The making of a BCLP partner: commercial growth behind the scenes | Commercial Awareness Compass #59

Hello and welcome to the commercial awareness compass, your weekly guide to thinking like a commercial lawyer. Each episode we explore a key issue shaping the legal and business landscape, helping you to build the clarity and confidence to discuss it by breaking it down to three levels, beginner, intermediate and advanced. This week we're talking about career progression and how commercial awareness and business development evolve on the journey all the way from trainee to partner. I'm Sam, a law conversion student and future trainer solicitor, and today I'm joined by two lawyers from BCLP, Daniel and Jess, which I'd like to introduce yourselves and tell us a bit about what you do. Thanks, Sam. I'm Jess Hopewell. I am a senior associate in the real estate disputes team at BCLP. I joined BLP as was in March 2013 as a trainee and I have stayed here ever since. I qualified into the real estate disputes team and I advised on a wide range of contentious property matters. So essentially anything involving a dispute and property, I can help. That might be landlord and tenant issues, asset management queries, development constraints. My role involves managing active disputes, but also identifying and hopefully stopping disputes before they even get started. I think it's a really interesting job because you get to become a subject matter expert in very weird and wonderful elements of property that you never thought you'd get to learn about. So it's a challenging role that I enjoy every day. And I'm Daniel Bernand. I'm a partner here in our commercial real estate team. Similarly with Jess, I work in the real estate sector group, but I work on the transaction side. So think of anything from buying and selling for institutional overseas investors, priority funds, sorry, wealth funds, as well as sort of long-term redevelopment programs, region programs, as well as everything that goes around that. So financing, joint venture structuring, our own advice on the property elements of those. Equally, like Jess, I've also been at the firm quite a while and I was a trainee here at the firm. So pretty institutionalized. Fantastic. Thank you. I don't think there's anyone better to be joined by than two people who've gone all the way from training to the top ranks of a firm to talk about that sort of development. And so just to start with the beginner section, I want to try and understand how lawyers continue to grow commercially once again to the office because I know as myself and I was looking to get my training contract, I was thinking a lot about, oh, this commercial way and this thing's really important, but then what does it mean once they actually start working? And so just to begin with that, Daniel, how do you train youth at BCLP typically get early exposure to clients or commercial issues once they've started? I think it's really important to get that exposure early on and we really encourage trainees both to engage directly with clients and also start thinking about the wider commercial aspects that are important to that client from the outset. For a trainee, that might be quite simple things like being copied into correspondence, being joined into client calls. If we have internal strategy discussions or we're talking about the deal, ensuring the trainees are a part of that discussion within the real estate department is even more hands-on. So it's a bit like a baptism of fire. But within real estate, you essentially as a trainee learn all of those key skills that you need to carry throughout your career. So the idea of receiving heads of terms, drafting a document, negotiating that document with the other side, taking instructions and then essentially completing the document at the end are all things which a trainee can do, but with a simple or more straightforward document. So it might be a license and those skills they can then take forward because as they progress throughout their career, things will get more complicated, the matters get more complicated than negotiations get more complicated. What's important about that is that they develop their communication skills, they're interpersonal skills and for the modern tech enabled workplace, I think those are really essential wider commercial skills to develop. And we've really emphasized that understanding of the clients business model and ensuring that every trainee understands the importance of the work they're doing and how that work then fits within the wider picture helps them to see how they're contributing to excellence, which they're contributing to doing with really more work. Arches is very like a sort of hands-on approach to try and build confidence on sort of easier matters and then as they become more senior, so I'm just going to use to create that confidence that they've built on those may be simpler or maybe more straightforward matters and then applying them to more complex things. Absolutely and I think it's important to think about the development of those technical skills, which we can talk about a bit later in the bridge, that internal confidence in terms of advising clients, but that process helps them to start build that confidence to engage with clients and think about the matter, think about what's the bigger picture of the deal they're working in and all of that contributes to that broad commercial awareness of what's important for the client and what's the service that they need. Brilliant, thank you and so to both of you, both been supervisors being a senior associate and a partner, I imagine quite a few trainees. So what role is that that you play as supervisor and mentors in helping trainees to understand how law firms win and retain work? And I think I would echo a lot of what Daniel has said, I think particularly in terms of like retaining work, there's two parts to that, there's doing the actual legal work and getting the right answer, but there's also maintaining and developing the client relationship, that's an important part of how you retain work as well. And I think it's really important as the supervise that you are modelling both of those things for trainees. So it's all of the things that Daniel talked about in terms of actively involving trainees and files. So trainees can see what good looks like in terms of responsiveness and how you present legal advice because how you present it in practice is very different to how you present it in law school for instance. And also just how you interact with clients, how you talk to the local phone, how you present your emails. And I think giving trainees as much exposure to client work as possible as Daniel said is so important and ideally you would have trainees taking the lead on smaller matters or if not that at least involve them in like the meetings and calls so they can see how the advice is presented. And I think it's it's really helping trainees to understand that clients aren't necessarily going to see the title trainee, they will see BCRP. And as training you are a representative of the firm and trainees play as much of a role in maintaining and developing good client relationships as I do as a senior associate and Daniel does as a partner. So that's what I would sort of say to that. I completely echo that and the opportunities that you have as a trainee within our firm to get that client exposure early on are incredible. It can feel daunting but there's a support network there but equally once you do have that client facing role. As Jess said it doesn't matter what you're working on. You are delivering a service from BCRP and it's important to remember where a service industry. So if you go into the restaurant and the first person that greets you is rude, it doesn't matter how good the food is your experience has been ruined. And I think it's understanding that everybody within our firm plays such an important role of delivering excellence and once had a mentor that spoke about delivering fabulous execution and he said everything had to be fabulous execution but it's remembering to turn up every day and do your best, deliver excellence and ensure that you take pride in the work no matter what that work is. Yeah I think my term fabulous execution is one that's very memorable, it's quite easy to speak with and I think as if you're going to be mentoring someone saying that it's stuck with you all these years later, it's clearly fantastic advice. So anyone listening, remember the fabulous execution always and so to Jess I just want to ask what does good commercial awareness look like in a training solicitor's days? So commercial awareness is about understanding the wider commercial context in which our clients operate it and in which we as a law firm operate. So as a trainee no one is expecting you to be a subject matter expert but what the best trainees do is demonstrate an interest and an understanding of what is going on in the market that we and our clients operate in. So in my team and in the real estate disputes team that's about understanding the big news stories in the property sector so the big cases that have been decided, any upcoming changes in legislation, listening out for sort of like announcements in the budget that is going to affect those working in real estate and so on and it's about reading news stories about clients that you're working with so you can sort of see the deals that they're doing and what's important to them as a business but I think it's really important that you're authentic with it so if reading the FT cover to cover doesn't work for you that's fine but you need to find a way that you can digest that information without it feeling like a chore. Yeah that's really interesting you bring up the idea of like a holistic view because I think it's a mistake that I fell into quite early on during my applications as well the idea that I had to try and be the subject matter expert on something which at the level when you're doing to apply especially you're just not going to be and I think going into trip like as you're starting your training contract for people at that stage it's very different from applications which is very different from once you're further in your career as all the expectations of you. And I think another thing as well that people sort of at the level of applying are thinking about is something like succumbents where that's another thing that a lot of firms will talk about and really put front and center and maybe people don't understand them necessarily. And so Jess, I know that you did a client's acumbent and these are often seen as quite a strong way to develop. So what are they actually like in practice for someone who's doing them or potentially as a trainee or even as a associate? So I've done two clients comments. I did one when I was a trainee doing a mix of commercial and litigation work and then I did one when I was a few years qualified doing just pure property litigation work. It's generally a fairly different feel to being in private practice. I think the lines of specialism aren't so delineated as they are in private practice. So you just get to have a go at everything. You get a really great variety of work. And I think you get a lot of autonomy because it's typically a less sort of hierarchical structure than you might find in a law firm. And I think the real value in succumbents is that you get to see firsthand how legal advice actually lands. So how that product that you get from your external law firm is actually packaged up and distributed internally. And I think that gives you as a trainee a better understanding or actually at any stage of your career, not just as a trainee, it gives you a better understanding of how that particular client business perceives risks or what its priorities are. And also the constraints that an in-house team might be under. And I think that's a valuable experience for anyone at any stage of their career. And then we pause there. Oh, hello. Sorry about that. As a case, um, did you manage to finish your answer on? Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic. So we'll go from there. Sorry, yeah. That's not happened before. So I might add. Really, thank you. And so if we're looking looking not just at clients, but also international succumbents, that's something that a lot of firms talk about, and especially with BCLP being an international firm, do they give a different sort of feel or an approach to or a different view to trainees or associates compared to that sort of holistic view you get in a sort of incline setting? Yeah, I think the important thing with international succumbents is it's a very different type of experience from the client's succumbent. I think first and foremost, I find the most beneficial type of succumbent for me will be working with the client for all the reasons that Jess has said in terms of understanding those client drivers, understand those client needs. What is good about working, especially if you haven't had the opportunity to work overseas, what's good about working in a different office overseas is you not just understanding the different way that law is being practiced in a different jurisdiction, but your understanding of different cultural context, I worked in Vietnam, prior to law for a few years, and understanding the importance of losing face, how business is done was essential not just for me developing my professional skills, but those interpersonal skills of understanding where people come from in different cultures, and you find especially in the international market that our legal sector is in. You will be delivering legal services to clients from around the world, especially in real estate, even though the actual assets may be based in the UK or across Europe. Our clients will come from companies which are in jurisdictions throughout the world and I think understanding the cultural context from which they're coming from is essential and that's where legal international succumbents can help. Thank you. I think that's really interesting you both touched on that there being more realistic approach that you get when you go into a succumbent, getting to see a bit more than just like the sort of work that you do, seeing the impact as well. And so I want to ask both of you, have you had any experiences yourself that have directly shaped sort of how you've then approached things after, was what sort of spoken about how to check how you thought, is there any way that you then maybe change how you work as a result of your succumbents or time abroad? I wouldn't say that I changed how I worked exactly, but the succumbent that I did as a trainee was was very valuable for me personally in essentially like humanising the clients for me. I think even on this podcast it's quite demonstrative of the way that lawyers talk about like the client. It's actually very rarely by name, you know what I mean, just say the client. So I think it can sometimes depersonise people and particularly an early stage in your career, it can make it quite intimidating to like pick up the phone for instance. So I think actually being in the office with clients five days a week made me realise that they're all just people, like everybody's watching this, love the generators, everybody wants to talk about like where they're going on holiday and it just may be so much more comfortable with just like reaching out to people, being like you know by telephone or sort of like business element activities like going for coffees and lunches. I think for me that was a really valuable lesson in that everybody's just people and everybody just wants to sort of do a good job and it's much easier to work with people if you have a good relationship essentially. So it may sound like a basic lesson but it was a very valuable one for me. I completely echo what Jess has said and maybe two points. The first just about the international international work side, I think one of the things I took away that I still carry with me today is the importance of communication and making myself understood. I think it's easy to be in the workplace and think about how that person is receiving that information whether they fully understood you and I think that skill of ensuring that when you communicate you're distilling your ideas or your questions or your queries into something that the other person it may be that you're going across a cultural divide, a language divide or just a professional divide but that person who's receiving that information actually understands and gets what you're saying. I think that's one of the key things that I took away from working in Asia. I think again everything that Jess said about making it a lot more of a personal experience when you're with the client. I heard a linguist come in with Crown Estate and some of those friendships that I made when I was at the moment, I still have today and I still advise the Crown Estate today and having that trajectory of being embedded within the client's organisation at a junior level as an associate, really understanding what's the specifics about how they work, what are important to them, what is their culture like which you can't really garner from just looking at the website has really helped me then when I'm now in a more strategic role or leading much larger complicated matters, being able to connect not just on a professional level in terms of understanding the cultural context from which my clients are coming from but also more importantly working with people that I've known for years. It's really interesting you both sort of pick out how it's that humanisation aspect and seeing people as people because I know it's almost sound silly if you've sort of maybe if you're still at university studying not a law degree but I think as someone who's doing the PGDL at the minute it really is interesting how a lot of the rest of the around law especially at that sort of vocational educational level is the client and they're not just they're not a person you may get a personal story but it's not a actual person if you see what I mean and it's interesting he both sort of taken that through your careers and how that sort of helped both of you develop and become better not just in the sort of doing the actual work but as the professional and the business development side of it. So I think if we just go onto the intermediate now I just want to think a bit more about how lawyers sort of move into that commercial advisory role that you're sort of talking about there and so Daniel at what point does a solicitor start to move from just doing the work to helping bring in the work. I don't think there's any one specific point I think it very much depends on your practice area and the individual so I think it's important to remember that that transition is going to be gradual and it is going to be sort typically we're spoken about the importance of your role with delivering excellence when you're a junior and I think at those years there's a real focus on developing that technical delivery being reliable but I think as you do then gradually develop you develop your technical expertise you start to be better at issue spotting as well as then spotting opportunities where you can loop in other people to provide additional services because you're effectively the eyes and ears on the ground of the firm so it may well be that you then start introducing colleagues from other practice areas or just taking part in extracurricular activities like DNI programs where you can then connect more broadly with the client and deepen that client's relationship across the firm. I think what stood out for me especially when I was in the run up to partnership was this concept of you don't all of a sudden one day join the partnership and then you're a partner and you then act like a partner it's a gradual process and in many ways to become a partner you already need to be operating at the level of being a partner which means that there is this nuanced overlap especially in your first couple of years of partnership we're actually there are certain things that you've been practicing and doing, either through senior associate and you'll continue to do those through Adios for Partnership career. So I think it's important to see it as more of a journey in terms of developing that commercial mindset. And I think the most important thing is to in that commercial context, think of yourself as developing that deep relationship with your client base as that commercial business partner, as well as becoming a technical and reliable lawyer. So would you say just stick on that briefly that is quite, you have to be quite self-starting with that or is that something where the firm tries to almost help and guide you into that role? I think there's a lot of different opportunities that you can get from the firm and the support that the firm will give. We have many programs in terms of developing the soft skills, as well as the technical skills which we're all drawing and support you as a lawyer. There are mentors at every level which, again, can really help support the development of your mindset. But I think what's important is you getting into the door is representative of you being extraordinary in a very competitive field and achieving your training contract. Then you qualify as an NQ, again, in a very demanding environment, but you've demonstrated that you have more than just what's needed on paper. There is something about you which has meant that you've managed to achieve qualification in an excellent firm. And I think finding that thing that's important about you and remembering that and keeping that throughout your journey is really important because what will distinguish you then as a great communicator or a great partner is that unique aspect. You're not just a carbon copy. There's something unique about you that you have developed. So yes, the firm can provide all of this training, but in terms of your ability to go out, connect with people, retain work and win work. That'd be something individual. And I'm a great believer that a lot of people, you know, everybody has something about them that's unique, but it's about trying to find that and remembering that across your journey because I think you can look, we've got one of the largest practice areas for real estate in the country. And when you look at all of the real estate partners that we have, I don't think you'll find any two that are exactly the same. And I think that's really exemplary of how there's no carbon copy approach to being a great business leader or a great lawyer. We're all individual and I think remembering that's important. It's really interesting you bring out the idea of that sort of personality and trying to almost keep what makes you unique all the way from training to when you become an NQ to them all the way through to partnership rather than trying to get lost and almost become trying to become corporate in a sort of maybe just idea of what that could be. And so Jess, as a senior associate, how are you then balancing your fear and enrols with starting to build client relationships and maintain that sort of personal touch? I think you have to be really disciplined and essentially see sort of business development and client relationship management as part of your job. Like everybody's busy, there are lots of demands on everybody's time, whether that's sort of like like in my case I've got a young family, but you know people might have might be training for marathon or have care giving responsibilities, but I have you. So I think you have to be very strict about carving out time that works for you to service that part of your job. So for me, I use my commute to catch up on like the news and sort of the commercial awareness piece that we talked about earlier in the podcast. And like nowadays there's lots of ways that you can digest that information. So I like podcasts personally because I get traffic so it doesn't really work for me to sort of read things on my phone on the go. And it means that I can sort of listen out for anything interesting or new that I can maybe share with a particular client. I also have a matrix of my client contacts and I go through that sort of once a month to see who I haven't contacted. And while we have a team meeting every week where we talk about the business development activities that we've got coming up and that's quite a good way to sort of keep you honest and make sure that you've got something to say and sort of bring to the table. So it's really about being disciplined with yourself. Brilliant, thank you. And so just to sort of round off this intermediate section, could you briefly outline what sort of specific mentorship or development opportunities there are at BCLP and how this may have supported yourselves in your progression to where you are currently? I think Daniel has already touched on some of the sort of like the great training programs that are in place at every stage of your career. And there's mentorship, whether sort of formal or informal. So when I qualified, I reached out to somebody who bit my supervisor in a completely unrelated seat like nothing to do with real estate and asked if he would just sort of be like an informal mentor. For me, as I've touched on somebody who is completely kind of independent but knows me and knows my strengths and also my development areas. So I found that that was something that worked for me. The other thing that I'd like to mention is BCLP's Global Sponsorship Program. So this is something that is available for senior associates and associate directors. And essentially, it's a way of encouraging you to stretch yourself and think about a way that you can meaningfully advance a client relationship. So it might be an event, it might be thought leadership, it might be just working on the client relationships sort of in general. But it's a really great opportunity to, it kind of goes back to that point. I was talking about the work group meeting and keeping you honest. It's a great way to encourage you to really take an active role in your career management. And I echo that and I think it's a great program, the Sponsorship Program. And equally, I think Jess is a great example as well of how when you have great associates and senior associates, they can then develop to become lead associates and have a key part in developing the client relationship management part of our business. So with key clients, we will set up teams that are focused on seeing how we can deliver work better, what work we're delivering and what further opportunities they are. And within those groups, that will be partners that are leading from all of their different practice areas, but also associates of which Jess is one. And those associates, senior associates play such a key role in terms of bringing together all of these different thoughts from the different practice areas and ensuring that everybody's keeping honest and focused in terms of how we can find and win more work and continue to deliver excellence. And so as we go into the advanced section now, I want to think a bit more about how the partner goes about winning work and always keeping each other honest as you were saying there and what your role looks a bit like, looks a bit more towards the commercial side of it. So Daniel, what does winning work actually mean as a partner in a UK law firm like BCLP? I think there's there's winning new work with new clients and there's winning new work with existing clients. And I think it's important to go, it's important to remember that it is more than just landing that big new whale of a client. The size of our real estate platform means that the size of clients that we win quite often aren't going to be won by just one individual. And there are different processes that different clients will go through in terms of choosing their law firm. Some of them are quite structured in terms of having a specific procurement policy and there's a process that each law firm will need to go through in terms of tendering work. Whereas other ones might just be based on sort of smaller clients, stronger personal relationships and people with autonomy within their organisations to select their legal advice. But I think it's important to remember that the no matter what route you go down, when you're a partner then trying to win business, you are going to be going with a service offering which is more than just your individual skill set. It may well be that the initial contact that you make with a client will be a coffee. It might be one deal experience. It might be through a networking event. But I think when you are then trying to land them as a client for the firm, you'll be looking not just at how can I, Daniel, provide sort of excellent real estate service. But what about the tax advice? What about the corporate structuring advice? What about risks in terms of development or if there's a potential risk of litigation? And actually even though it's a client that's based in the real estate sector, actually there are huge clients they may well have employment needs or they may have disputes that go much further than just my sector expertise. So we have this concept of hunting impacts. And I don't think there's any, whether it's, I don't think there's any instance where you as a partner feel like you're going to be alone in terms of trying to win that work because whether it's turning up for a pitch where you're sitting there on a panel and it will stretch where you might have three partners and associate and a trainee who will have a part in terms of presenting the BCLP platform and how we can win work. Or it may well be an instance where you're going for a coffee and, you know, I've got a clear example where recently somebody who's not a client said that their business line they're interested in in the more credit side of the real estate sector and so I know that there's a partner who's absolutely incredible with instructor finance and back leverage and asked if they wanted to see what's you know here about what's happening in the market and they were delighted and we're not sending up a coffee for that and it's exploring those opportunities and I think one key thing that somebody said to me about winning work is it's much easier to sell your brilliant colleagues than yourself sometimes you know some people are really great about just promoting themselves but actually singing the praises of who you work with and the platform you have if you are sometimes I mean yes I'd like to think myself as humble but you know sometimes you have to go your own trumpets with winning new work but I do think it's much easier when you're really promoting who's around you and the excellent platform you have to win that work. It's really interesting so it's not really you specifically as a partner winning works about the firm as a whole and the idea of being a firm and a partnership being important to that business side and so then how much of being a successful partner is about that legal expertise or how much is it more about the business and client strategy. I think it changes over time I think I think when you're more junior it is about technical expertise but by the time you sort of reach a senior associate station and certainly from being a partner and winning work it's just a given in terms of your technical ability you have to be excellent and I think then that added layer of why does somebody want to work with you you know when on paper they could look at the changes rankings and they could find five other partners who equally have worked on you know multi-billion pound deals and equally have a strong platform behind them why is it that they want to choose you and I think that's the importance of the interpersonal skills and I think you know Jess said it I think staying genuine throughout and realizing that you don't have to change yourself to really shine with those interpersonal skills and I think with alongside that with the advent of technology it's going to become even more important now when we have these tech tools at our disposal which cannot deliver any technically excellent answer the key the key difference in terms of how we will distinguish ourselves from any other tech provider or law firm will be how we take that information how we draw upon our legal expertise as a platform but then how we deliver it and how you deliver it is that human element which I think will be it's important now it's always been important but I think in the tech enabled it is going to become even more important I think that's been really interested the theme of the sort of podcast so far has been that human element and how as much as everyone can become really good at the work especially with the train you get a top firm like BCLP that you know being human recognising other people's human is almost the key to separating yourself and suggest just turning to your almost role as a mentor have you seen any traits or what are the traits you look for in junior lawyers who show leadership or senior potential I would echo what Daniel said in terms of I think the juniors who really stand out of those who who see themselves as a part of the team from day one so not just paper shufflers working in a vacuum but actually people who yes do the task that you've given them but then take the initiative and ask questions and are inquisitive and I think that applies to both the work that we're doing but also wanting to learn more about the needs of particular clients as well so I think people who can sort of who show that they're trying to understand that wider commercial context of both the firm and the client that we talked about at the beginning I think is it's so important and it's such a green flag in genius brilliant thank you and so both just quickly to round this off is there anything you wish you started learning or think about earlier in your career I think for me it's that business development and client relationship management can and should start immediately the more you do the more confident you'll become and you'll find what format works for you we've talked a lot in this podcast about authenticity and being genuine and I think you need to find a way to engage with clients outside of just doing the work that field natural and comfortable for you because you've got a long career ahead of you and you don't want part of your job to be feeling uncomfortable so I think it's that importance of keeping in touch with the client team and also internal colleagues because they can be a source of work and an internal client as well so make sure that you're doing that between jobs I think is something that you should be doing as early as possible in your career I completely echo that I think developing that network from a from a young stage in your career is essential and it's a bit like paying into a pension you can't start early enough and you'll reach the rewards later on but understanding that there are so many people whether it's a university law school or as a trainee there are so many people that you'll come across and connect with and just remembering that these people will go on and by the time that you're senior they will be in senior roles in sectors that similar to you sectors that are different but they will be potential avenues not just of work but also experts that you can learn on learn from and will enhance your own professional on broader development they can be from brilliant thank you and I think that brings us to the end of this week's commercial winners compass I want to say a big thank you to your boat to your sorry that brings us to the end of this week's commercial winners compass I want to say a big thank you to both Daniel and Jess for joining us today and thank you to all for listening so I think there's been a really fantastic talk and some of the key takeaways especially around those interpersonal and almost personal skills have been fantastic for people not just who are preparing to do their applications but also in law school themselves and think about joining firms and how they can make that intimate the immediate impact and so remember the commercial where isn't just about following headlines it's about understanding the questions they raised and how lawyers help answer them we'll see you next week to help to keep building your commercial awareness until then prepare without the panic thank you