The moment a body is found, the clock starts ticking 48 hours before the trail goes cold. From A&E and Crime House, this is the official podcast from the famous True Crime series, The First 48, I'm Carter Roy. Every Thursday, I revisit a landmark homicide investigation in depth with long-form storytelling built for your ears. Listen to and follow The First 48 on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or Wherever You Listen to Podcasts. I'm Brett. And I'm Alice. And we are The Prosecutors. [Music] So, we're back with the Lindsay Clancy case. It's day 11 of the trial. And we started with something a little different who didn't go straight into testimony, even though we had a cross examination that we told you is going to be really big and exciting and fiery and all sorts of stuff. You'll never trust us again. But so, we start off with a motion. And this was a motion to call a woman named Emily Thorndyke to testify. Now, she has her own therapy business and you might think, "Okay, that's probably why they want to go." No, no. Her more relevant qualification is she's on TikTok. And maybe you have probably seen her TikTok video because it was all about McClain. McClain, which is supposedly one of the best facilities in the world, well, she worked at McClain. A few years ago, about a year before Lindsay was there. It's going to become relevant later. And she just like blasted the place. I mean, basically described it as a resort but less fun. No real interaction, no real doctors, no real treatment. You're just kind of hanging out there. I mean, it was really negative. That's the way she described it. Honestly, because we're lawyers. We deal with this all the time. Classic disgruntled former employee. Right. And I thought it was interesting because the defense attorney, this is a late motion to add her to the witness list. And one of the things he said, I want to share the judge, she wasn't fired. She didn't leave under any kind of suspicion because that's exactly what I think everybody thought. Like, oh, yeah, sure. So he wants to call this woman because she had this TikTok. It went viral. And this is the world we live in. He emailed him. He tries to find her. They send her some emails. She apparently thinks the emails are AI. So she doesn't respond. I don't know. They track her down. Now she's willing to testify. And there's this whole question about whether or not they should allow this late breaking witness. And let me just tell you, as a legal matter, the answer is obviously no. No. No. There's so many reasons. No relevance. No relevance. She lays it there. And Lindsey was there. She can't testify to the conditions. And the defense attorney, Reddington's like, well, I'm sure nothing changed. How do you know that? Like, you don't know that it would be, it would be like, have a traffic accident. Like whether someone ran a red light and you're going to have someone who walked by that intersection three years earlier. And it was like, it was really busy that day. But light turns from red to green every single time. And so the obvious response is call someone who was there when she was there, even if they're not still there. And if you want someone to describe the conditions. Now, obviously, there was already a doctor who testified he was from McLean. Now she's part of the lawsuit. And she, because of that, Reddington argues she has a vested interest and maybe not describing it accurately. And she wasn't there over the weekend. And Lindsey was there so she can't describe the conditions then. But guess who else wasn't there that weekend? This witness. So the judge who just, I mean, today was just ridiculous of this judge. I don't understand. I don't know if he is now a gunshot because he just got reversed in a big murder case. But he just refuses to say no to the defense at this point. To the extent there was one part during the trial where Reddington literally asked a witness to speculate about something. The prosecution objects with those words, I think, the judge over rules in the law. It was almost one of those stringency object. The lawyer laughing says, judge, call speculation. And he's like, oh, well, you can address it and read it. What? No. That's not how it works. That's not how this works. Just sustain the objection. It's not the end of the world, but he can't do it. And he has yet to rule on this. Who knows what's going to happen? He hasn't ruled on the first motion about the experts, either. And this person obviously now has a bias. I mean, she went on TikTok, got viral and said about this case, about this case, knocking McLean. Now when she testifies what she going to do, she going to get up there and say, well, actually, I just made all that up in my TikTok video. I mean, it's just, there's so much wrong with this and rule of sequestration. Typically, your witnesses don't get to sit. Can't watch other testimony. Does it affect their own testimony? She's been watching the whole trial. So she's been talking it. Been taking it. Anyway, so that's where we're at with that. It has not been decided. We'll see. I don't know. I would say I think this will be denied. But at this point, I think the judge is going to let it in. And so that's probably what's going to happen. So that happens we get through that and we go back to nurse Paul, me recall, testimony yesterday about how she treated Lindsey when Lindsey came to her facility that she started her post part of women. And you kind of felt like there's a lot of the same ground to cover as with toughs. She didn't request toughs records. She prescribed an SSRI to Lindsey. Now she didn't see her for that long. But nevertheless, she's very involved in this. And by the way, she is being sued by Lindsey. She is in her most recent amended complaint. So you thought this is going to be another big cross examination. Interestingly, Reddington decides not to do that. In fact, he not only doesn't cross examine her in a harsh way, he doesn't cross examine her at all. He asks like one question and then says that she treated Lindsey competently in his view. I'm sure the civil lawyers like don't say that. But you know, and then it was over. It was done. And she stepped out. And I'm curious, Alice, what did you think about that approach? So in a strategic way, he should have done that. Right? In a sense that if he really stepped back and was not drinking his own Kool-Aid, he should have recognized that he really did go too far in the defense in terms of losing the jury and his own likeability. And you can imagine, okay, she only treated her for one week. Let me reign it back so that I don't have back to back appearances of bullying women practitioners who've given their lives to treating women who are facing mental struggles, especially in the postpartum stage. So that's what like a good strategic lawyer would do. I don't think that's what happened. I don't think that's why he didn't cross her. The like, crass reason. I don't necessarily think this is true, but I think it's possible. I don't think he's a court appointed attorney. So he's being paid for something. And his client is Lindsey Clancy. Lindsey Clancy herself is probably not paying these bills. Somebody is. Well, guess whose friend Nurse Paul is? Patrick Clancy's mom. It could be as simple as the people paying the bills just be like, could you just not tear apart our friend? That's the crass reason. I have no basis to believe that because, frankly, the civil lawyers have sued Nurse Paul. So she could be fair game for everybody in the lawsuit. I think maybe if he did have kind of an ounce of self-awareness, Nurse Paul was clearly very experienced and had a more confident composure about herself. I don't know if she's ever testified before, but just the way she presented. She was not going to be a shrinking violet. She was not going to back away from the microphone in a way that he was able to kind of manipulate and make doctor tough seem like a young girl who didn't know anything about what she was doing even though she substantively knew everything. He could have just kind of seen that and thought this won't go as well for me because I do really well bullying people who I perceive as being able to overpower. And so he could have just backed off on that. But it was a strategically good move. I don't think beating up two practitioners who clearly did everything they could to treat Lindsey would have been a good look for the jury. Now here's the one thing I'll say about this. I think as I said, there's some inconsistency here because she did take actions. I mean, she prescribed an SSRI much later in this process than toughs did. Now you're right, she saw for very little time. Now there's obviously a strategy to not tearing apart a witness right after you've done it with a previous witness because that sends a signal to the jury. Okay.
He doesn't do this with everybody and you see this in some cases where the defense attorney just goes after everybody like they're the devil and It becomes difficult for the jury to figure out or any of these people really the devil or is this just what you do? So I think that comparison Heitened in the jury's mind. Oh man that tough lady must have been really bad because he didn't go after this lady like that And there's some similar issues. So I think there's that I also kind of think he was a little scared of her I mean not and not in a pejorative way. I mean he's been doing this for a long time My dad is like shaking his boots, but scared of her in that he did not know how well she would respond to him You know, it's one thing to go after somebody who's relatively new who probably has some insecurities about their abilities That's one thing to go after somebody who's been doing this who can go toe-to-toe with you That's another so I think you're right about that. I think he had some concerns there now I will say this and I think the reason he didn't do this is because of what I just said because he wasn't exactly sure What she would say. I do think he missed a little bit of an opportunity to just be nice to her and just have her explain Postpartum depression postpartum psychosis postpartum anxiety. What are the symptoms? How hard is it to discover? How should you treat it? Like he could have gotten information out of her that might have Effected the next witness now one reason I think he didn't do that because I think she probably would say Basically what the other doctors did. I was gonna say one thing But it would have been risky because I don't actually think any of the other doctors did anything that was not kind of what any Practitioner would do is to basically since she practiced with her for such a short amount of time one week to basically get her to agree To certain practices that did not happen in Lindsay's practice and say well, wouldn't you have Followed up on the adivan and made sure she had stopped wouldn't you have done this in this things that she Because of the sequestration she wouldn't know that's not necessarily in Dr. Tufts records and make the other doctors look by Comparison that they didn't do the best practices while he's asking her hypotheticals Like wouldn't you do this this and this and if you had known that she had called the suicide hotline twice Wouldn't you have followed up with this this and this and if you knew she was taking the Benadryl with it? Wouldn't you have ensured that she had actually stopped drinking before you prescribed another Prescription it out of it. It's something like that where it's all hypotheticals and then he can pull it out at cross-examination and say You heard from nurse Paul who went back to treat women because we know how desperate the situation is for postpartum women Who are struggling so bad that there are no practitioners and she went back to the second career to treat these women and oh If only she'd stuck around and hadn't moved to New Hampshire then Lindsay could have had her treatment as she told you herself She would have ensured X Y and Z you know what didn't happen X. You know what didn't happen. Why you know what didn't happen? Z that could have been really effective and she wouldn't have had to get under anyone's skin for nurse Paul no one By no one. I mean the witnesses would not have been able to connect the dots and he could have laid himself enough crumbs For the closing to be this like banger. I just think he was afraid she would say Essentially I would have done what everybody else did without saying that because she doesn't know because like he said She did not watch their testimony, but if she's like oh, yeah, you know talking to somebody through the television's a great way to do it She'd have done that then that would have been more difficult for him So I think that's part of it, but look he did no harm by not crossing her And I think he probably bought some goodwill with a jury I know I was ready to be mad at him if he'd really gone after her and maybe some of the jury was too So I think this was a good move by him and a good decision and I'm glad he made it and so he saved Sort of saved his fire. What's talk about this later for the next witness who took up the rest of the day Rebecca Jalata a name that we've heard a lot a name that we talked about in the first few episodes when we went through her treatment progression And many of the medications that she was prescribed So you may remember nurse Jalata she's a psychiatric nurse practitioner and if you remember from this is now being sequential in terms of Lindsay's Care she was working with nurse Paul and as nurse Paul was leaving the practice She handed the care of Lindsey to nurse Jalata now a Rebecca Jalata had a lot of experience She came to South Shore Pairing and it'll to work with nurse Paul and two of them I think with another nurse practitioner treated women with postpartum psychosis and again This is rare, but she treated about five women who suffered from this in about five years now with respect to women who suffered from postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety She said that she had treated hundreds of these types of women and she also addressed the virtual aspect or telehealth of her practice She says she does virtual telehealth because it comes between Seeing the practitioner or not seeing them. She'd of course much rather see them at all even if it's through a computer screen We talked about this yesterday in our coverage of that so you can absolutely do in-person appointments if it's necessary But part of this calculus is really the patient's choice as well So when she was handed the care of Lindsay Clancy she did rely on previous information that Lindsay had disclosed While also adding on her own assessment She knew that Lindsay had taken or been prescribed Zoloft out of Ann and Benadryl She was taking those at the time that she saw nurse Jalata She also knew about Lindsay's trip to the south shore emergency room and she did have those medical records and She also knew about Lindsay getting chrasidone and that she had sleep issues and she had communicated of course with nurse Paul And so she knew that nurse Paul had prescribed pro-zac and Then Lindsay had gone off the pro-zac now if you remember the care was handed off at the end of November So she first saw Lindsay on November 29th and Lindsay had been on remeron for four nights Now Lindsay said she would fall asleep for just a couple hours She'd wake up and then need something else to get back to sleep so she would take an out of Ann and then fall back to sleep She said the remeron had a calming effect and it also affects your serotonin She said that that's a good choice for someone with anxiety depression and insomnia all things that Lindsay was reporting she also noted that Lindsay told her she had lost weight recently to her knowledge Lindsay had not done any psychotherapy. So this is all upon her receiving the care of Lindsay And it's just so interesting what Lindsay told people in what she did and she obviously came across this very forthright and truthful and she's really trying to get care but by this point unless I'm making this up She had had some psychotherapy when she was with toughs. She had met with that one lady I think twice at this point now not a lot but a little bit But it doesn't seem like she communicated that necessarily with gelato just an initial Thought about gelato if you were watching this. I thought she came across as very competent and very knowledgeable She had like a very soothing manner You know like she just seemed like somebody who would be a good person to go to If you were needing to talk some about the your mental health issues and I honestly think that matters One criticism I saw a toughs is that she didn't seem warm and fuzzy enough You know, she just didn't seem as caring and Gelato came across as caring so didn't nurse Paul. I mean they both did and so and I actually think that helps with Their believability on the stand even if maybe it isn't that important the way she came off I thought it was very warm and the kind of person you wanted to trust and the kind of person You wanted to listen to I don't know if you've thought that or took that into account or not Okay, so now at this point now once again, you know Lindsey's still struggling She's still trying to find something that works and gelato Look, there's been a lot of at this point. I'm just gonna say misinformation I don't think it's a disinformation. I think people just including us if you go back and listen to our first few episodes Looked at this they looked at the medications that were prescribed and they said wow people just three medications This woman they know they weren't really trying to treat her they were just writing prescriptions and collecting the money and moving on Right, what it seems like was really happening is that Lindsey part of her anxiety was she was really anxious about medication and her anxiety about the medication seems to have made her believe it either wasn't working or was making things worse even when it seems just from sort of a drug Action perspective. I don't know what the word is their pharmacological perspective It's not even clear that really it could have been working at this point So many of these drugs took a lot longer to have an effect and she didn't want to wait and so She is often the one asking her doctors to take her off of various medication and try something else and the doctors and nurse practitioner Gelato said You know when you're working with a patient if they are really adamant about not wanting to take a medication that has to be something you can consider Because you're not going to be with them and if they don't want to take it they're not going to take it so she Nurse a lot of tries to say look. I know the rimmer on hasn't quite done it for you yet But it's only been four days and it takes time for it to work and you should give it time You should have some patients with this. I know you want immediate relief. Everybody does totally understandable But try working through that and she says maybe we can put you on a higher dose of Ambient to help you sleep. Maybe we can do delayed release ambient to help you sleep because remember insomnia is her big issue And she feels like a lot of these issues are coming from the medication not necessarily an underlying condition though There's something going on there too, but she feels like a lot of
a lot of this stuff is coming from the medication. And she tells her that she's concerned about benzodiappines and rebound anxiety, which is what Dr. Tufts had discussed with her. This is another interesting thing about Lindsay. You know, my wife was watching yesterday and she was talking about how one of the things about her and makes even more absurd calling her parents as she's a professional, she's a nurse. She understands all this and can you imagine if you're a professional and the psychiatrist is like, let's talk to your parents about this. Like how insulting that would be. And she is and so she takes in this information and she's very knowledgeable about it and she's giving it back to nurse Shalada, which probably also causes a little bit of false security in nurse Shalada, thinking this is not your typical patient. Now she will tell you she didn't treat her any differently, but I doubt that's actually true. She also, once again, has anxiety about becoming physically dependent on Adavane. And this goes back to the anxiety thing. We talked about this with depression. One of the things about depression is you feel depressed so you don't do anything and then you mad at yourself or not do anything and it makes you even more depressed. About the anxiety has a similar thing. You're anxious about the drugs you're taking and it makes you not wanna take the drugs that might help with anxiety and so you become even more anxious and it seems like that's happening with Lindsay. She suggests how drugs is seen. Now she didn't know that Lindsay had been offered that before and Lindsay didn't share that, but Lindsay said, "No, I'm not gonna take that. "I want to stick with Adavane." 'Cause Adavane worked. There's the one thing that really worked for her. And look, nurse Shalada confirmed, Lindsay seemed competent. She seemed like she was not someone who needed a healthcare proxy. She wasn't someone we needed to talk to their parents or their husband about. We had anything like that. She came there with a purpose. The purpose was to get better and she seemed like she was eager to do that. They performed a mental status screening on November 29th. And one of the things they're looking for is Mania. And you're looking for distractability, extraneous stimuli, grandiosity, pressured speech, poor sleep, but still go, go, go, even though you're not sleeping. So she had poor sleep. And the question is, "Would she still be go, go, go?" And we're gonna see some of that later. Stream activity projects with no decompression time and she also looked for psychosis and she said, "Look, psychosis can be subtle, "but it's something like responding to stimuli "that are clearly just in your head, "a delusional thought process, "paranoia, auditory, or visual hallucinations, "lensied to nod, having any such symptoms "and she did not display them either." 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For example, Lindsay understood why she was there, why she was there talking to Nurse Gelata. Nurse Gelata also did the generalize in Edinburgh scale. Remember the Edinburgh scale, how we were saying, it was all performative, that the defense kept harping on Dr. Tufts for not performing it. Well, someone else did perform it. And guess what, she was a 17. So that's about moderate to severe postpartum depression. Again, these are just screening tests are not diagnostic. And as for a screener for generalizing anxiety, she scored a 14, which puts her moderate to severe anxiety. She said this was a 30 minute telehealth visit. And during that time, the two of them came up with a plan of care, which was to continue the remoron and only use the adivan as needed. And Nurse Gelata noted that these are all stuff that Lindsay was already prescribed. So she wasn't prescribing her new medication at this point. She did encourage Lindsay to stick with that remoron. Like Brett said, it takes a little while for it to take effect. So stick with it for now, it only been four days. And she encouraged Lindsay to reach out to her on my chart, the online messaging system. And she also suggested that the two of them meet every week, which was fairly typical of a patient in her position. So that was on November 29th. And this begins a very thorough back and forth between her and Lindsay. I mean, she's talking her over my chart all the time. November 30th, Lindsay messages to ask if it would be safe to stop taking remoron. Now remember, just the day before, they'd had this whole conversation about how to take some time and stick with it, but she didn't want to do that. So obviously she asked Lindsay why. And she talked about how like she'd been on several short courses of medication. Like I said, this wasn't necessarily something these doctors were happy about, that she was all in all these short courses of medication. And it takes time for medication to work. But Lindsay thought that it was making her depression worse. So Jolada suggests perhaps going back to ProZac, given that she had taken it for a year in nursing school with few symptoms. And she's hoping by sort of agreeing with her on the remoron to establish a good relationship with Lindsay and get her to a point where she will listen to her about what she should take. Now she knew she had tried an SSRI before and had worked out that well, but ProZac had worked so well before she thought, maybe this is something we could do. And she suggested pairing Cerequel with ProZac to help her sleep. Now it was not Cerequel. It was not prescribed as an anti-psychotic. He may recall, smartly, the defensive turn and keep referring to it as an anti-psychotic, because once to say, it was easy, as I go as it should. And anti-psychotic, in this case, it was for sleep. And honestly, Cerequel sort of like fallen down the line here. It's the third line option after treasidone and remoron have failed. So the overall recommendation is, why don't we try and stick with a remoron for 10 days? We can also go to ProZac in Cerequel and you can pair ProZac with remoron. Now this would also help her to get off an adavan, which is something she had indicated she wanted to do, 'cause she was worried about addiction, which is gonna come up again later. Now, Nurse Dolana also noticed something subtle, which was that she was connecting her symptoms with a medication and not the underlying problem. And so she said, hey, why don't you track your moods? Track your moods when they go up and down, how that connects to when you took the medication will compare it to the half-lives. And maybe we can figure out, is it the medication or is it the underlying issue? And so she gave her a couple trackers that she could use. All day, they had back and forth about this. And she asked her if she had any suicidal symptoms. She said she did not have any suicidal symptoms. She was just feeling hopeless and unmotivated. And she told her she had printed out the mood chart. She also had her nurse call Lindsay and Lindsay agreed that she was going to pick up the Sarah Quail. - So the very next day, December 1st at 1220, Lindsay messages through my chart. It says, don't like the way I feel on Remarorn. Started having intrusive thoughts, wanted to get off of it and go to Prozac and back to Adevant and Benadryl. And then she sent a detailed message with symptoms of postpartum depression and anxiety. This is really interesting because we obviously,
this is like a panicked type message. What does she know and what has she been taking out of Ann and Benadrill, right? That's what she was taking when she first met with both Nurse Paul and then when Nurse Paul transferred her care within the week to Nurse Gelata. These were things that she was comfortable with and seems that she does have a lot of anxiety about the side effects of other drugs, but she was comfortable for whatever reason with specifically out of Ann. - And it's interesting to me that she keeps coming back to Ann and Benadrill because she's so worried about drugs. But these are the ones that she's attracted to and could be just as they were. - Which are known for being very addictive. Which is really interesting. I mean, maybe it's just like the devil you know, but like even as a lay person, you know that you're not supposed to take Benadrill all the time. It is over the counter, but like, you know, we all joke, you know, like kids aren't going to sleep given Benadrill, like it's a joke because you're not supposed to use it as a sleep aid, right? Like that's kind of common knowledge, even if you don't have a medical degree. So it's really interesting that she falls back on it whereas like out of Ann, of all her prescription drugs, from what I've heard in terms of all of these medical practitioners telling me, out of Ann of all the prescriptions, is the one that you're supposed to take the least amount of time and use only in like emergency situations to get you off that ledge in the midst of a panic attack? It is the one of all the prescriptions you're not supposed to take long term. - And what's interesting is she knows that and we're going to say that later on. I think it's fascinating. And Jolada, and I think this goes to Jolada's competence. She is not just going with what Lindsay says. Lindsay's talking about drugs and she's like, hey, let's talk about postpartum depression and anxiety. Like, look at all these symptoms that they fit you and I think that shows that she really was listening and trying. - And this makes sense, right? Nurse Jolada says she's dealt with hundreds of women who have suffered from postpartum depression and anxiety. So she sends all of these detailed symptoms of what postpartum depression and anxiety looks like through my chart, too, Lindsay. Because she said she wanted to familiarize Lindsay with the symptoms, so that it might trigger something in her mind and say, wait a second, I have that. So that she could report it if it ever arose. She was trying to educate Lindsay because she recognized that this could be postpartum depression or anxiety and she wanted to make sure Lindsay properly reported it back because what have we been saying about psychiatrists? A lot of it still depends on what the patient is reporting to the doctor. Then she gave Lindsay information about obsessions and compulsions and she asked if Sarah Qual helped at all. Now, again, she reiterated to Lindsay that she wanted her to stick with the remoron. Again, this is very interesting and not something that the medical charts themselves tell us. When we first, whether it's in the civil lawsuit or we heard the list of 13 plus medications she's gotten and how she starts and stops, it sounds like potential medical malpractice, right? Sounds like this didn't work. Switch to the next one. You're about facing 180 degree turn every which way. But here we have Nurse Gelata saying repeatedly to her over the course of multiple days in the face of her saying, I don't want to take remoron. Stick with it. Stick with it. It hasn't been long enough. So then Lindsay sends another message at 236 and she says, panic last night and it took out of Ann and Benadryl. Very interesting. Again, when she panics, this is what she turns back to, what she knows, which are also the addicted drugs. But she said that she would stick with the plan that Nurse Gelata laid out going forward. And she said, I'm sorry, it's a scary stressful time for me. She said starting new meds is scary for me. And honestly, it's almost like Lindsay's fears eventually manifested themselves. She was so obsessed with not being overwhelmed my medication that she ends up with 13 prescriptions, right? That's like what she fears is what is actually actualized from her own anxiety. Nurse Gelata said, Lindsay is very receptive to taking information and she's not afraid to ask questions, which I think we're seeing with all this back and forth. And the fact that her practitioners don't seem like they're just reading a chart, they really seem like they know her. So then December 2nd, next day, we get more messages from Lindsay. She took the remoron and the seroquel and she woke up with intrusive thoughts. At that point, she took the out of Ann and she was all good. So at this point, now Lindsay is concerned that she's addicted to out of Ann, which I don't know, it kind of feels like maybe a legitimate concern. But apparently, at this point, probably not. And she would like to speak with the substance abuse clinic. Now, Nurse Gelata is credentialed in substance abuse. So she was actually able to treat Lindsay for this as well. And she responded to her and she said she understood her concern. And she said, look, benzodiazepine tolerance and addiction is absolutely a problem. And we can pull back slowly from that. And she suggested a lesser seroquel dose, which might be causing some of those intrusive thoughts. And she told her, look, really think the intrusive thoughts are caused by a postpartum depression. And that's nothing to be embarrassed by. It's something a lot of people suffer from. And this is the approach Nurse Gelata is taking. Can we just say really quick? This is like day three of treating her. And she's already picked up on something that took us about 11 days to get to, which is that it seems Lindsay is addicted to out of Ann. So like brava, Nurse Gelata, three days. And she is dedicated to figuring out what's happening with her. And she's calling it as she sees it. Two Lindsay. So Lindsay can't even claim that she didn't know these things. Now, Nurse Gelata is going to make an interesting distinction between dependence on out of Ann, which I think she thought Lindsay was, and addiction to out of Ann. Generally, I think she was addicted to it, but she did think maybe she was becoming dependent on it. And Gelata's position on this was basically we can deal with the dependence, so we can like wean you off of it. But we need to stick to something. We need to have a plan. We need to figure this out. And Lindsay responded. And this was an interesting response. And one that I think got a lot of pickup, that she was willing to try anything, but she just kept coming back to that, maybe she was addicted to this out of Ann. And she'd only been taking it for 2.5 weeks. And she said that she felt like she was not being heard about the possibility that she had some sort of addiction. And she felt like they were throwing meds at her problem, which I don't know. I mean, it's sort of an ironic thing for her to be saying, when it seems like the doctors are not trying to throw meds at the problem, but Lindsay keeps coming back and saying I don't like the meds that you're giving me, can you give me different meds? And instead I used the meds you told me to stop. Right, I mean, remember, Tufts was wanting her to actually move off the at-a-van, to slowly move off the at-a-van for this very reason. But she then changed his providers, and now she's back to using it again. And she said at this point, she wasn't really having intrusive thoughts. She just felt numb. She just felt like she couldn't feel anything. So this is the situation that Gelata's facing. She thinks there's a dependence issue here, but not an addiction issue, but she doesn't really know how to handle Lindsay, I think. And you're gonna see, she tries to work through this, but it doesn't ever really get to a good place. - And I do wonder if, I know we're about to talk about Nurse Gelata distinguishing dependence versus addiction to At-a-van, but I do kind of wonder if her initial thought was there was addiction, 'cause she says that, she's like, I'm afraid you're getting addicted, but then there's all this pushback from Lindsay, where it's like, I'm not addicted. Am I addicted? This is your fault. There's a lot of anxiety about the addiction, specifically coming from Lindsay, that I wonder in some ways of Nurse Gelata is softening it, just so Lindsay can hear it. So Gelata says she does not believe that there's an addiction issue, even though she said there might be, previously. And she responded to Lindsay to make clear the difference between dependence and addiction. She said, addiction, that's a real concern, but taking it for two and a half weeks to address anxiety, that's not concerning. She explained in her response that the subtle distinctions between dependence and addiction. So she recommended to Lindsay not taking the benzos every night and agreed not to refill Adivan. Now she was concerned about Lindsay saying she wasn't being heard. And she wanted to reassure Lindsay, and if she didn't want to take the Adivan, they could make a change. So Lindsay responded that she'd taken a bunch of drugs, but none of them had worked except Adivan. Feels like a bit of a ping pong here. She was like kind of yelling it, Nurse Gelata, that she's addicted to Adivan. And so then Nurse Gelata responds like, okay, if you think you're addicted, let's move on with it. She's like, wait, I've tried everything. All that works is Adivan. So Lindsay agreed to take the Bremeron. And remember how like how tumultuous this path has been? She's like, Ben encouraged to take Bremeron for a week now and keeps saying she doesn't want to. And then Panix takes the Adivan and Benadrill instead. And so she says, okay, no, no. I agreed to take the Bremeron and the Sarah Quill with just the Adivan as a backup. And she said that she was feeling numb and like she was going to die and that nobody cares. Now, this is obviously not a good message to get. So Nurse Gelata reads this message and responds that what Lindsay is describing sounds like depression and the numbness and she needed 24 hour emergency service providers. This was, she needs to admit herself somewhere. Now yet again, Nurse Gelata says, I did not see any suicidal ideation, but she wanted Lindsay to have the resources if things worsened because she was clearly not in a good place. At 1141, Lindsay messaged Gelata. I have support and my parents are here. As for side effects, never felt anything like this before. Asked if she could give Nurse Gelata a call. And this time when they spoke, Nurse Gelata asked if she would stick with the plan.
Lindsay responded that I think this is really a big point here, where Jalata sees that she's trying everything she can. She deals with hundreds of postpartum depression and anxiety patients and she sees kind of where this is headed and recommends 24 hour emergency care and Lizzie's responses. Nope, got support. I'm good. Don't need it. As opposed to kind of addressing what Jalata is seeing. So yet again, Jalata reinforces that all the things she's seeing from Lindsay and everything she's expressing, these are really common signs of depression. They're not side effects as Lindsay thinks that they are. So the things that they're describing Lindsay is like side effects, side effects, you're over-medicating me and Jalata says, look, what you're saying actually is classic depression. And she shares passages from a book on postpartum depression to Lindsay and assured her, like, this is treatable, things would get better. This is a very real treatable illness. Then she sent another message confirming that she was going to take 15 milligrams of Remarorn, 10 milligrams of Prozac, and 50 milligrams of Cerequil. And every other day, only on the out of van unless she needed it to sleep. Of course, getting Lindsay to sleep was the primary concern because she noted that sleep was her main issue. Now, the two of them message back and forth all throughout the rest of that day. So they are in constant contact. And Jalata says, this is actually really common. You need to try different plans in order to find the right one. And she says, you know, that's why at her clinic postpartum is actually technically defined as two years. Even though classically postpartum is one year, she says they treat women as postpartum for two years because it takes a really long time to find the right plan to treat women. And so they didn't want to kick people out at, you know, 12 month mark when they're technically out of the definition of postpartum, but very much maybe within the treatment time period. Okay. So now we're to December 5th. Lindsay reports that she didn't take out a van. So that was good. And she slept for about four hours, which isn't great, but it's better than not sleeping at all. And it's closer to something normal, but she said when she woke up, she had intrusive thoughts all day and felt deeply depressed. So what did she do? She took out a van. And she was all good. And a van is definitely her crutch. And you know, she keeps coming back to this. The rimmer on is causing these feelings. At some point, I start to wonder, she'll say, hey, I don't really want to take this drug. A doctor will say, you really need to give it time. And then it's almost like miraculously, she has horrific symptoms the next day. And the doctor is forced to take her off of it. We saw that earlier when she was supposed to step up on one of the SSRI, she was on. And she claimed she did and had the worst day ever, but when you look at the pills, she'd only taken seven days of pills, not nine, which is what you should have seen if she'd actually taken it. I think that's the only hard evidence we have is something like this, but it's awfully coincidental that we keep seeing it every time she wants to change drugs, suddenly she has these horrific symptoms. And we need to do this. So on December 6th, Jolada's like, why don't you come in? So Jolada is thinking, I guess, like, Reddington thinks, which is at some point, I'm going to need to see you. Let's have an in person visit. And when you know it, Patrick came with her. That was not something that Jolada knew was going to happen. It wasn't something that she asked for. She had not felt the need to speak to family at this point. And we're going to say, well, maybe it's not necessarily the best thing to have your husband with you when you have something like this. But they do the Edinburgh screen again. It's consistent with the last time moderate to severe this draws a defense objection. The objection is, that's not right, not actually an objection, but that was how Reddington got across to the jury. That wasn't actually correct. He'll dress us on cross as well, because it actually did go up from 17 to 21. Now notice nothing different about her speech and language. She was anxious, but her thought process was linear. She was still a goal directed. There were no signs of psychosis, no signs of mania, no obsessive thoughts or compulsive behaviors. But her sleep hadn't really improved. She was having a few hours at night, and she reported concerns was zoloft. And she mentioned that when she took zoloft, she didn't sleep for 48 hours and wasn't tired. And when I heard this, I was like, wait a second, that sounds like mania. And apparently, I'm on my way to my degree because that was exactly what Jolana thought, too. She thought this could be a sign of underlying bipolar disorder. That's exactly one of the things you look for. This was the first time, by the way, that we actually got some medical information about bipolar and how Lindsay might have had it, and I guess would still have it. And that's that activating response to zoloft. It is something you look for and it's very unusual to have that reaction. When you look at that and you combine it with her other problems with medication that they were giving her, that could be a sign of bipolar, which I didn't know until this trial. I didn't realize that bipolar not only doesn't react well to some of these medications, but they have like a negative impact. That's a difficult place psychiatry to be. Now in the other hand, she didn't really have any history of bipolar. Her screens were negative for bipolar. She had three symptoms of bipolar, but when you do the screen, you're supposed to get up to seven at least to even have like a concern about bipolar, and she didn't reach those. And the three that she had all happened at the same time, which is also not indicative of bipolar. You're really looking for more of a spectrum of symptoms at various times to confirm bipolar, but still it's a concern that Jolana has. So this is kind of a big thing to discuss, right? Like if you're suspecting possible bipolar disorder, so Jolana does it in a delicate manner. She brooches the topic of bipolar, potential bipolar underlying issue, and she explains kind of why she thinks this. And Patrick responds, "My wife is not bipolar." I don't know, he knows that. Yeah. I agree that you may not want your wife to be bipolar, but I don't know that he would necessarily know that. And once again, hopefully this is a lesson for Rennington about why you don't necessarily want someone else in the room when you're trying to describe your symptoms and have an honest conversation with your doctor, because it's not always a good thing. And we've been very defensive of Patrick and protective of him from a lot of criticism, but to me, this is a situation where it's the difference between victim blaming and victimology, and I actually think this is a really interesting point and it's worth discussing for a little bit. So Patrick, he has this reaction and it's sort of a window into what is going on in their family. We have her story through the psychologist. We have what he testified to, but other than that, we don't really know. This was something that was a problem for both of them. He's trying to be supportive. He's going with her to this meeting. He's going to appear on various things. He obviously, people are like, "He should have known." Well, no one knew. One of the doctors in her life knew how bad this was, he obviously didn't either. But this moment, I think, is telling because it speaks to maybe why she's having the response she has. There's almost a feeling, and I don't want to read too much into this, but there's almost a feeling of there's nothing wrong with you. It's the drugs. You had a very minor issue. They put you on a bunch of drugs, now you have a bunch of issues, and it's the drugs that's not anything underlying. It's certainly not bipolar, and that mindset was one that Lindsay seemed to share. She never wanted to accept this could be an underlying psychological issue. She just wanted to blame the drugs, and it seems like Patrick is very much in the same place. Look, I can sympathize in that I would put bipolar disorder in the category that would be a scary diagnosis to receive for someone you love or for yourself. It's almost like a protecting mechanism. My wife doesn't have that, but that doesn't really necessarily help. Think about, "Okay, just because the only time my husband ever comes with me to any medical appointment would be like when I'm pregnant." That's my only experience of it because he doesn't come to my, I don't know, cholesterol checkup or whatever. That's like silently in the corner because that's what I did. And he doesn't come to all of them. He comes to like one, and then he's like, "And then I excuse him, I'm like please don't come again." This is so awkward, but I think this is the standard of care because I've now had babies in a bunch of cities, and it's the same wherever I am, whether it's in Washington, D.C. or Alabama, is even if my husband is there, and they ask me like, "Is it okay for him to be in here?" Of course, he's responsible for this. They always ask him to leave when they ask me questions about things like abuse, right? Because guess what's really hard to answer, honestly, if someone is sitting next to me. They also ask me questions about my mental health and how I'm feeling, and if I have any intrusive thoughts without him there. Not necessarily because he's the cause of them, but because it's really hard to answer those questions in front of anybody, much less the person who you share a family with and share a house with. And I think it's really interesting, and it goes right to what you're saying. Patrick says this, Lindsay didn't say a word. Very, very true. She doesn't say what he said, she doesn't agree, she sits there silently. That's what Nurse Jolotta says. Now.
Patrick wasn't really particularly helpful in this whole thing. There's Jolada said, "Look, he didn't provide any information that would change her diagnosis about Lindsay." But he did the thing that Dr. Tufts was, you know, hammered for not speaking to Pat enough, I guess. Well, Jolada did speak to Pat. He came, in fact. And if anything, I would say probably impeded any sort of progress with respect to exploring whether there were other underlying issues. But at this meeting, they continued to discuss tapering Lindsay's benzodiazepines, which Jolada has already identified as an issue. And they did an assessment on her about possible withdrawals from benzodiazepines. And Jolada reported that Lindsay had no symptoms and she scored a one on the assessment, which is interesting because this isn't a self-reported. Yeah. That was the thing I didn't understand about this because she's pretty clearly taking benzodiazepines. I don't know why she would have withdrawal symptoms at this point. But also, I think she did report withdrawals. That's why she would go back and take that van. Well, she was the rebound thing. I don't know if that's withdrawal syndrome or not. I agree. It seems like she's not taking it to even know if she's withdrawing, but when she would try to go off of it for even hours at a time, it seemed like she was having withdrawal. So the one is a little confusing, to be totally honest. I don't know that it tells us that much. Now, Jolada recommended valium to help taper off those benzos and because she said there's no real rebound anxiety with valium. Now, Lindsay did not want to do the seroquile. Lindsay and Pat said that pro-zac was their preference, which I think is so interesting because like, I don't know if my husband has a preference in the meds I take after I have a baby, for example. Again, that's the only time I'm usually like on prescription medication. And this is just very interesting because you see kind of the dialogue they're having. Absolutely. I think you should be talking about your health with trusted people in your life. But we're seeing how this might actually impede rather than help along an outsider's perspective who's professionally trained in helping move along her care here when Patrick is in the room. Now, Jolada said, okay, fine. If you prefer pro-zac, I'm okay with that. Now, typically, if Lindsay did have bipolar SSRIs would be contraindicated, but since she wasn't sure she had bipolar and Patrick diagnosed her with no bipolar disorder, she was okay with the pro-zac. They've never prescribed it, but they want to use a mood stabilizer. So they talked about it, but it wasn't ultimately prescribed. So they went along with Lindsay's request and they decided, you know what? Let's discontinue the seroquiles since you're out. No, adamantly against it, and we'll go back on the pro-zac as you want to do. Now, that doesn't end up working out because on December 7th, she sends a message in the morning that said, last night, did I go well at all? She took a volume in melatonin. She slapped from nine to one. I mean, look, that's four hours. That's not awful. You've gone about it nine to one. In some of this, they do have an eighth month old child. I don't know. Like, the sleep issues, obviously they add up. And if you haven't been sleeping at all and then you get four hours of sleep, that's not going to help that much. But to a certain extent, it's almost like she's a little overstating the sleeping problems given her situation in life. And I'm just not entirely sure how much more sleep you would expect because I would think eight-month-old baby. Say, you put the baby down at eight thirty. You go to bed at nine. Probably going to bed by one. You know, at that age, the baby is waking up in the middle of the night. And maybe that's what happened because she then takes a bit of drill at two. So there's like an hour-long period you could imagine that's when she's dealing with the baby. But at this point, she only sleeps for another hour. And so she wants to know what to do. She says, I need help. So Jolada responds. She says, look, if we're in this circumstance, the next step would actually be to try higher dose of seraquel, when she wants to get off the seraquel. You know, from 75 up to 100. And she asked Lindsay, if after not sleeping well, she had any subsequent loss of energy or fatigue because Jolada is still thinking about bipolar. Still trying to figure out whether she has it, regardless of what Patrick may say. Thanks, maybe this could be part of a manic episode. And Lindsay responds that she didn't feel tired at all. So no, no. There's another possibility for bipolar. And once again, you have Jolada fighting her on this. She doesn't want to believe she has bipolar. I think Jolada feels like she's got to have a lot of evidence to come back with this as bipolar. And in any event, she asks for possible alternatives to address the issue. And Jolada says, look, we could drop the volume. We can do a short taper to get off the benzodiappans. Now she's very concerned about an underlying bipolar issue. She sends her a list of symptoms of bipolar once again, because she wants her to self report to her. If she's having any of these, she needs to know. And she says, how about we titrate up on the Sarah quail, get to 400 Sarah quail over the next few nights and see if that helps drop the pros at concerned about bipolar. At this point, Rimmeron's already out the door. So we're going to stick with this plan. We're going to do Sarah quail. She needed another Sarah quail prescription. And this is another thing. One of the reasons you see so many of the prescriptions, it's not that Dr. Throwing meds at her. In this case, she had to give her like multiple prescriptions because she's slowly moving up. She's taking a certain amount and going higher right now. She only has a higher level of Sarah quail, so she needs a lower one so she can do this. She also, do a lot of suggests there's another drug for bipolar memory you should take. She doesn't want to do that. What's the state to the Sarah quail? So that's what we do. So on December 8, Lindsey reports that she slept from nine to five with the volume of the Sarah quail. That's good. She asked for a slower taper because she felt like she really needed the volume to sleep. Jalada suggested sticking to the taper since it has such a long half life. The next day on December 9, Lindsey took her last volume and now she was afraid she'd need to take out a van if she had any issues. So she, she's supposed to do that taper and now she's out of that volume, which she's depended on to sleep. Later that afternoon, Lindsey and Patrick called Jalada. They said that Lindsey's symptoms were too acute to taper and that she needed the volume. Jalada suggested women and infants inpatient in Rhode Island. And now in talking to her, now Jalada says she has suicidal ideation, but no plan. Remember what we learned earlier, there is a difference between having like thoughts of death or being dead versus having an intent in a plan to carry it out. So Jalada now agrees to continue Lindsey on the volume, but also to continue the titration up on Cerequile. Jalada believed this was possibly a mixed or hypo-manic state that Lindsey was now in. Lindsey was reporting sleeping better, so that's good so far. Guys it's summer, which means it's hot out, which usually means I want to wear less clothes, but the reality is I still need to wear shapewear and bras to feel supported. And I have to wear it all day when it's like a hundred degrees outside. Well that's why I love Honey Love. It is truly the most comfortable bra you will ever put on that you're never going to wear anything else. 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And she was supposed to, at this point, be up to 400 milligrams. That was the plan. Remember, we're going to move up to 400. She never got there. She'd only got to 200 and she'd stopped. And this is just another thing. Like, I don't know what the point all this is, the relevance of all this. I mean, I understand there's some point to trying to figure out what was wrong with Lindsay Clancy to try and determine whether or not she was insane when she killed her kids. But Nurse Delotta and Dr. Tufts, Nurse Paul, the various other people we're going to talk about, the people at McLean, they are not the reason this happened. They're just not. Lindsay had an issue, assuming she's insane when it happened, not mentally comfortable when it happened. She had some deep-seated issue that nobody was able to fix. One of the reasons they weren't able to fix it is because she would not do what she was asked to do. Now, that might be a symptom. She's a difficult, she's a difficult patient. She's incredibly difficult. Let's just call a spade a spade. It's become very clear over the past few days of testimony. And I'm not necessarily blaming her. It's like objectively true. She's a difficult patient. What do I mean by that? You can't talk sense into her. She brings her husband, who calls along with her and like demands volume when that is not what they're supposed to be doing. They tell her to get off out of hand. She won't get off out of hand. She says all my problem is just sleep. Clearly there are lots of other problems. And when someone tries to tell her a diagnosis that is different than what she wants it to be, she shuts it down repeatedly. That's a difficult client. I clearly have difficult clients as well, a difficult patient. And look, I mean, some of this may be a symptom of her underlying issue. And this is probably something that I just do with all the time. But I like it's worth noting that Lindsay got way more care than the average person who has mental health issues. I mean, let's just be right. She's a lot of cared. A whole lot. I don't know. I have had great doctors in my life. None have messaged me that many times in a day back and forth. None of them would respond to me. None of them will respond on a weekend. And if they told me to take remron and I just didn't, I'm pretty sure my doctor would just be like, well, then you figured out. Rather than working with her non-stop on this. And a lot of it. And I know this that she's getting more care because so many of you have emailed and been like, wow, I would never get back in the care. I've got that much attention. Like, people would barely respond to me, which is a bad thing. You know, when we talk about the failures of the system, there are failures of the system. And I'm not sure those actually applied to Lindsay Clancy. I'm not sure that the system failed her. Now, obviously what happened at the end was a tragedy. But that doesn't mean that the effort that went into helping her was also somehow deficient. And I asked about this point during her testimony on Twitter. I was like, what more was she supposed to do? And the number of people who were like, she should have section 12 to her. It's like, wait a second. You honestly think that the solution here is when a woman comes in with obvious symptoms, a postpartum depression, and she's a little bit difficult. And she has some suicidal ideation that you should forcibly commit her and take her kids away from her. Like pretty sure, a lot of women would just be like, came to a bed now. What talk about handmade tale? You know, a hundred years ago, women got sent off for hysteria all the time. And lobotomies all the time. That is not a step in the right direction, guys. Like, it's just possible that these people were doing a really good job. And the problem she had was either so deep seated or was so self-destructive that it prevented her from getting help. And I don't understand what has to be these doctors are terrible. I don't understand why that just has to be the case. If you think, for instance, Lindsey Clancy is not guilty. And I don't think we have to have that dichotomy. And I think we can believe the doctors did a great job and still think she's not guilty at the end of the day. Or think she is guilty. I mean, it doesn't necessarily lead one way or the other. But just to me, as I listen today, just this story of a woman failed by the system just was shattered. It just isn't true. Maybe it's just not possible for the system to help someone like her because she got so much attention and effort from these people who seemed like they really cared. And so we're at this point. And I'm afraid a lot of people who are watching this are seeing these practitioners. And thinking this is the system failing. And I mean, it is unfortunately a travesty for the medical mental health care profession if that is the case. And I'll just say, you know, once again, people kept saying they shouldn't even have a trial here. They absolutely should have for lots of reasons. I didn't realize this was one of the reasons. But it was like, I would just say we all have preconceived notions when we come into something like this. Trial is a great opportunity to learn some facts. Let your thoughts change based on what you see. My thoughts have changed based on what I've seen as far as the kind of care she got. So at this point, the doctors like look, that could be orthostatic, tachycardia, which means when you stand up, you can get a little fake. You can have some heart palpitations could be that. And no big deal. It's been on not an issue. Don't worry about it. She also had Lindsey speak to her nurse. And at this point, Lindsey says, wants to get off medication altogether. It doesn't want to take any more medication. And this was something Jolada was really concerned about because there were risks. And she wanted her to know the risks. She wanted her to know like, look, maybe we can get you to a baseline. But Jolada is convinced. This is not the result of medication. You are suffering from severe symptoms of postpartum depression. You need to address those. Doesn't have to all be medication. You should be doing some sort of therapy. Maybe you should even consider a hospitalization program. Third time, by the way, that she suggested hospitalizations in like a week. Lindsey messages back. She says that she likes the way value and circle help her sleep. But she doesn't like how she feels the rest of the day. Jolada says, let's stick to the level. Stay at 200. Don't go to 400. Maybe we can accumulate some good nights of sleep. And that will help you over all. Jolada wants to have an in-person visit with her. And Lindsey says, I would rather have a telehealth. I'd rather talk to you through the television is what she says. And Jolada says, look, I would rather have met with her in person because she's having these issues. But better to meet with her virtually than not at all. So she agrees to do the next meeting virtually. So the next day they meet again virtually. And Lindsey is sleeping seven to nine hours at this point. And she is taking the volume of sericole. She still reports feeling numb and depressed. She does not appear to have or indicate to have any sort of suicidal ideation at this time. And no indication of homicidal thoughts. The plan at this point was for Lindsey to continue the sericole at 200 milligrams and the volume at two milligrams. Jolada sent some more ideas and resources for Lindsey to feel better related to this whole postpartum depression. She said that therapy could help with feelings. Remember, who else also suggested this, Dr. Tufts. And she can't force her to do talk therapy. She only went twice, right? But here we have another practitioner who seems to see Lindsey very clearly suggesting yet again, there are other things to help you deal with the real issue, the postpartum depression. On December 15th, she gets a telephone call with Lindsey in Patrick. Now they report that this was the worst day so far for Lindsey. She had intrusive thoughts, but no plans of suicide. And they're considering going to the emergency center and maybe even to McLean. They want to be assessed for a higher level of care. And they told them that their local emergency departments did not have the level of care that Lindsey would need. So they would go to mass general hospital if they needed to go at all. Now, mass general is connected to McLean. So this is also again, I mean, this is their way of saying basically, Jolada, you're not giving me high enough level of care. And the emergency room locally not even high enough level of care. So we're going to go to the top. So they do go to the ER, which I think Jolada was perfectly fine with.
with, it seems like they went to the ER at Mass General, Mass General suggested McClain, and at this point, they turned them down because later on, they're gonna ask whether or not they can have the bed that was available December 15th. So it seems like there was some discussion about this, but they decided they didn't want to do McClain. So they just went to the ER. At this point, Lindsay's, I'm not gonna call this Dr. Shopping 'cause I don't think it's Dr. Shopping, but Lindsay refuses to stick to one provider. So she's back with Dr. Tufts. She's talking to Dr. Tufts and Dr. Tufts. So remember, she was like, look, what an ideal that she's saying to other people, but I'm not gonna just not talk to her, just 'cause she wants to talk. She's having these issues. And she had suggested Lim McDowell. And so Lindsay calls or messages to Lata, and wants to know her opinion. And Jalata says, yeah, it works great for mood stabilization and depression. If you're gonna do it, do a slow titration. This one you need to work into, it has some side effects. It can cause some skin changes and some other issues. So you really need to watch it. So at this point, she is on Lamotrogene, Valium, and Cerequile. And the Dr. Asker, she was in contact with women in infants and apparently she was not. So in December 19th, she had an appointment with Latisha Duke. So she was a therapist. I assume Latisha Duke's is going to testify soon. And she told Jalata that she was starting women in infants the next day. And I think it was supposed to be sort of a program she was gonna do for a while. And Jalata at this point says, that's great. I'm about to go on vacation. So let's set an appointment for when I get back. You'll be at women in infants. Everything will be great. And the one issue that Lindsay has, is she's concerned she's gonna run out of Valium. She's trying to take it every other night. And Jalata says, I will refill the Valium to get you to the next appointment with me. That's what we're gonna do. - To a lot of sounds like she needs a vacation. I couldn't, so I'm exhausted. So the next day on December 20th, Lindsay's discharged from women in infants. They recommended that she find help getting off the Cerequile. They told her that they wanted her to tape her off of it. Now she wasn't opposed to tape ring, but she was concerned that had she been discharged, especially if she was going off this medication. So she's expressing this anxiety about the medication yet again. She needed something, whether therapy, group support, or medication. Jalata was concerned about her tapering, 'cause clearly the tapering that they've been trying for like three weeks now hasn't worked. And so she knew that Lindsay needed more support if she was going to tape her. So Jalata suggested Lindsay speak with another psychiatrist so someone could be there for her during the taper while Jalata is on vacation. Now, Lindsay responded to her at 347. Said women in infants suggested McLean said that she would follow up with a psychiatrist to have appointments. And she wanted another prescription for Cerequile on lower doses since she only had 300 milligrams at the time. Now Jalata had the nurse call to go over the dangers of tapering and to remind her that she wouldn't be there 'cause she was going on vacation and that this may not be the best time for her to taper. Now she sent her a plan to taper. It also sent her a prescription for tapering off Cerequile down from 300 milligrams. - And this women in infants thing is really interesting because as we're gonna learn later, you have Jalata who really believes their underlying disorder or the cause for symptoms. Women in infants is going to say they don't want to admit her because her problems are related to medication. I am gonna go out on a limb and say that the reason women in infants said that was not because they did some sort of detailed hours-long psychological evaluation of Lindsay. But because when Lindsay went to women in infants, she told them, "I am having all of these issues because of medication." And women in infants said, "We don't do that. We don't do problems from medication. We do, you have some sort of other issue and we address that." That's my guess. I assume we're gonna see more of that later, but this comes up in cross that that was the reason women in infants would not admit her and the defense attorney attempts to use that see it's the medication. Well, once again, how do they know? How are they making these terminations? I think because that's what the client is also like to say is telling them. So in December 30th, Patrick calls and tells the nurse that they're going to put her in McLean. That is not exactly how this works. You can't just show up at McLean and say, "Hey, admit us. You have to go to the emergency department. He didn't want to do that because he didn't want to waste a day there. He wanted the bed that they had on the 15th, and he's basically told, "Look, the only option is to go to the emergency department at MGH and they will refer you over to McLean." So that's what they do. And this is the last contact the clinic has with Lindsay. Now, they still are reviewing her mass PMP, which records what medication she's getting because I don't know if she's gonna come back. So they're trying to keep up on that, but they're not meeting with her anymore and it is now Dr. Tuffs who's back in the picture and she is filling controlled prescriptions. As this wraps up on direct, she's asked about, Lindsay, if she always presented with clear thinking, she did 'cause she advocate for herself. She did. Did she have knowledge of her medications? She did. Did she ever indicate she had a plan to kill herself? No, did she ever indicate she had a plan to hurt her children or anyone else? She did not, and that's the way the direct wraps up. (upbeat music) Guys, if you know us, you know that we're always feeding children. And usually that means we're having to cook something. That's where our place comes in. Our place makes beautiful, high performance kitchenware designed to make home cooking easier, simpler, and more enjoyable. Everything is designed to be multifunctional. So you're not filling your kitchen with single use pans and appliances that only do one thing. And this is important to me with three little kids. Their cookware is made without forever chemicals and has been since day one. 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It's especially great for quick meals, reheating leftovers, crisping things up on nights when you don't wanna turn on the full oven. I did that tonight. We were out late, the kids were so hungry, everyone was dirty. I had maybe 10 minutes to prepare dinner before everything just melted down. So while the kids were still taking off their shoes, washing their hands, I started the wonder of in Pro with the air fryer I made, fries, fresh chicken, and vegetables in minutes. They were ready to eat quite literally in 10 minutes and everything tasted amazing, and it fed my entire family of six people. Upgrade your kitchen with our place today. Visit fromourplace.com/prosecute and use code prosecute for 10% off-site-wide. That's F-R-O-M-O-U-R-P-L-A-C-E. dot com slash P-R-O-S-E-C-U-T-E and use code prosecute for 10% off-site-wide. With a 100-day trial, you can try it completely risk-free. (upbeat music) Now, unlike Nurse Paul, the defense doesn't just sit down. They have a cross. Boy do they have a cross. Okay, so it starts with how many times did Lindsay meet with you? And you guys heard that extensive back and forth. Obviously, most of it was through my charts, extensive messaging. But Lindsay only met twice via telehealth with Nurse Jalada and once in person. Jalada did not know that Lindsay was also seen toughs in the same period. So he's doing the whole like, why didn't you seek the records from toughs, you know? She didn't know that she was seeing toughs. Like she had no idea. There was no reason she would even know who to request it from, right? These were also questions she could have asked Nurse Paul who may have had that information because Lindsay was referred to her by Lindsay's mother-in-law, but whatever. So for whatever's in, he left Nurse Paul alone, but he took his buyer out on Jalada. Now, Jalada said that she knew about the prescriptions that toughs had prescribed other than the hydroxazine, which is not a controlled substance, so that's not gonna show up on the PMP report. Reddington has his chart out and he goes through all the drugs. Now, there are some discrepancies with claim prescriptions she would have missed in January, which she says she did not write. So I'm not sure what's going on with this, except to basically try to make this all about medication rather than that she's a really difficult patient who didn't listen to anything that her providers told her. Now, I'm really curious about this. Like this was something he brought up and kind of fell away. The first thing I thought was Lindsay like hoarding prescriptions that she then filled in January after she stopped seeing Jalada. Now, I don't know. I'm just basing this on what he said. He's saying that prescriptions with her signature on them are getting filled in January and Jalada's like, well, I don't know anything about that. I didn't see her. So that's it.
- That was interesting. I don't know if we'll ever get any clarity on that, or if that's just him playing fast and loose with things, but that was certainly something that kind of piqued my interest, but I don't know what the story is behind that. - And then he does the other thing that is an old trope. He keeps asking her about what happened at women and infants. And Jolada says, "I don't know, I wasn't there." So I can't testify to that, because I wasn't treating her at women in infants. Reddington tries to make hay about Jolada not knowing about their diagnosis and says that they did not admit her, because they thought it was due to adverse drug effects, probably because they talked to her. And she and Pat said that rather than it being a diagnosis. And she says that women and infants never called her. So she didn't know about any of this. And there's a record saying they did and that she didn't call back. She says she absolutely would have called back if women and infants had called her. So they kind of go back and forth about that. Remember, she was also on vacation. So it's very possible that maybe they did call. Maybe they didn't get her. Maybe they got someone else. But she's saying, "No, I think we can tell by her my church messages and constant "interactual with Lindsay that she is a very involved provider." But she says, "I didn't know about Tufts. "I didn't know about women and infants. "I can't answer anything about that." Which by the way, according to Reddington, the amount of back and forth was not enough. The woman should have canceled her vacation. Like how dare you go on vacation when you have patients? At Christmas. How dare you? You should have been talking. It's like, really man, do you think anybody's gonna buy that? And this was, so we talked about yesterday. You know, there's the Burnham Returnum. You can do one of the two. Reddington did not know how to handle her. He really did. And if you watch it, you saw that. There were times where it was a complete jerk. He kept referring to her as like a very concerned, a very invested, you're very invested. As a very concerned, it's like I'm a investor, provider, whatever, just being a jerk like he was with Tufts. He did that some. But then he would like turn into Mr. grandfather when she was helpful for him and try and like be nice to her and get information about bipolar. And he could not figure out how to deal with her. Am I supposed to attack her and try and tear her down or am I supposed to get information out of her? And frankly, I think this is a problem with his approach. I understand that from a tell the story perspective everyone wants someone to blame. Honestly, you see that on TikTok. Why do people want to say Patrick did it? 'Cause they want to blame somebody for the death of three children. They want a villain. Everyone wants a villain. They don't want a woman with a broken mind who killed her kids and isn't criminally responsible. And that's just all there is and there's nothing else to say. No one wants that. It's so unsatisfactory. It's life, but it's not satisfactory. And it's not what we like. We like good black and white villains. So that's why they're doing that. Obviously he's not gonna do that 'cause he's not idiot. But he does want someone to blame. He painted Tufts as that person. He has that whole ridiculous like when she gave her that one drug, that one day that was what center of the edge thing he did. But he's trying to paint her as the villain. You want someone to blame? It's Dr. Tufts. And I get that. Even if it's not true, I get it. It makes sense. Give the jury something to hang on to. But not everybody has to be a villain. And maybe at some point one villain's enough. Start using these doctors who obviously did a good job to make your other point about her clearly having an issue that could not be addressed. And honestly, Jalata was the perfect person to do that with. Nurse Paul, he didn't do that with her, but he also didn't attack her. And that could have led into this. You know, she went here to get help and you tried all you could, but there's Tufts in the background. And you were out of the picture about January 1st and then Tufts is back doing all our stuff she's doing. And that would have been a better approach. But instead he was almost, and I don't mean this is any kind of pun, but almost gets a frantic in the way he did it. Like at one point he's attacking her and one point he's not. And it was just weird. And you saw that throughout his discussion with her. And one part where he's getting help from her was on, good moms have scary thoughts, which have been critical to the little defense. Let's speak critical of the prosecution. Using that book was just a, not a scare tactic. It was a gotcha tactic. Who look, this woman who killed her three kids has a book called Good Moms, I have scary thoughts. As he pointed out and as Jolada agreed, it's a book that they give to women that's about postpartum issues. And it's about working through those and explaining that just because you have them doesn't mean you're a bad mom. There's nothing weird about it at all. Then he gets into SSRIs and bipolar. And they talk about the mayor wanna gummy. He notes that the Edinburgh scale went from 23 on the 21st down to 17 by the 29th. He screwed this up, I don't know if he notices. He screwed this up. He thought it had gone way up. And he actually said she was decompressing. He got the date switched. It actually went down. Now, good defense attorney that he was and good lawyer that he is when you make a mistake in court. Yeah, like you didn't make a mistake. What are you talking about? I'm just exactly what I was saying. And he totally rolls into that. You know, oh, both of these scores are concerning, right? He does it on the fly. He was impressive, but he totally screwed it up. So just if you're watching, he screwed that up. So they didn't go through the November 29th of diagnosis. Postpartum anxiety with insomnia, the feeling nervous, anxious on edge nearly every day. Couldn't stop worrying and stressing about things nearly every day. Can't relax. Not looking forward to things. Can't see the good side. Goes through the depression aspects. Basically, he goes through the questionnaires where she's putting all the bad stuff in there so the jury can hear all the negative things that she's reporting to her doctors. Which is like cherry picking. 'Cause remember, she's talked about the whole care process. And I think we all agree. Lindsay was definitely suffering from something, right? It sounds like postpartum depression and maybe some other underlying mental health issues. So, but he is kind of pointing it out as he's supposed to do to show that there were all these concerning things and why did people do more? Because all these people should have done better, but she didn't have to do better apparently. Now, talking about bipolar. Jolada didn't know that Lindsay had run a 5K soon after Callan was born. And he asked, "Is this something that you would have considered?" Note that she was the only doctor to consider bipolar disorder at all. And that no one else had kind of come to this conclusion. Then they move on to talking about Patrick. He thought that her symptoms began when she started being medicated. I mean, I think it's clear, it's not true. She was on Prozac in nursing school. So, these issues seem to go way far back. Certainly at some point, her issues got worse. Absolutely, but he's trying to dig into the fact that, you know, Patrick thinks that it's the medication that's causing her problems. So, Lindsay sent a message on December 3rd about having horrible intrusive thoughts. And Jolada saw Lindsay again on December 6th. Reddington asked if Lindsay had called her. She noted that the adivan got rid of these intrusive thoughts. And she asked what they were. Those thoughts were about not wanting to be here. Now, Jolada was asked if Lindsay had any plans for suicide. But remember, she asked this and did this greeting every single time, and she said never described as having plans for suicide. And she had never described anything about hearing voices in all of these messages back and forth. She said that she had treated five people with postpartum psychosis. Some of them heard voices, but not all of them. And same with visual hallucinations. Some have them, some don't. Reddington asked Jolada to describe postpartum depression. He asked her if she ever said that they should meet in person, and she said she did. Not just once, but twice. But Lindsay was the one who changed the second one to a virtual telehealth visit. And remember what she said, better to meet with her virtually than not at all. Then they talk about Latisha Duke's meeting with Lindsay. And they talk about Lindsay's reported heart palpitations and how Lindsay had to go to the ER for anxiety symptoms. - Look, and a lot of this is so repetitive. And I don't understand where Reddington does it this way. He doesn't have to go over every single thing. He's not a fan of the get in and get out and version of cross, or the pick five points to make version of cross. I mean, he just goes through the whole thing again. And it's, I don't know, it's tiring and tedious. And look, he's been in there in this 50 years. You know, he's done more trials than years I've been alive, months that I've been alive, probably. But nevertheless, there's just, I don't know. I just feel like at times, less is more. And he doesn't seem to see that. So there's a note that Jalata suggested she try in patient care as early as December 5th, but Lindsay did not want to do that. They talk about her calling the Inspire Crisis Support Network. And this goes to the whole, she called the suicide hotline twice. And Reddington always puts it is, they turned her away. They didn't give her any help at all. And this just goes back to what these doctors are seeing. It is not that every doctor in suicide hotline and emergency department and specialized care center and Massachusetts and all of New England is incompetent and didn't understand what Lindsay Clancy was trying to tell them. It's that she never met the criteria for anything. So she calls the suicide hotline. And what's the first thing they ask? Do you have a plan? They keep coming back to this. I'm not a psychologist, but apparently, this is the big thing. It's one thing to have suicidal thoughts. It's another thing to have a plan. And when you have a plan, that's when everything springs into action. And that's when they start activating. And so when she calls them and she says, I don't have a plan, they basically talk through things whether they give her some resources, but then they let her go. They don't admit her to the hospital or anything like that. So at this point, she suggests this day program that she won.
her to do, but Lindsey doesn't want to do it. She knew the Patrick was concerned about medication. At this point, they did the Inberg test again. She was now up to a 21, which is severe sign supposed part of depression. And this is when Reddington goes in the whole vacation thing and how she shouldn't have gone on vacation, essentially, but she notes there's someone to cover. Lindsey has another psychiatrist that she's talking to, and she expected her to be at women and infants as well, even though that didn't work out. So her going on vacation is not somehow indicative of her incompetence. Also, must we blame everyone but the woman who strangled her three children to death. Yes, including the emergency, the suicide hotline. Yeah, everything to blame them too. So Reddington, you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. He now suggests, sun cross that having Patrick on the call and in person means that Lindsey's no longer advocating for herself. Oh, no, Derr. Yeah, remember when he berated Dr. Tufts on cross for like what seemed to be hours for her not calling either her parents or Patrick? Well, you can't win when you're treating with Lindsey because you can have Pat there or not there and you're a bad practitioner in the defenses eyes because again, the whole point is just to make everyone else the problem and not Lindsey. Which again, is his job. So I'm not, you know, that is actually what he's supposed to be doing. I think there's a way to do this without doing it in this way. That's I want to get you with that because I actually think it's a negative. I think it's become a negative. I think the blame everyone but Lindsey thing is become a negative. I think a much better way is blame Lindsey's broken brain. That is a much better way to do it because that's what's on trial. Yeah, that's a much better way to do it because I just I don't think gelada comes off as someone you should blame for the murder of these kids. I just don't think that does it all. No, I'm saying his mo is blame everyone but Lindsey. That's what he's doing. That is his tactic. I mean, Lord willing, there's a verdict at all. I'm more hopeful there's going to be a verdict rather than a hung jury now, but who knows mostly because I don't want this to be a hung jury and we have to go through this again. Honestly, for all of these witnesses, six, but what have you? You can't win with Reddington. You are truly damned if you do, damned if you don't, whether Patrick is there or not. So then they add nauseam talk again about her panic symptoms, her intrusive thoughts. There's so much repetition. I'm not really sure where he's getting at except that. Yeah, I agree. She had a lot of problems and she was even having intrusive suicidal thoughts. Now, this is one of several times throughout her course of treatment. On December 13, her Edinburgh depression scale was still at a 20. Remember, had been a 23 before, still at a 20, which is pretty high. And they talk about gelada wanting her to go to McLean at the beginning of the year and gelada says she does not have those records. And honestly, given the fact that gelada is no longer her treating practitioner, I'm not sure why she would have records from McLean. So that's the cross examination and the prosecution does her redirect and they focus on the fact that gelada treated her relatively short time. Despite her having a lot of conversations with her back for this scene, like a very long medical history, she talked to her provider longer in three weeks and I probably talked to most of my doctors in the entirety of my years with them. She treated her only from November 20th when she met her with Julie Paul and December 13th the last time she met with her. Lindsay did not offer to gelada that she should speak with Tufts and Tufts didn't refer her. So she had no idea that she was seeing Tufts, nor to even know to talk to Tufts about Lindsay. And look, we've been talking about her this whole time. All the things she did with Lindsay, all the conversations she had with her, barely even knew the woman. I mean, she's the amount of time she treated her was basically nothing. You know, I mean, she's completely out of the picture by the end of December by mid-December. I'm really mid-December because she's going on vacation. She tried so much to help her in that short period of time. And it's just a testament to how much, how much she put into this. I don't know, it is not our job to defend these doctors and it doesn't actually matter at the end of the day, but it bothers me. It bothers me that people that I think seem to be very caring, very dedicated, folks who want to help people are getting slammed like this. And I just think about all of the the psychiatrist and the nurses and the nurse practitioners and the people in mental health out there who know that any day a Lindsay Clancy could walk through their door and that because they try and help them, you know, if they just say, you know what, I don't really have any more room for anyone else, well, then they're great. But if they try and help them and if they go back and forth with them and they listen to their problems and they try to adjust the medications to fit what they're thinking and they try and work with their husband, they could end up not only testifying a criminal trial, but having a civil suit with their future is on the line, having themselves slammed across the internet and social media and everywhere else. And I'll just say, I've really empathized with those you out there who work in this field. And many of you have said things like this whole thing concerns you. Somebody was like, I feel like I need to up my malpractice insurance after this. And you guys have an incredibly difficult job. You're dealing with the greatest mystery of all the human mind. I appreciate everything you guys do. And as we said last time, I don't want this trial to affect those of you out there who need to seek mental health help. I also don't want it to affect those of you who are in this industry. So keep doing what you're doing. And hopefully this trial will come and go and not have a huge effect on your lives as well. Okay. So we're running to the end of this. She says she's prescribed none of those medications from January. They go through the records to show that. Not sure where those prescriptions come from. The last prescription she failed was on December 22nd. And the number of prescriptions is overblown. Some of them are for one pill. And some of them are for tapering all for titrating up. Now she recommended women's in infants, even though she has no affiliation with them. And the information that she would need from that would either have to come from the patient or the patients request. And Lindsay had told her that she thought she should come off the surgical multiple times. And based on that, she had started tapering the surgical. And she says, look, we finish up with the same questions we always have. She never had a plan. And there's not a single person who's going to testify that Lindsay Clancy ever said she had a plan to hurt herself or to hurt her kids or hurt anyone else. It's never going to be said. She had a supportive family. She had a lot of these protective factors that you talk about. And her husband was on the phone with her like she wasn't seeking this alone. He was very much trying to help her alongside her. And look, the worst thing that Lindsay ever reported to a doctor was entries of thoughts. And intrusive thoughts is a common complaint, particularly with postpartum depression. And usually those intrusive thoughts are exactly what Lindsay said. Thoughts of suicide, but no plan, no motivation to do it. And it was her depression was typical, her lack of motivation was typical. So was her anxiety. And why is this important? Because the things that Lindsay was presenting were simply not the kind of symptoms that would make you think we have an emergency here. You know, when we talked to Mama psychologist and they said postpartum psychosis is an emergency. It needs to be treated that way. And I grew them 100%. The problem in this case is Lindsay Clancy never said to anyone or demonstrated any symptoms that would have made a doctor or a nurse or a nurse practitioner or a therapist think this person has postpartum psychosis. So we need to take action. And that is one of the big issues in this case. And it's one of the issues that I think is only going to be more evident as we go forward. And more of the doctors and therapists and everyone else who treated Lindsay take the stand. Okay. Well, I'll begin to the point where one day of testimonies taking an hour and a half of recording. So such it is. And that's fine because we are committed to covering this case. And isn't it good that they break court at 330? Otherwise, we'd be here for. I was going to say, I'm impressed that we're able to jam all that in it to an hour and a half. Whenever it's like, I saw it was 330 and the judge is like, can I see it sidebar? And I'm like, Oh, yeah, I know what's coming. It's 330. It's time to take a break. And that's that's what they did. It was funny. They break at 330 and the judge is like, yeah, we've had a really long day to day. We'll try and have a long day tomorrow. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, nine to 330 with multiple breaks. That's really long day. We're just cruising through this trial. Once again, we've gone a little long, the literally dozens of emails that we've received in the last day about this and y'all. So many good ones. So thoughtful. So helpful. So many different perspectives. Praise criticism. Pro Lindsay Clancy. Against Lindsay Clancy. Amazing. Thank you guys. I'm sorry. I can't read every single one of them that you guys are sending. I'm going to keep trying to work stuff that you say into the episodes, because I think it is really helpful, but really appreciate you guys. As Alice said last time, we're really enjoying covering this case. It's not all we do. We have covered, let's see, we've covered we covered the episodes. We've done hundreds of episodes. If you really like the coverage of trials, we did the Derek Chauvin case.
We did the Murdoch case. We did two, Karen Retrile. - I'll say I can't believe that. - The second trial was on legal briefs. So this is obviously the prosecutors. Legal briefs is our other podcast, and we covered the second, Karen Retrile on legal briefs. And now this one. So check those out. But if you're also a fan of other concentrated crime, whether it's Scott Peterson or Ed Nunn, Syed or Darlie Bruteer, or Leo Schofield, or Temmogen Kinsu, or the Deatlov Pass incident. - If you're nodding to our government. - It's historical messages. - Yeah, historical mayhem, we got all that. I'm only saying this because so many of you are new. And it's great to have you guys, and I hope you'll check out the back catalog as well. If you have thoughts, shoot us an email,
[email protected]. Add prosecuteerspod for all your social media. Check us out there. Go to the gallery on Facebook to discuss this case, and really anything else you want to talk about. If you want to get these episodes early and add free, you can do that on Patreon or Apple subscriptions for as little as $3 a month. If you want to just record these live, you can do that on Patreon. And if you want to see the edited videos, join our substack, The True Crime Times. Just Google that and you will find it. All right, Alice. Any other brilliant thoughts you want to share before we sign off for today? - This really is all fascinating. You know, we went into this case knowing what was said in the civil complaints, which we already said were from the perspective of Patrick and Lindsay. So obviously she did in their version of events. And I will be very honest. My mind has been open to narratives in this case that I truly wasn't expecting. And that's precisely why trials are so interesting. And what evidentially is allowed into trial, what happens in testimony because testimonies are not scripted stage plays. They're real human beings reacting to real objections and rulings by judges. This is what us litigators live for because I do find this to be like the highest level of intrigue and excitement. This is like more exciting to me than writing rollercoasters. That sort of thing. And so if you're following along with us, this is what trials like. And this is why we always say listen to all the sides, listen to all the evidence coming in. And what we're trying to do is break that down for you. What we're hearing every day. We didn't know this testimony ahead of time either. There's still a lot more to come. There's still like more than half the trial to come. But if you have been introduced to narratives or explanations that you didn't know in day one of trials started after opening statements, welcome to the beauty and the excitement of the unknown within a trial. - It's so true. In trials, as we often talk about, and we always try and respect this, both as practitioners and as blockcasters, worst day of somebody's life. Often, and certainly in this case, reflective of a horrible tragedy. And something to keep in mind. But I gotta tell you, there's no human drama like trial drama. And there's a reason that people enjoy trials so much. 'Cause it is so purely human. It is people taking the stand and testifying to what they saw and thought and did and cross examination and how it's going and how it's affecting a group of 12 people who are a black box and you don't know anything and you're trying to predict what are they thinking about what they're seeing. It's incredible drama from that perspective and also really important for us as a society. One of the most fundamental aspects of our freedom are trials. That's how we decide things in this country. We don't have vendettas. We don't go after each other when someone is killed. The core of our government is a just system that decides these kind of questions in this not scientific 'cause I often say this is not a scientific process but a rule based ordered presentation of evidence where decisions can be made about guilt or innocence in the cold light of a courtroom. And I think it's an amazing thing even when you have such a massive underlying tragedy like you have here. All right. You guys are great. Joe wants me to mention if you leave a five star review and a question will answer it. We haven't been doing that lately 'cause we've been going so long but do that. Go to Apple, leave a five star review. Any question you have? Then that to be about a case can be about anything. Leave it, the answer. All right guys, who knows? We might see you tomorrow. - We might, we'll see what happens in trial tomorrow. - Yeah. We'll see you at some point in the future and whenever that is, we can't wait to do it. Until the end, I'm Brett. - And I'm Alice. - And we are the prosecutors. (upbeat music) - So one thing doesn't have to be that episode because it's not like medical advice. But a lot of people keep, this is how common intrusive thoughts are for like postpartum women. There are all these like reels and memes about them. Intrusive thoughts are things that just pop into your head that are like horrible, right? Like dropping your baby over the railing of the stair steps. And it literally pops into your head. You don't want it to happen but you're like, what if my arm twitches and I drop my baby over the railing? And people make reels about this all the time and it's something funny where it's like, what's wrong with me? Why do I think this? And they're holding like a baby doll and it's like a ridiculous thing. Like they trip on a banana peel and the baby flies up in the air and it falls into the air. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) But that's an intrusive thought. But if the doctor were like, well have you actually thought about how, you know, are you trying to go near the edge? But you're like, no, I would never throw my baby over the edge. You don't have a plan to execute that but those are intrusive thoughts because though it's horrible and you do control your brain in some senses, you didn't want to think about your baby. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to Pluto Fault. If you know the name of the movie you'd like to see, just stream it for free on Pluto TV. We're all your blockbuster favorites or landing all summer long. Catch anchor man, the legend of Ron Burgundy. - Fantastic. - The Matrix Trilogy. - Welcome to the real world. - Mean Girls. - Side up. - Titanic. - I'm the key in the world. - And so much more for Showtime's press nothing. They're free 24/7. - That is so epic. - On Pluto TV, stream now. - Hey, never.
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