378. The Lindsay Clancy Trial Part 6

The moment a body is found, the clock starts ticking 48 hours before the trail goes cold. From A&E and Crime House, this is the official podcast from the famous True Crime series, The First 48, I'm Carter Roy. Every Thursday, I revisit a landmark homicide investigation in depth with long-form storytelling built for your ears. Listen to and follow The First 48 on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts. I'm Brett and I'm Alice and we are The Prosecutors. Today on The Prosecutors, we continue with a Lindsay Clancy trial and begin to hear about her mental health history. Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors. I'm Brett and I'm joined as always by my finally getting somewhere co-host, Alice. We are finally getting somewhere on day, basically nine of trial, which most trials don't even reach day nine. Of course, this is a six week trial, so we've been told, but I've been waiting for this Brett Friday of the second week of trial. We are finally getting somewhere with the Lindsay Clancy trial. And if you haven't listened to the pre-coverage of this, maybe you want to do that first. Yeah, you know, I'll say this. This was an interesting couple days. The first day we're going to talk about not a lot happened and I had a lot of questions about what was going on. And then it reminds me, I'm always starting back to the great Gatsby, but there's this part in the great Gatsby where Nick sort of lost faith in Gatsby, but then Gatsby does something and he talks about how his faith in him was fully restored. It's a similar thing. I'm not going to say it's fully restored, but, you know, I feel like, and I don't spend too much time on this, because we've got a lot to talk about, but I feel like the prosecution's been kind of grasping around trying to find what they're doing in this case. But this last day that we're going to talk about towards the mid part of this episode was when it finally seemed like, okay, starting to see some things come together and really interesting testimony and going to be really interesting cross examination on Monday, on one witness, that we stopped after their direct examination. So we don't want to spend a lot of time talking because we got a lot to talk about. So let's just dive straight into day eight of this trial. And we start with Dr. Kimberly Springer. She is in the office of the chief medical examiner but in ME for 20 years, done 2,000 autopsies. And I know I said I'm not going to separate much, but I'm just, these medical examiners, they spend so much time, you know, in medical school and everything, just the dedication it must take to do all that and then be a public servant. It's just blows my mind and this is an example of one of those people. She did the autopsy on Cal and Clancy. He was 26 inches long, 24 pounds, lots of different medical efforts to save him. We're noted in the autopsy. As this begins, Lindsay Clancy is already sobbing. This is the first time you can hear her. By the way, you start to hear her over the microphone in the courtroom. She starts by as excess fluid and swelling, which is to be expected. They show the autopsy photos. He has abrasions on the neck from strangulation, abrasions on the forehead and particular hemorrhages on his face and cause the death. It's complications of mechanical asphyxia. Now, at this point, Lindsay is totally broken down. I don't know if this was the plan at the time to only do Cal and Zotopsy, but basically, we take a break. Lindsay leaves and it lasts for a good while. The break does. Everybody can compose themselves. When we come back, we have a different witness talking about a completely different thing. The next witness is Dr. Lindsay Rossert, who's a South Shore Medical Center pediatrician. You guys may remember from the timeline the day of the murders that morning, Lindsay Clancy took Korra to go to the pediatrician. She's the Clancy family pediatrician. She noted that there was nothing out of the ordinary with Cal and had met his milestones. Remember, this actually conflicts with what Lindsay wrote in her notebook where she said he was not meeting his milestones and it was causing her stress. She is the pediatrician. She has her notes and she remembers as well. She says, "No, he met his milestones just fine." She also does not recall any problem with Cal and refusing or not taking a bottle, which was another issue for you. Remember that Lindsay claimed was a stressor in her life. Apparently, that's not true according to the pediatrician. Let me just say, this comes up multiple times where she raises this issue with him not taking a bottle. It's funny because she said that to the nanny. At the time, I didn't really understand why are we watching a video of him drinking a bottle other than just to make it all emotional. I think the reason was just to point out the nanny thought, "This is a big deal. I should send her a video of him taking the bottle. He's taking it so well." It seems like he probably didn't actually have a problem with the bottle, but nevertheless, one thing we're learning about Lindsay is when she talks to doctors. We're going to see this a lot as we go forward. When she talks to doctors, I've admitted to this as well, but when she talks to doctors, she's really not truthful with them. She misleads them in strange ways, almost and not quite. I don't want anyone to claim, I said, "This is like a Munchhausen by proxy situation." I don't think it is, but some of the things she tells the doctors, she's overstating the things that are going on at home. It doesn't seem like you did have a problem with the bottle. He was meeting his milestones. There weren't these big issues necessarily with him, even though she talks about that. Of course, there's the famous Facebook post about her second child, where she says he's the most difficult human she ever knew. Just a little thing I noticed in this testimony. I wanted to extrapolate on that because I think we get a little inkling of, "I'm going to forget it's going to come up in our notes later," but something she writes later on is that she says things are so bad in my mind and am I making this to basically physicalize what I feel in here. I was trying to, in the best light possible as opposed to lying or a Munchhausen by proxy. I wonder if she's like, "There's nothing wrong with Cowan. He's a happy baby, the nanny said. This is the sweetest, happiest baby I've ever met. He does everything. He meets his milestones. All we care about is a baby who eats, sleeps and meets their milestones. If he's doing all those things, why does she feel so bad? And in some ways, trying to grasp at or make a non-issue or a very small issue, a bigger issue might validate how she's feeling inside. So I think that's a very charitable interpretation is rather than she's lying about Cowan. She kind of notes it a little bit later. Like, if I feel so bad inside, why don't I feel it out here? So maybe I need to externalize it to make it real so that I'm not the crazy one. I don't know, but I do think this is very interesting. I think the picture we're getting so far is Cowan's a perfectly healthy on the bell curve, right in the middle of the bell curve kind of baby. No more stress or less stress, by the way. Then a typical newborn or eight month old, which is to say a lot of work. So on this doctor continues to go on that she is trained, you know, she's supposed to look for any sort of struggles, but she's not specially trained in treating say postpartum diagnoses. But she herself never saw any visible signs of mental health issues with Lindsey that might lead her to refer Lindsey to others first help. She says that she was the one who saw them on January 24th for Corra's well visit. She said it was a very normal visit. She remembers it. Corra was behaving normally. She said that Lindsey seemed appropriate. You know, she was able to answer all the questions about Corra, what she was going through that day. She didn't notice any sort of flat effects. No obvious mental issues, nothing like not making sense. She seemed like her typical attentive mothering self. And that day, Corra came in because she had some stomach aches. And Dr. Rosher is the one who said, well, you know, if there's no obvious issue, let's try this mirror and relax the pdf sure or pdf like forget what it's called, basically maybe constipation. Right. That's it. That's the pediatrician on cross examination. She said she's always on the lookout for issues, but she never noticed anything with the clancy kids. She said that they were happy, they were healthy. And once again, the defense asked her if she knows a bunch of things she wouldn't know. Right. And that's just to get facts into the record. She's like, I don't know. I didn't treat them for that. This is all I know. But ultimately, what she says is that she always thought Lindsay Clancy was a good mom. I mean, at some point, the judge needs the limit. The defense attorney doing that. He doesn't have to ask every doctor if they knew something they couldn't know just so he can get it back in front of Jerry. Jerry gets it. They got it. You know, she called suicide hotline two times. Why would the pediatrician know that, but he's getting it in, whatever. All right, so now we move to the kids' daycare. Susan Ferroni, she works at learning sprouts. She teaches the three-year-olds, the four-year-olds. And this just reminded me of how many victims they are in this case, because you gotta imagine. She loved those kids. She taught Dawson, she knew Korra, she had a baby, and she actually went on maternity leave in November. After Thanksgiving, Lindsay had asked her how the baby was doing. Lindsay's demeanor was fine, no different than any other time. And she had no concerns about her. She had known Lindsay since 2020, but she saw Patrick more during the relevant period. So next is Susan Bertolo. And she taught the older kids at learning sprouts. The school that the kids went to. She taught the sunflowers, which included Korra. And she went to the sweet pea room in the afternoon. Susan said that she interacted with Lindsay over the class app. And that Lindsay was really responsive on the class app, appropriately so, as you would imagine, a attentive parent to be. And she said that Lindsay was usually the main parent who contacted the school on that app. She went on to describe Korra as amazing and wonderful, and she proudly said that Korra was absolutely ready for kindergarten. That Korra came to school on January 23rd the day before. And the only thing that was kind of out of the ordinary for Korra that day is she needed to use the bathroom more than she often did. She said that she was several times extra, not just one or two times. And she said that she didn't see any issues ever with Lindsay Clancy. She never saw issues that would concern her with the kids. And overall she had no indication that there were any problems with the Clancy family. She said when Lindsay was in the hospital, Korra told her in fact that she missed her mom several times, indicating a solid good mother-daughter relationship. And I'll say this. I mean, I understand the purpose of this is trying to show that she has no outward issues. I don't know how powerful this testimony is just because as we're going to hear from the experts, you can carry on casual conversations with people you see once a day for five minutes, even if you have psychosis. On the other hand, though, we're going to hear over and over and over again how great a mom. This was like the she's a great mom day for the court. And the one issue with this and the thing that I think the prosecution has to worry about. And we'll see how it goes. But the one problem is this day really does set up people to think there's no way this woman killed her kids if she's not psychotic. And that's a real danger where the defense doesn't have to show anything. It's like the fact of the murder proves the case for them. The prosecution cannot let any jurors think that because it's really hard to get out of that. Then you're in the what was the motive why did she do it? All this other stuff. And the more you hammer on how wonderful a mom she is, the more people are going to think there's no way a good mom like this would kill her kids. So even though I understand the purpose of this testimony, I think the downside I would have limited it. I would not have called all the people who got called on this day is you're going to see. So then we have Stephanie Williams. She taught the afternoon sweet P class with Korra. And she had taught her since she was three. She said she was a sweet girl. He liked to play as a princess, loved a little brother. She'd bought her a Princess Sophia puzzle for Korra. And this lady almost started crying at this point. It was very sad. And just reminded me of how many secondary victims there are in this case like we've been saying. When she reiterated on the 23rd, her stomach was hurting. Lindsay picked her up that day and when she heard their stomach was hurting, she said, let's get you home. Let's go get Dawson and go home. So pretty typical pretty standard. All right. Then there was Andrea Hinnigan. And she is a registered nurse at Mass General. Pretty interesting. She does screening for postpartum depression and she worked with Lindsay. They socialized together. She saw Lindsay twice after Count was born and often texted with her. She brought her lunch during the summer. She said that Lindsay was her typical self. November of 2022, they met for lunch. Lindsay told her that she was having some trouble sleep and anxiety. There were several nurses there at this lunch and they all gave her advice on what to do and who to see and what medication to take. They talked a lot about medication. Lindsay was saying that she was supposed to meet with a new therapist. There was no concern. On Andrea's part that Lindsay was going to harm herself or the children and they ended up sending names of people Lindsay might see. She also texted with Lindsay around Thanksgiving. Her mother-in-law, Lindsay's mother-in-law, had suggested a program about perinatal issues which she ends up doing as we're going to see later. She also texted her on January 23rd that she was thinking ever. Lindsay had said that she wasn't an inpatient program anymore. Talking about the first of the fifth program that she was in. He talked about having issues with side effects from drugs and coming off of them had been very difficult. Once again, she had no concerns that she was going to harm herself or the children at that time. She said Lindsay's tongue was not negative. It seemed hopeful and that things were going to get better. On cross-examination, she said that Lindsay always wanted to get better. She wanted to get out of this and she had known her since right out of nursing school. So for a very long time, Lindsay loved being a nurse. She was excellent at it. She had talked about having a brain fog and was concerned that she would not be able to go back to work because of that. And she described Lindsay as a very loving, caring mother who wanted a big family. These witnesses, they don't tell us much. These could be defense witnesses too. To be honest, we don't get a bunch of information except to really see the human element of what happens here. So next call to the stand is Bethany DeColibus. She is a nurse and therapist in private practice. But the reason she's there is that she was friends with Lindsay Clancy. She said that they met when they had these kids and they were new moms together and their kids were involved in similar activities and they were friends. And she would see the Clancy's at least weekly. She said that Lindsay was active. She was engaged. She was a friendly person. And throughout, she was friends with her from Cora to Dawson to Collin's birth. And she said that she never saw any changes in Lindsay's behavior after each of these births. She did notice that after Collin was born, Lindsay did appear a little more tired and Lindsay told Bethany that she had some trouble sleeping. But Bethany also noted it's a new born too that would be expected of a mom. Now for a period of time, it seemed pretty standard tiredness of every mom. But over time, Bethany said she realized that Lindsay's sleeping problems weren't improving. So she talked to Lindsay about seeking help from doctors for medication. Never, Bethany said, did it appear Lindsay was suicidal. And she never thought that Lindsay had any thoughts of hurting children either. And she certainly didn't say or verbalize anything about hurting the kids. She went on to say that Lindsay's physical appearance didn't change that she could notice. And she never had trouble understanding her talking. She didn't have the flat affes. She didn't change her speech patterns. There was just nothing obvious that stood out to her despite knowing her through all these three different births and seeing them at least weekly. Bethany had dinner with Lindsay one night. And she noticed that she was tired, but she didn't look like a zombie. She seemed fine at a party that they both attended the last time that she saw Lindsay. Now across examination, the defense says, you're good friends with Lindsay, right? So why didn't you probe about her specific symptoms when she told you that she was struggling with sleep? And Bethany just said, we're friends, but she was telling me what she wanted to tell me and I didn't want to pry. So I was there for her to tell me what she wanted. She went on to say that it was obvious that Lindsay loved her kids. She was warm. She was kind. She was consistent in loving. And that Lindsay expressed she was having difficulties, but she was not a complainer. And so Bethany did note that was a typical of Lindsay, but that she had expressed all that she was going to tell Bethany. She further said that Lindsay loved her job. And she was sad that she might not be able to go back to being a nurse. Another one thing you're going to see other than Patrick, who said that, you know, Lindsay at one point had sort of in a vague way mentioned having thoughts of harm the children, but it wasn't necessarily that she was thinking about harming the children. She was more worried that something was going to happen to the children, very kind of confusing, not cleared up much. Other than that, I don't know that we're going to see anyone who says that Lindsay ever said she had thoughts of harming the children. And you're going to see this. These witnesses are basically for the prosecution. They're showing no signs of psychosis, no signs that she was going to harm the kids, basically completely normal up until the time she did it for the defense. They're going to use it to say how wonderful a mom she is. And you can decide for yourself, which one of those things is more valuable and for who. The next witness was Amy Bevins. She's a behavioral analyst specializing in early intervention for kids with autism. And she knows Lindsay, and in fact, had been friends with her since childhood. They went to elementary school through high school together and remained friends. They texted. They talked. They would meet on occasion for breakfast and Connecticut with old friends. And everything seemed normal. And she texted with her in January just a few days before the murders. Lindsay shared that she had been taking a medication that calls her to have some dark thoughts. She'd been tapering off and was transitioning to another medication that would be better. She was hopeful. She never mentioned harming herself or anyone else. And in fact, this person, Amy, actually would see Lindsay after the murders. She would go see her. She was in her wheelchair. They talked, but no one mentioned the kids. She didn't bring it up. And in fact, she had been told not to. On cross examination, she says Lindsay's a great mom. When she did see her, she was in that wheelchair and the defense attorney question. Just for any of you still wondering where the defense attorney stands on this, said, you knew that she had killed her three beautiful children when you met with her. And the answer was yes. So just to note, defense attorney knows that she killed her three beautiful children. So those of you waiting for the mat lock moment where he says, "Ah, I was Patrick all along. That's not gonna happen." That's a great point. I didn't even, maybe that's the bombshell, guys. That was the bombshell from day eight. The defense attorney said it himself. There you go. Now, she didn't bring up the murders because Lindsey sister had told her not to bring it up. They spent about 45 minutes together. Before the murders, Lindsey had actually asked her about Lexa Pro. And she had told her she had some difficulties with medication. You know what stood out to me the most about Amy Bevis's testimony, though? Was that, though, Lindsey didn't bring up her own kids? Look, giving her all the benefits of the doubt. Maybe it'll throw you back into a spiral. We're not gonna talk about it, but she asked about Amy's daughter, who was obviously good friends with her kids. That really stood out. It was not a moment that anybody highlighted, but it stopped me in my tracks, because it's one thing to completely block off for preservation purposes to just make it through the day your own children's deaths that you caused. But to be able to ask about your children who you murdered friends and how they're doing as if nothing had happened was very jarring to me. The Prosecutors is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. 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They saw them then at his daughter's house at Thanksgiving, and while Lindsay seemed a little quieter than her normal self, it wasn't anything that stopped him in his tracks. And he said that Lindsay wore coordinating shirts with her daughters. He also said that he saw Lindsay get a little frustrated with Dawson at this particular dinner. She said Dawson was, you know, a handful. I'm sorry, what three-year-old boy is not a handful? Well, the handful, but a good boy, and that's exactly how he said it. But Dawson was being a little silly when getting a seat at dinner, and so Lindsay took him by the arm to get him seated. He said she didn't hit him or anything like that. She just guided him to the seat. In other words, seemed like appropriate mothering behavior. Now, at this point, Christopher did step in to help just because he said a lot was going on. He got Lindsay's plate for her so that she could help Dawson, and they could all sit down together. At dinner, they made plans to go to mass altogether as a family for Christmas, and he said that everyone was great at Christmas Mass, which is actually a huge accomplishment for your kids to sit through mass because my kids certainly don't. He said the kids were great. Everyone had a great time. And after Mass, he talked to Lindsay very briefly, and Lindsay said she was glad she came because she really loved the mass. Other than that, she seemed a little bit quiet. Now, this was like semantics that kind of got into it with all the lawyers because you can imagine the amount of guilt probably that Christopher's feeling. The question was, "Was that weren't you supposed to meet up with or go to Patrick and Lindsay's house on January 24th?" And he pushed back on that said, "No, we didn't have plans. They invited us over, but we already had plans to go to my other daughter's house, so we were going to come on Friday." And the reason I point that out is just little things like that really show you an insight into how difficult this is for so many people. I mean, what if Christopher had shown up that day? Would this not have happened at all? You can imagine all the things of guilt running through his head. But that was something that he kind of fought with with both attorneys the way they phrased it. So Patrick had actually invited his parents over to their house and they were busy on the 24th, so they were going to come to dinner later on that week. And he further went on to say that at times, he and his wife would offer to take the kids to their house just to give Lindsay a little bit of a break because they knew that she was having a bit of a difficult time. And I don't think she really took him up on that. And at times she seemed a little blank. She would just stare almost like she was nervous, he said. And then he talked very briefly about the day of the murders, January 24th. He said that night he got a call from Patrick. And when asked what was Patrick's affect, was just a terrible phrasing of the word. He was like, "You mean the day it happened?" He said, "It was horrible. It's terrible." And he said after he got the call, he didn't extrapolate on the call. He just said, "We went straight to the hospital to be with him." Now in cross-examination, Christopher talked about Lindsay's struggles, that she had a hard time sleeping. She didn't feel well and she had gone to the ER where his wife was working as a nurse. She was a nurse at South Shore in labor and delivery. And that when she was there, Lindsay did tell his wife some of her struggles. And that his wife referred Lindsay to South Shore Paranatal. All right. That brings us to Kyle Carney, his longtime friend of Patrick. Saul Patrick and his family at least every other month. He said that Lindsay was typically kind and caring. She had no real changes after the birth of Koran Dawson. I believe it was January 22nd, 2023. The family came over to the house, brought Koran Dawson. Lindsay was perfectly normal. They were having basically like a bonfire. They were burning some stuff and hanging out. She was a little quiet, but on that, it was a normal, great day. Next was Andrew Chacho. He worked with the detectives unit at the state police. Now, he was dispatched to the house and then sent to the CVS where he retrieved the surveillance video. The purpose really is he's checking out Patrick, right, making sure all his story is lining up. So basically through all the pulling out the surveillance videos, Andrew's able to track Patrick Clancy at the CVS and also at the 3v restaurant all in line with exactly what Patrick said he was doing. The detective mapped out the path that Patrick would have taken and how long it would have taken him to get to those various locations. All of that matched up with the surveillance footage that he got. In other words, it wasn't just a cover. It was exactly the path as you would expect. He also got a search warrant for the outside of the Clancy house where he was able to collect DNA from Lindsay Clancy. He was able to get posts from Lindsay Clancy's Facebook page. And in one of those posts, Lindsay is looking for help with Dawson, who she calls the most difficult human ever. And she went on to say in the post that every single thing is a battle and has been for a while. And she goes through basically the whole day. It feels like she has to force him to do normal things and she was seeking advice on what to do. During cross-examination, the defense says, well, okay, that post is from May 2021. So more than a year before the murders. And that he found nothing about Lindsay being abusive. All right. So that's the end of the day, but not the end of court. So we're done with the witnesses. I think they ended like one or something. You know, it's just weird. But they're going to have a hearing and you might think wow, it's going to be a long hearing It's not a long hearing but it was an interesting hearing Because the defense made a motion for permission to call some witnesses Basically, they want to call a few experts that they notice late They did not send notice to the prosecution with the CVs and what the expected testimony is which is what you have to do with experts Until the week before trial and that's a violation of the local rule and usually you have to do it like 30 days before hand So they had asked to do this a judge is sort of not ruled on it yet because he wanted to see how the evidence comes in Which is pretty typical the more important your expert is the more likely you're going to get Some grace on a late notice and he sort of goes through this like whoa is me. I'm a sole practitioner Standing here with the weight of the world on my shoulders, you know, I had two murder trials and another trial another trial You know it did all this stuff until right before this began only had a week to prepare did the best I could right And I mean honestly those arguments are pretty effective because the judge doesn't want the fact that lawyer is super busy To prejudice the Defend it. This is why it's much better to be a defense attorney in the prosecutors Judgment care about your schedule and how much you've had to do But when you got the defendant sitting there the judge is always thinking could this get this overturned later on If I don't let them do this is some court going to say You know you excluded their most important witness because they were a day late with the notice that was improper So he's going through all this he wants to call a few different witnesses He has some experts. He's definitely going to call but he has a few others He wants to call one witness who Initially he says is going to speak about the duty of care There was a Lindsey Clancy and the judge I think very wisely says how is that relevant and as we've talked about And we talked about one of our earlier episodes It's not actually relevant to the question of Where was her mind at the time that's a great question and the judge if it says this might be great for the civil case Right, but is that really relevant here in the criminal case eventually the Finsers like okay fine. We don't have to do standard of care But I do want to talk about the toxicology. So it's more the things they prescribe to her So it's standard of care from the perspective of Did the failure to follow it Cause her to have this event or could possibly have caused her to have this event and so the judges like okay That I can kind of get behind that at which point the prosecution's like well if he's going to testify about out of toxicologist So why are you all of a sudden saying this guy is going to testify about toxicology? Then they go into the substance of it Basically say you know, we didn't have enough time to properly respond to these experts We didn't get to look at their CVs Other experts can talk about her treatment and the judge isn't really buying this because The substance of this is let's say and this is you know This is why Perry Mason moments don't happen. This is why for instance the defense attorney is not at the end of trial Going to all of the sudden say never mind. It was Patrick who did it I mean hold that all along you don't get to do that you have to notice these things There's reciprocal discovery. There's going to be motions practice about that if they tried to make that point We would immediately break and we'd have to have a long argument about whether or not they could even raise that Because the whole idea is we don't want sandbagging we want all the information from the jury this relevant So if you as the prosecutor Okay, they didn't notice this specific witness on this specific point But you had to know that this was going to be an issue like you knew That at some point the defense is going to say it's the drugs and the way they work together and since you knew that Why aren't you prepared to her about that? Why didn't you have some of these doctors who've testified before talk about it? Great question, judge. I wanted the same thing one thing that was interesting and I was like, okay, fine So, you know, we've been wondering why didn't we get more good testimony about her physical Condition like why didn't they clear some stuff up what turns out because somebody forgot well, I mean, you know, I don't know So the actual trauma surgeon the one who actually treated her is in the military and currently deployed in the Middle East Okay, we can't call her now. I think you probably could have Figured something out, but that was for the prosecution's excuse about why they didn't do this before and but the judge didn't really buy any of this He's like look you knew about this and another thing This was the sort of thing we need to take a moment on one of the other witnesses gonna talk about suicide attempt And whether or not the wounds are indicative of a serious suicide attempt and the judge is like How could you not have anticipated this like you've been sitting up here talking about how it's not a serious suicide But it's a fake suicide attempt and the process is like no, no, no, no, no Our position has never been that it wasn't a serious suicide attempt and the judge is like what are you talking about? It wasn't your opinion From everything you've asked that that's what it was and so it turns out The prosecution has some super secret theory about this. Okay, so the theory is not That this was a fake suicide attempt so we can drop that I think Their super secret theory is similar to something we've said several times and the thing we've said several times is The Lindsey Clancy was very good at killing her children and not very good at killing herself And I think what they're gonna say is if she was truly under a psychosis Where she was acting in a compelled way to do the thing she was doing Then it compelled her to overcome the bounds of motherhood and murder her children It should have also compelled her to overcome whatever hesitation she had to commit suicide to kill herself Like it's not consistent that the voice was so powerful and she could not say no to it And she had to follow three with it to the letter That she was so brutally efficient at murdering her children But really bad at killing herself so I think that's what they're gonna say I think that's the best possible thing they could say But we don't know I actually wonder if this has been changing and shifting that originally was not a serious attempt And I wonder if it's been shifting a little and taking shape as they tried to like grapple with why Because why else would you put it at issue right we said this all along why put it issue she definitely cut her neck Maybe not deep but like what are you saying? I think that's the best way to go about it because they're showing like the call in between right like presumably I don't know if they're gonna say this within their timeline the 634 call after she missed a call at 633 from Patrick is If she were either in the middle of killing the children or just killed the children and then she was going to kill herself If that's like the call in between she's already like she's supposed to be in the middle of the psychosis But somehow is able to like snap out of it to have a normal conversation on the phone And then not Take the most successful methods of killing herself see now. I was the defense Mark it would be and I would I would consider putting Lindsay on the thing. I think she may have to testify She may have to she's not gonna have anybody who's gonna say she has any symptoms of psychosis. It's all in her head You know she is including the voices because she never told anyone and people keep pushing. Oh, you know It's it could be completely there's no symptoms. Okay, fine. But once again, we need some evidence And I feel like the only evidence we're gonna get is what she says. I would have her say That she was completely under the control of psychosis that she had killed her kids and then she got the phone call And I would have her say that That snapped it out. She started to like come back a little bit And then she was like hesitating to kill herself. And that's why that's what I would say if I was the defense Then I'm gonna the robot you here with the forgetting. It's all off track. We said we were gonna stay on track But then why not when you're laying on the ground scream out the babies are in the basement go help them What are you gonna do to defend because that is so bad you have to still be in psychosis at that point Otherwise those minutes killed Callan Callan could have lived she had on the on the frozen ground And it and then she was disoriented again But she could say yeah, she went back into psychosis at that point It's a very complex timeline judge and if you would just let me put on these experts you'd see how complex this is okay Sorry, this is clearly not what happened in court today We are extrapolating what it would be back and forth and also to show you why this is a difficult case For both the defense and prosecution But so far okay, there's there's a lot more and day nine we are about to enter into day nine Oh, was there anything we wanted to say about the question? They're gonna rule no ruling. No ruling. Okay Whew, I wore my workout clothes today because it's a workout y'all day nine Okay, today we are getting somewhere because we are actually getting into the people who treated Lindsay and can talk about Potential psychosis so here we go first witness of the day Kimberly hearty. I don't know why she didn't go the day before unless she didn't show up because she kind of fit more into the day before us Can I say this this woman now lives in texas apparently she had to fly all the women She sits for the testimony. She was on she was on a safe like minutes. I know and it wasn't even that important It was I mean truly and this that's why I said her testimony is gonna fall into like yesterday's camp of like a bunch of people That interacted with them and didn't know anything Totally normal, right? This is exactly what we expect. She's not a close friend. Kimberly hearty worked at the gym That Lindsay worked out at and Kimberly ran the playroom for kids like the the babysitting you could use it two hours a day And she would see Korra and Dawson Clancy in her playroom She said it was mainly Patrick, but sometimes Lindsay would drop them off and that Lindsay seemed shy There wasn't much conversation when she dropped them off and when asked why Callan didn't come Lindsay said that she was nervous about Callan and getting colds. Pretty norm, honestly. Babies getting colds, horrible. Now, she said that Lindsay was never late picking up the kids, 'cause remember, there's a two-hour limit, and that she never left the property after bringing them. Apparently people do that. They drop kids off the daycare at the gym and leave. Yeah, it's supposed to do that. It's supposed to be to work out. But she didn't do anything like that. The whole point is like, she really used it for working out, right? And Kimberly saw the clansies in mid-January. She said it was like January 13th and the 17th. That Lindsay came in the mornings and nothing about those two times she saw them in January sticks out in her mind. She said Kora drew a picture and left it with her the last time that she saw her. On cross examination, she said that the kids seemed like they were happy kids. They were always excited to see Kimberly and that she was not close with Lindsay at all. So she's just, honestly, the girl who ran the like daycare room for the gym. I think they also noted that Lindsay worked out. So it was like trying to manage her. That was the implicit was that she was trying to manage her depression. Now, next to the stand was Sarah Carney. Sarah was a friend of Patrick's. They went to school together and that she and her husband were friends with Patrick from school. And then later on when Lindsay entered the picture, they became friends with Lindsay as well. Both families, both couples lived in Ducksbury. And they would do things like go to the beach together. Their kids were similar ages. They played together. And she had known Lindsay before she hit kids and then through each of the three births of her children. She said she never noticed any changes with Lindsay after she had her babies. That Lindsay was an active person. She was the one who post, you know, workout videos, working out with her kids in the background playing with toys. And sometimes she did see that the kids were playing with exercise bands in the videos. She didn't notice any changes in the fall of 2022. That Lindsay never discussed postpartum issues with her. And she does talk about this bonfire that both families attended on January 22nd. She said everyone seemed normal. Lindsay was a little quiet. And when she asked her if she was doing okay, Lindsay said that she was fine. On cross examination, Sarah said that she knew Lindsay for about 12 years, but that it was a social relationship. They weren't particularly close. Sometimes Lindsay would ask her advice about babies and vice versa because they were, you know, like fellow parents on this journey of parenthood together. She said the bonfire on January 22nd was during the day and it lasted a few hours. - Yeah, and honestly, the only moment, really from any of this testimony that was the kids playing with the exercise bands in the background of videos. Otherwise, these first witnesses complete waste time. But finally, we get to maybe the most important witnesses we've heard from so far. Like up until this point, we've just had sort of crumbs about Lindsay's mental state as we talked about a few days ago. But now we're actually gonna start talking to the doctors who treated her and we're gonna put to the test this notion that Lindsay was horribly failed by the system that she wasn't treated at all, that she was over-medicated. The doctors didn't think about it, didn't care about it, didn't treat her at all. You're gonna see how much of that bear scrutiny. And the first witness is Dr. Alia Goodhart. She is the inpatient psychiatric attending physician at McLean. McLean is where Lindsay spent five days. And they sort of go through the whole process. They discuss section 12, which is the mandatory, you can send someone to an inpatient facility if they're the danger themselves of others. And then there's section 10. And section 10 is when you go voluntarily. So at first, you have an acute psychiatric evaluation to determine what's going on with you. This starts at the clinical evaluation center. You meet with a psychiatrist, you meet with a nurse, to take your history. Now, during this, so the defense, he keeps doing this thing where he's like, like the prosecutor will ask, what is section 12? And he jumps up and he's like, "She wasn't section 12, she was section 10, objection." Which you're not supposed to do. That's called a speaking objection. Most judges hate it when you do that because you're essentially testifying through your objection. He kept doing it. And finally, the judge lost it with him. The first time the judge is really that snappy. Day nine. And Bayon was like, you know, yells at him. He still was reserved in his yelling, but he did like make it clear. He did not want him to do that anymore. And it basically stops. All right. Now, she said, and I thought this was interesting because, you know, I don't know why I've ever watched anything on TikTok, but there was an interesting TikTok from a nurse who worked at this facility. And I don't know, I don't think she works there anymore if she does, they're probably gonna fire, because she basically described it as the most worthless place ever. They don't do anything and see a doctor. You just like hanging out. It's like a, as I described it, it's like a very boring resort. It was the way she described it. This is not how the doctor described it. She said the staffing schedule was the same on weekends and holidays. Her personnel other than social workers. So she would have met with psychiatrist and nurses and everything else. She goes through Lindsay's sort of coming to McLean. She came to them from the ER at Massachusetts General. It was a section 10. It was by her choice. She had met with a doctor named Outlaw, which is a great name at M.G.H. She was medically stable. They did a suicide screening. Her chief complaint was that she was finding it hard to sleep if she didn't take meds. And I'll say this, there's little suicide ideation we'll see throughout this. But her chief complaint was always sleep. Now, missing as much sleep as she was can really mess with your mind, but that really is the main thing for Lindsay. Is she just could not sleep? - No, not voices, not even necessarily pointing at depression. She keeps talking about sleep. That's her complaint about the medications. That's her chief complaint when she's talking to all these doctors. That's what she says to her friends. When she goes, remember when she had dinner with her friend, what she said was not, Dawson is so difficult. She said, I'm just not really getting sleep. So sleep is really her chief complaint that she has verbalized all over the place. - So she also talked about how she felt. NUM, and then she was having side effects of medication. I think Sarah Kwell was her main complaint at this point. So, Mass General is affiliated with McLean. So they were able to provide their records to them. And this including the screening excerpt that was in Dr. Outlaw's note. And there was a screening evaluation by Dr. Hogan, these are all psychiatrists. She did have thoughts of wishing to be dead, but she had no plan. It didn't seem like it was suicidal thoughts. I mean, I guess if you're wishing to be dead, is that a suicidal thought? I don't know, but she doesn't have a plan. She has no violent or homicidal ideation. There's no evidence of psychosis, no evidence of mania, just anxiety and this sort of problem with lack of sleep. And she had taken Rimmeron at one point and she did say when she started taking that, she did have some suicidal thoughts. And so she had stopped taking Rimmeron. And I think that's consistent with when we saw the pill bottles earlier, and she had not taken very much of that at all. And I don't even think it's, I think it's barely even mentioned in the civil complaint. - So then once she's here, the care plan is that they're gonna continue on the medication that she was admitted on and she was admitted to the hospital. Now in about 15 minutes, they do another check on her. And they assess her as low risk. It's a provisional diagnosis, but they say she has major depressive disorder. It's severe without psychotic features, note without psychotic features that is literally in their meaning they were looking for psychotic symptoms. And the diagnosis was dependent on the interactions they had with Lindsey Clancy, as well as the observations of the medical team. She was seen later on January 1st by a different psychiatrist, Dr. Elizabeth Madva. Now, Madva's notes here, note at 12.47 pm on January 1st, the eval is conversation. It relies on things reported before and on follow-up. And Lindsey denied feeling depressed, but she said she felt numb and mild anxiety at being in a hospital setting and that she had no thoughts of suicide at this point. It was determined that it was possible numbness was a side effect of the meds she was on. And so the plan was the taper and see if that numbness would go away and that the other symptoms would become more evident. So the plan was that she was on Cerecoil 100 milligrams a day, Valium 2 milligrams, Benadryl. And then at this point, she, in her notes, it states that they're suspected bipolar disorder, but in the notes, it says Lindsey Clancy disagreed with this suspected bipolar disorder. - And this is interesting just because, and we talked about this a little bit before we well-nair. It seems like Lindsey was a difficult patient and we have so many nurses and doctors who'd listen, hesitate to even say this, but I would never want to represent a lawyer. I think representing a lawyer would be really annoying. And I can imagine treating a nurse or treating a doctor is really annoying because they know a lot and they're labeled a question you. And I think you see that here and you're gonna see it as we continue through that Lindsey just often questioned the advice that she was getting from various physicians. - So Cerecoil is used for several purposes, not just for bipolar disorder. So for example, low doses are used for insomnia. Now Dr. Madva recommended reducing that Cerecoil and monitoring Lindsey's symptoms. Madva on January 2nd also saw Lindsey and she wrote that prior to this doctor's first contact, Lindsey reported sleeping well on a lesser dose of Cerecoil. She reported that she had no delusions, no suicidal ideations, none of the things that would lend anyone to think that she had a psychotic episode. So, Dr. Madva continued Lindsay on Saturday. 75 milligrams then tapered it down to 50 milligrams the next day, so there you go It's we're tapering off of Sarah quail. This is important the doctors didn't just say oh Sarah quail is not working for you Have a side effects. Oh, no more Sarah quail for you then that'll fix it, right? That's kind of how it's been described by the defense as that these doctors were just like while West With Lindsey, but they're not doing that. They're actually stepping her down 25 milligrams each day to get her off with this drug. She says it's causing her lots of problems I will say this about the psychiatrists that we've heard from today There's more to come but look just because you're a doctor and a treating doctor doesn't always mean that you're going to be good on the stand I found them to be very good in terms of being calm and patient as they explained and they seem to really know the case Of course, this is a massive case. I also can't imagine what it must be like to treat someone who ends up killing three of their kids Right like this is horrible on that level as well as a professional But they all came off not defensive they all seemed incredibly competent like they cared about their jobs And that they deal with difficult patients all the time and that there was nothing that stood out to me in these This this days testimony of psychiatrists of like obvious medical malpractice for example where they were just like throwing drugs around and like You know forget this. Let's do this. Maybe you are psychotic. Who knows? Let's go dance none of that They were very methodical in the way they testified and explained their steps in trying to figure out what was wrong or how to help Lindsay One point before I continue because someone mentioned this on Facebook and some of you may be interested in this Why can the doctor testify to what other doctors wrote what nurses wrote everything else isn't that hearsay she listened to our hearsay Episodes on legal briefs. It is hearsay, but there's an exception to hearsay here medical records or an exception to hearsay Documents that experts rely on to form the expert opinion also an exception to hearsay So a doctor can testify to what nurses are writing and other doctors are writing and everything else That's perfectly fine not a problem and we have this doctor who then is telling us nurses notes from January 1st to the 3rd Talks about how Lindsay participated in group activities and she was working with a social worker that she would see a mental health worker on January 2nd, she had interactions with both nurses and doctor Madva remember You had Patrick who testified earlier that Lindsay told him she had not seen a doctor the whole time she was there Which didn't seem right turns out it's not right. She was definitely seeing a doctor Whether that doctor's been enough time with her. I don't know, but she definitely saw doctors She reviewed notes when she met with Lindsay for the first time was actually January 3rd And she had reviewed the notes up to that date and she took another history She did another assessment of her mental status as she said her Magnosis is gonna be based on what she sees she's informed about what people have said in the past But she's making her own independent Diagnosis she said that Lindsay was polite and cooperative, but she didn't have an anxious mood she met with the doctor and a social worker Together and there was also a nurse they had a team that worked on every patient and the team consisted I think of a doctor a social worker a nurse and maybe a mental health worker I think there were four people on each team. She had a group around noon. She did some more stuff with the mental health worker Another group at 230 she declined group at 350 and she saw another mental health worker before going to bed On January 4th apparently she had a good night's sleep and she reported sleeping well And so this was good and they had a conversation about going home now I question whether she actually slept well Because she wanted to go home and as I think we're gonna see Lindsay will tell you if you're a doctor what you need to hear To get what she wants and she wanted to go home for course birthday party So maybe she said oh had a great night's sleep. Oh the thing that I came here for is really working out She was originally supposed to be discharged on Friday, but she wanted to go a day early She said some of her anxiety now was actually coming from being in the hospital and that she thought if she was home with family and children She would be better off and the doctor said we will let you leave a day early But we want you to have a psych follow-up the next day and she did this for a couple reasons She wanted to ensure that if Lindsay was unable to sleep than not after discharge She would immediately meet with someone who would come up with a plan to Continue to try and work on this insomnia and monitor her condition Secondary purpose she did not want to let her leave unless she demonstrated that she was capable of Taking care of herself. So this was sort of a test. 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That's covered by insurance So the idea for the rest of that plan would be Lindsay takes no Cerequeil on Thursday night, but she would remain on ad-a van that night She had trasidone a sleep medication as an option if she couldn't sleep now leaving on Thursday the fifth without a monitor on With no Cerequeil now the doctor said she did not have a concern about the safety of Lindsay or others because Lindsay was Future oriented. She was invested in her children look. She's leaving to go to a birthday party That's future oriented others invested. She had her parents around her. She had good family and plenty of support She said that the outpatient follow-up was just the next day and there was no history of postpartum psychosis or suicide So these things all led the doctor to say okay, she can go, but Lindsay told her that even if she had any thoughts She would never carry out a suicide out of concern for her kids and her mom So whether that's really what she thought or not. She herself said don't worry I've never had suicidal ideas. She is but even if I did I would never carry them out because I can't I care too much about my mom and my kids Now, Lindsay didn't make any statements supporting suicidal ideation and she never reported having thoughts of harming anyone else, so she secured that outpatient appointment on her own was able to do so, was able to think clearly enough to do so. So the medication plan for Lindsay was out of hand for sleeping, that was just a short term plan, triazodone, as needed, and melatonin. She didn't give Lindsay a prescription for different doses of Sarah Quill. She assumed that Lindsay would take what she was prescribed and Dr. reached out to Patrick. He reported that Lindsay hadn't ever had suicidal ideations reported that Lindsay was concerned about dependency on drugs, so there wasn't like a potential problem of drug abuse, for example. Lindsay had told the doctors that Patrick was the one concerned about her drug dependency. Now, Patrick said that Lindsay felt societal pressure to take the meds and said that he was very unhappy with the medical care that she had received. He basically said that all her friends are taking psychiatric drugs and she feels like she needs to take them too. It just almost… It's like the opposite of… And it's just another example. And it's just another example. And she's not that many about too much, yeah. Where you're getting this information from Patrick, which conflicts with the information that she's giving you directly. And Lindsay never complained that she wasn't getting seen by staff or doctors. She never filed a complaint. But there was a mechanism to do so posted everywhere around this facility. And she always had the ability to request to see someone. She continued to do groups and engage on the fifth and she was discharged that afternoon. Upon discharge, she was provided with information. Social workers suggested finding a new doctor and someone that she felt comfortable with that could manage her care. She was given a 14-day supply of out-of-am and 14-day supply of triad-ed-on and she was asked once again, "Are you any suicidal, homicide of thoughts?" She denied them, asked that she had a plan. She denied them, asked if she had any thoughts about harming others. She denied them, standard questions, every interaction, and before discharge. So as far as these people were concerned, you had someone, and I think this is important because these people and the medical system and general have been hammered. You have somebody come in, she's reporting what she's reporting. She's presenting how she's presenting. She is not presenting or reporting anything that would lead anyone to think this woman's going to kill her children in three weeks. That is just not coming across. It's not in the documentation. And what this woman is saying is consistent both with what the next doctor will say, but also consistent with all those normal people who knew Lindsay and spoke to her and talked to her and everything else. So I was poopoo in the prosecution and put all those people on, but those people who have no reason to lie, Lindsay was telling them the same thing that this lady's saying she told them. So I think we probably can assume it was not a out of line way of treating someone with the symptoms that she's presenting with. So then it's cross examination and the defense went into the resources that were provided. They had discussed about going on psychology today website, name of a case manager through insurance to contact for assistance and finding new providers. And they really hammered the fact that Lindsay voluntarily section 10, right, admitted herself and she was not committed. In other words, she chose to go. She was seeking help. She was crying out for help and didn't get it. And she was in the EB1 South Ward, specifically the defense wanted to hammer on the fact that basically McLean wasn't well staffed during New Year's. This is New Year's Eve. He said that the doctors on shift were four psychs assigned, including this doctor, a nurse assigned to each team in four teams, then the team included a psych, a psychiatrist, a nurse, a social worker, an assigned mental health worker, and that they had three shifts a day and that the doctors are not assigned shifts. They went on to say that when Lindsay admitted herself, she was evaluated in CEC by psych and then they went to the unit where MedVar later saw her on January 1. The full psych evaluation consisted of her chief complaint, sleep, the history of presence or presence of illness, substance abuse, mental status, exam, prior history, etc. And that doctor outlaws prior history part of the exam was just the prior history from like a document on her previously. So the third party contacts we're talking about were done by a social worker. This is a social worker who contacted Patrick and she's the one who gave them the information that Patrick provided. Now there's also Dr. Gelata. They talked about this, she was being treated by Dr. Gelata. Now Dr. Gelata's records were not available to the folks here and this was something that defense hammered on because they did not seek those records even though she was treating her. Essentially, it's not on the same system. They could have gotten access to those records but they didn't feel as though they needed them because essentially Lindsay was a very cooperative patient. She seemed to be truthful, she wanted to get better, she was telling them details of what sort of medication she was on, probably helped that she was a nurse. She could speak the language and so they just didn't feel there was any need to get that information from Dr. Gelata but you know, was this a good idea? I don't know. There was also Latisha Dukes, she was at South Shore, she's the one who did the perinatal thing that we're going to talk about more of the next doctor prior to the admission. So she knew that Lindsay, the doctor who's being called as amund at this point knows that Lindsay is on Cerequail and Valium and she also knew that Dr. Tufts had been the first psychiatrist consulted, he and she is an expert apparently in perinatal care and Lindsay had told them that she prescribed Zoloft which is an SSRI antidepressant and as I said, Lindsay was cooperative, she was forthcoming and there was no reason to second guess what Lindsay had reported and they also knew from Lindsay that Dr. Gelata had concerns that she was bipolar which had matched up with some of the concerns of the doctors there but once again was something that Lindsay denied and we're going to see this later on that it's real question whether or not she has bipolar. Dr. Tufts, you know, is going to talk about this. So she knew at this point that Dr. Tufts had prescribed 25 milligrams of Zoloft which had then increased to 50. There was no reason to think there was anything wrong with this and in fact this turns out to be true. There were no psychologists on staff in the unit which is that a good thing, bad thing, I don't know. I guess it depends on whether or not you're a psychiatrist or a psychologist who you think people should be seeing. As a psychiatrist or medical doctor, they can prescribe medication, psychologists are not, doesn't necessarily mean psychologists aren't as good or better than psychiatrists, they're just different and so a lot of the psychiatric testing that a psychologist would give was not given at this hospital which is something that defends hammered on a little bit as well and he also does the standard thing. Did you know she called a suicide hotline? Did you know this? Did you know that? Obviously, the doctor does not know. Social worker talked to Patrick and that when Lindsay was first prescribed Zoloft, she reported she was unable to sleep for 48 hours. She doesn't exactly remember the exact time. She just knows that Lindsay had difficulty sleeping and would have preferred to have more information about sleep patterns for adjusting her needs. The difficulty sleeping is a symptom of several conditions and can worsen others. She knew that Lindsay was struggling with anxiety and insomnia and she did observe her sleep while on unit. She would not know after she left unit because she was preferred, that her sleep patterns prior to New Year's Eve, not prior medical history other than what Lindsay would have told her. Now, sometimes patients lie about their symptoms. As Brett has told you he lies about how many drinks he has to his doctor, Lindsay, the doctor reported, was cooperative and reliable so the expectation was that she would follow the recommended care. The doctor then said that her intrusive thoughts were suicidal ideation and that she would stop using Zoloft after discussing with Dr. Tufts. This doctor probably hasn't treated anyone with postpartum psychosis before but she has treated postpartum depression for over 20 years. Then they discuss the DSM, which is like the manual for diagnosing mental illnesses. In it, it says that postpartum depression may be a subcategory of depression and not sure about postpartum psychosis though. Postpartum goes from about four weeks to 12 months after baby is born depending on who you ask. And the doctor was asked if she was aware of the efforts to include postpartum psychosis in the DSM 6, she said she was vaguely aware and she was asked about the thyroid. She did say that the thyroid can affect mood and anxiety but that they did not do a thyroid test on Lindsay so that's what they had there. Now this was interesting because she clearly wasn't an expert on postpartum psychosis and the DSM and what's included as like diagnoses is like a whole other board. Like for example, there are sentencing guidelines commissions that help advise on what the criminal guidelines are for sentencing that lawyers, unless you sit on those or follow them and read academic articles about it, you may not know. So this DSM stuff, she didn't really know what she was talking about but that's totally normal unless she was actually someone who worked on DSM categorization and revisions. was they talked about the end of the year. Postpartum depression scale. She said that this was not administered on Lindsay because they don't administer scales It's just not one of the tools they use. They have lots of tools and this was not one they used She also says that it's on a regular procedure to do a blood test and her team did discuss the case in rounds and they discussed Lindsay's history. So in the middle of this they take a break and This is a moment they got some play in the press the defense attorney gets into a tizzy About the prosecution supposedly saying to quote shut her up when they were taking a break yesterday So you may recall as we talked about earlier Lindsay was having a little bit of a break down during the autopsy photos What actually happened is one of the prosecutors said to shut it off talking about the screen with the pictures The autopsy photos on it as they were going to break and as they were wheeling Lindsay out and this somehow Got translated into shut her up the defense attorney. You know, I'm glad you're not on the Patrick did it trained But you might want to spend a little less time on the tic-tocks So you don't embarrass yourself in the future But the judge gives an ammunition don't say anything you shouldn't say if you do I'm gonna kick you out etc and we all Moved on she comes back a couple more questions. She's not discharged against medical advice and she reached out to the provider As instructed at this point we have redirect in which the doctor has shown Lindsay's Discharged paperwork. This is important because of the defense attorney and sort of hammered on you didn't really give her any Resources you send her to a website and told her to talk to her insurance and that's it They give her the paperwork and actually contains two different packets with instructions and resources for someone who is Discharged and directed her to a case worker because she was looking for a new provider and as we all know if you're looking for a new provider You need to talk to your insurance company to make sure the provider is covered by insurance She had mentioned foggyness is a problem, but she improved while she was at McLean and she reiterates We take history into account, but the main way we diagnose people is what is happening in front of us? And of course you can imagine if you did the opposite if she came in she looked at her records and diagnosed her based on the records What would the obvious attack be? What do you mean you didn't talk to her? What do you mean you didn't spend time with her? What do you mean you just took their word for it? Right? Well, they don't do that at McLean. She does her own Evaluation so good, bad or indifferent and I'm sure we'll see more of this in the civil case It did not feel to me coming out of this the defense had scored a lot of points or really just shown how incompetent these people at McLean were No wonder she went on the killing spree afterwards if you went there You would too type thing, right? There was not that kind of moment during the cross I mean, this is exactly right everything we were told before about McLean and how like Ineffective or maybe even malpractice it was doesn't seem to be the case so far. We're not done Next is Dr. Jennifer Tufts. I'll say I was very impressed with this testimony So she's a psychiatrist and she's been one for four years She went to medical school and then to Boston Medical Center for her residency She treated Lindsay Clancy. She first saw her on September 15th, 2022 So you'll remember her name probably because she will appear on a lot of these prescriptions. This is obviously pre-murder Now she said that Lindsay previously had taken Prozac and well butrin while in nursing school and Lindsay told her she had no side effects at the time now Prozac is an SSRI and Lindsay said she drank one to two drink Five times a week and she said she felt guilty about that. So from experience that means she's drinking at least a bottle of wine every night I was gonna say four to six drinks like right you double it because like I don't know that you'd feel like guilty about drinking a drink a night But and let me just say now Lindsay might because she's not an anxious person This Prozac thing is pretty important because remember the whole defense theory is you don't give an SSRI to somebody who has bopolar Because it triggers them and that didn't happen to her in nursing school. It doesn't necessarily mean it wouldn't happen later But it is a data point that we have that cuts against that argument that the defense is trying to take yes now Lindsay listed her high S five six and She said that her symptoms included anxiety attacks depressed mood and unable to feel pleasure and racing thoughts She did not check off the feelings of emptiness form pulse of behavior or excess energy buckets She filled out a suicide risk factor form and she stated that she did not want to enter life And she did not have a plan for how to kill herself She said she did not have access to weapons and she had not made a suicide attempt nor has she done anything to hurt herself Importantly, she said she had not heard voices telling her to hurt herself that she had not heard voices telling her to her others And the answer to all the questions on the checklist for this suicide risk factors were no Now she also gave her a generalized anxiety disorder screening now toughs just brought her notes and kept them up there with her Which was great because the defense remember what they've been doing This is they probably learned that the prosecution probably learned from this. It was like just bring your notes up there with you Because he's gonna play this and you can be like let me look at my notes So well played prosecution way to learn from days before Now Lindsay responded that she feels anxious. She can't control worrying and nearly every day She's feeling these anxiety worrying feelings. She indicated anxiety disorder and then Dr. Tufts also did a screening tool for depression now some answers were positive So she needed to be assessed for depression Because she felt down she was depressed or hopeless Well, she reported no hallucinations no symptoms of mania no symptoms of psychosis And this was interesting because this is the first time we got a rundown by a psychiatrist about what the symptoms of psychosis As I've said many times and seems like everybody talks about this case once the act like psychosis is the ninja of mental health issues and You just you can't see it coming. It's just Comes upon you and there's no way to know that is not true It may manifest like that, but there certainly are symptoms you can look for and some of them are and this is what this doctor was looking for every time she saw Lindsay so there are physical signs you can appear to shovel you can be agitated you can be uncooperative You can have loud speech fast speech or just not speaking at all And then internally and this can manifest obviously when you're talking to someone you have disorganized thoughts Your heart to understand you jump around a lot and the content of your thoughts is about bizarre or paranoid Things and so she did an assessment on her for psychosis which she does with every patient and there were no signs in the first meeting And Lindsay do not ever having heard voices or ever seeing things People can't see she said she was well oriented and she had no issues at this time with insight or judgment She had no issue with memory no issue with her general knowledge of the world and she also assessed her mood Lindsay's mood was okay now mood is what you tell the doctor affect is what the doctor sees so Lindsay says I'm okay Doctor sees anxious and this is sort of consistent with what we know and she talked about a few things she looked for for anxiety Voice quivering shaking appear nervous and a few other things So Dr. Tufts said that her first meeting with Lindsay was about 50 to 60 minutes long and Lindsay's biggest concern was anxiety So Dr. Tufts recommended therapy in Zoloft They had a discussion about whether Lindsay wanted to take the Zoloft because Lindsay was reluctant about medications But Dr. Tufts explained that the first line medication for treating anxiety was Zoloft and it's safe for babies when breastfeeding So she gave her a 25 milligram for one week and then increased it to 50 milligrams And when Lindsay took it or she prescribed it Lindsay never called Dr. Tufts to complain about the Zoloft Then Dr. Tufts referred Lindsay to Jennifer McAllister who's a therapist now Dr. Tufts would review these records from the therapy sessions to help guide her treatment of Lindsay And her goals for Lindsay were symptom reduction and improved functioning Lindsay said she worried about side effects in general and so Dr. Tufts went over the side effects of Zoloft with Lindsay Lindsay was diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder and adjustment disorder with depressed mood On September 15th Dr. Tufts had an appointment with Lindsay. There was a detailed history of present illness For example, that Lindsay had tried Zoloft after her second baby that she mentioned initial side effects which are common in transient And she doesn't remember them exactly but it wasn't particularly concerning now Dr. Tufts noted these are typical side effects that affect the gut because serotonin is in the gut and the brain And Lindsay noted that she was very anxious to leave the baby. She's worried that Calon won't eat or sleep because he's refusing the bottle And that makes her irritable She said that she had no ideations no concern about hurting her baby and she denied any thoughts of hurting the baby And they had a treatment follow-up plan You mean you had serotonin in your gut Explain so many things about my eating habits Okay, so one thing you're gonna notice as we go through this is Dr. Tufts met with Lindsay a lot This was not she met with her once gave her some drugs and sent her own She then meets with her on September 28th and they're following up on the Zoloft turns out Lindsay decided not to take it She did say she was feeling a little bit better and she said the baby was getting sleep So she was able to get sleep They did a mental status exam and she was appropriate across the board No real issues the doctor did say that she felt like her insight was poor and the reason for that was She had clinically significant anxiety, but despite that she did not want to try the medicine that she was being prescribed for this issue. She noted that her meetings are about 25 minutes, they're 17 minutes of therapy, and then the complete meeting takes a little bit longer. At this point, she reminds Lindsay you need to go make that appointment with Dr. McAllister and Lindsay says she will do that. Guys, if you know us, you know that we're always feeding children, and usually that means we're having to cook something. That's where our place comes in. Our place makes beautiful, high performance kitchenware designed to make home cooking easier, simpler, and more enjoyable. Everything is designed to be multifunctional, so you're not filling your kitchen with single use pans and appliances that only do one thing. And this is important to me with three little kids, their cookware is made without forever chemicals, and has been since day one. This third party tested to meet global safety standards. Their products aren't just aesthetically pleasing. They generally perform, which is what keeps people coming back. 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So while the kids were still taking off their shoes, washing their hands, I started the wonder of in pro with the air fryer I made fries, fresh chicken, and vegetables in minutes. They were ready to eat quite literally in 10 minutes and everything tasted amazing, and it fed my entire family of six people. Upgrade your kitchen with our place today, visit from our place.com/prosecute and use code "prosecute" for 10% off-site wide. That's F-R-O-M-O-U-R-P-L-A-C-E.com/P-R-O-S-E-C-U-T-E and use code "prosecute" for 10% off-site wide. With a 100-day trial, you can try it completely risk-free. So then on October 3rd, Lindsay needs paperwork because she wants a maternity leave extension, but she doesn't feel comfortable going back to work yet, because she says that the baby won't take a bottle, and so during her meeting with Dr. Todd, she discusses her anxiety. Now she felt like a medication might be helpful after all, despite the hesitations earlier on, but she wanted to try therapy before medication. Now Dr. Todd thought it was important for her to do therapy, so she could spend some more time with Lindsay, and the team could figure out a better treatment plan for her. They did a mental status exam, but nothing had changed. Her insight was still poor as she previously reported a week earlier. Lindsay then met with McAllister, the therapist, and she said that she was close to her parents and her sister, that she was not particularly close with her in-laws, and she didn't allow her in-laws to watch the children, but she didn't give any particular reason why. So. And I think this is relevant, because she's seeing the doctor a lot. Right. She is. She needs to paperwork for the maternity leave. She says the baby's not taking the bottle. Seems like that's not true, but whatever, which is going to leave that there. Okay. I'll note this, because a bunch of you are noting it. Yes, I agree with you. It is very common for the actual breastfeeding mother to not be able to feed a bottle, because the baby's like, "No, I want the real thing." But you would think, usually, when you report something like the baby's refusing the bottle, you've tried other methods, because especially labor and delivery nurse, I think would note that, yeah, it can be difficult for a breastfeeding mother to feed a bottle to her own baby, but that's where the mom, and I did this when I was going back to work, leaves the room and like, dad or in-laws or sister feeds the bottle to the baby. And only then, if the baby continues to refuse the bottle, do you think, "Okay, there might be an issue." So I only note that, because I recognize that breastfeeding mothers may have difficulty feeding their own baby's bottles, but she's generalized here saying, "Gene said, I've tried everything. She's just reporting, and people take it at face value that the baby's refusing the bottle." So October 10, Lindsay follows up on this whole return to work extension thing. She needs to change the document, because toughs in the document had put that when Lindsay returned to work, she needed a reduced work schedule, which is something that Lindsay, and she had agreed on, but it was a little ambiguous about when Lindsay wanted to start. Lindsay wanted to go back to work around January 1st. She wanted to set that as the return date with the reduced schedule, and she needed to adjust the document. 10 days later, on to her 20th, they have another meeting. And Lindsay tells her that she decided to take the Xoloft after all, and she had done it for one week. Now what was supposed to happen is she started the Xoloft on the lowest level. She takes it for one week, and then she was supposed to step up. So what she said was she took the Xoloft for a week, then she stepped up, and after she stepped up, she felt awful. This is interesting, because it doesn't seem like it's true. As we know, it's a defense attorney pointed out in his opening statement. Lindsay took exactly seven pills of Xoloft. She took one week of Xoloft. She did not take nine pills, which is what you would expect, because the step up is supposed to be taking two pills the next day. She didn't do that. Maybe she thought a week was five days, she did five days, and then did the two. I don't know, but it's at least inconsistent with what we've heard before. And now she says, after she did the step up, now she's feeling even more anxious. She can't sleep at all. She went 24 hours to sleep, all of these things. And now she's scared to try something new. She's worried about any other drugs. Now she is asked at this point if she's suicidal or has homicidal thoughts. She says no. And as the doctor said, she was very clearly not psychotic, which was how she described it. She did appear, however, depressed. And she was concerned that she would get suicidal thoughts. This was part of her anxiety. I don't know what that means. I don't know how one is concerned that they will feel suicidal in the future and that not be them feeling suicidal now. But nevertheless, she's worried that she's going to feel suicidal in the future. So at this point, the doctor says, okay, we need to stop andzole off. It's clearly not working. And you don't really want to do anything else. So she says, let's talk about some natural remedies. It's like about natural things she can do since she don't want to do a prescription. And they go through various things. And she says, essentially, I was not going to push her to do an additional drug if she didn't want to do that. If she truly doesn't want to take prescribed medication, we need to find something else. So on October 21st, the next day, she has another appointment. Lindsay said she was feeling poorly after the zoo loft. So the doctor wanted to follow her closely. And Lindsay was planning on making another appointment with my callister, but she had not done it yet. Now, Lindsay reported she did not sleep the night before, but she still reported having no ideations. She did have a depressed affect. And even though she said she wasn't depressed, just anxious. Now, these meetings up to this point have all been virtual. She decided to start out of van as needed for severe anxiety on the lowest dose. Because she wanted Lindsay to try for one week. And she recommended more therapy with my callister. And she told Lindsay she wanted a one week follow up. And basically, the doctors asked, why did you want to see her so soon? And she says she was having problems. We're trying out these other drugs. I want to see how they work. So I want to see her often. I don't want to go along period of time without seeing her. On October 26th, they have another meeting. At this point, her affect was depressed. She said she was anxious and depressed. And they discussed the ad of van. Lindsay said it made her feel less anxious, but it did not help her sleep. She had tried Benadryl and it had helped, which the doctor was fine with that. Another reporting I'd seen that the doctor told Benadryl, but it seems like that was actually Lindsay who decided to do that. She had no signs of psychosis. And she had finally scheduled another appointment with my callister. So they started talking about new medication. At this point, she's been off the zoolothed long enough, the side effects have resolved. So they decided to try a bus bar twice a day. They did five milligrams once again, the lowest dose, so it's consistent. Every time she puts her on a drug, she starts at the lowest dose. And she says the reason for that is she had concerns about side effects. And obviously, if you start on a lower dose, she can manage those side effects better. Now this is a drug that lowers anxiety and she says, take adivan as needed. So you had these longer term drugs, which if you take them long enough are intended to lower your anxiety long term. The adivan is supposed to be, you're having an anxiety attack. You take it to manage those sort of severe anxiety moments. She also told her she should take hydroxazine, which is similar to Benadryl, but it's It's both better than ad-a-van because ad-a-van has some addictive qualities. qualities and it works better for anxiety than Benadriel because Benadriel is not really for anxiety and she's still apprehensive but she doesn't tell her anything specific. Now what she does do is she does have another appointment on October 31st with Jennifer McAllister. She goes to the appointment and it is an hour long. So a couple days later on November 2nd Lindsay has a virtual appointment with Dr. Tufts. Now Dr. Tufts said that Lindsay never said she wanted to do an in-person meeting but Lindsay said she did not start the bus par. She was too afraid to start it and so she continued with the adivan and there was no discussion of kind of the other medications. Dr. Tufts reported that Lindsay's affect was appropriate and that she reported normal mood and they also discussed alternatives to adivan. Now it was not a medication she was supposed to take for a long time like Brett said it's supposed to be for those like anxiety attacks because it can create dependency. Now, Remarorn, Trasidone, Hydroxazine, et cetera, those have no risk of dependency and they can help with sleep and anxiety but Lindsay said that she had no change in mental state. So she decided to taper the adivan slowly by 0.25 milligrams every two weeks but she had not yet decided on these other new medications that had been suggested by Dr. Tufts. On November 22nd Dr. Tufts learned that Lindsay had started at the South Shore Parinatal Clinic and that she was using the adivan and the benadryl. Now Dr. Tufts said that Lindsay was supposed to be off the adivan by then remember she was going to taper off that adivan. Now Lindsay denied that she had suicidal and homicidal ideations and she said that she would transfer to South Shore and stop seeing Tufts. So Lindsay is the one who says she's going to not see Dr. Tufts anymore. They talked about a return to work letter and Dr. Tufts gave her one. But, Lindsay doesn't end with Dr. Tufts because apparently her initial plans don't really work out. She has another appointment on December 1st. Lindsay scheduled this herself which is something you could do. If you needed to schedule an appointment, apparently it was very easy to do so with Dr. Tufts. So she goes back to see her and she said that she decided not to return to work. She wasn't getting better and without adivan she could not sleep. I'm kind of interested in this old adivan thing because it seems like the only drug Lindsay liked was adivan and it seems like maybe she was taking it too much. I don't know what the effect would be there, but certainly Dr. Tufts wanted her to wean off with this and you would think Lindsay would want to do that too given her concerns about addiction. But she's not. In fact, it seems like she's starting to rely on it more regularly than you're supposed to because it's supposed to not be for regular usage. In fact, it appears that she was given multiple other alternatives that were supposed to be not no risk of dependency and she turned them all down. So it turns out when she goes to South Shore, they are prescribing her more drugs. She gets prescribed trasodone 50 to 150 milligrams, prozac 10 milligrams. She tried to rimmer on and seraquel. Seraquel is what was going to end up being the problem that leads her to McLean. Now she didn't love all these drugs, they were prescribed by South Shore, trasodone is a sleep medicine 50 to 150 is the commonly prescribed dose between there for sleep. You can take her for other things, you go higher than that, but that's her sleep. Prozac is an SSRI, which is one that she had tried before. Remember back when she was in nursing school. This time it sort of bothered her sleep. She was still having this issue with being able to sleep. Rimmeron is an antidepressant, she also had clonopin, which is a benzodiazepine. She was prescribed that as well. So she said that Rimmeron had made her have intrusive thoughts that made her feel like she was going to die. She said she didn't have suicidal ideation, but she was close to it. She was feeling hopeless, she did not have any plans. At this point, she has what may be the most sort of honest assessment of her own issues. She says, quote, this is probably a me thing. I keep reaching out to different people and not sticking to the plan. And this was a problem that Dr. Tufts really kind of hammered and said, you need to find one doctor who can manage your medication. You need to have a plan that you're following with one person who's overseeing it, which is a legitimate issue. And she noted some medications can take a while to kick in. It's going to take time. You have to get past these initial side effects because it takes time to change the neurotransmitters in the brain. She also talks to Lindsay about a possible bipolar disorder and whether or not she had any symptoms of that. So poor reactions to the medications could indicate bipolar disorder. That's one of the things the defense attorneys talked about. Now, if you give an SSRI to a bipolar person, it can cause issues. So this doctor is recognizing that potential problem and is now addressing it with Lindsay. She was assessed, but the doctor said she clearly was not bipolar. She did not meet the criteria. She had the bi, but not the polar, which is not right. I don't know, but she had, she had the depression, but she did not have the other side. She didn't have the euphoria. The doctor said you look typically for like seven days of euphoria with high energy, with grandiosity, with increased risk-taking behaviors, pressured speech. She talked so much. She can't even stop them. That kind of thing. She just had none of these symptoms. She just didn't have any symptoms of the other side of bipolar. And any event at this point, South Shore was really managing her medical care. So Dr. Tuffs is trying to help, but she sees herself in the secondary role now, given that Lindsay has gone to South Shore as well. And in fact, she had an appointment the next day with South Shore at this point. She did talk about limotrojean, lmitol, and whether or not that was something she might be interested in taking. But once again, this was just a discussion with her. She wasn't going to prescribe it because she was going to this other thing. They discussed a possible partial hospitalization program, one that she could go to every day for a period, as long as she needed. It wouldn't be a place where she was locked up. It wouldn't be a place where she would spend the night, but somewhere she could go to get a lot of sort of more intensive therapy. And Dr. Tuffs had recommended one at Brookline, but Lindsay obviously never did that. So we know that she goes to South Shore, but she still doesn't end her relationship with Dr. Tuffs. Later that month, right after Christmas on December 26, Lindsay sees Dr. Tuffs again and she says that she's having a rough time. Valium and Cerequil had helped with the sleep, but she reported no suicidal plans that she was feeling hopeless and she did have some suicidal ideations, though no plans. And she had a fear of not getting any better. Mass general had offered inpatient plan for her at McLean. At that time, she had turned them down. She thought the depression was related to the Cerequil, but that was Dr. Tuffs' observation. But Dr. Tuffs observed that Lindsay seemed less depressed than last time, so she wasn't really sure about that. So the plan was for Lindsay to go to women in infants program. And she decided to put Lindsay on a limit doll at 25 milligrams, which is the lowest dose and to plan to taper her volume. I was going to say it really seems like, despite what we've been told, Dr. Tuffs is really trying to both bring Lindsay off some of these drugs that maybe aren't working, but also figure out something that's going to work for her, something that's going to help this issue that she has. And this is a really good point because I'm getting an appreciation from Dr. Tuffs' testimony that unlike say, I think the patient always has some say into the medications that they take, right? Like whether you're allergic to penicillin and whether you have a nausea response to some sorts of opioids, they take that into account. But typically it's like, if you need an antibiotic, they may change the type of antibiotic, like you're allergic to penicillin. Okay, we'll give you another type of antibiotic, but you need an antibiotic, so we're going to give you one. Whereas when it comes to like mental illness treatments, you can see that Dr. Tuffs in a lot of ways is constrained in what she can do because she can offer and explain the effects or non-effects, the certain drugs will take, but Lindsay's refusing to take them so there's not much she can do. She's not going to prescribe something and have these pills hang out there if her patient has said, I'm not going to take that. I'm too scared to take it. So she's not going to give her a bottle of 20 pills if that's the case. So this is really interesting because you can see there doesn't seem to be a lot of her pushing drugs. There's a lot of her explaining the options, and it appears that Lindsay is really driving the train on the medications here. So on January 6th, 2023, Dr. Tuffs learned that Lindsay had just been discharged from McLean and that Lindsay continued to feel depressed and she thought Cerequal was to blame. So she went to McLean to taper off that Cerequal. She was taking Trasadone out of Anne, remember that out of Anne? She was supposed to taper off of two months earlier and Melatonin. They were all low doses, but she was still taking those. Lindsay reported no suicidal or homicidal ideations. Only side effects she felt was what she thought was at a van wearing off when she was more anxious. She reported feeling numb and Dr. Tuffs was concerned about this ongoing depression. So the plan was to increase the Trasadone to 150 milligrams as she had tolerated that particular drug and to monitor if the depression would get better without the Cerequal. Now Dr. Tuffs were described Lindsay as deteriorating. She seemed stronger, it seemed like this anxiety was stronger than it had been and the only three options she seemed were a little worse than before. Now nothing led her to think that Lindsay was a danger to herself or others and she didn't I think that is section two. and 12 involuntary admins was necessary at this time. - And once again, Adavann comes back as Alice pointed out and you have Lindsey who seems to be saying that she feels fine when she's on the Adavann but when it begins to wear off, that's when she becomes more anxious. And I'm just, I'm really curious about that. I'm curious if we'll go more into Adavann. - I want someone to tell you, yeah, I hope they do, but also if you're in the medical field, I don't know a lot about Adavann. I didn't do a lot of prosecutions about dependency to Adavann. So I don't understand actually what dependency on it is like or what withdrawal is like. - If she was taking a lot of Adavann and she was taking it regularly as opposed to as needed when she had some sort of anxiety attack or whatever you wanna call it, is that a problem? I don't know and we haven't heard testimony as to that. Other than this doctor saying, Adavann is not a drug you wanna take for a long period of time. So I'm curious about that because maybe that tells us something about what happened. So that's a big question I have and I want to know more about that. - By the way, I'm seeing that it's supposed to be intended for such short term use as it shouldn't be taken beyond two weeks to maybe months at the most. So it really is very short term use. - And I don't know exactly when she went on Adavann for the first time would have to go back and look. She was trying to taper back in November. - Right, she was trying to taper off of it in October. - But I'm trying to see when she started it. October 21st, Adavann as needed for severe anxiety. That's when it started. That's when she first took Adavann. - Okay, so it's two months later now. - And now we're in January. And she was supposed to taper off of it back in November and she's still on it. That just seems like an issue to me, but I guess we'll see if there's-- - And that would be consistent if she was given it in October. Two weeks or so is kind of the recommended time period to take it, so tapering in November would fit into that schedule. - I also know the question I have is how much she was drinking at this time? 'Cause remember in September, she's drinking a couple drinks a night at least. - Which may mean a bottle a night. - Now maybe she has stopped entirely when she started taking these drugs 'cause I don't think many of these drugs react well with alcohol, but that's another question. I mean, these are things we just haven't heard of any evidence on yet, and we'll just have to see. - That's really interesting. - Out of van withdrawal symptoms include anxiety and insomnia at the top two symptoms. - That was interesting. Okay, so she is in this deteriorating condition, whatever that means, but she seems a little worse than she did before, which is not great 'cause it's January 6th and she's just coming out of McLean. You also wonder that now I'm just speculating, I hate to even speculate, but no, she wanted to leave McLean early. Was she able to take out of van while she was in McLean? Or were they allowing her to take out of van? I'm not sure. It's another question, maybe. - She was supposed to be off of it 'cause she was on the Benadryl. - Is that what it was? - Yeah. - Okay. - She was supposed to be off of it that night that she was gonna leave. - So January 9th, 2023, she's back with Dr. Tufts only three days later. The trazodone apparently had helped, but she was still getting rebound anxiety from out of van, which I think is what Alice was just talking about as you're coming off of out of van, you're getting anxious about it. She said her mood was okay, she was not able to cry, but she was able to laugh. She had no thoughts of homicidal or suicidal ideation, no signs of psychosis. She was still depressed, even off of Sarah Quail, which convinced Dr. Tufts that she'd been right from the beginning that it wasn't Sarah Quail causing the depression. They talked about well butrin when she had taken before and amitriptyly, they did not describe any of these at the time as they had decided on volume to help get her off of out of van. We gotta get her off of out of van. So now we're talking about volume to help do that. Later on, she emailed about ketamine therapy. Dr. Tufts actually thought this could be a pretty good option for her given that nothing else was working, but it was hard to get it covered by insurance and she needed to show that she had tried four different antidepressants. In the email, she said she was depressed and desperate for something to quickly get her out of this. She was tired of being depressed. She was ready not to be depressed anymore and the doctor said, look, ketamine is a reasonable thought but she did not feel like they were quite there yet. Now this is January 9th. Once again, Lindsay's obviously having some issues but she's not saying they are these serious as they were apparently. - So on January 16th, Lindsay saw Dr. Tufts again. Dr. Tufts reported that Lindsay's mood was still low, still depressed. Lindsay reported she could get out of bed and take care of basics with herself and her baby but the bonding with Callan felt forced. She said she had no ideations, no signs of psychosis and that they discussed volume taper so that she wouldn't have to take a drug for sleep. They agreed to a plan and they decided to try ammetryptoline an older antidepressant which she prescribed at 10 milligrams the lowest dose. - A lot of you probably take ammetryptoline for headaches. It's a common migraine medication. - So she comes and sees Dr. Tufts, the day before the murders on January 23rd. Dr. Tufts says that her mood and affect her depressed and flat. They tried the ammetryptoline and there were no side effects so she was doing all right. She was a little more anxious and she had a little bit of a decreased appetite. She was now tapered down to two milligrams of volume. It appeared that Lindsay had no motivation. She had to force herself to get out of bed and out of the house. She still says she had no suicidal or homicidal ideations and she had no signs of psychosis as reported by Dr. Tufts. And in general, there was no change about her. Now her mental condition from what Dr. Tufts had previously seen. She reported that Lindsay's insight was still poor. This is something that we'd seen since, I think, at least November, over attribution to the medication for things like depression and she said that everything was appropriate across the board. The plan was to increase that ammetryptoline since she seemed to tolerate it well. Now throughout all of her treatment, Dr. Tufts recommended that Lindsay attend therapy because she said the best response to something like this is both therapy and medication. - So that was the end for today. And I mean, I think the defense has a lot of work to do on cross-examination because the story they've told this jury was not reflected in Jennifer Tufts' care of Lindsay. It seemed like Jennifer was very thoughtful. She was working with her. She was there whenever Lindsay needed her to be there. She's trying to taper off of drugs, particularly the ones that have bad side effects. When Lindsay reported side effects, she moved from that to another thing. The problem with Lindsay is she's also doing her own thing out there. I mean, she is going to these other providers and getting other medications. And the out of hand is something that she just won't let go of. Now, it is interesting. I mean, this is a doctor who saw her the day before this happened. And just Lindsay is not reporting any of the things one might expect to see in someone who is going to have a psychotic event the next day. It doesn't mean she didn't have one, but we're not seeing the evidence of it necessarily. And I'll just say this. I don't know that the American medical system or any medical system provides appropriate psychiatric care. But if anybody got it, Lindsay did. I mean, it's hard for me to think there are all these people out there getting good psychiatric care and Lindsay fell through the cracks somehow. I just don't think that happened. She lived down the street from her parents and her mom and her sister. She had a lot of family around who were all involved. She had a husband who was very involved, knew about her prescribing, her worries seemed like was asking the right questions. I think he was the one who insisted on an in-person meeting instead of just virtual. Dr. Tuff seemed to really care and really know Lindsay's history. And I was very impressed with her testimony in terms of the type of doctor she was to Lindsay. And that doesn't mean Lindsay didn't have a psychotic break, wasn't in psychosis at the time. It could just be that there just really was no helping her given various things that are combining here. That may well be the case. But unless we get some bombshells on Monday during cross, I am now no longer thinking this is an example of someone who was failed by medicine. And that's why this happened. I just, I don't see that in how she was treated and the treatment she got. So honestly, don't know how important that is. - I think it's very important. Like not only was she not ignored, like they asked all the questions every time it's in the notes. Like do you have suicidal ideas? She's never stopped asking these types of questions. But very importantly here, whether it was the best care, what not, all these things, the important thing, which I think a lot of people do not get in the medical system and certainly not in mental health, is they responded to everything she was saying. If she said she had anxiety, they immediately the care plan was adjusted for that. If she said she couldn't sleep, everyone around her was immediately adjusting to what she said. Now a lot of this has to be self-reported. They can't hear the voices in her head that she never reported. They can't know what she's going through. They can't know whether she's slept the night before. So they do have to go on what she's telling them. But I will note what I've seen across the board for her treatment so far, pre-murder. Every time she brings up something, they try to address it. It may not have worked, but they didn't say, "Well, good luck." Like you're not tapered off, let's try this. Let's do this instead. You're not sleeping, let's do this instead. Hey, do therapy. Make that appointment right now while we're sitting here together. Let's see that you can make that appointment together. Let me review your notes and see how you're doing over there. You went to McLean? Okay, this is how it's happening. Hey, you found another doctor? Just letting you know, best practices, you should have one doctor look through all of these things. So as with all medical care especially with mental health. The doctor is not the honestly not even the one in the driver's seat. You have to be a willing patient in order to go along with the plan. And she was not ignored. This was an incredibly responsive team of professionals she had around her. Did it seem to be helping? No, I agree with you, but I don't think it's for lack of trying. All right guys, this has been a long one, but these were two days pretty full. Hopefully going forward every day is going to have a lot of really good information that we actually want to spend some time on. Wouldn't that be nice? And maybe that's what's going to happen. Maybe this trial is really speeding up and now we're really getting into the nitty-gritty. We know that Lindsey Clancy killed her kids. That happened. Everyone has admitted that. She just scribed it in detail including what she told her children and she killed them. The question remains what was her mental state at the time? And I think we're going to continue to get more information on that as they move forward. Interesting. I am sure we're going to hear from Dr. McAllister or therapist McAllister about the therapy sessions. Interested in that. And of course we'll hear from the South Shore folks who treated her. All right. Well look, it's been long. We're not going to share any emails today just because we've gone so long, but thank you so much. Those of you who've been sending them. They've been incredible insight from so many of you. We really appreciate it. If you have thoughts on this case, shoot us an email prosecutor's pod at gmail.com. Add prosecutor's pod for all your social media. Join us on the gallery where the discussion is going crazy on this case. Follow us on Instagram, TikTok, all of it. Xat prosecutor's pod. If you want to watch us record these early, add free and pretty much in live real-time response to this. This testimony happened a few hours ago. You can join patreon and watch us record these. You also get the edited episodes early and add free. You also can get episodes early and add free on Apple subscriptions. You can watch edited videos of us record these if you go and join our sub-stack, the True Crime Times, Google the prosecutors, True Crime Times. You'll find it no problem. Glad to see so many of you there. And obviously, there's also a lot of really great articles on there too that you can read. All right, Alice. Anything else you want to say before we sign off? I know we've already said a lot. No, we're really getting into the meat of this. I'm really interested to see cross-examination on Monday. And as always, we'll be here to recap it for you guys. All right, guys. Let's win a pleasure. As always, we will see you soon. But until then, I'm Brett. And I'm Alice. We are The Prosecutors. Hey, that is, um, that is, uh, I don't forget. Oh, we call him Allison. I was like, what do we call him? Not Brett. And he poor other children of ours. Only Brett and he's name really has stuck. But he's in a stage where he greets everyone with, Hey, it's very funny. It's very funny. Okay, what a day. What, what are two days? We kind of recorded yesterday, honestly. Yeah, it's going to be a long episode. I know. It's okay. We got it. That's why I, that's why I figured if we do it tonight, people have time to listen to it over the weekend. Honestly. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. I mean, looking, if it weren't for Sophie, I'd wear the same shirt every day. That's true. That's true. I can't get away with that apparently because some people pay attention to that kind of thing. But yeah, no, it's, it's true. All right, all right. I don't know. I, I, the borough. [Music] Hello, and welcome to Pluto, fo. If you know the name of the movie you'd like to see, just stream it for free on Pluto TV. We're all your blockbuster favorites are landing all summer law. Catch anchor man, the legend of Ron Burgundy. Fantastic. The Matrix trilogy. Welcome to the real world. Mean girls. Side by. I'm the key in the world. And so much more for showtimes. Press nothing. They're free 24/7. That is so fast. On Pluto TV, stream now. Pay never.