The Lynx’s Hot Start, Liberty’s Early Struggles, and How the Fire Were Built, With Noa Dalzell

It's Bob and everybody, it's Logan Murdock here from The Ringer, the 2025-2026 NBA season is here and we got your group podcast needs covered. On The Ringer NBA show, be sure to check out Group Chat with Justin Barrier, Rob Mahoney and Jake Hyleman on Sundays and Wednesdays and real ones. On Tuesdays and Fridays with myself, Rajabell, and Howard Beck, get your Ringer-related NBA podcast fix on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. And of course, come find us on YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok at the Handle Ringer NBA. Welcome to The Ringer-WNDA podcast. I'm Sarah Sohee. Today, I'm joined by my old doll, she writes about the WNDA espionage and she's a host of the WNDA today, show on CLNS, which you can find on YouTube. I think very soon you're going to be able to yell at her about her recently updated power rankings. I actually have not seen them yet, so I will not be yelling at her. I also know I would never yell at you unless we're having just the most intense basketball argument ever. How's it going? I'm good. Thanks for having me. I've so been enjoying watching the WNBA this month as someone who covers the cell pixie around. It's like watching the NBA playoffs after a team that I cover got eliminated. It just hasn't done it for me, so I've really enjoyed the season and I've been enjoying the new teams, the new players. There's just been a lot of fun stuff to watch and talk about. Oh, who's standing out to your most? I think I had a start with the links. I love being surprised in a positive way, and I really loved the links over the last two years. I covered their finals, Ron, and I liked a lot of the personality, the culture that you can feel around like a championship organization. And then I was like, "Oh, a bummer that's like that arrow came to an end and that the links are done." They lost half the rotation, and if he's a collier's injured, and she signed his one year deal on it, started to feel like maybe this team's going to be one of the less good teams in the league. I know it's only been three weeks, but I already feel dumb for doubting she'll read and their operation, and all of your miles looked awesome. Natasha Howard is sneaky, the best for agency signing, or up there, so it's been just a fun operation to watch, and it just kind of shows you that sometimes rosters or great organizations transcend rosters. If you're a great organization, you can deal with turnover if you have the institutions in place to be really good. Hall of Fame coaches that get to draft the number two pick who happens to be a generational passing talent, absolutely get to transcend any circumstances, because, you know, Cheryl was really just like, "No fee, Dallas stole her back court, T is gone, you lose, Bridget Carlton, Dorka, you lost his injured." She said, "I'm telling you right now, you don't care. We don't care. Just watch this. Let me cook. We're starting five and two. We're going to have the best record in the league. Let her cook for real. Like, just like how, you know, the best chefs, you don't really get to see them show off the most of their capabilities when they have the best ingredients. The best coach is kind of get overshadowed when they have a high level of talent, too. Right now, with the amount of constraints, fun, not intended. We will be talking about Alex Aurama's constraints led approach later in this podcast, but really like the most constraints led approach has really been what Cheryl Reeve has done with this roster, because I'm looking at all this loss, but I'm also like, "Wait, hold on. They kind of, like, they kind of feel deep to me in a weird way as well." And I love the way that Cheryl has made a lot like, she's kind of turned Nea Coffee into like her latest reclamation project, right? Kind of what she did with Alanna Smith and Courtney Williams, too, who both came from Chicago when we were playing very different roles. Nea Coffee was kind of stuck in the end of this Atlanta rotation, but had three capabilities in her. Now she's become a key rotation piece. And yeah, I think you might be right. I love that take. Natasha Howard, low key, the best free agency signing this summer, like who. If we're talking about free agents, the left one team went to another, like she has to be in the next thing. Gabby Williams is in the mix as well. I was going through this list just to see if that's accurate, and most, a lot of the good free agents stayed with their teams, like despite all the questions about what would happen. And when Natasha Howard signed with the links, like, I don't even remember reacting to it. Like, I don't even remember thinking about it, I deeply. And that maybe that's disrespectful on hindsight, because she was a starter on a good fever team last year and she played her role. But she's come in and she's been like one of the most dominant players for one of the best teams in the league. And like, I talked to some Dallas Wings fans from a few years back and they're like, I can't believe this is the same, Natasha Howard to look like she was on our way out, and she's been totally rejuvenated. And I think especially for defensive players, like, it's hard to be a really good defender on a team that's not bought in defensively, but then if you're in a really good defensive scheme around other good defensive players, like you can go back to being. I mean, she was a former defensive player of the year, right? So it just, yeah, I've really been enjoying watching Minnesota, and I'm excited for me to come back and I think they'd make a real run. Well, Natasha Howard, if you remember, was kind of like the consolation prize after they missed out on Gabby Williams. But one thing that Reeves said after the signing that was really interesting was that she wants to get Natasha Howard back to playing the way she did in Seattle, because she used to be in Minnesota. It was before she really blossomed into a star. Her prime was probably in Seattle. Dallas is hopeless. Indiana, she really recovered a lot of what she was great at, but I just think like the fit with what they're trying to do there is just was was off. What she's doing with Minnesota on both ends of the court, her being the primary pick and roll threat with Courtney Williams or Olivia Miles, I'm going to let me cook for a second. So I've I have a bit of a strain, but I think accurate metaphor to throw at you. Do you know who Massimo Batura is? He is a famous Italian chef and the things that he's really well known for are, you know, his creativity with similar ingredients. And also he has a dedication to not wasting any food. He actually runs a restaurant in Milan where they get the food scraps from like the food that all the restaurants and supermarkets aren't using. And then they like they they they they cook these lavish luxury meals for people who wouldn't normally be able to afford to splurge on like a fine dining sort of experience. And I feel like this is what Cheryl Reid does with like WNBA players that aren't getting the attention that they deserve. He also has this like dish that is like just basically five kinds of Parmesan as well. And like it's like the cheese block, there's a souffle, there's a cracker, there's sort of like in like an airy like sort of foam and they're all different kinds of Parmesan. And he lives by this motto of like make looks simple, the very complicated thing. And I kept thinking I'm going to just go and down this wormhole with with with this guy. I just like this is my wormhole of the week. But like I'm watching show Reid. But I'm like, okay, so you have Olivia Miles and Cory and William tour basically like just two pick and roll threats who I think everybody's first concern when Olivia Miles got drafted was, how are they going to be able to co-exist together? They've basically just played incredibly well off of each other by turning pick and rolls that like are very simple into like just adding a little bit of complication and a little bit like to the foundation of them like whether they're screening for each other, whether there's like a handoff leading into the pick and roll, whether like Olivia Miles is coming out of like a horn set screening and then getting the ball. And what happens is it allows them to just play late into the clock and if you shut down one, like you can take the ball out of the hands of Olivia Miles who is like if you running more pick and rolls than anybody in the league right now. And what happens next is okay, they just get the ball to the other side of the court for Courtney Williams who is like then a top 10 pick and roll creator and you have Natasha Howard who is like the key to all of these actions and she can play in the short roll. She can also like hit the three point shooter. She can be aggressive going to the rim herself like it just, I mean it's the pick and roll. It's like we've had the pick and roll for a very long time. It's what they do. It's like almost half of their actions are purely just pick and roll but they just add enough of a little twist to it and they have like a generational talent that they really allow to thrive and it's beautiful, like it's just beautiful to watch. Yeah, and I love like I think it was after their first or second game, the Courtney Williams basically handed Olivia Miles the keys at the podium and she's our point guard, you know. And obviously Courtney Williams has been able to adapt to be that playmaker for this team and she's done a really good job. But it's part of why they've gone as deep as they have. But she's not, you know, that's not her natural position and it is obviously Olivia Miles, but I don't know that I've seen so long time since they've seen like as pure point guard come into any league, right? I cover the WNB and the NBA and it just feels like that's it's kind of a dying breed and she's in that rare camp like the Chelsea race of the world. So it's a perfect fit in hindsight. It's a definitely a good thing for Minnesota that she was available and it's hard to know like how much of it. is the links as I for talent and fit how much of it is like the culture and the schemes once you get there. Probably a little bit both. I mean, I think she'll represent all the credit that she gets for being kind of the mastermind behind the operation on the court and the front office. It's very unique just like how much she has for, you know, imprint all over this organization. And again, this is all without one of the best players in the world who by all accounts is going to be back in the next, you know, few weeks hopefully. And I think they should be right where they left off. And it's interesting because they will also when you keep players like if you should hide them in Atlanta Smith, Jessica Shepard, Bridget Carlton, who's like a franchise player in fourth and now, which you know, we can talk about as well. But some of them have looked better than others. Like I've been surprised by how much of a land has been struggled. And it's made me think like how much of some of these players are our product of like this system, not to diminish her. And I'm sure she'll find her footing a little bit more in Dallas. But it's interesting to see like it just seems like you just want to be in Minnesota. It's one of those places where you'll get paid after you'll win. Like you'll learn how to kind of be the best version yourself. So yeah, they've been my they've been my surprise team for sure. Yeah, I feel like Latin particulars had the double whammy of being one of the players that's most impacted by the new refereeing rules. And also no longer playing alongside Nifisa Collier and being in like the Minnesota link system. That's that's a stop start for her. But it does make you it does make you wonder. Like, I mean, it's no just respect. Some players are system players. And almost honestly, the reality is outside of like the top 15 players in the league, everybody else is a system player. That's why there are certain WNBA franchise is it really succeed on the margins by like putting players into the systems that are that are correct for them. And Cheryl in particular, she's almost like you mentioned that she kind of like runs everything in our organization. She's almost like a little like Lidia tar Miranda priestly coded like she is just I don't I don't know that I could think of a better sort of example of a coach who just like commands respects has so much intellectual certainty in what she wants to do has a combination of old WNBA institutional memory to be able to say, yeah, I think Natasha Howard can be rejuvenated while also being the coach that like and it's really unfortunate and much cova is injured for the rest of the season now. But also is like forward thinking enough to constantly be tapping into these international markets as well. Like I don't know how one person does like I'm obviously they have a team. But like it's that Cheryl ship and it's like I mean as long as they keep winning, then anybody who shows up is just going to have to be like invested in the standards that she has and that that raises everybody's level and it also makes them buy in because they realize like it's really fun to win. Like you have to give all the credit to Courtney Williams to for being able to say hey yeah like we're gonna hand her the keys but it's also like Courtney Williams has been the system for two years right now and she knows how awesome it feels to like make the WNBA finals and do it on a team where everybody is better than the sum of their parts like that's just an amazing human experience to be a part of and that trickles down to everything to the point where you're like we start to start really asking yourself like we enter this offseason being like is this fees last season in Minnesota she had the interview with NPR that really like raised some eyebrows to now I'm like where like the grass is always greener you know yeah I'm gonna fee this to start is definitely affirming and again there's always a million factors for why players want to leave like it's not always about the best chance to win right like we saw that with Kelsey Plum but I think for fee like from what I see at least and I opus I'm on the ground in Minnesota like it seems like this could be a really good place to continue your career and I didn't think like in and of itself signing a one-year deal is not the most the craziest thing for a superstar that's coming off injuries that the franchise has lost a lot of players like it doesn't mean she can come in the long term like I'd probably give myself that flexibility if I were in her shoes but yeah certainly a good start for her if she is evaluating like where can I win because that's what she wants to do right but that's what they all want to do there's no reason to think that that can't be in Minnesota yeah best record in the league without her when she comes back or I think she scheduled for early June but we haven't had enough data on that for a little while is this team a title favorite I'm not picking against the aces right now like I don't frankly I don't really care what the aces do all season I'm going to pick them to win the title just because they've won three of the last four and we've seen how they've been able to overcome like brutal starts and they added Kennedy Carter I think makes them even more versatile and so they're my favorite but I think Minnesota has to be in that conversation and they're in the mix and I wouldn't be surprised if it's like I would love to see like a finals between those routines but I'd love to see like be an Asia battle and out like at the British stage that's like that's like my my ideal will be finals or one of that I can think of a couple combinations that would be fun but yeah I think Minnesota I mean again it's really early like I don't want to like I I just did like a power breaking spot guess it's hard to not get carried away when it's been three weeks into the season we've seen like how three weeks can sometimes not you know things can change dramatically but this feels this early success the Minnesota has feels pretty sustainable to me it doesn't feel like they just like caught fire right it's it's defensive oriented it's it's a lot of things wait what was lower your power rankings because I actually was like wrote like we're almost like a month into the season I was considering updating mine and I started thinking about it yesterday we weren't supposed to talk about this but I'm curious what they were to do yeah number one I had the links right now the fever to the aces three and then the vacuaries for the dream five and those were like my five contenders for right now with the knowledge that I think I think Dallas is trending upwards and I wouldn't be surprised if what it's all said and done New York's a top five team but I just can't say that from what we've seen so far New York dropped all the way down to down to 11 for me yeah that's how it's valid even such a tough watch and I know they've been so injury riddled and like we only keep it just on underrated component of their team and so we're gonna play one game South to Southeast played a total like 40 minutes but they have not been an inspiring watch especially watching them go up against like these expansion teams that are like hungry and like fighting and look they're just not so I think they're gonna get it together because they're just too talented to not be a top 16 or whatever else I mean they looked like ridiculous on paper um but yeah it's hard to just find anything above that right now yeah so if I mean even less well last night they went on like a 23-0 run and that's how courted did you watch that game I watched parts of that game and I watched I went I watched that run and I definitely I don't know if that's more on mercury being really bad right now or deliberately finding their fighting a little bit um but yeah they just haven't really defended like I and it's kind of been explicable because they have they don't have like bad defensive players um I don't know yeah I think they're gonna get it together like it feels like one of those like sluggish starts but I guess I'm just kind of going off talent with that I guess my biggest red flag with them is when you talk about the defense it's really just is John Quell Jones going to be able to be a defender of a top four type WNBA defense in the modern era um at this point in her career hunter hunter hunter crews actually made like a really good video about the New York Liberty struggles and there have been some moments from John Quell that have been downright inexcusable and then she also like turned it around in yesterday's game against the mercury and I can and and like it was like she hit a three then she hit like she dribbles up the court early shot clock hits like a jerk fader against Luis a guy guys will solder calls her own number hits another three and is way more engaged on the defensive and New York wins this game based on its traps and based on the fact that Banagelini Hamilton and Leo Fibic were both in the lineup so they got back some of what they are like we're what we're gonna be accustomed to seeing them do defensively but I just found myself over and over again being like this is what they're gonna need from John Quell like every night like if she can consistently put forth that kind of effort then a lot of my questions about her go away but at the same time it also makes me worry a little bit um because as much as like I love John Quell Jones I think that she's always been like somewhat underutilized I also think that like the knock against her has been that like you can kind of take her out of the game a little bit so I wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't able to consistently put forth that kind of effort and then from there is as much versatility as New York has they're a little bit I don't want to say they're thin on the front court but it's like if you're having the kind of night where John Quell isn't giving it to you the way you like it and like you know putting in that effort Han Zhu is kind of a very similar coded player to her and they're asking John Quell to kind of like like they really want to empower John Quell in his offense like they were using her and pick and rules as as ball handler really in this season they want her to be like the passing threat and I'm like man like you have to then really really be engaged and if you're not I kind of look at it and I'm like well now New York like you either going hot or you're probably going small yeah it's tough and it's like we know the level that she can play right I mean she's a former MVP for finals MVP but it's just yeah and sometimes I think like I don't know if this is a reflection of just like how good the WNBA has gotten where you can't just roll out a couple of superstars or stars in like win games like teams are too deep teams are too talented teams are playing too hard where it's just like everybody kind of has to be on their game. I think this you see the same phenomenon on the NBA side too where it's like it's not just you don't just have a couple stars anymore like you need to have like complete teams without weaknesses and it feels like the W was heading in that direction too but you're right though like they've been I only been I only any Hamilton and like the Leona Fee but just in the world they're not like the two biggest names on the Liberty but they got the identity of this team so yeah I would say like I'm like intrigued by what's going on in New York I don't have them I would be surprised if they don't figure it out though in some capacity and I think like as much as they still have talent the players like watching the fourth of fire beat them twice in three tries I was like okay like I get that you're missing like a bunch of good players but like you still have to have a sewer out there you still don't go towards out there like it feels like it should be enough but it's like half of their identity has been gone so far so we'll see like how how time kind of changes that perspective yeah I also feel like they need to get to do a little bit more involved in the offense like this offense has been very very guard heavy and you know on a night when Marine Johannes hits seven threes before to the end of like third quarter I think that's great like that works out really really well and we've seen what Pauline asked years been able to do but I almost feel like Sui is kind of getting lost in the shuffle of of what Christa Marco is kind of termed as like simplifying the offense I think that's great when you have talented players like you don't need to over complicate things like we just talked about Cheryl I think one thing that she does is she finds like the perfect balance between fighting like like creativity and making it hard to scout you while also just like letting her players cook and I still think that New York is finding that because they also do have players where like if you don't have some sort of like systemic integrity like there is going to be a little bit of like okay it's my turn now and I think you're seeing that a little bit early in the season as well so yeah but like you I am overall feeling pretty much like they're gonna figure this out they definitely have some flaws but I think that they're a perfect candidate candidate for this week's affirmations on that note we are gonna turn it to keep his own Stefan Anderson he's a super producer and he is also a New York Liberty fan so I thought who better to recite these affirmations he also just has like a much more calming voice than I do Stefan you ready let's do this okay let's do this and start off close your eyes unclench your jaw drop your shoulders relax your tongue from the roof of the mouth take a deep breath inhale hope exhale fear like Sabrina I ask you high five minutes bike who fill the power of the five burrows inside even statin island now repeat after me you are not old you are experienced you are not old you are experienced you are not slow you are patient you are not slow you are patient you are not entitled you are predestined no you want to get on in on this you are not entitled you are predestined you are stepping into your star power the cluster theory of championships is real the cluster theory of championships is real you are John Quill Jones you do not need to prove anything to anyone in the regular season your energy is a finite resource you need to protect it for the playoffs your energy is a finite resource you need to protect it for the playoffs you trust that Zoran Mondani has a plan to fix the backline rotations Marine Johannes is the only MJ you acknowledge Marine Johannes is the only MJ you acknowledge you will celebrate a title parade this year and it would actually be in Brooklyn you will celebrate a title parade this year and it will actually be in Brooklyn the elephant in your room is your power the elephant in the room is your power you are not JD in the straight shots you are JJ in the defensive traps you are not JD in the straight shots you are JJ in the defensive traps the confetti is already floating in air it is simply waiting for you to arrive to ascend the confetti is already floating in the air it is already it is simply awaiting your you to arrive to ascend now open your eyes wiggle your toes take another deep breath in and another deep breath out how are we feeling most of fun you're the Liberty Fan how do you feel I feel like we just have two men we we are we have an embarrassment of riches right now it is it is a good thing and it's also a bad thing it's our also our Achilles tail but we'll be fine we're going to get these rotations right as I watch with Mike Brown and the nicks we've played a lot of they they they spoke about something the other day he says something in his press conference that pop Steve Kurt told him you should bench early because it's going to work out for you in the long run so now test now all of these players when we make that finals run in the fall it's going to all workout we will have our Landry shaman rehab Joe Hanis will be our Landry shaman I cannot wait to see it happen marineal hannis will be our Landry shaman this fall well we are manifested man I love that well um Kristen Marco also from that Steve Kerr Mike Brown coaching tree as well so maybe it's all part of his master plan yeah like even getting rid of a coach that was like gotten pretty far or in real everybody's case the championship um yeah that's interesting in our old coach was afraid to play our bench just like tibs it's it's a lot of terror it's a lot of my parallel's going on here it's it I think the stars are allotted if we well yeah the the controversial coaching fire that actually ends up working out potentially hey from your lips the gods is uh thank you stifada appreciate you i'm not even a liberty fan but i feel genuinely calmer right now you know it's crazy the longer we went the less I could picture a liberty championship parade this year we're really like that confetti not on that's what i started to really like i like affirmations but i couldn't picture that reality yeah yeah no for sure hey well you are your thoughts you're not thinking about a liberty title right now um that's that's funny i will say i mean shoutout to sandy brindello and uh the rs obli though like sandy brindellas belief in the rs obli paying off in the biggest way with the 29 points career high that she had yesterday and honestly like a signature Toronto tempo and one of their best wins of the season feel like everybody played well like maria kanday hit some threes kiki rice was super aggressive to the rim cix was awesome marina hit incredible shots to close the game i just feel like it was finally like this team is in this match nightmare um and they were just hitting on all cylinders like they were playing all the right notes at uh at the right time and yeah i mean i have to shout out my Toronto tempo when they're playing well yeah they're fun and it's it's funny because i feel like if you were like oh is the first million dollar back for you know each getting paid a million dollars marina may bring britain cikes like i don't know about that and then they go ahead and they i mean neither of them is like the most efficient scorer and league but it kind of was like secondary right now they need someone to power the offense those two have done a really good job at that new rs obli has been awesome um i did not think kiki rice was gonna translate as well as she has throughout the first couple weeks year of the w and b season like she's been really really impressive to me as a rookie like it's just another example of like these expansion teams that you just think they're not going to be that good because they're an expansion team and they you know they the ability to like hand pick what your roster identity is gonna look like just seems to really pay off you to that in golden states case last year you do that with fourth on antarondra this year like it just seems easier than you know coming over to a team that's not been very good and trying to make that work it feels like it's just easier as hard as scratch and imprint like your philosophy on that organization and see any has a pretty good gig right now like lower pressure lower expectations but still coaching a bunch of talented players they might make the playoffs like they're in the mix so it's pretty cool yeah absolutely i mean i feel like she's kind of grown in some ways too like she's actually using more she's certain like she doesn't use bench as much but um she's unlocking her players to do things more from a versatile standpoint point especially like defensively than she did with the New York Liberty. So maybe she's taken away some things or maybe in a lower pressure situation. She can just she feels like she can just play around, but you're absolutely right. When you have a blank canvas, you just don't have to unlearn things. You don't have to fight against existing institutional wisdom. You can kind of just set your own blueprint. And that is like for even for the Portland fire, that's paying off incredibly well. Like and this year, I'm sorry, this I'm going to say that again. Last week I had my Kiki rice apology and this week I am apologizing to the Portland fire who in my preseason power rankings were my last they were last place for me. Where were they for you? I didn't do preseason power rankings because I knew they were going to be terrible. But I will say I did not think I mean looking at this roster after the expansion draft. A lot of players that I was not super familiar with. I don't watch a lot of overseas basketball. So it's like that's an area weakness. And I think that's an area weakness for a lot of fans and viewers and media like like the we just don't know exactly who's going to be good from overseas. And there's just not a ton of coverage and understanding there and they've really tapped into overseas layers. I one thing that I was right about is I thought Carlisle Lake she was my pick for most player. Oh nice. And I think that she has been awesome for I don't know what it is. Like she's not even like she's shooting like 20% from three on the season. But she's hit like all the big ones and she can get to the basket like nobody else that I've seen. And it's just they're you know they're they've just kind of figured out this identity Sarah Ashley Barger has been like huge for them off the bench. Yeah it's it's yeah it's been interesting because again like on paper I would never have guessed that they would be 4 and 3 right now. And it's not like you know it's again it's five and three wins but five and three now. Yeah never would have guessed but here they are. Yeah I mean on Carla yes absolutely has always been the downhill threat. I think the thing that she's improved and she is on my ever growing list of most improved player candidates. Although I mean Bridget Carlton should also be on that list for the second time in her career you could even put like a Sarah Ashley Barker in that in that category as well. Emily Anxler what she's been able to do defensively they just have a lot of players who are way outperforming what we thought they were capable of on late in particular. I think her improvement on pick and role reads has been the biggest evolution in her game. I think that's part of the reason that the Valkyrie's probably left her as an expansion play like available in the expansion draft is well if you look at it it's like they had to protect Burton Salon, Ilyana Rupert, Kayla Thornton, and then who would be the fifth player that they protected. I can't remember we were talking about this yesterday. Oh you stay you stay you said it who like played like five minutes against the sun will probably get like some real real action against the fever as well and she was like their number their their their first draft pick that they ever made last year so you understand it but it's just all been to Portland's game at this point because she is just like making like read read out of traps to find like Sarah Williams to run the pop with Megan Gustafson like the things that we've seen out of even like Niede Podge like their chemistry together she's kind of the engine of everything that they do on the offensive end and she's a great defender as well at the point of attack so like she's like she's a future cornerstone for them like that's one player that they know that like they're going to have in the saddle and we'll kind of see what happens with everybody else but yeah like I didn't see it I didn't see like Bridget Carlton shot creation I didn't see it not too much yeah I did not I mean she was averaging six points per game last year when she was picking number one and then goes on assigned a super max contract I was like I like Bridget Carlton like I liked her fit in Minnesota but like she was like a fifth option you know and so it's just crazy to see it just goes to show you how talented some of these players are and all they need is an opportunity and I would imagine that most improved for the next couple years as always going to just be a bunch of expansion to your players and I've been thinking a lot about this because I the value is my favorite team to watch last year I think this year it's been Portland and Toronto and there was just something so special about knowing that you were picked because your coach your you know the front office believes that you have potential to do much more than you've done in years past right like Caleb Orden was in her 30s when she was selected to be a primary scoring option last year for the back phrase and was named an all star like she that's such a special opportunity that a lot of players in her shoes might not have got and otherwise right and you see like there's just a joy that these expansion teams play with where it's like you were picked right they wanted you and they believe your coach believes that you can do a lot more than you've done because if everybody did exactly what they did last year these adventure teams would be terrible right like yeah it all rests on that they're you know players abilities to scale up we look at how much better Sarah Asher Barker has been here than in Los Angeles and how many more opportunities she's gotten right like like I makes me want to get picked an expansion I want to play to one of these teams like it just looks so fun this environment like it's the inaugural season the fans have been awesome on all three locations like it's just a very special special thing it absolutely is I think it's just such a motivating force and everything you do is first like this is this is a team that no matter what happens is going to be in history books right like the first I'm like you know you think about like like you know previous expansion teams like people who are trying are always going to know like Damon's daughter Meyer like it doesn't matter like it's just like there's there's certain just like a sort of like sense memory attached to inaugural seasons that you get to be part of I think it's just like something that like even expands beyond like X is a nose as well to your point right like being part of an experience like that it's like I don't I don't dare I say there's like we just did positive affirmations there's something like slightly metaphysical going on there as well and the fans like there's just so much energy like all of these fan bases had so much energy like Valkyrie's tempo I've been calling Portland New York and and golden state like the the gay holy Trinity of the WNBA like I feel like I want I need to do like a who plays who plays well and who who doesn't play well in certain locations like I was watching like AZFUD like when she had that 14 point quarter against New York and like the Liberty crowd is kind of like they're starting like she's she's she's getting them on their on her side like man like the Liberty don't improve their defense like you're just going to see like all the gay celebrity WNBA players go in and and also like galvanize the crowd on their side but it's been like a fun sort of addition to the WNBA as well to see like that aspect of the league like shining so much and I feel like Portland's like definitely been a part of that like they had like the first proposal as well like a the first like queer proposal at like a WNBA game and like you're seeing all these old fans like this happened with the the Valkyries last year too all these like for the Valkyries it was more like Sacramento Monarchs fans but like all these people who rooted for like the original Portland fire franchise are like coming out of the woodwork and like their like season ticket holders and it's like this full circle moment for them when the WNBA has like never been more popular like this is probably what they were hoping to experience the first time around and right now it's like it's happening they're laying down a foundation and it also just seems like really well set like it's it's set up for the future as well no it is it there's so many elements of it that make it fun and like watching Portland's first win and like that arena and like I've watched plays those games there like it was so loud it was so exciting like I love when the WNBA crowds and like significantly better than the NBA crowds have been because it's just like a fun wrinkle to like preconceptions around like women's sports and like watching like Liberty games at Barclays versus that's games like two completely different experience two different things completely the next game is like a dilapidated rework dude like yeah and then it's not a good time I mean the games have been like some of the best sports environments that I've been a part of so that that part's been fun and and again just like there's just this like dream come true feeling watching these expansions and for some Toronto a little bit less though just because they have a couple of like more established players like I would say marina's year last year was her first time really being like the engine of a of a franchise which is why on paper I thought uh sorry I meant did I say the bad things about the tempo the tempo I think like they have the ability to they on paper they had the ability to win like I could see it a little bit more um but that's what makes the fire fun because this is you just didn't really see it coming in yeah you know somebody's gonna step up but you don't really know who just a bunch of scrappy underdogs yeah and I saw people saying stuff like this is going to be one of the worst teams in sports history like this for people now I remember seeing it being like maybe yeah like honestly but I trust the people you know and this is where it comes down to like trusting that these expansion teams are also doing their due diligence with like scouting and yeah tapping overseas talent and things like that because the average person is not right and that's why maybe these some of these players come out as like surprise players or shock players you know well there's been like a really interesting conversation around that as of late um when the Portland Fire they They waved Haley Jones, they, who else did they, they waved, shook stuff, and then they waved Kamiya Smalls. And then they activated Frieda Buna who was their draft pick and Holly Winterburn to like season on contracts. The three that were waved were black and the two that were converted were white and from overseas. And it, I think it became this moment that became a flash point for this growing discourse around the WNBA about the future of its demographics, especially in the wake of a post-CBA WNBA where international talent that would have normally stayed in Europe is kind of flocking over to the WNBA and it is displacing some of the talent that we've become accustomed to seeing in the WNBA. And Zina Cata and Lacia Clarendon over at the athletic pod, actually at the new off season pod had a really long and nuanced conversation about all the different sides of it and the general feeling of, you know, now that the money is coming in are like the black American women who built the league going to start to get like shoved out of it. As we've seen in so many different industries, right, like if you've watched something like hidden figures, for example, the contributions that black women had in aerospace, the contributions that black women had in tech prior to that field becoming filled with capital and money and then all of the sudden there's this perception that's created that, oh wait, now this is just something that men like more, no, like that's not, that's not, that's not how it historically went down, but then like, it's, I mean, you name like the analytic sort of like conversation too, like some of these coaches that have entered the league, Alexorama being one of them. And I think like we talk about the great job that Alexorama has done to has sort of like had this like quirky path to getting to be a NBA coach, I would WNBA coaches and youngest WNBA coach ever has never had prior WNBA experience. Look at Chris DeMarco coming in from the Warriors, Nate Tavitz, two years ago, like white analytically minded coaches and it kind of gets in that perception of like, hey, it's not just like the white guys at like stats, you know what I mean? And I don't know, like hopefully I'm like articulating this well, but I thought it was just like, I thought they had a really interesting conversation around it, but I also found myself like, it's just tricky at the same time too, because when you look at international talent in the league, it's a very natural market inefficiency to try to tap into, because like even when you think about equality of opportunity, a lot of those opportunities, if you are tapped into the international market the way that Alexorama, you know, English coach, kind of, I call him the reverse Ted Lasso, Ted Lasso and Bonja have in those markets, like, I think they understand the ways in which players that have played there have not always gotten the opportunity that some of the American players have, right? Like you look at, for example, somebody like Hayley Jones, like played at Stanford for four years, and at this point like granted the circumstances with having to travel all the time throughout the course of the WNBA season doesn't necessarily lend itself to development, but it's also like at this point like how many WNBA franchises has she not gotten an opportunity with as opposed to somebody's international players who oftentimes, some of them go up through the national pipeline of their teams and they get amazing development, but in most countries like for Canada, for example, the national team is like the only developmental pipeline and the national team was kind of a mess up until like probably like, I don't know, six seven years ago did not mean to six seven there, but I think it's like, I think like for some of these teams that are scouting internationally more, I think that they see that there are players there who have a lot of untapped potential and then they get to come to a place like Portland that is going to pour so much into them and we see what they're capable of. Yeah, it's such an interesting conversation. I thought that they did a great job on the athletic podcast kind of diving into the new ones as of that. Especially as two black women who had some overlapping perspectives with some different perspectives too, I think what I've been thinking through over the past few weeks as the discourse around like the fire being predominantly white and kind of leaning increasingly in that direction as a grown is one, you can't just look away, right? You can't just say, well, you know, just to coincidence, like, like I initially, I honestly didn't even really notice it as a fan sort of calling it out, which is maybe my own bias of like, I'm just watching the game, like I'm not even really thinking about it to that lens. And when I started to see some of the discourse around that I was thinking about like, you know, yes, they're winning and yes, a lot of these signings have looked really smart and like we've talked about, right, like they've overachieved and it seems like what they have going on there really works. But you also have to think about like, you know, the thing I mean, like hiring biases, right? Like I've been in positions before to hire people and it's like you have to fight the impulse to hire people that are like you, right? Right. And at the end of the day, like if you have a white coach, white front office, European background, a lot of links, it's human nature to hire people or in this case, the sign players that in that not even just skin color, but just like culturally or background. It is as familiar as you've been through, familiar, poly, winter bird, like, exactly. But Megan Gustafson, like multiple players were played for the London Lions. I learned on the athletic podcast. So I didn't even realize those connections. And so is that fair? Is that just how it works? You know, if you looked at like coaches, so many coaches got jobs because they know other coaches that they've worked with in previous places, they were teammates or whatever else. So like it's definitely nuanced and it's definitely layered. I would, it's something I think we should all keep our eye on because if that's the direction that it met a lot of teams go, or if this is something that we're like, you know, two years into the Portland Fire experiment, three years in, it just seems to be kind of increasingly going in that direction. I think it warrants like further dialogue because at this point, look, it is so early, it is like, it's one initial roster that it's hard to know for sure what it is that we're watching. Yeah. But it's, there's a lot, you know, between, there's, I think people say that the Portland Fire are racist. And then I think some people say, like, this is the dumbest conversation ever, like just watch the basketball. And I think that some were usually lies in the middle. And it might be subconscious things, it might not even be something else that they all kind of touched on in the athletic podcast, but I was thinking a lot about while listening to it earlier today is this idea of like the, the constraints, leds approach and like high IQ players. And this idea that like, I think sometimes white players get deemed high IQ players more instinctively and this, you know, it's obviously not like a real thing, but I think that even just like fans are like, oh, like the, the smart white guy who shoots, right? Like, that's like a thing that you're saying. And I wonder if like, there's some unconscious bias there as well. So I'm not in a position to like make accusations, I haven't been on the ground covering this fire team. I don't know like all the back stories of however simple player got there, but I do understand why fans are like, please keeping an eye on that. And just in general, like what like you said, like the WNBA has been both of the backs of black women and like now is money's flowing in and you want to make sure that the, you know, things don't just like dramatically change in that respect. And the international thing is good though. Like you wanted national players to come to the WNBA and it's been such an oversight in years past where it's like, do you have all these great players that like could be contributing and instead you're only looking at college players. So there's like, I don't have like a firm take on it, but I certainly understand like all the perspectives and it's this thing is something that's like worth thinking and talking about for sure. No, definitely, I think like the other thing to is and it's kind of like, it's tricky. I think it touches on a lot of like emotional flashpoints for people too because of the way that immigrants are often pitted against black Americans through like the cultural lens of look how hard they work or they come from like, and basketball, it's like they come from this unselfish culture, look how they pulled up, pulled themselves up from like their bootstraps and like the reality of like colonial legacy who gets immigrant. All those things are like way more complicated than that, but these are two groups that can be kind of like like the model minority myth is like often used to denigrate black athletes as well as black people just in general. So I feel like you have to wait through those waters carefully, but I also do think at the same time like if you were scouting, you are going to look at people's individual experiences and there will be players that domestically have to go through a lot to be able to get to where they are, but there's also going to be players internationally as well. Like I think one thing that impresses international scouts or that they kind of have like a unique understanding of is this notion of being able to have a hoop dream to like play professional basketball in a country that is not America requires like a level of like delusion and self belief on and and like hustle. two like this is just one example and my perspective is obviously going to be way more from like the Canadian side but there's a story that Orrin Wiesfeld wrote a couple years ago on on complex and the t-shirt Amir had this quote and it's about the Canadian basketball pipeline. She says I used to travel from Mississauga to Toronto finished school at 2.30 have to be in Toronto by four o'clock for weights and I draped a scar bro to do basketball training after that. It was a lot and this was before she kind of like there's a Ontario scholastic basketball organization helped a lot of these players like be able to do their school and also be able to get like high level training at the same time. Those pipelines are just way more existent in America and they're designed to be a lot more seamless for athletes that are domestic and there's also I think there's a coverage problem as well like you see Portland fire fans and like this goes into the Golden State Conversation to around Flagey that were like upset that she wasn't drafted. I think Toronto temple fans even though Kiki Rice is domestic like Flagey is just somebody who has um like I mean she just she's somebody you look at and you're like I want her like on my franchise like she just has so much she's exuberant and and like you see her hit these big shots and she's just like has this effort best and energy as well but she's somebody that domestic fans had so much more exposure to and that like American scout said more exposure to and she went through this LSU program as well so like if you are going to go in the opposite direction of that in hopes of making it bet on more untapped potential that isn't potentially being like looked into I completely understand that and I can see how a lot of that would not be from a racial perspective and if you are Portland and like this is the experience that you have this is just like an advantage that you have that as a competitive basketball organization you have you have to take advantage of it like everybody takes advantage of their networks you know like it's it's it's something that's true and like domestic it's a scouting as well like if you are a domestic coach you would probably have a little bit more insight and like relationships with like college coaches to really really understand deeply a player on like the college level like a South Carolina or an LSU as well so it's it's it's it's it's complicated I guess and you definitely see like it does feel like it's this like market inefficiency of the international players that some franchises were barely tapped into whatsoever and that'll increasingly change and the expansion teams kind of have no choice because you're just going to dip into you know college prospects like these teams would not have been as good as they've been um and so that's part of it as well um but I but I I know I can really understand like why this became a conversation because especially with like that one day of transactions where it's like they cut through players and and sub sat in or a stroke sat in was one of their leading scores I'm like I hit like a clutch on and like that that part of like I think I think her in particular was like a jarring cut that being said it followed the w and b a like jarring cuts happen all the time and like someone who falls league for a living like it's I surprise me every day all the time or I'm like this is probably going to wave Lexi held today I was like what oh I had new team yeah yeah there you go yeah and like Hanley Van Litz was like starting like three days ago for Connecticut she just got cut so it's just they really got cut yeah because they let's oh they really didn't like that fourth quarter defencil from her I know it was it was gonna um so it's just the yeah it's all I think like you one day of transactions doesn't tell me everything about a franchise but like right okay it points like you kind of like want to keep all that in mind and um at the same time yeah like this one day I like about the z's of like people are not don't try away from having these conversations yeah and I think that we'll kind of I'm I'm kind of curious like at some point after fourth land we'll get questioned about this at a press conference or instant capacity I wonder like how we'll talk about this issue um but yeah even a they've been a great basketball team so that of the day like that's that's the headline right yeah other stuff is is it is it not the most Portland thing ever to first to be both extremely white demographically but then also to be very anxious about that at the same time wait that's actually so true I it is ironic I mean it's funny as in some cities it feels like the the demographic of the team reflects like the the city as well but I don't really know how to explain how you how do you explain that you know like yeah Portland's like white people apologize and for me white yeah oh man that's yeah it is it is it is interesting yeah um yeah um I had I had a bit of a ridiculous question for you that's here so Richard Carlton, Carlisle, Emily Anxler, Sarah Ashley Barker, Lisa Geisel Soder, and keep in mind they got Peter Peter in the mix they've got Mae Gustafson when they want some shooting and I want I want and I was scared I want the I want the historians to weigh on this too because like I really don't know um I haven't been covering the WNB long enough best all white rotation ever it might be honestly yeah I don't either I have no idea only all white rotation ever potentially yeah it is I wish I could fast forward like three years and see ports on the demographics because that will that will be that will be telling but yeah I mean that's been a good lineup for sure it has been a good lineup um okay I'll move on do we do we do want to talk about the actual basketball team itself too because they've been awesome and I think like the one thing for me is like like we talked about a little bit but Richard Carlton um and the series of improvements that these players have made while like kind of like buying all in on Alex Sarama's uh constraints led approach um what have you made of the constraints led approach so far this season I'm for any for anybody who doesn't know it's basically like block training you take you you eliminate variables that players are used to having an order to make their performance a little bit more difficult and then from there they kind of have to find like the advantage in the disadvantage there are versions of this as simple and that have been around as long as like watching videos of Steph Curry dribbling at tennis ball instead of a basketball um I think Portland and Alex Sarama are the first team to really go all in on this technique of player development and obviously it has had some pretty great results so far what do you I don't know like a whole lot about it I've been reading up a little bit and I've seen like the tidbits of them doing drills and just socks and they don't have shoot around um and they don't practice like one on zero moves they everything is situational like it's interesting stuff what I like about it is I feel like so much of life in this goes beyond basketball is just everybody copying everybody else and like you start to do things just because everybody else does those things and hearing came talk about like why they got rid of shoot around mainly kind of wonder like why teams have shoot around because if anything like you're like wouldn't it be better in theory to like breast or muscles and like warm up before the game like why are you wearing like seven hours of before the game like I never really thought about it um and so I like the idea that your Q's just kind of like reinventing the wheel on a lot of things and um again like I'd be curious to to read more about it I know he's written a book about it and I know there's kind of more there's been deeper reporting um and a lot of it was reported when he was in Cleveland too and like any advocates are just like a loved a lot of what he brought to the table there um but I just think it's interesting a lot of the stuff that I've seen so far I'm like that is a good point like you just don't see people think out of the box because in coaching it's like so much of the same stuff over over again right the same it's a copycat league that's what they always say right but it's just kind of cool to see someone come in and come in with ideas that you haven't seen other teams implemented and then I'm sure not everything will stick um but some of this that I've seen too far is really interesting yeah how is and I think you're absolutely right because there's also a lot of fear in these drops too right like if you go against a grain like if this for example they won a lot of close games if they were losing these close games um and they were not off to right start to the season like I think it would be really easy for people on twitter to just clown them for practicing and socks um so when you try something new you open yourself up to vulnerability in a way ed for him to be this bold about this um it just it I mean it just shows you that he's a true believer in in in what he's doing it's cool for sure no you're so right I mean so many of their wins have come down to the to the wire which is in part why I think I've ended up watching a lot of Portland fire you just a lot of time in those concurrent games going on and flipping through being like what's the closest game we're gonna watch right now yeah and it's been a lot of Portland games and they've been they've been great showdowns but you're right like a couple things go differently and then it's like what after all this guy we've been ahead kosher for like we know quickly the narratives change around for sure people in sports um and if you can be on top of the world one day and you can be at the bottom a couple weeks later so we'll see I mean I think I'm cautiously you know Toronto Portland I think it's it's still so early good. I feel pretty good about at this point because it's like year two next you have like some real like I think Gabi Williams is like a game leader so like that so I think they're like out of their own league but pretty cool start to expansion in general just to see how competitive these teams can be um definitely what's been your favorite Portland Fire close out game um moment. I a lot actually, like maybe Sarah Ashley Barker game winner just because that was so emotional, like that crowd was so loud, she's like crawling on the floor, everybody's like tackling her, it felt like more meaningful than just a ride-out, she's in game because it was the first one, or the Carla late takeovers which she took over twice for a celebrity and then she hits like a corner three Wednesday night versus the sun and like again, she's not a three-point shooter statistically, but I think she might be trending in that direction because she's pulling, she's calling grow a number, like the last one against the Liberty, she was like calling for an ISO, we're on a steward and pulling over three, like that's her game, like it's just, it's very fun, so there's been a couple, but I think the, I guess the Liberty ones have to be at the top just because you're beating like this like powerhouse franchise ultimately, when you're doing it with relatively unknown players. I don't think anybody in the Liberty can guard her and I think she knows it, I think she just has such an electric first step, and like certainly a Pauline Acetier can't guard her, and then she gets in these pick and rolls against John Quill Drone's and just blows by her, and she just has so much confidence, she's so fearless, she can guard her, like that's what I've been starting to, and I kind of felt that in moments last year, old and stated just like I wasn't, hadn't come together yet, but it's felt like, again, I'm not really like judging their decision to not, like I understand like they had limited players to protect and they protected really good players too, but I felt like there was enough there to like see this coming, so I am kind of curious to see like how the rest of her career goes, and this feels like the beginning of like, I think she's going to eventually be like an all-star guard. Oh, for sure, for sure. I mean honestly, I love that you're bringing up this three-pointer because that pull-up through really develops, it's over, it's over, you're not going to do anything with her. She's got the pull-up. I mean, but sometimes it's like statistics from misleading because it's like she's not shooting them well, but if she hits all the big ones, then like she's better than her. You know, those shooters, like where they're just like, you just seemingly hit all the big ones, then there's like the 40% shooters that never hit the big ones. Well, she's just a bit of Kennedy Carter in her as well, where it's like, okay, you want to give her the steps, sure, but you don't actually don't want to give her a running start, so you have to kind of space out there if she has a pull-up too. Exactly, right. Yeah. Yeah, there are some overlapping both their games. There are two players I really do are watching with the season, so. But what you're seeing is you like dog, like you hit the big ones, it's all good. I like, in general, when I'm fighting my own biases, as like a viewer of the game, I like undersized guards. Like I always find myself like, you know, I always find my, I'm five, five 11 to Nami, but I think it's just like watching like, like, everybody that follows me for a Celtic stuff knows I'm like, a big picture of a fan, but like, there's something so cool about watching the small version on the court. Like, do all these like, I mean, I have to oversimplit like, kind of like these tricks and winery to create separation over far superior physical athletes and things like that. So how could you not be a Peyton Pritchard fan? She's a Kate, he's a Kate and Clark of the NBA, so. Famously. No, but I agree with you. Like, there is something just, I think I should be inspiring about small guards. You know, like Kelsey Paul is injured right now, but she's a great example of that. All right, before I let you go, I have a, I have a quiz for you on Alex Sarama. It's things he, true or false, things he has done as a coach or trainer in his career, not limited to the fire. I think some of these are going to be very easy for you. First, he makes players do three on zero drills with no defenders to make players imagine what the defense would do. False. Yeah, no three on zero, no one on zero from this guy. When you said that, I was like, damn, she's obviously going to know the answer to that question. In practice, practice to dissuade players from taking mid-range shots, he counts long twos as turnovers. Let's say false. True. Really? Yeah, it's more of a smesco type of move, right? I was, I was a little surprised. I know they're bad for the game, but I hate that feeling. I hate that vibe of like calling that turnover, but he knows more than me. Yeah, I know, I don't, I don't, I'm not definitely there, but they are very analytically minded this team, but they don't take bad shots. I think that's part of the reason that they've won some early games as well. Yeah, who's his turnovers, damn. Yeah. All right, to help Carla Leigh improve her pick and roll reads, he makes her wear an eye patch in practice, inspired by Julius Axelrod, who won the Nobel Prize in physiology in 1970 for his work on the release and re-uptake of dopamine neurotransmitters. Okay, that was just the way that was word and I want to say true 12. What? You just made that up. What the hell? You know, like with multiple choice quizzes and like high school, if there was like a really specific answer, it would be like, that's the correct one. You got me. That was the intention. Absolutely. All right, to warm up, Sarama makes players stretch with and move with polls, citing the techniques of Soviet neurophysicists, Nikola Bernstein, one of the pioneers in the field of motor control and motor learning. I don't trust you anymore with these big names. That one's true. Is that hilarious? That's crazy. I love this. I love like I've been going down to Alex Sarama wormhole and just how deeply research some of this stuff is on his part is really really impressive. It really is though like they better be good. You know, like if you're like, if this is like his coaching and like his team sucks, then it's like suddenly, this is all of you doesn't get make even if it's not right. We just know how complete. Like I would even covering Joe Mozilla like I see the whole time where it's like when they're winning Joe Mozilla's this like genius that's a say, so when they're losing, they're like he's just weird like what is he stuck by? I see, you know, like it things change so quickly. Oh, he kind of is a Joe Mozilla of the WNBA. A lot. I mean, I don't think he's like the meaner, but just like his, how he's different, you know? Yeah, our Ted Lasso Joe Mozilla young combo guy. Yeah, young. Yeah, yeah. Joe was the youngest ever coach, right? Before before JJ. When he was hired, was he? He might have been. Oh, wait, Will Hardy. But definitely young on the twine line of young. To help Carla lay improve for picking roles, role reads out of the trap. He instructed Portland's assistant coaches to trap her and impede her focus by waving inflatable tubes in her face. False. Indeed, false. What he has done is to make closeout harder. He has defended cut contested shots with pool noodles before. I was hoping to trip you up with putting like a truth into a lie. I'm just guessing at this point. All right. Last one. He has his players do drills in their socks, inspired by a practice called differential learning, which he read about in a book written by Wolfgang Schollhorn, a researcher on biomechanics and motor learning. I saw that. Yes, that's true. Not one is true. Which I've also thought about, like, that seems to kind of an injury risk. I guess, yeah. Like, I'm curious about it. Like, I think it's cool, but I was wondering. I was like, you're like really doing drills in socks. Like, yeah, you'd be so excited all over the place for sure. I can definitely see some players falling on their backs. Yeah. They're probably not doing anything too well, but yeah, maybe not. Maybe not. Yeah, I do wonder what kind of drills that they're doing. They're just taking like jump shots or something like that. I'm definitely not trying to go up for a layup in my socks. That just feels like how I break every bone in my body and never play again, knock on wood. All right. No, thank you so much for making the time. Read her at espionation, watch her on YouTube on the WNBA today show on CLNS. She just did her updated power rankings. So, you know, we know that's engagement bay. If you want to get really, really angry at her or really, really thrilled with her based on where your team is ranked. You're super duper welcome to do that, but be nice. I have like 12 disclaimers at the beginning of the episode. So anything anybody girl told me I protected myself. Nice. Nice. And that always works historically. Uh, Noah, thank you so much for making the time. I appreciate you. We'll talk to you soon. Thank you to Stefan Anderson for producing and for being the voice of our positive affirmations. I know I felt better after that, even though I'm not a Liberty fan. I hope you guys did too, and we'll talk to you next week. [Music] [Music] [Music]