The Knicks' Finals Run, and Most Iconic Calls With Mike Breen! Plus, Spurs-Thunder Game 6 Primer.

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Coming up on the Zach Lowe Show, the Knicks are in the finals. This is not a drill. The New York Knicks are in the finals for the first time in 27 years. You already know that. It's old news. The Cavs were swept. Analytically, it could be 2-2. I'm not sure when the analytical game five is, but the actual series is over. And we have a lot of time to reflect on the Knicks' long journeys, multiple journeys. There's been like 10 different iterations of the Knicks in the last 20 years, 25 years. And Mike Breen has been around for all of it. One of the great guys in the sport, one of the great storytellers in the sport. He was, of course, on the East Finals for ESPN. He's going to be on the whole finals for ABC/ESPN. And he's going to tell, he's here to tell tons of stories, reflect on the Knicks, reflect on stuff that's happened in his life. Great conversation. And then the next game of the year is probably going to be tonight. By the time you listen to this, maybe tomorrow, if you listen to it right away. Game six, Spurs-Thunder. Mo Dechille is here to break down game five. What did the Thunder figure out? What did the Spurs miss in terms of opportunities? What's going to happen in game six? Who's going to adjust? What's the counter to the counter? Who's going to win? Are we going to see a game seven? Can we see a game seven? We get into all that coming up on The Zach Lowe Show. The Zach Lowe Show is brought to you by FanDuel. The conference finals are here. Think you know how it'll go down? Take your shot with FanDuel and get closer to the action. FanDuel is the best place to bet the teams, the players, and plays during the NBA postseason. Build the same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip-off. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app now and play your game. 21 or over in presidents-elect states, 18 or over in DC. You can talk your own gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER. Call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. Welcome to The Zach Lowe Show. And to chronicle it all, how many finals is this for you now, Mike? 21, I think. Wow. And the first on national TV with the New York Knicks. How are you doing, sir? Thanks for spending some time with us. First off, love the hat. There you go. And that's the sign of a real fan. The hat is still on despite the difficulties that we are encountering all season long. As a fellow Mets fan, I suffer with you. It's not been fun. I did show my daughter yesterday some footage of Francisco Lindor taking infield practice and she got very excited for his return. So her spirits are still high. Mine are not. I forgot what it was like to be just an angry, burn it to the ground fan, frustrated. And so it's fun to feel that nastiness in my soul, Mike Breen. Well, you know, and I always say this, and I've told this to my kids because they, since they were little, they were Knicks fans and they experienced a lot of rough years. And I always kept saying to them, these type of rough years, when it finally turns, that's what makes it so special. And they're experiencing that now. And even, you know, a couple of years ago that, that run to the national league championship series was so much fun for the Mets, but that's you sign up with that, with your heart to a, to a, a franchise and to a team, and you know, you're going to have heartbreak and you, you know, you're going to have complete jubilation. Yeah. I went through the, the, the Knicks sort of last 25 years yesterday. Uh, on my Knicks make the finals podcast, there were nine straight sub 500 seasons, I think from 2002 to 2010, then the six years like post mellow peak and pre Tibbs were just so utterly depressing and forgettable. It was like the Knicks existed over here and the rest of the NBA was operating that as normal over here. And then Brunson comes and Tibbs comes and Randall is here and the trades happen. And it's just this continuous functional improvement to this moment. And you're there in Cleveland the other night when they complete the sleep sweep, completely obliterate the calves, just like they obliterated the Sixers and obliterated the Hawks in the last three games of that series. And you give this emotional interview with Monica McNutt, who was there covering the game, um, for MSG and just sort of what it, what it means to Knicks fans after all the suffering to finally be back at the pinnacle. And I just, I saw the interview was very emotional, but I wonder like, what are your other memories from that game? I don't, I don't know if there's a conversation with Clyde Frazier from after the game off camera that you'll take with you. I don't know if you even went into the Knicks locker room to sort of see what the mood was in there after the game. If you talked to Brunson, anything like that? Um, well, first off, I did speak to Clyde after I spoke to some of the other players who were there, the former players who were there and the joy that they're having watching this team play the way they're playing, not just the success, but it's how they play the game. Um, that really struck me. Clyde was really emotional after the game. Um, and he's, he's one that, that rarely compares any team to his squad. And he feels there's so many similarities. And I said this to Monica that night, um, I've never heard him compare a player to Willis Reed. He holds Willis in that high regard, the way he revered that man. Uh, and he thinks Jalen Brunson has a lot of similarities in terms of leadership and his approach as Willis Reed. Uh, so that really has struck me. And then afterward in, in talking to some of the current players, it's amazing how, yeah, they're happy, but they're not, there's, there's no way they're satisfied. I mean, they, they really have that mode of, okay, yeah, let's we'll celebrate. We've had each other on the back tonight, but let's get to work and get ready for the next one. Yeah, I think it was, you know, it was almost anticlimactic, um, because of just, how lopsided every series has been since game three of the hog series and how, how lopsided game four of the Cleveland series was that the Cavs just let go of the rope and the Knicks were very happy to pull a, pull them over the cliff or whatever. Um, in my head, psychoanalyzing everything, I'm like, I kind of think it's cool that it's anticlimactic and that there is going to be this long break between the Knicks winning the East and the finals while these other two teams slug it out. Because mentally to me, just as a neutral person, I'm like, it kind of reinforces to the Knicks and their players that yeah. Okay. They did this thing that ended up being like, not that big of a deal. The, the actual big deal is the next thing that's coming. And I do wonder if there's like a mind trick that can happen when you don't get too carried away with winning 12 playoff games. And remember actually it's very clear. The goal is 16 now, right? It's just business. Like let's get this one out of the way. And then we can start thinking about the next. It's just, it's amazing. All three of those games, um, I think three different players. I think it's Josh Hart, Mikkel bridges, and I know it's Jaylen Brunson in the three clinching games did not play a second in the fourth quarter, not a second. And when you think about that, going into the playoffs, if you would have told somebody that there's just, there's just no way. And it's, it's, um, again, it's the way they take care of business. They're so serious. They're so focused. And the other three things on all three games in Atlanta, in Philadelphia and in Cleveland, the amount of Nick fans, thousands, thousands of Nick fans are in that arena. So in some ways it felt like they were, they were clinching at home. It's just, it's an incredible run. Um, and remember going into the playoffs, some people thought Atlanta would beat them. Some people thought Philadelphia beat them. Some people thought with Cleveland and that's fine. Everybody makes, makes predictions, but to not just win those series, but to dominate the way they've dominated. It's historic. It's absolutely historic what they're doing. Yeah. The fans traveling thing is cool. Um, and Nick's fans are obviously like I've, I've said on this podcast all through this playoff run, like this is a, this is a super smart basketball city. It is a basketball city. Basketball is a city game. Nick's fans are very smart. There's also just like a ton of them because New York is a giant place. And so obviously that means more of them will be sprinkled around as expats and other cities. And I have friends who, I mean, friends who have gone to some Nick's playoff games, who has the, has the playoffs have gone on like random, just buddies who are Nick's fans who, who who have said to me, like, it's actually going to be cheaper for us to go to Cleveland or go to San Antonio or go to Oklahoma City and buy a plane ticket and a hotel room. It's actually go to a Knicks game. So I think I wonder how much of that is actually playing into Knicks fans showing up on the road. No, no doubt. But, you know, Zach, I can't tell you how many people have told me, you know, the 1970 and the 73 Knicks. That's why I fell in love with basketball. That's where I became a basketball fan and a Knicks fan for life. This is happening again. There are so many young kids who are now watching this, who are falling in love with the game, who are falling in love with the team because of the way this team is playing. I got back to the hotel after the game the other night and saw three different families, father and three kids, father, wife, two kids that all drove from New York, seven hours, however long it takes, some from New Jersey. And they were you could see by the kids that they will be Knicks fans for the rest of their life. They will be NBA fans for the rest of their life. And so much of it is because of Jay Leno. And Brunson and the way he he plays and the way he carries himself. But it's the whole Knick team and it's the style that they play. It's just such a beautiful style of basketball that they have. They have made so many, so many people to be Knick fans and basketball fans for the rest of their lives. So I'm going to do the dumb thing where I project my own personal experience onto the larger world. But I live in Fairfield County, Connecticut, and at my my daughter is about to leave elementary school. She's gone six years. It's the same school. So I've been walking her to school for six years. And I've obviously like when I see basketball jerseys on kids, you know, my brain just sort of registered like, oh, it's a bam out of bio jersey. I wonder why that guy has a bam out of bio jersey. And when she first started going to this school, number one by far was Curry. Number two was LeBron. Number three was has probably been LaMelo Ball over the course of her six years at school. And now it's like it's Brunson and it's not even close. Like I. On these on these playoff game days, it's mostly boys, unfortunately, but like half the boys will come out wearing Knicks jerseys and 75 percent of those will be Brunson jerseys. But what's also started to happen is or T-shirts. You see now Josh Hart jerseys and OGN and OB jerseys and like jerseys of guys that like those are not those are they're better than role players, but they're not the kind of guys you think like a nine year old kid is going to have an OGN and OB jersey. And those are starting to get sprinkled around the. Playground like you're absolutely right that this team is going to breed a generation of hopefully locally. These kids are now going to be Knicks fans and not like kids process the game today where they're like fans of an individual player more than a team. I think I think you're right that there's just going to be like an old school team fandom going on. Yeah. And that's a great point about the team aspect of it, because, you know, Steph Curry was you go in every arena in the country and if the Warriors are on the road or obviously if they're home, they're going to be on the team. They're home. There's nothing but Curry jerseys throughout. And it's you get them usually like seven or eight years old when you can really make an impression on a young boy or a young girl in terms of where their allegiance is going to go for the rest of their lives. You know, all the all the kids that were born in in like 1988 when the Bulls were winning all the championships. They're all Jordan. They're all Jordan fans because that's when he was at his height. But it was mostly Jordan. But this this Knick team does have they have the. The other personalities and I give a lot of the credit to Brunson because Brunson, as you know, when he gives an interview, when you ask him about himself, he gives the most bland, cliche answers. When you ask him about the success of the team, he'll even give you a bland, cliche answer because he never wants to get ahead of himself. But ask him about one of his teammates and he gives you great insight and gives you great comments about him. And I think that's a big part of it, is that he has shared everything in terms of. The success of the team by always talking about his teammates. Most of the finals that you have done for ESPN ABC were with Jeff Van Gundy and Mark Jackson as your broadcast partners, both of whom have deep, deep ties to the Knicks. I wonder, have you been hearing regularly from them during this playoff run? And particularly once the I mean, Jeff Van Gundy was the coach the last time they were in the finals. Have you been talking to those guys? Yeah, I actually I actually sent Jeff a text today. I still. Saw a video of the time during the ninety nine run when they went to the finals was the first time Madison Square Garden chanted Jeff Van Gundy. And it was everybody it echoed through. It was one of the coolest moments I can remember. And he's another one. Always deflected praise. Always. And there's a look on his face. They show the camera on him when and you could tell it. It meant something to him. Now, he talked afterward. Of course, what he said, that meant so much to my family. But you could tell it meant something to him. So he's still his heart is still in a lot of ways there. And I've seen he thinks they have a legitimate shot to win in the finals coming up. There's no question they have a legitimate shot to win. To me, that question was answered by the end of the second round. They went from long shot punchers chance to even against a healthy Thunder team, a decent chance. And now the Thunder aren't healthy. The Spurs are. I have some guards playing through injuries. I mean, we'll see. We'll see who comes out of that series. But I think there's no question the Knicks can win the NBA title. And I'm very good. I'm going to be very interested to see who's actually favored when it happens. But speaking of Van Gundy and Mark, are there any the Knicks? The Knicks have alums, so many alums at every game. I mean, Steph, Stephon Marbury almost played in one of the games by accident when he ran off the floor, ran out to the floor. Is there an alumni that you haven't seen or hasn't been in the fold that you're kind of hoping? For like, it would be very cool if this person suddenly appeared at the NBA finals as like part of the Knicks alumni group. Well, you would love to see Charles Oakley make a return. That's been such an ongoing and just such an unfortunate situation that happened. So he's one that you think of because he was such a big part of those those 90 Knicks. But it's amazing every year. And they've they've done an amazing job of bringing them back and making them feel welcome. There's not just like five. There's not just like five or six. There's like 20 per game now. And if you watch them on the sidelines, they're so into the game. Patrick Ewing was so overjoyed the other night. And obviously the Clyde Frazier's Bill Bradley's there all the time. It's just cool to see Bernard King, Larry Johnson. They were at Radio City Music Hall. And I think that was very, that was very cool. And there was one shot we put on our telecast. Knicks went on one of those runs and they go up. Like 26. And they had a shot of Bernard King. And you see Bernard King saying, it's over. And it's the second. He gave the Vince Carter. Right. Exactly. So it's a great thing to see. And I give credit to Leon Rose and the organization, William Wesley. They what they've done is they've made those guys feel so welcome coming back. And that's a great thing for an organization. Teams are trying to do it. San Antonio is great like that. The Spurs do that as well. But the amount. It's not just some players. It's a boatload of players that come back here. Here are some players that I would like to see some alumni. I would like to see come back. Both both superlative guys and just random. Like, oh, I remember this guy was on the Knicks. It'd be funny to see him at a game. I want to Phil Jackson appearance at one of these games. Obviously, he was the GM or president during a tumultuous period, but also a member of the 1973 championship team. Pat Riley. Could we get a Pat Riley like, you know, like Olive Branch thrown out? I mean, why not? Right. Joe Kim, Noah, Olive Branch. He's a New Yorker. He'd be brief and not not did not go great here. He was to a couple of games this year. OK. Yeah, he did come to a couple of games and and Bill Jackson and Pat Riley. You know, they both were were such an integral part of some of the finest moments ever. And yes, it didn't end well for Phil when he left as an executive. Obviously, when. When Pat left as well, it didn't end well. But most Knicks fans in those cases, they only remember the good points. And and I think what Riley did was extraordinary in the 90s and Phil Jackson being a part of the only two championships. So I would love to see them come back as well. I want to see Van Gundy, too. I know, you know, Jeff better than I do. He'll I don't want to be a distraction. I don't want to, you know, but I mean, like he was the coach during the last finals. He was the guy the year before who grabbed Alonzo Morning's leg. And just like. I want to see him back in the garden for this. You know, and he was so beloved because he was the underdog, the guy that, OK, Don Nelson's fired. We'll stick the assistant Jeff Van Gundy in. And Jeff would be the first one to tell you he he would have not returned if Alan Houston doesn't hit that shot in game five in Miami and instead winds up being one of the great coaches in Nick history. And I think one of the great coaches now I know he's up for a couple of jobs. Portland and Orlando would be out of their minds not to. Hire him because you hire Jeff Van Gundy. I don't know what your team ceiling is, but you will reach it if he's your head coach. And I think it's it's a disgrace that he hasn't been a head coach over the past couple of years because he he has so much to offer. And it'd be I think it'd be a wonderful thing. Now, Tibbs is too recent and there's too much too many hard feelings there, I think. But, you know, the other I always like when teams that get to the next level celebrate the guys who brought them up. up to the first level that they had to get to. Wouldn't it be cool if Julius Randall And Dante DiVincenzo, the castaway Nova Knicks, showed up at the finals. I think that would be cool, too. Why not? It's New York. Everybody comes through New York. And if you put them on the big screen, they'd get a huge ovation. And Tibbs and Julius Randle, this, you know, Leon Rossi takes over a franchise that was in disarray, that was basically relevant outside of New York to the rest of the NBA. Irrelevant, that is. And Tibbs and Julius Randle, they started the turnaround. Tibbs and what he brought, the culture, what he brought. And Julius was the star player that first year. And I think most Knicks fans remember that. And those guys should deserve, they should get praise if they return. I don't think they're going to be. Hopefully, DiVincenzo's surgery is going well. You know, you mentioned about Jeff, too. Like, when Jeff was an assistant coach all those years, that's when I first started working as a Knicks broadcaster. And I was trying to learn the NBA. I learned more from that man about the NBA. Because assistant coaches have more time to help with the broadcasters. And he just, he was so giving in terms of the information and teaching me about NBA basketball. And then when he became head coach, he didn't change. He never changed. And his post-game press conferences on the MSG network, they were like must-see TV. Because you could never, you never know what was going to come out of his mouth. Whether it was a win or whether it was a loss, it was compelling. And I also remember, too, he would, before the games, I'd like to pop into his office just to get a couple of thoughts on the game. And he always had a ball, and he was bouncing a ball off the wall. And just willing to share everything that he knew about the game. Just a great basketball mind. Yeah, you know, people talk about all these guys are always thinking X's and O's and always thinking basketball. And sometimes it's an exaggeration, which I think it's not. And I'm sure you've read Chris Herring's book about the 1990s Knicks. You're quoted in it many times. There's a, off the top of my head, I may be mistelling this a little bit, but I don't think I am. There's a story of Van Gundy driving home from a game and being so immersed in whatever happened in the game, whatever adjustments he had to make going forward, that he literally just drove into his own garage door because he wasn't paying attention to what he was doing. Is there a, is there a modern day, like current New York celebrity row guy or woman? Is there a modern day, like current New York celebrity row guy or woman? That you have gotten to know on a more than token basis. Are you like, are you secretly friends with Timothee Chalamet now? Are you, are you a Stiller guy? Tracy Morgan, Susie Essman, who is your best celebrity fan friend? Well, Tracy sits right next to our table. So he's been, he's been such a joy. Timothee Chalamet has been going, going for years. And I had to get him to stop calling me Mr. Green because he's, he's such a polite young man. Ben Stiller is, he is as crazed. He's the Nick fan is anybody who sits up in the 400 section. And those are the fans I love. Steve Schrepper is another one. Steve Schrepper is just, he's just so into it. Michael J. Fox, who is, is one of my heroes because of what he's done for Parkinson's. Also just like such a real caring fan. Like they really care. They live and die with the Knicks. So there's a lot of them as well. Here's another one. Richard Schiff is a big Nick fan. I've become friendly with Richard as well. The, uh, he's, uh, he's a terrific actor. He was West, West, he's West wing, the bearded guy, that guy. He played Toby in the West wing. Uh, but there's, I mean, there's so many of them there that they're not just showing up to be seen. They're showing up and they, from start to finish, uh, don't stop yelling. It's, it's really cool to see. Um, was there any part of you as the Knicks went on to, uh, a sweep of blowouts that was a little jealous that you weren't calling the Western conference finals? And do you do things like imagine the volume and whether it would be a single or double bang when you see a shot like Victor, when Benyama shot in game one of that series? Well, to answer the first question, no, because I, I, I, this Nick team is so enjoyable to watch, uh, that I was, I was glad it worked out. Um, but this year we got the Eastern conference finals because last year we didn't. And I'm going to tell you a story, uh, from last year. So the Knicks make the Eastern conference finals first time in 25 years. And we don't have the East, which was disappointing. We had the West last year. It would have been nice. So Kevin Harlan calls me up after the Knicks clinch to go in the conference finals. And he says, listen, you deserve to call the conference finals. It's the first time in 25 years. You deserve it. This is what I want to do. You call ESPN. I've already TNT people. They would love to have you call. Let's switch. We'll do, I'll do the ESPN Western conference finals. You do. You do the East. So you can do the next, you deserve to do the next. And he says, I know TNT would want to have you. And if ESPN doesn't want to have me and they want to put in Dave Pash or Mark Jones, I'm fine with that. Now you tell me anybody else who would make that offer. So I said to him, oh, I don't know if we can do that, Kevin. No, we can, we can. He says, think about it, sleep on it. Next day, he calls back again. Let's do this. You deserve to do this. You should be doing the Knicks in the conference final and ultimately determined it wasn't really fair to each of our employees not to do it. But I'm to this day, I'm so overwhelmed by Kevin making that offer. And it wasn't just some gratuitous offer. He really wanted to do it. He was pushing me to do it. And that's something I'll never forget. And fortunately this year it worked out where they're back in the conference finals. So I get to call, call games for them in the conference finals. And now obviously the finals. So you're in Oklahoma city, I guess, when Halliburton hits the shot that goes to the ceiling and drops through the net and his first thought of, Oh my God, it's a three, the game's over. Then it's a two. Who are you watching that game with? What are your memories of that game? Uh, watching it in my hotel room in trying to think of which, which city I was in. I think it was Minnesota. Okay. Maybe it was Minnesota. I had Western conference finals somewhere. Right. Um, but I was by myself in the hotel. Usually I like to, I take notes while I'm watching the game and you know, it's the rollercoaster ride. I'm thinking here's one of the things I thought. That, and I would have done this shot. I would have on the air been going wild. What a shot. And how many Nick fans would have been so mad and so mad at me for screaming Halliburton does it. He does the clutch because he was on that incredible clutch role, uh, throughout that entire post season. So that's one of the things I thought about, uh, that Nick fans may have never forgiven me if I would have been screaming for, for Halliburton on that one. So you didn't, you didn't throw the remote control at the wall or anything like I, like I did when I was a kid, when John Franco would blow. Saves and my parents would be like, you can't keep chipping the wall at our house with their own control. Just cause John Franco drives you crazy. Um, uh, so, so speaking of that topic, now that the Knicks are in the finals, you're going to call the finals. There's this all this, and you've already answered questions about this in interviews in the last 48 hours, but Oh, Mike green, he's rooting for the Knicks. How is he going to remain on bias? And I'm like, wait, he's called deep Knicks playoff games before. And actually went back and watched, um, your call. Uh, I watched a whole 10 minute. YouTube of some of your most famous calls. And one of the calls on there is Andrew Nem hards. Go ahead. Three in game three of the second round, two years ago. And you're going insane for that call with a legitimate, like joy in your voice. That would people, people who didn't know, it'd be like, is he just rooting for the Pacers or is he just an unbiased fan who loves basketball, Marv Albert called the finals the last time the Knicks were in the finals and he had been the voice of the Knicks for a long time. So it's not like this is new. Do we do you even think about this when you're calling the game? Is it even in your head or is it just a totally separate, like Mike Breen is over here somewhere else? No, you, you, you, you make sure you want to focus on being, um, straight down the middle on it. And, and because I watched Marv growing up and worked for NBC during those nineties and he called so many big Nick games on the playoffs against Chicago against Indiana, um, you know, he showed me and he showed a lot of people how to do it. And, you know, I, I learned from Marv in terms of that. And I did some of those, I remember calling a Reggie, uh, three pointer to win a playoff game at the garden and screaming my full head off. That's the job. And you have to do it that way. And the other thing too, is I love basketball so much. I've, I've been in love with basketball since I was seven or eight years old. So when I see a great play, I get excited, whether it's a Nick, whether it's a Celtic, whether it's a warrior, it doesn't matter. And I know that no. You can't win on that. People are always going to think that, but they think that Zach, every year when the Knicks aren't in the finals, you know, when it's the warriors and the Celtics, the Celtic fans think I'm rooting for the warriors, the warriors fans think I'm rooting for the Celtics. I mean, I go crazy for Steph Curry because I I'm watching greatness. And when he does something spectacular, that's the way you have to respond. So, um, I hope people don't think so, but they will. And that's okay. Because one of the great things about the playoffs is how much the fans. Care. We talked about the Nick fans, let's fans all across the country. They care so much about the team that they lose objectivity. If you say anything negative about their player or say anything positive about the opponent, they think you're rooting for the other team. So it's part of the business. I love that, that the fans are that passionate and, uh, I'll, I'll keep doing the way I've been doing it in the past. And hopefully people will, will be able to say, yup, he he's been fair and unbiased. This episode is brought to you by Panda express. telling someone you love them It isn't always easy, but showing them through food, sometimes that's better than words, especially when that food's wok-cooked at Panda Express, a Joe House favorite. Pick from delicious classics like orange chicken, honey walnut shrimp, kung pao chicken, and black pepper sirloin steak. Perfect for when you're watching the team you love or eating with the person you love. Have you eaten yet? Click or tap the banner to order or visit a Panda Express near you. Evening. Buyer's remorse. Buy a new car? I'll be moving in. Let's get started. Sorry, I think there's been a mistake. I bought it from Carvana. You what? Yeah, great price. I even have seven days to love it or return it. So there's no. No, no buyer's remorse. More like buyer's rejoice. I guess I'll let myself out. Congratulations. I mean it. Buyer's rejoice. Buy your car today on Carvana. Limitations and exclusions may apply. See our seven-day return policy at Carvana.com. We'll be right back after this. So you were doing radio for a lot of the 90s when the Knicks were really good, including in the finals. You've talked about calling the OJ game during the finals. So does that mean there are like radio Mike Breen calls of John Starks dunk in 1993 of John Starks, like maybe somewhat blocked three at the end of game six that could have won the championship of the Knicks? You're at those games calling them on radio, right? Yeah. Did the Starks dunk? Did the Charles Smith. Missed it. Missed it. Missed it. I wasn't going to bring that one up. But the best thing that I. The most proud of in radio in terms of what I did, there's. I don't know how much time was left. It wasn't the 8.9 seconds, but it was under a minute to go. And the Knicks fans are starting to leave the garden. And I remember saying on the air, where are they going? Don't they know Reggie Miller's in the building? And then he has that, you know, they. Unbelievable finish, the crushing loss to the Pacers that day. And I was always so proud of that, that I forecasted that. Unfortunately, I lost. I saved a lot of those playoff takes, but I lost them all in the fire. So they are. Oh, my God. So I wish I had some of them to go back to. But those were great days. I worked with Clyde and I worked with John Andres, too. The late John Andres, who was a magnificent analyst and a wonderful man. So I have great, great. Can you conjure the Starks dunk, which is game two of the 1993 Eastern Conference Finals, the Knicks go up 2-0. His dunk, I think, puts the Knicks up by five, maybe, late in that game and kind of clinches it. It's the lefty, basically, iconic Knicks. Can you conjure the image? Can you remember what you said? I don't remember specifically what I said, but I remember losing it and almost thinking, OK, did I go over the top on the call, like, just screaming, because it was so explosive. It just came out of nowhere. You knew he was driving. He went to the basket. You knew he was athletic. But to do that in that game, and you know everybody in the building, and myself included, felt this is the year. This is the year that they're going to win it all again. And then, obviously, it turned. In 99, you were doing some TV, some WNBA TV. Like, where are you for the Larry Johnson four-point play against Indiana in the Conference Finals? Are you calling that for radio, TV? Where are you for that shot? No, that was the year that. Yeah. Marv came back. Right. And his first year back, he did the radio, and I was still the TV voice. And because it was now in the Conference Finals, Regionals didn't do it then. We did the first two rounds, I think, then, but not the Conference Finals. So I had a baseline seat along press row, and I was right under the basket when he hit that shot. Under the basket that it went in, or the other end of the. Yeah, under the basket that it went in. Wow. I got to go back and see if I can find you. I rewatched it a few times, and I couldn't find you, but I wasn't looking there. Yeah, no, that's right. That's where I was. And everybody says, and they might be correct, that as loud as the building can ever be, that amazing shot that NBC had in that that shows the crowd erupt, I think that builds into that, because there's been a lot of moments where you just can't hear yourself. But that was special. The thing I always remember about that was Chris Childs running over to Johnson right away to remind him, you still got a free throw to shoot here, pal. That was a cool moment. 94 finals, Rockets, Knicks. You're calling those games. I don't want you to tell the OJ story again, because you've told it a million times of the fans behind you yelling at you not to switch off the monitor that was showing the Bronco. Can you picture your angle when Starks gets that shot off at the end of game six that Olajuwon gets a fingertip on? And Ewing has always said, I was rolling right near the foul line. I was open. John could have passed me the ball. I had a gimme to tie the game. Starks has always said there was so few. There was like two seconds left. I didn't know if it was going to be enough time to pass it to him. Can you can you in your mind's eye? Can you see that? Do you remember your call of that moment? Because when that shot, I remember I was 16 years old. No. Yeah, 16 years old. And I remember when he rose up for that shot, there was a moment where like people didn't shoot, obviously nearly as many threes then as they do now. And so there was a moment where my, my brain had to register, oh, they're going for the win. This could win the actual NBA championship. You just didn't expect them to shoot a three. Well, that could have been a career ending call for me. So we're on the radio and we're on courtside right next to the Nick bench. The shot was down the other end on the near side. So when I, I can't see down the left corner because, you know, people are standing and it's all the way down. So when he takes the shot, I don't know if he's behind the three point line or not. So when the shot goes up, I don't know if it's a two pointer or a three pointer. Now, usually on stuff like that, play by play, voices will tell you if you can't see if he's behind the line, you look at the reps, you check out the reps, and they have that hand signal that it's a three point attempt. But all three of the reps were blocked. I couldn't see them if they had the hand up. So the shot is up. And if it goes in, it's either a tie game overtime or the Knicks win the championship. So if it's a three pointer, it goes in. I'm not going to, I don't know if it's to win the championship. And who knows how my call would have been if it went in and Elijah, because he got a piece of it, which you couldn't tell again from our location. So I could have blown the biggest radio call in Knicks history. That if that shot goes into the championship, I probably would have looked up at the scoreboard. And like yelled, it's good six or seven times until they put up the score, whether they want or not. But I've always told that, that I could have blown the biggest call of my career because I, I couldn't tell if he was behind the three point line or not. These are human moments, right? Like I had Harlan on last week and he was talking about the Halliburton shot and everyone thought almost everyone thought it was the three right away. And he didn't say he just, there was just noise and he kind of waited until they knew it might not be a three. You in this same, basically the same game a year later have the Sam Merrill shot, which I've called the unbang. And you and I weren't texting about this the next day. And I told you just unprompted. And I didn't even realize you were going on Levitard later in the day to talk about it. I said, I don't think that's a mistake. And I know that a lot of people in your position are perfectionists. They want to get everything right. That sounded so organic and the bank know that it was, I thought it was like the perfect, the human organic call of the game. It was a very smooth transition from a proto bang to a no. And I, and I, and you seem to like appreciate me reaching out. I'm like, I hope he's not beating himself up over that. Cause I thought it was like the absolute, it was exactly what I wanted the announcer in the moment to be saying and reacting to a shot that was half literally halfway down and out. But so I hope you have no regrets over the unbang. No, I mean, clearly you want to have it a clean call, but the, the game is not played perfect. And I certainly never broadcast it perfectly. And that's the way it was. I mean, it, it, we had a great angle on it and it looked like, and when they did the zoom in that half the ball was under the top of the cylinder, it just, it's, it was crazy. And I mean, that stuff happens and you have to react quickly to it. So, and it's like the, the Shamit three pointer that was in the game, one situation, the other one, the one, it, it's bounces up. The thing I remember for that, I can hear the crowd go, Oh, and then it goes through and it explodes. So those, those things happen. And, you know, after doing all these years, there's plenty of calls that, that, you know, you want to nail cleanly and that don't happen, but you have to admit the mistake and, and, and say what happens next. It's all part of the business, but I really, I, I really appreciated that, that text. Little did we know that Landry Shamit was just not going to miss any more shots for the rest, for the rest of the series. Um, let's talk quickly about some of your other fun calls. Cause I haven't had you on in quite a while. We've, we've talked about the double bang, the first double bang, the Curry shot from a million feet away in Oklahoma city. So I rewatched that today. And, um, you, you, you said you wanted, you want every call to be as, as clean as possible. And that's become one of your most famous calls, but it's it watching it again today. Um, you, you start talking, you say they have a timeout, they're not going to use it. And then you start speaking. beating up because you realize he's actually going to shoot. So you're like, they have a timeout they're not going to use it curry from way down like you had to catch up to get to the bang on time do you remember in your head like thinking i'm talking about a timeout and he's actually in the shooting motion and it comes off perfectly but you had to actually accelerate and catch up to steph curry's range yeah it was a rushed call there's no question because when he crossed he had enough i thought he had enough time to take a couple more dribbles so i did not expect it but then you know you watch him enough you can see where okay he's he's got the gatherings ready to go so i had to go on it and that was one of those where i call it it's a it's a cumulative call because it was all that led up to that moment the season that the warriors were having the season that he was having he was playing on a level that very few have ever played and then that particular game where it looks all right this great run is going to at least be temporarily stopped he gets hurt has to leave the game they're down 14 uh it all led up to wow this this magic is still happening with this player and with this team and that's when i lost my mind i never like i never said oh i'm gonna do bang they say bang twice the double bang and it just came out i remember the first time i heard it back i i really thought oh my goodness i'm such a i sound like such a screaming fool there but that was that was the basketball fan coming out of me and that's what i've always tried to do in calls like i said earlier i love the game so much when i see something special um that's me reacting as a fan trying to do it in a professional way but sometimes the fan part seeps in and i think that's a good thing i do too and one one of the the this is going to be a deep cut for nix fans but i have to ask you about this um you're so professional and you're so nice all the time that i actually love when something about a game or a player annoys you enough that you begin to editorialize a little bit in a negative way not negative but you just you know you could you're the critical basketball fan and you comes out because something is happening that is just not the way you think basketball should be played or mistakes are being made or whatever and so this is my long-winded way of asking you have you spoken to jordan clarkson about the jordan clarkson game since he was acquired by the knicks and for people who don't know he was i think it was last season he was on utah and he had a game at msg where he just came into that game and was like i'm just chucking it up like i'm not gonna pass i'm just gonna take one horrible shot i'm gonna have a jordan clarkson game and it was one of the only times i could remember you your version of disgust was like by the fifth one you're like well jordan clarkson he's not passing well jordan clarkson he's he's taking some he's taking some toughies tonight has he have you talked to him about this because i i knowing him a little bit he's come on my podcast before i think you would actually think it's funny he was he was a good guy he was a good guy he was a good guy he brought it up uh during the season when the knicks were out on the west coast a bunch of us all went to napa valley uh and on the on the ride he he brought it up like man he goes what were you what were you doing that night so i told him the whole thing and he he laughed the whole thing about it um i didn't know him very well prior to obviously respected his his uh scoring prowess and stuff but that was one game that as you said they were out of it he just he just wanted to come throw and uh we shared a we shared a good laugh about it and but he was the one that brought it up i was gonna bring it up to him but he brought up first and and he he could have been nicer about it you know it's interesting you bring that up one of one of the great lessons i heard um was from snapper jones snapper jones was one of the the best people i've ever met and he used to give me help when i first started nbc i do some games with snapper i did a lot of games with snapper and bill uh bill walton and there was one game where jr smith was the best player in the league and he was the best and he was really struggling and it looked like he didn't care was taking bad shots and i was critical like that like that night with uh with jordan clarkson and the next day snapper called me and he says hey listen i listened to you last night he said um everything you said about jr smith last night you were right on the money i'm thinking okay great he goes but it sounded personal he was a great great uh piece of advice that he gave me he used to do stuff like that he'd always give you things to think about and it was you know it's amazing what you can learn from somebody who's watching at home and snapper was great like that another story if you have time i don't of course um so one time this is during the the dark years and i'm walking out after the garden they got hammered again and there's a gentleman i'm gonna say he's about 35 dressed in a suit probably came from wall street by the way and he comes up he says hey um uh mike can i ask you a question so sure he goes why do you hate the knicks and i said to him hate the knicks i said what are you talking about he says listen i i listen i come to some games but i listen all the time and you're just killing them i said well they're like 17 and 50 do you want me to do you want me to say they're playing well and he goes no no no i don't mean that he said but you don't have to hit me over the head with it every possession because i'm still watching i know they're bad but i want to watch the rookie in here all right does this rookie have any chance to be any good or or is this guy could he be a piece when we eventually get to be good and it was a great lesson from just some guy who's a huge fan who was a listener that okay i'm broadcasting games of a bad team to an audience who's still watching and they're watching for a reason again because they care so much about the team and it showed me okay yeah you have to be critical and you have to say when they're playing bad but you also have to think about who the audience that's that's watching the game so it's again it's amazing how people are watching can give you a good thought that that tell you that all right maybe you're doing something right maybe you're doing something not so right well mike that's very relevant for me today watching the new york mets with my daughter because i am of two minds i want the sny broadcasters gary keith and ron who are fantastic to not sugarcoat what a disaster this season is and how bad the offense that never scores any runs are is and they don't sugarcoat it they've been they've been like pretty open about this is a crushing disappointment yet another like you can't win when you score no runs that's a scientific fact about baseball if you score zero runs you're going to lose the baseball game but also i do want as a fan like tell me a little bit about aj ewing and oh look look he's taking a really high percentage of pitches out of the strike zone that's great and i want to be i want to be excited carson benj and jonathan comes out of the bullpen so there is a balance that you you can do both you can acknowledge it doesn't have to be propaganda you can acknowledge that the team is having a horrible disappointing season and also just you know feed me some tidbits of like here's a nice story that might be important next year when the team hopefully isn't terrible yeah no it's it's again for when you're calling a game on television you always have to think about who's watching who's and those two pieces of advice served me well last question and i'll let you go um you have some time now to think about this finals and the game first two games will be either in oklahoma city or san antonio um are you approaching it any differently than any other nba finals and have you let yourself imagine what the garden is going to be like and what it would be like if they actually win um no approach it the same way if you're going to be in the garden you're going to and trying to find some stuff and we're both teams and you know depending on who the opponent is is there any historical significance in terms of personnel teams all that kind of stuff that that might have a cool narrative in the in this particular series um in terms of the the imagine what the garden will be like i think i have a pretty good feel of what it'd be like but i think this one's going to hit differently because you know so much now is is is different because of social media fans are a lot more aware of so many different things that go on so the passion might even be at a higher level um and in terms of if they ever won a championship uh the city would just explode uh it's it's such a um a wonderful fan base for a couple of reasons number one it is a basketball town uh they've always loved basketball as much as any sport and number two because of what the fans have gone through uh would be to to to live through all the dark years and still stay loyal and still care when they're you know been out of playoff contention for three months and they're still with two minutes to go in an april game and a two-point game there you make it feel like it's game seven of the finals so um that's what i think about how deserving and through this whole runs act how deserving the fan base is to have have a moments like this so it would be incredible um but it's going to be very difficult because both these teams present so many problems it's going to be an awesome series and mike green will be there to to chronicle it all with richard jefferson and tim legler uh my old friends and colleagues mike it's it's wonderful to see you thanks for your time i will see you at the finals somewhere either in new york or oklahoma city or san antonio i look forward to saying hi maybe the mets will win a game between now and then mike green the hall of famer the legend thank you sir all right zach i'm a big fan always fun to talk to you this episode is brought to you by born in roma fragrances by valentino beauty the iconic fragrance duo. Donna, born in Roma, eau de parfum. is a feminine fragrance featuring juicy blackcurrant, central jasmine, woody cashmere, and warm vanilla. Its masculine counterpart, Womo Born in Roma Eau de Toilette, has notes of fresh violet leaf, aromatic sage, green vetiver, spicy ginger, and mineral salt. Shop at Macy's.com. When the sun goes down, the appetizers come out. Yeah, you heard that right. Late night half-price appetizers are here at Applebee's. Saucy, sweet, and spicy boneless wings. Crispy, cheesy mozzarella sticks. Creamy spinach and artichoke dip. Your favorite apps, half-price, available every single night because why should appetizers have curfews? Tap the banner to learn more. Dining only for a limited time at participating locations. Restrictions apply. Copyright 2026 Applebee's Restaurant, LLC. All right, enough Knicks hype. We have a game tonight slash tomorrow, depending on when you listen to this. The game. Game of the year, and every game in this series will be the game of the year until it's over, either tonight or in game seven. Thunder Spurs coming off a game five Thunder win when their offense got off a little bit for the whole game. Shea got off in the second half after a shaky first half. And yet Moe Dekiel, despite Victor Uemba-Yama having a really highly scrutinized 4-of-15 game that I didn't think was quite, didn't feel quite as bad as being scrutinized at, but was not great, was not as aggressive as he needed to be in the first half. Was right there for the Spurs at the beginning of the fourth quarter in the minutes that they have to win when Victor's on the floor and Shea's off the floor. And boy, did they have chances. Julian Champagny missed a wide-open three. There was the fast break where Victor wasn't ready for the hit-ahead pass. Victor missed a wide-open three. They had Vassell miss a layup that would have cut it to eight, and then McCain came down at the other end and made it, made a three that made it 13, and something shivered down Daryl Morey's, spine somewhere. It was right there, and then it wasn't right there. And I'm just going to, I'm speaking this into the world now, Mo. We haven't had a classic since game one. Like, the games have been kind of competitive and close-ish, but usually one team's been holding the other at arm's length. That was the Thunder in game five. I want a classic in game six. Young, precocious, who needs experience? Spurs fighting for their playoff lives at home against a banged-up Thunder team. Can we speak a classic into existence in game six? I think it's our responsibility. To do that. But I think we're due for one as well, right? Like, I think it's coming in the ether a little bit of everything that we're getting, that we're heading towards a classic moment because the Spurs back are up against the wall now. Like, they have nothing, they have to throw everything on the court and go all out to make sure they force a game seven. So, hopefully we get lucky, Zach, and hopefully we, on this podcast, speak it into existence, and then we could, you know, state claim that we did this. You know why? Another reason I'd like to have a classic close game down to the wire is so Mason Plumlee and Bismack Biambo can't come in the game and start decking people just left and right after Wemby whispers in there. I don't know what Wemby said. I'm not saying anything. I'm not saying anything, but, like, they came in, they had a mission, they executed their mission. Their mission was Jared McCain, and he was on the ground a lot. I don't want to see any more of that. Let's have a close game. Victor, 4 of 15, did get 12 free throws, 0 of 5 on threes. Um, and then ducked the media after the game was issued a warning, because I guess, I guess he's not allowed to be fined for anything, even elbowing Nas Reed in the face and almost decapitating him. Fine, whatever. Just call it what it is. Um, what did you think of, of, uh, his performance in game five and what needs to change for the Spurs to keep their season alive? I think just overall, I found his performance to be kind of weird in the way of worse. The biggest thing that stood out to me, especially early in the game, is he wasn't contesting shots as eagerly as he had been through the course of the series. Like, you know, look, he finished the game with three blocks. He was contesting stuff, but there were opportunities where I thought like, oh, this guy's driving. Wemby's going to give a contest right there and make it a tough shot. And he just showed up and maybe he got there a little bit late or whatnot, but no contest at all. And then it was an opportunity there. I think Hartenstein had a layup and then there was just stuff where there was like disorganization defensively. And I don't know, how much of that I'm going to put on Wemby or put on the whole team or put on the coaching staff in terms of their message of what they want to do defensively. But early in the game, Shea comes off a pick and roll. Hartenstein rolls to the rim. Fox is on Shea. He's actually in pretty good position, but Wemby Shea's over, but never makes it all the way to Shea. Like kind of stops at the block in case Shea's coming into the paint, but he leaves Hartenstein and nobody pulls in and that gives up a wide open dunk or layup. But for Hartenstein, and it was just small things like that where I wasn't sure, almost felt like Wemby was unsure what to do defensively where I'm so used to seeing like anybody drive by the rim, you're going to have to get it off over an eight foot dude, right? Like I think it's along those lines and that just didn't seem to be there in that aggression. And then, you know, on top of that, him only having just six rebounds was kind of a flashpoint for me where it's like, okay, like I know you're contesting shots as well, but we're, we're, we're used to you getting 10, 11, 12 rebounds a game on top of that. Let's go big picture because I do like that you started on defense because all the focus has been on why didn't he get into the paint more on offense? Why is he drifting? Why is he shooting jumpers? And the answers to that question have at least something to do with how the Thunder had been guarding him since game one, when they basically scrapped the idea of having smaller guys guard him. Because the bottom line is like for all the scrutiny on the offense, they gave up 127 points. Some of that is that the Thunder role players hit their threes. Caruso had another, like where is this all season long? I guess you don't need it, but here it comes in the playoffs and McCain had a pretty loud. So there was a little bit of time in the game where I was like, there's a little too much Jared McCain going on right now. I could use a little, I could use like a hairless Jared McCain. You just got here, man. Like I know you're starting like unbelievable that he's starting, but I do think just zooming way out. He definitely Victor was, came out of the locker room after halftime with much more intent to get, to the basket. You could see that and how hard he rolled to the rim. And when he rolls to the rim, good things happen. You could see that in just when he would get the ball at the Dirk spot, he was just trying his best to burrow as far as he could and then spin move and he pivoted. He had a smitty at one point and pivoted to the rim and he missed all those like sort of leaning bankers that are somewhere between floaters and layups for him. He tried the T-Mac again, throw it off the backboard to himself again and he just missed them all. But he clearly, he came out of the locker room knowing just like he had after I can't remember which game did he say? You know, I just, I think it was one of the Minnesota game, game one of the Minnesota series where he said I didn't, I didn't play the game correctly, basically. Clearly knowing like I didn't go with enough force north-south to the basket and then he did. And I think people are just like we're all very picky with these players and we want them to play these perfect, perfectly calibrated games all the time. I think it's just exhausting to play. I think there's like a big fatigue factor that comes into play here where it's just hard to play with north-south ferocity on offense every single possession all the time, every game, start to finish and do what he does defensively. And that's what I, that's what the halftime change said to me was, all right, look, man, I'm not, it's, I don't feel like, maybe I don't feel like, you know, completely, you know, fresh and whatever, but I got to give it everything I had. Like this is, playing the way everybody wants him to play every minute and the way that he's most effective playing every minute is really, really exhausting. Well, I mean, being a big man's exhausting in general, right? Like we also know that they're, they're refereed differently than guards in terms of what's a foul and what's not. And I'm not trying to say anything about the, uh, when we should have gotten more calls or anything like that, or I thought he was officiated pretty well in this game. I think ultimately though, it's just, you got to bang bodies. All your catches are tough in the playoffs. All your catches, everything at the Dirk spot when he's trying to catch it, he has Hartenstein leaning on him. He has a J William, Jalen Williams leaning on him. He's got all sorts of guys on top of him. And that's just sort of wears you down and tires you out. And is it a bit exhausting in all of that? But that's also the playoffs. Like that's kind of like, that's, that's what it's supposed to be, right? Like if it was easy, the Kings would, well, no, not the Kings, but like, you know, so another, you know, Charlotte would make it. You could give the Kings a six player and they're not in the Western Conference finals. They might not be in the playoffs, but like, I think the, the, the challenge though is like, this is where he's got to figure out he's experiencing this. And I think we've seen flashes through the course of the season or the course of the playoffs where it's the youth of the Spurs have shown up at times. And I felt like that was this in this game to some degree. And some of it was also, I just think the Thunder had a great game plan. Like we're going to be physical on him. We're going to make sure he feels us and be on top of him in that regard. We don't care that he's going to go to the free throw line 12 times. We're going to wear him down. And they kind of did in this game. And I think you started to see that. And as he wears down, he drifts further and further away from the paint, which I don't blame him. Like it's hard and it's physical and it's tough in that regard. But like, he's got to find a way to get back into the paint. And I think that's got to be stuff that, you know, I think Mitch Johnson has got to do a better job putting him in spots. I think they got to find different ways to get him looks. and it, and closer into that area so that he's not drifting around the three-point line. Yeah, and there are ways to do that. I mean, I'm always astonished that they don't even just set, like, cross screens for him to cut across the paint into a deep post-up. I thought they kind of went away from the corner pin-down plays that he and Vassell are so good at that he's been increasingly, like, trying to just cut right across into the paint. And the Thunder have been bumping him like hell on those plays, and the Spurs know that. And on the back end of those bumps, sometimes the three-point shooter, the guy who screens for him, pops open. So that's another reason I'd go back to that. But also, like, rolling to the rim is super hard work. Obviously, he's amazing at it. He's giant, and they throw it up to him, and he dunks it in or taps it in or gets his own rebound, and we saw more of that in the second half. But you also need to do that in tandem with your guards. And Fox has not been quite the same. He was 4-15 also since the ankle injury. Harper has been, like, a single-digit, sort of floating around a little bit, like, kind of non-entity for a lot of the last two games since he had his injury. And so the timing on those plays hasn't been as easy, and the Thunder clearly made a decision in Game 4 and even more so in Game 5. We're going to get under every Steph Castle screen as best we can. We're going to lose some of those battles because the Spurs are really good at making it hard to get under or setting screens lower and lower. But it's a partnership, and the synergy between the guards and Wemby wasn't always there. That said, their offense is at its best when he is rolling to the rim like a dynamic threat that just sucks everybody else into his orbit and opens up opportunities for everybody. And he's so tall that he's just going to roll into 20 points by doing that, and I think they just got to do more. Yeah, and I think they're leaving something on the table every time they go— I think they're leaving something on the table every time they go under a screen successfully. It needs to be an automatic rescreen and get that lower opportunity there because once they go under, they're giving you real estate in that area, and that's the opportunity to just immediately flip, set the rescreen, come right back off, and then you're closer, and now it's harder. The other thing that I found was really problematic when I rewatched the game this morning was just the spacing seemed so off for the Spurs in the sense that there was a lot of cutting with that. There was a play—like, you know, we talked about the start of the fourth quarter. There was a stretch in that second quarter where they cut the lead. You know, it's 44-45. It looks like they're about to make this more of a game. The Thunder go on a run, but somewhere in that run, Castle tries to thread the needle to Harper along the baseline. It's at the same time Kelton Johnson is cutting from above the break three area, and that allowed Dort to get in there and get a deflection. I remember that. Harper gets it. It rushes a shot, misses it, but boom, it's a scramble play. The Thunder are running in early offense and get Dort a clean three, and he knocks it down. It's like there's just no avenue in terms of that spacing, whereas, you know, I love when teams cut and things like that, but I felt like with Harper already in the dunker spot, like Johnson cutting wasn't smart in that area. I feel like they were all just moving to move without there being real purpose behind their cut. That's in thinking the logic of, like, oh, I need a space here because that's going to put Dort in a bad position. Because if he doesn't, Dort can't get in there and get that deflection. Maybe that play turns out differently, and then we have the butterfly effect. But I feel like there was a lot of stuff with their spacing also that was incredibly off. My favorite Victor roll to the rim was right at the end of the first half. It was a pick and roll with Fox, who I thought his passing was pretty good in the game. I mean, Harper got picked a bunch of times for turnovers. He was pretty shaky, but I thought Fox's passing was at least good. It was right at the end of the first half, and Victor is so cagey. He does this on defense, too, where he tries to trick people into a false sense of security, like, oh, he's not there, and then he's there. He did it on offense, where he set a screen for Fox, and he just kind of popped a little bit, like he was going to— he paused, like he was going to just stay 19 feet from the rim and shoot a jumper. And when he paused and he didn't roll, Hartenstein committed to Fox completely. And then when Banyama rolled to the rim, it was like, it delayed roll, and he got a lob dunk out of it. But let's go to the other end, because you were right, I think, to go to Spurs defense versus Thunder offense. 127 points is a lot of points against a Wemby team. Obviously, it's against any team, but particularly considering the Thunder had their single worst offensive game of the season in Game 4. And this is really interesting, because there are two very distinct games within each of these games. There's the Hartenstein minutes, where the Spurs are largely playing it man-to-man with Victor on Hartenstein. And then there's the non-Hartenstein minutes, when Victor is playing his zone along the baseline. And I thought those minutes, the Spurs found— I'm sorry, the Thunders found some interesting counters to the Wemby one-man zone. We'll talk about that later. The Hartenstein minutes are really interesting, because it almost seems like the Thunder are leaning a little bit more into them, and definitely did in Game 5. And Shea and Hartenstein— Hartenstein set 18 ball screens in Game 5. That's by far his most of the series. That two-man game kind of got the Thunder down the stretch of the game. And I wonder if there's a comfort almost. I mean, we talked about this in December, when they had all those games together. The push and pull of, do you want Victor in the action or behind the action? And it's sort of like there are two different poisons. None of them are going to taste good. But they seem to be growing. They seem to be growing comfortable with when he's in the action, at least we kind of know where he is and what he's going to be doing. And I thought that they found some chemistry on that play. It's just so interesting. There are two very different kinds of games within these games. Yeah, you know, I was talking with Jared Dubin, my podcast partner on the Double Dribble, and he actually had the stat. It was, they went at Wemby in the pick and roll about 26 times. And they had like a 1.5 points per possession. Or something like that. Or 1.35, excuse me. The Hardenstein ones on his ball screens, according to Second Spectrum, 1.3 points directly, 1.5 points per possession overall. So, like, huge numbers. Like, that's a number you don't expect when you're going at Wemby, right? Like, that's an insane number in that sense. So, I think, you know, they found how they want to attack Wemby in this regard and how they're going to go at him. And I think part of it also has to do with the guards got to be better with how they hold up against. I think they need to be a little bit smarter with their attacks. But that's the Thunder's focus right now. You can see it clearly in this game. And it's paid off, like, the way this went out. And then, give Hardenstein credit. He does a great job also with the Gortat immediately afterwards and kind of screening off Wemby and creating that lane. Another $5 for marching Gortat. Every time you mention it, Mo, I hope he's copyrighted it by now. I hope he hasn't because I'm going to be broke by the end of all this. But I think, you know, just having mastered that and creating that lane, it just makes sense. It makes it so much harder. And even despite Wemby being as long as he is, it's hard to get there, you know, when you've got to try to go over Hardenstein in that scenario. Like, I think the Thunder, like, it's funny. We felt, I don't know, I kind of felt a little bit after Game 4, like, maybe the Spurs have figured some stuff out with the Thunder. I did, too. And now, Game 5, it's like, all right, well, maybe the Thunder have figured some things out with the Spurs. And this is the fun part about this series is, like, cool, now the Spurs have to adjust and figure out how do we want to handle this the pick and rolls when they go at Wemby. What's going to be our rotation behind it? What are we going to do? And I think that's going to be the thing that I find most fascinating, going into Game 6. Like, I'm so excited for this game right now, like, ready to go, to lock it down. Like, we're ordering dinner. I'm not cooking dinner or anything. You know, we're, well, I'm now largely responsible for dinner over the next few months. So this is a deal here. But, like, we're ordering. That's fair. She's responsible for some other stuff. Yeah. So. But the margins, the margins on that stuff, just because it worked in the fourth quarter of the second half of this game, doesn't mean it's going to work in the next game, even if everything stays the same, because the margins are so small and just every game is different. Every game evolves differently. And there was that stretch in the fourth quarter where, again, I think they just like knowing where Wemby is. I think there's comfort in just knowing if we do this, he's going to be here and Shea would drag him down toward the sideline base to the coffin corner where he loves to take jumpers. There was that one play. There was one possession where he took a jumper. I think he missed it. He went right into Wemby's stomach and faded away. Now, the next possession, they ran the same thing. And Wemby came over and kind of stuck around and trapped him and Shea threw that lefty bounce pass right by Wemby's leg, like right past his leg that found Hartenstein under the basket. It's such a good cat mouse game. But I also think they found something in the other kind of game, which is when Hartenstein, Hartenstein's off the floor and it's Chet and Jalen Williams together or just big Jalen Williams. Interestingly, they played no minutes, the Thunder in game five with Chet as the only big man on the floor. For whatever reason, they just don't want to do that. But when they play those more spacey lineups and Victor plays zone, I think they found some interesting ways to kind of confuse Wemby's decision-making a little bit in that scheme. What did you notice any of that? What did you see? Well, I think it was more, again, it became, a situation where it's like, all right, Jalen Williams sets a ball screen in that area and in that zone. Wemby's sinking into the paint, and it's just they're finding pockets. The rotation leads to Jalen Williams gets the ball, and then it's an immediate swing to somebody else because everybody's rotating. And then Wemby's got to rotate out to the corner, whether it's Wallace, Caruso, whoever. And some of these guys are making them. Some of them aren't. But it's like that's putting him in those rotations. And because he has to protect the paint, it's a long way to go, even for him. You know, it's two or three strides. But by that time, that shot's going up. Like he still has a long way to go. It's sort of stretching the floor out. And I think the difference between Chet in that spot and Jalen Williams as the lone big, I feel like Jalen is pushing it quicker, like not hesitating for a second. I think Chet sits for maybe just half a second longer than he should. And I think that would allow Wemby to rotate over to wherever he needs to go. But I think Williams is pushing it out. Like he had that sick touch pass. Oh, that was a great play. I mean, that was during the minutes when Chet was on the bench. But like that, you know, but like he's firing it quickly on the touch. And it's really impressive scene. And I think that his passing, not just his dreaded shooting is a problem, but his passing is what's really kind of causing the allowing this to work so well for the Thunder. And again, this is such a cool thing about the playoffs. And this is obviously partly because of. Of injuries, right? A.J. Mitchell and Jalen Williams, the second and third best ball handlers on the team are out. I'm not sure either is going to play in game six. I would bet no on both of them. But who the hell knows? We'll see. We'll see tomorrow. We still didn't really see Isaiah Joe except for one possession. We didn't see Aaron Wiggins at all. Tons of Jalen Williams and Cambridge Williams has inserted himself into this series. And this is the cool thing about the playoffs is like you need everybody. At some point, you're going to need, you know, maybe not. You don't may not need guys 14 and 15. But you're going to need everybody. But you're going to need guys 11 and 12 at some point for some quarter of some game or some three minute stretch. And they've needed big Jalen Williams quite a bit. But that play you're mentioning that touch pass, I think, exemplifies one of the wrinkles they've found when Wemby's playing his own. What he's doing is he's he's basically guarding the corner, except he's not in the corner. He's like one foot in the paint, but he's on one side of the paint. And the Thunder have decided we're going to attack that side. We're going to bring the offense. We're going to bring the offense to his side of the floor because that's the way we engage him directly. And that Jalen Williams touch pass was effectively a pick and roll became a two on one between Jalen Williams and Alex Caruso and whoever was in the corner and Victor. And he had to make a decision. And you force him into guarding two guys at once at a high speed. The very next plate on the floor was the same play. And McCain drove and it was a two on one. And Victor was indecisive. And McCain kind of went by him inside of him and flicked a layup up. They're engaging his side. And sometimes they'll clear everyone else to the other side of the floor. So it's only two Thunder players on Victor's side. And the guy in the corner will go up and set a ball screen. And at that point, with no one else around, Victor has to become a man to man ball screen defender. And they got some good stuff out of that, including a Caruso drive and a Chet kind of half dunk or attempted dunk that went in after Victor blocked it. They've just found some interesting wrinkles. And I've just I can't wait to see how this evolves to wit. But it's sometimes confusing what defense the Spurs are in. But I'm pretty sure we got the first couple of possessions of the series, maybe not the very first, but the first in a while where they played Wemby in a zone and Hartenstein was on the floor. And so they weren't just in man with him on Hartenstein. They were like messing around with the zone, even though the Thunder had their only like non shooting big on the floor. And I wonder if they're, I guess, trying that out and see how see how that looks. Yeah, I think. They were searching for answers. And I kind of want to go back to your point, though, about needing your your 12th man at the end of the bench scenario, because that used to be a thing, Zach. When I was with the Spurs, we used to always show the guys at the end of the bench. Forget what game it was, but there was a game during one of their playoff runs where Steve Kerr hadn't played most of the playoffs and they pull him off the bench. It was against Dallas. Yeah. And he hits like three threes. Right. And it's a pivotal, real important game. Situation and that stuff. And it was always the message of you got to stay ready and you got to be on top of all that stuff. So it's not a surprise. And you were on top of it. You know, I heard you talking with Bill on Sunday night talking about the Kenrich Williams threes in the corner. Like that kind of created that sort of confidence so that when he came in the game tonight or yesterday that he was ready to roll. And I think that also allowed Dagnall to go like, yeah, we got something. I can go to him now. I can trust him in this situation. Like that's a guy stepping up. With with what you're talking about. I just wanted to touch on that point because it's so fascinating because you never know which guy is going to be that role player in the moment until they do it. Well, in the Thunder, the Thunder need everybody right now with with the guys they have out. Just a couple of fun lineup notes from the series. I mentioned they didn't play Chet at all is the only big guy on the floor, which is interesting. The Chet, Big Jalen Williams combination is plus 20 in 41 minutes in the series. So it's not a ton of minutes, but it's working. So far, that combination of size and range and Jalen Williams passing has been interesting. Chet did finally sort of assert himself for in the series for really the first time offensively in game five. And that's a couple of always has very good defensive possessions, although Julian Champagny, Julian Champagny is like, oh, you're a foot taller than me. And more than that, when you raise your arms or whatever it is, I don't care. I'm going right into your stomach, big fella, and laying the ball up over you. That's actually a matchup I think the Spurs could exploit. A little bit more by having Julian Champagny run around and run off flair screens. If Chet's going to guard him, make him chase him around. And then the as the Thunder sort of search for the best shooting lineups that they can put out that don't totally shooting slash playmaking lineups. The small ball group foursome of Shea, Wallace, McCain, Caruso was plus 11 in eight minutes in game five. And I think like with. With all the guys they have available, if they're going to go small, that's the best four non bigs they can put out. Dort finally made a shot or two, but he's minus 45 for the series. And this is just a really rough matchup for him. Yeah, I mean, who knows what we're going to see. But these these two teams, the chess match is super interesting. I expect the Spurs to play and to play like a totally balls to the wall, urgent, hard playing, come out fast, like home crowds going crazy. I expect Victor to come out. Right from the opening, the way he came out of the second half, which is I'm going to the rim. I'm erring on the side of recklessly going to the rim. I'm not going to be settling for jumpers early. Yeah. A couple of things, too, that kind of like stood out to me from this game. That was like when I looked at the stat sheet, I was kind of surprised. One, I wasn't surprised. The Thunder getting 26 second chance points, like just absolutely dominating the offensive glass in the sense of successfully converting all their offensive rebounds. Almost. Into points right there. I think that was surprising for me with the Spurs not doing a great job defensively there. I was it was funny because I looked at the statute at the end of the night going like, wow, the Spurs had 26 fast break points, but I didn't even feel like they played fast, like it didn't even feel like they got that. I mean, they were some of it was sloppiness in the way they attacked and so on. But I also felt like they were too slow in the half court, right? Like and some of this, the Thunder's defense does a great job. Great job with it. They look at how they had two or three backcourt steals. I mean, Wallace completely picks. I think it was Dylan Harper clean. There's no one else in the league who does the I'm taking your dribble while it's in the air and sometimes while it's in your hand, he just he just takes the ball. It doesn't hit the floor. It's uncanny. It was like he timed the crossover perfectly. That went through a sequence right around Carter Bryant's probably last few minutes of this series where he had a rough stretch. I think it was a good thing. them for a couple of drives and just missed it the they got other good stuff out of it and part of that comes down to like how much do fox and harper have in the tank health-wise to really go full blast in the series but i expect wimby to come out like a madman getting to and i don't like but a finely calibrated man and he's not gonna do anything crazy he's not gonna do anything that compromises their transition defense takes them out of their scheme but i expect him to just come out laser focused on i'm owning the basket on both ends of the floor and playing myself to exhaustion until they have to rest me for a couple of minutes and i'll come right back in and do i'm expecting just i don't know how efficient it's gonna be i do it doesn't seem like shea is gonna have a crazy shea efficiency game in him in the series his second half was really good he made a lot of tough shots it's just this is a tough defense for him to score on when when they're playing him like they've played the last two games and he fought his way out of it we don't need to talk about the officiating they missed the goal tend and all that but you know i'm expecting him to come out like a madman and he's not gonna do anything crazy but i expect him to come out like a madman and he's not gonna do anything crazy and i expect him to come out like a madman and he's not gonna do anything crazy um yeah i expect a big victor game and look this this was a 13 point game um i thought the spurs had chances to make it a nail biter in that early stretch of the fourth quarter and they didn't and the thunder shot 44 from three to spur shot uh 29 and the thunder just gave the spurs just gave the thunder probably eight points with dumb fouls 80 feet from the basket and they were fouls they the thunder and the bonus and you can't can't do that stuff they they tend i think sometimes to get a little bit too aggressive in the moment where they think they can get that steal that's that carter bryant foul at half court you know after the steal it's you know uh castle phalanx uh shea like 75 feet from the basket in that area like i think they have a habit of kind of getting a little bit too aggressive and and i think that's where a little bit more experience might be better in that area that's where i feel like their youthfulness kind of shows up and i think like or they feel like they have to do it the other thing we haven't really talked about him but like castle needs to not try to do everything on his own too like there's an element where i feel like he's putting too much onto him and i understand why the situations with fox and harper and their their injuries and stuff and he he feels like he has a bigger load but i'd almost rather rather the gate let he let the game come to him versus him trying to to force things and make things happen because that's where he tends to run into these turnovers trying to split double teams at half court and things like that and it coughs the ball up like i want to see him a little bit more under control with what he does because i think that's going to be a really important piece for them that's a good that jogs my memory to the the phrase under control i mean castle's young and he's uber athletic and and just plays with a force that is going to lend itself to some moments of of out of control although i thought he was completely awesome for the most part in game five shea that first half was i don't know if he's actually rattled but he played rattled in that first half he missed shots that he makes like at a 70 clip probably in the paint there were two times in the game where he rose up for a shot that he usually takes and wemby was in the vicinity but didn't look like he was going to challenge the shot and then he second guessed himself and tried to force a lob pass to somebody and the lob was not available and he had a bunch of like i don't know how many turnovers and he was like i don't know how many turnovers and he was like i don't know how many turnovers he finished with five five in the first half and and just with just forcing the action trying debt like the desperation he feels if i if i see any sliver i've got to get through that sliver else it's the only opportunity i'm gonna have um just like it this but this is the fun of the playoffs this is a great player who we've spent the better part of the last four years and particularly the last two being like man he just makes it look so easy i mean just just effortless and it it ain't looking easy anymore no that's the beauty that's the beauty of the playoffs like it's not supposed to look easy it didn't look easy for michael jordan and not to compare them i'm not comparing them but i remember some of like the grittiest some of my favorite games of jordan's and kobe's and whoever were the ones where the easy stuff wasn't there and they had to get to the line they had to just throw their bodies at the rim that's that's the fun of it so look predicting individual games is complete folly i guess what i came away from that game not feeling as if the thunder had cracked the series i still feel like the spurs if they don't have a win one more win in them they have one more down to the wire game in them and so i picked thunder and seven that was my pick before the series so i think i think the spurs are going to play well and i think it's going to be a very hard win for the thunder to get wouldn't surprise me if they get it but i'll predict the spurs win just to stick with my original prediction because i i do think they could have gotten right into that game late had a couple of things flipped their way they'll play better at home so i'll say the spurs with spurs win by four will be my prediction oh okay i had the spurs in seven so okay i think i i i am i do think the spurs win game six i think we do have a game seven uh i i'm hoping it's a nail biter i hope we get another ot game and just have sort of that level of excitement and raise the level i hope the nuns are ready to go i hope they're praying and doing all their stuff and and nuns ready ready ready to keep things going i i do wonder though a little bit with just like how much energy they have left like wemby did look tired fair like we talked all about it like wemby looked exhausted and it's you know it's hard now it's every other night and it's you know this was a they traveled right after the game luckily oklahoma city san antonio not a crazy flight right but like you're still getting in late getting the rest and things like that and it's also mentally draining right and you saw the crack with him not getting into the media thing like that said a lot to me i was just i'm i i think that's a disappointment for me i i i expect wemby to be on there i i understand he was frustrated with the loss for me i think it it's it's something that he's got to do and that's that's like a little bit of a like come on man but you can tell that he's there's a level of exhaustion coming now you know even whispering the the to biombo and and plumbly whether he said anything or not i don't know but then immediately them them being a rash of fouls you know like hard fouls kind of says something so i think you know there's a little bit of a crack there that i think i'm slightly kind of worried about going into game six um yeah i mean look both it this is the nature of the playoffs like but i i don't i just didn't come away from that game feeling like the thunder had cracked the code of the spurs now whether the spurs can summon enough energy and force with all their health issues and depth issues that are home crowd home performance in them whether it results in a win or not i don't know but i'll say i'll say um i'll say that they win and you know look it's a good i guess you know who's fresh i guess it's good nick nurse didn't play jared mccain the entire year because at least at least there's one guy who's doesn't have a lot of tread on the tires all right mode to kill um double dribble podcast with jared dubin you can see him on offside you can see him on everything twitch etc etc uh thanks bud and we'll check in uh during the nba finals which begin on june 3rd location tbd thank you mo oh thank you for having me all right that's it for today's edition of the zach low show thanks as always to mike billy and jonathan on production thanks to mike breen and mode to kill for their analysis and their time thanks to you all for listening to and or watching the zach low show we'll be back later this week for a third episode a special third episode in the wake of game six it'll probably post overnight or friday morning we'll talk about game seven or about the nba finals and the spurs off season we'll see buckle up enjoy game six thanks for listening and see you next time 21 or over and president select states for kansas in affiliation with kansas star casino or 18 and over in present in dc kentucky or wyoming gambling 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