The lasting legacy of Rush drummer Neil Peart + reaction to Ed Sheeran's apology

In our time is a world class seminar every week. Why was Jeremy a lonely snail? What were lines doing in York in the third century? I'm Misha Glenny and every week I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world. It's one of the first times really that you consistently see someone painting teeth. I know that sounds bonkers. If I was going to define mathematics, I would say it's the study of structure. In our time, listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a cbc podcast. I'm Aluminum with my mood and this is commotion. I look when it comes to Canada's contributions to rocked-over history. No one comes close to this guy. Come on. Honestly, it kind of feels like a crime to interrupt the song itself. That is Tom Sawyer. That is Rush. And on the drums, none other than Neil Peart himself. Neil is often talked about as the greatest rock drummer of all time. There's a brand new documentary about him coming out tomorrow. It's called Neil Peart. No one's disciple. Musicians Merrick Tyler are music critic Mara Donsett are here to talk about this documentary. Merrick, Mora is good to see you guys. How's it going? Hello. It's good. Hi, it's good to see you. Listen, I feel like music fans admire Neil and then musicians who revere Neil. And then drummers are in a different category in terms of how they talk about Neil Peart. Merrick also, with you, you're a drummer. Who was Neil Peart to you, pal? Well, for 30 years, I've learned that I've mispronounced Neil's name. I've been saying Neil Peart as in Pearl. Yeah. It's pure. I, I, yeah, I'll, you and me both, you and me both. You know what, growing up, I wasn't even a Rush fan. Even when I started playing drums, I didn't, I didn't like Rush. They were the old people's music. I had mixed tapes and I learned to like, love and rockets and the replacements and violent fans. That's what I was into. Not 12-minute epics. It was my brother, my older brother. He always followed your older brother. But he worked at a music store in Prince Albert's Saskatchewan. And they had this huge Neil Peart banner on the wall. And it was this huge poster of these drums. And I literally would look at these drums for about an hour, every time I went in there, trying to dissect them. And then I read this book in the nine, or in the nine, it's called The Masked Rider. And I realized I was secretly falling in love with someone. Like, this guy's into motorbikes. And he's into sci-fi. And he's into drumming. And I, am I into this guy? And I, like, reluctantly say, okay, I am. So for me, Neil Peart was like this closeted person that I, like, you know, that I don't like, oh, no, I like them. And then I, then I dove into the music. Yeah, there's something about looking the images of Neil behind a set and going, like, that's not a set, that's a spaceship. Like, but stuff that you sort of, you're sitting behind, it looks like a gigantic control console where every single thing has its place. And there's something really impressive about that. Um, let's just get an idea with this new documentary. It's like, I just want to quickly play you guys a part of the trailer. Look who's here. Neil loved his drum brothers. So bringing them together for a jam and to talk about Neil feels like the right way to honor his legacy. I can't play without looking at you. And I can't look at you without smiling. I'm already seeing the documentary. How are you feeling with this movie? I really enjoyed it. I have to say, just like, I'm not, like, as die hard as many of my friends and colleagues are. Um, I saw Rush once, but it was when I was in high school. And I went for the opener. Mr. Big. So like, I'm back in the day. But it was like really fascinating to just, like, learn so much about him. And, um, you know, just realized how towering his school was. But also just like, what a, what a guy he was. Like, he was the glue for that band. It seemed like. And it really made me want to listen to the band more, which is, which was like great timing. Because like, I always feel like their music sounds very autumnal. And I watched the documentary just as like this cold snap hit here in Boston. So it was just like, really perfect. So I'm going to definitely revisit their catalog and probably kick myself for not paying attention up during their set back in 1991. I'm also just delighted by Merrick being delighted by the word 'autumnal'. I think back to the reaction that he was like, I was wondering if I should google it right now. Like, what does that mean? I just, just, just, just of autumn quality. You know, like, so that's the, that's, and I agree with you. I feel like, I feel like when I listen to Rush I go, this is leather jacket music. You know, like we're sort of in that territory, like that's the general. I, I, Merrick, when you, when we, when we heard in that clip, right, is that like a, the whole documentary is basically a bunch of set pieces that are jam sessions. We've got Rush jamming with a bunch of different drummers. You've got Chad Smith with the Red Hot Chili Peppers. He got Stuart Copeland with the police. He got Danny Carey from Tool. But during those jam sessions, those guys are filling in for Neil. And as they fill in and sort of try to take on Neil's parts, what's the thing that you learn about Neil as a musician? Well, I think you actually see it in the scene with Danny, like a tools Danny Carey. Yeah, this guy's a monster monster player. And he was a deer in the headless. He was, he was playing, you know, 2112 with Alex and Gettie. And he blows the intro. Yes. And Getties are, I think Alex, I think Alex stopped it and had to teach him how the intro grows. Yeah. Like in pot music, like wringles star, you know, they serve the song. They, uh, the, the, the, they don't step in the vocals. They build the song over three minutes. And it's perfect. Neil did that over what 20 minute epics, like he guided and navigated the entire song. So he, and he did that like with these wild time signatures and never stepping on the melody. And probably because he wrote the lyrics. So he knew exactly what was coming along. But for me, it was watching that scene of Danny Carey just being, oh, what have I got myself into? Also, like what I think about like funky time signatures. The guy that comes to mind actually is Danny Carey. So to watch him, to watch him to blow the intro, as you said, to 2112, and then have Alex girl, like, no, no, we got to guide you through this. Let me teach you at the timing of the song. Like, are you telling Danny Carey what the time signature is of the song? This has never happened in the history of Danny Carey's, you know, life. But there's something about that scene when you watch him go, like, oh, that just tells us the conno musician that Neil was. Mora, I'd never brought up something that's really significant to rush there. Right, which is the idea that Neil was also the band's lyricist. He was not just the drummer. And sometimes I think like the idea of just the drummer is like, oh, that's somebody who kind of carries a song along, right? But, but, but there's something about Neil, where he's like, he's the central sort of driving force of the song, and also the person who writes the lyrics. And also the same time, he's in some novels, he's written the memoirs, a bunch of memoirs. People know him as a drummer, but as a writer, tell us about who Neil was. Well, you know, he was a voracious reader, which if any of my students are listening, that's step one toward being a good writer, just a reminder. But, you know, I think that like his knowledge was just so vast, like, I was reading essays of his after I got real like this documentary really made me interested in like rush and like just his whole thing. Like I was reading like old issues of modern drummer and stuff. Like it was amazing. You know, and I think like he was really great to like sort of bring together all the ideas in his head, which were many, and communicate them in these kind, you know, especially in rock songs. Doing that, communicating big ideas into like memorable and almost aphoristic lines is just really impressive. And I think also, you know, he was always sort of like trying to evolve, which I think is also a sign of a really good writer. It's somebody who's always curious and questioning. I feel like that there's no maybe greater illustration of how effective this documentary is and you going, I saw Rush once, but really I was there for the opener. That's like where you started, and then you kind of come to me like, oh, let me find some issues of modern drummer in order for me to read some of Neil Peer's essays in that magazine. Like because there's something very effective about stepping inside of the mind of someone like Neil. I'm like, this is a, you know, like this is the closest you can go into get in terms of what it feels like sort of like for him to hang out with his band and how other people sort of perceived him. Merrick, what about you, was something in this documentary that kind of surprised you about Neil as a person? Well, yeah, first, I think he, he was as like notoriously private guarded person. Yeah, he hid in plain sight in front of everyone in front of thousands. I mean, he literally hid behind his kit, but he also like showed us everything. And so when I was watching it, I was like, in the 70s, he gave us like this bounce intellect of emotion and and and drums with 2112 behind the gangs in the rototoms in the 80s. I mean, his lyrics reflected the Cold War and the all the anxiety. But and then on his drums, that's when he introduced electronic drums in midi. So you got to see this like, the, you know, that contradiction actually happening. And then the 90s, like he humbled himself big and said, you know, I can be better. And he, he went to Freddie Groober and learned how to play all over again. Like he went to traditional grip, which is like learning to write with your opposite hand. Yeah. The height of your powers. And then in the 90s, he went through tragedy in the 90s and the early odds. And then you see a person hiding in front of on stage, in front of thousands in plain sites. And I think he shared everything. So what I thought was a guarded person, I actually think was a very, very open person. And you can see it's emerging as art. There's a, there's a really compelling part where you see this in some of the sort of footage that emerges in that dock more, where, you know, he says, oh, I've arrived at a place where Vriesha pretty good, you know, time precision, but the rhythm just was not feeling correct. And that's the part that America's talking about, in terms of going to say, I'm going to go talk to some jazz musicians about this, about how to sort of interact with the beat in a different way. And you go, hey, you're already one of the greatest drummers on the planet. The idea that you go, I think I need to relearn this art almost entirely from scratch. It does reflect that humility, but also reflects, I think an intensity, Mora, right? Oh, absolutely. Yes, I think he was a very deliberate person. I mean, like, and you, it's reflected in his drumming, obviously, but even like the part of the documentary where he was like talking about to his friends and, you know, intimate about like his memorial service and like planning his memorial service. Like that, I think, is also indicative. But yeah, like, I mean, the Freddie Gruber thing, you know, that was such a big, like, well moment for me because I feel like he was in his 40s. And like he was, like he said, like, recognized as like, you know, not one of the best, but probably the best drummer in the world. I'm like, already, the fact that he was, you know, the fact that he was humble enough to like be like, I need to just like, what did he write? This is for modern drummer, see? After working in my own idiom for so long, I had begun to feel that I had pushed my envelope as bad as far as I could. Yeah. And like so many other people, I mean, you hear like, you know, late records from a lot of bands and they are on cruise control. He was not. He was always trying to do something, make himself better. And it's really, really, it was inspiring. Yeah. He didn't phone it in. He did not phone it in. I loved it. Like, if they reference that point in the making, when they're shooting the video, he played the song at intensity on every tape. Every tape. Yeah. He was like, should we have it on playback, he's like, no, no, we're going to do it in real life right here on the set, 100%. I will say as you watch this documentary, Merrick, there's something to me that it changes how I thought about his legacy, which is that I sort of knew it externally, which is to say I knew it from how other drummers talk about him. I feel like I know him a little bit more in terms of just like how the work came together. How do you think this watching this documentary changes? How do you think about his legacy? I love art that keeps on giving. Like, I love art that you come to years later. So after watching this, I revisited the albums with friends in, you know, listening to 21, 12 records and it just as I started learning all over again, I was like, oh, listen to that. Oh, listen to this. And that's great. So when I think of legacy in this environment, you're hearing an artist keep teaching and an audience that's available, vulnerable, just like he was to keep hurting. It's truly a starting thing to watch, like some of the best drummers in the world try to go, oh, I actually don't know how he did that. Let me just try to figure it out and then try it and go, no, it was way harder than I thought it was going to be. Let me try that again and then fail at that. And then you really like get this sort of second hand, oh, wow, he really did transcend the art form in a bunch of different ways. Or last word to you, when you sort of watch this movie, what, how do you think about Neil Peart's legacy? I feel like he was a drummer, a writer, lyricist, friend, and a person who helped make arena rock even bigger than it already was yet stayed incredibly humble and curious. Yeah. And I think that that's, you know, just amazing to think about. I think that is a very lovely place to leave it. I really appreciate your time. Thank you guys so much for, for being on the show today. Thank you. Yeah. Take care. Of course, Merrick Tyler is a musician, hailing from 3 to 6 territory. You can find his solo project, Asco, wherever you get your music, Mara Dawson is a freelance music journalist in Boston. And by the way, you can stream Neil Peart, no one's disciple on CBC gem starting tomorrow. And you can listen to Tom Powers' interview with Rush for Q, wherever you get your podcast. I'm El Amine Abdul Mahmoud. This is commotion. We'll be back in just a moment. Hey, it's Danielle and Callie, your host of In Three, Canada's number one entertainment news podcast. I've spent more time with Taylor Swift than most other people were media pros. We hosted the Variety screening festies, how we has become the hottest Baxter boy. Said no one but you ever, ever. And insiders who have seen it all, I R L, Oscars Golden Globes, you name it. We have been there with access to the biggest talent. Welcome to In Three Patrick J. Adam. The fun starts in three. You know who's not going to survive this? Dad talk. Oh, new episodes, Mondays and Thursdays. And this is commotion. Last week on the show, we talked about Ed Sheeran and Macklemore. But here's just a really quick recap. While he was opening for Ed Sheeran, Macklemore said free Palestine on stage. And then Macklemore was pulled off the rest of the tour. Ed said that he's because he got some pressure from venue owners. Then Ed Sheeran got a lot of backlash. All of his opening acts dropped out of the tour. His own backing band dropped out of the tour. And on Saturday, Ed Sheeran had to continue said tour. He did the first show. His first show since this whole thing erupted. My pal, David Dennis Jr. is here. He's got some thoughts about how that went down. David Dennis Jr. Come back to the show, friend. Thanks for having me. Why? Why? It's always celebrity shenanigans. It's always like shenanigans are happening. Let's bring David to talk about shenanigans, just not complete celebrity nonsense. The problem is that you're exceptional at talking about celebrity shenanigans. That's actually the issue. The issue? I didn't do this, David Dennis Jr. You did this. Okay. I think it's a bit of a. It's a bit I know. I know. I know. It's a bit of a long statement, but I think it's maybe useful to orient ourselves by playing most of Ed Sheeran's sort of statement off the top. So here is the thing that Ed Sheeran had to say when he took the stage, Lincoln Financial field in Philly on Saturday night. I tried my career not to be a police officer at any point, because I want my music and shows to be about unity, not division, about humanity, not politics. But this is a humanitarian issue, and I can't find how I feel about it any more. What happened in Israel, and at the moment used in classical, on October 7th, was horrific and compounded centuries of Jewish pain. What is happening in Gaza is catastrophic and unjustifiable and disproportionate. My heart has been broken by the scale of devastation and loss of civilians' lives. And the systemic injustice we're seeing unfold in the West Bank can't be overlooked. I already speak to people across the spectrum to work out how to make the contribution that helps victims of these terrible times and listening and learning, because I do not know now. And listening and learning, because I do not know enough, David Dennis Jr., I feel like as you were, as the state was playing, I was just watching you sort of shake your head a little bit. And so I feel like I maybe know the answer. But I'll ask you this, did Ed Sheeran's statement meet the moment? No. Well, it met the moment of like we predicted what he was going to say before he said, like there's a parody, there was a rapper, a frack about a rapper who made a parody, which is like, he just says, when I say Palestine, you say it's very complicated. Like he basically did all of the things that the parody said he was going to do. And Ed Sheeran, this is like if you chat GBTed, how to hit all of the stereotypical marks of a non-apology, apology, non-statement statement that you read from a teleprompter, instead of saying anything remotely close from the heart, you're using sort of platitudes that don't mean anything. There's a terrible world and terrible things that happened with nobody's doing the terrible things and just terrible things that have happened. And all of that is cap it off with listening and learning, which people have been making fun of listening and learning for as a phrase, for like a decade. This is like the thoughts and prayers. Like it's like you're still saying thoughts and prayers now. And you're saying listening and learning. This is probably as bland milk toast of a statement that you could possibly make. I'll end up doing this, let's say. It's easy to laugh. I think it's easy to laugh and look at this statement and go like, oof, it was going to miss the mark in so many different ways. But like, in an honesty, is there anything that he could have done to save face, do you think? No. And I think that that's kind of the problem, is that would you people react to these moments by how can I save face? Like, people are dying at Sharon. Like that's the thing. Like, you're focused on how can I reclaim my tour? How can I get back in good graces? How can I get quote unquote uncanceled? We're talking about children are being bombed and murdered here. So like, there's nothing really that you can do to save face. So that should not actually be your main concern. But the problem is it is his main concern. Instead of like, probably like shutting the hell up and donating as much money as you possibly can to stop these kids in Palestine. like that's kind of the only thing that's that's you really can do at this moment. What I have seen is I've seen fans outside the venue at Ed Sheeran store going, you know what? He did it. He covered the things that he had to cover. But what kind of reaction are we seeing online to that apology? Basically, what we're doing right now is just making fun of it and saying that this didn't do it because like the people who were going to an Ed Sheeran concert want to have a reason to keep going to an Ed Sheeran concert. Like they don't want to hold this due to the fire. So they said he did it. We're done. We're moving on. I can go and like sing these songs in peace without worrying about it, especially if at the end he's going to apologize to me for saying, for bringing up the fact that these children are being killed. Like that's like that's going to make me feel even better about it. The thing that you're referencing is that at the end of the show, he had an apology for the apology. That one did not require teleprompter. But he did say, you know, before we end the show, I also want to just apologize for having to start the show the way that we started it, which is to say, I'm sorry for having to bring anything hard up in this environment whatsoever. Honestly, like that one felt more sincere to me, which is like not a positive place in terms of how your reactions are being received. I want to talk about the piece that you wrote. You wrote this piece for Anscape.com and your piece you say, while it may feel like a victory for people protesting for any cause, to know that a massive touring star like Ed Sheeran can take such PR and logistical hits, I'm not totally convinced. Where do you mean by that? Well, so we're all on the internet piling on Ed Sheeran, right? And like talking about the things that he didn't do and the things that did wrong and all that stuff. And that's fine and well. I think the problem is Ed Sheeran, like, holds sort of a specific space in pop culture and celebrity. And the fact that we don't know, he doesn't like, he's sort of an institution. He has billions of streams, but there's no real Ed Sheeran hive. Like there's no online presence of people who are right or die for Ed Sheeran. Like if I put Ed Sheeran sucks on threads, I'm not going to have like a million respond to you. Nobody's going to respond to me in the way that you have like Nicki Minaj or Kanye West or Chris Brown or Beyonce or Jay-Z, like that's not like he doesn't hold that space, right? And so for us, it's easy for us to say these things about Ed Sheeran now. But yet, Chris Brown is touring the country pretty much unabated and getting congressional honors and, you know, the meantime. Kanye West is selling out stadiums all over the place. Jay-Z is like on his, you know, making his political statements that are not hitting the market. We're all fine. We're going to find ways to justify our faiths. And so my question is, if Ed Sheeran, if you're faith, Beyonce, whoever had done exactly what Ed Sheeran had done, would you be piling on and would you be holding their feet to the fire or would you be justifying it because that is your faith? Like that is the central question I think and how we determine how this stuff looks going forward because it is very easy for me to feel good about the fact that I can, you know, blast Ed Sheeran for not speaking up about Palestine and doing what he, you know, did to Maclamore and all that stuff. But would I have that same energy for somebody that I like? And that's really the difference between that fandom and that standing on business. Like, I'm not taking Ed Sheeran's songs off my playlist because I have no Ed Sheeran's song on a playlist to take off, right? But would I do the same if there was somebody on my playlist and I had to feel that energy? Like that, I think that's where the rubber meets the road. And I think what we're seeing is not enough people meeting that moment necessary to hold our faves to the same standard. I think there is something about Ed Sheeran, the sort of like it does not end under the same kind of fandom as all those other artists that you mentioned. But also he's incredibly popular, right? But he's incredibly popular in the sense of like a lot of people go like, I would like to go to that show, I'd like to have a good time. And then I'm not overly concerned about how Ed Sheeran's politics are not a reflection of my politics, whereas maybe that, you know, you might take that on if you, you know, look at some of your other faves. I take that point. I just want to also give you an opportunity to comment about the fact that like, Michael Moore and Ed Sheeran, like we're talking about stadiums that some of those other artists are playing, right? Like Kanye West is playing some of those stadiums that Michael Moore is getting pulled off of. So there's something of a double standard of play here in terms of the idea of like who is getting all of this kind of attention? What do you, what do you make of that double standard? Yeah, like we're learning what would like is going to force the billionaires to actually speak up. Like it is very telling at a time when Kanye West, now, like we can do the nuance thing of Kanye West and do this on, on stage. He wasn't, you know, he's headlining. Michael Moore's not whatever. Fact of the matter is one dude made a song praising Hitler. It's literally called Hell, Hell, Hell, Hell, Hell, Hell. Yes, a year ago, he made a song praising Hitler, put out a like two paragraph apology and he is going to these same stadiums. And Michael Moore essentially, like when you look at what he actually said, it was, hey, I don't want babies to get murdered. Like, I don't want a genocide to happen. And he got pulled. Like these two things are happening concurrently at the same time. And we're seeing billionaires mobilize to get one dude off. And them kind of not saying anything about another. Under the guise of like this anti-symmetism, the guy made a song praising Hitler and when I'm talking about Kanye West. Like these are tremendous double standards. And there's no real way to justify one and not the other. I think that is a good place to leave it for now. I don't think the story is over. So David Dennis Jr., we're going to come back to you. I'm sorry to say. I'm sorry to say, but we'll do this again. Yeah, come back to me. In the meantime, I'll be listening and learning. David Dennis Jr. is a journalist and cultural critic based in Atlanta. Ed Sheeran's loop tour continues this coming Sunday and Monday. Act, Robert Kraff's Gillette Stadium in Fox Room, Massachusetts. In the meantime, I'm Ella Meene of the Mahmoud. This show is called "Comotion." We'll be back tomorrow. We would love to see you then. [Music] For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca/podcasts.