a stif not even sci-fi sorry a horror element story before um so that was kind of a first for me and I like that it wasn't a jump scare story and was more of like the maker skin of crawl house sickening this but it wasn't gory right like there's not like it's like huge blood it's just like the whole idea of it it's and that's the whole thing with audio it's so psychological this was a perfect horror for that so I was really happy that I got this opportunity to do it yeah I just I I love it too and even just like sound designing this one was so different than sound designing cascaded you know set cascaded yeah I mean I really like you and I we really work on or you said it best too one time you said to me you're like it's it's if we can visualize it while we're writing it then the audience will be able to visualize it if we can hear it we can hear the soundscape then they'll be it'll be way easier in the editing and that's I think so important when we're doing our writing is that we we tried to write it as if it's a film or it's a TV show you know yeah we can't explain it then it shouldn't be in there you know any mean if we can't explain through audio should be or we we should find another way yeah yes absolutely without trying to without saying oh my god there's a car over there you know like what kind of other contextual clue. can we do with the setting, the people, the blocking to give that visual clue of what you assume is happening because it's never said to me. Totally. Sometimes, right? It's like, oh, well, they're in a room and I hear dinner plates, so they must be having dinner or they're having breakfast. And then you're slowly building out, okay, like, what are they having? What's that going to smell like? You're tapping into the senses in a way that's just audio with these little clues. So yeah, and Bobby said it best in one of those scenes. He goes, oh, guys, watch out. It's high. It's just come off the barbecue. So, you know, we didn't say what they're eating, but we know it's barbecue food. There was a scene at the beginning of first episode where, you know, Algonz graduating and the mom gives him a present and he goes, what is this? And she says, open it. And we had fun with not telling it right away. We let the listener have him open it and then he said it, right? We could have been like, she could have said it right away. And then he said it. So we built it up. You know, so that's we're having fun with that as well. And I think from what I've seen, like listeners enjoy that as well. You know, with the soundscape for this, I thought that it would be really fun to. I really was listening to a lot of 1980s music. I was listening to a lot of ambiance and like, vapor wave music, which is like kind of instrumental music that was used in the 80s, a lot of the time. I was listening to that throughout the entire writing process and the recording process and the editing process. I was so inspired by that. And I thought that it helped a lot with telling this story. We got to use some amazing, amazing musicians time cop 1985. And he let us just his dialogue. That's all that. Yes, yes. And like, Bobby loves singing that song. He was, he was, yes. We recorded that not knowing that we would get that song. And I was like, I'm going, we recorded one for safety. I remember that just without the song in case. But I was like, we will get this song. I don't care. And we did. And, and you know, that helps the show so much, you know, getting this kind of music as well. And again, the music in cascadia was so different than this. cascadia was very much futuristic sci-fi ambiance, dark ambiance. But this is also like, this was more like 1980s. Like I said, vapor wave dark ambiance as well. Just different vintage style. And I just thought that was a lot of fun to do. It was a hit. It was a hit on so many levels. And like, we took that gamble, took that chance, pushed it. And, you know, with the next project we do, we're going to try to take more time. But not too much time. Because like, that pressure does make diamonds in a way. Like, we do. I agree. With time on the our back, like, we do kind of work of faster, harder, smarter. And like, we're not like, kind of like, like, like, like, las is fair towards it. It's not like a, like, a light approach. It's like, we're, we're passionate. We're serious. And we're bringing our heart to it. Because the app, the time is ticking as well. So it's a nice thing to have that. I think, you know, I realized that like, like you said, the pressure of getting something out, like you said, we work better under pressure like that, you know? But I think it's important that we don't rush it. And we never have rushed anything. We've made sure that we didn't put anything out until it was fully fleshed out and the hat we were happy with it. Even if it's on the day of release. Yeah. You know, there were some days I was late for this. And I was like, I don't care. I rather it be, you know, quality than just have it on time, you know? And, and I think, you know, a lot of that comes with just the writing and making sure that we're confident with our writing. And then once the writing is solid, then we can go into studio and then everything else kind of falls into place. But it's just making sure the writing is the strongest. Success, the foundation for everything else, you know? For sure. Character development, world building, all of that comes from a good script. You got to have it. The arrow's your up a creek without a paddle. One last question. Sure. Well, when is cascadia season two? People, you know what? I'm super excited about cascadia season two. There was, there was, we've been working hard at it literally all year trying to do it right because sequels either suck or they're superb. It's literally door die. So we really wanted to get it right. I'm telling you guys, I think we're getting it right. I can say that with confidence. And I'm really happy of where this at where this season is going. It's going to feel the same, but super different. And that's really what we wanted to do with the sequels. Like we want the same elements that were successful from the first, you know, series of people love the characters setting and other stuff that I don't want to give too much away about. But in season two, it's it's coming and you're going to love it. I'm telling you. And you know, there was a lot of starts and stops and scraps and restarts and that and that was, you know, and it's fine. And I think, you know, it's interesting with us because, you know, we wrote cascadia during the pandemic and we didn't think it would do as well as it did and have all these ears. And there was a little bit of a pressure to come back to it and to make sure that it followed up to having, you know, the success of the first season. And I I felt like I there was a lot of time through. I told you I said, no, let's just let it be. Let it simmer. Let's just, you know, because we were both kind of kind of having a little bit of a writer's block. And we were like, we have to trust the process. Yeah, we would try things. And then it wasn't going anywhere in that we would scrap it. And, you know, it took a lot of the year. But I had faith that it would come to us. And it has come to us. And sometimes it took a moment like, like, like, taking like doing ice cream to walk away and take a break from cascadia and just completely different just to circle back and and be like, okay, no, this is, we've let's let's get it. And now we've been on this. We'll stay. We'll stay. Yeah. Exactly. And 100% agree. And like I said earlier, you know, I rather do it right than rush it out. You know, I'm so thankful. I know you're so thankful for all the people who are listening and wanting the more of it. But I rather do it right than have it pumped out. Just a little more patience, guys. You will love it. And if you're listening to this after cascadia season two has come out, please tell me if I was right or if we were right. Yeah. In this estimation. But it's not about that though. You, like you said, like, it's about just doing our best work. And then if it does well, as well, it doesn't, it doesn't, but as long as we're happy with it and our fans are happy with it, then that's that's true. That's true. We just love the fans so much. We want them to be happy too. Exactly. It's a pencil disappointed by season two. We try our best. Yes. But it's coming. It's coming. It'll be there very soon. I promise. Yeah. Well, Antonio, but I think, yeah, thank you so, so much for doing. Thank you. It's always a part of your talk to you. I'll see you really soon. Love you, buddy. Of course. Thank you all for listening. If you made it to the end of this episode and I didn't bore you to death, I appreciate you guys all for being here. This is not possible without you. And I just want to immensely thank each and every one of you wherever you are in the world. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Whatever language you speak. Creed culture and all around. Blessings to you. Thank you so much. Thank you. We love you. Thank you so much for listening to the Making of Ice Cream. You can follow me, Antonio and Adam on our socials, links in the show notes. Like I said, at the beginning of the show, if you want more ice cream, feel free to subscribe to our 911 Plus on Apple podcasts where you'll get ad-free clean versions of the show. You can also get a super cut version of the series, which is perfect for long road trips and flights. We also have in-depth interview with the cast on our new show called Unscripted. Over 40 hours of content is waiting for you right now on 911 Plus on Apple podcasts. All proceeds go towards making more content and shows for you. Thank you so much for your support and we'll talk to you soon.