The Knicks Are Headed to the Finals! | Real Ones

Well, it's popping. Real ones. Look at Murdock here. Howard Beck and Roger Bell in a minute. The nicks are going to the NBA finals. I know you've heard that. I can smell the chopped cheese from 3,000 miles away. It's popping in New York. I already know it's 75 degrees. It's spring. It's a vibe. And it's going to be a vibe for the next week and a half in New York. So we just try to summon that energy on this real ones pod of the excitement that's going on in New York with the NBA finals there. Let me talk about the disappointment and Cleveland. Do you even run the Cavs team back as currently constructed? I don't know. I really don't know. I think they've reached the ceiling. But we'll get into all of that. Then we get a quick update on the San Antonio Oklahoma City series. Then we have a really fun mailbag, man. Really, really fun episode. Shout out to my New Yorker. Shout out to Big Baller Bin. Shout out to Spike. Shout out to all the homies. Yeah, man. Real ones. Up next. Hala. The Ringer NBA show is brought to you by Fandall. The conference finals are here. Think you know how it'll go down. Take your shot with Fandall and get closer to the action. Fandall is the best place to bet the team's players and plays during the NBA postseason. Feel the same game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout or try live betting and jump into the action after tip off. Download the Fandall Sportsbook app now and play your game. 21 plus select states, 18 plus DC can tuck your Wyoming gambling problem, call 1-800-Gamber, call 1-888-789-777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. What's popping? Real ones. Logan Murdock here. How we're back there. Roger Bell there. It's lit. We're ready to go. Orange and blue skies. They're not playing around. Nicks last night and Game 4 had a feel like a bit of a credo, Roger. Bit of a, bit of a, a motto. And it was fuck that frail shit. You know, they came in. They put the body in the trunk and Cleveland, you know, and you know, they got it. They had a hundred rounds of hundred clips, you know, and they showed where they were from. And you're just going to keep doing it. Okay. Yeah. All right. You know, it was that real shit. That shit to make you feel shit. You know, man, let me just do a shout outs right now, man. Shout out to BK. Shout out to all my dudes in the BX. Shout out to Steph. You know, you know, shout out Keith. Shout out to everybody in the ringer chat in the ringer chat and the ringer mast head that our Nicks fans. This is your time to shine. Shout out to you. Shout out to all my homies in the BK. Shout out to Yonkers. Shout out to, uh, what other man? Shout out to all my homies down there on 125th and Linux, you know, getting it popping. Shout out to Roger's folks that's over there in New York. You feel me? Shout out to everybody does, you know, that got it popping. You know how we do? You know how we feel? Shout out to World Trade and offices over there. Everybody going to work. Everybody making everybody. You know what I mean? Hey, shout out to all the folks here. You're just naming random fucking off the dome parts of New York that you know. That's what that was. That yeah. But the last part, what you know, people in and Spotify offices and World Trade Center. Oh, I didn't know that's where Spotify offices were. Okay, I understand. I mean, you need to tap in. Um, apparently we also have to do a podcast. So let's tap in with the mayor, the real mayor of Brooklyn, Howard mother fucking back. What's the like out there in New York right now? What's going on? How's life? What's up, man? I mean, it's like 75 and sunny. It finally feels like spring. Um, it's great. We would have gotten a lot of trouble years ago for that. And what can we just remind? Can we remind? We would have gotten a lot of trouble for that hour. Remember those days, do you remember those days, Logan, where if when we talked weather, because I like the weather, too, we would be we would get gold. We get it. We're going to email the season to get it. I mean I'm 75 in New York and sunny is like the best. It's fucking glorious. It's funny because as I was saying, the producer cliff off line before we started, like people always, oh, what's it like in New York right now? What's it? It's the same as every other day. I'm sorry. Come on, man. It's quiet. Like like you're going to hear some honking, some sirens. Like I don't live in a sports bar. People I think I don't fucking live in Midtown, where God only knows what was happening last night. I saw a few clips. Yeah, the place is going to go bonkers has gone bonkers. We'll continue to go bonkers. And as the finals start to unfold next week. And especially the games in New York, it will be crazy. But for most of the the neighborhoods in the boroughs, like it's just another day. I'm sorry. Like the Nix fans are on fire and have a right to be and should be. And the next couple weeks are going to be crazy. But yeah, it's 75 and sunny. It's nice. Let me let me just say this, Ben. I've been holding onto my golden ticket. My invite. Oh, you did. Well played Raj. Yeah, good job. Are you going to be? Are you saying you're going to be might be courtside game three? Is that what you're saying? No, you're going to pull up on game three. Remains to be seen now. You know, I ain't going to that. But man, what a time to be there. If there was a time that I would go like, yeah, like there's I'd like to see, you know, it's a venue thing for me, right? It's a spectacle. It's like what what the energy, no other time like the finals period. I mean, Super bowls are dope. But you know, final fours, I've been to those like those are cool. But like NBA finals is it's whole, it's a whole other thing. You know, now we live in better now. Kudji sweater now. And that G4 could fly through any weather now, Roger. Let's speak about the different types of weather patterns that the nicks have faced throughout this postseason, right? You know, they start off a bit of a rut, you know, and against Atlanta. What? What are you giving me that look? Oh, you're I'm in a bag right now. Don't you already bag? I'm in a bag right now. Let me let me continue. Let me continue. All right. Please, please lean back so I can get this thing going. I mean, this is the number one meteorology podcast in the entire podcast. So anyway, so you know, there was there was some there was some turbulence in the blue, the original blue skies to to start the postseason in Atlanta. And then they just wanted to run and just beat the shit out of everyone. And then we could talk about the game for itself and the culmination of what that was against Cleveland. And I do want to get into Cleveland in a second. But let me throw some stats your way, Roger, before I get to this question, the nicks have now outscored their opponents by 262 points over the last 11 games. It's the best point differential across 11 games and NBA history, regardless of whether it is regular season or postseason play. That's from our guy Tim Bond temps. We've seen big runs. And I feel like there's this, there's this assumption. And you know, we have definitely fed into this, but that the whoever comes out of the West is winning the title. But listen, man, what I've seen out of the nicks. And what we've seen collectively out of the nicks, it's not going to be a walk in the park. It's not going to be that. What have you seen from them over the last month? And how did that culminate in last night's game? Yeah. Look, I said the last time I addressed this, that I thought whoever coming out of the West would win a championship, but would win the championship. But I did present a caveat to that. Do you remember what that was? Do you? I don't know. How it was the caveat? No, I don't. I don't remember. It was about five minutes after this. They're excited. If the nicks would get out of this series in four. And the two teams out West would continue to, you know, beat each other up. One, the the rest that was banked, and we talked about that coming into the series against the calves after game one and how it would not get any easier for the calves after that. Just just having played as many games as they have and as many nights that they had. And two, if they were able to get through the calves in the sweep, that suggests that they are continuing to be the hottest team in the NBA because they are that. They're the hottest team in the NBA right now. And so for both of those reasons, I would agree with you, Logan. At punchers of punchers chance against anybody coming out of the Western Conference. And in some instances, a problem maybe, they're sneakily deep. They throw a lot of guys at you that can they can also guard you. They have a combination of size, one that's really physical and outworked you and block shots and is and another that is really finesse and skill and can stretch before like they they've got, you know, Jalen Brunson, who's just good a closer in the league as anybody. And when he gets hot, they've got a lot of components that could be a problem for the Western Conference. They did their job. And for that reason, like, I agree with you. I think they I think the finals should be whoever coming out of the West in the next couple games should be fun to watch in a way that maybe two weeks ago, I wasn't exactly sure it would be. Howard, this is going to be a rating to bananza. I'm sure the league is very excited about, no matter if the nicks are going to play the spurs or the Oklahoma home of city thunder. You got the finals in the garden. What is, what do you think, how do you feel the league is feeling about this match up and how they're feeling, you know, just about having it with all of the things that we have talked about with, you know, not even tanking, but also just the apron era, the parody era is supposed to, you know, take away, you know, some people were saying it's going to take away big markets. Some people were going to say that it was going to take away large, you know, payroll teams is going to give it even playing field. How do you feel about what this says and the next coming in says about where they are as a league right now? I don't think that the next rise necessarily is any indication of where the league is other than, I think what's most striking about the next, let me just start this over. What's most striking about the next is that it doesn't matter what era this is. They're not operating as a big market team, meaning they didn't just go out like the next used to do during all the years of this century when the next were failing and flailing, frankly, when they were just trying to buy their way to prosperity. That's not what this was. They got Jalen Brunson at a time when nobody else wanted to spend a hundred million on Jalen Brunson and that was below max, well below max and yet still got a hundred million, but dollars below max. That was the, I think you're taking the extension. But the first, when they first stole him from Dallas, got him in free agency, he had a contract that was like four years, 100 million or something and people thought it was an overpay. He's now one of the best players in the NBA. He wasn't the time that they got him. They did not go out and just poached other teams' stars. They were selective. They were methodical and they were smart. They had Julius Randall and they flipped him in Deven Chenzone for Carl Anthony Towns, who up until, you know, the last couple of years, and frankly, up until the last few weeks, people still weren't sure what to make of Carl Anthony Towns. Josh Hart, been with three other teams at least before the next got him. O. G. Annanubi was definitely a, a coveted player. The next got him when the Raptors were willing to to move him and the next got him, you know, for, for a couple of decent players. They've just made smart moves. And even the most criticized of all those probably was the McCale Bridges move, which cost them all of their future draft capital. And as recently as a few weeks ago, when McCale Bridges was, was having a tough time against the Hawks, Nixfans wanted to bench him, at least some Nixfans. And we're still ruined that trade because of all the draft capital that got sent out. Point being the Nixf did not build some like juggernaut based on superstars and super teams and big market with all of its, its riches. They built kind of like a small market team or a mid market team. And they built something that it, it's not particularly flashy all the time. There's not a ton of like marquee value here. You start looking at I made this point on Zaxpod today as well. Look at the teams that had the kind of runs that the Nixf are in the midst of right now. The teams that only lost once or twice or three times on the way to a championship. And you're talking like one of the Warriors teams that had KD and Steph and Clay and Dremond or Bulls teams with Jordan and Pippin, um, Shaq and Kobe. This next team doesn't have that kind of star power even. They're doing this with just like synergy, just collective, awesome chemistry, selflessness, tough as hell on defense, never let up, incredibly efficient. That's what's striking to me. They built this in a way that 29 other teams. I mean, obviously a few of them don't need to, but any team could build this. It's not even about market size. It's not about aprons. It's not about salary cap, although eventually they will have those challenges as every team does, but the Thunderer having that challenge to and the Cavaliers who the Nixf just smoked. Um, I think we're the only second apron team this season. And despite everything they spent as a smaller market, um, it didn't get them very far or they got them well short of the finals anyway. Um, what the Nixf put together is, is, is, uh, really impressive. Can't wait to see how this Western conference finals ends and who they end up going up against. We can, we'll get to that. But, um, and yeah, sure, I'm sure the NBA is happy that, uh, the biggest market on the continent is going to be fueling ratings. But I mean, who fucking cares about ratings? It's like, the, the Nixf are a really good, really fun team. That's what bad. I don't, I don't care about like, you know, whether this is good for the league. Like great finals are good for the league. Last year's finals were awesome. And it was two of the smallest markets. Can you talk about the flow state that the Nixf are in offensively right now, Roger? What are you seeing? And how can that translate into the next round? Um, I mean, I, I don't know what you could take away from last night's game. I mean, they're just, you know, Howard just made the point they're playing with synergy. They've got it, they've got a really good, um, you know, collective kind of energy. They obviously, the chemistry is right now. I was, I don't, I don't, probably not answering your question. But like, as I was thinking, there were some shout outs that I wanted to give. Like, I want like Jay right, you know, a lot of a lot of the DNA of at least three of their major, the major cogs in their wheel, um, you know, played for championships under Jay right. So like, there's a, there's a DNA that shared there from way back. Um, they, they know how to weather storms. They know how to just play through things in that way. I think you got to give him a lot of credit for that. I do think tips and I'm not answering your question right now. Um, that's always fascinating to me when someone gets a team like right there. Um, and they, and they make that move and the next guy gets them over the hump. Kudos to Mike Brown. Like, I know that had to be super special and it is for him, especially beating the calves who like, let him in Cleveland, let him in Cleveland. Like, that had to be super dope and, and congrats Mike. But, um, I think tapes has to, you have to give him some credit for, for what he was able to do with that team and, and positioning them so that Mike could get them over the hump. Um, you know, I don't, offensively, they're just teams hit a stride sometimes and, you know, we'll have these conversations through the course of a season. And I think people have heard me say before like, it's counterintuitive as, as it might sound. I wonder if they're playing too good too early. And, and I don't know that everybody can fully understand what I'm trying to say in that. It's like, you hit spurts in time through the course of a season. Probably any season baseball, any team sport where you're just in sync and firing on all cylinders. Everything is clicking. It's easy, right? Like, you're doing the same things that you're trying to create when it's not easy, but it's just easier to do it. And it's hard to stay in that sweet spot. That's why like, a lot of times people will say, you know, it's the team that's kind of, you know, got the momentum right now. It's the team that's clicking. But that's a real thing. Um, and the nicks have that in spades right now. Like they're, they're getting production from a lot of people. They've unlocked some things with Carlin and he towns with the ball. I love that they were flying up the court last night for a team that, you know, historically isn't a, a tempo team. I mean, they were, they look like they were shot out of a cannon last night. Every time a shot went up, like, you know, some of that was just horseshit, you know, floor balance on, on, on, or court balance on, on, on Cleveland, but yeah, part of those guys quitting. Yeah, but this was even, or, you know, even early when they were before they quit, you know, New York was like, we're out. We're, we're gone. And I just think, you know, teams that play like that and can speed up the way they play and not skip a beat of how efficient they are. Um, that speaks to them being in that flow state, right? How they got there. I don't, I don't fucking know. I'm not there every day, but like they're there. Yeah. Um, the, how it brought up a great point is to about the other teams, the types of teams that have gone on these types of runs, right? You actually played against one of the teams that won on the types of run in the '01 finals against the, uh, the Lakers. And you guys were coming off of a seven game series. I believe the sixers. Um, and you guys, we had played, we had played five, seven and seven. That was back when it was a five game series right in the first round, right? For you, I think Indiana was five, but then, uh, seven and seven with, um, Toronto and Milwaukee. So we, and those were some people's time series. And so you guys are tired. And the Nick, or excuse me, the Lakers were off for like 11 days because they had gone sweep, sweep, sweep. And they're exactly lost in that run was to you guys in game one. But the next, the, the, the, why I keep saying next, the Lakers have been off for 11 days. By the way, Shaq last night said we were off for 10 days. We did it. We had a parade of Disney Disneyland, whatever. Like, um, it was 11 days. I remember this specifically. And I do not remember any parades. I think Shaq might be making that up. He does have Shaq be lying. Shaq be lying. Is that something that's going to be lying? Shaq telling tall tales. Um, now what I'm asking though is, um, you, you've seen both sides of this Roger. Can you talk about that? I don't know how, I don't know how much you can get into that game. It was so long ago. But like, just the preparation, you guys got to go from across the country to go play L.A. And you guys win that game basically off of adrenaline. It felt like, so like, can you just bring both sides of what this is going to be because the whoever comes out of the West is going to be heavily favored, which the Lakers were with rest. So it's a little bit of reverse. But how do, how do the nicks go into a series like this where they have so much rest? And how do they stay sharp against the team that is going to be favored against them, no matter if it's the spurs or the Thunder? Um, let's be, let me be clear. I don't really have great memory of like, what that was like for us. Um, in my particularly small world within that, that, that bigger universe, I was just happy to be there and like holding on for dear life. Things were happening. so fast that I don't even think I digested it until the summer. So I don't really remember that. What I would say about the mix is, I think they're in a really sweet spot in terms of, you know, we just addressed how well they're playing together and then being the hottest team in the NBA, but you're also then going to be the underdog, which organically keeps you sharp, right? Like there's already a chip on your shoulder in that way, where I would fear a team that was sitting around waiting, becoming complacent would be if they're the overwhelming favorite, and it's a foregone conclusion that whoever comes out of that series in the West is gonna be, you know, you're served up to you on a platter. I think the mix have like just baked in, you know, intent over whatever course of time they have to prepare. Obviously you're gonna bank rest, right? Like OGN and OB is a huge part of what they do. He's a huge piece and, you know, he look great, but anytime you can get a hammy, like a recently injured hammy, more rest, like you wanna bank that, but I don't think intent is gonna be a problem for them. Could they come out and be slightly rusty early in the game? Yeah, I mean, of course, I think you saw it against Cleveland in the first game of this series, but as soon as you knock that off, you know, if that series in, out West goes deep, like you are gonna be playing with some real house money that you can, that you can kind of loosely throw around. And that becomes dangerous for one of those teams. Yeah, we're gonna have a lot of time to talk about the nicks. Let's talk about the abomination on the shores of Lake Erie, the Cleveland Cavaliers. Brody, wait, yeah. It's tough, what, what? They quit, they're getting murdered. They're getting murdered. Yeah, but they're, get, those, listen, man, what I tell y'all when it should start, what'd I say? I'm not, like, I don't like to be that dude, but what I tell y'all about that, that shit, they have nothing left in the tank. It's, it's a rap. Like you could come out there and for 10 minutes, you're gonna be like, we're here to fucking play. We're gonna summon everything we have in us. And there's gonna come a point where that thing goes the E and it's a rap. It's just a rap. And I'm not gonna dispute because it was ugly. They got swept. They said a lot of stupid shit at the mic. Players and coaches alike. But they did make the Eastern Conference Finals. And I just wanna do this. Any given time I was in the NBA on any team, if you told me at the start of a season, we were gonna make said Conference Finals, we're all taking it. Like, except for a team or two, right? But like, most teams are like, yeah, I'll sign up for that shit. So I just wanna respect that in that way, if you guys would allow me to, right? Like, it didn't, it didn't end well and it didn't look good. And I'm not defending them, but Western, I mean, Eastern Conference Finals is still something. To be fair, to be fair, the calves got further or farther. I don't know which one to say. The farther farther, are you the editor? How do you do it? Is it farther or farther? They got farther with James Harden as further farther. I get in my household, I get beat across the head. I don't even know, it's, they got, you know, anyways. They advanced farther. They got to a later round than they had been before. They got to a later round with James Harden and company than they did with Derrius Garland, who was often injured in these moments. So, that is something, to lay your head on. But, there's feels like there's a disconnect there, Howard, because on one hand, because of how far they've gotten, you could deem this a success. But, from what you saw those last two games of this series, and in game one of this series, do you bring this team back as whole? Right, I mean, James Harden is a 42 million dollar player option. Do you tell him that, do you try to trade him? I don't know where the market is going to be. Do you give him an extension? After what you just saw over, 'cause they kinda are who they are, and they seem like they have hit a ceiling. Like, what, what is this roster expected to do? And what do you do with this roster? Do you run it back? I just, I don't have any answers because on one hand, you did make the conference finals, but you look ugly in that conference finals, and it doesn't look like there's more of a ceiling than what this team has put out so far. This is only a rhetorical question, 'cause I, and I very much respect where Roger was coming from as a former player on the idea that like, if you make the conference finals, that is an achievement of sorts, and no moral victories and all that stuff. But, still, you advanced. It's not nothing. I just would ask this again, rhetorical question. If you make the conference finals, and you don't win a single game, and you get your doors blown off all four games, you blow a 22 point lead in the fourth quarter, a game one, did you really make the conference finals at all? 'Cause it's kind of like you weren't even there. You were over four, and you looked like shit. So, you don't have to answer that, Roger. I'm just saying, I'm just making a counterpoint. - How would they analytically won the series? Okay, so like, you need to stop with that anger on that one. Just, I, yeah. - Oh, we're talking about it. We're talking about that, but go ahead, we're gonna talk. - The answer to your rhetorical question, though, is yes. Like, I hear what you're saying, and I get it, but the answer is yes, Bill. - Okay. - Farbie, how about this? How about this Howard? The bonus, as you did. (laughing) - How about that? - You know what I mean? - I don't fucking know. - I don't know what to play off share bonuses. - Like, we're making the conference finals, but you're right. - That's second mortgage bonus, right there, baby. - Yes, that's what you did. - You said you were present. - Yeah, Dean Wade appreciates it. I'm sure. Listen, Farbie, for me to imply, I suggest a cert that any NBA team ever skirt salary cap rules, but I'm guessing on the James Harden question that there's already an extension in place, that when they made the trade for him, there was probably a deal baked into that. So he's probably there. - He's been promised stuff before. He could be in China again, talking shit about Kobe Altman being this loyal. Like, it's not official to you sign a paperwork. - Shout out to Darryl Mori. So yeah, anything could happen, but my guess is that Harden is there, and you traded a guy, an old star, 10 years younger than him to get him. So I don't think you want to just turn around and say, well, that didn't work. Let's just like send him off now. I mean, you could say some can cost fallacy, some cost fallacy and say, no, it was the wrong move. And we do want to move on because look what we just saw, him falling apart in elimination games and like, how many different games did he have where he had more turnovers than made field goals? Like, not a great postseason for James Harden. In fairness, he's gonna be 37 in August, but that's also why maybe you don't trade a 27 year old, or a 26 year old for a 36 year old, and why you maybe don't want to continue investing in him. I said this really in the series, this really isn't about James Harden. I think I said it on this pod. It's really about Donovan Mitchell and Evan Mobley, more than anybody. James Harden is in his twilight. He's not there to get you there. He's there to help get you to the next tier, whatever that is. Well, they got to the conference finals for what it was worth. I do think they have to reassess everything. It took them several years to finally decide it was okay to break up or that it was time to break up that quartet of Garland Mitchell and back court, Mobley and Jared Allen up front. I always thought there were some built-in flaws or concerns with that grouping. They got to a point where it wasn't enough anymore. And now they're in a quandary because James Harden is going to be 37 in August. And Donovan Mitchell is doing a massive extension this summer. He has indicated he wants to stay there despite continued speculation about will he want out and all this stuff. And then there's the Jared Allen, Evan Mobley fit. And there's the Janus possibility out there. And would you trade Mobley to get Janus and all this? I don't know how that's all going to play out. And I'm not here to, I haven't really thought through what I think they should do. I do think it's hard to stand pat. I also think you don't just tear down and take steps backward because as awesome as the next look right now, the last couple of years have suggested that the east is super volatile and things are ever changing in the way the NBA is right now. Who knows who comes out next year? Maybe it's the next again. Maybe it's the Pistons team on the rise that's still young and evolving and could add some guys this summer. Maybe it's a reconstituted Celtics team with Brown and Tatum for a full season or maybe it's with Brown having been flipped for Janus or somebody else who knows, like Orlando's on the rise, Atlanta's sort of on the rise. There's a lot of good teams in the east and the calves are right in the thick of that and have been the last couple of years. So I don't think you just pull the plug and say screw it, we got smoked, it's over, but they do have one of the highest payrolls or maybe the highest payroll in league and it's gonna be tough to maneuver. It's gonna be tough to make trades as a potential second apron team. So it's tough. This is why GM's will always say like, you know, the wake of something like this, like you just, you take a deep breath, you let the emotions subside, maybe take a day or two away, you have a lot of fucking meetings and you try to be as sober minded as possible before you do anything to rash. I don't know what the path forward is for the calves, but like they are still one of the top teams in the east and not at the end of that run, you know, they're not old aside from Hardin. - We'll see. Howard's trying to get us on a Twitch stream talking about Jaylen Brown might get traded for Yannis. I'm not sure if I have that happen, bro. I'm gonna relax, bro. You gotta relax. - But like I'm the first person to say that that might be a possibility. Come on. - You know, you know, you know, hey. What would you do, Roger? Like what did you see out of this team? I mean, not even, is this seem like a team that you would want to bring back? next year? Um, if my goal was to win a championship, no. I mean, I don't, I don't think that they're sealing this championship level team. Um, I actually like some other pieces. Um, I think they need another guy. You know, James Hardin five years ago, it's the bill where like, I mean, I'm trying to, I don't, I'm not as good as you are Logan with like, remembering what something was five years ago, but five years ago, to me, feels like he was still like prime Z, we still in MVP conversations. Was it that long ago? Five years? That would be the year after. That would put him in Brooklyn five years ago. Okay. No, so, so Jesus Christ, I'm old. Um, but like prime, prime James Hardin is, is we're, we're cooking, you know, but like to Howard's point, let's go seven, eight years ago. Let's go seven, eight years ago. Cool. He's not that. Like that's, you know, people would look at the pairing and expect that, but that's not, he's not that. Now, we can have the argument about whether you got to pay him like that. Like, you know, those are different arguments, but what he can actually do on the floor for you isn't that. I think they need another, another dude. Um, personally, I'm not a GM. I don't know who's available to them. Um, the yannis of it all would be a note, no brainer. Like not even a question. Um, but they need another dude because I just don't see Evan mobility as a dude. I, you know, I, I, he's a really nice player. Um, and I don't mean to be disrespectful in any way, shape or form, but like I, I think you need another dude, man, you, you got to have another cat that like can carry, they can take the ball, they can create. Um, you know, if you don't have Donovan Mitchell cooking for one reason or another, you don't have to rely on James Harden to do that type of load carrying. That's the way I see their team. I, I don't hate, you know, a lot of their pieces and I like a complete tear down is not what I'm suggesting. Now, from a cat perspective, like that's again, another conversation, but from purely a talent on the court basketball perspective, I think they need another dude. It's supposed to be Evan mobility. No, but he's not Evan mobility. I know, but it was supposed to be and when they drafted him, remember, we had all these comparisons like he's going to be Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett or a combination of the two and he's going to be inside and out and ball handling and shooting from distance and all this, he's going to be like this multi purpose two way big and he just hasn't like, he does a lot of really important things at a high level. Yeah. Um, but he's, he's not, he's not a co-star. He's a complimentary player right now. He's also like 25, I think. So he's still not even quite in his prime. So yeah, but no, but like I get and I get I get sucked into the argument of like he's only such and such age, but like Evan mobility just seems like a guy who is who he is at all times, right? Like he doesn't seem like a guy that's going to just flip the switch and he seems like the guy that has all the attributes, but just maybe just doesn't have it in here to be that number one. Right? Like he could just be a number of a great fourth option on your team on a championship team, but like I don't see him carrying and that's the other thing about the calves, all of their dudes that are supposed to be dudes, including their actual dudes. I don't believe them. I'm sorry. We talked about Donovan Mitchell a couple of pods ago, Roger. You brought up a great point where it was when I was like, you know, it's a travesty that Donovan Mitchell didn't get the ball down to stretch it and overtime series and game one. And you made the great point that I was just right in front of us the whole time. No, he has to demand that shit. Like and but that Donovan Mitchell has always kind of been there, right? Like he's always been a version of that. And James Harden even seven, eight years ago was stinking up the joint in elimination games, even at his peak, right? So what I see right here is I see a number one option on the Cleveland Cavaliers in Donovan Mitchell, who I don't necessarily trust to demand a ball and the team's biggest moment. And then but you're calling this his team. So if you trade for somebody else, what are you going to trade for it? If you trade for a Yannis, that was it. Yannis is team all of a sudden. And even then you have questions about his long term health. Um, I think what you're going to have to do if you're a team in this era, even if you get to the conference finals, it's going to be so much variance with this apron era. I think if you see a team that is this not a conference finals team or maybe they've hit their ceiling, you've got a pivot fast. You have to pivot fast. And I just don't I see a lot of a team with a lot of great assets. And I but I don't see a team that is presently constructed or any type of move that you make is going to get them to a certain point because if talent level, I think they're at the top of the Eastern Conference. I think the talent level alone, they should be able to make it to the finals. But when you go into a series with a team that has the Mitchell capacity to actually beat the shit out of somebody, I think the the calves are going to wilt under that pressure, which is, and I think that's going to happen year in and year out. And so I just think that they've just hit a ceiling and you just got to cut bait and figure it out with some of my other team because I think that inherently when they cut when the chips are down, this team is not going to come through for you. I like, I like your point. Um, you know, I see Donovan, I see Donovan Mitchell as a a star player, not a superstar player, but like, um, superstar is like a very select you guys, but there are stars. But within that star, like level itself, I don't think he's like a top guy in that category, right? So that and that's okay. Like you, you have a star. Um, but then you got it, you know, like to really be good, then you got to have somebody in that next, like, like, uh, kind of one B category, you know what I mean? And then, you know, it's like a slide in scale. If your star is like low on the star totem pole, you need your one B to be like a really good one B, right? And then you need your number three guy to be at the top of the number three category. And they just falls like low on a lot of those categories, which limits your ceiling in my opinion. Like, but so I agree with you. My brain just rationalizes it like that. Like, to your point, like, I love Donovan Mitchell, but I don't see him as like, uh, you know, put the fear of God and you if you're going into a series, he just, he just, he just doesn't. Probably not. And then, you know, James, where he's at at this point and then Evan mobility, look, whatever he could have been, I wasn't really tapped in in his draft class like that. I don't know that I was one of the people that was tasked with like giving an opinion on that. But when I watch him play, I would love to have an Evan mobility on my team. In a certain role. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't see anything about his game that that tells me he's going to turn into like, give him the ball and get out of the way as he creates for himself or others consistently. You know what he is? You know what he is? He's a great like open run guy. When you see him in an open run, you're like, and that's what you see in the draft process, right? A lot of open runs, a lot of workouts and you're like, damn, that dude has everything. But yeah, he's a, he's a, you know, he's a, it's tantalizing. Yeah. No, I don't. I understand exactly what you're saying. Like that when you're sitting, when you're watching people in there, they're running around with that, with that level of length. And then you see a skill combination with it. And then there's athleticism to boot. You're like, oh, shit. If we can get, if, and everybody always thinks like they're the one, like that's the funny thing about the NBA. Everybody thinks like they're the one that's going to be able to save it. It was like captain save a, right? Like, you're, no, I got this. I'm going to take care of it. You know, but like, and I don't mean to be, I'm not trying to, he's a very nice player. He's just being, again, you're asking him to play a role. Like, it's not where he's supposed to be cast in the movie. I think he's really important to keep built as part of what your build is, right? If you're keeping Donovan Mitchell, I think you still want to have him obli. Um, he still has more versatility in a higher ceiling than Jared Allen has important as Jared Allen has been, right? So like if you're trying to figure out like which piece is your peeling off, I don't think you're trading Donovan Mitchell. If you're doing that, you're just, you're just deciding you're, you're going back to some sort of rebuild, right? Maybe not destroying it all the way down, but like without Donovan Mitchell and then then what's the point of having Harden? Um, so you, I don't think you're doing that. And there's this temptation out there like, oh, well, they trade all this draft capital to get Donovan Mitchell, pull the plug, flip him to get draft capital to replenish, right? Here's their win totals for the four years that they've had Donovan Mitchell 51 48 64 52. It's a pretty damn good four year run. A first round lost, two second round losses. And now this conference finals meltdown. Like they have been a very, very relevant competitive competing or a compelling team. And that's not nothing for a four year run. You can't, you can't just keep banging your head against the ceiling and hoping for a different outcome, um, and not do anything. You can't stand still, but I also don't think you overreact and, and, and burn it all down. It, it's just hard finding the path forward in part because one of the big, um, chips that they had to play was the Derrius Garland chip. And it's been played. And it was for a guy 10 years older than him. So you don't, you don't, that's a lever. You can't pull anymore. You can't trade Harden and get the kind of value that Garland represented at that time now. And, and Garland finished pretty strong in LA. And I know, listen, he was always getting hurt. And the undersized back court was a problem. And I totally get all the rationale for why they, they made the move. They did, but they did shorten their window. And they did play perhaps their best trade ship. given his age and and upside still. So and they don't have draft capital and so like it's it's going to be very very difficult to maneuver from here. But I think that's also a reason for why you just kind of stay the course and hope you know try to do what you can around the edges. I there's there's no easy there's no easy path, so it brought you by Amazon Prime ever find yourself scrambling to grab that special something for a last minute party a spontaneous date or even that in prompt to game night at home. That's when prime same day delivery swoops in that essential item you thought you'd miss delivered the plan saved the win secured because with prime same game delivery you can grab it and go before the moment passes you by same game delivery it's on prime. Visit amazon.com/prime to find millions of items delivered fast available in select areas terms apply. Okay, now we got to just get messy really quickly since we're talking about the cabs. I know how it doesn't want to talk about this we're going to still talk about it analytically speaking like I said the cabs won this series this happened. Okay, I saw a man eyes I think on a spreadsheet or something like I know the quote the quote was was damning in a lot of ways right but it felt like it was like the divide between analytic spokes and non analytic spokes in real time that was just you know people who didn't like analytics could just go at that quote of be like look at this dumb shit that was said right and analytics folks was like actually you don't understand what you said. What is this like what is it I always go to the question what is this quote say about the league but like what does this quote say about the league right in like just the divide we are between analytics and non analytics people right like it's unfair on both accounts in certain ways but still like it was just a damning quote at a damning time for you know coach trying to get it and I get what he was trying to do. But it just it didn't land well what are the ramifications of this and what does it say about the league was there some context like because again I was on the road I was in the YBL gyms all weekend so like you know I saw the big to do about it but like how was what was the question that was posed to him that elicited that response like was was was is there some context that I need to have before. So my understanding I'm glad you asked my understanding is and this is of course what happens right in our cut and paste aggregator world where things lose all context and that's not a justification and it was a bad quote regardless but my understanding is that Kenny was asked something to the effect of. You know you're down oh three no one you know and you know obviously all the usual stuff teams have never come back from O3 and the NBA blah blah blah what what still gives you optimism and and that's when he said well you know analytically he's not actually saying we won those games or that we want analytically what he's saying is. That gives us hope yeah so as a means of explanation for why you have hope it's that yeah there's shot quality which did not result in shots made but their shot quality was really good and I think maybe better. Then the next in those games and that is a result he like he's again basically standing on process our process was good the outcomes were bad the shots didn't go in but we did the things necessary to put ourselves in the right position. He wasn't actually trying to declare we're up to to one or something like that's as a nine that's crazy and people interpreting in that way I think are doing it is in a somewhat disingenuous way but it's still it's a clunky quote it's a bad way of explaining it there are there were easier ways or better ways to say I think we're playing we're doing things the right way the outcome hasn't been good but we're doing things the right way as opposed to don't use. Using analytics is going to the word analytics is going to trigger a bunch of people anyway saying that we won the shot quality battle is going to trigger a bunch of people anyway because nobody gives a fuck about shot quality if you lost on the scoreboard by double digits. His premise wasn't bad the way he phrased it was regrettable I'd say yeah I mean how do I say this right like I agree with you Howard I don't have a problem you know the people that were reacting the way they were reacting when I was catching my little segments of of media when I was on the road didn't represent that well they there was very little context given to what he was asked but given the context. I don't understand what he was trying to get to the I don't have a problem with the analytics but I think it's the guy with the analytics. That can marry the feel and the personality and the charisma with the analytics. That pulls that press conference off better here because he can say you know if I say this stupid shit and go into this hole with analytics it I'm going to get fried I am I am absolute fries right now so let me just say hey we're getting a lot of shots that we like we're not making them right now and he didn't pull that off. I don't have a look I'm not the dude sitting here railing against analytics I don't want to be that guy I was blessed to spend a year in the front office and I saw how you know some of the guys that I worked with were more heavily into the analytics appreciated my more player feel. I'm kind of input and I appreciated theirs and I saw firsthand how those things can kind of work together and if you can get the right kind of formula in your front office or in your decision making. There's a place for all of that I would just say it's like anything in life when you're at a balance and you're relying too heavily on just feel and I test or just analytics and you know I think you have a problem and. Most of the guys my age or older are going to always give the guy who's relying on the feel and the I test the benefit of the doubt more than they're going to give the guy that's relying purely on analytics the benefit of the doubt that's just the way they weren't as prevalent like they they were around when I played but like you had to go looking for them. The generation before me you know that's that it's a tough sell to them so like I don't really have I don't really have an issue with it I understand what he was trying to say he did not execute it well at all and it come and let's part of your job. Right like I said this before you know part of my job in Cleveland was to get to David black because David was you know used to deal in with Phoebe and you're a league and and those press conferences and that media is completely different than ours and you know David would get up there and and kind of be you know glib and kind of like you know just kind of playing the role that he played there and my job was to get to him before the fuck press conference and be like hey. David listen here's what we're trying here's what we're trying to say now you know I wasn't the boss of that like I get those directions from Griff or somebody but like there's messaging that we're trying to get across there and like as a team. If you're the one with the mic in your face your job is to execute that and he didn't do it. Yeah I want to just quickly just note because this is not really an analytics debate and this is not being analytics referendum it was a reference to a specific kind of stat that is sometimes useful to coaches and sometimes not whatever this is not an analytics debate and I just want to say because Logan brought up the idea like oh the analytics people are going to like to they're not rushing to defend him I want to point this out. Seth, Seth, Seth part, Seth part now who I teach with the sports business class room in the summer and of course he wrote for the athletic for a long time Seth's done all kinds of stuff and it's awesome and used to work for the bucks. Seth in the midst of that blowout last night posted a blue sky quote I dare him to shot quality this one and capital shot quality because that's the that's the stat so his point was kind of like just don't even like as an analytics guy said this like just stop. Don't you're using this to deflect in a way that's not healthy for anyone so I don't think the analytics community was happy with this either Logan if I can base it on Seth's tweet. I apologize to the analytic community for having you fucked up my bad that was that's that's low lows bad also shout out Seth I'm a fan of your work I think. It was I believe I agree with Roger large would just like an optics type of situation right like you it is part of your job and Kenny I can since just I don't know if he's that good at that part of the job right like and even last last night I forget the quote he just said some stuff that I was just after the game last night where I was just like I don't think I just a lot of times when I see pressers from Kenny I guess it's like I wouldn't want to say that right now like maybe you should say. The analytics quote to your team just like just to your team and you don't have to tell it to us because I mean we all rail against the the aggregation culture and that but it is the culture it is what it is right and it's we've been in this world long enough to where you have to kind of know how you need to deal with things in this new world right like. If you think something's going to get taken out of context like it's going to get taken out of context and you have to think about that before you say something right like that's just the world we live in no matter what right and so. He just has to figure that out going forward and just like we all have to but that was the biggest thing about this type of quote it was just like we're going to run with it and it's going to be a big thing and it's in this day and age it's going to have the potential to take on a life of its own and maybe. How would in a way that it wouldn't in previous generations. Yeah yeah a lot of a lot of sorry but a lot of what he's like yeah his stuff just lands wrong on the ear just hit your wrong sometimes right and like. You know it's really interesting though because. Because for both sides of that basketball community that I'm talking about, like the eyeball, former player, more experience, like actually on the court, that guy can come across and things can hit your ear wrong too. And usually generally when that happens with them, it's like, you know, I played you didn't. So you don't understand what I'm talking about, right? And that's offensive in its own right, right? Like just because you didn't play something, like, or live it doesn't mean you couldn't have studied it and worked at it and gotten to the point where you fully understand it. And that that rubs, you know, you wrong as well, the analytic community comes across as, and I don't mean to paint everyone in this light, but typically what hits my ear wrong with them is they kind of think they're smarter, like no matter what you're talking about, like we're smarter because we have these numbers here and they both nerd alert energy. It's a beard alert. They equally rubbed you the wrong way, right? Like one's coming from like, oh, you never did this shit, so how could you have an opinion on it, right? As a player, like, you weren't as gifted as me physically. So how dare you have a brain that speaks the same language that I speak? And the other one is just like that like all, all, all, most all time great players are terrible coaches. Yeah, it's just, it's an interesting thing for me, right? I don't like you. And terrible talent evaluators too, but. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Okay. Before we get to mail back, what do you think? Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You were doing so good, brother. You were like smooth, brother. That was up there. You smooth. Go. We're doing it. You know, I got the weather in the Bay Area. Logan. That's beautiful right now. I'm looking out. I can see the bay bridge. It's going to be like 70 degrees. I'm going to walk after this. There we go. I love the part of the pod where everybody's weather is great. It's awesome because everybody's like in a chipper mood. And, you know, hey, um, turtle park and Piedmont, bro, do yourself a favor. Okay. All right. Is it better than Lake Merit? Did you ever take a trip to Lake Merit when it was sunny and it was beautiful? Did you ever do that? Um, no, I did not. Lake Merit. I think that's how to put me in an apartment right now. Like Merit. Um, actually, no, not for you. I've heard stories about NBA players and Lake Merit. It's an excellent rate. It's a good place to visit, but I wouldn't say live there. Yeah. I elected not to live there. But, um, yeah. Turtle Park Piedmont. It's just a nice stroll, man. My boys used to love it. It's a body of water within the cityscape, which is honestly a commonality between OKC and San Antonio, which is a series we're going to quickly transition to. Roger, what were your thoughts on game for? Um, I, I tune out at halftime. I'm just being honest with you. After the win-by-three. Not at halftime, but like quickly thereafter. Um, here's my quickly. I'll just say this. OKC might be at a point. Um, we're physically they don't have enough playmakers as simple as I can put it to counter what? San Antonio can do to you defensively at times. You know, they were already fighting an uphill battle because coming into the series. We talked about the things that San Antonio can do to you from a size, versatility, guarding the perimeter standpoint. That's before you introduce Wembee to be able to take care of multiple problems after they've happened and challenge at the rim. But if you've only got one real creator. I mean, that really narrows a team scope when they're having to prepare for you. That's, I don't know how else to put that. It was crazy seeing game for like heart and steam be their second option in the first part of the game. And once he was done, like once that floater wasn't cooking, it was like, OK, where do we get all this from? No, I'm telling you right now. That's a really like, OKC's. Unless she has. Just an incredible shade game, which I don't even imagine now. Antonio would allow him to just beat someone like, I don't, I think that's out of the cards for them now. Right. So like, you're just going to challenge everybody else to beat you without those other two guys on the floor. I don't see how San Antonio lets him go, you know, mono, Imano and try to beat someone. But like they would need otherworldly performances from two other people. I don't, I don't see it. I think they're in trouble. And it's amazing to consider when we've talked about the thunder being like the deepest team, you know, in the modern NBA, right? And all that depth. But you just take out two pieces. And that, and it's, and if it's those two pieces. Jalen Williams, AJ Mitchell, like suddenly. All that like the rest of that depth doesn't matter because everybody else are like shooters and defenders, specialists, whatever. But having guys who can do a bunch with the ball on their hands and take that pressure off Shay and compliment him and keep the defense honest. It's, it's massive. So it's not just that it's two players. It's, it's, it's those two. It's those two. Yeah. And just not and just to piggyback and to go back, that's the, that's the player that I'm saying Cleveland needs. What do you want to share? I'm saying like another guy, another guy that can create Williams. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So the, I want to go back to that real quick. So the problem when I have it at Jalen Williams type, right? Or Cleveland specifically is down to Mitchell would still be the number one guy, right? And again, I think with him being the number one guy. I think there would still be a ceiling if I were to put Jalen Williams on that team. No. I ceiling. I think you're raising your ceiling with the Jalen Williams type with Don of the Mitchell. Like I really do because he's like, you know, Jalen. Jalen carried at times last year in the playoffs. Yeah. It's just, you know, he really sucks, man. It really sucks that he's hurt. Like he got, because he played so well and like put his body on the line last year, he basically sacrificed a year. And that's really hard to see, right? Like also, if there is a world based on how you're talking, Roger. If OKC somehow gets out of this and like, you know, she goes super saying because I feel like that's the only way or like chat turns into like Bill Walton over the last four games. And they're going against a Nick's team, who's well arrested. Did they get through that series too? Like if that were to happen, just hypothetically speaking. That's without with to without Jalen. Like so, so AJ, AJ Mitchell's got a calf, right? Yeah, I've had cast. He's out. That shit's not healing. That's not healing. Like today, tomorrow or three days from now. Um, the hammy was sore and then was upgraded. Is what I heard to like a string of hammy again. Yeah, I believe he's like questionable for tonight. I don't want to get to I want to make it evergreen enough so you know, people. So here's a deal. Here's a deal with it. Here's a deal with a questionable hammy. You're going to go out there and if you can play for a while, you will and then guess what is more than likely going to happen to that questionable hammy. That's one of these powerful one is more than likely, right? So, um, would they, how would they fare against the Nick's not well, not well. Well, if you again, to Howard's point, having the creation, right, and those two specific players, right, which is your, your one B and then you're back up to the one B, right, like they're both they're the two guys that you need to fill that rule. If I'm, if I'm preparing for you as a team, you know, part of the exercise is like as an offense is to have so many things that the preparing defense has to account for. That it's information overload to some degree and, you know, in these gray areas, people are going to make mistakes because they got to worry about, hey, what's the assignment when Logan has it and it's not a same size screen and what's the assignment when Logan has it and it is the same size screen or what's the assignment when Logan has it. Um, and he's gotten a naked side and there's, there's no help, you know, for the role in the corner, like what, these are just, this is one player, like what, you know, what are we doing when Logan has it. But when I've got to do that for really three guys that spreads out the information that people have to like, you know, absorb and execute in real time and they make mistakes. And, you know, when you only have to do that for one person, it really allows everyone on that team, not just the focal point of the defender that's guarding him, but the rest of the team, Allah, some of the times you see Janus play. What do fucking teams do to Janus? We're going to build a fucking wall. It is five sets of eyes like, hey, bro, no, you're the only thing worried about here. Yeah, but, but like it really allows the team to do that in a way that I have real concerns for OK, see if they cannot, they're still really good, chase unbelievable, they have pieces and maybe chat is unlocked in a series like the mix in a way that he's not unlocked in the San Antonio series. And if that would be the case and I saw it, I might sing a different tune, but like, I'm concerned for them. Like, hey, that was the, I mean, the thing about it is, I feel like I feel like against any other team in the Western conference, maybe Denver at full strength is an exception to what I'm about to say. But any other team in the Western conference, I feel like under these circumstances, I think the OK, see thunder could pull it out, right, because also I think against any other team, again, maybe Denver at full strength. They won't be, they wouldn't be getting their ass kicked as much as they're getting in this series, like, it's just taking a toll playing against a team like San Antonio gaming and game out, but that's something that we talked about all season, right, and why we were like, oh, shit, San Antonio might be the anecdote to this, right, because they can, they can match up what you will. They're physical and they have, they have one, like, I don't want to say the greatest defender of all time yet, because it's early, but Jesus, like, what do you want me to say here, right, like, you have women, Yama, who can just erase all of your flaws as a defense, it's just, it's, it's tough. And that's, that's, that's what you're going to see in these playoffs. you know. know, we get into kind of the, um, you know, just late stage, just NBA with just how taxing this game is already the teams that you see win 60 games. They're not a shoe win by any means to get to the finals because you can get your ass kicked with a certain matchup. And that's what we're seeing here. A little compelling series and also might be a little anticlimactic with all these injuries. I'm not going to lie. Um, because we didn't get to see them at full strength all seven games or six or seven games. So that's tough. Anyways, um, let's get to Mailbag really quickly. Um, Cliff, Cliff, you booted out the two. Um, Philly fan, are you feeling how do you feel about the next going to the, to the finals? Are you doing okay? Yeah, I'm a lot of propaganda, a lot of propaganda in our death row east chat with you and and stuff. A lot of mixed propaganda. I'm, I'm cool and man, shout out to the next. I got mad love in New York. You know, I mean, you used to go back and forth as a young boy, my family and Queens, I used to live in Brooklyn, Charlottes in New York, man. It's Jamaica. What up? Queens Bridge. What up? Queens Bridge. What up? Yeah, Charlottes in New York, man. Hollis, what up? Flushy. What up? No, I'm not flushing. That's what a mess play. I can't do that. Eddie, who is let's get to let's get to this mailbag. This is from Butch Rosser. I hope I'm saying that right. Butch Rosser, 25, 26, all topsy is the title of this email. As a long time association fan, I find it interesting that for all the mostly justified hand ringing over tanking injuries this year, what the season is going to end with is one of the following. A, okay, see, firmly putting down stakes as a historical force. B, the spurs making the biggest season to season jump in league history with a star at a center who isn't even going to hit his prime until the 2030s. See, the next winning their first championship in almost 60 years and causing a joy gasm amongst the New York fans that will last until the heat death of the universe. This is all to keep a what? What? This is how to make him say it again. Yeah, you just were wanting to take there. This is all to queue up queue up a question. If that of silver and or his staff where to take down or take a top down, look at the season and doing all tops, you know, what worked and what didn't throughout the year. Do you think that the likelihood of a banger ass finals with plenty of historical stakes can cover up some of the leagues worser sins. Thanks for the pod and the thoughtful reactions as always, all the doors, butch roster. I hope I'm saying that correctly. Butch roster, I also, he has a quote in this email. I got people to take care of and writing his way better than doing actual work. Shout out to Shay, shout out to say Serrano. That's amazing. That's amazing that his email sig is a Shay Serrano quote. That's that's fire. I love it. Love Shay. Um, you know, I wrote a whole column coming out of the all star break about how Adam silver was facing like more simultaneous crises than maybe any commissioner and NBA history. There's just so much going on between the the tanking issues and, you know, whatever you want to throw in there. Um, flopping capture convention gambling all this other stuff. So butch. Like I see what you're saying. Like this has been like, I think it's a bit of really tough season for the NBA broadly speaking, right? The discourse around the league, something some of it on the court, a lot of it off the court has been difficult, not positive, not great. Um, I do think that at the end of the day, like, people just want to be entertained. And so a lot of these things like capture convention feels like the biggest thing in the world when Pablo first breaks that story and it just kind of moves to the background. The gambling thing, we thought like the wheels were coming off like every like, oh my god, like there's a whole opening up and it's going to swallow the NBA back in October. And we've barely talked about it since then people care about the games. They care about stars. They care about being entertained. They care about compelling series. Um, the nicks are an incredible fucking story. They've been in this amazing run and to, to Butch's point, they're going to face either the thunder trying to go back to back and with with a really great young core or the spurs making their debut with when be at age 22 in his first post season ever making the finals incredible and then playing at the garden. Incredible. Yeah, I do think at least for a time that will all obliterate whatever concerns angst there was about other things in the league this season. But those things still exist, right? Like the league still has shit to address. They're going to be voting on new lottery for measures a couple days from now. So that will be right back in the headlines. Um, the flopping stuff like I can't go, I can't go online for five minutes on any freaking platform without somebody yelling about the thunder and saying like they're just a, they're completely a product of like foul grifting and this and that, whatever in flopping, I think just shut up all everybody already. Like just enjoy the freaking games. Like calm down. It ain't that bad. I'm overreacting by allowing myself to react to social media at all because a lot of it is so stupid. Um, but I don't think most of that is really detracting. I think we're going to have an incredible finals. And, um, yeah, well, the rest of that stuff will, we'll come back around in due time. Hey, Howard Roger. What do I always say? What do I always say, Bill, Roger? What did I say a couple pods ago? What did he say? What did I say? You get, no, just point. I was trying to pull a Roger into. Oh, I know, I know what I always say. I do know one of these questions. Yeah, what he said. Everybody stay off social media. The cure, the cure for controversy is winning. And the league is winning right now. You know, they, it's, it's, we've said everything under the rug, um, ratings, bananas, all that stuff. Controversy has no shot against winning. And if they continue to win, it's going to look, oh, you know, we're winning. We're making a lot of money. We just had a fucking New York, um, the way Roger says it like a New York versus Wimbee, uh, finals. Wimbee could win his first title. It's always important to get that early when you're a young guy of his stash. You just get one early chip in the bank and, uh, then keep on rolling. But like, yeah, man, there's somebody's storylines here, dog. There's enough joy gassums to go around, I think. You come on man. All right, man. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Um, I got a duck for cover. Oh, I'm sorry. I had to, I'm fucking touchy, man. I was up early this morning to do exact spot, too. I'm just like, I'm just, you know, I'm losing it. Jesus. That does that one is like, you know, you're cranky when it's too late and you're cranky when it's too early. There's like a three hour sweet spot, which is good. That's pretty much it. Yes, you nailed it. All right. All right. Cool. All right. Cliff, what's the next question? All right, let's, let's, let's end off with this one. This is a free agency question. This is from Yenato Baloo. I hope I'm saying that rightly. Yenato Baloo. Hey, Rowan's big fan. Love the show. Question about free agency. Do you think the winning team influences free agency decisions and strategies and the rest of the league and now how differently do you see potential wins impacting free agency this year? If the thunder repeat versus the spurs or Nick's winning, which do you think causes the biggest wildest free agency moves? Or do you see it as management having their plants already fixed in a champion in a champion, not really influencing offseason moves like that? Thanks again. Love the show. Go, Nick's. Yenato Baloo. Yes, sir. I think, you know, um, what are your question? So, uh, you sleep. He's sleep. It's fine. It's fine. You're not asleep. I'm listening. All right. Cool. All right. You got a front row seat. This is what I think, man. I think that, um, if the Nick's lose, there, there's more chances of not necessarily up. People will just make it another move just to fortify their roster. I think San Antonio and the thunder, if they were to lose or win, I think that they still just stand pat, bro. Like, I think that they're a very patient front office. I don't see them just rat like like the spurs were, were, uh, confronted with like, hey, do you guys want to get KD? Do we want to get KD and bring them into our program? And they didn't even, you know, they didn't even budge, right? Um, and that was the biggest fish to go get. Did they want to get you honest? They don't necessarily have to. They're fucking Victor Wombon Yama, man. Like they, they could just afford to be patient. Same with San Antonio. I mean, same with, excuse me, same with OKC. I mean, Roger just kind of touched on it, right? Like they have a lot of injuries, but that is a championship level roster right now, right? Like there doesn't, they're still, there's still a two man race between those two. And now it just mean tinkering. But I don't necessarily think that, um, you know, them losing or winning is going to impact them. Um, I think that if the Nick's lose or win, I think that would more have an impact on what they do in the offseason. Howard is our, as our New York correspondent. Do you, is that, does that track? I've read the question a little differently, actually. I was thinking it was more about like, the, how the league reacts, right? Every challenge. Like how's other teams react? Yeah, because, yeah, yeah. We're always trying to figure out how do you take, because every champion in the moment looks unbeatable, right? Because we always overreact and we're all prisoners in the moment. And so it's like, oh my god, the Celtics, how is any team ever going to knock them out? When when Yokech won his first few years back, oh my god, how's anybody going to deal with the nuggets? And then we certainly did that about the thunder because they were the youngest team went to win a championship in like 50 years. And one of the deepest and they've got all this draft capital. They can just keep replenishing. Here we are. You're later. I don't want to say they're on the ropes. It's a tied series. But in a way, it kind of feels like they're on the ropes based on just the war of attrition, the injuries and the fact that spurs are just so damn good. And there are another team that's super young, tons of growth ahead of them, lots of flexibility, lots of draft capital to keep building. I actually have a story up as it happens on the wringer.com today about the idea that how the the rest of the league is dealing with the specter of Spurs Thunder Diamond. for years to come started reporting and writing that before the Knicks swept. So I'll do fairness and respect to the to the Knicks. But they're not the team that everybody's like going, oh my god, what do we do with that? Because they don't have a Wemba Nyama or a Shay again, I'll do respect to Jalen Brunson. He's not in that same tier. And so I think the way the league reacts to these teams is to say, well, especially if you're in the West, we have to we don't have a choice. If we're going to do anything in the next five, six, seven, maybe 10 years, we do need to find some sort of antidote for Victor Wemba Nyama. We're not gonna we're not gonna be able to like like knock this guy out of like take him out offensively defensively, whatever. But we got to find a way around him or we got to find more biggs to to foul him. We got to figure out something. And similar with, you know, that the Shay jailed J. Dub Chet Trio, right? How do we do we build a team or augment our team in a way that gives us enough, you know, whether it's big wing defenders to deal with Shay or whatever it may be. I don't think it's extreme, but I do think teams as they go into the offseason are at least thinking about this stuff. But one of the things that the GM's told me for the story that's up on the ringer.com today was just basically like you can't you there is no Wemba Nyama just like there was no there was no Michael Jordan Stopper. There was no Shack or Kobe Stopper. Shout out to Ruben Patterson for declaring himself a Kobe Stopper. But you find enough defenders or players that can attack their weaknesses and you try to win your own way and make them have to deal with you too. Because you're not replicating Wemba Nyama and you're not replicating Shay. Last thing I'll say, oh, you have anything wrong? I do. I do. I know. Okay. I'm not really participating in the segment, but I just want to say that I appreciate Howard just clarifying what I try to tell people all the time. I never said anything about Kobe Stopping ever. That never came out of my mouth. You know, people come to me and they're like, no, Kobe or like they'll be like he says to Kobe Stopper, I that was not me. I was like that was Ruben Patterson. I think you actually specifically during your playing career when somebody presented. I think you were actually asked about it once and you actually tried to say like, no, no, no, I'm not saying that, right? I think you did that in real time. Well, I said, nobody stops like nobody stops him. But I do think it's instructive to look back at that era where first teams were loading up on like, you know, it was like Dale Davis and Antonio Davis or Biggs to foul Shaq. Teams worst. We're loading up on and it was a different kind of challenge Shaq at his size. So you teams were loading up on big strong dudes. Not because they thought they could match Shaq, but just they needed somebody to stand up to at least and maybe foul them. Teams did go on a run, especially in the West, whether it was Ruben Patterson in Portland, whether it was Doug Christie in Sacramento, Bruce Bowen in San Antonio. Roger, you were part of that wave. Like there were teams looking for, you know, capable wing defenders. Hopefully, who could also shoot a little bit to at least give Kobe some resistance who and who were bold enough and physical enough to stand up to him, right? So like, that is a thing. And I think there's some version of that probably that will go on now with regard to the Thunder and Spurson. Who knows, maybe maybe the next as well, they're constructed a little differently, right? It's not quite the same formula, but but teams do react that way. They're looking for guys who can at least stand up. I think that what's going to happen is it's just going to be if the the goal is to stop Wimby is going to be like how it was in those 2000s when everybody was trying to stop Shaq and fortifying their roster to try to to guard a Shaq like figure, right? Or it's because or like in the, you know, late 20 in the early 2010s when like the Thunder inexplicably like just traded for Kendrick Parkins, right? And they're trying to teams just do this where they kind of it's always reactionary. It's whenever something is reactionary, it's typically too late. You know, you saw it even with Steph, right? When Steph was doing great, other teams are just trying to, we're just going to go small and we're going to try to be the anecdote by going small. I think you're going to see that over the next 10 years to try to just instead of making a team that is just going to be good for the sake of being good, it's going to be, oh, we're just chasing Wimby and we're going to try to fortify a roster to do that and I don't know if that's the move. I'll just say like this, it's, it's, look, Shaq was unstoppable. They only make one out of Shaq. No, but they, they, they make way more like bodies that can deal with seven, one wide body than they do mofuckers that can guard seven, six. They're not walking around. Like I don't know, you understand what I'm saying? Like I can throw six, 10 with this was just big physical straw. I could throw him at Shaq and like their bodies to throw at that like seven, six is a lot harder. Yeah, 50 cent is coming. Okay, that has been another addition of Ruins. What a fun episode, man. We got Roger to stay up for an hour and 15, baby. And he got the last word. That's crazy. Oh shit. Right. Right. Yeah. Thanks, buddy. We're getting ready. We're not fucking around. We got to see you on Friday. Ah, all the shits talk soon. Bye. Must be 21 years and older and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas, dark, casino or 18 and older and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming gambling problem called 1-800 gambler or 1-800, my reset call 1-888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org backslash chat and Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org and Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelp ma.org or call 1-800-327-5050 for 24 seven support and Massachusetts or call 1-877 hope and why or text hope and why in New York for Louisiana call 1-877-770-7867