The Liberal Wine Moms are Radicalizing (with Jennifer Welch)

Why does Israel get free health care and Americans are facing medical bankruptcy? Why do Israelis get free education in Americans down and we spend send them billions upon billions of dollars? Why are your tax dollars subsidizing this? Hello, hello, and welcome back to a bit fruity. I'm at Bernstein. I'm so happy that you're here. There's a common adage that as you get older, you get more conservative. No one is showing how false this can be quite like Jennifer Welch. When you're bought and paid for by APAC, you're not authentic. You're Benjamin Netanyahu's bitch, period. So listen up, Democratic establishment. You can either jump on board with this shit or we're coming after you in the same way that we come after MAGA. When I look at people, if I were to say who's more Christ's like, I would pick AOC and Atheist Jew Bernie Sanders and the Muslim Zoran Mamdani, a million times over you, Riley Gaines, because Riley Gaines, all you do is hate on people. You are wound up like a cheap clock over trans people. You show them no grace, no compassion, you defend billionaires, you cheer and celebrate when children are zip tied. And then you have the audacity to get on television and try to lecture people who fight for the people that are suffering, that stand and put their arms around people that need sanctuary. And you try to act like you're better than they are. You will always have been the dumb bitch that tied for fifth place. And the only place that you can get a job is that bottom feeder fox news, you insufferable twat. Hailing from Oklahoma, Jennifer, who co-hosts the liberal podcast I've had it, has built a reputation online as the face of liberal wine moms or resistance liberals or a number of other nicknames which refer to a specific widespread type of person in the US, a center liberal who hates Trump and who votes Democrat, but is less likely to critique Democrats or the role capitalism plays in our politics or our government's bewildering and bipartisan support for genocide in Palestine. Think like, you know, a lot of you responded to my episode about Bill Maher being like my liberal parents love Bill Maher. It's like oftentimes those types of people, you know. Since the 2024 election though, Jennifer has changed her tune. In a recent interview, she said, quote, I'm going to quote you here, Jennifer, the democratic establishment is MAGA light. They have the same donors. And regarding a recent rally for Zirada Mamdani, the progressive candidate for mayor in New York City, please get out and vote, who most mainstream Democrats have avoided or even slandered. Jennifer said, quote, Hakim Jeffries, the Democratic leader in the House and Chuck Schumer, the Democratic leader in the Senate, Hakim and Chuck should have been front and center introducing the next mayor of New York City. But no, they wouldn't show up because they're pussies. They're pussies that are beholden to the same corporations that help Donald Trump get elected. Jennifer is a wine mom radicalized. And today she's here to talk about what energized her politics forward. And the plea that she and I are making to the Democratic parties that we can not only stop losing, but start actually standing for something. Jennifer, welcome to a bit fruity. Thank you, Matt. I'm so happy to be here. I was so excited when you DM to me to come on because you're one of my favorite follows online. I think you do such great thought leadership on Instagram. That's my main platform that I look at. And I followed you forever long before you were on I've had it. And I just thought this guy really is a great messenger. You're really good thought leader online. Oh man. That's that's quite a pedestal. Please don't put me up that high. But I appreciate it. I thought we could start the episode by talking about something that actually happened between us last year. Do you know what I'm referring to? Yes, I remember that you were on I've had it and we filmed so much. But I remember that maybe you were upset. And then after the filming and I don't I don't think it was personal. I think it was content upset. And I remember messaging you saying don't worry. You know, we're on the same team or something. But you'll have to refresh my memory as to what it was about because we filmed so much. And I'm 51 and I don't know how sharp it used to be. Well, I think this is just such a good maybe behind the scenes anecdote because basically I went on your podcast last year before the 2024 election. And we mostly did an unrelated episode. It was like mostly about JK Rowling. And I had so much fun with you guys at the end. You guys and this was like right before the election. This was I think it was maybe like in September of 2024. You and your co-host pumps love her to death. You were like, you know, a lot of Gen Z is protesting Kamala Harris for this that in the other reason. Could you you basically asked me to like speak on behalf of my generation for like a full-throated endorsement of Kamala Harris. Which I in the moment kind of froze because as someone who was very much tapped into discourse around Palestine and sort of all of the ways that like Kamala was falling short as a candidate in ways that we're going to talk about is, you know, endemic of the larger democratic party today. I was like, I'm voting for her. I, you know, I can't best for her in Pennsylvania. But when it comes to the internet, I'm like, this is a really delicate conversation to have because people have really real reasons why they feel like they can't and those reasons need to be honored. And so I kind of just like froze up and I was like, I'm scared. No matter how I say this, like, I don't think we should do this part. I don't think we should do this part. And you guys were so nice about it. You were like, we'll just cut that part. It's all good. Don't worry. We get it. But what's funny is that then many months later, like more recently, I started seeing these videos of you going viral, talking about how APAC has fucked up and corrupted the democratic party, how all of these things need to change. And I was like, who is this woman? You've really gone on a journey. Well, let me just say this. I would probably still ask you the same because at the time there are two people you can vote for. And as a woman, I recently moved to New York, but for 51 years, I lived in the Bible belt. And for a lot of people on the coasts that have the luxury of having blue state governments and their civil liberties not being eroded, you can dive into issues like Palestine. If you live in a flyover state with a Christian nationalist government that has a mega supermajority and has had a mega supermajority for years. And when I'm not a podcast, I'm an interior designer. So y'all can imagine I have abundant amount of gay friends and always have my entire life. A common here is presidency for young queer kids and the Bible belt is a lifeline. It means survival. For a young trans person in Oklahoma, a common Harris presidency means that maybe several of those kids won't commit suicide. And so while I have a lot of criticism for corporate Democrats and have opened my eyes even more, because I have had to live around these cruel, mega, white Christian nationalists and their attacks on marginalized communities, especially poor people, especially queer people, especially trans people. I know firsthand that a common Harris presidency for the young trans teen in their high school means survival. It's a lifeline. And so I will criticize the Democratic Party right now until the cows come home. But because of my experience in seeing the LGBTQ+ being bullied by their government, seeing black and brown people being thrown in their bus and disregarded by their government, I would crawl through 10 feet of concrete, wear off all the skin on my fingertips to vote for a corporate den over a maggot conservative. Because in those red states, the federal government has been the only thing that has protected these marginalized communities. And I'm sure you have a lot of blue dots and red states that listen to you. And they feel isolated and they've been bullied by their parents, their churches, their peers, and now their government. And I was on a conversation last night with a dear friend of mine that lives in Oklahoma and she is a trans daughter in Oklahoma. And all care is illegal now. And they're looking to make parents who travel with their children out of state to seek care to criminalize that. So she's going to have to uproot her husband, both of her kids, to move to a California or New York, to a sanctuary city to be able to raise her daughter. Because for her, it is a life or death situation. So I think we have to do two things at the same time, Matt. I think we have to try to move the leaders we have and the party we have. Further to the left, get rid of corporate interests. But also, we still have this fucked up two party system. Yeah, and I totally see that. I think we lost, right? So badly. And my thing is like examining the loss requires examining those failures of Palestinians, of trans people in red states, of women in red states. Like, they're all bound up in one another. And I think now is the time, right? Because so many people during the election were saying wait till after the election to criticize Democrats, wait till we win. And then you can push them, but they lost. And I think now part of what we need to do is figure out how to win. And I think where you and I really come together on this is that we need to get corporate money out of the Democratic Party that has turned them into Maga Light. And I want to highlight again, like you mentioned, it's like, well, you know, people in certain areas, they have to prioritize their needs first and those that are, you know, threatened under a Trump presidency. And I do get all of that. And I think I just want to even further clarify my position that it's like, these are all bound up in one another, you know, the safety of trans people, the safety of Palestinians, the ability for politicians to protect any of the rights of those groups of people. Because in examining this loss of Democrats, we're seeing like if you can get paid off to continue to facilitate the genocide of Palestinians, what can't you be paid off to do? And I think that reaches voters, that lack of confidence, right? Yeah. And you're 100% correct. And we have to do a real autopsy on the fact that we lost two national elections to a total fucking moron. I mean, an unqualified convicted felon racist adjudicated rapist proven in court to be a fraud, bankrupted casinos, we lost two major elections to this man. And that requires a massive autopsy. And in my own personal kind of looking at this, listening to others, you're right. And a lot of people, when they start tracking this, it goes back to the corporate donors. And it goes back to the scotus decision of citizens united. And there is a, especially when you get to democratic leadership right now, like Hawking Jeffries, Chuck Schumer, Cory Booker, why it's such a layup right now? Why can't they say Benjamin Netanyahu is a war criminal? He needs to be arrested. And it is a genocide and we are the anti-war party, period. And they can't because they take the same money. And when you find out that A Pat gave Trump $350 million, the same amount is Elon musted. That's pretty devastating. We'll go through different pieces of this sort of autopsy. And like, what shifted you further to the left and how you're thinking about what Democrats should do moving forward. But I want to first for anyone who's listening to this that doesn't really like know about you. And this like Southern twang, like, who are you? Where do you come from? And what got you to this point? So I was born in Dallas, Texas and lived there until like halfway through grade school. And then we moved my family, moved to Oklahoma City. And I lived there forever, went to the University of Oklahoma, lived there up until a month ago, marrying two sons, interior designer, was raised by atheist, very progressive atheist, which is a very bizarre upbringing in the buckle of the Bible belt. My mother is 82 years old. She's still alive. And she despises religion like you wouldn't believe. And I just was never indoctrinated into any religion. And when you live around right wing politics, and you're somewhat enlightened and not brainwashed by like Southern Baptist ideology or white evangelicalism, it's really off-pitting. So I've always been incredibly political throughout even my whole interior design career. I've always been into politics, very interested in politics, hosted political fundraisers for all the Democrats in Oklahoma that lost all of their races. And you know, I've always had my hat in the game. And so Thompson, I were on a Bravo television show in 2016 to around 2019 called Sweet Home Oklahoma. We did two seasons. It was a total blast. And then our kids about three years ago were like, you guys still have people that like follow your Instagram and once y'all they come back on, you should do a podcast. And I was like, everybody has a podcast like that's they're like, you should just try it. So we tried it. And I can't help but talk about politics like anybody who's known me for the last 30 years. It's a, oh, Jennifer's very political. And so I can't, our show was about daily grievances, but in the Trump era, he's the biggest fucking grievance we all deal with. So it would just start oozing out. Pumps, my co-host was a right-wing evangelical Republican Christian, the only adult friend that I had that was like that, but our friends were best friends. And over the course of the last maybe seven or eight years, she became kind of enlightened and kind of spun out of her religion. And then she started getting really progressive. And she was never political before. Like I remember her voting for like George Bush, nobody liked George Bush, like me and all my gay friends didn't. And that's who I always went with in Oklahoma. And so she got really political. It was more difficult for her at first to speak out about politics because her family still super mega. All of her friends are super Christian, super mega. But it's been so fun to see her get her voice and her courage. And her kind of speak up because I know that they're like, oh shit, she used to be on our team. But I was always the skunk at the Garden Party, Matt, in Oklahoma. I'm always the liberal. I'm always the atheist. Always. That's always been me. The skunk at the Garden Party. Yeah. In many ways, I think the one thing that makes us so novel that were middle-aged Fox News coded looking, Fox News coded sounding. Oh shit, where were these women on January 6th? And then we start spoon liberal stuff. I think the thing that makes us novel is also kind of sad that we are such an outlier because a lot of people liberals and red states will tell you liberals and red states are just built different because you you face the fuckery of red state bullshit every single day. I mean, like we had superintendent of school in Oklahoma named Ryan Walters, who every single day posted a video about how homophobic or transphobic he was. And guess what Oklahoma's ranked in education? 50th. Oh 50th. I thought it was 47. 50th. Yeah, we just we just bumped down to 50th under his leadership. So I want to get into this autopsy of the Democratic Party as you and I see it right now. I know that a big part of your sort of radicalization, if I may, and my own was learning about APAC. APAC is like if there was one lobby, but broadly just like one political power in the United States that I wish people knew about that I wish it was like a household name like the NRA is I wish it was I wish everybody knew about APAC because learning about this like it changed my brain chemistry with respect to how I think about the US government have you the listener ever wondered why the United States continues its bipartisan support of what the biggest human rights organizations have ruled a genocide why even when 142 members of the UN voted to recognize Palestinian statehood, the US was one of just 10 that didn't why Kamala Harris's 2024 position on Israel was barring some fluffy platitudes about peace indistinguishable from Trump's that is because of pro-Israel lobbying groups the biggest of which is APAC the American Israel public affairs committee. Jennifer I have seen you rail against APAC and so I want you to tell people who are unfamiliar with APAC what it is and what the hell is going on here okay like Matt said they are a lobbying group and they donated $350 million to Donald Trump's reelection campaign they preferred him they wanted him the ceasefire deal that just happened Joe Biden had that deal Trump and Netanyahu spiked it the genocide continued and then two weeks before the Nobel Peace Prize because that's what Trump wanted so bad the timing of this faux ceasefire that they're rolling out they did and Joe Biden and Kamala Harris had that same deal during the campaign and Benjamin Netanyahu wanted Donald Trump a lot of these strong corrupt men want Donald Trump and here's what's so fascinating about APAC you guys so they want a corrupt politician so that they can fleece Americans and they can guide and direct American foreign policy but they also want to control politicians so when you start to open up your eyes to this it enrages you because like here's a prime example of where I really got pissed off about this Cory Booker likable great speaker good looking you know youngish and it's like okay he's a cool senator he's a cool member of the democratic party he does a 25 hour filibuster standing up for civil liberties and black and brown folks and democracy and you're like yeah somebody gives a shit he cares and then Benjamin Netanyahu rolls into the United States of America and this is a you know peak genocide and you would think this guy is toxic as I'll get out and then there's a photo shoot by partisan senators standing there and Cory Booker was kind of like hiding behind somebody. And then you start digging into it and there's an article from a few years ago where Cory Booker who told a journalist that he and his contact at A-PAC text like teenagers. And he's taken like a million dollars in A-PAC money. And so has Hakim Jeffries. And then you realize, okay, wait a minute. So this lobby wants to control the United States of America. And if you speak out against Israel, you're going to be told that you're an anti-Semite. While they fund the most anti-Semitic political party that America has right now, all of the anti-Semites you guys are in MAGA, full stop. And all of the place where I grew up, Oklahoma City, you have all these Christian Zionists. And like these are the people I call the rapture preppers. And they are sitting around prepping for the rapture. And this is how little they think of Jewish people. In order for Jesus Christ to come back, the Jews have to be in Israel. And then Jesus comes down, sends all the Jews to hell, and then takes the Bible tempers up to heaven, which is ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, genocide. And so it's a really fucked up thing once you get into. And as an atheist, never like indoctrinated into anything, all the religious shit drives me crazy. But the fact that Democrats are be holding to the same lobby is, it makes you so mad. It makes me so mad. Well, and I have to say it like as a Jewish person, they hate when I say that. The Zionist hate when I say that. They're always like, Oh, yeah, you're going to speak as a Jew. Yes, I will. I see all of these politicians who couldn't be bothered when it comes to really any number of forms of bigotry. I mean, look at the way that they treat Islamophobia across the aisle. But suddenly, they all are mysteriously will fight tooth and nail against what they call anti-Semitism, which is always just criticism of Israel, protesting of Israel calls to stop sending arms to Israel. Like I really don't think the average voter understand, and none of these congresspeople are Jewish, like very, very, very, very, very few of them are Jewish. Right. Right. Which is not to say that they can't be authentic allies to Jews and fighting anti-Semitism. But my friend, that is just very clearly not what is going on here. And I wish the average person understood just the same way that a lot of the people taking money from the NRA don't actually personally care very much about guns one way or another, that these people are just taking a pack money. That's why the politicians don't move on this issue. They are being funded up to their gills. And here's the problem, you guys. This is where this is going to get really dangerous for the country. Matt's 100% correct that they act like they care about human rights. But whenever you have somebody that cherry picks human rights, die Cory Booker, for example. I care about black and brown kids. I care about these undocumented migrant kids. They shouldn't be zip tied. And he's perfect, perfect stands up for the marginalized, stands up for the marginalized, except for when you get to Palestinian kids, then it gets blurry. Then he has a strange bed fellow in Ted Cruz. Ted Cruz, his number one thing is Israel. Right. Because he's a rapture prepper. But he doesn't give a shit considering he's Cuban, which is weird and we'll leave that up to the psychologist to analyze that. You know, then when it gets to migrant kids, he doesn't give a shit about them. And then you hear people like Zoran Mamdani who advocates for everybody. And what Matt has said throughout this whole podcast that we've had is all of these things are connected. Trans rights are connected to women's rights are connected to gay rights, queer rights, black rights, brown rights, all of those things are connected. But in this vacuum, you're going to have bad actors that come out. And if the democratic establishment doesn't get their shit together or step aside, somebody is making a lot of waves right now on the right. And this is this what I'm about to tell you should terrify everybody. Marjorie Taylor Green and Tucker Carlson. Yes. Are making statements that will hit so hard with the mega-based. And this is about them demanding non-stop demanding. America, pay attention to Israel, do what Israel wants, fight Israel's wars and pay for them. And if you don't, then we're going to come after anyone and everyone that gets in the way of that. And if you're wondering why people are talking about primarying me, well, it's because I don't take any money from APAC. I've called for APAC to be registered under FERA. I've introduced amendments to defund all of our American tax dollars from going to Israel every single year. Billions and billions of dollars every single year. We're not mega. We're mega. Marjorie Taylor Green and Tucker Carlson are saying things in a vacuum like this. Well, this isn't America first. These politicians are Israel first and they get free health care and we don't get free health care. And so I'm not going to have APAC come lobby. And so many people where I'm from you guys middle Americans are going to go, yeah, she's right. Well, here's the problem with Marjorie Taylor Green. As Marjorie Taylor Green is a fucking big it. Marjorie Taylor Green is a homophobe. Marjorie Taylor Green is a transfer. She is a grifter. But I'll be god damned if she didn't shock the shit out of me. She's a lot smarter than I thought she was. And she's manipulative and she's figuring out. I can take the same bigotry that Trump has towards immigrants because that's not going over very well. You know, rich white folks are saying their gardeners get deported and their housekeepers get deported and they're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, some Marjorie Taylor Green's like, yeah, we'll go after the Jews. And her intention is nefarious. But that messaging in a vacuum, the Democrats are leaving it right there again, Matt. Right on the table. I would like to take a quick break from the show to thank factor for sponsoring this episode. I talk a lot about how I make this show entirely myself. And I know it sounds like I'm complaining. And sometimes with the hours that I keep I am. But I am still very proud of it. This is all to say, I'd like to use the time that I'm not working spent doing joyous things, especially now that it's fall in New York. I want to live my Christian girl out on fantasy. I want to get outside. Look outside my window. I want to crunch some fucking leaves. 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And now let's get back to the episode. and the destruction of Gaza, then most Democrats in Congress. - But it is a Holocaust, what's happening? - Well, is it though? - Yes. - So, I think language is really important. - I think language is really important as well. And that's why- - People say Holocaust genocide and so on. - I think what's happening is a Holocaust. The burning bodies of the children, that I'm seeing every day, and we spoke like this a little bit on my show, but like I have recognized that the ability to see this stuff every day has transformed my opinion. And so I want to use my platform to say that I believe that they are intentionally executing a Holocaust. I think BB Net and Yahoo, there's tons of evidence. And obviously the Western media is not reporting on this, but the corruption trials that are going on with BB Net and Yahoo, pertaining to October 7th and him editing the transcripts and the prior knowledge that he knew is now becoming extremely pertinent. It is a question as to whether or not he allowed the attacks to take place, essentially, to then be able to go in and to commit this Holocaust against the Palestinians. - And I have to very carefully explain to them that those people are actually anti-Semitic. They're grifters. They're grifters and they're squeezing into a spot where they realize that it's like, like why is everyone looking, why are all the politicians looking away from this? This is crazy. And they're realizing that they can exploit a popular sentiment there. But also like Tucker Carlson has been the foremost advocate of great replacement theory in this country. Marjorie Taylor Greene believes that like climate change just caused by Jewish space lasers or something. - Candace Owens, Candace Owens in an interview that she just did with Harvey Weinstein from prison was continually trying to insinuate that the Jews conspired against Harvey Weinstein and that's why he's in prison. - Have you considered that it could be deeper that there was somebody who wanted you put away, that there may have been someone who wanted your company because to me, there was just overwhelming evidence that you were set up here. I don't know who you upset. I don't know what they were after. I do think that you stepped on somebody's toes. - You know, I can't say who. - Why not? Why can't you say who? What do you have to be? - Because I'm not sure that I'm right. - You know what I mean? - I think, I really want to push you on this point, Harvey, because I think it's very significant. I mean, you had the greatest movies that were in Hollywood, you had a lot of power. And I'm wondering if there was anybody in Hollywood that you may have been fighting with at that time. - There wasn't a fight per se, but the establishment, I would not say was my friends. - Right, and who, what is the establishment in Hollywood? - It's normally the big studios, but I can't say that they were part of this. - Right, no, I'm just wondering like who in the end, who owns all those movies now, who owns your catalog. - It's like, these are such anti-Semitic people, and their positions are actually related to anti-Semitism, but then I can't even explain that because the A-PAC people have made it so that any criticism of Israel is conflated with anti-Semitism, and so now I sound like all of these bad-paid Zionists. Thank you for giving me an avenue to talk about that. - But the problem with the Marjorie Taylor Greens, the Tucker Carlson, that messaging, you guys, that very simple messaging, remember, we start talking about nuanced stuff, this very simple messaging, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Tucker Carlson to say, "Why does Israel get free healthcare "and Americans are facing medical bankruptcy?" And I'm just telling you, that's gonna fucking hit hard with everyday American voters. Why did Israelis get free education in Americans down? And we spend, send them billions upon billions of dollars. Well, a true progressive would say, I want all everybody to have free healthcare and access to higher education and all of these things, but they're simplifying this thing down. And in it, it provides the base who is primed to keep hating somebody, like trans people, undocumented migrants, et cetera. And now they can replace that with the Jews, which is really, really dangerous. So this is the thing that gets me about all of these fucking fascists and the fascist enablers, APAC. You are playing a short-sighted game. You are getting in bed with the people, the president who, when people marched, Jews cannot replace us. He says both sides have good points here, right? You've got his supporters at these Trump boat rallies, these white trash boat rallies have Nazi flags. His co-president, Elon Musk is out there doing sick hiles. And at some point, those knives are gonna be turned at you, APAC, the same with the Latinos for Trump. They found out they went and colluded with him, they wanted to vote with him, despite the mass deportations now signs at the Republican National Convention. Now they're all getting deported, the knives are turned at them. Scott Besson, the DL demon queen that runs the treasury, you wanna go saddle up with a bunch of homophobes? Guess what, Scott, at some point, those knives are gonna be pointed at you. You're not the special queen, Scott. You're gonna be the first on the chopping block. And so it's the short-sighted thing that people are doing, but I think Tucker Carlson's gonna run for president. And I think Marjorie Taylor Greene possibly could too, or she's running for Senate or as VP pick. And they are ahead of the curve here and they are out flanking Democrats on this issue and it's terrifying. - And I feel like the solution to that, 'cause we're identifying a lot of problems and how Democrats have been so corrupted by APAC. This should be a litmus test for Democrats going forward. That's my opinion. I think if you are taking APAC money, I think that's disqualifying. And so many people, especially around the election, we're saying, don't criticize Democrats. Now is not the time. Now is the time. We, I don't talk a whole lot about electoral strategy on this podcast. I talk a lot more about culture and political TV hosts, but like, I've been waiting for this. And now is the time. I mean, we're, we don't have midterms right now. We don't have a presidential election right now. We are seeing an unapologetically pro-Palestine, pro-trans democratic socialist, about to, God willing, please get out and vote, win for mayor in New York City. We have every reason to believe that like, APAC should be a litmus test if you want to run for a seat in the Democratic Party. I wanna quote, Tanahashi Coates here, who said, we are at a moment right now where people are asking themselves, why can't the Democratic Party defend this assault on democracy? And I would submit to you that if you can't draw the line at genocide, you probably can't draw the line at democracy. That's such a good quote. And it's not just like, feel good dogma. I think that if you can be bought out by a corporate interest group to the point where you enable genocide, which is exactly what almost every Democrat in the US Congress has done over the last two years, what can't you be corrupted to do? What won't you capitulate on, you know? - Yeah. - I wanted to ask you because you famously recently spoke to Cory Booker, and you asked him a very simple question, which was what? - Is Benjamin Netanyahu a war criminal? Do you think he's a war criminal? Benjamin Netanyahu, do you think he's a war criminal? - I, again. - We got word salad, rhetoric, filibustering. - These are questions that a lot of people think are the important litmus tests that are loaded and hot. My urgency is to be an effective leader in bringing an end to this crisis. And I give these questions all the time that to me undermine my urgency. - And the answer to that question is objectively yes. It is yes. Benjamin Netanyahu is a war criminal. And I think it is so dismissive of Jewish people. And I think Benjamin Netanyahu makes Jews less safe worldwide. And I think he is one of the biggest promoters of anti-Semitism because of his actions. And I think it's really rich for democratic politicians to say we oppose anti-Semitism. And then they support a person who is committing genocide in the name of Jewish safety. And I'm so proud of voices like yours because you actually are Jewish. And there are others who have spoken out and said not in our name. And that's what it takes. The same thing with, I think, what's happened to the Christian religion. It's gonna take people like James Tolerico who's running for Senate in Texas. He was a big Christian guy. I mean, way too religious for my taste, but he said he's not gonna take APEC many. And he needs to remind these Christians, wait, we're supposed to be radically empathetic. So Jewish people like you can remind Jewish people 'cause you have the credibility. You have the skin in the game to say, no, this was done to us. We are not going to do this. We should oppose this more than any other group on the planet. We should be the people who fight the most against this. Not do this. And so that's why I think brave Jewish people, and they're starting to become a chorus, but you were one of the first that stepped out. And I'm sure that you had to do a lot of mental gymnastics to go through that, but you did. And that gives other people the courage to really look at, 'cause there's the shit that you're told and that you're indoctrinated in, and then there's the truth. And I think that you and other thought leaders have helped people realize this is not keeping us safe. This is not good for anybody. This is genocide, you know? And so the Cory Booker answer and Cory Booker in general, and I mean this sincerely, Matt, it really broke my heart because I think in many ways he can be a great senator, But then you see, like, you know, said they just get so corrupted with the money. And it's just and he was dismissive. Oh, I haven't received that much APEC money. Well, if it's such a small amount, think it rid of it. But I agree with you that we need to make it a toxic admission. Anybody who is running in the Democratic Party who says they are taking APEC money, it needs to be disqualifying because you are 100% correct. If they will bend on that, then that just opens the floodgates and they will bend on everything because none of us are free until all of us are free. And you cannot cherry pick. I'm going to defend all of these human rights except for this one group. You can't do that. You have no credibility. And it's not a purity test. We're requesting credible messengers. Like you are a very credible messenger for Jewish people right now. You are. You have the credibility. I'm an atheist. You know, she's an atheist blah blah. But you are a very credible messenger for Jewish people. And I think that's important as we get through all of this fuckery of all this corporate money and this fascism. It's just driving me crazy, Matt. Well, thank you for calling me a credible messenger, but I'm never running for anything because I don't know. Like I do drug sometimes, you know, like that. You should. I did drags when I was young. You should do that. But I mean, I don't want to run for anything either, but I think in order to have a platform online, we need to be credible messengers. Yeah, yeah. You know, and so if we're not, then those voids are filled by bad actors. Sure. Like the Marjorie Taylor Greens. And then Candace Owens, she's so fucking weird. So after the whole Charlie Kirk thing, right? She had all these updates in these theories that I have to admit to you in the list. And I was like, what the fuck is crazy? Candace is talking about. Can I just say it like? Initially, people were saying like, oh, Candace Owens was while we're on the topic. People were saying Candace Owens was like the only one who seems to be like meaningfully mourning what seemed to be her best friend Charlie Kirk. And I agreed with that. It seemed like she was really torn up about it. And then she starts posting every single day on YouTube to the tune of millions of views, like Charlie Kirk secret, Charlie Kirk conspiracy, Charlie Kirk Mossad. And I was like, okay, you are really monetizing the death of who is supposedly your best friend. But then I thought a little bit like one step further. And I was like, you know what? You know who else was a grifter? Charlie Kirk. And that's what he would have wanted. 100%. 100%. But here's what so I'm watching her at one point. And then like four minutes into it, Matt, she shifts gears like a pro. And then she goes on like 15-minute tirade about Bridget McCrown. She thinks that Bridget McCrown, the wife of a manual macro is trans. And she goes bananas. And then I look down at the view count. And I realize like, oh my god, we are so fucked. We are so beyond fact that millions of people are watching this insanity. So it's, I mean the whole right wing world is nuts online. It is nuts. We just have to do it better and do it ethically, which is sometimes seems at odds with each other, but we try nonetheless. Jennifer, I want to probe you on another debacle, if you will, that the Democrats are experiencing, which I call Ezra Klein. I want to talk about Ezra Klein for a second. Someone recently commented on one of my episodes that they hope that I drag Ezra Klein in every episode. So we are continuing that streak just for a little bit longer. Ezra Klein, who is one of the most influential voices left of center at the moment, has been doubling and tripling and quadrupling down on his belief that Democrats should run pro-life candidates in red states if they want to win elections there. To be clear, he's saying Democratic candidates who are anti-abortion. I like to see us running pro-life Democrats again when Obamacare passed 40 House Democrats for pro-life. People got very upset about that. I get why, but I think it's worth thinking about this. He said this on his own show. He said this on The New York Times. He said this in The New Yorker. He said it to the bull work. And I texted you about this. And you said that it infuriated you. Only a man who has never had a pap smear or received a mammogram could say that. First and foremost, okay, I want to start with that. Secondly, we've done this in red states. I've been in a red state and we've run Democrats that are pretty much pro-life for governor for House. These they lose because at the end of the day, the people in red states are very indoctrinated into religion and being a Republican. They're not going to go vote for a Democrat who they know is lying by saying they're pro-life because they look for authenticity. And in Oklahoma, we've had many candidates that have tried to do this shit and they lose. What we haven't tried in red states is running an economic populist. We haven't tried that. And so his idea has already been battle-tested, but also, I would be remiss if I didn't share with you guys after Roe was overturned. Oklahoma did a total abortion ban and the stories of friends or friends of friends, acquaintances, of women who are 20 weeks pregnant, they go in for a routine ultrasound. The spine is out of the baby's body, blah, blah. The baby's not going to survive. The fetus is not going to survive. The doctor says in normal terms, we would immediately take you to do a DNC. I'm unable to do that right now, and I can't even advise you on this. So basically, their option is to deliver the baby and then watch it suffocate and die because the organs are outside of the body, or you have to go out of state. And then if you go ahead and deliver the baby, the fetus, it could prevent you from reproducing again. It could cause such damage to your reproductive system. And these are very real issues, but here's the fact you problem with that as we're going. Abortion ban disproportionately affect the poor. If I had a daughter in Oklahoma, and for whatever reason, my daughter was pregnant, and didn't want to carry the baby to term, I would fly her to California, I could call her at them because I have the money. I can do it. So it doesn't affect me, but it does affect disproportionately poor people. And so it's just such a bad idea from start to finish. It's so divorced from reality. It's wreaks of somebody who has never lived in a red state, and here's something else that your listener needs to know, Matt. All these women that say that they are pro-life, and I've been around these women my entire life. I've had abortions, and when their little darlings have gotten knocked up, they've driven their daughters to the abortion clinics, and their daughters have gotten abortions, because they would rather that than the gossiping of the people at the church and in their Bible studies that somebody was fucking around before they were married. So it's just not the solution, and also it is capitulating constantly to this patriarchal structure that we're going to go their way. We're going to keep going their way, and this is getting the electorate who I believe a center, center left to continually capitulate to minority rule. So I just think that is just so disrespectful to women, disrespectful to poor women, and divorced from the medical needs, and I just think men that aren't doctors and haven't had pap smears shouldn't be talking about this shit. That's what I think. Well, I mean, the thing that kills me about someone like Ezra Klein, people who always do this like, well, we just need to do more middling, and I'm pragmatic. I'm more pragmatic. The progressives, they don't understand how politics work. You have to be pragmatic to get the things that you want, but even if you're taking that stance, right, in the case of Ezra Klein, abortion is a uniquely winning issue for Democrats, including in red states. Even as all of these places, right, they moved far right on all sorts of other things, and they elected Trump. They still voted to protect abortion. This is from Jessica Valente on sub-stack. Kansas voters crushed an anti-abortion ballot measure with 60% of the vote in 2022, Ohio passed an abortion rights amendment in 2023. Missouri voters approved a pro-choice amendment in 2024. So it's like, I don't even know what Ezra Klein is trying to put forth here, but I do think it speaks to this like flailing nature of this like consultant elite class Democrat that will throw any group under the bus, Palestinians, trans people, immigrants, women in red states before that they frankly will tax the rich, and like what you're saying, do economic populism. There's what's really interesting about people in red states. When you pull them individually on certain issues, like in Oklahoma, around eight years or so, we had a ballot to make marijuana legal. And this is conservative Jesus Christ, Bible, Thump, Maga, dump truck state. Now, one county has gone blue in the last multiple political cycles. It doesn't get any more Maga than Oklahoma. The voters voted to legalize pot. What's interesting about red states is when you take individual issues, do you think there should be gun restrictions? The majority in Oklahoma say yes. Do you think that abortion to a certain point should be legal? The majority say yes. Hot leap. On an individual basis, red state electorates vote for the more progressive stance. Then, but they're so indoctrinated to be Republicans. It's a part of the culture. It's injected into the churches. It's injected into the system. Jesus and Republican. You have to live in a red state to understand this indoctrination in people. They will never vote for a Democrat, even though on the individual issues, they're more progressive than the Republican, because they've been indoctrinated not to do so, because the Republicans have been dangerously ambitious since Reagan. To do this, they went in through churches and started indoctrinating people into Republican dogma, and it's been wildly effective, Matt, wildly. But don't you think, I mean, I really am like pushing for this economic populism thing. I'm looking what Zoron is accomplishing here in New York City, and people are saying, "Oh, well, it's New York City." But he's speaking to people, I mean, just the other day, I was at a Zoron rally where there was a guy who got quite a lot of press coverage, but he was in a manga for Mom Donnie. I saw that. So interesting, I was on the subway home after that, and he was in my subway car, and I was like, "Huh." But it's because there's left-wing populism and right-wing populism, and on the right, it's someone like Trump, who addresses all of the desires of people to live dignified lives and have a cheaper cost of living, but then displaces the blame onto immigrants, or like trans-field hockey middle schoolers, or like whatever the fuck else, right? And then on the left, you also correctly identify people want to be able to live, and not have to have millions of dollars to do so, and the way that we're going to make that happen is by taxing billionaires. And so don't you think that that could. I don't know, you tell me, you're from these places. Do you think that could speak to people? I do. I think that we should look at James Talleriko, and what he's doing right now. What he's talking about in Texas, and I encourage your listeners to go to his Instagram, and there's some clips. The biggest divide in our country is not left versus right. It's top versus bottom. Billionaires want us looking left and right at each other so that we're not looking up at them. He is reminding Christians number one that Jesus was radically empathetic, because there's a whole effort on the right wing now to say empathy is toxic, and you can dive into that, it's fucking crazy. And then he's talking about economic populism. He's talking about the 1% that we need to be concerned with, or not the trans people, not that less than 1%, it's the billionaires. And he's really gifted at this, but here's what you're correct, Matt, because there's something that Bernie, Zoran, and AOC can all do. They can all get triple Trumpers to cross over and vote for them. So the Canary's already in the coal mine, you know? So in Oklahoma, in South Carolina, in Alabama, get you a good old Christian that is an economic populist and run that and say abortions not my business. That speaks well with country folk. We just mind our own business. And I think instead of running Republican lights that are never ever ever going to win, run a good old Christian, that is an economic populist in the South. That would be my advice to Ezra Klein, and that would be my advice to the Democratic Party, because I think they could win. And you can look at Andy Bercher and Kentucky. He's one twice as governor, and he didn't throw trans kids under the bus, and his justification for not doing it is that his faith tells them not to judge people. And his faith instructs him not to bully people, and he stood up for women's rights. So we already have candidates that are doing this, but I just think they're going about it the whole way, and I think Ezra Klein's stance is a capitulation in the wrong direction. It's a regressive capitulation at that. And I always say like, and I think you're echoing this too, people who want Republican, like you can just vote Republican. You don't have to get the diet Republican. Exactly. I have one more kind of question that I want to ask you, get your hot take on. I have older members of my family who are like liberals, Democrats, they watch CNN, the whole thing. But they, for example, are scared to embrace someone like Zoran, because they see like Democratic Socialist next to his name. And they've bought into the fear mongering about that largely from places like CNN or the New York Times outlets that are owned by an ultimately cater to power. Maybe liberal power, maybe power that believes in a certain level of rights for minorities, maybe anti-Trump power, but power no less, billionaires no less. Power that is threatened by someone like Zoran who on top of wanting to protect those minority groups also wants to tax billionaires, so the rest of us can live truly dignified lives. These members of my family, to be clear, they are by no means billionaires. It would be in their best interest to support someone like Zoran. But they're so like center liberal-pilled, I guess. What would you as someone who I think is really, really good at speaking to this type of person? What would you say? I would say that unregulated capitalism brought us Trump. Come on, Jennifer. I'm just as shallow and pretentious as the rest of them. Capitalism has not been sustainable. It is not a sustainable model. FDR did all of these social services because capitalism had failed. And so he created social safety nets. So if you want to retain some semblance of our country. You have to give and take because the trajectory that we are on is straight to oligarchy. And when you get to oligarchy, then the dictator starts killing and taking over other businesses, et cetera, and it's nothing like what we have now. And you also have to have empathy for working class people that work just as hard as everybody else, sometimes harder like day laborers that putting roofs on houses and construction work. And they're not getting paid. Their wages are not going up. And it tells us a lot about who we are as a country by how we pay people. And if we don't ever raise our minimum wage, but we keep lowering taxes for the rich, come on, man, you know, so I think you have to approach it. I don't think you can just say capitalism is horrible because people are going to be like, whoa, because there's the knee jerk. Yes. And so you have to say, it's not sustainable. I almost think that it's a mistake for people to call it democratic socialism. I think from a branding perspective, it would move a lot quicker if they called it regulated capitalism, which are both kind of the same thing. But most of these people don't even know what socialism is. They don't realize they're Medicare, they're Medicaid, the post office, IWAs, TSA, they don't realize that socialism. But I think that you can't just go in with these people and break their hearts immediately. You have to gingerly say, this isn't sustainable, man. All these billionaires getting all these tax breaks. And then all these corporations fucking us over all the time. That's bullshit. I mean, I like capitalism as much as the next person, but God, it sure doesn't seem like it's going to be sustainable. I think that's a better way to approach it. Sometimes people on the left, I'm guilty of this. My God, am I guilty of this? You can just go in and just like heartbreak. It's better, I think, to gingerly bring people, especially if they're already liberal and they're already anti-Trump. It's not that many more steps to get there. And I just like the idea of Zoran, that I've really embraced that he's really fighting for the voiceless, for the people that are the machinery and the engine that keep this city going, and I read the subway every day, and I look at all the faces. And I think there's going to be somebody who wants them to get a better wage. There's somebody who's fighting for them. And it makes me feel good. And in the United States, we have been indoctrinated that capitalism is amazing, and individualism is the best. Well, it turns out, unregulated capitalism is not sustainable, and collectivism is better. And I just, I don't know how to message, but the democratic socialism branding thing, it's going up in your generation and popularity, which is really, really good. But I think some people and maybe red states should message it. I'm not a political strategist, but if I was, I would say message it as regulated capitalism, so that these corporations can't give us poisonous chemicals and fuck us over. And so I think progress is incremental, but the one thing I hope the Democrats have learned from this Trump thing is it doesn't have to be incremental. If we ever get power again, put your foot on the gas pedal and tear shit up for good, for good, like put Humpty Dumpty back together again and keep all the broken down parts and really help people. That's what I would say. Jennifer Welch, a wine mom radicalized. I hope it's okay that I've like put that label on you. I hope that you, I hope that's okay. And when you get to be my age, you're given. the fact meters broken and you just don't give a shit hardly about anything. So my feelings don't get hurt, labels don't hurt me. So, you know what? And I'm happy to partner with people from different generations. And I'm happy to be a voice that surprises people, that is making other people think. And so many of our listeners are your age. And they've sent our podcast to their parents. And now it's something they share together, which is so cool. - That's what I'm pushing for, right? It is like in time for the next election, we have created these new litmus tests that will actually allow for a party that gets shit done. That stands for something that stands for people. That stands for the working class. That stands for minorities. And that can win, not in spite of those things, but because of them. - Yeah, and I agree with you. Right now is the time to criticize. Right now is the time to move the party. Right now is the time to primary people. Right fucking now. If they move the Republican party all the way to dementia, where everybody's just walking around normalizing it, we can move our party all the way to the AOC Bernie Zoron, because it takes care of more people. It's more just, it's more civilized, it's kinder. It's a better place for all of us to live. - Jennifer Welch, where can people find more of you? And I hope that they do. - Okay, so I've had a podcast, it's all the socials. And I have a darling lesbian millennial named Kylie that runs all that stuff. She knows how to do all of that. You wanna follow me? Personally, it's at M-I-Z-Z at Miz Welch. And I did that like long time ago. Like the day Instagram came out and I know why that was my name. Thought it was cute at the time. And I'm not very good at posting, but follow me there. - And if you have made it through this episode, thank you so much. I don't love to like belabor the point of electoral politics and the Democratic party on this podcast. I like talking about culture and where it intertwines with politics more. But I have been wanting to talk about this with Jennifer in particular for so long. And I also have been wanting to really just flesh out a pack on this podcast for a long time because I think that it would radicalize a lot of people who aren't quite there yet. I love you so much. And until next time, stay fruity.