The Knicks’ insane Game 4 comeback is a model for all leaders: A deep-dive into the psychology of why New York is up 3-1 in the NBA Finals

Test test. Alvarado starts spreading. Why don't you come to your senses? Give my state a mind. ♪ Na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na >> Did you like that one of the cop cars, it's, oh wait, that is like a cap car. >> Holy. >> Oh. >> Misses off the side. >> That's amazing. >> Oh my god. >> Holy canole. >> Holy canole. >> Holy canole. >> The next one. >> Holy canole. >> The next are three one in the NBA finals. >> Oh my god. >> After the largest comeback in NBA finals history, they were down 29 against the spurs and they won 107 to 106. >> I don't even. >> We were there. We were there. We were in the room where it happened. >> Period. >> I'm not going to sing it. >> Did I say two things for that? >> Did I say two things? >> Yes. >> I have two things I want to workshop with the crap that I workshop with my husband. >> Hell yeah. >> He did most of the work. >> Let's rock and roll. >> All right. Are you ready? My tailor is swift. My Joe is fat. My Ben is stiller. OG Ananobi is a Wembee killer. >> Wow. >> There's option one. >> Okay. >> Okay. Option two. See what the shareholders like more. My canal is toxic. >> Stop it. >> Can I? >> Can I? >> Can I? >> You're about to do it. >> What you're about to do. >> You'll see. >> Okay. >> Next at you is Liberty. My dollar slice is well done. And the nicks. >> What? >> Wow. That's pretty good. >> Michael, you have to believe it. >> It's really good. I really love this. >> Which one do you like more? >> Can I? >> Yes, Anne? >> Please. >> Please. >> Can I see the? >> Yes. >> Okay. >> My tailor's swift. My tailor's swift, my Joe fat, my Ben stiller, OG is a Wembee. >> With the comeback thriller. >> It's good. >> Okay. All right. Okay. It's really, these are phenomenal. >> Okay. >> My canal is toxic. And my canal, for those who don't know, it's a reference to the Goanis Canal in Brooklyn. Just look it up. It's one of the most plated bodies of water in the world. >> My Goanis toxic. My Goanis tunnel mask. >> Anyways. >> It's amazing. Thank you for that. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Cutter. >> Wow. Wow. Okay. >> Before we get into vibes and everything we're going to talk about, just could you give three words to describe what it was like to witness what we witnessed last night? >> All the words to come to mind are so lame. You know what I mean? It's like special electric. >> Yeah. >> Breath taking? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Which aren't, which aren't the descript, like it, I want to get more specific. Like it, explosive. >> Explosive. >> It was. >> I think mine would be, I agree, mine are a little generic, but I would say magical, unbelievable, and shocking. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Just shocking. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Yeah. >> I woke up this morning and I couldn't believe what happened. I was like, were we dreaming? >> No, I know. It was really wild. >> We, this is coming up Friday morning. If you listen to our live stream from the floor of Madison Square Garden, which is also a crazy thing to say, thank you. I think this is, at first when we were talking about this week's schedule of shows, I was like, oh boy, okay, how are we going to do this? If we have to do, we got to get something up after the game, but also like we want to have an episode that feels fresh for Friday. And I'm so glad we don't have to worry about that because this win and that moment was so huge that it's going to carry over. This is all, this is all anybody in New York and just because it's such a massive sports thing and there's so many nix fans like in the sports world, like there's a game on Saturday. >> Yeah. >> And we're good till then with this episode. >> Do you know what I mean? >> Yes, yes. >> Because it was so massive and I think you looked at me. What did you say? >> I looked to you right when the clock went to zero and the said nix went on the jumbo tron, I turned to you and I said, did we just witness sports history? And you said, yeah, we did, we did. Because what was the only other thing you could compare it to that you've witnessed? >> The only other thing that came close to that was the first Super Bowl I ever covered, which was the 2017 Patriots come back against the Falcons when they were down 28 to 3, which had the same, and again, I'm so sorry to talk about the Patriots right now. It's okay. >> If this had been any other team, I still would have been talking about it. >> Yeah, because it has the same psycho leader and I say that with deep respect that Tom Brady and Jalen Brunson, Jalen Brunson has a quality that is very rare, which is that you feel safe when he has the ball and you believe because you know, he believes that even the impossible is possible. That sounds so corny. >> No, but it's true. It's true. Yeah, you're watching him command the floor, but also command his own mind and his teammates' mind and the mind of the players that he's playing against. >> Yeah, and it's really good in New York, really. >> Yes, and just it's like even when they were down 29, 30 points, I'm sure in his mind he wasn't even thinking about it. He's so locked in and he has the ability to just zone in on what the goal is and block out all of the other noise, ignore the fact that they're down by 30 points and still finish the job. >> You know, what he said on inside the NBA after Shaq asked him, you know, was, did you think about the fact that this, that you were down essentially, that you were down 30, like this is over. >> Yeah. >> And he said, I thought about it, but then I realized just where we're at. You're allowed to think about the worst possible scenario, but you got to go out there and do something about it. It's me having my teammates back fighting for every possession, so it's almost this brilliant kind of leadership because he says, you know, I'm not, I'm not going to pretend I didn't think about it. >> Yeah. >> But I'm going to acknowledge I thought about it and then I said, okay, let's change this. And we're going to, this episode is about, is like a deep dive into why the NICS are such a great example of leadership and teamwork in any organization and like this, this could be like a TED Talk about why the NICS in 2026 where they are 3-1 right now are what you should model your organization on. >> Yeah. >> Before we get to that, though, Madeline, let's do some of the fun stuff. >> Oh my God. >> I mean, the funniest thing about this is the intensity of it and then you go home and we were both just like on the couch wired. I watched, my husband and I watched 3, I was up until 3 in the morning, I mean, 330. I mean, we were also like doing stuff for the show. We were putting stuff up. We were planning this episode like, but it was also like, we watched 3 of the same sports centers. >> Yes. >> 3 of the same sports centers. I was swiping through my camera roll, just watching videos that I had taken or you had taken in our shared album. And then I was just switching between Instagram, TikTok and Twitter and watching the same clips in different formats. >> Yes. >> Horizontal version of OG Tipeted and Vertical version. I'm watching Taylor Swift over and over again, I'm watching Ben Stiller over. I was basically consuming the same content just slightly different angles or slightly different formats for like two hours on the couch eating dots, pretzels, that you saw in person. That I saw in person. That I saw with my own two ads. It's not like I wasn't there. >> I think some of the behind the scenes stuff for this game was really cool because we were able to be right at the tunnel, right at the entrance to the court. We had some lovely NBA PR people who really hooked us up, shout out, your real ones. >> Yeah, who you are. >> And the funniest thing was that we were waiting for 45 minutes for Taylor Swift to come in. And we, we, we, we staked out our position, like we were, we were being very smart about it. And then there was a commotion and she had just walked behind us, walked behind us. And there is a clip. I will have our lovely editor, Micah, insert it where you can see my purple pants in the background of Taylor Swift walking. I'm not paying attention at all. I am looking the other way because most of the other people were coming from the other way. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> So we thought she was going that way and then she fully just passed us. But that wasn't the only time we saw her. >> No, no. >> We did have a successful run in. >> We did have a successful run in at the half when she was going back to her seat. >> It was pretty crazy, I feel like, I don't know if it was because Trump was at game three. I don't know what was going on. There were so many more famous people there this time, it felt like, like game three felt like it was sort of the Nick's original celebrity fans. >> Yes. >> And also again, it's such a shame that the everyday fans who have loved this team through thick and thin can't afford to be in that building. >> I know. That sucks monumentally. And we were sitting there and I was like, I wish I had enough money to just buy out these things, and do a lottery and send real fans because as electric as a garden was, and amazing as it was, there were times where people were sitting down, or it was quiet. And it's like, if you had the guys from, if you had the guys and gals from Smith Street, or right outside MSC, it would be at the building would have exploded. Yeah, it felt like, I mean, there was good energy throughout, but there was not good energy. Like unbelievable energy until the end. Yeah, when people, when people were like, oh my god, they're gonna come back. Whereas I will say the contrast in San Antonio, if I'm being objective, those fans, they were standing, they were cheering more than the next. Yeah, there was a, there was a, I gotta say, sorry. Amazing crowd, we're not taking away this. The crowd was crazy. Oh, and OGN will be tipped in the ball. What is that? It's out of control. One of the greatest crowd explosions of all time, probably. It's just, you know, the, the, the reality of it. Like in San Antonio, there was a mom in front of us in the nosebleeds where, you know, the press gets put. And she had five kids with her. Yeah, and I was like, oh, how cool. Yeah, that's accessible. Do you know what I mean? I know, but anyway, so I know. It was pretty crazy seeing all these people come in. Timmy and Kylie. Timmy and Kylie, we got a list from MBA parent. There were over 113 celebrities named up a list. And there were certainly more that were there. Let's, I'm just some couple have obviously been stiller. Carmelo Anthony, Mariska Hargote, Christie Turlington. Didn't even say her. Apparently she was a Joe, fat Joe, Jeremy Lynn. He got a huge round of applause, former Nick's legend. John Stark's obviously Jimmy Fallon, Kiki Palmer. I mean, Kately Bieber. Kately Bieber. Keryn did. The funniest thing we see when we were in the hallway during half time, yeah. And I was watching Wu Tang and we were waiting for Tyler, Tyler Taylor. Also, amazing Wu Tang performance, Wu Tang plan. I think that they're not getting enough credit for the vibes. Oh no, they, they shade, they staged it. Method Man's and Nick's in five. Yeah. Then the Nick's turned it around the second half. Yeah. But we were in the hallway and Kid Harrington, who is John Snow in Game of Thrones. And it also plays Henry Muck in industry of which we're both huge fans. Yeah. He was just strolling by himself. And there's something so funny about seeing the celebrity at a sporting event, walking by them. It's like they're a sim from the gate, the big, the sims. They're like hyper aware that everybody's looking at them, but also they're just trying to get a drink, but also it was just very funny. Yeah, I know. I know. It's almost like a performance. Loved you in industry. Well, we said it to ourselves. He probably heard it. Oh, I'm thinking about it. We said it out loud. We said it out loud. No, no, no. It'll be in the vlog. Which is out now. But yeah, so then we finally got a video of Taylor. We finally got a video of Taylor. And she comes out with the Hines sisters and her security and everyone. And she's, I think someone said to her like, can we, can we get, let's go next or something like that. And she starts cheering for the next as she's about to go back out to sit court side, which I really like. That was also a good vibe shift. Yeah. Half time too, which was nice. We also said this on our live stream. So forgive us if you're listening to this as well. But we, I do understand when we were watching Taylor and Travis at the Cavs game, and everyone was like, isn't Taylor Nick's fan? We were like, I don't think this means she isn't a Nick's fan. She's wearing neutral colors to be respectful of her fiance's team because he's a Cavs fan. I think it would have been cool if she'd worn Nick's gear to the, I also understand not doing that. Yes. But we were like, she's not cheering when the, when the Cavs score. She was, she, she put on a master class and being a supportive partner without cheering for the team that is not your team. So to Taylor Swift, get the supportive partner of the past few weeks award. So wow. Do we think she's got that? Or do we think that goes to Jordan Woods? I think it goes to all of the nicks. The wives and girlfriends. Yeah. I think so. And Timmy. But Timmy or Sherry would act the challenge. But yeah, she, she showed up and showed out and was cheering. And we were watching her. She was like whipping Mariska Hargoye, who, from Law and Order SV, like, like, to the point where I was like, it was like, when be doing the Jalen Brunson foul. Oh, yes. Did you see the photo that's going viral of Taylor Swift hugging Mariska Hargoye? And she, Mariska looks like she's like, kind of crack-dolling. She's like this. She's like this. We've a video of it. If you zoom in. Oh, man. She has to do her head. Mariska's head is just whipping back and forth. I know. The other funny thing Mariska did was right after the next one, she runs onto the court. Did you see this with Jalen Brunson? With Rick Brunson? No. She leaps into the arms of Rick Brunson, like, like, into his arms. And I think he, like, thinks like, yes, we'll put the clip in. It's unbelievable. Fully the clock just struck zero, finals up. And then she just immediately sprints on the court straight to Rick Brunson, which I love. I loved it. Oh, my God. It was so great. Well, Jalen, I think he said he would watch Law and Order SVU on the road. Yeah. And so that was a lovely little connection they have. Really sweet. Yeah. And we were going to talk about maybe that we said, I think, on Tuesday, we were going to talk about other stuff this episode. You can't. I'm sorry, guys, we can't. We're talking about the World Cup next week. We have, don't worry, don't worry. We will. Yes. But we can't talk about today. This has been, I think, to be able to be there and witness this, um, for them to be up three, one in the finals, uh, do it's a little speechless, speechless. It's true. They're, it's all, they're really our words. As I said, the three words are described, but it's like, all you can think of are just like inspirational generic words because it's really hard to put into words what we witnessed. I mean, we're in the elevator with some media people after the game. Oh, yeah. That's just crazy. And this guy turns us. I don't remember who it was. So apologies. It feels in the show. We don't know him. I don't know who he was. We didn't, we didn't know this guy. No. And he, he turns us. And I don't remember exactly what he said, but something along the lines of, you know, we just witnessed history. I think what he said, what do you remember what he said? I think he said there was silence in the elevator and then he just sort of looks around. He said to everyone in the elevator, he goes, we were a part of this. Yeah. That's what he said. And I was like, and he looks sort of close to tears. And there's just that feeling is what sports do at their best. And we've said this for as long as this run has gone on now. But, you know, we did this panel last night, Amelia Petracher, who is the amazing substack shop rat, invited us to be a part of this with Nike, a fashion and sports summit. Just also funny, because we made record time from Mulberry Street to the guard. I think we got into the MTA. Yeah, we got into MSG in 12 minutes, it was 12 minutes door to door from Soho to MSG. We also walked fast. We were bulking it. We were fat. But it was really cool to be a part of this panel. But like we were talking on there about the ancillary content that is popped up around sports. Yeah. And obviously we're a part of that. None of this exists. None of the interest in the players, in the wags, in the clothes, in whatever it is that gets you and the celebrity fans, whatever gets you, what your entry point is. None of that exists if the core of it isn't these electric moments. Like the reason anybody cares about all of the fun stuff, the reason we have this show is because the action on the court or field or pitch or track, whatever it is, is it makes you feel things that is a high, that is hard to access safely in your life. Yeah. It sports provide you in those moments a safe, joyful way to be ecstatic with a group of other people and the videos from New York of everyone. So all of this is based on the foundation of people doing superhuman things with their bodies and their minds in a way that you can't help but marvel at. No, you can't help but marvel at it and none of this will be possible without the live event. Yeah. There is nothing without the game. There isn't. No. All the videos of people reacting on the streets, the game team projected on the street in the Westfield and Soho and Fort Green and Brooklyn, wherever like none of these, we wouldn't have any of that without the game. Yeah. It's true. And it's just a beautiful thing. It's beautiful. It's also on the other end of it. It's like when your sports team loses the closest feeling is heartbreak. Yeah. It's like the worst you can feel is getting dumped or your team blowing a 29 point lead. So I'm so sorry to spurs fans. Sorry. This is a New York centric pod because we live here and we are experiencing it here. Yeah. And Madeline's a Nick's fan and I'm married to one and you know, like, yeah, but we feel for you. And as much as it was an amazing comeback by the Nick's, it was a massive collapse. Total collapse. By the spurs. Total collapse, total collapse. We saw their, quite frankly, immaturity, sorry, sorry to spurs, sorry, won't be so it is what it is. It is what it is. Well, we'll get so we'll get to all of us. We'll get to all of it. But before we do, we have our fun eBay live segment. We got a question from a shareholder this end again because we were a little delirious. I have my bag, but it's not with me. So we're going to pick our question out of the Colby pennant that my husband bought off of eBay. Yes. Okay. So the question from a shareholder is what would be your lucky bag that you'd want from eBay for context? Jordan Woods has her orange bag, Carly Anthony Towns, his fiance that she brought, she brought to the game last night. She did not bring it to game three. She transformed it into a shoe because she couldn't bring it back because of Trump. But what would be your lucky bag that you would want? What is Jordan Woods' bag? I think it's from her line. Really? It's an orange appear. I think it is. It's nice. Yeah. Woods by Jordan, our own brand. Damn, really? Yes, it's not. That expensive and I see some of these how much is her I think it's isn't it this one? Yeah, it's a version of this one It's a version of this has a strap hundred twenty five dollars. No way not too bad. It looks great I thought that was air mezz or so or like some I don't think so. Oh, it's pre-order so it's sold out. Wow wow Okay, I think mine the first one that comes to mind if I had a lucky bag that I was looking to purchase It would probably be a vintage Chanel classic flap in caviar leather leather with gold hardware pre 2000 Ish because that's when they still use I believe I don't remember what year they stopped using it But the eight I think it's 18 karat gold for getting specific. Wow. That's what I want that would be your lucky bag I think so. Yeah I Think I my dream is I'm driven a little bit crazy. I see I get served a lot of videos of People unboxing air mes bags. Yeah, and they're all these people who Whose faces don't move who are like you know have been to Paris and just want you to know that they've been to Paris And that they can get a quote leather appointment at their mes and I'm really over it I think that it's I'm really sick of people having nice things and not using them So almost I really want a Birken. I want a big tote that's a Birken and I want to Hearted me. I want to use it as a tote the way Jane Birken and God intended I want to beat that thing up. I want it to have scratches on it I want to tie a little bandana around the strap. I want a twilly. I want to use that bag Yes, and that would be my good luck bag because I think that that if you have something nice things are meant to be used Functional things are not meant to be kept in glass or their box or tissue paper Because what else or what do we do? What are we serving preserving the value of something so that you like it's a bag use your stuff Use your stuff. It's a bag. You put a wall at it and some keys and we're doing a chapstick and if you're lucky enough to go and eBay I'm be able to afford one of these beautiful bags that someone else has so foolishly preserved by it and use it Yeah, use it Scratch it up and I didn't intend to go on that rant right then, but I did well. I appreciated that rant and I couldn't agree more Well, thanks to our mail-back sponsor eBay live can't miss live streams heart pounding auctions iconic fashion and collectibles Whatever you're into you can bring it home right now. Don't miss another second at ebay.com slash ebay live Okay, great. Thank you all right, so When we were talking about what we were going to do for this episode It sort of became clear that the way that we've been talking about the nicks and the and the unbelievable things that they have been Doing because they believe is only possible because of the kind of team that they have yeah, so I think that it's important to Know that Teams are businesses sports we always say sports teams are businesses franchises are businesses these people are employees But also businesses are teams. It's sort of the oldest cliche in the book of like and using sports analogies in and workplace But but the nicks show that if you do it correctly and there is real leadership both from the top and within the co-workers. Mm-hmm. It is You you develop processes and abilities to see and do what other people can't do or can't believe yeah It's possible. Yes. Yes, and that starts from the top Yeah, and there has to be we talk about this all the time But it is so important that there is trust from leadership to the players and vice versa Because if that doesn't exist then you're you're not going to come back from a 29-point deficit or whatever it was What did you think about when we were in the press conferences and head coach Mike Brown came in? Yeah Well, someone asked him what did you say at halftime to your team is and he said we didn't show tape We didn't look at what was happening in that first half We let the guys talk amongst amongst themselves and that to me is good leadership And it's also trust in the players that they can get it together as we said in the live and I'm saying it again There are adults there are adults. They're not 12 year olds who need a little pick me up little pep talk They can figure it out amongst themselves and he trusted them to figure it out amongst themselves I'm sure he says them said some Moving words to them. I don't think it was probably silent while he was in there But I think that was the most interesting. Yeah Take away an indicator of the fact that there is such good leadership that he said at halftime we're not moving to So what does her to say right you guys talk amongst you do you know what to do. Yeah, he also said He had sort of a Ricky Bobby S quote from Taladega Knights will Ferrell's character where he was like I said to them In sports you gotta get lucky Sometimes you get sometimes it's luck sometimes you have to go out there and make your own look And so we got to make our own and it was like very true and real and sweet But also he said the word luck like 10 times in a way that was just endearing. Yeah, it was like something from dodgeball. Yeah But it's true that That's those those the forces have to come together to The ball has to bounce in your direction. Yeah, literally But also then you have to do the things you know how to do and yeah, there's this Three keys for a successful team by this this guy writes about businesses Patrick Lensioni and I looked into him. I didn't see anything sketchy But if he's a sketchy guy, sorry, but he has a theory that I really like And I and I hate business books and I don't like Reductive sort of like you have to do this isn't this but this one has really stuck with me Because it's something that you and I talk about a lot in terms of our little business here wilder Yeah, which is that to be successful you need to be hungry You need to be intelligent and you need to have humility you need to be humble And if you don't have one of those three things you're screwed. Yeah, um and all of this comes down to ego and being able to realize that The best thing you can do for your ego is let go of it because if your team wins You're gonna look better than you've ever looked before If it doesn't because you were selfish. Yeah, you look like a Jamaque. Yeah, you look like a real big idiot No, yeah, it's true It's true and and I think that we've seen this constantly from the nicks like Carl Anthony Towns and Jose Alvarado They weren't they've had a press conference that we were in and they were talking about How moving it was to be two kids from the area who grew up playing it how they couldn't believe they were playing at Madison Square Garden Have the moment was so big. That's humility. Yeah, that's saying I recognize what I am privileged to be a part of here and what I'm making happen But they're also really smart because they're saying okay, we have to do something we've never done before In in terms of 29 point comeback. We're gonna try to do it um and also They're hungry. Yes, you don't get this far By not wanting it more than anybody else. No, no, I mean To be down As bad as they were in a not complementary way again as we said in the live And to be able to turn that around that takes up that takes a skill that I don't even think you can put into words That that is just something they have that dog in them truly. I mean all all of them on the on the court they really did I mean, you know, let's OG had 33 points bronze and at 36 points yet cat was in foul trouble We forgot about that we didn't talk about that during the live and then everyone else was essentially in single digits But even so everyone was still fighting. Yes, it feels like however they they put together this team There was this special secret ingredient that each of these players had and it's The the will to win no matter what and and you could see in contrast with the spurs That it when he looked exhausted. Mm-hmm. He looked like he was just I mean I feel like I was rewatching the fourth quarter this morning Yeah, and he was like hunched over He's just like drag. I mean, he looks so exhausted and they just looked very disjointed and energetically disjointed It's not to say that this birds do not have the will that they wanted to win of course But it felt like they didn't believe it whereas the nicks You could see it in their eyes that they believed that they could win. Yes And they really did believe they did believe it. It's not like oh, I'm being delusional and I think I'm gonna win But also maybe it was a little bit delusional I don't know that they thought that they could win and and that's something that is just so special And is so rare to see in professional athletes who are all paid millions of dollars All have probably big egos to your point to put the egos aside and say no We're just gonna come back as a team and win. Yeah, yeah totally and and Brunson talked about That belief um, he said One word that captures it all is belief believing in each other believing in the process Chipping away one possession at a time. It wasn't one play one momentum play. It was hitting singles getting on base Keep shipping away and I think in a world where everything is condensed down into content and even going back to your high school gym or your elementary school gym where there's an inspirational poster on the wall Things like believe become flattened and meaningless But what the nicks are doing has illustrated How real it is and how it's not a cliche and how you kind of have to claw back the meaning of these words So that they actually mean something again. Yeah Because I think Every player here like Jose Alvarado only played 16 minutes, but a lot of it was in the fourth quarter And he had eight points and he started he hit a three to start a run and then capped off an aido run when he Had an assist to Carl Anthony towns for a three and it was just you saw them clawing Saw them saying we are not going to give up um and all of this was in spite of the Biggest possible distractions, but we haven't even talked about this yet like Gay so game three trump was there we talked a lot about that on our Tuesday episode go listen if you haven't yeah vibes were off Or really bad vibes. Really, really bad vibes. It was horrific to get into the building. It was like seeing Hitler at the Munich Olympics when he was standing there and he's like lit up. No, it's freaky. You said he looked like a wax school. No, he did. It was like, yeah, not good. I didn't like it. And then James Dolan, the owner of the next, we also talked about on Tuesday. Yesterday, he or sorry, two days ago now, if you're listening on Friday, on Wednesday, James Dolan picked a fight with Zora and Mom Donnie, the Mayor of New York, through a series of statements back and forth. Yes. Press releases, which imagine being the person in Madison Square Garden, who has to type those out and send them. They're like, oh my God. It was crazy. And one of them, he accused Mom Donnie and the NYPD of creating a quote, police state. Because basically, it appears that the Knicks submitted their permit request for a watch party for 999 people, which the mayor's office approved. They approved that permit. But Dolan was mad because he said it should be for more people. But they put in the permit for 999 people when they could have put in a permit request for more. And they didn't. And it feels like they were setting, Dolan was setting up Mom Donnie and the NYPD commissioner Jessica Tish so that he could say, you only approved a permit for a thousand people. Right. And then say, well, we're canceling it if we can't have the whole thing. So it's like, Dolan wanted to cancel the watch party in the first place. But he had come up with a clever way to make it the mayor's fault. And then the mayor was like, well, I have the receipts and the receipts were published. And you're the one who wanted the president to come to the game. And that's the reason we have these barriers set up in the first place. Right. Right. Um, which they did for the record, the game game before they did have the barriers up again for the exclusion zone, um, which we were concerned was going to be a mess. It did not seem to, we got in in five seconds. So I don't, I don't know what it was like earlier, but I don't think it was, um, that bad. They're also were still watch parties around the city that yes, when we walked out of Madison's for Garden, I think it was like one 30 in the morning. Yes. The city was just alive and alive. Wow. Could you believe it? It was crazy. I mean, we, I saw a car go by with a giant disco ball on the, on the top. I, I'm the biggest disco ball I've ever seen. Yeah. On top of a car. And that was what 90 minutes, two hours after the game ended. Yeah. And it was crazy. And I also saw, I think that, um, Mamdani, they put up the game, you know, those, um, they're like, those electric billboard things that are on the street that are like, there's like, they'll have ads on them. Oh, yeah. Like when they have the barges that go by with the big, the, I don't know, it's just like a billboard. You know, like, you know, they're, they're these like gray box things on the street. Yes. And what's the, it's the pillars where you can like call for emergency. Yeah. Yeah. I believe that they put the game, they stream to the game, which I feel like also reset the Dolan timeline. Yes. The Dolan and Trump timeline by playing the game. So really was there were a watch parties. You could argue. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Put on by the city. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. And it felt like, um, this was the players also just whether they said it explicitly or not, whether they were even thinking it or not, it felt energetically, like they were saying, everything, everyone who is in a position of power seems to be making this as distracting as possible for us when they have been the ones who have said all along, it's zero, zero after every game, they have clearly wanted to just focus on the basketball. They haven't wanted to get ahead of themselves. Jamel and Brunson even started his press conference last night, talk about having perspective. Yeah. He said that he had met this guy through Make a Wish foundation and he'd FaceTime with him last week. And he said, my thoughts and prayers with him and his family, um, may God rest his soul, got some really bad news about him earlier today. And I almost cried because I was like to, to, to maintain that perspective where this isn't life and death. Yes, this is a huge deal. It means a ton to so many people. But for Brunson to sit down and say, I want to talk before I answer your basketball questions about something that matters to me because this is a person. Yeah. Is like that energy that, you know, for all of the saging the garden, Taylor Swift being there, Fat Joe's chains, all of it, like the real reason they're winning is because they have people in the locker room who are able to do that and keep that perspective. Yeah. Yeah. Also, something that Mike Brown has mentioned in almost every press conference now is talking about how he wanted his team to hit adversity. Mm-hmm. And what's really interesting to me about this is like a healthy workplace is one where people, it's not like a safe space in terms of you don't say difficult things. A healthy workplace is where you are given permission to mess up and fail and try things and experiment and know that the leaders are going to be like, yeah, I got your back. Go for it. Yeah. That's a healthy workplace. I also think it's, um, he has confidence in his players and the players feel confident in themselves to deliver the job. That, you know what I mean? Like I think that at the root of it, it's the trust, but actually, as I'm sitting here, I kind of feel like it's more the confidence that he has that he's like, I know that they'll, they'll do this and they can face adversity and they'll be all right. Yeah, you know, because it does not seem like any of these players or Mike Brown or anyone on the coaching staff from the next has a lot of doubt. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure there are times where they're like, oh my god, we're down 30. This is already going to be able to pull this up, but it does not feel like the doubt is translating on to the court. Like they were able to finish the job. Totally. And it does not seem like that doubt is front and center. It's like they are leading with confidence. Yes. And the humility. What is it? Humility, hunger, and intelligence. Yeah. I mean, you really see that on the court. It's true. You really do. It's true. It's also so cool to have a leader who says like, I actually want you guys to be in difficult positions. Yeah. Because I think a lot of people are scared of that. But if you have someone who's saying to your point, I have so much confidence in you. Yeah. You know, like, let's go through, he said we got to crawl through the mud. Carlin Thinny Towns said that. And I think that there's something that's fascinating to me called the imagery spectrum. Yeah. And there was, I think in like the 1880s, there was a second I phosphorus. Yes. You know what I realized? We've had a couple of episodes without a Charlotte history. Oh, no. Well, you got a date. We haven't had a date in a minute. Cook. Okay. Go. Hold on, hold on. Oh, Charles getting the exact date just typing. She's typing. We haven't gotten a history lesson. We need like a banner that's a history lesson with Charlotte. Okay. Here we go. All right. In the 1880s, there was a British scientist named Francis Galton. And he surveyed people. He asked people about the vividness of their mental imagery. And what he found was that there were some people who can't visualize anything at all. Where if you say think of an apple, when I say that to you, what do you see in your mind? I see an apple. Yeah. Yeah. There's some people who just see a blank slate. Yeah. And who can't see in their own head, which is crazy. Yeah. And they have, there many people who live like that. It's totally normal. And there's a range. Yes. There's a range for how much detail you see. So there's, so when if you can't see anything in your mind, it's called a fantastic, which is an amazing word. It's a great word. Which means you have no visual image imagery. And then the spectrum then goes one schematic. So you've faint outline level images. You know, they're present, but thin. Then you have representative clear, stable, moderately detailed still images. Apparently, this is sort of the average human experience. Cinematic is rich detailed imagery. You can watch scenes unfold. And then simulator is full dynamic simulation. You can construct complete complex scenarios, animate them, shift viewpoints, run them forward, introduce, introduce adversity to them. You basically, it's like you're seeing a movie in your head. Yeah. And hyper fantastic is quote, near perceptual imagery of extraordinary vividness. And while this might seem like just an abstract sort of psychological thing, I think it really directly translates to leadership. Because if you can see something. Yeah. That's where the word belief actually starts to matter. Yeah. Yeah. Like, Jalen Brunson can see them winning, can see them coming back from a 29 point. Yeah. Because if you, I think there are players who can say they believe that they can win. But in practice, they're not actually believing they can win. They may think it's like they're maybe one of the earlier say, like, yeah, I can believe that I can sketch you out on. Yeah. I can see that I can win. But then to actually do it is is taking the definition of belief and putting it into practice and actually doing it. Yeah. And that is a step further that Jalen Brunson and the Knicks clearly all have. And you have to be able to see it to get you have to be able to see it and act, you have to see it and then be able to actually just act on it. Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing. And I think I really, I don't mean this to sound like naval gaze at this point. But when I was reading about this, it occurred to me when, when you and I started this show, we kept saying to each other, A, we had no reason to believe this would work. Because if you look statistically, starting a sports podcast in 2024 was an insane thing to do. There are a lot of them. There are a lot. We're not celebrities. We didn't have, you know, millions of Instagram followers. No, we still don't work in sports. You didn't work in sports. I was like in a job where I declined every day. And yet we would look at each other and we would say, are we delusional? And then because we had these vision, we could see how this could become big. And we would say, yeah, maybe, but also like, no, because we can see it. We can see it. And when you can see it, like that is the thing. And I think it's something you can practice. I think you can practice seeing it. Yes. I think it's something that some people are born with and some people have less of. But I think that if you, if you you practice seeing something, it can become very real. - Yeah, it's a muscle, you gotta work at it. It's not something, I mean, sure, there is there a degree of wacky delusionalists that's just inside of both of our souls that we were born with? - Absolutely. - 100%. - Well, surely, surely, we have this. - I mean, something's a little wrong, but I do think that it is something that you can practice and work at. And I think that these nicks, they are, they have practiced it so much and so frequently that for them to see the score at halftime, they're like, okay, they could see the nicks win on the jumbo tron anyway. - Yes, they could see it. It was like, sure, yeah, we're down by a lot. Other teams maybe would say we're gonna throw in the towel and just go to San Antonio and see if we can reset and call this a wash. But they're like, no, we can win this game. - Yeah. - And they did. And no other teams have ever done it. - No. - No. - And I think it's also, it's something that anybody, like if you're someone who hasn't run a lot in your life, and you say, I'm gonna train for a half marathon. - Yeah. - That kind of means that you can see yourself crossing the finish line after 13.2 miles. - Yes. - And something that Mike Brown said in his pressur two, he was like, he was asked, do these guys have a chip on their shoulder because a lot of them have been overlooked. You've been overlooked, he was fired by Sacramento, even though he was doing a great job. He didn't get a head coaching job at times when he should have. And he was like, well, sure, but everybody has that. - Yeah. - So I only bring up this as an example of something that you and I have just had, - Yeah, yeah. - No one has experienced with where anybody listening, I'm sure there's been something where you've said, well, I can kind of see that actually. - Yeah. - But there's no way I can do it. And then you start thinking about it and you're like, well, what if I gave it a shot? - No, I know. - Or maybe you've thought of doing something, but you couldn't see it. It's like, well, try, try seeing it. - Try seeing it because I think that there are two options that, and this really can apply to anything. There were two options for the next. They could have gone on halftime and said, well, this is a wash. We're sucking. We're playing terribly. They could have had a lot of negative self-talk to themselves or to each other. Or Mike Brown could have been like, what the hell, guys, this is awful. You guys are stinky right now. But I don't think that's what was happening. - Yeah. - And I think they took the other path, which is, but what if this happens? What if all these good things can happen? What if we can come back and win this game and they did? And not again, sound like a TED talk, but there really is power in your words. And power in your words to your teammates, to your co-workers, to yourself. And if you can just shift that perspective slightly and just see the possibility. - Yes. - Look at what the outcome could be. - Yes, truly. Because I feel like this first halftime, we're like, well, we're just gonna win this game, whatever. I mean, maybe they weren't. I don't know, but it looked like that in the second half that they were just kind of like, we're up, it's gonna be fine. And I'm like, I think that lack a days ago approach lots on the game. - Well, our buddy, Jared Weiss said he asked Wembee. He was the first question in the press conference and they said, what happened in the fourth quarter? And we saw him after the press conference and he was like, yeah, I just said, what happened? - Fair question. - Which is also an amazing, if you're an aspiring journalist, that's the question. - Yeah. - Don't get in, you don't have to be cute. If a team blows a 29-point lead, you can just say, what's going on here? - What's going on there? - What's going on here? And Jared did his credit. And Wembee gave a really impressive answer, which he said, greedy-ness. And we weren't the hungriest team. And so also, that's where the spurs, there is still hope for the spurs, even though they're down through one, which is maybe not the most hope, but if they are able to see where they completely fell part, or where their ego's got in the way. - Yeah. - But it really is a wild thing to have to communicate through something very difficult. And you and I have had conversations, like we're a little team here, and we've had a conversation about our mindset, or if there's something where it's like, we feel we're being too negative. We're like, you know what? We're not gonna talk about that thing anymore. - No, we're gonna, we know that this is a reality, but we gotta keep doing this thing here. Like, you have to be pretty explicit about how emotions impact and how the things that you choose to spend your time thinking about, and obviously they're things you can't control, but it's easier if you do it with a group of people, or with someone else that you trust, where it's like, okay, we're all gonna make this decision together that we're gonna focus in this way. And you need a full buy-in. I think that's the thing. And I think the spurs don't have full buy-in. They may be some of them feel the same way. I think when we certainly does, I'm other players I'm sure do, but it does not feel like they have full buy-in, and the next two. Sorry, crazy town. Wow, I just can't believe they've done this, despite everything. It's really special. It's really special. Like, Dolan has tried to screw this up for his own team at every turn. And they've been, and they've been like, we don't really want to be, we'd like to be excluded from a narrative. Yeah. And Taylor Swift was there to help exclude them. Wait, you know, we have, I'm sorry. I, but we need to at least briefly talk about this. Do you know who was sitting behind Taylor Swift? Oh, yes. Scooter Braun. And his girlfriend, Sydney Sweeney. I mean, tell people who Scooter Braun is a music executive who famously was, I think he was working with the company or whatever and bought Taylor Swift's masters as part of this company. He claims he like never talked or something, whatever. He had a weird interview recently. Anyways, he's definitely, I would imagine Taylor Swift public enemy number one. And there he was. She's sitting courts on, he's like five rows behind her. I mean, there's, you could do a whole episode on that. There's some metaphor over there. Right. And her, and yeah, it was just wild. And also she and Kylie Jenner, they seem to have hugged each other. They said they met, they said to each other, that was crazy. Yeah. And she famously Taylor Swift has a few to the Kardashians. So maybe it's also a lesson that like, you can get over stuff, get over stuff and kind of like, well, not to quote Taylor Swift, but to quarter, shake it off. The next shook it off. It was bad vibes. They should probably get some big deal until we got to the point where we were doing Taylor Swift. Never in my wildest dreams. Did I think I had another one, but I lost it. I'd cry my eyes, but I was a little bit Taylor a little bit Taylor. Oh my God. Wow. Well, thank you for coming to our TED talk. Thank you so much for coming to our TED talk. And as always, please rate and review, like and subscribe. It makes a huge huge difference. It really, really does. A lot of people joining the live, but if you want to be notified, subscribe on YouTube. It helps. Is that what happens? I think so. Oh, nice. I'm just saying it now. Please subscribe. I'm like, please, please. Please. You can also answer him at sports gossip. Take talk at sports gossip show. Subscribe to our subsec at sports gossip show dot subsec.com. You can buy merch, uh, link in the description and, um, oh, just shout out. We've some shareholders have come and said hello recently. So thank you for saying hi. Yeah. Shout out. Shout out to the shareholders. Thank you all for listening to us. It's really crazy. It's really amazing. That's great. Thanks for seeing the vision with us. Thanks for being a little delusional alongside us. Um, all right. Well, folks, we'll see what happens on Saturday. We'll be back with you on Tuesday. Yep. And we might be live before them because you never know. You never know anything could happen. Okay. Bye. [MUSIC PLAYING]