The moment a body is found, the clock starts ticking. Forty-eight hours before the trail goes cold. From A&E and Crime House, this is the official podcast from the famous True Crime series, The First Forty-eight. I'm Carter Roy. Every Thursday, I revisit a landmark homicide investigation in depth with long-form storytelling built for your ears. Listen to and follow The First Forty-eight on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or Wherever You Listen to Podcasts. I'm Brett, and I'm Alice, and we are The Prosecutors. Today, on The Prosecutors, on January 24th, 2023, Lindsey Clancy strangled her three children to death with exercise bands, but is she criminally responsible for their deaths? Hello, everybody and welcome to this episode of The Prosecutors I'm Brett, and I'm joined as always by my trepidatious co-host, Alice. Hi, Brett. I don't want to do this case, we've talked about this. Murders of children, especially by their own parents, is incredibly hard to do, but this is an incredibly important topic and also legally very interesting. Of course, as we're recording this, the criminal trial is going to start tomorrow in Massachusetts, so you guys have asked and we are delivering. Yeah, back when this happened, it's hard to believe we've been around so long, but back when this happened, we talked about it a little bit when we did a few episodes on criminal insanity. Whether or not someone is competent to stand trial, whether or not someone is legally responsible for their actions, and that seems like a long time ago now, and it really was a long time ago, but we've come to a point where there's going to be a trial in this case, and I don't know exactly what's going to happen. There are a few things I want to lay out. We're going to cover this kind of in real time, so you probably can expect a couple episodes a week at least from us on this case, we're going to cover the trials, it goes, we'll cover it on the main feed, kind of like we did with a Murder case, but we'll just have to see. It's Massachusetts, as we all know from the Karen Reed trial, they don't exactly like to spend a lot of time in court in Massachusetts, so my understanding is they are going to try to go from nine to four, which doesn't seem like a full court date to me, but whatever that's what they're going to try and do, apparently they're taking Tuesdays off. I don't know if that's going to be every week, but apparently that is this week. So we'll just have to see, we will do episodes as it seems appropriate. This is a good time to be on Patreon because we'll be recording in the evenings and then releasing the episodes the next day or the day after that, so if you want to get sort of instantaneous coverage, and it will depend on what happens in court. Those of you who've ever watched a trial or if you're lawyers, you know, there are some days in a trial where almost nothing happens, where the witness is or really just people who are there to lay out basic factual predicates. There's not a lot to talk about. The core of this case really is going to be the expert testimony, and we're going to talk a lot about that. A couple things, I want to say just going into this because I think this is important. We're going to cover this case. There's already been a lot of discussion on the gallery about it, and I think it's been really respectful. Love seeing that because this is the kind of case where we need to give each other a lot of grace because people are going to have a lot of very strong feelings on this case. It's going to raise some really intense emotions, so don't jump on people because I say something that you find initially offensive. They are working through this just like everybody else. Their criminal case, people are going to view this trial and a lot of the testimony through the lens of their own experience. That's fine. It's not a bias. It's our own individual viewpoints that shape how we see. This is why the jury is made up of not one person, but 12, 14 more people because there's going to be lots of experiences that are going to shade what it means to be a mother, what it means to suffer from mental illness. Seeking help, all of these sorts of things, there's going to be a lot of, like Brett said, high tensions around this, and it's okay to view the testimony through the different life experiences you may have had. But with that said, keep that in mind as you have these discussions because if you think you're just attacking like someone's analysis of a testimony, it may go much deeper than that be taken as attacking someone's own experiences. So just, I want to kind of hold that there because again, like I've said, a mother emirdering her child, children at that, and that's not disputed. She's admitted her children's lives ended at her hands is going to obviously draw a lot, a lot of intense emotions as it should because that is the world turned upside down. So this episode is meant to give you some general background on the facts of the case and what's happening is you go into the trial. There's a lot here. So this actually, it may take more than one episode. I thought this would be an easy peasy one episode than we did the outline. When Brett said to do this, I was like, yeah, the trial hasn't even started. We don't have the testimony, but as Brett pointed out to me, there have actually been two civil lawsuits filed in this case by both Lindsey and her husband Patrick. And we always say civil lawsuits, man, that's actually where a lot of the meat is because you're putting forth, especially if you're the plaintiff, so Lindsey Clancy is the plaintiff in that case. She's putting forward her story in her words and her evidence because she is the burden as the plaintiff. So the civil lawsuits actually lay a lot of information out there before the trials even started for the criminal case. And we're going to link these two complaints on our website. It's interesting because one is hers and one is her husband's, both against various medical professionals who were involved in this. I will say this, a lot of the facts that we're going to discuss today come from public reporting and from these two complaints, a lot of the public reporting comes from these two complaints. The complaints obviously are shaded in favor of Lindsey Clancy and against the medical professionals who are being sued. So just keep that in mind, we're going to go through this, but this is probably the sort of best story that the defense could tell. This is essentially the story that the defense wants you to believe coming out of trial. Now you may listen to this and you may come out of this thinking, man, there's no way she's guilty. Look at everything that happened. That's fine, but I would just say listen to the trial as well because the prosecution obviously has a story they want to tell. They're going to tell that story at trial and it may not sound exactly like the one that we're going to lay out for you that, as I said, is heavily influenced by the civil lawsuits by Lindsey Clancy and her husband who is standing by her, who says that the woman who killed his three children is not the Lindsey that he knew and plans to testify in her defense. So we're going to see that happen. That will be a big moment in the trial. I am sure. And that's a good thing to note, this civil lawsuit, the purpose of this lawsuit, the complaints by both of them, is to claim malpractice against the medical professionals. So obviously when you're advocating for malpractice, you're going to diminish or show at least the complete diminished capacity of Lindsey Clancy and all the signs that were missed by the medical professionals, whether that's actually what the evidence will show at the criminal trial, keep an open mind. I don't know because the trial hasn't started. And someone asked if Patrick and Lindsey Clancy are together, they are not together, Patrick has moved on, I believe he's either married or is in a serious wish from someone else. I think he's married. And I think he may even have children. Obviously he's. I think they might not be as biological as I could be wrong about that. That may be the case. There's a New Yorker story that we're going to link to as well, which is sort of from his perspective. And he talks about this a little bit. But I can't remember that detail because frankly it wasn't that important to me in the grand scheme of things. I mean, I want that man to be happy and to move on and to have a good life. But what he's doing or not doing doesn't really have much bearing on this, but it is certainly the case they are not together and he is nevertheless going to testify in her defense. Okay, with that, I think we just dive into this story. So from the outside, Patrick and Lindsey Clancy appeared to have built an ideally life in the seaside town of Ducksbury, Massachusetts, Patrick worked in technology while Lindsey was a respected labor and delivery nurse in Massachusetts, General Hospital, who always dreamed of a large family. You know, one of those striking facts just right off the bat about this case. Lindsey Clancy was not just a nurse. She was a labor and delivery nurse. And I don't know.
But when I learned that, I was kind of surprised, but nevertheless, we'll see how that influences the trial as it goes forward. And Patrick and Lindsay had been blessed with just that. They had three young children, five-year-old Korra, three-year-old Dawson and baby Kalen. And friends and relatives described Lindsay as an affectionate, devoted mother. After Kalen's birth in May 2022, her mental health deteriorated dramatically. She developed debilitating anxiety, depression, and insomnia, and repeatedly saw it help from psychiatrist, emergency rooms, crisis services, and to hospitals. Over four months, she was prescribed 13 different psychiatric medications, as doctors struggled to identify and treat what was happening to her. On January 24th, 2023, Lindsay sent Patrick out to pick up the children's medicine at a CVS and then take out for dinner. While he was gone, she strangled all three children with exercise bands and then attempted to kill herself by cutting her neck and wrists and jumping from a second story window. This fall and the slicing of herself didn't ultimately kill her, but the jump paralyzed her permanently. Korra and Dawson died later that evening at the hospital and Kalen died three days later. As to these facts, there's no mystery and no dispute. Lindsay does not deny killing the children, but she does maintain that she was suffering from postpartum psychosis and she was obeying a commanding voice that told her to kill the children and herself. Prosecutors contend that she deliberately created an opportunity to be alone with the children and that she carefully planned their murders. More than three years after the killings. A jury has finally been seated in Plymouth Superior Court, an opening statement in the trial that will determine whether Lindsay Clancy is a murderer or was legally insane, our schedule to begin Monday, July 27th. So as we record this tomorrow, and as I said earlier, we're going to try and cover this as much as we can going forward because this is a case that has really divided people. A lot of people have asked us to cover this. I think it's something we can bring some expertise to, why the prosecution is doing what it's doing, why the defense is doing, what it's doing. And before we even get started, I want to comment on that because I have seen people say they don't even think the Commonwealth should have brought a case. And I would just say that is pre-judging this and I understand where you're coming from, but we have three dead children. We have a mother who admits that she killed them. This is exactly the kind of case where you want a jury to weigh this and decide whether or not she was not mentally capable of conforming her actions to the law or whether or not this is murder. So I don't think there's even an option here not to have this trial. I think if you're ever going to have a trial, this is a great place to do it. It's not that uncommon to have these kinds of trials. It's not that uncommon for people in cases where insanity is part of it to just go ahead and admit basically all the factual basis of the crime. And then it just becomes over sanity or insanity. We're going to talk about some legal developments in this case, sort of interesting. The defense tried to limit this trial and the judge had none of that. So this is going to be a full trial with a lot of discussion of what she did, question about whether or not that's more prejudicial than probative in this kind of case. But we'll talk about that as we go along for now. Let's talk about the timeline. So summer 2013, Lindsay Musgrove meets Patrick Clancy while she is studying to be a nurse. Lindsay wanted a large family and she would marry Patrick in 2016 while working as a labor and delivery nurse. On December 24th, 2017, Cora Marie Clancy, their first child, is born on Christmas Eve. Shortly thereafter, Lindsay returns to work. Albeit at a reduced work schedule, she suffered from anxiety. At one point while on shift, this is sort of an example of this anxiety that she's experiencing. And I want to note one other thing. We had an episode with Mama Psychologist on legal briefs. If you haven't heard that yet, worth listening to because they talk about this postpartum anxiety, which Lindsay seemed to be suffering from. At one point, she's on shift and she had set it up where she could actually monitor the baby from the nurse's station while she's on shift. And one time she sees Cora crying on the monitor and she tries to call Patrick. Patrick doesn't answer and when he doesn't answer, she calls the police who then perform a welfare check. Obviously, the baby was fine. He missed her call for whatever reason. I think he had actually already even addressed whatever was wrong with Cora. But that's an example of how Lindsay is suffering from some pretty severe anxiety. But anything approaching what's going to happen later, but she is having some anxiety after the birth of her first child. And this is obviously after her first child, a lot of this you can imagine falling into the bucket of typical, although difficult postpartum, right? Always difficult to go back to work, especially with your first child, seeing your baby cry. All of these things are difficult. So we're going to work through this timeline, but I think a lot of people have anxiety. Others and fathers as they go back to work, but we're already seeing kind of actions that are outside the bell curve of normal, calling the police when clearly the baby isn't alone. Now early 2019, Lindsay becomes convinced that Cora has a genetic abnormality based on a blue vein that's visible on the bridge of Cora's nose. She does online research and she even orders an at-home genetic test. But despite this anxiety about maybe a genetic abnormality for Cora, she is planning to have her next child. In September of 2018, Dawson was born just as Cora turns 21 months old. So pretty close in age. Now, once again, Lindsay suffers from postpartum anxiety. She begins seeing a talk therapist specifically for this anxiety. And Patrick says Lindsay in the therapist, quote, "didn't really vibe." And so that talk therapy apparently doesn't continue for very long. Here accounts say that she managed the symptoms through exercise, meditation, routines, and some therapy. There's no public indication that she was taking psychiatric medication, hospitalized suicidal psychotic, or unable to care for the children during this period. And all this is very normal. Like this is the kind of stuff we always talk about when we do these true crime cases and you're always going back, trying to figure out whether or not things that otherwise everyone would just say ordinary, are actually really significant. And we see this in every case when you have a moment where something happens, think of the Ellen Greenberg case. Every word she said has been analyzed to determine whether or not her state of mind at the time of her death indicates suicide. The same thing here. I don't think anything we've said of to this point is outside the realm of what a lot of women and maybe even a lot of men have experienced after you have children. You do have anxiety. You worry about everything. You lay in bed at night trying to decide whether or not you can hear the baby breathing. I mean, that's something I would do. Like, do I hear the baby breathing? Can I hear the baby breathing? And then you hear the baby moving. Okay. Everything's fine. Right? I mean, that's the kind of thing you do. Her anxiety seems a little bit more extreme than the average person, but nothing crazy. I hate to even use the word extreme. It's not that out of bounds. She's talking to a therapist, like a lot of people do, no big deal. Everything seems fine and she's still working as a labor and delivery nurse going into 2020. And she's a committed parent. She's active in online parenting groups. She regularly reads books on parenting, but things aren't perfect. She describes motherhood. She has a series of journals, most of which she keeps on her phone. I'm sure some of this will definitely come in a trial. And she describes motherhood as all-consuming. She finds Dawson to be much more difficult than Korah. And let me just tell you, is anyone who had a daughter first and then had a son? That's just the way it is. You have a daughter and you think, wow, this is so easy. We can do this. Let's have another one. Why even wait? Oh, we're having a boy. Great. Now we're going to have a girl and a boy. And then you have the boy. And you love the boy. Boy's great. But man, it's nothing like the girl. I mean, are you experiencing this in reverse? That's why I laughed at you when you had like one and I had two boys and you're like, what are you complaining about, Alice? This is so easy. And I was like, all right, bear, all right. And it also is personality of children, right? My first one was collic and nothing to do with whether he was a boy or not. But he was collic, which man he cried non-stop 20 hours a day for about four or five months. I thought I lost my mind. So my second one, who was probably actually pretty difficult, also a boy, but he wasn't collic. And I was like, easiest thing ever. But I mean, your brain changes, for sure, especially if your first one is a relatively easy child who eats and sleeps without too much intervention. Yes. These are important things. So at one point in a parenting post, she makes one of these online groups. She calls Dawson, quote, "the most difficult human I have ever encountered." That's. I can. I feel that. I feel that. However, there's no evidence at this time that she's suffering from anything like post partum depression or postpartum psychosis. This seems to be just typical adjusting to having two children. The second of whom is a little bit more difficult than the first was. And in fact, Lindsay is excited about having another child. And this is something that's important because I feel like people. And I get it. You want to. trying to rationalize this, looking for someone to blame. A lot of people are blaming Patrick. They try and relate this to the Andrew Yates case, which as far as I'm concerned, the Andrew Yates case is almost suede generous. People keep bringing it up. It's not helpful, frankly. It's not helpful because the laws are different where she's from, it's not helpful because her personal situation was different, her husband was different, there's a lot going on. In this case, it seems to be undisputed that Lindsay really wants more children. This is not a situation where she's suffering from postpartum psychosis after having a second child and her husband is forcing her putting a lot of pressure on her to have a third child. She's having relatively normal experiences with her children and she really wants to have more. She wants to have that large family. That's what she's looking for and she's excited despite the difficulties she's having to have another child. - One thing I just wanna, I really do wonder if either the prosecution or the defense is going to make this, I don't know, it'll be an interesting kind of overarching theme at trial about the fact that she's a labor and delivery nurse. In some senses, I may think, oh, she has so much knowledge of the medical system, but here you see like she's maybe hyper aware of things that the probability is very low, like this genetic disability. Maybe she knows enough for to really cause anxiety. Maybe because she's labor and delivery, she sees way more births than the regular person. And maybe she sees more trauma because people end up in hospitals for longer periods of time if they have a difficulty and she's more likely to encounter that than someone who's there for one night with an easy birth and the baby goes home. And so maybe she's encountering more traumatic situations which may or may not have no idea, feed into what she is reportedly experiencing. I've wondered about this. And I know everyone, the first thing they think when they see that she's a labor and delivery nurse is like shock. Whether it's that, then certainly that means that she couldn't possibly be at fault because she's someone who's so in the know and sought all the help and the medications and whatnot. And so if she's so in the know, she couldn't be at fault here. But I also wonder how much of this is feeding into her psychosis. - That's a really good question. I don't know, I'll be interested to see. The good thing about having a trial, I feel like in a lot of cases we never have a trial. When we just have these questions and we ask them and there's no answer, a lot of evidence is gonna be put on in this case. And it wouldn't surprise me if some of that. The defense is really going to have to build a strong case here. They really are, they are up against it. What she did is so horrific and it's so horrible and convincing a jury is going to require a full story. They gotta lay it all out. This is not a, we're not even gonna put it on a case 'cause the state didn't meet their burden. That's not gonna be what happens in this case. And maybe we'll see lots of evidence on various things that could have influenced her. On May 26, 2022, Kallen is born. I wanna say something about Kallen, Kallen? I don't know how it's pronounced right now. We're gonna find out. We'll find out at trial. When they do the trial. But Amy, maybe not 'cause it's Massachusetts so they may have their way. That's a good point and it may end up being like, Alec Murdoch. I keep hearing people pronounce it different ways. It is pronounced different ways. If you gotta like pronunciation guides, depending on who you are, whether you're pronouncing it in the true Gaelic sense or more of the American sense. There are a couple in my son's classes who would have been born around 2022 and they're pronounced Kallen. - Is this a really popular name? From my period? - I don't think it's a super popular, but it's not unpopular. - Well, I'm gonna go, given that you have personal experience with it, I'm gonna go with Kallen until-- - Until tomorrow, we're gonna figure that tomorrow. - Hey, Kallen is born. Lindsey goes jogging on the morning she enters labor. Kallen is born later that day. The family calls him Happy Kallen because of his easy going disposition. May to June 2022. This period is now very disputed between various malpractice lawsuits. It's the descriptions that we read in the media because there is this question. When did this start? When did whatever led to this horrific incident begin? And that's going to be something that probably will be disputed. Patrick, in his lawsuit, he says that Lindsey displayed no psychiatric symptoms during the first four weeks after Kallen's birth. I am under the impression that that would be a little unusual for her not to have any symptoms. My understanding, and we're gonna learn a lot. We're all gonna learn a lot together about post-partum psychosis. My understanding is that it certainly can develop as time goes on and can become worse in the months. It's not, for instance, the worst it's ever going to be the day after the baby is born. But I think it would be a little unusual if she had no symptoms whatsoever. And Lindsey's on lawsuit characterizes this period as a period of highly productive energetic period. And not a normal energetic period. I don't know how you have a normal energetic period with your third child, but really something closer to hypomania, something that you see associated with things like maybe underlying bipolar disorder or maybe just some sort of developing mental illness. A lot of times, the first stage is hypomania, which then develops into something else. She sort of describes it as that. And look, that obviously wasn't diagnosed at the time. None of this was diagnosed at the time. It was one thing to remember. We're talking about post-partum psychosis so that we know she has it. The reason we think she had it is because she murdered her three children for apparently no reason. None of this was ever diagnosed. This was not a diagnosed. It was just a period where she had lots of energy, where she was working out of the time and going for runs with three kids and having just had one. So we're gonna have to see how the evidence comes in on this. - So that brings us to July 2022. Lindsey says she's doing better than after the earlier births. But for what it's worth, in her own words, right after the other births was pretty rough. So relatively, maybe she thinks it's better or maybe it's hopeful thinking. But Lindsey writes publicly that she's fearing better after a calendar's birth than she did following the births of Cora and Dawson. She attributes this to maintaining a strict routine involving exercise, nutrition, personal development, and a positive mindset. One thing to note about this, I agree those are all things that, like, therapists to recommend to help beat anxiety or depression. This is self-reported, whether she was actually doing this or she knew that she was supposed to do this, I think we'll come into play at trial. Now this is particularly important because it is direct evidence that Lindsey herself said that the first two postpartum periods had involved some difficulties, even if she did not describe them as severe psychiatric episodes. But her own words are describing the first two postpartum periods, it's pretty difficult. And she and Patrick reportedly ran a 5K during the summer, so like a few months after Callen was born, maybe indicating that she is in fact exercising. She's getting out, she's doing the things that you try to do to better your mood, I guess, is a good way to put it, but she's relatively healthy at least physically. (upbeat music) - Yeah, as if you're like me, it's not that unusual to finish lunch and then find yourself reaching for a snack an hour later. Sometimes you notice cravings taking over. Even when you're trying to eat healthy, in fact, that's when they happen the most. And that's the problem, pendulum metabolic daily was designed to help solve. Pendulum metabolic daily is a science-backed, probiotic design to support your body's natural GOP1 response, help you feel fuller, longer, experience fewer cravings and make it easier to stay on track with your health goals. Just one capsule a day with food, some customer support noticing fewer cravings and more energy in as little as a week, though individual results can vary. 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probably going to find it good as new for a fraction of the price on Poshmark. Poshmark is the leading fashion resell marketplace shaped by real people in real style. Millions of new and pre-loved items from daily wardrobe staples to vintage and luxury fashion. Archive worthy pieces you thought you missed forever. Current essentials, one of a kind vintage finds. It's all there. And when you're ready for a closet refresh, you can earn real money selling the pieces you're ready to part with, reaching more than 80 million users on the platform. New deals and styles are listed every day, so don't wait. Download the Poshmark app and use code Prosecutors when you sign up to get $10 off your first purchase. We're shopped now at Poshmark.com/Posecutors and get $10 off your first purchase. That's Poshmark, Poshmark.com/Posecutors. So I think to anyone looking at this, they would have seen Lindsay as sort of that mom you kind of hate. She's got three kids and she's out running a 5K, the summer after having the third one. Oh my goodness, that Lindsay, she's got a full time job, she's taking great care of herself. Look at her, you can barely tell she had a baby, right? I mean, that's probably what people were saying. There's certainly no indication of any trouble. That starts to change, though, as the summer comes to an end, we get into August. And according to Lindsay, that energetic period, that hypomania, if that's what it was, ends and it ends abruptly. She goes from having all this energy, from getting up in the morning and going up for long runs to barely being able to do anything. She starts experiencing that anxiety she's had before. But in addition to that, she's also experiencing depression. And as most of you know, depression, if you've ever experienced depression, even at a low level, depression is one of those things, it just knocks you out. You can't do anything and you get depressed by the fact you can't do anything. You have no motivation, which makes you even more depressed because you feel like you're not being productive. And she has that. And she has the insomnia. She's tired all the time, but she can't sleep. And so she's both not being able to sleep. And she's exhausted. She has all these different things coming together. It's the curse of depression. It brings with it all of these seemingly contradictory symptoms. In an online wellness group that she was a part of, she says that she's fallen out of her morning routine altogether, which doesn't help, right? Make you even more depressed. And that she's quote unquote, definitely struggling. At the same time, Patrick's parental leave has run out. So he's going back to work. And this means Lindsey is increasingly responsible for taking care of the three children. But September, now it's time for Lindsey to go back to work. And she has this whole plan to go back to mass in general. And as that time approaches, her anxiety becomes debilitating. Combined with the depression, she barely can do anything. And she decides to postpone her return to work. Now she starts looking for help. So on approximately September 12th, hard to say exactly when it happens, but based on the reporting in the complaints, she consults psychiatrist, Jennifer Tufts. It's a telehealth deal. That's how she's doing this. And she scores a 23 on the Edinburgh postnatal depression scale. It's not good. 23 is in the severe range. So she is showing she's having some severe depression. At this point, Tufts diagnosis a generalized anxiety disorder and prescribes Zoloft. This is the first and what will be a long string prescriptions. We are going to go through all those prescriptions at some point. Don't worry. But this is the first one. So shortly after seeking this psychiatric help on October 25th, 2022, Lindsey writes in her journal that she quote, sort of resent Korra and Dawson because they prevent her from treating Kallen like her first baby. But she also immediately recognizes that this is unfair to Korra and Dawson. And writes as she wants to feel love and connection with all three children. Obviously hindsight here, everything's going to matter. Everything she writes is going to matter. I think what she's describing here is again, probably something many people feel when they have multiple children. It's hard. Have your attention divided. Now December 20th, 2022, she is evaluated at the center for women's behavioral health at women in infants hospital in providence. So things have gotten so bad. Now she's going to go get evaluated in person. According to the prosecution's description of the records, clinicians conclude that Lindsey does not display symptoms supporting a postpartum depression diagnosis, even though this is like an in person analysis. And this is what's so fascinating about this case. So Lindsey appears to be doing everything that she should do if she's suffering from some sort of depression that could be dangerous for herself or for her children. The center for women's behavioral health at the women in infants hospital. That's a specialist. It's in providence. She's seeking out the very best care. It's like taking your kids to children's hospital and Birmingham. They're in the best possible care they could possibly have. Now when my child was having all of his problems before he was born, we live in Montgomery. The doctors in Montgomery were like, we cannot handle this. You have to go to Birmingham. You got to go to UAB. And it was an absolutely blessing that UAB was located in the state of Alabama an hour and a half down the road. And my wife went by ambulance to UAB and we had the baby the next day. And now he is healthy and wonderful and everything is great. But one of the reasons I absolutely believe is because he was in the hands of the very best people. And we went to the very best people we could find. She is doing that. She's going to the very best people she can find. And they are looking at her and saying, hey, I got some issues, but you don't have postpartum depression. And so she is suing those people nail and others for failing to treat her appropriately. But at the same time, the prosecution in this case is saying, see, we have contemporaneous records that indicate she was not in a situation where her mental condition has deteriorated to the point that she's not responsible for her actions. That's how the prosecution is going to use those records. And it's going to be so interesting to see the doctors and hospitals that treated her are on trial. They are very much on trial in this case. And the defense is going to try and prosecute them for the murder of these children. They're going to say they are ultimately responsible because this woman sought treatment and they did not give her the treatment she needed. The prosecution is going to say the best doctors looked at her at the time. This is not us looking back and saying, can't you tell she truly wasn't crazy? That's not what we're saying. We're saying the best doctors looked at her at the time and said she does not have this condition. Who you going to believe them or whatever person the defense hires. That's what they're going to be saying. And it's going to be so interesting to see how that plays out in trial. I think this is going to be the crux of the criminal trial because it's going to be a month before the murders happen. It's going to be the best in the business. They know her entire background. She's already been diagnosed by a psychiatrist with some postpartum anxiety. So she's coming in not as like a blank slate, but actually with a marker towards, hey, we think she has issues. And this is still their diagnosis after a full evaluation. I think this is going to be fascinating. The cross examination is going to be very intense here. We're going to learn a lot about what's going to happen. It'll be interesting where the prosecution places this within the storytelling of the trial. So despite that evaluation in late December 2022, these civil complaints report that Lindsey has suicidal and homicidal thoughts. So Patrick later, not at the time, but he later tells investigators that Lindsey disclosed suicidal thoughts and thoughts of harming the children in late December. This is one of the most important facts for the defense and potentially for that malpractice case against her providers because even with a diagnosis that does not support postpartum depression or postpartum psychosis, these are very serious things to report. And if he did tell someone this before the murders, that you can imagine is going to be very, very helpful for Patrick and Lindsey in their malpractice suit against the doctors. And let me just say this fact is very much in dispute. In fact, when we did the discussion with mama psychologist on legal briefs, my research up to that point had indicated that she had told Patrick, she had suicidal thoughts, but she had never mentioned having thoughts of harming the children. That that was something that he didn't know about. That may not be true. I don't know exactly what's true here. This is a fact I really want to see. If she's saying I'm having thoughts about harming the children, I mean, that opens all the source of different doors about what should have happened, who should have been advised of that, whether child protective services should have been involved, whether steps should have been taken to separate her from the kids. I mean, I don't know. There's a lot that comes from how forthcoming was she about the things going on in her head a month before the murders. Okay, so let's fast for to January 20th.
On January 1, Lindsey voluntarily admits herself to McLean Hospital, which is a psychiatric facility in Belmont, Massachusetts. She remains there for five days. At discharge, the hospital reportedly determines that she is not an imminent danger to herself or others. Once again, this is something the prosecution emphasizes. They also emphasize that when she's talking to the doctor, she is denying any kind of suicidal or homicidal thoughts. Now one thing I have seen a lot is people say, "When you're in medicine, you know what to say to the doctors to avoid them thinking you're crazy." But I would note, she voluntarily admitted herself. So I don't know why you voluntarily admit yourself and then lie about it, about the thought you're having. Having said that, having voluntarily gone to a lot of doctors and said, "I drink one or two drinks a week, I can appreciate not telling your doctor everything that's going on in your mind," particularly if you feel really bad about it, which I would imagine you would if you're having thoughts, even if they're fleeting, of murdering your children. That is probably not something that is very easy to vocalize, especially if you're a mom. Now the fans contend that regardless of what she was saying or not saying, she was obviously seriously ill and she was released without any kind of diagnosis or treatment plan going forward. Obviously she came in, she stayed for five days and they sent her off into the world with nothing to prevent something tragic from happening in the future. A few days later, Patrick asks her whether she's still having suicidal thoughts and she tells him she is not. January 22nd, 2023, Lindsay, Patrick, Kora, and Dawson all have dinner at the home of Patrick's college friend Kyle Karney. Karney later says that Lindsay appeared fairly normal. Patrick reportedly tells Karney at this dinner that Lindsay's medications aren't working and that she had previously experienced severe benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms. That's going to be a very interesting testimony as well because you can see why it would be helpful for Patrick to say that he has mentioned these problems that he sees ahead of time rather than seeing problems post-talk. Let me also say really interesting thing that arises at this point. We've been talking about post-partum psychosis but there's another question all together. Did Lindsay Clancy have post-partum psychosis or is she just dealing with some depression and some difficulties and then she was given so many drugs that interacted in such a bad way that those drugs cost whatever happened. That is a separate theory that I assume that a fan says going to pursue that it's either some underlying mental issue or whatever underlying mental issue she saw treatment for was then turned into this homicidal mental issue by all the different medications that she was given and the way she was given them. These are two separate theories that I think the defense is going to pursue. On the next day, January 23rd, Lindsay writes in her phone where she keeps her journal that she has "a touch of post-partum anxiety associated with returning to work." The next day is the day that she's going to murder her children. Note that she's not saying I'm really suffering, this is debilitating. It's actually noting something that occurred in her previous post-partums returning to work. I think a lot of people will recognize as a relatively normal feeling to have no matter if you have a diagnosis of post-partum anxiety or depression or psychosis or not to feel some anxiety with going back to work after the birth of a child. Now the next day, January 24th, Lindsay takes one of her children to a pediatric appointment and prosecutors say that she appears calm and appropriate and later she and the children build a snowman outside. This is really interesting because she's not hold up in the house, she's not like the doors and the windows aren't closed in and she isn't neglecting her children. Quite the opposite. Taking one of her children to the doctor when you have more than one child, you're always at the doctorate for something. So she's actively doing the things to take care of the children and she's also being seen by other people other than just her children and her husband and other people who see her, including that friend, Karne and the doctor's office all report her appearing relatively normal. From the outside you can't tell anything is wrong. A 402 that day, Lindsay searches, quote, "kids mirrolax" on her phone and so this is going to be really important for the prosecution in telling their story of how this was not a heat of the moment sort of situation. Hence this is the digital footprint of the planning of what will ultimately result in the murders of her children. Let me just say this, we are all walking through this together as we do so many cases. And whenever there is a horrific crime that defies explanation, many of you out there always trying to figure out how someone could do this, why someone would do this. I mean, I'm thinking of like murder, how could murder kill his son, et cetera, et cetera. Just know none of us, this is my opinion, maybe somebody out there thinks I'm wrong. None of us are ever going to understand how you can build a snowman with your kids in the afternoon and murder them two hours later. You're never going to be able to understand that. I mean, there's no point even trying. The only question here is going to be that ultimately go question, whether or not she is able to conform her behavior to the law at the time of the murders. We're just never going to be able to get ourselves into this. And I say this, I think even people who have unfortunately suffered from some similar mental issues, I feel like they're all different for everybody. Even if you're suffering from the same one, your experience is unique. I don't even know that you can understand how someone could build a snowman with their children and then murder them a few hours later. That is just absolutely inexplicable. And it's really interesting to me that that fact is going to cut different ways for different people. And this is what we talked about sort of the whole like jury thing and how your prior experience is affect how you view things. Some people are going to see that and think, wow, this woman never needs to get out of prison. And some people are going to say, wow, there's no way that woman's saying no sane person could do that. And we're just going to have to see how these kinds of facts play out for the jury in the trial. All right. So she searches for kids Miralax at 413. She searches take out 3V, which is referring to 3V, a restaurant in Plymouth. She checks Apple maps for travel time between the family's home and the restaurant. The prosecution considers this powerful planning evidence. She is calculating how long Patrick will be gone. She is determining how much time she is going to have to carry out the plans she has for the future. This says checking a restaurant's location in travel times, ordinary conduct. Maybe. Maybe if I was planning on going, I could see hitting directions to see how far away it is. If I'm going to send somebody, maybe I'm not thinking about that, but maybe she's more thoughtful. I think the prosecution probably has the better part of this in that by this point, she probably is planning to do this while he's gone. Now, planning doesn't necessarily mean, particularly in this case, as we're going to discuss whenever we get to the legal standard in Massachusetts, which is different than it is everywhere else in the country, not everywhere in the country, but a lot of places. You guys are used to a very different standard. You are used to the standard, which says if you know what you're doing and you know it's wrong, then you are guilty. You are not insane. That is not the standard in Massachusetts. The fact that she planned this and the fact that she's trying to figure out how much time she's going to have to carry it out does not necessarily mean she is not insane under the Massachusetts standard, but the two sides are going to argue over exactly what she's doing in this circumstance. At 447, she calls a CVS in Kingston and asks whether it carries children's mirrorlacks. The manager says it does not, but has comparable children's medication. I think this is really interesting. Again, the testimony on all of this is going to be fascinating. These are just facts that we're throwing out there right now. We don't know how they're going to be shaded by either side, but I can see the prosecution saying forethought planning here, either she's looking for a CVS that doesn't carry it so slows down her husband and trying to find children's mirrorlacks or defense saying she's calling because she really wants the mirrorlacks. Like if this were just a wild goose chase who cares if they carry mirrorlacks or not, she's calling because we kept medications all the time, right, ear infections or big guy, all these things. I definitely call ahead of time, so I don't have to wait in the car with a bunch of kids in my car waiting for a prescription that might not actually be there. I don't know. I just find that so fascinating that she actually calls to figure out if it's there or not. So she does. And in 43, she texts Patrick. Now he's working in the basement office. So I guess they're all in the same house and she texts him, which I also think is interesting. I mean, maybe it's not that interesting, but it's somewhat interesting to me. Like, do you text someone because you don't want to have the conversation? Yeah, you don't want them to see, you don't just concerned about that so you send a text. And she says, any chance you want to do takeout from 3v, I didn't cook anything, it's been a long day. Patrick agrees. Very normal. Nothing unusual about that at all. But that's what she texts.
him. At 506 they picked their meals, Lindsey calls 3v, she orders a Mediterranean power bowl for herself, and scallop and pork risotto for Patrick. And the employee who takes the order notices nothing abnormal about the call, and undoubtedly that poor individual is going to have to come in and testify in this trial about this very call. And he's going to be like the last person who talks to her, outside of Patrick, before she commits these murders. So, a few minutes later, about 515, Lindsey texts Patrick again, interesting, texts him the information when he's in the basement working. The particular medication that she wants, PDA lacks liquid stool softener, and Patrick leaves to go to CVS to pick up that stool softener, and then to 3v to pick up their takeout order. At 532 surveillance video records Patrick in the children's medication aisle at CVS, and at 533 Patrick calls Lindsey, but she doesn't answer. At 534, a minute later, Lindsey calls him right back. The conversation lasts approximately 14 seconds. She confirms which medication he should buy, and Patrick later says that she sounded as though she might have been "in the middle of something." And I mean, what a chilling statement, because at this time we know what she was in the middle of, and that's killing her children. Sometime between 515 and 609 pm, while Patrick is away, she takes the children into the finished basement, and she uses exercise resistance bands to strangle each of her children. She seems to take them into different locations. They are all found in different locations. At this point, having strangled her children, she then cuts her wrists and her neck. She goes upstairs, and she jumps from a second story bedroom window. The cuts will not end up being life threatening, but the fall does severely damage her spine, ultimately leaving her paralyzed. Apparently from the waist down, it's a little unclear exactly where the paralysis begins, but she is paralyzed and will be paralyzed for the rest of her life. While this is happening, surveillance video shows Patrick arriving in 3v, picking up the order, and driving home. At 6.9 pm, Patrick arrives home, and we talked about this moment before in other cases, and it is just so haunting. Every time I read it, in any case, it always sends chills down my spine, because I can understand exactly what it means. And that's he gets home, and the first thing he notices is how quiet the house is. The house is never quiet at 6 o'clock with three young children. Right. It's like the peak of noise at my house. Never. And so, when he walks in the door though, he doesn't hear three kids. If you've ever had three children in your house, much less had three children. They are not quiet. They are very loud. House of silent, and he sees blood. He gets upstairs, and he sees that the upstairs window is open. When he looks outside, he sees it Lindsey is on the ground. He goes down to her, and he asks her where the children are. Despite her injuries, she's still conscious, and she tells him they're in the basement. At about 6.11, so just a couple minutes after he gets home, Patrick finds all three children unconscious with exercise bands around or near their necks. He removes the bands quickly, he attempts CPR, he calls 911, and first responders continue resuscitation efforts when they get there. In other words, he finds them relatively soon after these murders likely happened. At 7.28, Kura and Dawson are pronounced dead at Beth Israel Deaconess Hospital in Plymouth, and Callan is transferred to Boston Children's Hospital in critical condition. So, flurry of activity, he gets home. She's still alive to tell him where they're at. She doesn't obscure. Maybe she thinks she's dying. Maybe she thinks they're completely dead. And for what it's worth, Callan survives a couple of days. And I'll say this, apparently the 911 call is horrific, yet I'm sure it'll be played in the trial. If you're watching that day, it probably will be played. Obviously, the images of the children will not be shown publicly. I imagine the 911 call will be played, and just prepare yourself for it, because apparently it's horrific. So, the next day on January 25th, the police execute search warns at the Clancy home. They seize the exercise bands, a knife, bloodstained material like journals and notebooks, hospital paperwork, medications, phones, computer surveillance equipment, and the CVS in three V records. During this time, Lindsay is still at the hospital, and she's under guard. And on January 27th, 2023, three days later, Callan dies at Boston Children's Hospital. And this case, at this point, becomes a triple homicide. So, in January 28th, Patrick releases a statement. I'm not actually sure when the statement is, but he releases a public statement describing each child and asking the public to forgive Lindsay. He says the real Lindsay was generously loving and caring towards everyone. Me, our kids, family, friends, and her patients. He says her condition deteriorated rapidly, and that the person who killed the children was not the woman he knew. I mean, just, I don't know, it's hard to even describe. Obviously, I don't even know how I would be feeling. Yeah. Like, I don't even know I could form words if that had happened to me. But this is not something after the fact it wasn't for a civil lawsuit. The day after his third child dies at the hands of his now ex-wife, he stood by her. So, criminal proceedings start to move forward at this point. There's an arraignment on February 7th. Lindsay actually appears from her hospital bed, and she pleads not guilty. At this stage, the counts are two murder counts, three strangulation counts, three counts of assault and battery with a dangerous weapon, and the prosecution argues what we're going to see in trial, which is that this whole thing was a plan to send him off so that she could kill her children. And they obviously, the defense is going to say, no, this was the culmination of deteriorating mental health. And this was, as he said, this was not the same person. The prosecution also reveals at this time that Lindsay reportedly told a psychologist that a male voice commanded her to kill the children and herself because it was her last chance. We're going to talk more about that when we get into the medication. So, September 15th, 2023, a Plymouth County grand jury indites Lindsay on three counts of murder and three counts of strangulation. The defense gives notice that it will rely on lack of criminal responsibility. You have to make this known so that both sides can prepare. This is the Massachusetts version of an insanity defense. That places the burden on the commonwealth to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Lindsay was criminally responsible once sufficient evidence of mental disease or defect is introduced. Soon after on January 20th, 26th, so earlier this year, Patrick and Lindsay separately sued several of Lindsay's mental health providers in civil malpractice suits. These suits allege that the providers failed to recognize her deteriorating conditions and ignored warning signs and subjected her to an unsafe succession of psychiatric medications. So, on March 30th, 2026, bifurcation of the trial is denied. So, the defense had actually asked the trial to move in two stages. One, did Lindsay intentionally commit the acts and two, was she criminally responsible. And the judge says, look, we're not going to do that because the factual and mental evidence is so intertwined. And you can imagine why the defense wants to do this. They want to create a mental break in the jury's mind. Okay, we've done all the fact stuff now. Leave that behind. She absolutely did it. Leave that behind. Now we're going to talk about mental stuff because the fact evidence is going to be so visceral and so devastating for her. And we talk about this sometimes. You know, why is it? If everyone agrees that the victim is dead, why is it that the prosecution gets to show the body, the blood, the scene, the stab wounds? Why do they get to do that? And the reason they get to do that is because Supreme Court has said the jury gets to see that. The prosecution gets to present that evidence. Even if you can imagine how is it even relevant if everyone agrees that the person is dead, why are we showing images of their dead body? We all agree that they're dead. Supreme Court said no, because trials aren't just scientific exercises. They also have this emotional historical component and putting all that evidence before the jury is important. So the jury is going to hear about how all three of these kids were murdered. The defense has made multiple motions to try and limit this. And the prosecution's position has been, look, every one of those children matters, how they died matters. And we're not going to cut one of the kids out to save time. We're going to talk about every one of them. So that's all going to happen. And it's all going to come in. And even though in April, the defense offered to stipulate that Lindsey caused the deaths once again in an effort to just focus on mental state, the court declines. They're going to do that. I think old chief is the Supreme Court case that is about this. If you want to read it, old chief is about the fact that the prosecution can bring all this evidence in. And we're coming up to the trial. We're going to talk a little bit about
the trial and then we're going to go ahead and break for it's day. But jury selection is now complete. 18 jurors have been selected. 12 with the liberate six alternates, which is a lot ordinarily. You don't go that high, but six alternates are a lot because we can imagine people dropping off and the trial is expected to last six to eight weeks. And I do want to talk about the trial despite the fact Alice is highlighting it because I want to give you this part. And then we'll go ahead and break for today. And then the next time we're going to go through all the drugs that she was prescribed, what they do, how they affected her, how she described them. And then we will also talk about the opening statements and the initial witnesses in the Commonwealth's case. Okay. So the jury is picked. Massachusetts calls the insanity defense, quote, lack of criminal responsibility. Clancy does not bear the ultimate burden of proving that she was insane. She must produce only some evidence, which if believed could create a reasonable doubt about her criminal responsibility. That's a really low threshold, by the way. Remember, the prosecution has approved beyond a reasonable doubt to overcome to present that this insanity defense. She just has to put forward some evidence that could create reasonable doubt for her responsibility. Once that relatively low threshold is crossed, the burden shifts entirely back to the common wealth. The common wealth then must ultimately prove for criminal responsibility beyond a reasonable doubt, just as it must prove the other elements of murder. So there's basically an added beyond a reasonable doubt factor they have to prove here. All right. So how do they do that? So the case that controls, if you want to read it in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, is Mick Hool versus the Commonwealth. It's MCHOUL. So the Commonwealth must prove that at the time of the killings, Lindsey either did not suffer from a mental disease or defect, probably hard, or to the extent she did, she retained substantial capacity to appreciate the wrongfulness of her conduct or to conform her conduct to the requirements of the law. The defense wins if the evidence leaves a reasonable doubt that because of mental illness, she lacked substantial capacity in either respect. You may be asking yourself, what in the world is substantial capacity? And just note, if you've listened to our previous episodes on the insanity defense, this is a much different standard the Massachusetts has. It's a much lower threshold for the defendant than if you were in Texas or Alabama or California or lots of other places, most other places. The vast majority of states is a matter of fact. So substantial capacity does not mean complete understanding or complete self-control. So the prosecution will likely use her planning, her internet searches, her statements, the timing and the conduct surrounding the killings to argue that she understood that what she was doing is wrong and she could have stopped herself. The defense will use the psychiatric history and expert testimony to argue that psychosis or another severe disorder destroyed one or both capacities. So note that this standard is different from the McNaughton test that we've talked about. The McNaughton test requires a defendant to show that she either did not understand the nature and quality of her act or did not know that it was wrong. In other words, someone who knew she was killing her children and understood that killing them was wrong would generally fail to prove insanity, even if mental illness severely impaired her ability to resist doing it. The Massachusetts test excuses a person who understood that the killings were wrong, but because of her illness, lacked substantial capacity to control her conduct. In other words, it's a lot easier to prove the insanity defense and Massachusetts than any state who has adopted the McNaughton test. I mean, just to be clear, in most other states, this isn't even an interesting case. In most other states, she's 100% guilty. It doesn't matter that she was suffering from various mental illnesses. She clearly was able to make decisions about what she was going to do and intentionally kill her kids. In most states, that's enough. And think about this in terms of things that aren't this. So it is not uncommon for people who commit horrible acts to claim they could not control themselves. We see this with serial killers. We see this with the abusers of children, child pornography, all sorts of people. We'll claim that they didn't want to murder, they don't want to view or create child pornography, but they have this irresistible impulse to do it. And they can't help themselves. When most states are like, well, good for you, buddy, enjoy prison. You know, that doesn't even matter. We don't care that you have an irresistible impulse to do this illegal thing. Sorry, you're going to prison. That's the way it is usually because you knew it was wrong. You should have taken steps to avoid doing the thing. Like, what are you even talking about? That's the way it is in most states. That is not how it is in Massachusetts. In Massachusetts, there is this idea that you can have a mental disease or defect that's so severe that even though you know exactly what you're doing, you know it's wrong. You're planning on doing it. You know that if your husband was there, he would stop you. So you got to get rid of him. You got to get him out of the house. Thank goodness he's gone. Now I can come up with children, which I realize is a horrible thing to do, but I can't help it because the voices are telling me this is the only way to keep them safe. And so I'm going to do it, right? In Massachusetts, that is a theory that could be successful. It is not a theory that could be successful in a lot of states. So this case is really interesting in part because where it is. And some people will probably say, good, this is exactly, and it is. This is exactly the kind of case that that standard was developed for. It wasn't developed for the child predator. That person is not who we developed the standard for. We really did develop the standard for people exactly like Lindsey Clancy. And we thought to be not in test was too strict. And it did not allow for exceptions for these extreme situations. So Massachusetts has this much different system where she is going to have the opportunity to prove to a jury. And this will be the prosecution's challenge. The jury can absolutely believe that she planned this and followed the plan to the letter and still acquit her on the basis of insanity. And I think this is important too. She will not be found guilty, but insane. She will be found either guilty and she would go to prison for the rest of her life with no chance of parole, or she will be found not guilty by reason of insanity. Or that's not exactly what they say. It's mental disease or defect. And at that point, she'll be evaluated. And you know, to a certain extent, the change in the standard doesn't really matter. Like let's imagine a world in which a child predator successfully argued. I couldn't help myself. Well done matter. You can't help yourself. Guess what? You're going to be in a criminal mental facility, basically a prison with a psychiatric hospital for the rest of your life, because you can't conform your behavior to society. That is not necessarily the case here. Because if Lindsey Clancy can show that this was postpartum psychosis that has now passed, that she is no longer under the grip of it, that she is not a danger to society. She has no children. That would typically be who should be danger to. After a brief period of evaluation, she can be released and she will just go free and she will not be under any kind of criminal penalty, because she will be not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect. So that's what we're looking at here. It is unlikely. And I know, I know Andrea Yates is still in a psychiatric facility. I know. This is not Andrea Yates. This is a different case, a different state, a different time. So most likely, if she is failed, not guilty, she will spend very little time in a facility before she is eventually released. There are a lot of questions too, obviously. She's still a child there in years. There are no conditions for future children she may or may not have. You know, in this goes back something I said earlier, something on the gallery was questioning whether or not for sterilization was something that should be considered here. And people were like, whoa, and I get why you're like, whoa. But honestly, she killed three kids. I don't know that any question is outside the realm of discussion. Even if I don't necessarily agree with that, I think we should all be open to talking about this case freely because it is such a difficult situation given what we know and what could happen in the future depending on how this goes. So we're all going to walk through this together over the next few weeks. I believe this will be a huge focus of the defense's opening. The opening is going to be interesting in this case because I think everybody's going to agree exactly what happened. I expect the defense will get up and say, Lindsey Clancy killed her children. She absolutely did that. There's no question that she did that. But it wasn't Lindsey Clancy. It wasn't truly her. As her husband said, you know, if you can get that in, I would draw an objection, but do it anyway and try it. Give it a shot. I mean, that has to be the focus throughout because you've got to take that sting out as much as you can, as early as you can. Those weeks of testimony are going to be tough.
I mean, exercise bands to strangle her children. In different locations, you know, it's gonna come out more about how they died what they were found in, but like, they're not next to each other, the thought in bringing each of them to a different room. It's gonna be horrific. It's gonna be difficult to look past it as the juror. And there's gonna be people out there who could not. And jury selection focused on that a lot, but it is very easy to sit in jury selection and say, "I have an open mind, I will listen to all the evidence, and I will make a decision at the end." But when you see pictures of three dead children, and you hear about how their mother wrapped exercise bands around their throats to strangle them to death, including a five-year-old. I mean, that is awful. And there are people who hear that and say, "I don't care what you went through. You murdered those babies. You are guilty, and you'll never be anything but guilty." And that is the challenge that her defense has to ever come. I mean, this is, now granted, prosecution has the same difficulty, because all it takes, as we often say, is one person who's willing to say, "That's awful, but she clearly, that wasn't her." And what does that see? What happens? I mean, I really, I hope, I pray to every God, you know, Athena, if you're out there listening, like, that there is one trial in this case. Whatever happens, whatever happens, that jury needs to reach a verdict at the end, whether it's not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect, or whether it's guilty. This needs to happen one time, and never happen again, and the world needs to move on. So we'll be watching the opening statements tomorrow, and we will, the next time, there has to be an entire episode. This is how long it is, but it's her list of medications. So we'll be going through all the medications she was on. This is obviously going to be a very big part of the trial, so this is just going to be based on what we know from the civil complaints. And I really am. I think tomorrow's opening statements will set the stage for both sides. What the narrative will be coming from both. Look, when we started this podcast, this was not the kind of case I wanted to cover, or ever do, the hate cases like this, but it's an important case. And you guys want us to cover this case, so we're going to cover it, and we're going to cover it closely. We're going to walk through this together over these next few weeks. It won't be easy. It's going to be difficult. As I said, give each other some grace, a lot of strong feelings about this, and it's understandable. No matter what you think about this, totally understandable. So like I said, we're going to get through it together. It's going to be tough. This is a hard one. This is, you know, Murdoch, there were some joyous moments in Murdoch. There was some fun to be had, despite how horrific that case actually is. There were some fun times. I do not imagine there's going to be any fun times in this case. Nobody wins. What? Honestly, like, truly, if she's found guilty, if she's found not guilty by reason of mental defect, literally nobody wins. Three lives are ended forever. A family is torn apart. Like, this is just horrific on every single level. Somebody just asked him a Sophie, if, you know, during the Karen retrial, we streamed the trial on Patreon. I'll try and do that again. I think it'll be easy to do. So if you guys want to watch it together, I'll stream it. I'll do it through their streams so they get the credits for the clicks. But probably for TV, if you guys want to watch it together and discuss it, you can do that. All right. Well, look, this case will be interesting. Let us know your thoughts. If you want to join the discussion, it's happening on the gallery, which is on Facebook. Join the gallery. Talk about this case. If you want to watch us record these episodes pretty much real-time coverage of this case. Join Patreon. If you want to get these episodes early and add free, you can get them through Patreon. You can also get them through Apple subscriptions, or if you join our sub-stack, we're also putting the videos up there. But if you want really just the real-time, real-time-iest coverage, Patreon should your way to do that. If you have thoughts or questions, prosecutor's
[email protected] at prosecutor's pod for all your social media. And let us know what you think about this case or any other case. If you have cases you want us to cover, you should just need mail us the best way to do it. All right, Alice, before we sign off for today, do you have any other thoughts? No, this is a hard case to cover, but I do think a lot of good discussion and policy discussions will come out of it as well. So if we have to cover this case, I'm glad I'm doing it with you, Brett. And I'll say this, and we've said this before. The law is designed for 99% of the cases that happen. And all the extremes is where things break down and fail. This is an extreme case, and we're just going to have to see. If at the end of it, we feel like the system worked or didn't work. And I don't think it's necessarily an indictment of the system if it doesn't work. It's just, there's no good answer here. I truly believe that. However we end up coming out about what the verdict should be, there is no good answer in this case. And that is just one of those things about life that I think we all have to accept. All right, guys, well, not going to say this has been fun, but I always enjoy discussing these cases with Alice and with y'all. And we'll be back next time. It'll be before next week, probably being in a couple of days. But until then, I'm Brett. And I'm Alice. And we are the prosecutors. [Music] If she's convicted, she'll do life without parole. So basically, every state has a prison that's attached to a medical facility for inmates who need that kind of care, a federal system. There's several federal medical centers. There's buttoner in North Carolina. That's the one we dealt with most of the time. But there's also one in Seattle. We tried to deal with that one as little as possible because of the night circuit. And it's unusual laws. Though buttoner got weird too. [Music] [Music] [Music] Oh, hold on, I'm trying to do something before we start. Failing. You got it, I believe in you. How's everybody doing? Hi, everyone. Happy Sunday. It was, it's going to be a hundred degrees here on Tuesday. I don't know if it's, I don't think it's going to be a hundred. [Music] [Music] Hello and welcome to Pluto Fo. If you know the name of the movie you'd like to see, just stream it for free on Pluto TV. We're all your blockbuster favorites are landing all summer long. Catch anchor man, the legend of Ron Burgundy. Fantastic. The Matrix trilogy. Welcome to the real world. Mean Girls. Side up. Titanic. I'm the key in the world. And so much more for showtime. Press nothing. They're free 24/7. That is so fast. On Pluto TV, stream now. Pay never.
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