The Live Streaming Of a Public Execution | With Fort Hood Massacre Survivor Alonzo Lunsford

You do think he should be executed? Oh, absolutely. Putting him to death by fire squad, that's befitting. It makes America resemble North Korea, Iran, the Taliban. But even those authoritarian regimes have the decency not to stream it. Yeah, I want to put up against the wall and when I'm shot dead, yes, I would love to witness that bastard dying for what he did. Same folks who say they're pro-life are pro-death. What is this government trying to accomplish by turning the government killing of a prisoner into public entertainment? Is this justice? Is it revenge? Is it deterrence? Is it a TikTok video about how awesome Pete Hegseth is, bro? Do you think that this guy's going to live through the firing squad? Because he's not. The guy wanted to die, you know? That's what people who do things like that want to do. They want to become a martyr. So in a way, it's like you're giving him what he wants. You going to watch it? It's not that I'm going to watch, I'm going to be there. 17 years ago, a U.S. Army psychiatrist walked into a soldier-reddened center at Fort Hood. And opened fire, killing 13 people and wounding 32. Nidal Hassan brutally attacked the very people he was supposed to help. Men and women who were preparing to put their lives on the line in defense of their country. Few people are less deserving of our sympathy. Few have a weaker case for our mercy. But the decision to live stream his death by firing squad, making it the first public execution in 90 years, creates an ugly show and a global debate when none would have existed. War Secretary Pete Hegseth announced his decision to Jack Posobiec. Last week. Execution by firing squad. Army major betrays his country. Radical Islamist kills a bunch of Americans at Fort Hood. Of course we're going to do it at Fort Hood. We're going to do it on a Thursday. We're going to do it at 1 o'clock, which is when he did it. And it's going to be soldiers with rifles executing the firing squad. It hadn't been since World War II since we've done that. Well, I kind of like the mentality we had in World War II, which was win. And we'll make sure that people are able to watch it, that it's public, because people need to understand that. There's serious consequences for these types of things. The Fort Hood massacre happened at the height of the war on terror. It was framed as an existential battle against a sort of medieval people who carry out public executions. In the years which followed, the world recoiled at the barbarism of beheadings filmed for social media by ISIS. Nidal Hassan murdered his fellow soldiers because he was a self-declared jihadist. He'd been radicalised by an al-Qaeda cleric. And there lies the stupidity at the heart of this spectacle. Instead of the humble and lonely death that many will remember, Hassan will now die as a martyr. In his own twisted mind, he'll be a hero inflated by infamy. P. Hegses says he doesn't know and doesn't care if Hassan has made any last requests. He might just have granted them anyway. Well, to debate this, I'm joined by Alonzo Lunsford, survivor of the Fort Hood shooting, who was shot seven times, Andrew Wilson, the host of The Crucible, John Fuglesang, author of Separation of Church and Hate, and Mujahid Ali, the host of Democracy-ish. Well, welcome to all of you. Alonzo, thank you so much for being here. Alonzo Lunsford, let me start with you because no one is better placed to give an opinion about whether we should be watching this execution as Secretary of War P. Hegses wants us to do than you because you very nearly were killed by this man. What is your reaction to the prospect of the world watching as Nidal Hassan, the man who shot you seven times, is executed? Well, I have. Well, thank you for having me back on your show up here. But my thought process on this is I think that people don't want to see it, should see it. But I have stipulations on it. I don't think that it should be open for adolescents or kids to see. One. Two, in my personal opinion, this isn't a type of thing where you pull up and you have a tailgate and you're going to watch. This man finally paying a price for a heinous deed that he did 5 November 2009 against offensive people because as a country and as a culture, we're better than that. We don't need to go back to the days where we're having public executions and making a spectacle out of it because we do have some decency about us as a people. And. It's disrespectful to the ones who paid the supreme sacrifice that day and some that had made the sacrifice afterwards and then the ones that survived and the families of the deceased. Just because this man is being executed doesn't mean it's going to go away. So, in a nutshell, are you saying that you would, on balance, prefer it not to be live-streamed? I mean, the problem with trying to convince and control who would see it is that it only needs one person to record it and they'll put it out. So, it's going to get seen if anyone's allowed to see it outside the very close, controlled number of people that will personally witness it. Right. And I agree with that. Because, again, if it's leaked out, it's leaked out. However, it leads me to the initiative from the beginning to put some type of fail-safe systems on it because, again, young people, they can't physically or mentally process what they're going to see. They're going to find some kind of glory or entertainment out of that. That's not what it's all about. It's about this man committing a crime. He was given the senses of committing that crime and so then it's finally going to happen. But it's not something that is like a pay-per-view event or anything of that nature because the day of, won't nobody joke on the plane when the bullets was flying. Won't nobody joke on the plane when you're walking around and you smell the flesh, gunpowder, and blood to say a sign. It doesn't leave you. It wasn't like that when each and every one of us who got hit, be it if you survived or not, feel that initial pain. It wasn't like that when all of our families have been affected by this thing that this man was doing. And it wasn't that we did not know this man was a problem from the beginning. But that's because two different entities of the government, they decided, not to talk to each other. Henceforth, you had 14 killed, 32 wounded. And then after the 32 wounded, all the 32 are no longer here with us. So, I mean, the price is high. It's not for some freaking entertainment if somebody get a job to see somebody being put to death. But just to be clear, you do think he should be executed? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Okay. Let me bring in the other guest. Well, Jahan, welcome back to Uncensored. You know, like I said, few people are better probably positioned to talk about this than Alonzo, who was shot seven times and nearly murdered by this man. He thinks it's right to execute him, but wrong to have it live streamed to the world, particularly because once you do that, of course, young people, whether you try and stop them singing or not, they're going to see it. What is your view about this? You can have a debate about capital punishment and whether or not it's appropriate as a deterrence, especially in modern society. But I agree with Alonzo, and I think most sane, decent, people do is that the public spectacle of a public execution will only help our enemies who will say, look, you're killing a Muslim, Nidal Hassan Malik, as you are engaging in an illegal war in Iran, as you are supporting Israel's genocide. And furthermore, it makes America resemble North Korea, Iran, the Taliban. These are the authoritarian regimes that still engage in public hanging, in public executions. And why do they do that, Piers? Because public executions by an authoritarian regime is not a good thing. It's meant to control and intimidate a population. So if you want to become more totalitarian, if you want to resemble Kim Jong-un, if you want to resemble Iran, you do that. But even those authoritarian regimes have the decency not to stream it, not to engage in profit, not to make it into a public spectacle where people profit. This is a moral debasement. It is disgusting. It is gross. It will only hurt Americans. It will only incite and inflame anti-Americanism. And it will take us closer and closer to authoritarianism and the fact that Pete Hicks had said, oh, we're going to go back to World War II. That's when we won. Well, we defeated the Nazis in World War II, right? Now you have this administration promoting neo-Nazi conspiracies of white replacement, of the replacement theory, of re-migration, right? And notice how they chose Nidal Hassan Malik, a terrible person, a criminal. Patrick Crucious engaged in one of the worst shootings in El Paso, Texas. Dylan Roof engaged in one of the worst shootings. So they're deliberately using Nidal Hassan Malik, a Palestinian Muslim, during a, a failed war in Iran, during the genocide in Iran. And you tell me, Pierce, will this make us safer? Will this make us more beloved by Muslims around the world? Will this elevate us as we're engaging in trade wars and illegal wars? This is a spectacle of cruelty and barbarity by insecure men who want to take away attention from the Epstein files, from their corruption, from their failed policies. I hope Pete Hicks said, I don't know, man, high testosterone, go get therapy, get penis extension. I don't know what's wrong with you, bro, but you are failing as a secretary of war and your insecurities are going to make us less safe. Andrew Wilson, welcome back to you, to Uncensored. The issue I have, I'm in the UK at the moment where we don't have the death penalty. So there are two clear issues here. One is whether the death penalty should happen at all. And obviously America's had this separate issue with the Krista Pike situation, which has been appalling and has raised into question whether, You could even put people to death properly. It seems to be way more difficult than I imagined it is. Certainly way more difficult than a lot of these killers found it to kill people themselves, which is just a strange irony. But notwithstanding the fact that our countries have a different view about the death penalty, my thing with this is you lose all the high moral ground you might want to retain about people like ISIS, like al-Qaeda, like the others, who were jubilantly cutting people's heads off and live streaming it to the world. You know, I remember the fury and the outrage from many of the same people who are now jubilantly racing to support this guy being killed live in a live stream. And to me, they've forgotten how they felt at the time about the deaths of their own. And they've forgotten the fact that it's important when you're dealing with barbaric medieval terrorists, nihilistic villains, criminals, not to stoop to their level, which is why I don't think that they should live stream this. What's your view? Yeah, the moral argument is actually bizarre to me. So like the gentleman over here speaking out of both sides of his mouth, he says, well, wait a second. You know, this is a way to control and terrorize the population. It's like, I want these people who are in the population who would do shootings like this to be controlled and terrorized. What are you talking about? I'm just fine. I want them demoralized. I want them to know that the United States government's going to put them against the wall and shoot them. I want them to know that. I don't think that you have the moral high ground here because you say that a bunch of Taliban lunatic terrorists kill innocent people for reasons that we don't consider just. And yet somehow it's unjust for us to kill guilty people who deserve it. I think that the American people can see through that facade, this idea. That's the argument for killing him, which is, which is slightly different to the bigger argument raging about whether it should be live streamed to the world. What do you feel about the second part of the debate? Yeah, well, I mean, do you think that people are stupid? Like if we just pretend that this guy's not getting shot, that he's not getting shot? We know he's getting shot. And yes, tons of people want to tune in for this because they want to see justice served. What's wrong with that? We never saw how bin Laden was shot, for example, because the decision was taken was it would act as a fuel to martyrdom. And it would lead to that lead to it led to a bunch of conspiracy theories. It led to the idea that shield team six didn't actually kill him. It led to the idea that the US government was covering up that bin Laden was killed in the first place. It led to all sorts of other outcomes that you did not expect. There was actually no good reason not to hang bin Laden by his neck for everybody to see, except he was already dead. But that's what we did. We kill. That's what we did. We killed him. And there's nothing actually. wrong that I can see or unjust about taking a man who murdered a pregnant woman. The last words from her were Oh my God, my baby while she's holding her stomach, putting him up against the wall and shooting him dead. What What's wrong with that? No. Well, like, why do we have to? Why do we have to see it? You don't have to see it. Guess what's real fun. You can change the channel if you don't want to watch it. But you know, the reality of social media, the world we live in, within within half an hour, anybody who has a social media account, whether they want to or not, will see that clip. Yeah, first of all, as with Charlie, as with the murder of Charlie Kerr, we all saw it, whether we wanted to or not. Yeah, so do we have freedom and press in this country? Aren't you guys always talking about how the press needs to have access to basically everything? Otherwise, you're hiding things from them. What's wrong with the press recording this and putting it out to the world? Would you want to say you want to say you want your kids to see? Yeah, yeah, I want to put up against the wall when I'm shot dead. And yes, I would love to witness that bastard dying for what he did. Yes. Do you want your kids to see it? I probably wouldn't show it to my children. Maybe adult children, you know, like 1718 1920. I don't think it's going to hurt them any to see that a person who is a horrific murderer who butchered a pregnant woman gets put up against the wall and shot dead. Okay, John Ferguson, welcome back to you. Great to have everybody back on the show. What's your reaction to Andrew's view? Well, I want to say hello to everyone. Thank you for having me here. God bless you, Mr. Lungford. Donald Trump began this year giving a State of the Union address, where he criticized Iran for having their barbaric public executions. And he actually bragged, this is ancient history, I know, January, he bragged that he helped prevent more Iranian public executions. And now he wants to prevent more public executions. And now he wants to prevent America to stage public executions. The same people who decry big government think the government should be allowed to kill you and murder prisoners. The same folks who say they're pro life are pro death, the same folks who say all life is sacred, they get to decide who God thinks is sacred and who isn't now, Miss Major Hassan is a deranged, horrific mass killer. No one is saying that he is innocent in any way. He deserves to be incarcerated for as long as his victims remain dead. But what is this government trying to accomplish by turning the government killing of a prisoner into public entertainment? Is this justice? Is it revenge? Is it deterrence? Or is it a distraction from the carnality and murderous destruction of their failed illegal Iran war, the schoolchildren killed because of Pete Hegseth's incompetence? Again, as Waj said, here's the countries that have public executions, right? Iran, the Taliban, the Taliban, the Taliban, the Taliban, the Taliban. We hear North Korea, and now the United States. That's it. Those four. Saudi Arabia stopped doing this in 2019. So we're more barbaric than Prince Bonesaw. I don't enjoy pleading for the life of such a destructive, murderous man. But the Jesus of the Bible kind of commands me to. Because these guys boast about their Christianity peers. You've seen Pete Hegseth. These guys can't go through a press conference without talking about Jesus, Jesus. And they demand Jesus in the classroom and in the military. But when Jesus has access to the Bible, they demand Jesus in the classroom. And they demand Jesus in the military. But when Jesus has access to the Bible, they demand Jesus in the classroom and in the military. And if there's actually something to say in those red letters in the Bible about vengeance and punishment and the treatment of human beings, Jesus overturns eye for an eye in Sermon on the Mount. He stops an execution. He says only sinless people are allowed to execute. Is that Pete Hegseth? Is that you, Andrew? Is that Trump? Only sinless can execute? If you want to brag you're Christian, then you have to follow Jesus. If you're going to go killing prisoners for entertainment when Jesus says in Matthew 25 that how you treat the prisoner is how you treat him, then the rest of us are going to go kill prisoners for entertainment when Jesus says in Matthew 25 that how you treat the prisoner is how you treat him. If you're going to go killing prisoners for entertainment when Jesus says in Matthew 25 that how you treat the prisoner is how you treat him. If you're going to go killing prisoners for entertainment when Jesus says in Matthew 25 that how you treat the prisoner is how you treat the prisoner is how you treat him. If you're going to go killing prisoners for entertainment when Jesus says in Matthew 25 that how you treat the prisoner is how you treat the prisoner is how you treat the prisoner is how you treat the prisoner. If you're going to go killing prisoners for entertainment when Jesus says in Matthew 25 that how you treat the prisoner is how you treat the prisoner. Who is without sin? It was you. Didn't interrupt you. Calm down. I let you finish. So the thing that's really funny here, Mr. Fugel saying, is like we know what the reconciliation was in Acts. The different covenants are continuous. It's not that they're completely displaced or that the new replaced the old. That's not how it works. It's a continuous theological continuity. Both covenants are in place simultaneously. Yes, that's your own Catholic dogma. You don't follow Leviticus. That's your own Catholic. That's your own Catholic dogma, Mr. Fugel saying. You don't know what you're talking about. On top of that, you still haven't made an argument for why it is that it's unjust to put a man up against the wall who's a mass murderer and shoot him. Much as I'd like this to morph into a theological debate for the next three hours, I'm going to bring in the others for different parts of the debate. Alonzo, it's been 17 years since this. Massacre happened. You and I spoke in 2013 when I was at CNN and the jury had recommended the death penalty for Nidal Hassan. You told me then, which was four years after the event, how difficult it was to even have your children come up behind you without announcing themselves. And you said you wanted the punishment to be carried out quickly. Could you have imagined in 2013 that we would be in this position today, 13 years later? No. No, I never would have thought then that it would have taken as long as it has taken now, today. What are your feelings towards Nidal Hassan? Are you a religious man? Very. So what are your feelings towards him, given your faith? Okay. I've forgiven him because of my faith. I cannot heal myself unless I forgive him. Is it days where I wake up that I want to put my hands around his neck and I don't want to kill him. I just want to choke him to where his life is leaving his body, where he feels the power of my hands around his neck. Are there days where I wish that I could kill him by a thousand cuts or other horrific ways? Yes, there are. Like I was listening to the gentleman debate. Good, good, good debate. Oh, man, it's awesome. But that doesn't fit the issue at hand. Because both gentlemen were correct. The thing of it is, no, can I control who watches it? Like an adult, if you don't agree with it, then don't turn the channel. Don't look at it. If anybody else disagrees with it for whatever given reason, you don't have to look at it. But for children, can we stop them from getting information? No. But we can try our best to. Fix it to where they don't access information. Because, granted, the last time we had an execution like this was in World War II. But again, we're not back in an era where we are looking at this as an entertainment piece because of what this man did that day. Which I hear, yeah. I just, which I, you know, it's so interesting. I hear Alonzo talking there about forgiveness, but also days when he feels rage and murderous sometimes. And, of course, I'm sure we would all feel that range of emotions if we were in his shoes and had been shot seven times and seen people we knew murdered and so on. It gives him a unique perspective. But, you know, can you, on the one hand, practice forgiveness based on your faith and on the other, want to take this guy's life? Or particularly live stream it to the world? I mean, these are the perhaps contradictory parts of all this. Well, yeah, look, no one's more, oh, are you talking to me or Alonzo? Well, actually, Alonzo, if you want to just respond to that, then I'll go to you. Yeah, please, go ahead. I don't know if you understand. Putting him to death by fire squad, that's befitting because of what he did that day. Live by the sword, die by the sword. And just telling people, you do this thing that is against our laws and regulations, everything that we stand for, and it's the punishment for doing this thing. Okay, so, therefore, the crime was committed. He had due process. So, now he has to pay the price for this thing. As far as him being a martyr, I'm going to sit here and say that he failed in that mission, too, because a martyr is doing something noble. And what he did that day was not noble. And even if you read the Koran, a lot of what is stated that these people are doing is not supported by the Koran. The same thing with Christianity. It's like we had Jim Jones, a lot of people drank their Kool-Aid, and they met their death. That was not supported by the Bible. So, what you have is people that are in a position of power that look at people that are really not that educated or may have something going on where you can sway them to do things that are not good. You can sway them to do things. You can sway them to do things that are unspeakable. Now, what we're doing, supposedly on the 3rd of November, is we're sending a message. But not the message to the point where it's a, hey, did you pay your money for the pay-per-view? Or, hey, we all going to be in the backyard, we're going to watch this man put a death in a wheelchair. No, that's disrespect to the people that paid the price. And anybody that is in uniform. That has paid a price where, mentally or physically, you didn't come back the same way. When you wake up in the morning, you look at that person in the mirror, you're constantly reminded of the price that you paid to defend this nation against all enemies foreign and domestic. That's what it is. Can I ask you a question? If it's live streamed, are you going to watch it? It's not that I'm going to watch it, I'm going to be there. Yeah, right. But I mean, if you weren't. If you weren't there, would you watch it? Yes. You would watch it, right? I would. Well, with your head, let's just bring in this other execution death penalty story, which is the Krista Pike story. Because here you have a woman who was convicted of a despicable murder and been on death row and finally get around to wanting to kill her. And they fail. I mean, in a most exceptional way. Extraordinary manner. I mean, I'm sort of incredulous. Failed twice. Yeah, and I'm just like incredulous how that can happen. But it's happened, which shows a real flaw just in the execution process of the executions, never mind anything else. But it has reopened the whole debate in America about death penalty. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. And now we have the added thing of the live stream. I don't think it's going to end up being live streamed. I was a betting man. I think Trump is not going to let that happen. I think he'll want people to think it's going to happen, then it won't happen. It will be a part distraction to the midterms and so on. But I just can't imagine that President Trump is going to let the world watch this. I might be wrong, but I think when we talk about this after the event, it will have been done behind closed doors, albeit with people like Alonzo there, to see this person killed. But the Krista Pike element to this, what do you make of all that? Look, no one here is more Catholic than the Pope, J.D. Vance, whom I think he is. But even the Pope has come against the death penalty and specifically the public shooting and the streaming of Nadal Hassan Malik because about the sanctity of life, right? When it comes to Krista Pike, it's an excellent example of why so many countries have moved away from the death penalty, the U.K. in particular. They see it as a form of torture because all the data shows that public executions or even the death penalty does actually not deter violent crimes, right? So that's number one. Number two, people are saying. That many innocent people, especially in the United States of America, especially if you're poor or black, we have executed innocent black men that later are exonerated through DNA and blood. So the system is flawed. Now, look at this flawed system when it comes to Krista Pike. Here, a horrible act of violence. She's a murderer. No one here is going to debate that. They were not only cruel, they were incompetent. They failed twice, Pierce, to kill this woman. So she didn't die through lethal injection. Instead, she was in the hospital. Now she has permanent. Damage and the whole world, even Republicans, are like, my God, we have to be better than this. If this is what the death penalty brings about, is that two botched attempts to kill a woman, this is too much. And furthermore, this is the second time in Tennessee this has happened. So in addition to cruelty, there's also incompetence. So many people are like, whoa, whoa, let's revisit this. Why are we still doing this in the United States of America as the rest of the world has moved on? Now, when it comes to deterrence, Pierce, I do want to mention this. If you look at America, if you look at Israel, what do they say? Punch. Back harder. We're going to show them. We're going to put our boot on the neck. The worst crime that happened in my lifetime in America was the 9-11 terror attacks, right? 3,000 Americans and many people from foreign countries were killed by 19 foreign hijackers. You and I opposed the war on terror, right, Pierce? What happened as a result of war on terror? America hit back hard, right? Apparently, 4 to 4.5 million people died directly or indirectly as a result of the war on terror. Did it all of a sudden make the world safer? Did it all of a sudden kill? all these extremists, you saw the birth of ISIS, you saw the ISIS and Taliban. You saw public executions. You saw some people radicalized. You saw some of these violent extremist groups use this as recruitment. And so what's going to happen with the public execution of Nassar al-Malik, a Palestinian Muslim American, who was in part radicalized by the war on terror? They will say, see, see, the West is at war with Islam. They're killing Iranians. They're killing Palestinians. They're killing the Lebanese. We're going to get recruitment. It will make us less safe. And meanwhile, you have cosplay crusaders like Andrew, who will make millions of dollars spreading hate, but he's not going to go and fight. Our soldiers would go and fight. And I wish he and others would have the grace of Alonzo, who is a victim, a survivor. And even he says, hey, hey, hey, I'm torn about the death penalty, but I'll go see it. I'm a survivor. But at the very least, we should not stream this because this will not act as a deterrence. This will be barbaric. This will put it in the leagues of North Korea, Iran and Taliban, and we can be better. And I think, especially with Krista Pike, it really begs the question, maybe the death penalty should be phased out in America, because if this is the death penalty, what's the difference between this and public torture, Pierce? Right. Andrew Wilson, I mean, that is a valid point. If you if you if you I can dive into the points. Yeah. So first of all, the whole problem with the Pike thing is the methodology, right? You go in, you put a 45 to the back of the head, you pull the trigger, and then it's over. The problem is, is you're trying to give him lethal injection where there's tons of room for error. You think that this guy's going to live through the firing squad? Because he's not. He's not going to live through it. Because that's what happens when you get hit with multiple bullets, you die quickly. That's the problem. So just change the methodology. Boom, back of the head, dead, done. How will you feel, Andrew? How will you feel? If they go ahead with this firing squad of Nidal Hasan, and it is live streamed, and within a few weeks or months, God forbid, an American, serviceman is captured, and a jihadist group put him on live stream and kill him. And they say, well, you did it. How, what would your response be to that scenario? So we're supposed to cede, we're supposed to cede something that's just because then terrorists will do something that's unjust to us. No, it's more about, it's more about not giving them the excuse that they're craving. That would actually be ceding, that would actually be ceding ground to terrorists. That's the whole point. The whole point is if you're changing public policy and the things that you want to see happen, which are justice based, because somebody else might do something which is then unjust to somebody who didn't deserve it, then you're actually ceding the very ground that you're trying to fight against in the first place. I think you're ceding a very important high moral ground, which ought to differentiate the civilized world from the barbaric world of nihilistic jihadists. What makes it less or more moral, though? That's the whole problem I have. Nobody's made an argument for how it's less or more moral. He's made an argument about how there could be blowback from people who already hate us. Sure, I can see that that might be true. There's going to be blowback for any type of public policy, see that that, but where's this higher moral ground coming from? What these people did was horrific, horrific. And by the way, Pike, didn't she try to escape from prison? Does anybody remember that we had a famous serial killer who escaped from prison named Ted Bundy who killed more women? Like, we're just going to pretend that that didn't happen? The thing is, funny here is like, you actually cede the ground of allowing these people to go and hurt other people because you don't have the testicular fortitude to put a bullet in them. And the truth is, is the American people actually want that to happen. They actually want them to die because they're horrible people. And here you are, you're talking about Pete Hex says penis size. Oh, he has a small dick because he wants to kill this. It's like, no, how about you grow some balls and put these people down? They should be put down. John Fogel is saying your response. I mean, Christian right wing fundamentalist lunatics murdering their prisoners on camera, like Islamic right wing fundamentalist lunatics. Not murder. That's not murder. In the case of Chris, Murder is unjustified killing, is what Fogel is saying. No, no, no, no. Please, Andrew, I know how much you enjoy not interrupting. Let's be honest. Now, these people say big government, big government, but they think the government should be allowed to murder people. They think it's not murder when the government straps a person to a chair and fills them with poison or shoots them till they die. These pro-lifers are giddy for murder. And it's kind of funny because we kill people who kill people to say that killing people is wrong. I think that's the moral argument here. Let's also not lose the tiny factor that Pete Hexeth is responsible for substantially more deaths of innocent people than the odious murderous Major Hassan. At least 235 deaths with no evidence, no due process of fishermen and boats off the coast of Venezuela. Over 150 children killed on the first day of this illegal, stupid war in an Iranian girls school. The UN's fact finding mission reported that we were responsible for that strike. This is Pete Hexeth, who killed all those people who wants you to know they're going to kill this other guy because he killed people. Now, either killing people is wrong or killing people is not wrong. But this murder on camera, it's not going to deter anybody. I think you're right. This is going to give tons of propaganda to our foreign opponents who will then think it's okay to be ISIS all over again with their arguing to do what ISIS did to murder prisoners on camera. It's not going to make Americans safer. This guy's in a wheelchair, Major Hassan. He's a paraplegic. He's not going to tunnel out. And no one's going to walk away from this murder on camera with any kind of renewed appreciation for the Sermon on the Mount. This is what happens when Christianity stops following the guy who stood up to power and becomes like a branding exercise for people obsessed with power. This is not Christianity being a check on power. This is power dressed up in Christian drag and it's state sponsored murder. Again, you can quote other non-Jesus chapters. It's not murder. Jesus brought a new covenant and you cannot find any gospel teaching of Jesus where Jesus, I know you hate interrupting, dude. There's no. Well, dude, he can't monologue for the rest of the show. Jesus is okay with murdering prisoners. He says how you treat the prisoners, how you treat him. Can he answer the question, is killing always murder? No, sometimes it's. Is killing always. Okay, great. Sometimes it's not murder. So whenever you say these things like, oh, they're killing him, they're killing him. But when someone's unarmed and you're shooting him, it's murder, Andrew. You like it. Hang on. They're killing him. So you don't call it murder, but it's still murder. Stop, stop, stop. Even if you like it, it's murder. The thing that's funny here is like, if it's the case that you can kill and it's not murder, because what murder means is an unjustified killing. That's what it means. This would be a justified killing, Mr. Fugel saying. Who says? It's a justified killing. The Jesus you pretend to follow differs, Andrew, the Jesus you pretend to follow differs quite substantially on that. Nope. How you treat the prisoners, how you treat him, turn the other cheek instead of eye for an eye. You're treating the prisoner. Listen. Who is sinless, Andrew, according to the Jesus you guys use as camouflage, who gets to carry out the assassination? Who gets to do it? There's not an assassination. According to John A., who gets to do it? This is what Pope Leo posted about all this in the last few days. He said, "The death penalty is inadmissible because it's an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person. The common good can be safeguarded and the requirements of justice can be met without recourse to capital punishment. Effective systems of detention have been developed to protect citizens while at the same time do not completely deprive those who are guilty of the possibility of redemption." Andrew, we heard Alonzo talk about forgiveness. If you are a person of faith, as we all are I think here, this idea of forgiveness, of redemption, the possibility of redemption, obviously what the death penalty does, it ends all that. Are you comfortable with that from your faith position? Yeah, it's just like. Listen, I'm really sorry that this happened. What happened to this gentleman is horrible. Okay. It really is. But I also understand him wanting to go and watch this guy get killed. I do. I understand it. I understand him wanting to see it. I understand him wanting to see his victimizer get put down like the rabid dog he was when he murdered a pregnant woman. She's curled in a fetal position. Last words again, "Oh my God, my baby." And this idea that there's some moral high ground here because Fuglesang doesn't know what murder is, because he doesn't understand that that just means unjustified killing, that the state putting down murderers is part of the state's job in fact. And that is not a murder, that is a justified killing. And now when you're talking about the Catholic church, which is interesting there, the Catholic church contests this. It's contested within the church, just like in the Orthodox church. And even if Pope Leo says this. You can't quote Jesus, man. You can't do it. That's not a decree, which is hilarious. So it's funny how this works. It's still heavily contested within those two churches. Folks, he can't quote Jesus to justify this. He can't quote Jesus. You don't kill prisoners under Jesus. It's not covered under his policy. You're not going to quote Christ. What about the Apostles? Let me give the final word on this too. Am I allowed to quote the Apostles who got the teachings from Jesus? You're allowed to do whatever you want because you can't quote Jesus to justify killing a prisoner. You can't do it. Keep trying. You still get to enjoy it, Andrew. Are we supposed to adhere to state authority? Are we supposed to adhere to state authority, Mr. Fuglesingh, according to Jesus himself? All right, let me bring you along. I believe Jesus got killed because he didn't adhere to state authority. already but that's another topic let me bring in alonzo again but are we supposed to give to caesar what is caesar's and didn't paul say that we should adhere to state authority that that we get exactly the rulers that we deserve to have caesar let's give it back to pierce please okay i want to just give the last word on all this to alonzo because we've been trying to get in alonzo gentlemen that day won't no damn body named caesar apostle anybody that got killed that day or won't we're going way off topic here all right because the thing about it is that even right now in my faith i've forgiven him do i want him to feel the same pain i feel oh absolutely do i want him to feel what those families are feeling absolutely my biggest thing is i don't want this to be made no spectacle now let me throw something at you now if this is like that are you all willing to live with these sleeping pills sales is going to pop up because we know that nobody can is going to invade our country to do anything one you got to worry about the military you got to worry about his citizens second amendment right citizens walking around here all right we're not going back to those days okay so it's basically like six of one hand half a dozen and the other about if you agree with it or you don't agree with it my biggest issue is these kids because mentally they cannot handle this because if you look at a kid and look at a video game you 2k for basketball and then try to use those same moves just on a freaking game to get a scholarship then you done lost your rabbit mind just like you got kids that are skinny to walk around here with a machine pistol down their pants thinking it's cool but by the time you pull it and discharge you already date oh i got a switch on my glock now realizing when you fire the switch it's gonna go up and to the right you haven't hit shit because you haven't been trained the man committed a crime he's gonna pay the debt for the crime now granted because he's muslim he prays five times a day so what got out was why he was before he prays when he's being clean he was taunting his captain so there are people pissed off behind it i mean i'm pissed off behind it but it's the look that that man had in his eyes that day and i'm pissed off behind it but it's the look that that man had in his eyes that day that man had in his eyes that day and i'm pissed off behind it but it's the look that that man had in his eyes that day again. Another old figure from my CNN day. So lovely to see you looking so well. Thank you. You too. This whole issue of the death penalty has come under massive forensic light in the last few weeks, partly because of the Krista Pike fiasco where they made two botched attempts to actually execute her. And obviously now with the threat by Pete Hegseth, they're going to live stream the execution by firing squad of Nidal Hassan, the Fort Hood shooter. What is your view of what this says about the death penalty debate in America right now? Well, I haven't made a secret of my views on the death penalty, and it isn't for any moral question before anybody throws peanuts at the screen. It's really because we're so imperfect, you know. I just feel as though if you're going to have the ultimate judgment, you better be as good as Jesus. And we are far from that. And I've got stats coming out of the yin yang, and it's roughly around 4.1%, the estimation by the government that we get it wrong when we condemn people to death. Not that we execute, because actually people don't go to the courts very often after someone's dead to relitigate, figure it out, exonerate. It does happen, very little. Most of the efforts are actually at saving the living who might be innocent. So we're really good at getting the statistics, but it's roughly extrapolated to about 4% of those who are given a death penalty that are actually innocent. And that's very troublesome to me. Yeah. And after you're going to interview a guy called Damien Eccles, who was one of the West Memphis Three, and I interviewed two of them at the time after their release, after they were exonerated, 18 years or so after they were imprisoned and put on death row and treated appallingly in prison because they'd been falsely accused of murdering three young boys in a forest. That was actually one of the reasons I personally switched my view about the death penalty, because they would have been killed if it had happened on a sooner timescale. And it turned out they were completely innocent. And I just couldn't justify in my head executing people by mistake. And it happens a lot more than people think. And I think that, and I think DNA has been a big part of exposing that actually, where a lot of crimes have been resolved years and years, decades later in some cases by DNA. And you think, well, how many people have been executed around the world on false allegations? Well, about 203 since 1973, when America went back sort of towards 50-50 on the death penalty, you know, and a number of states adopted it. And I can't say that 203 have actually been executed, but at least 203 people who got a death penalty, um, adjudicated at trial have been proven to be innocent. And that's troublesome. Um, how many of them might have gone to the execution had it not been for DNA? And that's not to say that DNA is perfect. I also think on the other side of the coin, so many of us have decided, well, our crime fighting tools are so elite. Now we've got DNA. It's perfect. It's only as perfect as a handler. And I think we have all seen just horrendous cases of labs that are oversubscribed you know, under, uh, educated and, uh, woefully inept at actually keeping samples straight. I myself, peers have covered numerous cases where the lab results ended up being the definitive reason someone was convicted. And then lo and behold, oh, dang, uh, it wasn't his sample. So we, again, I just keep coming back to, we are so imperfect. We do our best at American jurisprudence. We do, but we suck. But here we have it. There's another component of course, with the Nidal Asan, which is this threat to live stream it to the world. How do you feel about that? I think I'm with Alonzo on this one. Um, peers before you and I got to know each other at CNN, I had been a war correspondent. I had been to 26 different countries after nine 11. And I witnessed, you know, what justice was like in many of these places and coming back to America. Um, I had the epiphany that, oh dear, we are now in a, uh, a club I prefer not to be in with North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, places that, um, enact the death penalty. And some of them are still beheading and in public, in the public square. And so, uh, to, to join those ranks yet again with public executions, it just feels a bit medieval to me. And Alonzo said it best, I think, where I don't think children should be subjected to this. And if you're going to live stream something for God's sake, we all know that children can get porn pretty easily. Now they can get killing. I just think it puts us in a different order of human beings. It's not, it's not the order I want to be in. Yeah. And, you know, I was arguing with Andrew Wilson there about the high moral ground. I do think it's important that countries like America and the UK, you know, remember the high moral ground. It's a very useful weapon when you're dealing with people for whom morality and the rest of it is an irrelevance to their nihilistic or jihadist ambitions. And I think the moment you see the high moral ground by behavior, you know, it's a very useful weapon. And I think if you're behaving exactly in the same barbaric way as the other side, well, then you should expect people to just view you all as the same. Yeah. I think if we believe that a public firing squad is going to chasten would-be jihadists, I've got 19 people I'd like to introduce you to who gave no shits about flying themselves into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. And so it's been proven over and over again that the death penalty is not a deterrent for criminals, be them jihadists or otherwise. Jihadists actually impose their own death penalties. So I'm not exactly sure why this became policy suddenly out of nowhere, out of the blue, that we would live stream an execution. But again, it does put us in a category of nations that I think if most people actually did the research, they'd prefer not to be associated with. Yeah. Do you think he's going to get live streamed in the end? I don't. I don't. I watched Tom Tillis on Friday night on HBO, on Bill Maher's program, and he pretty eloquently said it. And I think there are enough. I think there's enough Republicans who are prepared to say, well, that's that's a line we're not ready to cross. And I think they will say something. I think I think even Trump himself said, yeah, I heard about that. I think he's acknowledging that he heard about that, but he didn't. He didn't confirm it. I think that's enough for us to realize that perhaps he's hedging on this one. I don't think it's going to happen. Ashley Bedford, great to talk to you. Thank you very much indeed for coming on. Good to see you again, Piers. Well, I'm joined now by Damien Echols, who was wrongly convicted as one of the West Memphis Three and spent 18 years on death row. Damien, it's great to see you again. I've not spoken to you in about 13 years either. First up, how are you doing? I'm doing really well. First off, thank you for having me on here again. It's taken me a lot of years to kind of work through the trauma of everything that we experienced. But I feel like I'm finally on my path now to living a content and happy life. I want to play a clip. This is from when we spoke when I was at CNN and you were talking about the fact you hadn't really been exposed to any natural sunlight in all the time you were incarcerated and it had a really bad effect on your eyes and your sensitivity and you didn't see dark glasses for some of the interview. Not in the clip I'm about to show, but you're talking about this. Let's take a look. I hadn't seen daylight in almost a decade. I hadn't been exposed to sunlight. In 10 years? Almost 10 years. Yes. What are you thinking throughout this period? I mean, this is for an innocent man, as many believe that you are, and you've always protested this. What are you thinking when you're stuck in there? The only thing, the only thing you can do to maintain your sanity is to not think about the case and not think about what's happening to you. You have to sort of immerse yourself into a routine and never deviate from that routine. Work out your own exercise regimen. Work out a meditation regimen. Start some sort of practice, whether it be artwork, writing, whatever it is. You have to create your own world in there or you'll go insane from that stuff. In the context of that, I notice you're wearing shades today. Is that because of ongoing issues with your eyes? Yeah, they've actually continued to get worse since I've been out. I'd had a lot of physical ailments that were the result of, you know, things like poor nutrition and sleeping on concrete for almost two decades, lack of sunlight, all of that stuff. It really takes a toll, not just on your mental and emotional health, but also on your physical health. There's obviously been a lot of stuff about the death penalty in the news recently, which made me think of you. Because I said to a previous guest, I did change my view about the death penalty after I interviewed you. I found the interview profoundly moving in many ways. And also, it just made me aware that had you been executed on a shorter timeline, then you would have been exonerated after you were dead, which is obviously no good to you or anybody else in that position. And since DNA came out, I've done lots of crime series where I interviewed lots of serial killers and psychopaths and so on. But in a number of those cases, latterly, I've noticed noticed that DNA evidence was used to catch the real killers, the real perpetrators, and often other people had been framed for them and were serving time exactly as you had done. What do you feel about the death penalty, given what happened to you? Were you a believer before you were put in prison? And how do you feel now? I think when I was, you know, I was basically still a kid whenever I was sent to prison. I was 18 years old, so it honestly wasn't something that I'd given a great deal of thought to one way or the other. I think my exposure to things like that would have been what the average person's is, which is, you know, seeing it on television shows, things like that. But it wasn't anything that I'd ever, you know, sat down and really thought deeply about. And it's still, to this day, I don't think, you know, even after going through everything that I went through, I don't think it's a black and white situation. I think there's a lot of gray areas there, you know, I knew people when I was on death row who had completely rehabilitated themselves and experienced extreme remorse for things that they had done in their lives. And those people could have been used in some way. You know, those people could have helped add, you know, they could have done programs to help rehabilitate other people, you know, through their experiences. I think we were wasting a resource by executing those people. But at the same time, I also saw people in there who would, until the day they were released, the day they die, go on to continue to hurt and kill other people, even behind bars, whether it was prison guards or whether it was, you know, other prisoners, even innocent prisoners. So I don't think it's as, you know, black and white as most people want it to be. I think there's a lot of shades of gray there. And I think my feelings about it are still almost too massive to get a finger hold or a hand hold on. But it's just, it's a very big thing for me that I still wrestle with to this day. When you have somebody like Nidal Hasan, where there's no doubt about what he did, and he mass murdered a huge number of people and wounded many others, do you feel that the death penalty is a valid form of punishment in a case like that? I don't think the death penalty is ever a valid form of punishment. You know, I don't think any of the things people usually use it, associate it with, you know, like being a deterrent, things like that, I don't think any of that stuff is really valid. I think the only time that stuff like that might even come close to being valid is if you were using it because you knew this was a situation where this person was going to go on to hurt even more people. So I don't think, you know, using it for something like a punishment is ever going to work. But in the case, interestingly, then, of the inmates that you were in with who did keep killing people even when they were inside, would you think, is there a purpose in keeping people like that alive or is it actually, you know, the right thing for society to end their lives to stop them continuing to kill other people? You know, I'm honestly, to tell the truth, not even comfortable speculating about stuff like that because it kind of forces me to put myself in the position of judge, jury, and executioner. And that's not something that I would ever, you know, those aren't shoes that I would ever want to step into. And what about this idea that it may be live streamed, that he'll be killed by firing squad and it live streamed to the world? What do you think of that? To be honest, I think it's absolutely horrifying. And I don't think anything good could come from that. You know, like everyone knows by now, the death penalty is not a deterrent, as in stopping other people from committing these sorts of crimes. And as a matter of fact, the guy wanted to die. You know, that's what people who do things like that want to do. But I also think it's much bigger than that. You know, like someone was saying earlier, children are going to see this. You know, we live in an age where even if you choose to try not to view these things, it's going to get turned into memes and people are going to be reposting it and you're going to come in contact with it. Even if you don't want to see these sorts of things. And I think, you know, that saying about how you are what you eat, I think that goes far, far beyond just what we consume food wise. I think that that's also true of everything that we choose to take into our minds and into our hearts. And I think if you consume stuff like this, it slowly poisons you. It desensitizes you and it does things to us that just are not beneficial to our own personal lives or to society as a whole. You, I believe, did see somebody commit a murder when you were in prison and it had quite a big effect. More than once. And it had a big effect on you watching this happen. Tell me about that. Absolutely. The very first time I ever saw someone murdered when I was in prison, it was a guard that was stabbed to death by an inmate. And this was a guard that had actually shown kindness to me. You know, he wasn't like. Like completely inhuman. And he was stabbed to death just because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. And to this day, I can't tell you exactly what it did to me. Like there's. I can't articulate it. I just know that it felt like it broke something in me in a way that would never be healed and never be normal again. Like after that happened, I cried for about three days. But I could not have told you why I was crying. Like if you could have. If you asked me, "What are you crying for?" I could not have even articulated. I just knew that something in me had been broken from being in proximity to that and witnessing that. What do you think should have happened to the person who did perpetrate the crimes that you were falsely accused of? I think they should be in prison for the rest of their lives. And it should probably also be investigated whether they committed any other crimes. Because I personally find it hard to believe that someone who would commit a crime of the kind you were accused of and imprisoned for would just stop doing it after that. It was a very heinous thing. So I think even more investigation should be done. And as a matter of fact, we didn't stop working on this case after I got out of prison. We're still doing more DNA testing right now. We're waiting to hear results that could come in potentially any day now. The original round of testing that we did excluded me and the other two men from the crime scene. But what we're doing right now is we are hoping that the testing that's being carried out will actually pinpoint the person who committed these murders. Do you have a suspicion who it is? I do. Yeah, I do. I had a lot of time to sit and think about this. And I don't think it's who most people are thinking it is. There's been a lot of speculation on this case by various people who all have suspects in mind for different reasons. I think it's someone who hasn't even been looked at or considered. I don't want to put any names on it yet, because I could very well be wrong. And I don't want to do the same thing to someone else that was done to me, you know, pointing the finger at someone. But I think it's someone who no one has even considered yet. I think either they were responsible for it as a whole, or they contributed to it in some way. Wow, it'll be fascinating if that develops. Damien, really good to speak to you again. Thank you for all this time, and to see you looking so well. I wish you all the very best. You too. Thank you so much for having me and speaking to me again. Piers Morgan Uncensored is proudly independent. The only boss around here is me. If you enjoy our show, we ask for only one simple thing: hit subscribe on YouTube and follow Piers Morgan Uncensored on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. And in return, we will continue our mission to inform, irritate, and entertain. And we'll do it all for free. Independent. Independent media has never been more critical, and we couldn't do it without you.