The Last Temptation of Christ with Jamelle Bouie

if i was a woodcutter i'd cut if i was a fire i'd burn but i'm a podcast and i love that's good that's the only thing i can do thank you that was the one i figured you would do and i think that's a very good uh willem i was doing older christ willem yeah i was doing older i'll admit it's hard to do young willem i'm something of a woodcutter myself something of a woodcutter myself i feel like i lost it on that one yeah is that always funny i think it is right even though marvel tried to ruin it by obviously like making it like an applause line in the spider-man movie can't ruin it can't ruin it i'll say part of what makes it funny is actually i mean as a line it's funny but it's the face he's making yep the kind of like very sort of like oh i'm just your friendly neighborhood norman osborne we we did a raimi spider-man with you obviously it was one of those things that raimi just understood of just like when to ask willem defoe to smile beyond that as as spider-man has been back in the discourse and people talking about the new movie people you know will always post the the fight in the first spider-man yes where they're just fucking wailing on each other in the uh churchyard or whatever right and people are just like nothing looks like this anymore in these comic book movies where they're just beating the shit out of each other yeah and you're like yeah that rocked yeah take me back return you know what else i mean the thing we were surprised by re-watching that movie is there's no fight in that film that lasts longer than like 90 seconds like spider-man 2 broke that wall of oh shit their amount their amounts of money now invested right in letting these fight sequences go on for like a year and a half and then they're like oh we're gonna do it for 10 minutes and when you got to the subway sequence it felt thrilling right but that church fight is so short right it's just brutal and it's direct bang bang you're right it's it's brutal and it feels because the brutality gives it like these real stakes like oh he'll kill spider-man if he can't he'll he will he's crazy i'll say this but i will say also this yeah when the military is like we don't want to do your goblin glider and instead we have like and then they roll out the worst guy you've ever seen yes horrendous he's got he's like this dumb goggles yeah and they're like we're gonna if i'm norman osborne i also am like the hell guys i built this company yeah my thing is objectively better than this thing yes wait are they just doing a coup because he's crazy is that what it is it's like you're kind of too crazy i'm gonna tell you this you got kind of like a willem dafoe vibe that's unsettling everyone it is i didn't foresee willem uh norman talk but i should have of course we had to yeah no because it's it's obviously willem da five years as a villain and or an old coot oh he's a rent-a-coot right aquaman was kind of like it's sort of almost coot but it's the rare like he's not neither villain nor coot that's an attempt at a at a gary oldman jim yeah mentor right right i would i mean i would cast i mean speaking of old coot someone should make an old prospector movie cast willem dafoe wow that's the prospect fine live action what he's round up put willem dafoe in a fat suit have him play stinky pete he really is he's going coot mode he's going coot mode but this is to say it just is wild to watch this film from 1987 uh 1988 is it not yes 1988 and to be like he was perfect as jesus yeah well i mean so beautiful yes my understanding is that scorsese had seen him in platoon correct where he plays a very sensitive right he's an innocent almost right character and spiritual right yes no that's that's a good point like it was a different willem but part of him in platoon is like is this guy a little scary there's even it's tapping into that which this movie is in a way in a really smart way yes of course absolutely is he crazy the whole thing is and i god this is gonna be like a blasphemous episode or whatever i know but like obviously one must consider if jesus christ was was mentally ill like if if if one not not in this movie so much but yeah that's it well some of the miracles i watch and i go jesus you're crazy for that one one of my favorite wikipedia articles because of because of the image they use one of my favorite wikipedia articles mental health of jesus he looks sad where they have picked a very sad 15th century painting of him looking very that is such a frown yeah um the question of whether the historical jesus was in good mental health is a subject of consideration for psychologists historians and writers i mean i guess that makes sense i'm you know i am willing to grant jesus good mental health when i think of like authors of the christian bible who were clearly insane i'm thinking john patmos who wrote the revelation of saint john but we know it's the book of revelations um what do you mean book of revelations this is just yeah it's totally normal blockbuster shit that's just great one thing the movie i mean i i imagine we'll talk about this a ton but one of the things that i actually if i'm really interesting about the movie is how much it's trying to capture the strangeness of the movie is how much it's trying to capture the strangeness of the movie is how much it's trying to capture the strangeness of the movie is how much it's trying to capture the strangeness of the movie is how much it's trying to capture the strangeness of the movie is how much it's trying to capture the strangeness of the movie is how much it's trying to capture the strangeness of the movie how about how people really got riled up about jesus since he was around and so i guess it's not surprised that people got riled up because the movie's like yeah see people have always been fucking riled up about this he just makes people go talking about him riles people it's true and we're gonna have zero trouble talking about him today on blank check with griffin and david i'm griffin i'm david wow this is a podcast about faith about deep spirituality and about filmography as directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want and sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they get denounced by the church baby sure this is the second time martin scorsese feared for his life third what are we talking about his general health or just kind of like people being after him great question okay so if we're talking about his general health this is like the one million yeah he seems to me to be quite neurotic a little sickly a little neurotic did too many drugs you know at a certain point in his life what are the what's the other uh well i guess there was a lot of hand wringing around taxi driver sure there was some yeah yeah interesting and then what was the academy awards ceremony oh it was the raging bull year that ceremony happens the day after the um william hinkley oh so he was freaked out yes he was going to get attacked next yes that right 1980 oscars are even are delayed because of the assassination attempt on oh yeah okay i i guess i kind of get it still i i agree i agree i think people should chill out i think martin scorsese is good at making movies yes and we should be grateful that he makes them for us i mean i don't know if the podcast can handle that kind of incendiary content griffin you saying he's good at making movies i mean come on now i'm i'm ready to to rouse some rebels here today i will also say i had this thought while watching the movie the fucking cojones on him to make this thing as much as i've been watching the movie i've been i just said i think people's outrage around this was kind of stupid this is like he knew what he was fucking getting into he doesn't he didn't though 15 years of his life i know like tilting at this windmill beyond the fact that this was just going to be an impossibly difficult movie to make for an asthmatic sure all that sand horrible conditions true i just given i can't think of a modern filmmaker who would take this big of a risk how do you see this film before i had not this is my first time watching okay yes i've seen this a couple times and introduce our guest place this is a mini series on the films of martin scorsese who i think makes good films yep crazy boy it's called podcast fellas it is not called the pod the cast temptation of pod no cast temptation the pod people wanted that but today we are talking about bringing the pod out the cast i mean bringing it yeah it's a good movie yeah but it would people would think it was pretty absurd of us to name our martin scorsese series after bringing out the dead as that's what it's called cast fellas is what we are it's who we are at our core today we're talking about the last temptation of christ his most controversial film i suppose i mean i don't know kundun maybe because of the chinese government i if you're going by pure numbers i guess you could go for kundu but i don't know how many actual chinese people were mad about kundu like i haven't really reached the general population we show up in shanghai what do you think about kundun i'm not sure it was a he has people protesting outside the theater movie though yeah what was i was there protests about a movie in the last couple years i remember being at lincoln center and like there were some nuns protesting a movie and it was like six nuns yeah you know it was like really oh it was um benedetta and i was like oh my god like i was not like disturbed at all i was like you're mad about this like there's so much to be bad i think we made this point in our episode we were like it kind of shows that they just can't be bothered anymore yeah it was like six compared to last temptation you know tits in a jesus movie and i was like yeah sure you guys do your thing i'll see you later and verhoeven said no don't worry give me the money it's going to be a normal movie about nuns they will wear clothes over their breasts give me the money no they don't just kidding the tits are on display all the time um so we're here to talk about the last temptation of christ uh one of my favorite marty movies jamal bowie big movie for me yes the great jamal bowie a friend from the new york times returned to the show far too long it's been a minute what was the last episode the hunt for red october the hunt for red that's a pretty good movie yeah very similar films very similar films well i mean you know i i check in years it's yeah true in late 80s yeah uh the hunt for october i think is 90 i think so yeah that sounds right yeah i check in on the uh the discord and stuff and people were like well what is jamal going to be back he'll obviously be back for master and commander i'm sorry about that no i think i think it's funny that sort of like well he did hunt for red october i know the other one ocean movie they're making you the boat guy he went under the sea now he must go on top of the sea yeah how many more boat movies are in our future we'll do tony scott crimson tide yeah you'll do the entire venom trilogy on patreon because you're our chief venom correspondent chief venom correspondent that is that is one of my proudest bit runs we've ever done on this show not to pat ourselves on the back but eddie brock reporter oh yeah people ring that up all the time yeah yeah yeah um i mean we need him back right now eddie yeah he blowed his white what's going on like imagine putting eddie with like heska you know what i mean just matching those wits like that'd be fun oh god eddie interviewing lettuce what let me ask you one more question why are you giving people diarrhea making everyone poop pete uh where are the missiles at where all missiles go just point them out to me i had a friend who had the poop thing the lettuce thing my sister had it yeah your sister had it too notable credit and uh i was like oh man what'd you eat and she's like well it was we i went on a hike and we ate some lettuce out of a bag oh come on i was like oh that probably that might be the culprit there it was not the cleanest like detective work impossible i wasn't even like i went to taco bell and i like you know got like a lettuce wrap or whatever i don't know i know taco bell was affected yeah but do you think taco bell was affected i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i think taco bell was actually quietly celebrating being like it's not just us anymore yeah right right right it's the fucking leaves it's not our fault we've we've actually moved down the diarrhea rankings i mean i've said this before not on this podcast but i've said in places if taco bell gives you diarrhea you're not eating enough fiber this is true it's it's it's so often the case that it's like right like the mistake was made before yeah i haven't had taco bell in a while i get so when i go grocery shopping on sundays there's a taco bell right by the grocery store and i just go by myself so my sunday my sunday treats and myself yeah it's taco bell for lunch but what do you get i get uh a chalupa with beans and i get either a cheesy gordita crunch yeah with beans i always veganize everything right right uh or i get um if you get like a bean and rice and cheese burrito you can get it fresco style so new cheese and they put like the the salsa in there and then you can ask for a grilled oh and that's pretty good the customizability hasn't been there in a while in a while yeah i need to i think i need to and the menu hasn't changed much right like taco bell sort of throwing things on i mean there was stuff that got backlash for being pulled from the menu that they've started working back in they're doing a lot of throwback menu stuff classics coming back god they always have us on the treadmill these fuckers they do here's what i tried the other day that was very good the tahini cheesy gordita yeah you know i saw that on their website and then uh that did look pretty good uh for the listener at home because we're not a video podcast what i just wanted to do is i just wanted to do a little bit of i just saw is ben did a sort of a three sets of eyebrows hit the ceiling it was this is what i'm saying we're all it's like instead of doritos locos they just they're jangling keys on us you could do that vegan so you're smiling yeah i've never seen you smile hey listen man i just i just want to live moss that's all i want my life we're trying our best to live moss as the world is not moss right now i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm sorry i'm sorry i wake up every morning and i push myself to think outside the bun that's all i do so um this is an episode on the last temptation of christ we're talking about last temptation of christ it's a big movie for me a big like david watching in college while he was like studying the bible as literature okay you know where i was like this is my favorite marty i'm so clever like you know what i mean like i feel like i'm making fun of college david sure it's not still your favorite but at the time i think goodfellas is the best score says yeah i think i you know as i get older yeah i'm sort of like fucking some of these things good fellas that's how i feel about taxi driver that's fine i think those are both right right he's yeah this is a this is right up there for me but i think it's a very special movie and this movie i've shown to friends over the years uh and i think this movie is it's not like a slog exactly but it's a bit of a slow starting movie and you're in it for a while being like wait i thought this was controversial and instead i feel like i'm just watching a jesus biopic i'm just watching the bible and then of course it has you know the the last temptation of christ happened in the in the last act of the movie and that's intriguing and then the end comes and i've had this experience with a few friends where they are suddenly like very moved by it and struck by the ending i find the ending so incredibly moving it is so transcended i think it's one of the most transcendent things he ever captured and i'm getting worked up just thinking about it and uh i listen i listen to it a lot I listen to Peter Gabriel's score for this all the time. I also think this is-- - One of the most influential film scores. ever it totally is i think this is also like and we haven't maybe even talking about this because we've mostly recorded so far 70s marty i guess no we've done mostly 80s we've done all the 80s too right this will this will finish the 80s right relatively in order his 70s movies to me i'm just kidding you know it's mean streets alice taxi driver new york new york and i'm counting raging bull like they all feel 79 production partly it's the deniro you know he's running through a lot of them and like street level raw right you know like even though new york new york's a little you know you know what i'm saying yeah and then like his 80s canon which i love so much which is king of comedy after hours color of money and this this feels this is such an 80s movie yes yes you forgot one other credit go ahead so much cocaine oh yeah yeah no the cocaine is is running to kick it i guess it's more 70s like raging bull is him kind of being like okay i gotta yeah yeah no and and but this is like even though this film is obviously an ancient period piece it feels so 80s to me in the best way the score the looks the cast the weird like eclectic like you know the special effects like i love all of that about it and i love marty's 80s because his 90s that's where he's like you know baroque right like that's what's like goodfellas cape fear casino age of innocence and kundun are a little he's playing the studio game a little more but like bringing out the depth of movies that are just like you know like you know like you know like you know like super high emotion long crazy you know and then uh so i'm i kind of i'm very fond of his smaller 80s and then 2000s is prestige elder 2000s is the oscar chase it's right it's it's gangsta new york aviator departed like that's it i think that's his entire shutter island shutter island 10 or 11 right and then like his 2010s are like beyond baroque shutter island hugo wolf of wall street again silence that's sort of sure the one you know an irishman like where he's like you can't say no like i can do whatever i want every movie's three and a half hours long yeah the performances are so dialed up like i love these movies yes they're great you know what what's your what's your marty history jamal my marty history my marty history is just years ago maybe 10 years ago now i just sat down i was like you know i've seen goodfellas a bunch but i just sat down i was like i'm gonna watch every single marty scorsese movie you're like david were you like a watch project yeah yeah so i just over the course of that year it was 2017 i just watched every marty movie and came away first like i mean this feel this feels it feels so cliche to say or it feels but i just like marty scorsese is great it's really just i came away thinking you're trying to get canceled there's something going on with this guy you yeah me to marty i'll put it this way i had a similar experience recently i went through a big duke ellington thing and i was just listening to nothing but duke ellington for months and i at some point i just thought to myself i was like duke ellington fucking rocks and like on the one hand it's like well of course of course he does he's the most influential american musician arguably of the 20th century but the the scale of influence and the important is importance can sometimes lead you to almost underrate these people it's like when you drink a really cool glass of water on a hot summer day right and you're like wait a second water is fucking awesome like i i take this for granted yo you just a glass of water i i think i think marty gets taken for granted it's taken for granted sometimes that we have we have this we have this guy making movies yes and then if you just sit and watch his stuff yeah you're like it's remarkable that this man has this longevity yes has produced this much excellent work has this much to say endless amounts maybe i need to listen to some duke ellington you really you really got to i don't like that guy uh uh anyway so that's that's basically my like my history with scorsese is i i spent a year watching all of his movies came to really love the work um the last temptation is one of the ones that i was particularly struck by both as a kid who grew up going to church um somebody still kind of goes to church and but also also from the level of i my main knowledge of the movie was that it was controversial yeah and then to go in and actually see it and i was like oh my god i'm gonna go to church i'm gonna go to church i'm gonna see it and just to kind of be like i don't understand what's controversial about this you you if you just like heard about this movie like on the street or whatever sure you were like okay so is about like jesus and he's like rolling big dice and he fucks hookers smoking fatties drives a big car like where they're just like oh is he just like in a gangster movie like because they're just making it sound like it's like oh it's disgusting what like you know it's like this filthy movie did you hear about this horrid film right jesus drives a big car that was one of your eight examples he's like a gangster in a big car you want what like a mini coupe certainly no big i'm sorry we can talk about but had you seen this movie before no i'd never seen it what's your relationship with jc yeah your dad's your dad raised you kind of like no religion right yeah yeah right totally atheist i've never really been to church i've obviously been for weddings yeah but i've never sat no but if you try to cross the threshold you're thrown out by and a voice goes i cast me out you shall not pass but i do come from a catholic family right my mom's side of the family extremely catholic almost a saint in your in your lineage there's almost jamal there's oh he's like trying to get that miracle yeah in my in my who is he again what's his name father mcginney mcginney mcginney mcginney mcginney michael john c john c john c mcginney one of the great jc's mcginney or they're like the original scrubs is recognized as a miracle the reboot we're waiting to see if the pope approved yeah he's blessed yes he's currently blessed we'll see you know fingers crossed um but my dad was such extreme atheist that he also really was against me learning anything about the bible so really all i know is from that rugrats episode yep with the uh the hanukkah episode the maccabees amazing that's kind of all i got yeah god they're like ancient history lessons from like arthur rugrats like whatever that rugrats episode might be one of the most important like modern jewish jewish texts when they have the little like the little sort of bedouin hats right yeah right we were just talking to a friend of the podcast john bass the other night uh-huh and we were comparing stories i forget what i said but the moment in your childhood that you felt proud to be a jew for the first time rather than like kind of embarrassed and he was like rugrats passover it makes that was the turning point the 90s are very heavy on like let's actually have sort of jewish characters yes say they're jewish right right like and then be like friends has that too and piss their pants and fall down a flight of stairs as i've always said stew pickles is a hot girl okay rugrats is is very it's it's it was a big win for the people yeah rugrats is good i like rugrats i'm sure i'm gonna ruin that again soon like ryan gosling will make a rugrats movie or something they rebooted it with hit maker they did yeah it's like completely over my head wait really yeah like uh they did a cgi rugrats that our friend tim simons was in who was he he was angelica no was he drew pickles maybe i'm looking up possibly anyway i'll just say that now later in life i feel very much left out from these stories and these reference points yeah but i can't really bring myself around to reading the thing cracking open the good book it's really hard b-i-b-l-e yeah it's long too yeah the basic construction before leaving earth as we learned on uh liquid swords yes um no one no one no one knows no last track on liquid storage bible oh yeah jimmy you've read the bible or at least yeah yeah i mean i i am you know i'm i'm uh i'm a raised religious i was raised religious i'm an african-american from the south i was raised religious um my parents are from the south as well yeah i grew up going to church every sunday and then uh took an academic interest in in christianity in college so i have more than my fair share i mean and also just like by virtue of being somebody who studies u.s history and like early american history you kind of have to be somewhat fluent intertwined in like christian theology and like the bible just because like that's a major reference point like you can't you kind of can't properly understand 17th century america for example if you're not like at least somewhat fluent sure in um protestantism calvin like you you need to know something so yeah that's that's that's my like religious background slash like knowledge of the bible although the interesting thing about this movie is it's very catholic like yeah it's not unsurprisingly it's despite i mean paul schrader wrote it and it's a calvinist right that's calvinist right but there's there isn't and it's written by a greek yeah i think a greek orthodox yes right the novel i know it's written by a greek person yes the original book like the straight the schrader of it is far more i think like vibe and mood sort of like you know when you have when you have jesus writhing on the ground with a voiceover about how is how his life is terrible and he's tormented by his own mind it's like oh yeah little schrader paul schrader wrote this yeah yeah yeah man in a room but the aesthetics of it are extremely catholic what do you make of and then we can talk about this movie this is what i ask anyone who's read the dang bible because it's crazy you read that thing griff no i haven't i'm like ben where i i feel left out on this part of culture that most people just kind of have in their back pocket we were i i would say like in in honesty a fairly agnostic family sure but felt the need to go through the jewish traditions out of that's what my family did too exactly so i went to synagogue a fair amount you know there were years where it was only on the big holidays there were years where my parents were trying to be the type of family that went every sunday because there's a social element there's a kind of a yeah like community element right but but the old testament i have in my head we call it the ot i'm sorry the ot yeah because we have to call the original trilogy the ot that's oh yeah that's right yeah that's the most important which is my old test of course yeah well ironically my old testament's the prequel trilogy the pt um but yes no uh so much of of the story of jesus i just i only know in sort of like truly like comedy reference points right like enough to make my way through an improv scene jim how does anyone deal with the fact because i didn't realize this so i studied the bible sort of like in college like that there's the gospels right and matthew mark luke and john matthew mark and luke are all like yeah this is what happened yeah we all basically agree and john's like no i don't know i don't know i don't know now it's all different baby yeah my my version's different and everyone's like and that's you know that's that's the story and you're like wait what do you mean that's the story they disagree it's it's and they're like i don't know like that's just how it got written down growing up there was no sense that there were tensions in the gospel accounts right no sense that like you know the pauline the pauline epistles are in a lot of ways like a fundamentally different thing than the gospels like there's all treated as just a single unified whole like this is the bible and there's not really like temporal or like theological distinctions made but of course as you point out yeah like john's just different like mark uh matthew mark and luke there's there's a there's a i'm not sure if it's still hypothetical or if they know it existed but they can't find it but there's basically sort of like a gospel that does not exist but there's enough similarities between the mark matthew mark and luke accounts that even like language that there's assumed to be i think it's called q like a a a missing gospel that is maybe the source text yes for these other source yeah the q source q source that was written by someone anonymously no it was written by someone we just don't it's like it's yeah it was it was it was written it was written to torment picard oh of course that's true right he would snap his fingers if someone would get a cigar and it'd be very funny wear a funny hat but um and i believe it's like mark is chronologically believed to be the first gospel written right uh then matthew and luke yes yeah but then john but then john's just completely different and even like theologically it's i mean john feels influenced by sort of like the gnostic traditions that pop up uh in the in the century or so after the death of christ it's like a very it's a very different thing uh but i i i that's not something i knew until basically like i took a class right on sort of like the historical bible right like let's unpack this thing as like a piece of historical literature i just i remember this is in that uh that great graphic novel blankets remember that book one of my favorite books of all time right where it's about how craig thompson has this moment where he starts like getting more into the bible like and he grew up religion yes and starts asking those kinds of questions and the the priest is like yeah that's it's very interesting and like let me tell you more about it and yes like let me tell you more about it and then that's like shatters everything for him he's like wait a second so you guys know this like that like different people wrote the bible and like that it's you know kind of a and then he's just like he couldn't get past it like yeah yeah but um i find the bible so interesting i find jc pretty interesting chazay uh and i find this movie wonderful but like you know but like it's just like it's just i get i immediately get so as i guess my brain is like just so caught up in the history of the bible and i'm like oh my god i'm like why did he catch on like when no one else you know like caught on in the same way right why was this it i had a professor i had a professor in college who this was like one of her questions to us that was like it's kind of an unanswerable question his life is brief and obviously his life as a rebel is even briefer right yeah uh but it's it's that's like the question like why why this guy you know there are a lot of and as you mentioned the film shows this there are a lot a lot of uh you know messianic cults um all sorts of things and this is the guy who catches on such that like within a couple hundred years the religion that develops out of his life and teachings becomes like the official state religion of the of the state that killed him right like pretty quickly right quickly yeah and like i was reading about the first so this in this movie like when jesus gets old right and then there's they're burning down thing you know there's this moment kind of late in the movie when jesus gets old right and then there's this burning down thing where people start running and they're like they're fucking the romans are fucking everything up uh that's like the first judean rebellion which is sort of like this big moment where the judeans like rise against rome and get crushed and it's sort of the beginning of the end for like judea like before then judea was this place you know where the romans were in charge but they were kind of like do your thing and then after that it starts to be over i was in rome and i saw the um the arch that depicted them attacking jerusalem and taking all the treasures back and they destroy this to rome and all this shit yeah but like so i'm reading about that and then i'm sort of scrolling back and i'm being like so where's jesus and all this and it's like that's 35 years old but like there's nothing in the historical record basically beyond like yeah we also killed that guy yeah i mean they kill him and then they're like oh and it really caused us a lot of problems there's my understanding is that like the historical record there there are the existence of jesus is attested to by basically multiple there are multiple sources they're like there is this guy his name was jesus he was from nazareth he had a following he was kind of weird he was crucified but but you know yeah you know he was kind of weird yeah yeah i mean there was like a record like the things around someone wrote in a big tab of like weird strange guy he taught me it was okay to be weird in a lot of ways he did go on pete holmes's podcast he did i'm sorry um jesus made it weird he sold brain powder um right there's a little bit of record or whatever there's possible and there's enough to basically say this guy existed right that's like actually not really debated anymore right right um just as a historical man right yes but it's like yeah he wasn't of any particular significance to roman authorities right it's not like missives are being sent of like oh my god we should not have crucified this guy everyone's mad it's starting a religion that's gonna fuck us up it's what's so fascinating about the pontius pilate i was just about to say yes which is just treated as like oh my god what's this next meeting right can i say i when the first time i saw that movie i was so struck by that performance bowie's incredible it's it's like five minutes yeah and bowie's just it's exasperated yeah tired bureaucrat yes somewhat superior in a way that really works and he's not in front of a full council it's like he's taking one meeting in a side room with this guy yeah and he wants to help him he wants to be like dude i don't relax there's no reason for me to have to kill you here right you know you can go home i want a three-day weekend you want a three-day weekend and i'll say what was strike coming somebody grew up going to church christ stories i was taught at pontius pilate is like a great villain right and sort of to portray him in this very humanistic recognizable way um as simply a person who he is a bureaucrat nothing more nothing less um was really relevatory to me and then bowie bowie just has like this look of both sort of i this is not a part of my job that i particularly like kind of compassion for the guy but also sort of like oh that's what you want and that's what you want i am gonna speak out of both sides of my mouth here because like my initial thing is it's stupid that people got this fucking offended by this movie on the other hand versus what you guys were saying where you watched it and for the first time up until the sort of dream ballet sequence of him imagining what his life could be or being shown some quote-unquote version of what he lives that life yes yes i think that what the movie suggests is that like no he actually did live an entire life that entire thing happens and then and then at the end yes this is like you know that's satan right yeah that little girl that's the devil bro straight up um i i was clocking things throughout the movie starting from the beginning that i'm like if i held a certain set of beliefs yeah and i was so strident in them i would be offended by this i get the small things that this is doing all the small things all the small things that don't feel designed to be incendiary but but like that where there are people who want pontus pilot to be a mustache twirling villain the only way it makes sense to them is that this was a targeted campaign against the most special man who self-evidently was special from the very beginning and who never had any doubt about anything from the degree to which this movie so early on defoe's performance is just caked in him being uncertain yeah which to me is interesting is the most i've ever been able to connect to jesus as a character depicted in a fictional film um but if your belief is i need this guy to have been perfect sure placed on earth immovable you know it's the kind of performance that is usually given that is like incredibly stoic and serene and sort of like straight arrow laser focused problem has to not i am jesus totally it's a lot of posing and a lot of you know i'm trying to make my chin look square than it is a great g he had a great chin that guy had an unbelievable jaw um but this is you cast a foe and back to sort of our early discussion at the beginning of the episode this is a guy where there's going to be a nate sort of tension within the performance even if you get the most calm kind of beautiful era of defoe you possibly can get and you put him in the lowest register possible there is a little mania inside that guy yeah you and there's an itchiness inside of him she is good yeah i'm gonna open the dossier do it 1955 two years before his death the greek author nikos kazan uh all right let me get this right kazan sakas i did my best published the last temptation of christ in his homeland uh the novel uh presented a deeply human christ contemplating a normal life spent with mary magdalene and was instantly controversial greek orthodox church tried to excommunicate him i think he might have died before the even got got that done but they were mad at him yeah um and uh you know this is the guy who wrote like zorba the greek uh and like other famous works of greek literature like he's not like a nobody but he thinks it was his best novel an american translation was published in 1960 in 1961 scorsese who is an nyu student i think maybe at that point he hears about it given it by a classmate uh just mentions it to him he says he actually didn't read it until david uh caridin gave it to him on the set of boxcar bertha in 72 yes and then he says he didn't even read it really until like the end of the 70s so he had the books uh he had the commentary that it took him decades to learn how to be a good reader that he was just like i grew up in a household without books my parents both dropped out of grammar school i learned everything visually it wasn't until later in my life where i started knowing how to sit down and actually like focus on a book there's another book that he likes called king jesus by robert graves i do not know the book but uh which was another one he sort of thought about in terms of like if i ever make like a biblical epic um but he couldn't stop thinking about this because the battle between the spirit of the flesh is something he really understood let's also call out like the human you know accessible neurotic christ you know when barbara hershey gives him the book in 72 john caridin gave it to him but yes sure he worked barbara hershey's also they're married yes and hershey says you better let me audition to play mary magdalene well he did well well we'll get there yes okay but it's planted in his head by her yes um so he likes the book uh this is a jesus you could sit down with and have a dinner or a drink so you know which is really i want my jesus i would be a beer of my jesus yeah exactly i got a pick between two jesus's in november and the jesus i want my jesus i can have a beer with ball you know i don't want the jesus who orders the gray poupon who's so stuffy exactly my jesus doesn't wear earth tones no no a little 2000 election humor for you kids out there and my jesus always shows off his pin with pride uh the first uh christ movie he remembers seeing is the robe uh-huh that's the first panavision movie uh it's early like 50s biblical epic um but that was the first widescreen film that's cool yeah yes the first film released in cinemascope cinemascope there we go um so he's long you know he's struck by this from a young age i don't know if you know this but he grew up catholic yeah that's come up in some of the earlier episodes but paul schrader as we already pointed out was a calvinist and he was sort of intrigued by like what could our sensibilities together produce right like paul can strip stuff away um it's a long book if you wrote it all down to probably more like a six hour movie you know what i mean like so he's like i needed paul to kind of like sort of sand it down because jay cox ultimately ends up doing a lot of work on this he doesn't get credit yeah schrader says in the commentary his big thing was to sit down with the book and identify the themes identify the big scenes identify the recurring patterns um and then i i think a lot of the more detailed work came from cox and scorsese later um paul's first version apparently he has jesus taking his heart out he's a literal version of the last supper in terms of swallowing the flesh and blood of jesus i took that out um he's taking his heart out and he says that his most important contribution was the outline he sort of like listed everything in the book like three or four hundred scenes and then just like kind of used that approach he sort of like was like what's the most relevant you know whatever screenwriting stuff uh mary mother of jesus is a bigger character in the book that's not really in the movie at all i feel like they don't really address her yeah it's uh verna bloom yes who's married to jay cox and who's in um after hours yes has been an important figure throughout scorsese's life this is her last performance maybe i can i think so there's something kind of interesting to me yeah essentially yes her and barbara hershey do have similar faces and they are styled somewhat similar yeah sure i think there's a really strong resemblance between the two of them that's interesting okay so he's got a script uh they give it to ervin winkler uh united artists they turn it down king of comedy is released and paramount signs on board which we talk about this i think after hours episode uh and his pitch to them and so it's katzenberg and eisner before they go to disney they're in charge of paramount and he says like i want to get to know jesus better uh like you know first i was gonna be a priest it didn't work out katzenberg and eisner essentially give him the f murray abraham like i don't see a lot of money here and you know they're not like this is blasphemous but they're just like you want to get to know jesus it's not really like lighting the world on fire yeah i mean like how much money do you want uh and that's where scorsese starts to be like i can make an intimate character study like don't worry like i do not need like a biblical epic amount of money but even at that point it was going to cost almost twice as much i think 13 and then it goes up to like 16 yes uh jay cox comes aboard they thought the script was too arty so they want him to make it a little more regular um the budget starts to go up the religious groups start to catch wind of what this project is they start to get angry the protests were so immediate that they scared off paramount from making the movie the first time um aiden quinn of course is the original choice for jesus he's got a jesus he look but it's i think way too obvious sure yes but i mean he's a good actor he looks like a painting of jesus yeah but i don't think he would have had the inner conflict down sure yes i mean i don't want to be rude to aiden quinn because i'm like i mean i've never seen a aiden quinn performance where i was like holy shit like but he's a good actor i don't know what's aiden quinn in legends of the fall yeah magic eric roberts which would have been insane he turned it down i would like to watch the movie made with eric roberts yeah that sounds kind of fun actually uh he turned it down because he thought it was too risky they did consider deniro and trader said that deniro's response was i don't think i can wear a robe and he's like i think bob might be right i think the audience might not buy it um so it all starts to fall apart yeah the right stuff which is a winkler production is a huge bomb that's a great movie yeah i love that movie but it's a big long movie it's an expensive movie and it didn't work and uh they so they canceled last temptation days before shooting is supposed to begin according to scorsese sting was also supposed to be poncho's pilot in that version he always had the british rock star thing in mind yeah i think it's yeah yeah i think it's a good thing that they're not going to be doing it again i think it's a good thing yeah i think it's a good thing that they're not going to be doing it again there's a lot of there's a logic to that right um so then okay the french minister of culture gets involved he's trying to now now he's like trying to find money anywhere he can right uh this is a tough point in his life he says at one point he told katzenberg i'll do flash dance too if you let me make last temptation of christ yeah that you know what i'd watch it i would watch the hell out of marty scorsese's flash dance too if they got bills back color of money is sort of him being like okay like it's like a fancier version of like what's like a sequel i can do right um de palma uh all right this is a quote by scorsese de palma and i were talking about one night he just shown uh scarface a haughty hollywood audience didn't like and he said what do we do are we gonna become teachers or something like are we done uh and we were at hugo's restaurant and i realized honestly i didn't know what else i could do i wish i'd learned to write music or paint or express myself in literature i just don't have anything else i could do uh i find that so relatable i don't know i also have a casual night's term like why am i why do i do this yeah yeah yeah big time i wish i had other skills yeah um they make one effort to shoot it in like russia with like a five million dollar budget egypt at one point um talk about the cojones though where it's just like everyone is telling him not to make this movie his life would be so much easier if he gave up on this he is so fucking driven to see this thing through yeah and so he makes after hours which is a great movie but it's obviously him being like see i can make movies quick i can be responsible right and then he makes uh color of money to be like i can work with stars i can work with studios i can make a hit yes and then he's got good fellas percolating and that looks like it's going to be his next book that's the nick palegi book wise guy you know that he's working on that uh and then he starts talking to mike ovitz paul newman's super agent yes the king of caa obviously a very important person and ovitz poaches marty yes from harry upland who is like his old the classic agent uh and suddenly universal is interested you know ovitz works his magic ovitz has some kind of deal with universal or at least some sort of ongoing conversation to bring them a couple of movies um i think he's able to sort of bundle a couple things together exactly and so universal according to marty is basically just like do what you want like the budget has to be fairly low but like no notes and then he shows them the movie and they like the movie yeah they're like we're moved it's great yeah he has a surprisingly this is the underrated part of this there's actually surprisingly chill part the making of like once universal is aboard tom pollock had read that who's the head he'd read the book he's like interested in religion he's an admirer of marty they foolishly i think this is the everyone's being foolish but they're like i think we're gonna move people with this yeah i think this is gonna work and obviously it's a great movie you know like they start to ignore the sort of pressure of like religious groups are going to be mad at us right you know they start to pick no no no this is good can i just just to interject real quick just thinking about the outside world reacting to this just thinking about the outside world reacting to this it's like an it's an odd period in american history in american culture because like the age of the biblical like biblical epics aren't made anymore by the 80s right like that's that's long a decade not decades yeah not cool not cool incredibly uncool it's not something that happens anymore and so you could imagine you can imagine exactly this movie being made in like the 60s but like something like this being made in the 60s i don't think would have been as controversial no precisely because the biblical epic already existed in like the public mind it was close enough to that being a stream line of yeah and so people would just be like oh this is just like a weird biblical epic totally not like anything to get too upset about it's just it's it's about you know i can ignore it i'll just go see ben hurrigan you know this being the first major depiction of jesus in movies in decades yes yes um puts a lot of pressure on it and then simultaneously in the 80s this is like you have the rise of the moral majority in the religious right so it's sort of like a you have a newly organized with like aggressive right aggressive and organized like religious conservatism you also have televangelists you have these people have platforms these people are broadcasting on a daily basis into a larger audience unfortunately for marty it's sort of like a perfect storm of the public isn't primed for this yes and the people who are super attentive are insane yes yes um can i throw out unfortunately yep uh tom pollack who you mentioned was head of universal at the time tom pollack uh was producer on draft day but most notably he started out his career as entertainment lawyer and the thing that he made his career on is he is the one who got george lucas the star wars deal okay he is the one who got the if you're not going to pay him his quote he owns sequels and merchandising forever the most famous right so he's responsible for the contract clauses or the greatest entertainment deal of all time um and was oh it's a very cool guy you know i'm just saying green with this movie right to my point uh the other thing square says he said and why barbara hershey kept on coming up in his brain while he was making this movie or developing it beyond the fact that she was one of the people who gave him the book was that he had to approach once they finally greenlit at such a small number making this movie corman style he said like i never would have been able to make this movie if i didn't have my corman background right and experience a boxcar bertha specifically that he drew out every single storyboard every shot of this movie and he timed out how long they could take to get that shot like this shot is going to and i'm allotting us three hours to get this shot and if we're going over three hours we have to pivot in some way right we have to figure it out like he had the whole thing diagrammed out so cleanly because he had no room to fail on this and i'm sure it was stressful jay cox just to close that loop fought for wj arbitration didn't get it says he's very proud of his work and he did a lot of work on the movie that's cool um so yeah de niro was never really interested as we said um he was also very interested in christopher walken who makes a ton of yeah very similar to foe right very similar to foe and same with eric roberts i feel like those guys were you know aiden quinn it's like too normal walking in eric roberts like too crazy yeah it's like okay we found it is this good like walken's almost a little bit too on the eccentric side yes yeah eric roberts potentially too evil right yeah aiden quinn had been in this movie called reckless i mean aiden quinn's obviously very young at the time which i've never seen it's a james foley movie that i think is like classic horny 80s thriller okay uh he dug him in that he like liked his intensity but obviously the studio is like what the fuck like i've never heard of this guy uh willem defoe obviously he's in platoon he's also the villain in to live and die in la which he's incredible in um and so those are the things scorsese knows him best from willem is obviously like it had never crossed my mind to play jesus but uh marty's passion was really infectious uh and i believe it when he says this a very difficult role jesus he said an interesting thing in the commentary which was uh are they all together in this commentary is it one of those kind of separate tracks one of those because it's like an early like 96 together laser disc commentary that's been repurposed uh this weird thing criterion used to do where they would record like five different conversations and edit them together um but he said what the first time the project was coming around the aiden quinn version and his rep said said like scorsese wants to do a jesus movie he's like no interest in that don't submit me the second time he comes around they're asking for him because his career is obviously boosted up so much and he went i don't think that makes sense but i why not i'll take a meeting with scorsese right and he takes the meeting with scorsese and scorsese tries to explain to him what his version is and he's like it sounds insane to say but like five minutes in i was like i think i'm the only person who can play jesus that the way he explained it within minutes he went from being like this is probably not something i should do or would even know how to do to feeling like he was the only person who understood what he was trying to get at um so then he's committed yeah yes bowie one filmed a scene in one day yeah they said one day rehearsal one day of filming harvey kytel and barbara hershey were part of previous projects like he brings them back and she's kind of having a career resurgence at this moment he does make barbara test because he's like i don't want to feel obligated because like you and david gave me the book yeah but she tested for the role that was fine i mean kytel is obviously bananas casting is sort of the most mocked part of the movie i feel like at the time he doesn't get a razzy i think he's got a rise which is i mean again yeah i think it's mostly for the wig like it's like the razzy was for the wig right you know what i mean him sounding like a new yorker well that's how judas is in the bible right yeah yes red hair this is in brooklyn yeah that's why that's why i was assuming so i thought that was it like an authentic yeah capturing of of the bible 100 he's always eating pastrami but kytel's sort of kytel's kytel's energy is like aggression yeah like it is sort of the jealousy the weird kind of like loathing or whatever yeah um scorsese said that it was like i wanted him to embody like violence yes and anger yes and it's like it's it's i mean even the red hair in that regard like it works it's like it's a great i think it's a great performance i think so too i'm not sure the movie quite works without i think it's a great performance i think it's a great performance i think it's a great without judas being there and and you know the point towards the end where jesus like you need to betray me yeah you have to do this like doesn't work unless judas is this almost like diametric opposite of jesus who comes to be devoted to him right it's totally completely obviously right i knew nothing of judas beyond like he's the guy who betrayed christ right that made made it make so much more sense to me yeah right but it's like we all have to fill a role here even that must be your role touchy for some people right right to round out judas this much more beyond just being a betrayer the the you know marty says that the thing that attracts him to the story it's a struggle between the the spiritual and the physical and all these things um and the story is about taking seriously the fact that jesus christ was a man but like one one one consequence of that is they have to take seriously that everyone in this story is just a human being totally and so like human beings are not one note villains no for the most part and what makes people interesting is that they are tested right and that the best people among us are able to resist and persevere and the most tragic people among us like succumb to these things right that that the testing is a big part of it if you remove the testing from it then people become uncomplicated right um i also this is my hottest take on this movie uh-oh here he goes i think this movie is fascinatingly structurally so similar to new york okay but it feels like a corrective where he figures out obviously in an entirely different story how to pull off that type of movie which is you have like an hour and 45 minutes to two hours where there's a lot of kind of repeat performances going on this movie is almost a musical in the series of the miracles and the set pieces that he's doing and the central relationship between judas and jesus where judas is trying to suppress jesus or at least he's trying to suppress jesus least be like calm the fuck down man stop it but you're making the person who has the light within them be the prominent character rather than letting the person who's trying to stop them overrule the entire movie and then much like new york new york it has its last 45 minutes that are like well it's all been building to this like now we go into the inner life and the inner mind and explore all the possibilities of what could have been and what have been and what are to then get to the final like tragic hammer blow ending uh but the central relationship feels feels very similar to me and kytel's presence in this feels like a better version of what jimmy doyle is trying to be without trying to make him charming and i think it's the modern energy i mean this is the other thing he said was you had so many biblical epics that sort of like take the posture and the language of shakespeare and giant humongous sets and very pronounced you know king's english and all of that and it makes it feel very very distant and theatrical yes and that his whole thing was like you know this has to be street level these have to sound like guys talking on a street corner just you know this debate is still happens every single time someone does this and nolan had this happen this year with the odyssey where people like well i don't understand they say fuck and dad yeah and nolan's like i like anything apart from ed scorsese says here like unless they're speaking aramaic we're wrong like right we already blew it so yes i wanted new york like you know you've got harry dean stanton doing kind of his like his little sort of appalachian lilts right like thing you know he said the big thing was to give let the romans be british yes that do the ben hur thing of the romans are british but otherwise everyone brings their own american correct yeah it's it's very funny to me that's it that seems to be what what we've decided in movies is that your evil imperial power they're british of course doesn't matter doesn't matter what what what the world is you're in space yeah in space yeah in ancient ancient judea yeah does not matter doesn't matter doesn't matter doesn't matter doesn't matter doesn't matter doesn't matter doesn't matter doesn't matter who i think is phenomenal in this he is so he's so good in this place peter uh as essentially like a fucking stevedore from like red hook you know like has like a sort of fisherman kind of like you know accent i was and i was gonna say has the energy of someone leaning on you to pay back your debts and according to scorsese was smoking a cigar all the time and then when they would start filming he's like oh right and he would have to take the cigar out of his mouth defoe said that he was a big smoker at the time of filming but beyond the fact that scorsese is so asthmatic and doesn't want people smoking around him he was like jesus shouldn't smoke he was like willem if people get fucking pictures jesus just ripping cigs i mean isn't that a thing from the gibson movie though where like everyone still does the memes of like caviezel in jesus makeup covered in blood just kind of sitting on set like drinking a mountain or whatever wasn't there the one with joaquin going around too smoking a cig oh my god i forgot that movie happened people forget that joaquin played jesus in of course a movie called mary magdalene uh-huh i've never seen it i know nothing about this the movie where he falls in love with ernie mara yeah uh i was gonna say just as a quick a quick thought and i get this i kind of already mentioned this earlier but it's relevant to this um the the the movie both does makes the or scorsese makes the choice of having everyone kind of sound like modern americans to sort of at least try to capture the sense that these are ordinary people they're like talking in like you know vernacular language like they're not it's it is it is not shakespeare we're not trying to elevate things but then also it does this in tandem with the world presented it's very strange and alien a hundred percent with like customs that we are impenetrable to us it feels like mos Eisley right yes um yeah it feels exactly like mos Eisley and to me the alien this with which the world is presented feels very like like a movie of like trying to take seriously the fact that the past is truly different than what we experience um and kind of put you there as much as possible they shoot in morocco and marty says like when they got there he's like i wish i had 10 000 extras like because this is so beautiful and like i could you know make you know he thinks about his epics and then he's like but it's all in the landscapes you go from village to village there's just a few people like that's what it was like so there's the scene where the centurions attack at the town center at like the marketplace yeah and it's five centurions you only had five centurions and he's like this is all we got he's like great this is what we're gonna do whip pan to five centurions attacking from this side then we're gonna move them to a different place whip pan different direction five centurions and he reuses five centurions to make them 25 centurions you just never need to see them all in the same frame at the same time michael ballhouse who's cinematographer who'd already done after hours with them obviously is like and who's his best dp um is like it at it being a quote-unquote poor movie like fits the subject i think it like worked for the movie better um he loved peewee herman marty score says marty score says he loved peewee herman would tape he would have tapes sent to him of the show every week this is like albert einstein watching beanie and cecil this is the greatest thing i've ever heard he would have that he was so into peewee herman that they would send him like pal tapes of like that week's show yes so funny yes uh um and yes uh to bring up something brought up by miriam bell on our mean streets episode yes it shares a lot of locations with ishtar which was made around the same time it does look very similar right yes uh was shot incredibly quickly uh 58 days you know for a big uh movie like this big you know like for an epic movie like this uh he finds the experience very physical very challenging or whatever but yeah i mean he says it was the worst shoot okay so it's and there's weather shit it was bad it was it was it wasn't dramatic but and they had no rushes they like couldn't check dailies yes um and but he says he kind of did it blind essentially but he had it so planned out it was his most planned movie so that he went in with such a strong game plan which was the only way to actually get it done i mean like all the stuff in the crucifixion he could only be up there for like three minutes before any of those actors start to go delirious so that's like two days on the cross you the second the actors in place they go wait a second we got to move this light this thing isn't working here the microphone isn't turning on but if you're doing that after you've put willem dafoe up on a cross you're losing time rapidly right so let's talk about the movie yeah it's about jesus uh as my friend carolyn put it who's read the book she's like the book starts with imagine a guy who sucks and is lame and he's miserable and everyone hates him and then he goes to a monastery and like starts to freak it i feel like the movie is a little bit more like starting pretty much like he's he's kind of knows what to say but he it starts him at a point where everyone's pissed off at him because of him making the cross because he's right right you know he's uh i mean look there's no ethical consumption under capitalism this is true and this is the most important episode to say that and rome was capitalist you know right i i don't i don't know if i'd say that yeah yeah um no i mean you you meet jesus he's not i mean he's not quite at the point where he's like ready to begin the ministry but he's like clearly like a tormented man yeah who you know by his own account uh doesn't understand why he's being tormented by god and just wants it to stop he's like me am i crazy it's just nuts and that's right that's where i think you know defoe is right that maybe he's the only guy to play this play this particular iteration of jesus because it's like jesus the character is like am i going insane right yes and defoe i'm either the son of god or going insane what do you guys say yeah and defoe looking like he's on the verge of insanity at all times makes that like sells that he doesn't have to say anything for you to kind of get oh this guy thinks he's losing his mind yeah yeah and it gets back to like what we were saying about defoe earlier is even in his old coot era like some of those old coots are menacing and some of them are like the one voice of reason this character has in the world even though they seem crazy right like defoe at his most still has that wrestling inside of him right right which is great yeah i mean uh it completely works for the character but more like willem de savior i just remember the first time we are willing to thank you i wanted to give it a shot what do you think i think it was a wild success i'm a little on the fence yeah i'm trying to think of alternatives to the savior the savior the lamb the lamb of god that doesn't want you to work too much the lamb of god the lamb the lamb of god is fun i said hip hop he like he does like really really boring my name is jesus christ and i'm here to say it's fun to be you know blasphemous and inelegant i don't know um it's fun to be blasphemous yeah whatever yeah i don't know he calls himself the king of blasphemy he does i mean look he's obviously he's a troublemaker in the in the the the jewish community of judea which is a client state of rome that's sort of run by the romans but like it's a backwater right like that's the that's the history right right right um it's not of any particular importance right i mean that's the thing with like people like pontius pilate where you're like well what does the record say and it's like i don't know that's some fucking guy who got that shit job yeah of having to go there you know what rocked rome that's where you want to be you don't want to be all the way over there where there's like scorpions and whatever and angry jews talking snakes like and uh like i guess like jesus is part of like a larger jewish rebellion but he's just one element right and he's not a very organized element it's not even clear he's like part of the rebellion it's just like he's just like he knows people involved right it's like judas judas uh who you know who judas calls himself a zealot which is like kind of this is where i think there's like actual biblical scholarship here because if i have this right judas iscariot which is sort of the traditional name iscariot is like basically a transliteration of like zealot right okay and he's like he is someone who's like sent to deal with jesus because they're like this is a collaborator essentially right because they have the zealots were an actual group of like anti-roman right jewish or judean rebels right um and right so like yeah he sent the film implies that they know each other like they've known each other for a while um and that part of the issue is that the zealots are telling judas you got to kill this jesus guy for making the crosses and judas this is not on screen but you can kind of kind of guess it's like i don't want to you know he's fine he's okay i can persuade him to stop doing this and then he starts being like are you messiah son of god right like he starts to build sort of believe in him he's an early follower right yeah um and we see him saving mary magdalene and like that's the beginning of him acquiring more followers i'm trying i'm trying he's even getting tempted in that first mary well i guess there's a second mary magdalene scene because there's a scene where she tries to stone him or at least throws rocks so when so there when he is carrying the cross to crucify the messiah that the other messiah that we need yeah she spits in his face yes um we meet meet her again so he goes to meet her after he's in a cave with the priest he's talking to the one priest right and he's like you know the priest like i've never met god i'd like to meet god and like because the the priest who greets him at this place he's like you know your brother greeted me like well that guy's that guy's been dead yeah here he is dead uh you were dead for a day you were met by god uh and so this this sort of like he's like jesus asking what do i do next and then he he's like i'll go see mary magdalene yeah which the the dead guy is robert's blossom uh yeah that's right in all the jonathan demme movies but also of course is the old man and home alone yes oh yeah uh the other crazy one is uh uh zebedee yes yes is irvin kirshner that's right director of empire strikes back my favorite moment of the movie when jesus is like zebedee that widow you've been with and someone in the back room yells judith um you know there's a hole up there the um uh the second mary magdalene scene well at first i just want to say you know the french cartoon the magic roundabout or is that the british british well it's but it's it was originally french oh really yeah yeah the book is french no i think it was all right now oh boy now we gotta we gotta go deep on this uh yes it used footage of a french stop-motion animated show called le ménage enchante wow okay with complete and complete completely different scripts and characters so it is the british one of course the main character power rangers kind of deal exactly but the main character is called zebedee i do know that yeah with the guy with the mustache yes spring for a lower half of his body i think was voiced by ian mckellen in the cgi movie probably yeah who ends every episode by going time for bed and so that's where i learned the word zebedee who of course is the uh father of james and john right like that is who jez zebedee is in in the bible um but it is funny these play by irvin marty at school too because he wasn't he was george lucas's yes like like teacher at usc right but i think he had some connection with him maybe just through george i mean the whole casting of this movie is like a collection of like debut as an actor i can tell you that yeah i i just know all those guys cited him as being really good with actors and teaching them how to direct actors better than others um the the whole casting of this movie feels like a martin scorsese this is your life yeah like he's pulling people from such different directions the great andre gregory as john the baptist one of my favorite scenes um but uh like is has my dinner with andre yeah that's already come out yeah and this is post mosquito coast too right yeah um yeah so what does jesus get up to all right i'm trying to remember the linear plot there's there's he meets magdalene yes um and we see the magdalene to prostitute yes he's there waiting you just have men who sit like crisscross applesauce on the floor watching waiting for their turn right yeah and he gets baptized right yeah it's true there's a point between that it kind of gets a little hazy for me but then he then he meets john the baptist he gets baptized and then he goes into the desert where he is tempted he's tempted the first time in the book uh tempted by a serpent with uh human breasts uh-huh in the movie it's more just kind of like some fire and a regular serpent snake with a voice be very funny if they try to give the serpent human breasts boobies i would be very into that i'd learn a lot about myself i do think barbara hurst barbara hurst she's fantastic in this movie uh you know it's not a gigantic role it's probably the most developed female role in the movie though and she's great apparently the female roles were worse in the book my friend's biggest review of the movie when i watched it with her a while ago because she'd read the book but she was like amazing movie she was also like way less sexist than the book the book is very sexist um and even the angel at the end of the movie or or the physical form of satan disguised as an angel was a boy in the book and she's like oh my god i'm gonna um no i just want to call out that barbara hurst scene because it is a big early scene of her trying to call bullshit on him yeah before he wins her over and being like you're just like these other guys you came here to watch me fuck and you want to fuck me which i do understand if you are a very literal minded follower of the bible could be a thing that like clashes against your very beliefs you know the notion of even depicting a scene like that putting jesus in that position yeah yeah , but but i do think defoe plays it as like there is the part of him that's like god do i just have to sacrifice everything you know i think defoe does that really well throughout the movie which is he's 90 sure that he wants to keep going the way he's going but also it's so fucking difficult it's so fucking difficult and there's so much sacrifice yeah yeah much like the odyssey which i'm now thinking about because of that comparison with the language he you don't hear like god talking to him right it's not this kind of you know like he's saying like i'm getting little bits and pieces like i'm doing what i you know god i'm only in these different ways right i'm only like a little bit ahead of you guys like i only like sort of know the next thing to do the the desert stuff is so striking um i'm sure it was a pain to shoot but like i just love the plainness of it it's just like empty uh it's rockier you know than like your classic desert you know it's not you're like it's not lords of arabia right it's not act it isn't agrabah they thought about filming an agrabah yeah yeah couldn't get the permits well the tax incentives that are actually really bad in a weird way you think they'd want to get more production you know what happens to me what like i'm out there in the desert and like some fucking lion is like hey you want some money i'm like yeah please get me out i'd be so bad at this uh but then like and then he uh he does take his heart out he does in front of his followers that was schrader's biggest idea yes yes i don't know what do you guys make of that scene takes out like a rubber heart from his chest well let's say in the reality of the movie the heart isn't rubber i know but it kind of looks you know yes you're like oh damn like he has like a little a little prop heart but we've also seen a lot of blood in the movie up until this point there's just constant this was a thing that i think cox said in doing his research he wanted to get in there which is just like they're just greats everywhere and they're just like they're of blood flowing of animals being slaughtered yeah there's just like blood constantly running through the streets and the walls and everything so you've seen like internal organs falling to the ground already at this point in the movie correct me if i'm wrong you know that's not in the bible no jesus doesn't like pop his heart out and go like see yeah i'm magic baby that's a schrader invention he does other magic stuff yeah yeah i think it's kind of rude of schrader no i don't know i don't know if it's in the book maybe it is i don't know i'm watching it i don't think so here's my problem the heart is beating you want the classic like the cartoon like yeah like a temple of doom style yeah yeah it just it would hit harder for me if that was happening uh then he returns and of course does the most important thing in this movie which is uh the gif where he raises a cup you know as a gift oh dude it is that is a classic gift like i've seen it of like jesus being like giving the toast you know you too brother like basically like a just a it's a very funny image to me now i mean it's not intended in the movie is funny obviously he heals a blind man he heals a blind man miracles yeah the canonical miracles right he turns water into wine yep which i i do you better check that water you guys like it's fucking water it's like i don't know maybe it's fine that scene is so funny it's very good it's when he drinks it he's like fuck it's wine jesus he says jesus christ because it's that's who did it well yeah it is so funny that it's the one scene where marty goes into like shinebox rhythms right where it's like two guys on the street fucking with each other where he's like do me a favor check that wine one more time check that water one more time Do you think it's crazy that in the middle of all that, Jesus did raise a guy from the dead? Yeah. The guy came out of a cave being like, oh, it does feel like it does feel the miracles feel the water into wine. Right. Kind of closer to a parlor trick. Right. Healing the blind. That's pretty impressive. I give that like an eight out of ten. But it feels like, you know, his power levels just explode. When he's raising people from the dead. He goes, it's like he's going super Saiyan, super Christ. Do we need to nerf Jesus's power levels? Power scale Jesus. Jesus versus Superman. John Byrne will come in. Right. He'll reset everything. He can leap over a building. Like he's not, you know, Superman. How are you going to be able to beat Jesus with a Kirby? You know what I'm saying? Like that's not a fair matchup. Thomas Aranya plays Lazarus. Just shout him out. He's also in Hunt for Red October. He's a million things. He's one of those guys. They said they didn't have the money to dress that scene in a way to get across how disgusting the tomb was. He's not like totally right. It could be. You could go more kind of zombie with it. So this is their like pragmatic problem solving of like, okay, so what's the way we visualize how disgusting the space is? And they were like, oh, it can smell really bad. Every actor just needs to be like, ew, pee, ew. When they roll the boulder out of the way. It's really funny to watch. Just 40 guys. Go like, yeah, stinky poo poo. Oh, my God. The greatest miracle I've ever seen in my life. After that is the temple where he trashes the money lenders and all that. And like at this point, we're 90 minutes into the movie. Yeah. And I really feel like the first I was just like, I don't. We're just watching the Bible. I'm so surprised that anyone thinks this is controversial. Jesus is great. Sure. There's some nudity. Like that's like the extent to which I've been like surprised by. I mean, I'll say there's one scene. I love this movie. There's one scene that did make me go. I this that dialogue could be a little better. And it's when he is first teach is before he hasn't had disciples yet. It's just him and Judas. And he's speaking to a group of people, some of whom become disciples. And he's about to basically do the beatitudes. And he doesn't quite say like the meek will inherit the year. He doesn't quite say it. But like the rhythm of the way the foe is delivering the lines feels like he's about to just like say the line. And I had a very sort of like, yeah, this is the Jesus biopic. It's like Paul McCartney singing a guitar in the window. Right. Exactly. Like, love me do. Yeah. Right. Why is that guitar gently weeping? There's the counterpoint scene that's so well done, which is the let ye who's without sin cast the first stone scene where they never say it. They never say where they actually just show. Don't tell the idea. Yeah. Jesus is weird because like, I mean, Jesus was weird. Listen, no, you got it. Keep going. He taught you was OK. Jesus was all right to me. I'll say. That's so true. You read like some of the parables. Really good. Ben's like bad joke, Jamel. Yeah, I know. If people knew the faces Ben makes during records, some of the parables are very obvious and resonant and are things essentially along the lines of like, you should be nice to people and love your fellow man and help. And then there's the weird ones where he would be like, if you. Plant a mustard seed grows a plant and people are like, should we write that down? And he's like, I guess we'll write it down. How much do you like mustard? Two thousand years of scholarly debate to be like, what is that fucking one about? He's like, that's all you got. I can, you know, it is like a grain of mustard seed, which a man took and put in his own garden. It grew and became a large tree and the birds of the sky lodged in its branches. And everyone's like, and he's like, and that relish are the only things you should put on your hot dog. And they're like, Jesus hates ketchup. Oh, that's so true. For eight year olds. Yeah, it's for children. Come on. Yeah. When did you guys get into mustard? I was saying, because my daughter rejected mustard the other day, which is fine. She's five years old. They all do. And I'm like, I get it. It's spicy. I get it. So I never, I never. I was like, when did I fall in love with mustard? I've never. When it comes to condiments, on the subject of condiments, I never liked mayo. Sure. And so I'd always be like, give me some mustard. Right. Because you have to have a condiment on the sandwich. You must. And I was like, well, I'm not going to. I mean, I've got to have mustard. So I don't, I've always liked mustard. So you got there fast, right? Yeah, I got there fast. But it felt like a process of elimination. Yeah. Yeah. Because I was thinking about how in Britain, you know, the mustard is super spicy. Because they got that English mustard that kind of clears your sinuses out. And so I think I sort of skipped yellow mustard. Uh-huh. And then later found like your American hot dog mustard. I never liked that kind of mustard. Right. I still don't like that kind of mustard. I think I got into it probably in my early 20s because along with horseradish, I was like, should I keep this in the fridge to clear my sinuses? Right. Right. And then I started putting it on stuff. It's good for that. Yeah, it's good for that. Ben, you a mustard guy? I love mustard. So good. Dijon. Yeah. He's my top. Yeah. Yeah. Great Poupon. President Poupon over here. We should have a fancy. Ben is wearing a tan suit today. Yeah. And I look great. But I also got, came around to it later in my 20s. Yeah. Like I rejected mustard. I was only ketchup. Your 20s are for mustard. Yeah. Your 20s are. That's your mustard era. It's for experimenting. Your mustard maxing. Your mustard maxing. Mustard mogging. Maybe a little relish. I don't know. Maybe a little chutney. Relish is for your 30s. Okay, fine. Around now is when Harry Dean Stanton shows up as Paul. As well as, not yet. As Saul. As Saul as Tarsus. Right. Right. He's going to have his road to Damascus later, right? One of those things where it's like, well, Harry Dean Stanton belongs in the 20th century. Like, where it's sort of surprising to see him in robes. But he also does feel eternal to me. He does. In some way. And soulful. And, you know, his permanent wrinkles and his kind of like weird face, like does kind of make him work in the movie. I don't know. It's not an iPhone face cast, but I did think it's a vinyl record cast. Yeah. They all have vinyl record face. Yeah. All of these. All of these people have dropped a needle on the record, you know? But yeah, do you guys enjoy this, you know, this performance, Harry Dean Stanton? Sure. Yes. No. I like it. I think when we see him again later in the film and he is Paul. Yes. I think that's great. I think it's a really great moment. And sort of. And you kind of need a very recognizable face for that purpose. Right. Sort of like you see him again. Yes. I mean, even when you meet him the first time, you're sort of like, well, he must be someone important. I mean, there's a bit. The purpose of casting someone as recognizable as Harry Dean Stanton. Like, this is clearly a significant person. It's also, it's his straight talk quality. Yeah. Yeah. You know, this is a guy who can't lie on screen, who can, who underplays everything. But yeah, this script does not have a lot of like, and I'm Thomas and I'm always doubting stuff. Like, it does not, I guess, really, you know, it sort of relies on its, on its audience figuring things out or not worrying about it. Like, you're sort of like, you know, Judas, you know, Jesus, you know, Mary, you can figure out that the rest of them are not. We're followers of some renown or whatever, you know, right. And if you know more about the Bible, you'll, you'll probably recognize things. I do appreciate that. It doesn't put like a point on things like you see, you get the moment where Peter denies Jesus three times. Right. But it's not like telegraphed. No, it's not like a zoom in, zoom in. No, I don't know Jesus. Like, that doesn't happen. It's just sort of like someone's like, hey, I think that guy, I think that guy is one of Jesus's followers. He's like, no, I'm not. No, I think, I think I. I swear I've seen you with that dude. I know him. We all know him. There's a little counter in the bottom of the screen. I'm friendly with him. I wouldn't say I'm friends with him. I haven't been to his hut. I don't hang out in his cave. Lazarus gets killed. There's the big riot in the temple. Things are popping up. That's so fucked up. This guy just came back to life. If I'm him, I'm so mad. It's a waste of incredible work. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of the one time that it ever happened and they immediately undo it, which I don't think is in the Bible either. I don't think it's in the Bible. No. Like, that's like, kill him. Yeah. No, I don't. There's like, you know, we're moving on. This is like, come out. Lazarus is like, all right, let's keep the road. Come on. Lazarus. They don't just kill him. They slice him open like he's a fucking pig. Yeah. They got him. It's rough. The movie is like you said, Griff. It's violent. It's not violent in the way of like a Marty movie can be. Like, so insanely violent. There's like a three-year-old kicking some guy in the ground. Perfectly. The ultimate display of violence. Connecting every time. Yes. Leg. Foot touching flesh. Leg going all the way back and making such a journey to direct impact with muscle. These are cheap jokes, of course, but it is, the fact that it's a Scorsese directed biblical epic and then you know the rest of his movie is, I do like when I want, when I've watched this, I do think of like, it'd be funny if there were a scene. A scene of like Jesus laughing, like De Niro and Kate fear, right? Just like, right. And that's when they have to arrest him because when he's being too loud, right? And that's when pilots like care too. And then he also does that whole thing with Mary Magdalene's retainer. Uh, yes. Yeah. Then there's the Pontius pilot, you know, which we talked about, but is there more, you know, like we're just like total stillness again, just a spare set. Well, he was such a good actor. You and I both rewatch prestige. - He fucking rocks in that. fucking good and it's the same use of him in prestige it's like we kind of need someone who just communicates instantly weirdness and like you know authority yeah like in this kind of peculiar way but he's very short how to not overdo it and it doesn't overdo it neither and in fucking prestige he's like doing an accent and he's tesla he's in a cyber truck he looks awesome he looks so good everyone's cheering as he makes comedy legal that movie's about how hugh jackman's trying to make comedy legal but that's the war legal yeah save free speech yes they should remake a prestige but about the austin comedy scene that's great that's great right isn't that great yeah um no i just find it so fascinating that bowie was able to completely tone down his rock star energy yeah and just lean into the alien ness and like you watch the man who fell to earth and you're like well of course he's great at this this is the one appropriate time you could cast david bowie in a movie and it's not distracting and yet every time he's putting in like a one or two scene role like this he just fucking knocks it out of the park and he gives it an energy that no one else could but it feels like he was a very smart actor like he really understood his moves is he the best rock star actor i think the best editor is here mick jagger made real movie sting uh chris christopherson chris christopherson james belushi yeah oh yeah i guess more blue star actor yeah yeah yeah bruce willis right steven seagal of course yeah yeah jared leto jared leto come on let's not forget um no i mean if we're having the honest question it's like the beatles presley mick jagger but bowie's a very interesting case of like he actually took these sort of like different roles jaggers i mean he's good in some like performance and he could be good he could be good you needed to craft around these guys right in the right way i'm trying to think i'm trying to think because when i think of musician actors i actually just think of rappers yeah which which like they've taken rappers are basically always good at acting yes because like i feel like there's so much performance yes like that you have there's so much presence you have to have right even when you're like essentially performing in like the tiniest scale right right how many rappers turned actors were bad is the question they're all good it's a good question i just i just went to the 25th anniversary of uh fast and furious sure uh re-release sure ja rule wasn't like the greatest actor of all time you're like he had a little juice yeah there was a reason they wanted him back for the second one in the greatest bag fumble of all time oh is he says no and then they go like fine we'll ask ludicrous and ludicrous is great ludicrous is great i almost want to see like ice tea has like limited rain that's what he's come on he's got the hours yeah he's got the hours he's got the hours but ice cube is a very good act like you know like ice cube has given legitimately good screen is a really good act yeah most f is it was a great act i mean most stuff should have been like a major star to me dmx is the rapper turned actor where i'm like i don't think anyone ever sat dmx down and taught him how to act right like and i don't think he was ever in like a particularly good movie anytime dmx is on screen in the movies he made i'm like i cannot take my eyes off this guy this is unbelievable he's got a couple good scenes in exit wounds which i don't say lightly like i mean like that's the sort of the example where i'm like right you know like it's just kind of like i don't know just point the camera at him this is gonna work like are there answers where we're just not thinking of them or i'm like is the game good you know i don't know exactly other people we should madonna madonna yeah who's got a lot of shit yeah has given good performance yes like she's kind of up and down courtney love a very good actor that's what i was gonna say too yeah yeah we have to shout out yeah cindy lopper i feel like never got her full would she i don't think i've seen some movie called vibes debbie harry debbie harry yeah sure i don't know i mean like look you have to have stage presence like it makes sense yeah sure yeah keep going freaking meatloaf for you yeah meatloaf is a good actor meatloaf's a good hey tom waits tom waits but meatloaf was more of an actor first sure i guess musical theater actor who then became yes uh his name is bob waits is a great answer yeah waits isn't that the line from fight club right yeah waits is a good answer it was giving me a look like ben has lost his fucking mind what he's talking about uh tom waits might be the guy who challenges david bowie and my mind tom waits very cool if you look at the breadth of the work yeah and the directors he's worked with guys were naming mostly did not take you know they they work very well especially in supporting roles and right uh character roles and his scene is great in this oh oh justin timberlake conversation over anyway so back to last temptation of christ uh yeah well then they crucified jesus yes um you know they make him they give him a crown of thorns which i think is really rude just make him carry the cross which i think is really rude a note a note about these scenes this is the part of the movie where i really like this part of the movie and i really like that scorsese seems to linger on the compositions a lot um because they do look really incredible like the of jesus being you know marched down the corridor right with the crowds and yeah there is a sense of when he's coming when he's coming in to jerusalem on the donkey is a is a great sort of like composition as well did we talk about the scene where he tries to convince uh judas to kill him yeah like when he's having the dark night of the solar like it right before and he's also like i'm going to die you should just do it you can just do it i need to die as a sacrifice right yes um but of course he sort of realizes like no i have to be like publicly a symbol like to well judas judas also is like can you imagine how bad my reputation would be in history if i'm the guy who kills jesus i'm not doing that now i have to take one meeting yeah crucifixion a bummer you wait did we pass the last supper you gotta shout out the last supper i gave you the the gif but no yeah that's pretty good that's what he did he had a lot he had it was a satyr but did they shout out that it's the last one no no they were like we're gonna do this i'm so full i couldn't do another one of these that's what someone should say yeah guys meet back here same time next week right and no one's betraying me like christ is on the cross no one's betraying me is such a funny thing where everyone's like oh this is good and judas jesus is like why don't you betray me by the way it's like what what's he talking about this guy god i hope this doesn't get painted onto the wall somewhere um that would suck to get walled christ is on the cross i'm two hours and five minutes into the movie yeah so it really the last temptation is really the last the last temptation is really the last temptation half hour of the film this is the happy ending sequence right and you know a girl approaches him and is like you did it buddy come on down like yeah can i say real quick there are things like i i always expect this up i know it doesn't in the movie famously on the cross there's there's two criminals being crucified with him with unshittier crosses one of them is sort of like ha ha look at that guy he's the king of the jews fuck you right and the other guy is like you know will i be okay and in canonically in the lore yeah jesus says you know you'll be with me in paradise and that so it's like his last blessing is to this other crucified criminal which is not in the movie but it's like it's part of the but they are there and they are there you see the other the other yes this this this uh young girl is sort of like hey listen jesus just like you know god asked abraham to sacrifice isaac he's seeing if you're gonna do it you did it you proved that you were right ready yeah it's much like the binding of isaac of sort of like yeah okay then we believe you that you wanted to do it yeah and so now you are free essentially and uh here's mary and you're gonna live a happy life yeah uh and he does have sex with her which people were mad about we will get into this in a second yeah and then she dies and then he just i just i mean it's blasphemous i don't know what i'm talking about okay do you know what i'm talking about jamal you know the star trek guy i once you start explaining i think it will it will jog my memory like start the starship just like it's like hey there's a weird beam picard looks at the beam the whole episode is him living an entire life on a village a very simple life and then at the end they're like hey what happened like you got knocked out for a second and it's like this long time ago i don't know what happened civilization like downloaded its culture into you yeah and you and he's like i just lived a whole fucking life like 50 years and they're like oh okay weird you know and it's an amazing beautiful episode it's like inception too i like any story of like right of someone snapping out of it and like the other person's like hello and they're like i just was gone for 50 years sure wasn't there recently a story about a young woman who was in a coma oh boy and she similarly had like like a very extreme lucid dream of living in a coma and she's like oh my god i'm gonna get an entire lifetime and then woke up and then was like where are my children that's the worst feeling about i don't i don't like i don't like that deeply upsetting but obviously profound and like and and like that's what happened jesus has an inner light he we watch him in like you know yeah sort of an accelerated pace like live a whole life and he's he's actually living this life i mean the interesting thing in the kind of tell that this little girl is satan is she's like you know mary's dead but like there's only one woman yeah we just with different faces different faces so just like find another one right for a second you're like are scorsese's gender politics that bad but then you realize what that's actually like little andrew tate right there that's yeah a little bit yeah what's going on yeah um uh but then he goes he goes to mary sister of lazarus yes who he meets earlier they after he comes out of the desert after the first temptations he meets her and her sister martha and they bring him back to health and so he would in mary is clearly interested in him so he returns to her and with her that he has the family though it's suggested that like it's like kind of a polyamorous situation going on a little bit yeah well jesus was poly no i'm kidding i don't this is what i'm saying or has everything we've said been offensive um i i think it's important though that it's not like his life is like perfect and idyllic he has to lose mary magdalene no he has a realistic ish although it's odd and fantastical in a way but like right it's that he lives a normal life is that a life of a normal human being with his like fucking kids like coming back from like the market right and then you know that's when he sees um he sees now paul preaching about him about the road to damascus um and jesus confronts him he's like i'm the guy you're talking about yeah he's like i i didn't i didn't i wasn't resurrected i i'm a man right i'm just hanging out here i'm just a guy i fuck isn't there the thing too where he uh he does yell that he says i fuck because i fuck but i guess that's sort of the implication of like this is imagining a world where like jesus's myth exists but the real guy is sort of put in parallel with it right and then occasionally we'll just realize that that's happening around him of like people are spreading his gospel and but also sort of like paul is preaching and like no one's particularly interested yeah that's true that's that's it's not catching on it's not catching on yeah so the message is out there but the absence of the sacrifice means it's sort of like you know well also when mary magdalene dies and he says to her back the way you brought me back right and it's like no it's not like this this is god's will like she has to go you get to stay this isn't a thing you get to horse trade about like he realizes the part of the give of living a normal life is he's not in conversation with god yeah and miracles don't happen he doesn't get to negotiate with reality in that kind of way right yeah and when he is on his deathbed yes and ben we've talked about deathbeds before if you remember on our sense and sensibility episode deathbed the bed that kills we should cover that movie on this show don't you think yeah yeah we can cover that someday who directed that john badham i just assume when you say deathbed that's what we're talking about it was in the sense and sensibility episode at the beginning of the movie it's tom wilkinson's character i believe so someone's on a deathbed and ben very earnestly said we see this old guy he's on his deathbed and then we never see him again what happened no i didn't say i said he was in bed and we're like yo that was no one communicated that it was the death wasn't clear to me right it was just a bed to me it wasn't like made of skulls ben wants clear demarcation of what is a bed versus a deathbed which is a good point you don't want to get into a deathbed by accident just because you're sleepy right that's true right never wake up ben just looked at me so seriously when he said right and it's what i've been saying and also people could visit you while you're in bed and you can have a conversation that's totally fine and normal it doesn't mean that you're on your deathbed it's true no but that guy was on his deathbed all right well well jesus here is on his deathbed and he is very aged yes uh and yeah and they bring in judas and then we'll know the guys then it seems like the uh rebellions happening outside so we hear like you know there's fire you're screaming and the disciples come in and they all come in and they're sort of like heard you were dying wanted wanted to see you been a long time and judas comes in and is like you fucked up it wasn't like this you were supposed to sacrifice yourself you got scared essentially you're about to die and then you got off the cross i did my part right why couldn't you do your part and this is my favorite part then he like turns to he's like then then judah jesus is like well i had i had a guardian god sent a guardian angel and judas like looks over and he's like bro that's satan takes one look one look immediate he's like have you ever seen a movie a little creepy girl yeah what are you talking about 10 years old who's like really calm that's a bad guy you're seeing resident evil yeah you ever see the red queen and the white queen yeah come on william striker's in your brain bro he's made cerebro bad bro jesus goes yeah i saw x-men 2 yeah of course i saw x-men 2 x-men united and he was like was that the actual title or is that more of a promo title the title is x2 title card in the movie is just x2 but i think it's fun to call it x-men united kind of but how united are they actually are fighting most of the time it is weird that the movie goes into a 15 minute argument about the title of x-men 2 between harvey kytel and willem dafoe and then so jesus like runs out you know being like i want to be fucking jesus i'm sorry he drags himself out yeah and it's it's a great scene it's also very kind of like it's a wonderful life yes you know uh yeah no well well i want to be crucified that cross looks fun to me they do a rewind like effect they bring it back to him would be very blasphemous but good like him like going like getting rewound black back onto the cross right yeah um and you have that like marty zoom of him like back on the cross right and he says it is accomplished this is where i'm starting to freak out like and i'm just like oh my god and then it you know it goes to those crazy lights and that was because a cameraman exposed the magazine too early oh yeah and it fucked up you know the film but it's like stan brackett shit almost that's the thing and so and when they shot they're like we're screwed because like willem can only be up there for a minute and like it's so hard to shoot this shit and then like they watched it like they he keeps the damage take as he's like it's like his soul is going to have the whole thing yeah it's it's perfect i when i was watching this i watched this uh on tuesday night was it was it last night i was last night we were recording i watched it last night yeah i watched it tuesday night last night and i had to like do stuff around the house so i have it on and i'm like paying attention i'm watching it but i'm also sort of doing things where i can but this last 30 minutes i'm just like transfixed in that part i'm i'm like every time it moves me it's just it's crazy it's sort of like really gets me what's like the movie itself is transcending like the phone from the camera is like rising to the it feels like in that moment that like they captured something very real yes and like it can't be expressed through normal beans anymore yeah and it is one of those things where i'm like if they could just tell all the people who are mad to watch the whole movie but they gotta watch it all they gotta watch it all the way because the end really sells it yeah yeah um the fact that peter gabriel gum just popping off yeah he did the movie basically for free yeah you know because like marty didn't have any money and he was like i loved it i brought in like voices from like all over the world like mixing all this music together released as passion music from great work music i listen to it all the time yeah i do i listen to it quite a bit too and i'm reading but like every movie set in the middle east now sounds like this because of this score a little bit well there's that 2000s era where there's always just a woman going like the minute they cut to like the helicopter shot of somalia or saudi arabia wherever usually the way it goes is it's like and then like a cut that's like a guy on like the street like kind of looking and then it's like drumming you see like a market yeah market i feel like i'm in the in a pitch meeting right now but i like watch this and i was like oh so this is where it all starts and then i go on to the wikipedia page for the album and it's like commonly cited as the breakthrough moment for world music in america no very much so i mean not only is it like this changes the way people think about it it's like it's like it's like it's like it's like of scoring films set in the middle east but this like popularizes new age world yeah i mean along with like a graceland right the pulse i'm like that's sort of like late 80s kind of like hey man there's music beyond european music class can be like there's there's other continents out there which i got their own instruments i'll believe it when i see it um the score says uh so this film okay in post-production start to get a little bit of trouble there's some demonstrations they're editing the film they want to show it to the audience they want to show it to the audience some religious groups like to screen it you know to sort of like get ahead of things the religious groups don't show up instead the only people at the screening are marty his crew jack valente head of mpa i assume at the time boom boom valente uh paul newman i guess he's just he's just in town the king of color money yeah and a man from time magazine uh then they finally got some religious people to see who are a little hostile but mostly are kind of into it um you know demonstrations are getting really ugly there's a lot of anti-semitism directed towards lou losserman who's the head of mca who has nothing to do with the movie you know what i mean like there's just a lot of general kind of like hate stuff happening schrader's viewpoint is like This is an anti-intellectual wing of social and political Christianity. Like, it doesn't have much to do with, like, Christian theological thought. It's what you're talking about, this sort of, like, weaponized political sort of wing of whatever, Christianity, that's sort of, like, becoming more and more powerful. The old Schrader script gets sent around. Apparently, that has something that sort of suggests that Jesus was maybe gay for a minute there or something. And they get really mad about that. And they're like, that's an old script. Like, we didn't shoot that. There's an actual thing called the Secret Gospel of Mark, which is, like, one of the apocryphal gospel texts. That was on ABC Family, right? Sorry. That's just a terrible, terrible joke by me. Can I get my alt? Yeah, please. And you could read that gospel on Lipstick Alley, right? That's right. That's correct, yes. Okay, but is that gospel, does that have, that suggests? It suggests, like, you know, that they have this, like, moment of ecstasy, and, like, it's sort of, like, well, what does that mean? And one suggestion is it meant sort of, like, an orgy. Interesting. But, like, that's, I doubt, I doubt Schrader's right. I mean, look, if they ever want to, like, you know, sort of jazz up the Bible for, like, a new generation, they can throw that in there. Are they sure it wasn't, like, a literal moment of ecstasy? Like, they took half a tab? Yeah, half a tab. Yeah, that's true. It's possible. I mean, just, just the, the, like, we've said this a couple times already, but the movie really does take quite seriously the, like, it positions Jesus as being very strange, a very strange man, in that he's in an age where the expectation is that the Messiah would be a literal king. A literal guy who would, like, kill the Romans. And, and, right, who would overtake and rule us all. Right, that's what people, the expectation was that, yeah, there's going to be a Messiah, he's going to show up, and he's going to sort of, like, beat the Romans. Beat the Romans to death and establish a kingdom where we can live as we please. That's leadership, basically, in those days? Yes. I mean, hey, man. It's kind of the one way. And, and the movies, Jesus portrayed as saying, no, it's, you know, the kingdom is already here. It is spiritual. It is, like, us loving each other, us, like, you know, accepting each other as, like, fully each other. It's recognizing God's limitless and universal love. And everyone's like, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard. Um, and. Which makes, people die, like, at the age of 32 back then. Yeah, right, right. What are you fucking talking about? But, like, maybe we're, like, we should be open to rethinking some of this. And, and the movie shows, like, Jesus is so persistent about this, it convinces people. People are persuaded. They believe him, and they follow him. And it's, it's a very powerful depiction of both, like, the radicalism of the message and the way that, yeah, then and now, it's sort of a, it's kind of a crazy thing to say. Yes. And it's, like, very funny to me that people who, like, hold, who self-identify as, like, you know, conservative Christian, fundamentalist Christian, what have you, would, like, see this and get angry about it. It's like, I don't, this is quite flattering to the entire system. It's why you assume a lot of them just didn't see it. Yeah, didn't see it, aren't thinking about it in those terms. But also that they've built a relationship with a modern version of Jesus that they have rebuilt to their worldview. Right. That they don't really want to be in conversation with what this guy was originally. And I'll say, I mean, to me, the most important line in the movie, theologically speaking, is when he is arguing with the religious authorities. And he says, God is not an Israelite. And that's very much a statement of, like, universalism. That, like, God doesn't belong to us. He's not a nationalist figure. He's for everybody. And that, you know, given the current political climate, like, I think people would hear that. Yeah. I think it's very upset, even today. Sure. Even that. Right. Right. Like, you know, because, you know, quite literally, like, the people running the military are like, yeah, God's an American. And he fucking loves F-35s. You wrote this on your Letterboxd log last night. But you said, one final thought. It makes total sense to me that fundamentalists hate this movie. Of course they would. Christ as emissary of total and all-encompassing love is in direct tension with the, quote-unquote, Christ of vengeance and domination that is in vogue in this country. Which is the thing. It's like. That sounds really good. It does. It's a good piece of writing right there. That's a nice little write-up. But it is. It's that, you know, they would hate this guy if they met him tomorrow. Yeah. Sure. Of course. Right. I mean, it's the same with all this shit. They'd fucking hate Ronald Reagan. They'd hate Ronald Reagan. They'd hate his ass. Nah, he'd win him over. He went to bed with a monkey? So, the film fundamentally also just comes out in August, which is a bit of an odd time to release it, but whatever. And doesn't make much money. You know. It made about $8 million. Would you have done Christmas? Hmm. Possibly. I mean. Easter? I mean, I don't know what the 80s landscape is. Like, now you're like, well, this is a prestige movie. Right. You want it in the fall. Like, blah, blah, blah. I mean, it's like, if you're trying not to court controversy, you release it in August. Yes. It's kind of smart of them to put it out in August, considering what clamor there was around it. Yeah. If this were a Christmas movie. People would be up in arms. Marty would legitimately have good reason to want to bodyguard with him at all times. He says the movie put him in debt, and like, he didn't come out of it until he made Cape Fear. It did do very well overseas. It made a decent amount of money. It made back its budget, certainly. Because it ended up making like 30 worldwide. I think 28 or 30. I don't know where you're getting that number, but I believe you. I saw it in a couple places. But, sure. I mean, because then, you know, the box office and all that are bad now. But, internationally grossed 25 million for a worldwide gross of 33 was in a variety write-up in 1995. But, as part of the deal of him agreeing to make this movie, he promised Universal that he would make a bigger budget film for them later, which he was planning to make Schindler's Ark, which later became Schindler's List, which turns into the swap that lands with Spielberg giving him Cape Fear. Right. So, Cape Fear is. Which is a moneymaker. Right. Although he says then, then Gangs of New York put me back in debt and then The Departed took me out of it again. Got him out of it. You know, who knows. But, yeah. Cape Fear is a direct result of his deal with Universal for this movie. It's a movie like Mulholland Drive. I wonder how many of these movies exist that gets one nomination at the Oscars for Best Director. Yes. It's very rare. Kind of the Oscar thing of like, I don't know, man. Good job. Like, fuck. Jesus. Well, Blue Velvet was the same thing. Did Blue Velvet only get the one nom? Blue Velvet only gets the one, I believe. I think Lynch is the only guy to pull that off twice. Wow. I need a full list. I need a full list of this, if the nerds can tell me, of like how many times that's happened. The film got great reviews. Like, it was celebrated by critics. But, obviously, between the controversy and it being a two-hour, 40-minute movie about Jesus, you know, it's not a life-changing, like, sort of success. It's had a great legacy. Yeah. I think it's now so well appreciated. I think it's, I think most people who like, you know, think about this stuff recognize it as, like, one of, like, the highlights of Scorsese's career. And I think it's given people much greater appreciation for Scorsese's just religious pictures, right? Like, yeah, right. Because, of course, because he makes Kundun in silence, he has this kind of loose trilogy about faith that is really fun to sort of, like, take in totality. Take as you will. Collider says there are seven movies. The End of the Sixth Happiness in 1958. I don't know where that is. Alice's Restaurant, Arthur Penn. Okay. Fellini's Satyricon. Oh, that's one for sure. New Velvet. Yeah. Last Temptation of Christ. Shortcuts. Mulholland Drive. Shortcuts is a wild one, too. Again, where they're just kind of like, look, man. You're back. Maybe too weird for us, but good job doing that. Yeah. That looked complicated. Those cuts were really short. That's the Rain Man year at the Oscars. Barry Robinson wins Best Director. Let's do the box office game. Barbara Hershey got a Globe. Globe nomination. That's interesting. Yeah, I forgot about that. Okay. Yes. God bless her. And I think it got Picture and Director at the Globes as nominations as well. The Globes were friendlier to this movie. Because they were more Euro, and I feel like this movie, apart from the fact that, like, half of Europe was on fire about it, like, this movie played better in Europe. Yeah. No, it just got, no, it just got Barbara Hershey in score. Oh, weird. Okay. Yeah. And, you know, that's kind of it. It made, like, the MBR top ten. Like, it didn't, yeah, it was mostly ignored. The rude, uh, Cattell. Cattell, raspberry nomination. Right. And then, of course, like, his follow-up is Goodfellas. His follow-up is Goodfellas. Which is, like, a good follow-up. Which probably just overshadows this as well, you know? A little bit, right? A hundred percent. The movie comes out August 12, 1988. It's opening number 13 at the box office, Griffin. So we're not going to consider it. Unlucky. Yeah, that's true. Number one at the box office is, um, uh, Western. It's a Western in 1988. It's not Silverado, is it? No. I would say it's a. A little. It's a Western with more of, like, a modern twist. Not in terms of setting, but in terms of, like, kind of attitude. Young Guns? That's correct. What if Guns were young? You know. Emilio Estevez, Kiefer Sutherland, Lou Diamond Phillips, Charlie Sheen. Mm-hmm. Dermot Mulroney? The big six? How many are we up to at this point? Yeah, that's six, guys. Six reasons why the West was wild. That's the, uh, tagline. Never seen Young Guns. Me neither. Um, but, uh, you know, Brat Pack. I guess it's, like, it's Emilio Estevez's ability. It's not really a kid, but it's, like, all made up. Right? I think they kind of made it up after that. I think that movie took some liberties. uh haven't seen young guns too but of course that also has the the classic tagline uh the west just got wilder the wild wild west you might say yeah well and then of course we were introduced to the wild wild west wild wild west jim west desperado keep going roughneck no you don't know nada oh there you go once nada or no no i can't remember yeah i remember nada nada we all remember nada uh what's number two at the box office number two at the box office is number one the previous week it's a big hit starring a big movie star you know it's a bit of a cult classic i would say this movie is stupid bullshit you would say this movie is stupid bullshit but you say it has rocks for brains yes exactly one of your favorite this movie has rocks for brains is exactly how to describe it it's pretty fun cult classic might be too nice to it because it was a hit like it was one of the big action stars you it's one of the big action stars it's not an action movie it's not no it's a but it kind of has an action movie sensibility to it it's not kindergarten cop no it's even stupider than that it's dumber than that it's one of the dumbest movies ever made it's one of the dumbest one of the biggest movie stars of the all time what could this possibly be so it's not it's not a bruce a stallone or shorts no no okay no sorry uh action star was maybe misleading that no bigger star than that bigger star less star okay it's kind of early ish in his stardom but no he's pretty famous for this you know he's made giant hits it's not a hanks no you're close i'm close same first name tom cruise that's right is it uh that's right jamal where you're gonna go i just want to say cocktail i mean the stupidest movie he ever made correct right that's what he's making a string of these movies who's like there's like young hot shot guy yeah it's true and it's just it's the classic like you know he's like so i became the best cocktail guy in the world and you're like what does that mean and he's like you know how you could mix a drink like this i don't do that i do i do the crazy thing a movie based on tgi fridays right based on the guy who invented tgi fridays yeah and how hot that was that they created a singles bar for the first time what if bars weren't where men went to not go to therapy what if bars are where men went to try to get laid and and the guys did crazy cocktails tom cruise brian brown brian brown is still alive do you think brian brown every like six months like texts and being like legacy mate yeah let's do it cocktail two is when we need to like hold a tom cruise intervention the fact that he's prioritizing color of money or prioritizing days of thunder over color of money i'm like my guy if you want to do another legacy sequel over doing top gun three don't do the fucking racing movie when you've already done top gun and they've already done f1 i don't think there's anything left to be said there yeah i assume with days of thunder he's just kind of like you know car will go fast people see it and they're like oh my god i'm gonna do it i'm gonna do it i'm gonna do it i'm gonna do it seem to like that right like i don't know do fucking color of money with a kaylee spainy or some shit cast someone i'm not thinking i don't understand well if you were to do a color of money legacy sequel wouldn't it just be the color of money again i think the way you could make it work is if it's somewhat you flip it back because what works in color of money is that there's such different types yeah that you need to think of what's the third type of pool hall hustler where cruise wouldn't quite understand coming from being such a hot shot how they do it yeah yeah maybe it's crypto maybe it's crypto this time that sounds great crypto it's in the way that you maybe it's like a fighting forester kind of movie thank you david that was pointed wasn't it i like that yeah um uh yeah so cocktails number two uh i've seen cocktail once it's uh i mean what what movie more has rocks in its brains than cocktail right like that's right it's on the rocks yeah well it is on the rocks number three box office is an action film that's one of the best movies ever made it's one of the best movies ever made die hard there you go there you go no die hard no question there been out for a month it's doing great people like it and it's gonna have a strong legacy as an action film what's proving to be very popular is its goodness is all the stuff that happens in it the quality of the movie number four the box office is a comedy that is a pretty solid hit and is also nominated for best director at the oscars in a somewhat uh fish called wanda fish called one had to be yes uh which you know kevin klein also charles crichton the uh ealing comedy director who's very old at that point yes so it's kind of a like hey good job i think his line was like it's it's an 80 year overnight success story or something like that yeah haven't seen it since i was a teenager love loved it then yeah you okay you know do i have to give you the heimlich maneuver yeah i mean god this many years and we gotta spice things up something crazy we all need to save each other the heimlich episode that's how we get another 10 years out of the podcast do you like a fish called wanda anyone like i've never seen it it's funny i like it i believe the baftas that year gave their best supporting actor to michael palin and i agree that michael palin is the best performance in that movie he's very funny um they nominated klein in lead as part of why that happened but then they gave john cleese the trophy for best lead they loved that movie i mean it's a very british movie and it was a success uh so i think they're really happy but palin's very funny i think palin's phenomenal in it palin also just one of my favorites i was gonna say you also just love the guy but klein's really funny klein's great in it and it's the rare like full comedic performance winning an oscar kind of right like where it's like goddamn like we got you know what else klein is in that movie hot hot as he's really oh klein rules he does jamel what do you the scene my bullets as someone who covers politics here we go the scene in dave where i've not seen dave in many years oh really yeah do you remember the scene where sigourney weaver walks in on him in the shower not at all okay is he hot map though he's really hot in it yeah sigourney hot map though sigourney's smoking hot isn't she yeah even though she's got like a hillary clinton haircut and pantsuits or what she looks great remember the basic premise of dave it's like the president's accountant or something becomes president no it's just a guy who looks like him president's a jerk has a stroke goes into a coma rather than deal with this they find someone who looks like him and they're like you'll just do what we tell you because we just need to get this like right and klein's like okay well whatever you want and then he's like and by the way i have some ideas like and he starts to be a really good president that's so it's so funny that that's funny but also in reality when this happens which it does on occasion the president has a stroke yeah they they pull a dave they do a weekend at bernie's no one pulls a dave they do like a sort of a weekend at bernie's no one pulls a dave they do like a sort of a weekend at bernie's no one pulls a dave they do like a sort of like yeah the president's still alive sure who gives a fuck the big thing in dave is they're like he's never waking up right right it's like this is it right is that then that is true or no he does he dies no he dies they pull the plug yeah they pull the plug you know i kind of think you know we have not on dave the other guy but then they pretend that dave died right these are dave spoilers if trump were to be debilitated i think i think we get a couple weeks of a weekend at bernie's no one pulls a dave they do like a sort of a weekend at bernie's no one pulls a dave they pull the plug yeah they pull the plug yeah they pull the plug where he was holding the day's newspaper in the one picture is the sort of like my t-shirt is answering questions as you know you know what i mean we're still like i'm so alive i'm holding this newspaper it's like right we all love to hold the newspaper to prove that we're alive every day like that's a normal way to go through life i hate generative ai but have you seen this subsection of videos that are like i'm mitch mcconnell and i'm holding up today's newspaper and then he takes out a helmet and he like pulls an ollie on like a skate ramp if not but that sounds like a use of ai i think that's maybe the most productive use we could come up with number five of the box office one of the great movies in 1988 one of the great covered it on this show uh classic it's not broadcast news is 87 that's right 88 also shopping mega bars it's a classic and what genre it's a comedy i guess uh family but two was really you know you know it's cool and crazy so like you know kind of classic movie that like scars kids a little bit it's cool and crazy and it scars kids and it's a classic makes them feel crazy it makes them feel it does i mean i'm right you'll you'll agree with me it's not a lynch movie no no no no it's a kid's way it's a disney kids movie oh no because little mermaids 89 is the great mouse detective nope great great guesses from you both no it's a disney movie that makes bigger than this big movie big hit movie it's a director it's a big hit movie from a big big director uh and it's a kid's movie it is you're gonna get mad maybe but it is it's a kid's movie it's it's for kids but it's really horny it's got yeah it is no one's gonna object these are good clues huh and this is scary main feed director we cover oh yeah this is my favorite of his movies oh oh oh i'm right about all of it oh he's right about all of it this picture is entitled who framed roger rabbit oh yeah ding ding ding ding ding i mean yeah it's horny it's very horny it's very scary one of the best movies I watched that like eight months ago. You show it to one of your kids? No, absolutely not. not and um the scene where the shoe gets to dip genuinely fucked up a generation yeah really i was very upset by it yeah it's one of the most tragic things to happen in the movies um number six of the box office so we will do this box office again one day is francis for coppola's a flop um tucker the man in his dream which is also good yes just interesting that marty and francis on the same weekend released like passion projects and everyone's like okay like you know like well let's be clear they weren't saying okay about last temptation of christ they were saying boo his audiences i think were largely sort of like you know pleasantly ignoring this movie yes sure but also you have to imagine if there's that level of protest happening outside the theater you might not want to go to the theater i think there wasn't so much of that after a certain point it was more more pronounced in europe i think yeah um tucker man in his dream um is an awesome movie for cool kids yeah i don't know if you've seen it jamal but it's about preston tucker i'm not it's about like you know like the problem of america of a guy being like i think i can do things differently within the system i can build a better car stop it you know you're fucking everything up like you're not allowed to do that great movie very interesting but it was a flop number seven the box office is uh coming to america one of the big hits of the year it's my favorite eddie movie yeah it's a good movie yeah um still haven't seen the sequel uh waiting for a great day i want to be bummed out i remember it being fine but here's what i also remember it was none of the covid pandemic early 2021 exactly right uh my brain was engulfed in flames number eight is midnight run great movie i mean there's so many movies in the box office right now number nine penny marshall's big big we'll cover it on the show someday do you know that he has a dad in that movie uh sure what do you mean you watch that movie and it plays as if mercedes rule as a single mother and there's one scene where they go to the carnival where he sees the zoltar machine for the first time and makes the wish and there's a guy who's like hey don't go far and you're like oh this is mercedes rules shitty boyfriend or something right there's a director's cut there's a penny marshall cut that's 30 minutes longer that mostly adds in more elizabeth perkins and i would say makes her character make a lot more sense sure makes her seem far less demented but also at the same time adds back in the father and she just cut out every single time the father appears for this one moment okay it's fascinating we're going to talk about it whenever we do penny marshall yeah which we will do yeah what's that her second film yeah it's her second film jumping jack is the first yeah weird movie number 10 of the box office is a film i'm sure you like as well michael keaton stars in clean and sober a movie i love i defend her i was not able to get enough respect for it when i did uh michael keaton mount rushmore on big picture but i would have made the case for that to be one of his four he it's that and beetlejuice the same year right and the national board of review or was it new york film critic circle maybe i think new york film critic circle gave him best actor for clean and sober and beetlejuice uh i'm sorry you got no respect thank you um it's 100 what the oscar should have done this year given you respect no given a a trophy oh to that was half beetlejuice half clean and sober of course yeah give griffin your respect give me a little respect finally uh the national society of film critics did that okay new york gave him best actor for spotlight also kind of a cool win yeah uh number 11 opening new this week is mac and me just wanted to shout that out too okay so as we said great movies up and down the list mac and me that's the one with the the paul rudd clip correct and a lot of mcdonald's right yep where they have the big dance sequence at the mcdonald's yes which kind of goes and mac is usually a puppet but in that scene it's a little person in a costume oh oh good um so that's the box office yeah and you know it's i just i think i'm not sure when this movie got its respect speaking about giving something proper respect but uh when did this movie have its anti-rodney moment you know i i think it's very esteemed now i guess because of marty's general esteem and because of the run he went on in the 2000s it's still not like a canonical marty masterpiece for sure some sure i guess but it's a very well regarded movie it's one of my favorites it's interesting i i think it's well regarded my sense it's well regarded but when i think of when you say canonical marty movies it kind of falls out of that because i just don't think i don't think that people think this happened a couple years this was the thing a couple years ago on social media people still think of scorsese as he's the gangster gangster yes right and so jj's favorite bit right people just don't think of the last sensation in the movie because it's or silence age of innocence as being like marty movies right um in the same way but what's like this jesus is as central of this guy's entire filmography as anything right yes going back to mean streets going back to mean streets um jamal is there anything you want to plug anything i want to plug uh you know my columns every week at the times i have a youtube channel you've been doing great videos that i've been doing are you still on tiktok or are you kind of moving on or are you still on tiktok or are you still on tiktok or are you still on tiktok moving over to you i'm still i know you're doing tiktoks i'm still doing tiktoks but the youtube channel it's called takes it's called takes takes ever so often someone's like you didn't really trademark because it's like takes tm yeah you didn't really trademark takes did you no it's it's a no you did it i did actually if anyone does it take five bucks i get i get a couple dollars um it's a joke well you make a lot of money anytime i film a movie because they're on take five and they owe you true now are you telling me that people on the internet can't take a joke i maybe people on the internet can't take a joke okay it was just my youtube page it's just like jamal buoy uh easy to find and uh check that out it's sort of like if you i understand people have feelings about the new york times and so if you don't want to like read new york times and i do kind of basically sort of not the equivalent of my columns but like you know little right seven eight minute like arguments observations you're doing some video editing um you're getting in the mix here i'm getting the mix let me also throw this out not to steal ben's usual line of compliments here you've been throwing fits you've been a well-dressed man but but the last year or so i think you've stepped up to a whole other level oh thank you i appreciate you look incredible today you look incredible in the videos your jacket is great thank you amazing jacket collection um thank you so much uh so that's that's the main other thing and uh i don't really have anything else to plug i you know they released these like three weird flavors of oreos uh chicken and waffles banana pudding and fried banana pudding sounds kind of good fried and i'm gonna i i i before i came here i ordered them and they'll be at my house when i get home and i'm gonna do like a stream that's exciting so if you want to see me eat weird oreos yes absolutely i am looking at this this is very interesting i'll be doing that too amazing uh fried they just call it deep fried because that's like the carnival thing no i know that but obviously it looks like the actual oreo that you're buying though it's just kind of a it's kind of like a triple decker but the cream inside is flavored as if there's a fried coating it sounds a little again scott but i'm i'm genuinely curious about these chicken and waffles is very interesting savory oreos i get a little touchy about have i told you about the city field egg rolls have we talked about this no i mean i've been to city field yeah with you so you know city field has a walk and roll which is like an egg roll place and they have a a different themed egg roll a very funny egg roll place we should mention walk and roll yeah um different themed egg roll for every visiting team and so for the atlanta braves they had a chicken and waffles egg roll which is what i'm thinking about it america's just such an interesting place yeah you know they're just like what if we stuff x into y yeah it's such a brand of how we nailed we're failing across so many different levels yes but on the question of food innovation oh food science we've never been better tahin cheesy gordita crunch cheesy gordita that's true we started with this chat now we're ending with obviously you've been on dope boys several times i feel like uh yeah uh check out those appearances i'm jealous of whoever's gonna get the tahin menu as well an episode right um probably barack obama next week bro i i'm actually reasonably confident barack obama would go on dope boys do we think he listens do we think he's spoon nation or burger brigade um i don't know good question i'm uh something of a heat seeker next week on uh blank check good fellas good fellas haven't recorded that one yet no um good over on the patreon yeah what we got we released new york stories oh yeah sure as well as amazing stories right stories a double a double feature of stories but we're just gonna cover marty's new york just marty's segment twilight zone the movie rules uh so that's happening over there thank you all for listening this reminds me i do i have one more thing to plug please my podcast unclear and present danger john gans about the political and military doors 1990s yeah so just need to plug that what what movies have you covered recently this week we're recording the x-files movie the new cut uh no the old cut okay fight the future right the future okay but do you know about the new cut i've heard about the new cut i want to see the new cut because my main thought on this old cut is that the editing choices are inexplicable but this is new cut of second movie yes okay that's called like der frankenstein david uh something like that look chris carter i love you i'm very glad you're getting pushed out on a big boat or an ice flow and this is the last thing like it so clearly reeks of him like He brought back the X-Files, right? And the first season he brought back was pretty. pretty bad people didn't like everyone was like god but it's great to see everyone and there were a couple good episodes and he's like i can fix it and he's like i'll do another season and everyone was like oh my god enough enough you know what enough buddy and he's like what and they just picked it up he's like okay but before you take it away from me can i recut the second movie and call it i want to believe uh vac frankenstein and they're like well yeah whatever yeah fine like go ahead we'll put it on disney plus and that's enough out of you its new subtitle is dr frankenstein in german because he's like i'm like dr frankenstein reconstituting this corpse all right well we didn't watch that no no quite the future is canonical 90s conspiracy thriller great movie i love that movie it has some weird choices i agree but great movie uh so that's that's all that's already interrupted no no very important shout out of course absolutely and with that having been said thank you all for listening please remember to rate review and subscribe tune in next week for good fellas and as always i'd like to try some alts if i can try some alts quickly okay willem de redeemer willem de bread of life willem de lord willem de son of the living god yeah how about willem de carpenter yeah willem de carpenter willem de son of man willem image of the invisible god willem de lion of the tribe of the judah and of course willem de christ willem de christ willem de christ willem de christ father son no sorry let me try that again father willem willem de son and holy ghost willem de father willem de son yeah willem de father willem de son willem de holy ghost because it's the trinity they're all one in the same they are beautifully said blank check with griffin and david is hosted by griffin newman and david sims our executive producer is me ben hostley our creative producer is marie bardy salinas and our associate producer is aj mckeon this show is mixed and edited by aj mckeon and alan smithy research by jj birch our theme song is by lane montgomery in the great american novel with additional music by alex mitchell artwork by joe bowen holly moss and pat reynolds our production assistant is minic special thanks to david choe jordan fish and nate patterson for their production help head over to blank check pod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit join our patreon blank check special features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes follow us on social at blank check pod subscribe to our weekly newsletter checkbook on substack this podcast is created and produced by blank check productions