The Long View to a Global Icon w/ Lamberto Frescobaldi, Ornellaia

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The podcast that navigates the business of wine with unique perspectives and insights with your host Robert Vernick and Peter Young. Welcome to this episode of X-Shetow. Today we have Lemberto Fresco Baldi, president of Fresco Baldi wines. And we're going to talk about keeping a global icon iconic, especially with the Orna-Laya brand. Lemberto, welcome to the show. Hello, good evening. Happy to be with you and who is following. You know, let's do it on the web. But next time we have to be in front of us with a nice glass of wine. Absolutely. For those of our listeners who aren't familiar with you, could you give us a brief overview of your background? But the background is easy. I live in, I was born in Florence. So Tasca, Italy lived in the countryside for the initial part of my life. And nothing that that, it's also part of my DNA, of my heritage, living in the country where we had the seller, we had cows, horses, olive oil, pressed meal, the wine seller, vineyards, and the motorbikes to jump on cars to drive without the permit. Everything and anything that you do in the country. And then I moved, because I have two older sisters, one younger sister, we all moved to Florence where I actually now live, downtown Florence. And this is in a home that has been part of my family. Since the land here was bought by my family in the 1100. And our home is here, so right next to the river, next to the Pontevacio, who has been to Florence. Since the young part of my age, you know, around 10-15-ish, I've always been sent around the world during the summer to visit different places on solo trips with families, often in North America, often something related with vineyards and wine. And I always wanted to study agriculture, and so that I, what I did after school, I went to University of Agriculture, and then I had this opportunity. My parents gave me this opportunity back in the 80s to move to UC Davis in California. And where I polished my English, I also studying deeply viticulture and inology. I believe there I also had a terrific experience, thanks to there was a large wine store in Sacramento called Corte Brothers. And the owner and the student, yes, I loved wine, but it didn't know much about wine, and about one of the rest of the world. So I started working in this shop on Saturdays and Sundays, but also tasting many wines. That I think is very much important, I think, in my culture, wine culture. Often you fall in love with what you're doing, but it's important also to be humble about it. And to see that there is some other opportunities, then I came back to Italy. I actually joined the army. I became a lieutenant in the Carabinieri and I actually wanted to remain in the army because I had a great time when you're young and you feel nice and and lovely, handsome and people, I don't know what you have, some sort of terrific success. When you're not at work. Exactly. My joint, officially, company, I always worked in the company, in the vineyards, on carrying wines around the city. And one of the really things I always loved was to join people and sharing ideas and listening to people and grabbing all everything possible for everybody. And then, so that is my background. And then again, I was blessed of joining Tim Mondavi and we did a wine together back in the end of the 80s, sorry mid 90s. And we worked very closely together for 10 years. Then I'm here and I'm curious yet believe that there is not the perfect wine out there. I haven't tasted the perfect wine yet. So there is much to know, to learn, to listen, push a button, always reset, and be curious. So this is my background in a family that has been now 30 generations in the wine business, not always on the wine, but we have heritage to go back. We have archived the go back and tell us that we've been producing wine and selling wine around Europe. And then in more recent years we'd be expanding. So going beyond the boundary lines of Florence, so beyond Florence and beyond regional Florence and then going towards other areas of Tascanine and north of Italy, recently in Oregon and in Sicily and is not finished yet. So, more to come. And given that expansion and the 30 generations of history, what is the whole scope of the Fresco Baldy business? Is it all wine production and is it those regions and sort of how big is the Fresco Baldy business? How big is, differently from other people that they've been very successful in other kind of other businesses, high tech, cars, space, whatever. They land it in the wine business also for the pleasure of having both a wine that is made by them. We are different. We are wine growers that this is our business. We do not have other interests rather than wine. Every dime that we have is put in our business. We love enjoying life, of course, but we are not great fans of having homes around the world. We love to be focused and we love other friends' sport cars, but we buy tractors. So, we've been very focused and I think that that has been, I think one of the successes for us is to be focused and not to dilute our time and our focus on other things. Really always to pursue quality and never really stop giving a try at producing a great wine. And on focus, we'd love to focus our discussion on one of your great wines, Ornalaya, one of the iconic wines of Italy and how it became and continues to sustain being iconic. What is the origin story behind Ornalaya? Well, Analaya, funny enough, we always speak about heritage, about durations, we speak about how important is tradition, all those kind of things. But more recently, we have experienced that there is something that is fairly new. In the wine world, there are some wines that have becoming more important iconic from areas where wine growing has become more recently. And Borgheri is one of them. Borgheri was not known as a wine region, especially in Tascany, where the region has been focusing on one single variety that is San Joveze. Borgheri, for the fact of being next to the sea, to have a mild climate to be a somewhat little paradise, is less suited for San Joveze, that wants to have somewhat more of an extreme climate during the summer, more dry weather, less water available in the ground, everything that is more schist soil rather than sand or clay. So, the number of things that has kept Borgheri not in the map of Tascany said that. It has become, thanks to, I would say, to mainly two wineries. One is Sasikahia and the other one is Ornelaia and then Maseto, as we will discuss later and that they have been divided, the two wineries. So these three wineries have become really an icon of that part of Tascanian, of Italy and nowadays beyond the boundary lines of Italy. So it's a fairly new place where all of the latest know how and not having sometimes the heavy weight of the past because sometimes tradition it gives direction but is also a heavy weight in your shoulders. Sometimes you have fear of doing something different because it has been working up to now. Instead there was this great opportunity to start from scratch and so we started with the best clone selection of Cabernet Suignon, of Petit Verdou, of Cabernet Franca, of Merlot. And starting from scratch, often as we said, we do not do the mistakes of the past. So from year one, Ornelaia became right away a wind that was if we may say them good and has had a consistent year after year of being very good. With the differences of the vintage but always on this curve that was rising year after year and the weld and this stood that, discovered that line and I would love to say that we have created something unique but has to be very honest, I think about it. We have helped to make this wine known but the quality of the wine itself, the quality of the location, the quality of the team, of course, because people behind the glass of wine has made this wine good and the people out there, they have given us the confidence that we were doing, the right thing and we were pursuing the right direction. So having the opportunity of people that they were having a glass of wine today and having it again after some time but repeating it coming back to you that is the confidence that they have given us to ask to pursue what we were doing and to look at every detail to make this wine what has become. - And on that note of looking at all the details, Ornolaya has had some ownership changes over the years with the Antenoraes, Mandavi and Fresco Baldis all involved and Fresco Baldis taking over in 2005. How have the ownership changes impacted the path of Ornolaya? - I think that has impacted very well because the wine has grown terrifically. The Ludwig Antenoraes again, this lovely winery, did a terrific job, he's a terrific man, very engaging, lovely to spend time with him. Then he's always curious. So then he got to a moment that he wanted to look at something else. So he handed over the winery to the Mondavi and the Mondavi had already wonery together with us that is Lutre and for them he became quite natural to ask us if we wanted to be involved also in Ornolaya and that happened in February 2002. So from February 2002 we started the path together with the Mondavi having a clear vision of what we wanted to do and also that we wanted to be together. If one of the two would have lost control of the mother company, the other one would have could have buy back the winery or sell it together. And when Mondavi in 2004 was sold to Cozellation, we began a discussion with the new ownership Cozellation Company and we actually got to the moment that we asked that we wanted to buy the rest of the company and we did the D.O. April 1st, 2005. Sometimes April 1st is considered to be a game or you do-- - April 1st. - You have fun of your friends or everybody. Instead, April 1st in this case was a very important day for us. And from April 1st, 2005 we took control of it because before we were 50/50 with the Mondavi and from there on, what we have been giving to Ornelaia compared to the initial stage is confidence to the team that we are not a financial company. We are not those guys that they champion and after five years they cash out. One of the oldest state is Cozellioni and has been in our family since the year 1052, 1552. So in a little time it's gonna be 1,000 years. So if we move into Ornelaia is we have not the plan of saying how much is the value now? Where maybe we could-- When you sell, you find it, you become rich. We don't really care about that. We care only to make good wine and to have a great team and share the joy and that every day a great bottle of wine gives you. - And you mentioned from the beginning the quality of Ornelaia showed and people recognized it. Was it mostly critical acclaim from the major wine critics that propelled Ornelaia to iconic status or do you think there was more to it than that? - Of course, you know, better than I do that every wine producer is gonna tell you, my wine is delicious. My wine is terrific because I don't sleep at night. I have the worst time of my life during harvest, doing aging. So my wine has to be damn good and is damn good. Everybody says that and any soul boring, I must say. So it must be somebody, a third party that tells you jolly good. And when somebody tells you, in itaniaia says that he has to get into your ear and has to get exactly quickly out of your ear because if you start thinking that you really did a jolly good job, you're gonna start sleeping and relaxing. Instead, you don't have to relax. So in and you're happy out very quickly and you start running again. So a third party is very important. And if the moment that you have a bottle of Ornelaia, you pop the corg and you tell to me, "Lambet, you know, with last night I had a great bottle of Ornelaia and I, and I really enjoyed it. This has much more value if you say that to me, rather than myself, when I shave in the morning in front of the mirror, telling me how them was the bottle of Ornelaia at the open last night." - So obviously the critics had a big play where there are other things in the marketplace being a unique new thing, new wine region, vulgary, new category of super-taskin that also helped to propel it as a brand. - Super-taskin, what is it? Super-taskin. Super-taskin is that category that up to 1995, it was under the umbrella of table wine 'cause it was not following the rules. Often it was planted with Cabernet Sauvignon, as we said before, this is the region of San Juveze. And so if you, anything that you don't use, San Juveze is, oh my God, you're doing something wrong. So those table wines made with Merlot, Cabernet Sauvignon in some cases, Syrah or Sauvignon Blanc, they were table wine. And then in 1995, this new category, that is a wide category called IGT Toscana, that means indication of geographic atypical or tepic geographic appellation began and it didn't add much. But it added the name Toscana. In America, you guys are very pragmatic. These wines were table wine. So you could not put it in the shop. You could not put them next to the county. It was not a Brunello. It was not a county classical. It was not what the hell it was. So it was table wine, not very exciting. So somebody said, "Oh, these wines are damn good, super good." It's also quite expensive, super expensive. And so super tasking. Super tasking is something that comes from myocountry rather than ask, because we barely. speak Italian and we said definitely don't speak English. So, Supertaskin is something that we don't translate it super to scan or it doesn't exist. And so, it's roughly really an Anglo-Saxon wording. It was giving a status that this wine and often made with Cabernet Sauignon. So, this Supertaskin was the origin and then Supertaskin gave also the opportunity to the region of Bulgaria to ask the to have a status of Appellation. So, now is the name of a bold gradio-c. But everything began as a so-called Supertaskin. And the Supertaskin often those wines that are related with Cabernet Sauignon. And this is also a good way to say that yes wine is tradition, but it's actually also innovation. So, you have to be ready to give it try and to give you the mistakes. But I have never seen a success without doing a number of mistakes. Yeah. As Ornelia started to come to market, how did you guys think about where to sell it, how to distribute it, and how has that changed today? The good thing was that the quantities were limited. So, it was always done a very detailed distribution. So, going to markets and actually to have really clients that were giving a certain location, the wine was often very well accepted. So, it was the way running out of that wine. And we were consistent on giving the wine to the people that they had voted the year before. So, we actually created also a number of friends if we may say that they were buying that wine year after year. And sadly, there was never enough. So, people had been coming. They became very, they felt that they had an opportunity on, or they were reserving the wine. And what we did was to also enlarge the distribution. The world is big. I'm not putting all your eggs in one basket. So, of course Italy, but then bits and pieces around the well, and going to the right people, the right people and the right accounts. And of course, if you want wine to become an icon, you have to be in the best wine list of the world. So, was there a focus on restaurants and the on-premise versus retailers? Exactly. Restaurants. Also restaurants, if you have a, often people underestimate the job of the waiter. The waiter is a very important job because he will explain not only the dish and makes you buy a dish rather than another one and also get the dessert and not skip the dessert, but also he's also able to explain to you that there are lovely wine around there. And so he becoming an ambassador. So, the restaurant business is very important for create a, what you said in iconic wine. I strongly believe that the iconic wine, the first step is to be iconic in restaurants and then in May or another places. And has that changed for Ornaleia over time? Like a lot of restaurants up first at front and then maybe has it changed more recently? But more recently now there are also some lovely shops that they have wine. We love to have them know in a location where they have, they have a small selection of iconic wines. But in general, we like to go to restaurants and have a good present on wine list. Also beyond the latest vintage and have more vintage like the best restaurants also, often have. And then once you have a global icon maintaining it, it's not that easy. Keeping your relevance over time and over decades is something that requires a lot of work. And I think there's probably at least several major initiatives for Ornaleia that has kept it in people's minds, one of which is Vendemia, the artista, I don't know if I said that right, but can you please explain what that is to us? Yes, Vendemartista, let's say that is somewhat, we say the cherry on a cake. It's one of the details. Yes, Vendemartista is important. But as important is to have a great team working in Ornaleia from the grown-um is to the wine makers, wine makers that they have had experiences from around the world. People that they have been working on communication like Elena with us that had had experiences before and people that they are curious. We like to have people in our team that they are curious and so that they are never happy enough of what they did before. Vendemartista, he began now over 15 years ago and he was a every Vendemartista, he's given a name, a divintage, a single name that is, you can talk about the power, about the elegance, about the complexity, about the number of things. And so it makes a little bit, sometimes, easier to understand the heart of itself. And Vendemartista also has been done together with very important players like the Guggenheim and the people that they are part of the Guggenheim, also people that very knowledge, they have a great culture, the traveler around the world. And so also to be in their private wine cellars is also something that is important for Ornaleia. And we have been also connected by the Guggenheim to these kind of people and have them get to know Ornaleia itself and also giving the opportunity to a great artist to interpret the job that is done in Ornaleia itself. And so again, as we were talking about a third party, now the third party here is an artist. So third parties are very important also because they come, they've come and visit you, they look at what you're doing, they look at every detail, these are very important artists. So they are not giving their time for somebody that is, that doesn't have the same vision of quality, of being innovative, of being in the best museum, in the best restaurants. So the same vision of a great artist has given us the opportunity to have a terrific partnership with them and us also to make that tiny little effort again every year to make even a greater wine. And so you mentioned a partnership with the Guggenheim, which is the Guggenheim in New York. What is the scope of that partnership? Yeah, but it's not only New York, as you know, Guggenheim is also has a terrific location in Venice and in Spain. So the Guggenheim is an amazing museum in New York. It was modern when it was built and it's a classic in these days. And it's an open field of interest, of core of great people. So sometimes people say, wine is art. I am a little bit more humble about it. Let's, art is something that you have is something that is going to remain in your home. It's going to remain in a beautiful place of the world. Wine is crafted to give pleasure to be together with people and when the bottle is empty, next, so it's finished. So I'm going to be doing more humble about saying wine is art. So art is what the artists are doing. We are doing something with the same terrific detail of them, but we are doing something that year after year has its own heritage, its own, which it could be said nuances. So tiny, tiny small differences that they always making it interesting for who wants to pop a cork of what Laordalaya. And so the artist creates an art installation, but also a label, right, that is on a portion of all the bottles of Laordalaya. Yeah, it's that. They do the large formats, the magnum, the double magnum. We also put it on one bottle out of six in a case, also to remember better because those that have more distribution rather than magnum. and double magnum's. So it's a nice way to also to tickle people and to make them think of what is behind that label. Yes, wine has to be good, but we want people to better understand what it is behind that label, what it is in the glass. So that different label should tickle people and tickle their curiosity and get to know better what we are and what we're doing. So you also recently or some time ago launched Ornalaia Bianco, a white wine, when did that happen and what was the thought process behind that? Funny enough, with Ludovico's, Anthony Ornala, the first thing that he planted in Ornalaia was actually white, was a Soviet block. Then the reds came around and the red wines had a tremendous success rather than whites. There was a moment that everybody was drinking a reds because red was also good for your heart. I think it was very pleasant for your stomach and your palate, but people, there was a moment that wine had to be red rather than white. But In Ornalaia, it was there, there was those vineyards planted and actually there we actually planted a little bit more. And in those areas where the sun is less vibrant, there are a little bit facing north, so there are a little bit cooler. The unique thing about Tascanis is that our Tascanis rolling here, constantly rolling here. So we don't have, like for example, in Bordeaux, flat area where pretty much you do not have the west, east or north or south exposure. So we had some areas where the sun was a little bit more discrete and the white wines, especially white varieties, love to have a little bit more of a discrete sun exposure to enhance their aromas. And it was there, it was sitting there. Then there was a white wine that began, it was, said the moment it was stopped and then it began again, it's called Pogia Legatze. We actually planted most of in your block and the email that a single vineyard was actually doing something unique, small amount. So let's don't become so excited about it. So this small amount became a small touch of Ornilaia saying that in Ornilaia we had also this great opportunity to offer a tiny amount of this white wine. The market people, the connoisseur, really enjoyed this wine. They enjoyed the fact that this wine is aged in the same number of years of Ornilaia, of the Red Ornilaia. They enjoyed the fact that it was not an explosion of aromas, rather than a wine of complexity, a wine, I would say, a ballerina on toes. They all very well integrated and also the aging that we gave at the wine also not to being obvious and the layers of aroma, but also a wine with a certain amount of, it's not severe, but let's say that it doesn't smile at you right away. It is a wine that was to be discovered. And I think that again, that is one of the reasons the success of this wine. This wine needed to be discovered, step by step, year after year. And again, also here, sadly, we run out of it too quickly and too fast. So who has about to keep it story nicely when you have the right company, enjoy it with them. And with such a global icon like Ornilaia, how do you think about creating value for the brand like? And you're not into sports cars or other things. But how do you think about continuing to increase the value of Ornilaia brand? The increasing value is also, as we said, the wine critics. And wine critics call us. They come to visit what we're doing. Our engage is always open to them. We discuss with them also our joys, but also our fears, the ideas. We are very open with them. And we like to have a number of wine critics that come to visit us because we know that they have in a tremendous knowledge of the great ones of the world, the travel around the world, even more than us, even though we travel quite a lot. But they taste a number of wines, an amazing number of wines. A number of wine that we could not taste as much as they do. So their feedback their comments, not only their rating. Their rating is very, their rating means everything and anything, but actually sharing with them their time and our time to get the comments of it make us, I would say, more determined on what we're doing with our quality. And then who is creating this magic round of Ornelaia and Masato is the community out there that is buying our bottles and they opened the bottles and not only putting them in their cellar, but actually pulling the cork. And this success is there is that the wine is actually drunk. It's not only kept as something to be in the cell. So if it's meant to be drunk, do you then do things like monitor the pricing of back ventages in the secondary market, which is more on the, I'd say, not drinking, but the collecting side? Yes, we look at that. We have very few, we can't do much about it. Of course, what, however, tells us is that when we craft this wine, we know that most of it is going to be drunk within the year that this wine goes on the market, but there is going to be a small amount of terrific people that they have that ability of putting aside maybe buying a case of it and enjoying a bottle one every other year. And so those people and that secondary market tells us that a wine that now is 10, 15, 20 years old is actually yet extremely good and is ready to be drunk, but ready to be yet preserved. So those people are telling us the message, guys, be careful. So these wines, they don't have to only to please a right away, but they have to please also after 25 years from now. That secondary market tells us that if we're going to see the price dropping means that the wine is no good and so we did something wrong. And instead we are seeing what we want to see, but we are now what we want, what we are pleased to see. And in this modern digital era, what digital tools and marketing techniques do you use for a brand like Analyah? Talking about digital with me is quite complicated because I don't have Facebook, I don't have Instagram, I don't have TikTok, I'm a disaster on that. I know that there is a population out there that enjoys that kind of sport, I don't know how you could say that, but I'm not so into it because everything is so fast. And instead, when we open a bottle of wine, you have to take your time, you have to pour it in a glass, has to be nice glass, and you have to sip it. If you are Thursday, bring water. We have a great bottle of wine, everything is actually slow, and you have to take your time and you have to enjoy every sip of it. So other things I see them very fast. So yes, we have to put some nice pictures about the Harvies, about the Racking, about the beautiful pictures. I couldn't be more enthusiastic about the job that the team is doing, but I'm quite a loser on that kind of field. And to be very honest, I would love to ask to somebody that have seen a bottle of Analyah on Instagram if he has actually decided to rush to the wine liquor and buy bottle of Analyah. I'm not so sure about it. Yeah, I don't know. There are some people say that maybe some people buy like Sasakaia, sister, after seeing it, LeBron James, Drake it and posted on Instagram. Exactly. Exactly. So who posted on Instagram has to also post it in a way that makes you feel having the desire of opening that bottle. What I actually, to be very honest, I like about these kind of tools is that they're In this way you are very transparent. You are showing every time of the year what you are doing. And we love to have people knocking at the door of the winery. But we know that it is going to be a tiny fraction. So there are going to be another massive amount of people that they don't have the time. They don't have the opportunity to come in knock-out to the door. But yet, Instagram or this kind of tool, they are opening the door to what we are doing. Sometimes there are also some good questions. They do come with good questions. And we try to be efficient and quick enough to give good answers. So going beyond some jokes that I did, there are actually terrific tools that they are giving us an opportunity to connect directly with people. Yeah. In sitting in October 2025, the wine world is seeing falling consumption for the last few years and also crazy trade wars and other things. How have these impacted a top-wide like Ornallaya? Not much to be very honest. The wine community of Ornallaya is tiny. Nobody is drinking Ornallaya because they are Thursday. People have the desire of opening that kind of bottle. Tyreff affecting us, yes and no. That kind of connoisseurs, of course, if President Trump would have put 200 percent, yes, it would have could have been a damn problem. But as today, I must say very honestly, that has not affected us too much or very vaguely. Of course, Ornallaya has more than only Ornallaya has a second wine called the Serenuova, has a third wine called Levolte. And Levolte is a little bit more, is more maybe susceptible to the Tyreff. But for what we've been seeing, we have not really had a loss. You were talking about before, about a drop on wine consumption, yes indeed. But to be very honest, we as wine producers, we've always said out there to people, drink in moderation. So ourselves have always said to people, don't drink a bottle of wine for the sick of drinking it. Drink a glass of wine for the pleasure that the glass of wine is giving you. So we've been telling to everybody over the last 50 years that drink and wine has to be drank in moderation. What sadly is happening is that there is a community of people, let's say that they are in their late 20s, beginning 30s, that rather than drinking a glass of wine, a drinking hot liquor. So in the United States over the last one year and a half, the hot liquor consumption has actually passed, the wine consumption. So when we say people that they are drinking less wine because there are health reasons, I don't think that's right, because they would not drink more hot liquor. Because if we're talking about health, hot liquor, you know, 40 proof and more. So it's the fact that maybe younger people are now more into tequila, cocktails. But over time when they get in their maybe before it was in their late 20s, now it's going to be in their mid 30s, they're going to come back to wine and enjoy wines as Ornelia and as many other great wines of the world that are out there. I always say it ties more to family formation. Like family formation has kind of got pushed out. And once you have kids, you're not going to the bars or clubs anymore where you might drink more, you know, spirits and cocktails and other things. But when you're at home, wine is a more interesting product, I think. To be very honest, there was a moment that hot liquor was seeing as a devil and he's knocked. I'm going to say I really enjoy an agrony every now and then and a gin and tonic. And they're beautiful gin and tonics. Beautiful, different, also tonic waters together with the gin. So I think that we have to, let's don't put boundary lines between a cocktail and a glass of wine. I think that this is very, very superficial. As much as I love to have also a limoncello that at the end of a meal, I love to have a glass of, of Masato. Never alone. Never alone. Always with somebody. And you've had so much experience in the wine industry. What are the trends within the wine industry that you're following for the next three to five years? It's a good question. There have been, as we said before, the trends of red wines. It was a moment that wine had to be bold, had to be okay, had to be dark, like the darkest evening, night of the year. And now it has become the wine that's to be more fruity. Now people finally got fed up with the vanilla taste that had to be in a red wine because there will be tons of vodka tasting it. People are becoming more refined. So now there is the moment of pinonnoires. Pinonnoires are terrific wines. Very tricky variety. So pinonnoires is not everywhere as good as other varieties. People are now enjoying more white wine. But white wine has Ornalaia Bianco, not only generic white wines. There has been the terrific trend of rosé, especially from Provence in the latest years. Now there is a little bit of slowdown on rosé. But why that? Because there was so much success that maybe out there, some of the rosé now they were not so appealing. So now there is yet a great opportunity for great rosé. So what I like about you guys, about America in general, is that, and that's the reason why when I came to America, I feel like it is a little bit my second home, also because I studied there. I spend many years of my, many time of my life there. Americans are very generous people. They give you a chance. And if you play it right, they're going to come back to you. If they think that what you have delivered to them, quality price ratio that doesn't fit, they will go to see something else. I think that this is a terrific characteristic of the Americans. The rest of the world is not so pragmatic, I think, as the Americans. So rosé, maybe too many rosé that they were not very good out there. But some of them are yet very good and they're having yet success. So what is going to happen in the next few years? In the next few years, people are going to yet continue drinking less. The population is getting older. So we will have to do our quality homework back home even better. And be very careful because people are giving you only one chance these days. And now there is a sparkling wine moment. A lot of prosseco out there. I want to be very clear. You will not find a ornelaia or a maceto sparkling in the near future. Oh, you know, we are not following the trends. We are polishing and trying to do better what we are doing presently. The world, yes, now is a lot of sparkling. That is going to also pass over time. And what is going to pass? Those people that they've been, we say there's a train that goes in front of them. They jump on the train. They're not making their trend. They're jumping there. They are using somebody's sales strength. And if they're not going to increase their quality, they're going to be kicked out of the train very soon. So I don't think there's going to be revolution in the next five years. But yes, they're going to be less quantity consumed by people. So some areas of this world that they've started to do wine. Or some areas that they've been making wine since many years. But they've never really made the cut out there. They will have to start thinking of doing something else. Right? That's good insight. So we'd like to wrap each episode on a more personal note. And we would like to know what's the most cherished wine in your personal cellar and when do you plan on drinking it? But that's a good question. I'm the most unfaithful person that I know concerning wine. I'm happy married with Elonora. We have three kids, I don't know kids any longer. So when we talk about wine, I had a lovely bottle of wine. Once I tell you a story, I was just graduated. from UC Davis. I flew back from UC Davis. I went to a wine event and there was a Missy Krug those days yet the owner of Champagne Krug and this was this wine event and I went there and I went, I presented myself to him and I shaken hand to him and so we started chatting and I was a I was 24 years old and he said to me, "Wu-yoh, w-yuh" and then said, so he took a bottle of Krug and he assigned it, wrote it personally to Langberto and he wrote the night thing and and I went back home with Trophy and I put it on my cellar and I left it there. I was 24 years old. I got married at the age of 28. Maybe that was a good time of popping that cord. He was not enough getting married for that bottle and so I had the first kid and I waited. The second kid I waited. The third kid I waited. Once I was at my cellar and I was playing fixing my bottles and I took this bottle and I dropped it and I broke it. I broke it. So I took my hand, I went on the floor, I did like this and I tasted this wine like this but he told me a story. He told me that bottles need to be open. Don't be as stupid as I did of not opening for my wedding, not opening for my first kid, not opening for my second kid, or for my third kid. Every day there is an opportunity to pop a cord and to be happy about it. So I have a number of bottles out there that yet they need to be opened but my cellar is very, very small. I always beg for a number of wine producer friends to send me for Christmas as much wine as possible so I can feed up my cellar again because also what I love is to bring friends and other people wines rather than wines that we produce ourselves. Good lessons for sure. Well, Alberto, I want to thank you so much for sharing your stories and your insights with us and our listeners. Thank you very much for the opportunity and let's get together with a bottle of wine. Hey listeners, if you love this show, support it by buying a show notes book. They not only compile two years of episodes but also organizes them into themes for better learning. They can be an inspiration to listen to or relisten to an episode or provide a quick reference of the key learnings from a show. Go to xchatto.com and click on the store page for easy links to buy. Thanks for listening. Thanks for joining us. If you loved this episode of xchatto, we'd love for you to subscribe, rate, and give a review on iTunes or wherever you get your podcast. Until next time, cheers!