The Kenneth Copeland Interview (EP 186)

It's hard for me to wrap my mind around this idea that God wants everyone to be wealthy, everyone to be healthy and things like that when we didn't say that. We want everybody to be prosper. Being rich is more than enough to take care of what you have and enough left over to help somebody take care of themselves. The thing that's more attractive to people about this prosperity, health, and wealth message is those things rather than Jesus. Where do you find, "Hey, this is something I enjoy versus this is something that maybe sit on the throne of my home." Before we get into this interview, there's a couple things that I want to tell you guys about. Kenneth Copeland is a prosperity gospel preacher who teaches another gospel that says, "God wants every Christian to be healthy, wealthy, and prosper. And if you aren't doing those things as a Christian, then it is your fault. I want to clarify, I do not agree with the prosperity gospel." That's the whole reason why we sat down. We got the opportunity to do the first sit down interview with Kenneth Copeland in over 15 years. And I made it very clear to them. I was like, "Hey, guys, I disagree. I'm going to be very respectful in the conversation, but I do not agree with the prosperity gospel." And so, this interview is a little bit different where I sat back and asked a lot more questions from a journalistic perspective, whereas I want to understand where he gets his doctrine from. I really don't understand. I want to know how he finds it in scripture. What that looks like to the person and ask a lot of questions and do more digging to let the idea speak for itself so that we can understand why the true gospel is important. You know, I believe Paul makes a good case in 2 Corinthians that sometimes God allows a thorn in our side to keep us humble and reliant on him. And so, it was fun to hear his perspective and challenge him even though I disagree, and I want to be very cautious by going into this. But also, my heart was 1 Timothy 5. Kenneth Copeland is in the latter parts of his age. She's a little bit older. And I tried to do my best to hold to 1 Timothy 5, which says, "Do not review an old man, but appeal to him as a father." And so, I tried to come at him with challenges as if I was challenging my father and not a harsh review, quote unquote. So I pray that as you watch this interview, you listen to it and he's going to tell a lot of his stories. And then, when we get into the prosperity part, that the questions that I ask I pray that they compel you in such a way to thank God for the true gospel and not that God just wants material things for our life, but that God wants us and that he is the prize even if we lose everything. Because that is the goal. I love you guys, thank you again to the Copeland Network, you guys are extremely hospitable to us and welcoming us to have this sit-down interview and enjoy this episode. 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If you're going to pay for phone service anyways, why wouldn't you support a company that actually has Christian values and morals and the heart behind the company is to see the gospel go forth? If everything is way easier than you think, plus they'll give you 15% off for life and give you the first month for free if you just use my promo code Bryce. Let's live out what we believe. So go to PatriotMobile.com/Brice or call 972-Patriot today. What's going on guys? Welcome back to another Bryce Kroffer podcast. I'm Bryce and today we have an incredible guest sitting down with us. I mean, from my knowledge, this man hasn't done a sit-down interview in over a decade. And so we're excited to welcome Kenneth Copeland with us this morning. How are you? I'm doing good. Good. Well, thank you for being with us. I'm always well in the household of faith. So if you just stay with it, everything will work. Amen. I'm grateful that you're here and letting us come and visit you and be with you. But you know, for anyone that doesn't know anyone about anything about you, you know, next generation, you know, who are you, where are you from? What was that like? I was born in Lubbock, Texas, December 6, 1936. Of course, that was right at the tail end of the Great Depression. And then my dad moved us to Abling, Texas, and we lived on 733 sunset ride. And my dad brought a brand new, nice house for $1,750. And he worked for John's Business College. So since he was in education, then during World War II, his fuel wasn't rationed. And so he traveled a lot. And then there in Abling, I grew up there. And then 1952, we moved to Fort Worth. I didn't want to do that. I wanted to be an Abling Eagle. Well, let me fast forward about this far. When I was in high school, Holly High School had never in a baseball track, everything else, but nothing football. And so my class, and my quarterback was 100 in his, and he and I are still really close friends today. And so we did it. We went all the way up, guess who we played in the final? The Abling Eagles, and they beat us 46 and nothing, but so far, I'll blink, go, Holly, they're going to get there one of these days. Well, and while I was in high school, they did a team times, foremost dairy company, did a team time talent scale. And I was 18, and of course, seeing, I tried out for it. And there was a girl in high school, her name was Jimmy Faye Powell, and Jimmy Faye could just play it. And so we went to the WBAP Fort Worth studios here and found out what all to do. And the set was set up like, you know, like a drugstore. And Pat Boone was the, but was the hit of it. So I sang several things to audition. And of course, my big song was, oh man, River, they said, that's probably not going to go on what we want to do. How about you were blue velvet, well, that's more like it, but money, honey, mm-hmm, over there it's more like what we want. I like that. That's not a great. I won it three times, and got a little radio, and I won it three more times, and we went to the studio and counted it down to 10, and turned on the switch, and it was color. It was Friday evening, beauty barn dance. I had on a white hat and sang ghost riders in the sky, and Pat and I in the family are still very, very, very close. Awesome. Anyway, in coming to Fort Worth, there were things that took place here, you know, in my life. And I had a hit record back in 1957 called Pledge of Love. I'd been in the Army. And then Terry, my first daughter was born while I was in the service there. And of course, you know, she's just precious, and of course, George Pearson's is my son and one. He pastors him, I see church, anyway. I went out there trying to get in that entertainment, but it didn't work. But how did that did come in that recording contract? How did that deal? Well, a lot of pressure, and I gave up on it, I was very quick. I went to my dad, now my dad said, "Can I, if I should unzip your head, wouldn't anything the motorcycle and aeroplanes come out?" Well, right there at the end of World War II, they saw the war was practically over anyway. So there was a man by the name of Wooten in Abelene, and the Wooten hotel and a number of things there. And someone called my dad, I never did know who it was, and said, "We're going to fly Mr. Wooten's aeroplane, would you and your son like to come?" Well now anyone that's familiar with Amilia Earhart, it was that little, a lock key to the lecture that she flew, that's what it was. I can see it in my mind right now. Okay, I got everything settled in the back seat, I was already in the front. He looked over that, and he said, "Don't you touch anything." I sat there like this, and I was off the ground. Well, now we talk about, now you have what you say, but I didn't know that then. I was walking away and my dad had me by the hand of eight or nine years old. I said, "Daddy, I'm going to do that." He said, "What? I'm going to fly aeroplanes." He said, "Boy, you can do it." Well then, came to Fort Worth. And I remember my dad saying to my mother, "Eight of Invented Copeland." And my grandfather was Chum Owens, but he's blood jerky. He went to the sign-in for the draft and they said, "No, we can't use that nickname, Chum." What's your name? W-E. What does that stand for? William Elmer. He named himself that day. "Hey, Cherokee, man." Anyway, then he's my grandfather and just, oh, what a guy. Anyway, we did go out there when it old farm and spent a lot of time there. So he went to work for National Line Insurance Company there in Little Rock. It now has merged with other people. There was a carlight in Fort Worth at 1010 Texas Street. I understand it in there anymore, but it was then. I worked there for a man by the name of Bill Golidely. And he also owned an aviation company. So I came home and told my dad, I said, "You see, I got an education." I said, "I want to learn how to fly." So he shook my hand. He said, "All right. I'll stay with you till he gets a commercial in your own home." So I sold out August the 24th at 4 o'clock in afternoon at Meacham Field, 12 years before DFW. Love field in Dallas. And most people won't understand this, but aviators will. The final approach fix on an instrument landing system is called the outer marker. Well, Jim Couch had been a military instructor, and I had a couple other instructors that weren't all that good, so Bill brought him in. And he said, "You want to learn how to fly or to just walk around in this guy?" I said, "Well, I want to learn how. Can you take it?" I said, "I can't if you can dish it out." But needless to say, he did teach me how to fly. I could be in fly. So I lined up out there in this load system, 150, 55, 2, 3 echoes ready for take-off. Rather than 2, 3 echo, your number 8 to follow a DC-3 just outside the outer marker. Do they have something painted on a barn out here or something? Why don't I say, "Sir, this is my first solo." All right. 2, 3 echo. Can you hold your head, yes, sir? Can you hold your altitude, yes, sir? Now turn based me, I'm leaving now and then turn based and then finally. As soon as you see that DC-3, go under your wing, you can turn based. So I did it. I did 3 touching goes by myself. I am a pilot. I don't know anything, but I'm a pilot. And I went on to that and I got my private license and I'm working on them. And then I kept working at that. And now I need a multi-engine riding and I'm just going up the ladder in the aviation world. And TCU was playing Arkansas in 1961 for the Southwest Conference Championship. And so I asked, I told Bill, my dad bought cars from him. How about my dad going? And he said, there's no place to stay. I said, well, yeah, maybe. I said, dad, call up there and see if you can get the penthouse. So we did. Well I went to an after-game party, of course, my dad didn't care anything about it, but I go into that. And that penthouse, anyway, a man came up to me and said, my daughter's best-looking girl in the state of Arkansas. And I was doing this, a comedian back there in those days called Brother Dave, Dave Gardner. Just funny, never off-colored at all. And one of my favorite was, hey, James Lewis, put down that wheelbarrow. You know you don't know nothing about machining in the giant. He's a Philadelphia, anyway, acting a fool at that party. And this man kept telling me that, he said, I'm going to prove it to you. So I told him, you know, how to get there around the party. I don't know where all that is. So I'm standing there Sunday, August the 8th, 1961, October, beautiful blue cobalt sky. Looking at that elevator, best-looking girl in the state of Arkansas is going to get off this elevator. That elevator, up and on, said, oh, man, he went and killed. I said, glory, I'm thinking about it. It still brings tears to my eyes and I think, but we walked out there. And we walked out there for some reason. She just reached over and patted me on the back and I fell in love with her. I never heard of the root of bitterness, but it just left me. And I was, oh, let me tell you something. So I said, if you ever been in an airplane ride, no, would you like to go if my mother can go? So we went down and I told Bill about it. And he said, sure, just put them in the back seat. And I had to show both of them out of fashion to the seat belt. And we flew around, her dad was there and they got back in the car. Bill said, give, you take the mother, I'll take the daughter, especially compared to women I ever saw in my -- and he wasn't kidding, they were just beautiful. Anyway, my father-in-law was a war hero. And for those that know, because I was in the United States Army in 1957, but I have a picture of him on the back, D-Day Fourth of June -- all right, no, D-Day Fourth of June, 44. First, a big red one over here, where he was sitting two hash marks for years of combat, the blue infantry braid which many's in the infantry. And three rockers up and three rockers down with the diamond in the middle are his top soldier, say from Sergeant Major. And his next rank would have been second lieutenant. All of that in combat. The North African campaign, first infantry division, was under patent. The North African campaign, Battle of the R&D, and that was the Battle of the Bulls. Here's just a Sunday school teacher from Arkansas. Came back home, PTSD began to drink. And anyway, I said, Gloria, I need to ask your dad's hand in marriage and he said, well, yeah, I introduced you to her. And this little girl's head bouncing back and forth and it was Jan, and she's been in the ministry now over 50 years. So that's a little bit of background behind him. He had a massive heart attack. Now, he remarried, Moan Air never did. But his wife was a member of the first Baptist Church in Nashville, Arkansas. They rushed him to the hospital and of course, Gloria and I flew over there, since we could. Her pastor said, Copeland, I waited until there was absolutely nothing, no part of that operation left. And I took him down the Roman road. No more PTSD. He never took another drink. Gloria died God for every morning. He went home at 77 years old in that magnificent, God doesn't fail and it's a rich thing. But when you were growing up, when did you, when did you, when did you claim to have start following Jesus? Like how old were you? Well, I was right, all the life. Your parents were believers? You kidding? My mother was a switcher. She'd get behind my little legs and my daddy, he was a disciplinary. He was a military man. No, he wasn't. He was in between the wars. And her appendix ruptured on the basketball court and back in the day, that was a death sentence. And so they told her that she probably wouldn't live. Well, he'd just used cadaver clamps 'cause he'd got in there as ruptured. My grandfather went in there and said, "She dies, you die." So he sold her up but didn't do a good job of it and she suffered from that all of the life. But you grew up in a Christian house? Oh, I did. And my dad, he's just my hero, man. That's awesome. but he'd say to me, 'Can't I?' other again, I'm a whipy. Twice I did it again and he did it. He said, "All right." And then what I told you, it may be two or three days later. I realized later, he wouldn't do it if he's hurt or a man, but he'd take his belt and he'd tan my rear end and I think about him today. I'm so glad that he did, because I grew up with great respect for him. I mean, when he walked in the room, as a grown man, I stood up. And we went camping together one time and on a ranch out that he had a friend out there that had some land in a soil bank. And so we went out there to go camping and talk about some things about ministry and so forth. And so I said, "You want a cup of coffee before we get in the tent?" Well, then their solar conservation, they had water that was coming down. So I went down this little stream stream and I had just no metal coffee pot and I had already washed it out and everything was clean. And I just scooped a small there and bought it and made coffee. And so the next morning we got up and I said, "Dad, that coffee is good last night?" Well, yeah, it can't be good. I said, "Well, this morning I'm not going to get another frog like I did in this one." I scooped up a little frog. There was a frog in it. We both just lost it. He said, "Okay, no frogs." But that was my then trip. If I got to travel with him in his traveling, it was just absolutely wonderful. I think that's amazing. I think, you know, Malachi 4-6 talks about the hearts of fathers turning their sons and their sons turn to fathers and I think more than now than ever, especially my generation. I get so important for fathers and mothers to believe in my generation. And that really encourages them to-- And we would talk together, visit about things together. And I mean, one time, mother had all of me, she wanted. I mean, all she wanted. She grabbed a belt and took out after me and I said, "Mama, that's enough." And I jerked it away from her. "Don't ever do that." It was really tricky. I started doing this. She jumped on me. I said, "Mama, I'm sorry. No, get off of me." And she started laughing. I started laughing. They wouldn't do anything. But anyway. So you had met Gloria after that after that after party, the Arkansas TCU game and you guys get married. I remember you saying-- Okay. We went on to Arkansas and in Central Flying Service, I got to multi-engine rating. And all was really going good. And so in a beach craft baron. And then--and so my boss was clawed over. And he was my best man. And Joe Stewart, who was CEO, was a Southern Baptist preacher. And we chose April of the 13th. And so we got married and he's living with him. And you had asked her to marry you on your first date, correct? Yes. We walked up on the porch. Well, I did my thing. Now, Mac, I told him all about him. And he said, "Now, you take her to the rocket room down at the hotel. They have one-time jukebox." So Johnny Mathis came on singing "Misty." So I sang "Misty" to her while we were dancing sheet. Then, like, in the map, I walked up on the porch. I said, "Gloey, will you marry me?" Okay. And went inside and said, "What have I done?" I don't even know this guy. Oh, well, I get out of it later. That's 64 years later. But-- You sang to her while y'all dancing? Yes, that's real riz. Do you know what riz is? Have you ever heard that? That's like a--Riz is like, you know, like, you got--you've--you swooned her in the head game. I did everything I could think of. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like you had a real riz. Look at me. And so-- I like that. Wait, do I? Look at me. I miss helpless as a kitten up a tree. Feel like I'm clinging to a cloud. I can't understand. I get misty just holding your hand. Walk my way and a thousand bowlings begin to play. Is it the sound of your hello? The music I hear. I get misty the moment you're near. Does that take you back to that moment? Oh, yeah. But the other one was a rare price tune. You're the best thing it ever happened to me. Oh, wow. I've had my share of life's ups and downs. Life's so good. The downs have been viewed. I know it's because he has blessed me. And I know it's because he gave me you. If anyone should have run my life story, we just finished the edit on it about two days ago. That's so cool that you--anyway, how you and Gloria met. We, uh, we've never had an argument. Wow. We've been discussions. And we've just sit and talk about it. I only raised my voice to her one time. And I don't remember living in a little rent house. I don't remember now what set it off. And I just stopped in the middle of it. I said, "Oh, Glow. Oh, baby, you don't deserve this." And I just fell down over this couch and I said, "I've got a preach." She said, "I know it." Let's go back to 1962. I flew a man from Little Rock to Shreveport. He went by the name of Weir. He was an executive with the Arkansas New Zealand and Natural Gas Company. I came back and, you know, got him off. And she--I told her, you know, it'd be lovely. And I got back in. She was at the stove. I went in and took my suit off and came back in there, the kitchen there, a little down there and sat down. And I heard it in my spirit, "Can I--you don't get right with me. You had to do the devil's hill." I said, "I know it. Oh, what do I do now?" I heard a woman by the name of Ms. Taggart, Sunday school teacher in the University Baptist Church, Natalie in Texas. Boys, you have to ask Jesus to come into your heart. I thought, "That's old lady Taggart." That's what we call it. She called herself. She's a widow. I said, "Well, here goes Jesus. Now I've never heard of him in New Jersey. Jesus, come into my heart. Profanity was gone from that day to this." And so in 1962, you said, "I don't know. I don't know. She's right in church Christ, not in the baby's church." I said, "I'm sitting like this, a little chair. I said, Gloria, and she and I came all over there. I said, "Come here." What if I were to--oh, what if I were to speak for God or give my testimony? She said, "Hallelujah." I said, "What?" She said, "Well, the Bible, your mother, sent you that you never did read it." Said Ken Precious, "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added to you." She said, "I just said, "Lord, I need things, so take my life and do something with it. We jumped up and hugged one another." January, 1963, man by the name of William Standish Reed was having a Christian medical foundation meeting. They said, "You know, anybody wants to come up. I turn around to my mother." I said, "That's something we ought to have." Yeah, I just grabbed Gloria and up, we went. All the men were praying for me and all the women praying for her. And you know, hang on, let go. I didn't know what they wanted me to do. But the men just gave up on me. So Gloria was standing right there and there was still a praying for her. So he should come over here, lay your hands on her. I said, "No." "Oh, what?" Lay your hands on her. I did. I'm telling you, I'm paying the power of God like knock me backwards and I stumbled back up on this little makeshift platform. I heard it clearly is shimman from all. I got to go back to work so Monday so let me know what takes place. The next day she received, first time in her life she'd heard the term born again. We met people that were lifelong friends that day, which she came back to Little Rock with and they lived in Little Rock. But I knew so little about it. I'm flying a small airplane and I was just sitting there thinking and talking to myself just about letting them talk it down, just the drone of the airplane. And I said, "Lord, I don't know what all I know about this. I must have heard the word anointing there because I never heard it in my life. I'm going to say some of those words again." And anything to this for me, I'm asking you to anoint them. Here it came again. Now I'm concerned. I got to talk to these people. Well, I think I didn't see she move for the rest of the Lord God. I'm going to have to talk to ATC here again, but she's going to be listening to them. Little Rock approached her. I thought, "Well, that worked." That's how little I knew. Landed. I'm telling you, I laid my hands on the airplane, the car, everything you could think of. And so that's where it began. And how long have you been in ministry four and had KCM? Now? Yeah, now. To this day. Well, I was in the ministry before. We started KCM in 24 January 1964. Wow. Not already been preaching to a full Gospel of Innocements, fellowships, and things like that up before that. Before that. And but that's when this ministry started. So this January is 59 years. And you know, I've done a lot of traveling, traveled, been times that sitting in the makeup chair with Sherry, like we did today, I'd sit there so exhausted, I didn't know, I couldn't tell how I was going to do what I had to do, and with stress. And I was preaching for Mike Borber in a tent meeting, prison tent meeting, and I got shorter breath. And I had no idea why. Well, I went to the cardiologist and he checked me out. I had one blocked artery, but it had bypassed itself. But I had aphid because of all that stress, and so they installed a pacemaker. And the FAA has dealt with pacemakers a long time. There's one thing called a Bruce Protocol, and I'll get to that in a moment. Well, the Apostle Paul said physical exercise is good. Profit of little it just means it doesn't last long, you have to do it every day. But that doesn't mean don't do it, he didn't, he told him about it. He intended for him to do it. But spiritual exercise, of course, is greater than that, that's more prosperous, so he said. I had dealt with that already, and got a lot of weight off. But then this thing happened, and I had the Lord say, I created you to rest 52 days a year. You don't rest 52 days in five years, and you're exhausted. He was speaking to you about the Sabbath, and when was that? Oh, that back in 2004. Wow. We said that I had been getting convicted about recently, there's a purpose that God designed the Sabbath, and you can get a lot done in six days. But you need to rest, and resting, I have a really good treadmill, and you can rest on that treadmill, just go in there and take a nice walk. I don't have to go outside to do it. It's right there in my home now, and I don't, but the exercise part is to get it moving, get the heart going, get the heart going, get it going, work it, work it, work it, work it, work. Gradually, work right up to it. And so that's been a pretty consistent rhythm in your life since 2004? Well, now 2004, the Lord directed me to do a live, big band album with a group called Joshua Experience, rehearsal, rehearsal, rehearsal, rehearsal with this big band. And there were spots and places, I mean anybody in Googling this, and there were spots and places where, you know, it had to be correct. Normally I shower at night, and if you walk into my bathroom there, if I walk up to my shower stall, the shower state is here. And there is a bench across here this way. And there were some other things that had happened right before that convention, and I was just exhausted, so I waited until Sunday morning to take my shower. And I just let that hot water go across me, and I pitched the shower to the bench and it didn't make it, it went in the corner. And I twisted to pick it up, and I ruptured a disc in my back, and I screamed, I crawled out of that shower, I couldn't walk. That's the worst. I crawled out of there. And the young man and his wife, there were carpractors at that time, David and Lynn Weeter, just screaming, screaming, I crawled out of there and glory called them just immediately. And then that was corrected with stem cells, I just obeyed God, I didn't do what he said. Start walking, don't quit. I paid the price right there, you know. I had a bowl cut when I was younger, and I don't want you to have the same bowl I had, and so that's why I love these products from based bodyworks. 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So go to basebodyworks.com, use code brice for 20% off, get that free toiletry bag, get your set because confidence should not come at the cost of your health. Alright guys, so I'm back with Brother Copeland here and we're getting ready to dive into the scriptures. You know, I have a lot of questions about the prosperity of onense health and weld. You know, growing up for me personally, if I'm being completely honest, it's really hard for me to wrap my mind around the prosperity message and things like that. And so I just kind of wanted to have some dialogue here, where do you get this from in scripture, where do you see this kind of share my thoughts, but before we kind of dive into the scripture and where you get your perspective, I mean, from your perspective according to scripture, how do you define abundance and prosperity? Well, Jesus came and said, "The thief comes but for the steel to kill and destroy it. I've come that you might have life and have it more abundantly." Prosperity, when one mentions prosperity, most people think about money. Now money is not the root of all evil, but I've said the love of it is. And there are people who commit that, who don't have any money. That's right. True prosperity starts with John 3/16. Yeah. That's where it starts. Absolutely. And then you go from there, you go to the second chapter of the book of Acts, because being able to pray in the Spirit is the gateway to the supernatural. And you're just not ready to prosper all that big financially yet. But I would say just from my experience over the last, oh, 57, 58 years, that the biggest part of Christians do not know that they've been redeemed from the curse of the law. What does that look like? Well, let's just take a look and see. Let's read this. "The Lord thy God, for it is He that gives you the power to get wealth, that He may establish His covenant which He swore unto your fathers as it is this day." This is covenant business. And this book is a book of blood covenants. blood of animals, blood by circumcision. the sinless blood of Jesus. Let's go over here to Galatians chapter 3, and then we'll go back and see what that curse looks like. Thirteen for his Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law. Being made a curse for us, for it is written. Now let me just stop right here. The integrity of this written word is absolutely essential. Rightly dividing it is essential. Understands what it means when one receives communion. When I finally realize that I'm a blood brother with Jesus Christ, I'd rather die than to do anything to shame him. Ever, ever, ever. I don't remember now why our airplane was in a shop or something. Anyway, I was reading E. W. Kenyon's book, The Blood Covenant, and this is back in the day when you could just take a shuttle. Listen to this. The blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. I speak not after the manner of men, though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man dissonals or adds there to, now verse 29. And if you be Christ, then who you Abraham seed, and airs according to the promise. Now we've got to go back over and see what that's all about. So we'll go back here to the book of Deuteronomy once again. They had just come out of Egypt. There's about two million of them. So if you can imagine two of them on Mount Evolve and Mount Gerazine. There's a million over here on one's side. And they're shouting across that valley of Shechem. They're shouting across there. And they have come and it comes back and said, now this day. So chapter 27, Moses, with the elders of Israel, commanded the people saying, keep all the commandments which I command you this day. And it shall be on the day when you pass over Jordan. Now here's where we're going. And when we get over Jordan, we're going to run into trouble. It shall be on this day when you pass over Jordan, unto the land which the Lord thy God giveeth thee, that thou shalt set thee up great stones and plaster them with plaster. And shall write upon the words of the law. Now let's stop right here. When Cain killed Abel, there was no law against it. So that began the law and the prophets. And once a prophet of God spoke something into this earth, there's no way the devil could get it out. He had it to deal. And it started out. I'm going to paraphrase. There's coming one. He's coming. Well, he killed every prophet. He could find thinking, maybe this is the one. But there was a great announcement made one day in the Jordan River. Now John the Baptist said, you know, I can't do this. I don't want to. Jesus said this. You must do it that all these things be fulfilled. Now when you go back to God in the beginning, the word is Elohim, the plural, that us make man in our image. Right. So now we're headed in that direction. And the word came, this is my beloved son. Here you him. And the devil says, I got him. So he was on every prophet. He was killed. Everybody he possibly could. Trying to get up to that point. But this is so important to you, to me and to all believers. Now the verse of the 11, Moses charged the people the same day, saying, these shall sound stand on Mount Gerasim to bless the people when you come over Jordan. Simeon, Levi, Judah. Okay, that's our side of the mountain. Ishikar, Joseph and Benjamin. That's the Apostle Paul's side of the mountain. These shall stand on Mount Ebo. Now Ebo was alkaline and nothing. I mean, couldn't you think row on it when you really see a picture of it? To curse. Ruben, Gad, Asher, Zebuland, Dan, and F. Tallah. And the Levi's just speaking, saying to all the men, cursed be the man that makes a grave an image, your molten engine image. Well, I have no other gods before me. I make no grave an image. That's commandment number two. And all the people answer and say, cursed is he that's at light by the father of his mother. And all the people shall say, I mean, this roar going back across there. You probably could have heard it from miles. Cursed is he that removes the neighbor's landmark. Now come on over here to the 18th verse, our 20th chapter. It shall come to pass if you will harken diligently to the voice of the Lord thy God to observe and do all of his commandments, which I command thee this day after the Lord thy God was set thee high above all nations of the earth. And all these blessings shall come on you and overtake you if you'll harken or listen under the voice of Jehovah your God. Blessed shall you be in the city. Blessed shall you be in the field. Now I want to stop right here. It's become the blessing of Abraham. But if you go to book one, he created everything and blessed it and saw that it was good. And he created this whole garden and everything before he put the man in it. And if you take a good look at that, blessed is the first word the first man ever heard. So it was the blessing of Adam. But it came down to be the blessing of Abraham for this reason. Abraham, 17th chapter of Genesis. Well, let's go there. That's good. One of my Bible teachers growing up said always be a good, respectful skeptic. Like read the word. You notice, well, let me put it this way. You can't fight thoughts with thoughts. Jesus said, why take your thoughts? Say it. You shall say under this mountain. You can't think and get anything done about it. You can't fight thoughts with the yet fight thoughts with words. And faith, the field of words dominate the laws of sin and death. Now Genesis 17, Abram, you need to go back and study Abram. This is some kind of guy now. I mean, all those kings came against him. And you know, old Chad said, you take, I'll take the people. You take, I'll take the money. Abram said, don't ever let it be said that any man made Abram rich. But almighty God, I don't want any, I don't, I don't want the strings out of your shoes. Well, he just armed his household. So you know, there was a lot of supernatural stuff in that. Because they owned the night. Well, when I was in the US Army, we aren't, we rule the night. I mean, that's, yeah, but that's where it started. I am El Shaddai. El Shaddai is the God who's more than enough. It really refers to a man, a woman's breast that, that, when a woman has children, like Gloria, for instance, she's everything. She could understand them what they said and I didn't have a clue. But she spent all day and all night with them. Well, I am El Shaddai. Walk before me and be perfect, be blameless. I will make my covenant between me and thee and will multiply thee exceedingly. Abram fell on his face and you might think like this. There's been a whole lot more times and once I fell on my face and God spoke with me. That was true when I went to all you because I had 27, $24,000 left. I'd had an open vision. I knew I was supposed to be there and I just fell on my face on this little house that they had arranged for us. I just fell, thought of my face, man, just praying in the Spirit just fast. I could. And I stopped and thought, I wonder if he'd seen anything. Well, it's about time I couldn't get anything in ends like, "Get on your feet." Man, I hit a military braze. I was standing there shaking all night. I was just shaking all over. He said, "I sent you here. I'll take care of you here." Your ministry doesn't start—if you get out of school, it starts now. They can't make a minister out of you. I've already made a minister out of you. All they can do is train you. I went out and Gloria said, "What happened to all night long?" "That's where there's my direction." So I had already been to orientation. Mrs. Campbell is printing the first quarter. I don't have any money. That's Mrs. Campbell, man. I'd make a collect call, "Yeah, I don't know. I'll call my dad." He said, "Where are you?" I said, "I'm a Registrar's office in all over the university, why?" He said, "Eddie Matthews." Now, Eddie Matthews was in the construction business. He had no idea where I was. Eddie Matthews came by and brought a check and said it was for your ministry. I said, "How much?" $375.15. Wow. And I had about the 15 cents later and I thought, "Well, Gloria, now I'll get a candy bar and go broke." So now, he said, "Take care of me." He paid that bill. And the Lord absolutely arrested me out there in front of the LRC. Go up to the sixth floor. And this just came out of my mouth. I said, "No, that's the Vatican. I'm not supposed to be up there." Not in here. We're in here. Not out out here. We're in any believer. They worked for me. First thing I had to do is find the elevator. I couldn't -- I put it in the fifth floor. It's just open. Well, it was the first year of ORU. I didn't know it. It was the library. It didn't have anything in it yet. You said floor six. Okay. Remember now, I'll take care of you here. That elevator opened. I walked up to this woman. I said, "My name is Kenneth Copeland. I just registered for school. I'm a commercially rated pilot. And I need all the help I can get." She said, "Tell Dean Zennick." "Sir, I am -- I just registered today. And I'm a commercially rated pilot. I understand this ministry is aircraft. I need all the help I can get, even. I turned around. My name's Oral Roberts. I actually started. Listen to this. I got my first faith list. Two weeks ago, I started to hire. A new copilot. The Spirit of the Lord said, "That's the same Spirit that said, "I'll take care of you here." The Spirit of the Lord said, "I have a student coming, and you're my man." Tell Brother Louise we got our copilot. The Spirit of God told him, "No, don't hire that guy. I have a student coming that's supposed to have the job." He's not going to tell me that ahead of time. I'm going to have to walk my faith, which I did. Well, he became my father in the Spirit. That kind of trust. I realized, out there in front of that LRC, he arrested me. I actually had -- where I just kind of stuck. I realized I could have turned and walked off, said, "No, I don't -- I don't have any money. I'd have been a world of hurt." Because I didn't need any more money. Then later, this was so cool. A man by the name of Colin Steele was head of everything on the road. I was in two of the last tent meetings at that. And things -- he said, "I'll take care of you here." Things began to advance. Then Brother Steele came to me, and he said, "Kenneth you're a grown man, don't you drive the revs car?" "All right." Brother Steele said, "Now, don't start a conversation with him. You let him go first." So we were in Oklahoma City. He wouldn't let anything disturb his thinking because of the gift he had in his right hand. And he was so powerful. He just stopped. He said, "Kenneth, I jumped. People will always tell you you can't do it." Find out the will of God. Now, that's when you search his book. And that's when you pray and talk and think things about it. Confirno longer with flesh and blood. Get your job done at all cost. One, two, three. You know, I think you said something interesting earlier about -- about like abundance and prosper. When we were room we were insurowing into that subject. You know, you mentioned something. You said, "You know, the love of money. There's people that don't have money. That struggle with the love of money. I grew up -- I worked on boats in Destin, Florida. And I had a coworker, double my age, who had no money. Atheist wouldn't believe in Jesus. I would talk to him about him all the time. And I'm right there with you. I agree. I don't think there's a dollar amount on someone's bank account that makes it sinful because obviously my coworker at the time. He really struggled with money. I think the hardest thing for me to wrap my mind around like the name it claim it, the prosperity for me, is when I look at in the second Corinthians passage of Paul. Paul is writing about that thorn in his side. And you know, there's theological debate on what that is. But you know, he says, "I'm grateful for this thorn because it keeps me humble and reliant on God." Oh, absolutely. And so, it's hard for me to wrap my mind around this idea that God wants everyone to be wealthy, everyone to be healthy, and things like that when we -- We couldn't say that. We wouldn't say everybody would be to prosper. John said it, "I pray that you prosper and be in health as you're something to prosper." Being rich is more than enough to take care of what you have and enough left over to help somebody take care of themselves. So is it -- No, let me back up. We were going and I started out with nothing. And now we have offices and staff on five continents. We didn't try to do that. We started out on the radio. I was in North Texas there in a little town called Herbert Texas. And I had my outlines laid out before the bed there. And the way I do my preaching outlines, the title is in blue in the scriptures and red. And I was praying about what I have to do tonight. And the Lord said, "Is there victory in the new birth?" Absolutely. Is there victory in the filling of the Spirit? Certainly. Is there victory in the healed body? Yes. Now, that's part of your prosperity. Is there a little will now and not be sick? Am I in health? That is really prosperous. I didn't know you could do that until I've lived it. And I would say he said, "Every believer has a voice and it is the voice of victory." Now, I was on the radio and I would start out that way. And then I had a little FM thing in my own studio and I had a couple of records there. So, and it did the theme song. And I was going along. I said, "You're not sick and you're not going to die." And I thought, "Wow, that is strong." And then later on, we got a written testimony. This woman was in the hospital. They had just, they had, the doctors had just left her room and said, "There's nothing we can do. You are going to die." She said, "My arm just went over to the radio and turned it on. I heard you now. Someone else had it tuned in to that, obviously." And she said, "I said, I'm not." So, she sent down to the, to the little deal downstairs and ordered a Bible up. So, she looked up the scripture references and then she said, "I went home, I'm perfectly healed. We paid off my husband's truck. And now the three of us have started a church. That's prosperity." So, let me ask you about that healing aspect too, because I believe in the supernatural. I believe God so heals today. I do also believe that there are instances though where, you know, we pray and ask God for healing. I'll give you a prime example. The whole reason I became a believer was because I was struggling with anxiety and depression. And Jesus supernaturally encountered me when I was 17. And I prayed, it said, "Jesus, if you're real, take away my anxiety and depression." He took it away, I haven't had it since that day. And I've prayed that same prayer for close family members, friends, loved ones, who struggle with it just as bad, if not sometimes even worse. And God doesn't seem to take their anxiety and depression. Well, He didn't say, you were talking to Him about you. You're talking about family members. Now, their will is involved. Now, if you're going to intercede for them, that's a different thing. But in your intercession and supplication, second chapter of the book of Timothy, first of all, prayers of intercession, so forth, which is good inside of God, our Savior who gave Himself as a ransom for all, just praying for Him and He's going to do it. Now, in some cases it might, if you just intercede long enough, the witness is stronger than the intercession because they know you're a testimony. But they're going to have to receive it on their own and you do it with the book. So, what would you say, then, like, for example, going back to that example of Paul, right? You know, he has that thorn in his side. That's dealing with him, you know, persistently. It seems to connect. What if you check and see what that was? What the thorn exactly was? No, what if you go, it was the care and worry about all the churches. That was the thorn in his side. Now, there are those that said he had sick eyes and all that. But he said, "I've been delivered from all of that." Where did he say that part? I'm just curious. I'd have to look it up. You just have to go and look it up in your concordance. But he said, "I have been delivered of all of these things." Now, here's what you have to understand about him, like in the book of Philippians. He used the word joy in one form of another 18 times, while he was in the worst prison you could possibly imagine. This man is a hero of heroes, brother. Yes, he is. But he said, he didn't say I am. He said, "I know how to be a beast. I know how to be a hungry." "I know how to have plenty. I know how." Didn't say I am. He said, "I know how." So you study his life and read everything. He's the same one when he wrote to the church in Rome about Abraham. He's the same one, let's turn over to Romans 4. What shall we say then, Abram? Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, has found. For if Abraham were justified by works, he had heard of the glory, but not before God. What says the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness, righteousness or righteousness. just right-standing with God. Now to him that works in the reward, not reckoned of the grace, but of debt, but to him that works not, but believes on him justifies the ungodly. His faith is counted for righteousness, even as David also described the blessedness of the man, who, whom God impudeth righteousness without works, saying, "Blessed are they that inquires are forgiven." His inequities are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. Now let's come over here to the, well, the 13th verse, for the promise, remember every time you see the word promise, there's blood involved somewhere another. For the promise that he should be heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void. The promise made of none effect because the law works worth, or there is, now look at this, therefore it is of faith that it might be by grace to the end that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is the faith of Abraham, who is the Father of us all. As it is written, I have made you a Father of many nations before him, or like him, whom believe God who quicken us the dead and call of those things to be not as though they were. I call my body well. I don't watch television at night. I still listen to Brother Hagen, even though he's never. I have a cell phone with no SIM card. I so I have him right there. That's the way glory that I got it. I was listening to it on tape. So I have it now. First words and last words, what I just used to do for instance, with Gloria, "Gonnait my love. I love the Lord, my God, with all of my heart, all of my soul, all of my mind, and all of my strength. I love my neighbor as myself, fulfilling all the law and the prophets." And John 13, 34 and 35, the Master said, "I give you a new commandment that you love one another, as I have loved you. And tonight, Father, my neighbor." And I'll tell you who my neighbor is right now. Joe Biden, they announced that he has prostate cancer. This is not politics. This is life, brother. And if they held that back and he dies of prostate cancer, somebody is really guilty. Well, I'm not the judge. The book is. So I pray in the spirit for his whole family to be delivered. Jesus said, "Send the labors across their paths with the message." And I'll pray that. As it is written, as it is written, tithing is absolutely essential for the prosperous life. Let's go back over there to the blessing of Abraham and the 28th chapter of Peter on me. Just so you know the way I do my Bible. And that one that I just took back, David Barton was doing television, me Monday, he said, "Where do you get a white highlighter?" We were on a book of Hebrews. And at one time or another, I had just highlighted everything in there. So that's my favorite book by five of us. He Hebrews is great. Oh yeah. It's great. I'm telling you. Did Paul wrote it? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, he mentions Timothy. And I mean, come on. Let me paraphrase it. In the book of Galatian. Let's go over there. We got to go over there. I mean, we're here. You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Econium, and at Lystra, which persecutions I endured, yet from them all the Lord rescued me. I pray over my food every day, according to the letter that the Apostle Paul wrote to his son, Timothy. I receive my food blessed and sanctified, according to the word of God in prayer. And I pray for my partners every meal. I pray for the midterms every meal. I pray for the protection. Now, I want you to notice this in chapter one, verse 14, "Prophet it in the Jews' religion, above many of my equals in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous." So he was a zealot of the traditions of my fathers. But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me as grace, to reveal his son in me that I might preach him among the heathen. Immediately, I confered not with flesh and blood, neither went I up to Jerusalem to them, which are apostles before me. But I went into Arabia and returned again, then three years, Mary at the tomb, thought it was the gardener. And he said, "Don't touch me." Well, what happened none that don't touch me, and this happened. He's the only one that said 500. No one has said that. When this happened, another scripture, in the body out of the body, I cannot tell God knows. So in Arabia, he went where Moses went, and he's set there. He didn't need a veil. He's a born again, Holy Ghost, baptized, tongue, tongue, and Christian. And when Jesus appeared to him, he said, "I've already shown him what he must suffer for my name's sake." Why? To prove that this new covenant works, to prove it beyond a shot of it out, he's the only man qualified, none of the apostles were qualified, because this man set at the feet of Gamelio. Gamelio's word is accepted, rabbi of rabbi's. This man was a rabbi of rabbi, but they hated him because of what he wrote. They did it right, stone him, they tried to chase him out. And then he got up and let him, stoning him wouldn't stop him. Shortest salvation prayer in history. Who are you, Lord? I'm Jesus that you persecute. What you want me to do. And in that, he was like Abraham. Whatever he told him, he did it. Now, when it comes to my understanding of this idea of prospering, right, is, you know, let's go back over that book of Deuteronomy now. We're back to Deuteronomy between eight. Yes, we need to go back over there because we need to find out where the financial part of it comes. In Deuteronomy 26 from 12 through 15, or all of the tithes, I have listened to the voice of the Lord my God and have done, according to all you have commanded me. Look down from your holy habitation from heaven and bless your people, Israel, and the land which you've given us, that you've sworn unto our fathers a land that flows with milk and honey. In the book of Exodus, he said, I'll have no poor in the Jubilee, the 50 years. In case you have poor, you send back everything they have. I won't have any poor people in my nation. Chapter 28, it will come to pass. But you're going to have to believe it. It will come to pass. If you will harken diligently. Now, that's different from just reading once in a while. This is spending time searching the scriptures. This spend time, our Father, which art in heaven, how it would be thy name. That kingdom come, that will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. I was praying that. And the Lord said, and I'd been praying for a good while studying, listening, and I'd just start praying, and he said, you look up. He said, what is your daily bread? He said, your daily bread is going to be to the nations. I don't really. I didn't know we were going to come to a place where we are now. Let me give you my own personal situation. We have aborted directors. They set my salary. I don't. They do. According to the IRS guidelines, and they don't let me be in a room when they do. And since the ministry has a airplane, if for some reason or other, that I use that airplane before God, but for vacation or something from a family, there is an internal revenue to a thing for that. And I pay taxes on it. The reason this ministry uses an airplane, as I was saying, is because we started out. And I was praying about this. We were just getting started. And we're there in Tulsa. And I came in from school. I said, glory, I have a disturbance in my spirit. Now, the man that owned that house we were renting, he was a lawyer. Well, I'm going to stay four more years and go to seminary. And I had him write the Kenneth Copeland Evangelistic Association. I'd already had him do the papers. So the Arkansas River, just one house and I was in the river bed there. I went down in there and prayed in the spirit to give a judge about a dark. And all I heard again was nations, nations, nations. So I started up out of there and then the Lord said, your wife is precious to me. I have given her to you. She is to you what temper is to steal. Well, I was in a metal shop in high school and you had to temper, I was making tools and you had to temper it or you break it. But this nation's thing came up. But I pretty well forgot about it. So school's out. I'm ready to go. I'm what I'm going to do here in this summer. I don't know. I'm just, and I sat down there. I hadn't a suit on. I had my Bible and I had my legal pad. And I said, okay, Lord, and down in my spirit, he said, I want you to go back to Fort Worth. Lord, he said, I'll take you. You know what happened to you in your hometown. I don't want to go back to Fort Worth. The greatest part of your destiny is their phone ring. Glory said, brother Nichols wants to talk to you. Well, he was pastor of Grace Temple Church. And so, Gloria and I and John and Kelly were rebabtized in water there in that church. So, he's in my pastor. When can you come to me for a meeting? I said, well, brother Nichols, I like to say I need to check my sketch, but I don't have one. Now, we had had a devastating car wreck at Marshall, Texas and Halloween night before. And the only car I had was an old worn-out Osmo deal that had about 90,000 miles on it when we got in. That's the only car I had. A nurse in this thing. So, of course, when I got there, I had another car drive. At least I was born a folk. I'd stayed there. We walked in there and my mother came in there and said, Gloria, I said, "Momma, you got any tapes?" Yeah, look in there. They had a thing there. The previous owner had a home screen. They just set this thing on, set this tape recorder on it, you know, and thinking about that being. There's a white box on the first side. You can write your own ticket with God. In the flip side, Paul's revelation. Kenneth, that's the first time I've ever heard anything like that in my life. I said, "Gloria, we have to have everything as men have." And that started that. And the teachings that came from both of these men. Now, I want you to notice this. This is very important the way this is worded. It will, it's it. What verse is that that you're in? Chapter 28, verse 1, "It will come to pass if you shall listen diligently to the voice of the Lord your God to observe and do all His commandments, which I command thee this day, that the Lord God will set you high above all nations on the earth." In God's mind, that's everybody in the nation. You can't have a nation without people. All these blessings shall come on you and overtake you. If you're harkening unto the voice, if you listen to me, bless shall you be in the city. Bless shall you be in the field. Let's stop right there. Let's talk about Job. He's a very wealthy guy. Oh, yeah. The only person that did what the, there wasn't the one but one sin. He will curse you to your face. And God said, "But you can't touch his line." His wife did it, not Job, and brought the devil down on the family. He did throughout this whole thing. There was a blessing wall around him. The head of protection? Yeah. That's the same blessing. He said, "You've blessed him. I can't get in there doing it." Blessing is more than just what you do when you sneeze. It is a power from God. You can't break it. You can't get through it. It's an invisible force. In many cases, it is translated very happy, but it takes diligence. It takes a concerted, diligent study of this book. Yeah. With the, like, okay, so this message of prosperity and abundance and things like that, I know you go to a lot of prisons and do a lot of prison ministry. I think that's another thing that's hard for me to, like, wrap my mind around for guys who are in prison. I've been to a state prison in Georgia where most of those men are in there with life without parole. Okay, let me ask you. What does he need to prosper? He just needs Jesus. That's his prosperity message. And to be strong enough to witness well, he's in there. I've done a lot of prison ministry with Mark Barber. It started really before that. And I won't go into all the details, but I was teaching in the prison. One of these men said, "Copeland, we like to play baseball in here." Yeah, I don't play me. I like baseball and stuff. These little short bats. Terrible. I said, "What did you have in mind?" He said, "A 36 inch Jo Jackson." And he said, "It has to be a little bit sluggier. I don't want anything else." And the other guy said, "Yeah, these crummy little bats we've been getting. There was a prison." I said, "And you go after it and faith." I said, "Get your bottles. Let's go to the Book of Matthews." See what the master said. And so we agreed. The prison truck came in there and had a big box. It wasn't on the list. He said, "I don't, I don't, I supposed to bring these here, but there's nothing labeled on the box. I don't know what's in there." One of them was a Louisville slugger, 36 inch Jo Jackson. To him, that's prosperity. Because he prayed about this thing. He had to learn half. Now, one of them had 700 years. In prison? Yeah. Wow. He walked me to the gate. Now Lawrence Harvey was warden in the Huntsville unit at that time. And two, by the way, I baptized a serial killer named Stephen Moran in the Barricana, J.S. Antonio. And he kidnapped a woman. He had killed 24 women. He kidnapped a woman, Margie Coat. She kept telling him she's only one to love him. And he told her, "If you don't shut up, I'm going to kill you." No, you don't kill her on a person. I said, "What can I put my tape in?" Yeah. Well, it was a tape. I mean, preaching. And he slammed on the brakes and said, "Who said that?" And I looked in the backseat. The voice said, "Steven, this is your last chance, son." She led him to the Lord right there. Well, I was on there as his spiritual advisor. Or they only had to convict him of one and they did. He said, "I don't, I don't want any reprieve." He said, "I only have one five-year-old boy." I don't want him to know I even existed in my terrible, terrible life. He let me know that he wanted me to meet him in Golden Colorado. I'm on his book there. He said, "I never heard of any of this. They're going home with it." But he said, "They're just clear in their books." I said, "Steven, you have time to become an expert on prayer." Well, yeah, he said, "I'll have time enough to do that." So I said, "I'm going to figure this." Now listen, you promise me you will pray about anything you do from now. I give you my word. So he went upstairs. He got up there and his sail door was a jar. And he told me, he said, "I've looked. I could take my sheets and drop that out over there and I'm gone." But I promised for the Copeland I'd pray. And he said, "I've got on my knees." And I said, "Father, in the name of Jesus, I fell asleep and I slept all night long." And he said, "I realized it was a trap. They were going to kill me on the other side of that wall because when they came in there and found me awake in my sail door, not shut." He said, "They look kind of stupid." Now fast forward. We were caged like this. There was a thing that wrote up here and I'm talking to him like this. And I asked him, I said, "Everything all right?" "Oh, yeah." He said, "Man, everything's fine." He said, "I'm fixing to go home." He said, "I'm hardly waiting." I said, "Steven, I won't tell you. Do me a favor." The scripture says that grace is enough. Yeah. Let me know with you. So since I was his spiritual advisor, I was as close as that wall right there, just a few feet away, a little railing here. I can see him. He looked down there at me and the lights were bright. And when that lethal injection started, it makes a bang. So you know you're going to be gone here in a few seconds. And he looked down there at me and two thumbs up and he's gone. Grace was more than enough. A serial killer. But I had to go to the book. When I baptized him in the gym, I mean, they had their pistols like this. You know, they have a tub there. I told him I was a gentleman. Everything would be all right. When he came up out of that water, I mean, to tell you, if there was, if any man's face I have ever seen was a glow, it was his. Something had to happen first. Number one, he gave me his word. I took it. Number two, he did what I asked him to do. He became an expert on prayer. And he's leading other people to the Lord and praying for their families and for their lives and for the, now they're prospering in the jail. So you can see for prosperity has a whole, look at it like this. It's a pie. And there's one slice in it here that's money. And it's money enough to take care of everything you need. It's money enough to be out of debt. I talked that at the minister's conference one year. And the pastor came back the next year and told me what happened. He said, I went home. And he said, wait is my wife and I pray in the congregation prayed. And we're going to, we're going to build this new sanctuary where I'm debt free. So he said, I went to the bank. I went in. And he said, I asked him if I could see so-and-so and they said, "Pastor, he's working on your loan now." And he said, "I went in there and oh, he grabbed me by the hand." And he said, "Pastor, he's looking good." He said, "Well, I just want to tell you we decided to do it debt-free." He said, "He changed, and he looked at me, and I will not repeat what he called me. You know you can't do this without us." He would have had that spirit in his life. It's because of their money that he borrowed. There's this word, "kind" up here, "K-I-N-E." You see it in what verse? In the fourth verse, the increase of your kind. That is the increase that's not kind, it's kind. Now there are foreign people. All the oxen? Everything you need, because this is El Shadow, everything you need, come to me. The increase of your kind, our kind here was aircraft, because the ministry started with a little single engine, Cessna. But even with that, some man asked me, he said, "Why don't you want an airplane?" I said, "Well, to go fast, why not?" And besides, that is safer than driving down the highway. And I go to places for a meeting, airlines don't even go there, and even this small four-place airplane. And I was flying it and getting into places and getting into, but I needed a twin-engine airplane because this is not an all-weather airplane, you understand why. Anyway, I needed two engines for safety and, well, speed and everything else. So I just traded it in on a Cessna 310, which was twin-engine airplane. But that's my kind. That's in the blessing now. So you're relating like the kind in Deuteronomy 28 today, your kind is an active flock. This room is my kind. I see where you're saying it. I need this. These mics are our kind, this is our kind today. We need money enough to pay for this. And money enough for you to have a debt on any of it. You don't go down the stairs and roll bugging by something like this on debt. This is an expensive piece of equipment. But your ministry doesn't need to have to go bar money at the bank to buy these things. That is to prosper in your ministry and to do it without debt. So you just take it a day at a time, whatever's necessary, and put back absolutely tired, go in not tired personally, the church tithes, the ministry tithes. We sow into other ministries and in by doing so over the years. The money that this ministry has saved by another owing is over $53 million. Bring the ministry purses, that goes up. That's prosperous. Now, there's something I want to get to you. He will establish you a holy people unto himself, that's verse 9. All the people of the earth shall see that you're called by my name, Seth the Lord. That is huge. He said to Solomon, "Build a place," Bill told David, "Build a place for my name. You won't do it, but your son will, a place for his name." E.M. I.C. is a place for his name. There's no debt on it. It's just the opposite of this, really. The Lord shall open unto you his good treasure, the heaven, to give reign upon your land in his season, to bless the work of your hand that you may lend to many nations and not borrow. Now, you'll make you the head and not the tail, that's prosperity. I don't want to be the tail, I want to be the head. But it was the head a little bit at a time, it didn't happen overnight, of course not. You should not be beneath. If you are going to listen to the commandments, then just turn this page. Here we go. Didn't run for 28-14. And thou shall not go aside from the words which are commanded this day to the right-hander of the left, or know the gods will serve them. But it shall come to pass, if you will not listen to the voice of the Lord thy God to observe and do all of his commandments and statues, which I command you this day, now he gets this, all these curses will come on you and overtake you. Curse shall you be in the city, curse shall be in the field. The Lord shall send, well, no, he doesn't send it. They're here. It really should be, he'll have to allow. Because you're not harkening, you're not listening to another word. Well listen what he said. Pursing, vexation, rebuke, and all you set your hand to do until you perish quickly because of the wickedness of the doings, whereby thou shall forsake me. Consumption, inflammation, extreme burning, no rain, look at this in 46. They shall be on you for a sign in the wonder, and upon your seed forever, because you serve me not the Lord thy God with joyfulness and with gladness of heart for the abundance of all things. Well, the 61st verse then just covers it. Also ever sickness and ever plague, which is not written in the book of this law, will the Lord bring upon you till you be destroyed. But we've been redeemed from it. That doesn't belong to us. For death, sickness and disease, spiritual life, born again filled with the Holy Spirit, living in divine health and prosperity. And the prosperous part, as it grows, is like this. Gloria and I went before the Lord. We had been on 700 radio stations, which was somewhat of a record. But then the Lord called us on television. We'd gone to our prayer cabin in Arkansas, and we stopped at Denys for breakfast. And I looked at her, and she kind of looked at me, and I said, "Are you thinking what I'm thinking?" She said, "You first." And I said, "Tell of us," and she said, "Yeah, how are we going to do it?" And I said, "I don't know how heavy I did." But she's going to take no money. So we began to write out our agreement, covenants with one another. We have never in a partner letter ever put any kind of a price in there except one time when we went on that television. Our whole ministry budget, the year before, was a little over $375,000. And I put in there, for the price of a pair of tennis shoes, $12.95, we see inflation as didn't care that. We can do this together. That's one and only time. Our radio bill was $400,000 a month, the next year, well, taking care of it. All of this has been between the blessing and the cursing. It does good to read all of this and then read it in the amplify it. And I mean, the diseases themselves are actually listed there. So with this prosperous message that we're bouncing around through Scripture and reading about, you mentioned that, like, "Oh, for the man in prison, prosperity looks different than maybe the man that grows up in Georgia than the man that's in Africa and the person in China." Now, I think you and I can agree, true prosperity is Jesus Christ. You gain the South-East, I mean, that, I love that you said that. My mind has such the hardest time wrapping around, you know, what if God doesn't always give people what they want, what if God doesn't always do that? You know, when did He say He wouldn't do that? Well, when I'm reading the Scriptures, for example, like when I look at the Gospels, right, when we look at Jesus sending out the 72, for example, now He's getting them to learn to trust Him. He said, "Don't bring a knapsack, don't bring a tunic, don't bring an extra pair of shoes." They're working for Him, though. He's right, He wasn't a poor man, He wouldn't have had a treasure. And He was stealing out of that bag, and Jesus was only wanting to know it. If Peter didn't want it, I think He was trying to kill it. He had a garment that had no seams in it, the madmanic adera, clothed in His right mind. Where did they get the clothes in the book of Mark? He went across there, this man was in the tombs, night and day, he was a cutter, naked. But then He wanted to go with him, He was clothed and in His right mind. Where did He get those clothes? And He's going to call the man to preach. You know what I'm looking like this? Are you talking about the man in Mark V with the Legion? Yes. Yeah, He was naked, cutting Himself. Yes. Naked. But then He was clothed and in His right mind. Well, you don't put a man in His right mind turning him loose, naked to go preaching to the Coppulus. He was clothed. Jesus clothed Him, He prospered Him, He's a preacher. And He told Him to tell them what great things and what compassion God had had upon Him. So what He preached, same thing. So the basis then of prosperity, He goes with the Book of James. What good does it say be warmed without corresponding action to faith? Here it is. Be blessed. Believe Him naked. In their arcases, like a medical doctor, Dr. Bill Reed, powerful. He was operating on a baby. and it died. He just held his hand over that little baby and said, "And the little baby came to life. It changed his life absolutely forever." So for the person that, let's say someone hears this prosperity message, right? They're listening, they're trying to apply, they're trying to read the scriptures, they're doing the things, nothing's changing. Maybe they have a sickness, sickness isn't going. The finances aren't changing. Is that like a problem on the person or is that what it is? Don't quit. Absolute necessity to tithe. Oh, that's old covenant. Hebrews is in the new, right? Hebrews is in the new. Hebrews chapter seven. There's an entity in Triton first, John, and we have known and believed the love that God has for us. He believed God loves you. Oh, yes, Brother Copeland. I don't know. What are we redeemed from? San Agues. Stranger from the Covenants of Promise in the Book of Ephesians. An alien from the commonwealth of Israel, without hope and without God in the world. Are you going to get healed? Oh, Brother Copeland, I sure hope so. The right kind of hope is necessary because faith is the substance of things I hope for. So what's my hope? Brother Copeland, you're going to get healed? Absolutely. How do you know? My hope is strong. Therefore, I have faith. I fully expect it. What if it doesn't happen? I missed it. Not God. I missed it. Here, out here. Or there's some little something I've got something against somebody that forgive those who have any old against you, the 11th chapter of Book of Mar. Anyway, I want you to see this in the Book of Hebrews in the 7th chapter. Without all contradiction, the less is blessed of the better. That's chessed. When you see the word loving kindness, that's chessed is the way you pronounce it. Chessed, there was a British missionary and gave it to me like this. He said, "I was headed back to London." And he said, "That's somebody I want to make go see this, this native guy." And so he said, "I went." And I told him, "Hessed." If you see the big elephant and the little elephant and the big elephant raises out of here, you get them about to get a taste of his. But the little elephant gets exactly what his mama gets. "Equal." "Let this mind be a new which was also in Christ Jesus." We thought it not robbery to it. "Go equal with God." Where were joy and errors with Christ? And he said, "Come, come, come everybody. The God wants us to touch fingers." That's the way they made covenant. They would slit their fingers like this and they became blood brothers. And you walk up to the bank. And that's the way there's no way that there's going to be anything wrong here because we're brothers. Here men that die receive tithes. But there he receives them of whom it is witness that he's alive. So we take our tith. Let's go to March 10th. This is where people get all out of shape. Verse 17. "When he was gone forth in the way, there came one running and kneeled to him." So now get this picture. This is the rich young ruler. Oh, I'm glad you turned to this. I had the one in Luke bookmark because I think this passage is the one. It's so precious. And he asked him, "Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" Jesus said unto him, "Why do you call me good?" There's none good but one. And it's God. You know the commandments. Do not commit adulterate. Don't kill. Don't steal. Don't bear false witness to fraud. Not only your father and mother. He left four of them out. There's a reason why. He answered and said, "All of these I have observed from my youth. Jesus, beholding him loved him and said unto him, 'One thing you lack, go and sell whatever you have. Give to the poor and you'll inherit heaven. Take up the cross and come follow me.' He offered him a apostleship and he couldn't take it because he's going to take care of his needs from now on. I don't care how much money he has." And he was sad at the saying and went away grieved. He had great procession. Now, after he's gone, he answered the question, looked around about his disciples and said, "How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God, not that they have them that the riches have them." He turned away from him. He didn't have to leave. He could have just said, "Well, that makes me mad enough to spit, but I ask you and I'm going to stay with you till I find out." He just left. He loved this money more than he loved that. He really did. That's the danger. That is the danger. Anyway, listen to the rest of this. His disciples were astonished at his words. Well, they sure weren't poor or that I mean they decided at that. How hard it is for them that trust and riches to enter into the kingdom of God is here for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, then for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they were astonished out of measures saying among themselves, "Who then can be saved?" Jesus looking away. Now the word saved, sozo, includes healing. It means soundness. It includes healing, prosperity, saved. Save what, poverty. Save what? Say, Jesus looked upon Himself with men as impossible not with God. For God, all things are possible. So my question is, who am I truly with? With all of my heart, all of my soul, all of my mind, all of my strength, all of my wealth, everything I have, it's His. Look at this. There's no man that has left house, brethren, sisters, father, mother, wife, children, lands, for my sake and the gospels. But shall receive a hundredfold now in this time, house is, brethren, sisters, mothers, children, lands, with persecutions, and in the world to come, eternal life. Well, certainly it's going to be with persecutions. The one thing that devil fights is his financial ability to do whatever God tells you to do. He fights it. He writes dirty books about you, which I have experienced. The Lord said, don't read about yourself in any publication anymore, including social media, and there are some that, you know, they put in there all of this property, everything on it, you know, it's worth any work close to what it says. But anything the devil can do to stop the money. I had brother Roberts tell me. He said, if the money is choke, check your love. I think, yeah, I think you mentioned earlier, and then we'll take a break. You mentioned something earlier, you were like, that was the danger, you know, the man loved his money more than he loved God. You know, that's why it walks away. And I think, I think the, someone said that it was actually part of us. I don't really know where in history they said that anyway, go ahead of us. You know, you mentioned that the dangers that he loved this money more than he loved God. And I think that's one of the reasons why it's hard for me personally to wrap my mind around that prosperity message is because it has a lot to do with the finances. And you know, we talked about it. It's not necessarily the dollar amount in someone's bank account that makes money sin for or not. It's the love of money. You know, there are people that don't have money that love their money more than they love anything else. But I think that's why it's hard for me personally to really wrap my mind around these things that we're talking about because I've personally seen and I bet you have two seen money destroy people. And it rocks their world. And so like how can, how can we, you know, how can we as believers show people who don't know Jesus at all that that he is the prize? You know, because that can be attractive, you know, having the benefits of blessing. I mean, the reality is blessing as a blanket statement. As believers, we get to be blessed in any form of fashion. That's a promise. I had a Lord and I were at a target store one day. And this this card, this tar is just squealed. Brother Copeland, brother Copeland, brother Copeland, the Lord told me he would be here. She had two small children in a bag. I walked over there to the car. I said, what is it? She said, I'm a school teacher. My home has become more valuable in the bank. She said, I'm only behind two payments. And the bank won't renew my loan. What do I do? I said, what's your name and phone number? So we checked out her story and paid off her house. That would have really hurt My heart, if I'd have said, "Sister, I wish I could help you, but I was so much money out, I just can't do that." We have done that time and time and time and time again. And there's a particular restaurant that's, it's a national chain, whether it's the Applebee's restaurant. And there's a particular one in this area, and we haven't been there in some time. But we had an Applebee's ministry. An Applebee's ministry, as he got it. It got out, you know, that we would help people like that, and we did. And there were some cars involved in it, that we helped people, and this one man was a former Marine, and Gloria wrote a book, "God's will for you." And in that book is God's will, His prosperity. So he read it. I mean, he read it over and over and over again. And he came in there to me one day and he said, "Brother Copeland, would you lay your hands on me?" He said, "I really don't feel very good." They had a little daughter that was very, very shy. And I would do this to her and she'd come over there. And finally, she got where she'd come sit by me. He said, "Her school teacher called me in and said, 'You don't have to do some of this girl ears.' Why?" He says Kenneth Copeland is her personal friend. He said, "Well, he is now what?" "Oh." So he just bought a new truck. He died of cancer, broke his wife, he had custody of the time. So we put it together, we paid off the truck, we paid for his home-going service, and started having his mother. "Well, praise God." "That's what it's all about." Today's sponsor for our episode is my company, Praise Energy Energy with a Higher Purpose. We've been developing this company for over a year so that people know that the energy drinks and the hydration that are being put out are coming from a gospel-centered faith-driven business where you know the heart behind the company, the people behind the company, love Jesus and want to see everyone know him as well. There's so many brands out there online that push different agendas and doctrines and why support those businesses when you can support people who actually want to see the gospel go forth. Our energy drink has a hundred milligrams of caffeine that comes from green tea extract and we use monk fruit, organic cane sugar and stevia to sweeten the drink to offer the cleanest sweetener possible. Furthermore, every energy drink, electrolyte package and all of our products are prayed over before it hits our website or even offered in stores. We even have a QR code feature where you can scan our drink and put in a prayer request and within 24 hours a physical person from our team will have prayed for your prayer. If you want to know when we go live and offer our products for availability, go to drinkprays.com, sign up today so you can be the first to know when we launch, go to drinkprays.com, sign up today so you know when we launch energy with a higher purpose. We talked a little bit earlier about that Mark chapter 11 passage, if he'd changed everything. And I really appreciate you, you know, fixating on this passage because I think when it comes to like- This was working all the time, I turned exactly to that every time, every time. So I think for me personally, one of the hardest things for me when it comes to this prosperity message, when I look, I mentioned to you earlier about my coworker Mitch who was, had little to no money, but he was obsessed with money. And I believe that he would always say, Bryce, you know, I pray to God and I ask God for money. And if God gives me money, I'll believe in him. And that obviously never happened. And so he looks at me and he goes, well, God's not real. And I said, well, you know, Mitch, maybe God can't trust you with money. And that's why he's not giving you with money. And so that's why for me, it's a little, I come cautious to this prosperous message because I'm like, well, you know, when we're faithful, little God can trust us so much with everything. Right. And I don't want someone to perceive it as, oh, I believe in this Jesus just to get the benefits of the kingdom like we, I want Jesus, Jesus is the prize. And whatever he has in store for me, that's what I want. Everything has to be based on this book, a diligent study of this book, like in the book of Hebrews. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. The classic amplified says the title deed, the things we hope for, that you can't see that it has not been revealed to the physical senses. Well, I'll believe it when I say it, that was Thomas's problem. Jesus said, Thomas quit being faithless. Some had great faith, the centurion. Some had a little faith. Some had no faith. But the Lord just dealt with it. And so we have to deal with it. I have control where my household is concerned. I don't have control where yours is concerned. All I can do is witness to you, based here. Do you think that's a common misconception about the prosperous message is they, they see you preach it. They see you reaping the benefits of it. So they think, well, if I go to brother Copeland, then my life's going to change because I go to him. Do you think that's a common misconception? Like it seems to me what you're saying is, if you want, it appears like what you're talking about is you, if you want to experience this prosperous message, you have to take it for yourself. Well, if they come to me, I'm just going to show them what I know. Now there's been times that people have come to me. And the Lord say, you do this. There's been time people came to me and the Lord said, you let them alone, I'm dealing with them over this. You can just go to the book and show them. And so if I have the opportunity, I'm going to take it to witness. And as we were talking earlier, I baptize in the water a serial killer. Could God save a man like that? Well, certainly. And I won't go into all of that. But here's the thing. I have authority over my household. But I don't have authority over years. If you come to me for help, we're going to sit down and we're going to pray. And we're going to get this book out. And we're going to discuss the problems and see what the situation is. Now in the Bible, when it talks about how the one area to test God in is with your finances, do you believe that that scripture is saying, when I test God with my money, I get money back. Is that what you believe that is saying? What do you believe about that passage? Tell it to me again. You know, the Bible says that the one area we test God in is with our money. It's that over there in the book of Malachi. I believe so. Yes, sir. Turn over there to it. And so when we go to, when we hear that in scripture, like, do you believe that that is saying, like, if I'm testing God with my money, right? Does that mean that as a believer, they get money back? Or does that mean that they? I don't ever test God with my money. I don't even know what that means. I believe that this is what I believe that means, right? I'll give you an example. Like I, when I, God called us to Los Angeles, California in 2022, and I had never even stepped foot in Los Angeles, California, much less. I know that. I don't know. That's the most expensive place in the country, or Manhattan, either one. And so I, so when God called me there, I'm like, well, well, God, I'm 18. I can't even afford to live there. Don't know what that looks like. So I said, I'm going to act out an obedience. God, I'm going to move there because you called me there. That's, that's what Abraham did. Every time that's what Abraham did. I think one of the, the appeals and, and one of my cautions about that prosperous message shoes, I think there are a lot of people that could say, oh, well, I'm going to test God in that area, right? You know, it may not make sense in the corner to make that decision. I'm going to do it. There's a place in the chapter where it says that, but in testing him, you do it by faith. Now does that mean that someone gets money back, like when they test him and that? Well, let's, let's turn over here to Philippians chapter four. The answer is right there. Now, you remember this church was a convict church. Now, here we're back at that passage, 411. Now, let's back up before that. This is so important. Number, verse four, rejoice in the Lord always, and again, I say rejoice. Let your moderation be known unto all men, the Lord is at hand. Be careful or worry. Don't care. Be careful for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with Thanksgiving, huh? With Thanksgiving. What you say long enough will finally get down in your heart and begin to control your life. I had said over and over. I don't like exercise. I just hate it. I don't want food with it. I'm all suited up. I'm an obeyed God and I got in there and I grabbed that thing and I said, I just hate this. Now, oh God, forgive me. I love it. I got on the treadmill. He said, "Kenneth, I sacrificed my body for years. Now, you're sacrificing yours for mine." That's what he was after all the time. It didn't have to do with just my body. It's to keep me going. It's to keep me moving. Finally, grab brethren. Watch whatever things are true. Whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely can be true but not lovely. Whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report. If there be any virtue and if there be any praise, think on these things. Those things which you have both learned and received and heard and seen in me, do it. In the God of Pete, Shalom, nothing missing, nothing broken, shall be with you. Now, Shalom is Hebrew for prosperity. Think about this. The Lord says, "Now I want you to, I want you to sow so much into that ministry." He asked me to do it so something is missing in my life. I go to Mark 10. He's going to replace it 10 for a hundred for some 10s, some 30s of the money. Depends on what my faith and what my life is. Don't ever let it be said. Ever that God has ever put any kind of a sickness or a disease on somebody to teach them something. Book of James. Don't you dare do that. Now, if something happens and he teaches you from it, that's different. He didn't do it. Yeah, God doesn't cause suffering. I think God can allow. Well, there's some things he has to. He has to allow things. Yeah, he has to. That's where the good character comes from. Yeah, where the good character comes from. Producers endurance. So you pray and you don't listen and you have a quickening in your spirit all to wait 30 minutes and you don't. You have a car wreck. Why'd you let that happen to me? Did you ever have a hunch? That's your spirit trying to get hold of you. Man, I probably ought to not go right now. You better listen to that. Here's what the Lord said to me. Don't ever underestimate a delay. Hmm. He's always on time. But if he says, hold up here for a few seconds. You better hold up and let whatever problem get by that he already knew about. Instead of pushing in your wife to get ready and we got to go now. The reason I'm saying that because I know some things with this actually happen. And, uh, man, my name is Roy Hicks. It was overseer the four square church. He actually did. He started interviews. Everyone he interviewed said, yeah, if I'd awaited a little bit, that wouldn't happen. Or if I hadn't turned in that direction, that wouldn't have happened. Now, that doesn't mean you beat a late work every morning. My dad said, if you're on time, you're 15 minutes late, you get there before everybody. That's the reason he never had a. He always had a job during the Great Depression. Never was without a job during the Depression. So, let's continue to read here. Finally, brethren, whatsoever, now, those things which you have seen both and learned and received and heard and seen in me do and the God of peace will be with you. Now, I want to say this to young preachers. How many of them can say that? The integrity of any person. I don't care whether they're in the ministry or not. The integrity of the written Word and the absolute integrity and understanding what a quality decision is and then write it down based on his Word. And if you'll write your Word down based on his Word, he'll honor your Word as you honor his. A quality decision is one based on this book about which there is no more argument and from which there's no more to retreat. And I step across that line of faith and this is where we're going. But anyway, I need to get over here and we will answer the question that is brought up in the first place. While you're flipping, I'm thinking of Matthew 6 right now, when Jesus talks about, hey, you know, kind of hinting at what a little bit of Paul's writing. Don't be anxious about anything. Oh, yeah, it's God. God clothes the lilies of the field and their beauty and they don't try. And he feeds the birds of the year with them out trying, you know, how much more will he provide for you? And that gives me peace as a believer with stepping out and big decisions. And first Peter, chapter 5, it helps when making big decisions. Cash the holy you care over on him. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. A lot. I think my biggest, the thing that's that's hard for me to understand or the cautious thing again, like with that prosperous message is I think to people because we're human beings and we have that human nature, the thing that's more attractive to people about this prosperity, health and wealth message is those things rather than Jesus. And so, you know, when I, when I think back at that time, I moved to L.A. like I didn't step out because I wanted some benefits and blessings. I stepped out because I wanted Jesus himself. And that's what he told you. And I'm trusting him. That's just in that, that his way is better. That's it. But then why would a farmer go out in the field and produce a crop and then not take any of it because because he didn't want to go against God. Let me tell you, my spiritual father, old Robert, they were itinerant preachers. I mean, they didn't have any place to live. And he said they were in a, he was passing the church and in an Oklahoma. This is before the, they really healing miracle ministry started. And he wrote a book called Seed Time in Harvest. But anyway, they, she said, "Oral, you get a house for me. I'm taking these kids." He said, "You wouldn't do that." She said, "You just try me." Well, then the wedding is not service. He had been paid his $50. And he said, "I don't know what came over me." I just said, "Anybody got a hat?" And he said, "I started it. I put my, our, our $50 in that hat." And he said, "I got home." And she said, "Oral, you didn't do that." He said, "You think it is cold in January?" He said, "But he said, "I got a knock on the, on the deacon's door at three o'clock in the morning." And I got up and answered it. He said, "It was the wealthiest farmer in the county." He said, "Oral, I'm ashamed of myself that I didn't put anything in that, that offering." He said, "I've been playing the stock market. I'm about to lose my farm. But I know I'm a farmer. And to get a crop, I'm going to have to sow a seed." He said, "I had this in a can and I went home and I dug it up and there's four $100 bills." Brother Rubber said, "We had never seen a $100 bill." He said, "I just went in there." And I just fanned that out. This is our harvest on that 50. Well, that's the fourth chapter of the Book of Mar. The sower shows the seed. And it never did talk anything about the sower. It always talked about the soil upon which it fell. So right here, well, I think in that end, here is where it is. And that chapter of Mark and Mark chapter four, those seeds that he could see it, Jesus explains that parable. He wasn't necessarily talking about money. He was talking about the gospel going forward. Sure. But how does it go forward? Goes by people delivering the good news. That's right. But they don't have, they can't do it for nothing. That's the reason he said some 30, some 16, some 100 fold. But he shows why some had entered into their heart. They let it fail. The thorns choked them out. That persecution arises for the words sake. But here it is. Verse 15, "You Philippians know also that in the beginning of the gospel, I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving. But you only. For even in Thessalonica, you sent once again to my necessity, not because I desire a gift. But I desire fruit that may abound to your account. I have all and abound. I am full, having received of Epiphyrodotus the things which were sent from you, an odor of sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, well pleasing to God. My God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus." Now, let's go back over here. God provides for our needs. And that's what you read here at the end of that Philippians 4. God providing for our needs. And I think even for me, when I hear that prosperous message, and I think a lot of people that are listening to it, the attraction is they think, "Oh, I'm going to get the things that I want." What about the 23rd John? For the Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. We shouldn't want. We like nothing with Jesus. That's right. My wants. It depends on what I want and why. The apostle said, "He gives us richly all things to enjoy." Well, I enjoy motorcycles. But I don't spend all my time messing with those things. I spend thousands of hours doing this other than messing around with an aeroplane or the motorcycle. But I enjoy them. That's a genuine question I had. You know, that's something that like I struggle with is understanding like I'm pretty I'm an extreme person me personally like I'm all in on something when I love it and so I'll come to the What is that what is the fine balance? You know what I mean? What's the balance of? Of not being excessive like where where do you draw the line personally? Where do you find hey? This is something I enjoy versus this is something that maybe sit on the throne of my heart Let's take a pastor for instance the whole thing you you keep we you Keep him humble will keep him broke I'd like to know where that is in the gospel it isn't in there You don't muzzle the oxen that treads out the corn and you and you you you study these covenants and why they're there and what they say I've seen this happen. I'm sad to say you don't pay the pastor so much money it hurts the church and You don't keep him down enough that it hurts him and his family so you set guidelines From this and you don't have a deacon possessed church. You have a god ordained Church and you have a board of directors not a board of trustees. Well, you could call them that I get what you mean when you say that. Yeah, I'm ordered to record yes and On our compensation they are men that have no way of receiving anything from us financially now everyone else in there They have something to say about it, but these men that are on that compensation committee then they will meet They take all of the finances of the ministry They take everything in account all of it and have since day one they take everything that has to do with anything in the account of the ministry that's first what I call the rolling stock we didn't build the out here Well the robber's built a parotaur. We built a chapel first building on a proper fifteen hundred acres land On band and airport. We didn't put this airport back into operation for years and years before we ever touched it That's not for the money. Well We were keeping our airplanes somewhere else. That's fine. We get a car and drive But you you have these men where you sit down and you discuss it You take the finances of the ministry. You take all of this put together. What is this part doing? What is this department doing? We had a worldwide communion service one time. A man by the name Thomas Clyde McGee and every time you use your satellite in your car, you say thank God for Tommy boy Born again Holy goes baptized believer with a slide rule Put that first satellite out there 24,000 miles and made it in the orbit of the sir Do you ever hear the blackwood brothers quote to it? I mean if they were doing a concert I mean Christians would come from all over to see the His wife was a blackwood. Oh wow and they call them birds And a man by the name of Halverson would get down in front of Clyde and he'd say birds Birds come out birds Clyde you haven't yet. Yeah, I know what I mean birds And he said kind of that get hung up and I go home. I said baby. It all less pray and The Lord will give him the answer He put the first satellite out there So I call him I said Clyde the Lord has directed us to have a worldwide communion service and Can you do that? Yeah? I said how he said I don't know, but you know Philippians for you know The little plastic cups. We do communion with you. Yeah, but every time you think you say thank you brother Clyde Rigly did that for us in the Fort Worth Convention Center We had 15,000 people in there. Wow, and they did that so that we didn't have to use glasses It resulted in a six million dollar deficit. I waited till the middle of the night. I got a board meeting the next day Best meeting we've ever had Best year, we've ever had TV 24,000 or six million in debt and I said He said The TV department is the one you carried You didn't roll the car that over on me Well, you could think I mean you got to have what you got the bill and then that's six million it was in record time and For the first time in history we paid our TV bill with one check and we've never been behind anymore I'm not carrying that anymore But we had worldwide Communion It was just a magnificent thing. So but all of it is based right here Well, I appreciate you opening it up with me and going through and listen to listen to this Now here it only is let me ask you some the fruit in the garden correct What do you think it was? Well, they say it was the knowledge of good and evil. I mean, what was the fruit? Like what actual fruit do I think it was what people always describe it as an apple. That's the basic what did they dress with leaves It was the fig tree and oh, I'm telling you he upset. I mean he upset everybody if they don't let cold They went their way. I found the cold time and And certain of them stood there when you're going to do it at least like he said and with many Garments in the way and others cut off bows and they went and was crying Hosanna blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord blessed is the kingdom of our Father David come within the name of the Lord Hosanna. Oh, you tell my listen. He really caused a lot of trouble Then and I like to think that like this too. They weren't worshiping the the cold. He was the carrier I'm the cold And he's riding my back seeing a fig tree a far off having leaves He came if happily he might find anything their own The fig tree and the leaves are supposed to be there at the same time Now nothing but leaves for the time of figs was not yet Well the leaves were there in too early And he answered and said to it no man he'd fruit of you here after forever and his disciples heard it now He had gone into the temple the night before and came out and Waited till the day to do anything he went back to Bethany And he did all the is it not written my house to be called a nation of house of prayer You've made it a den of thieves. So now when he cursed that fig tree he didn't look back. He just headed to Jerusalem He didn't pay attention to Peter calling remembers said master or rabbi behold the fig tree this fig tree paid the price for that one in the garden Praise God Whether it did or not. I like it looked good to me which you cursed as withered away I mean this thing just was nothing but the fig tree Provided the opportunity have faith in God the reference says have the faith of God for barely I say unto you This is a whosoever Shall say unto this mountain be thou removed and be thou cast into the sea and shall not doubt in his heart But shall believe that those things which he says to come to pass he shall have whatsoever he says and in he did it Therefore I say unto you what things so ever you desire when you pray believe that you receive them and When you stand praying forgive if you have owed against any That your father also in heaven forgive you your trespasses if you don't forgive neither will your father forget heaven to forgive you And that's it we stop pray and listen you and That's what built this ministry this and the other verses around it. Gloria and I our family John Terry George Kelly Both sides of our family honored our fathers and mothers all the days of our life and Jeremy is pestering a church up in Green River Falls Colorado When he was three years old. He I wore a vest in Pokemon. He'd get me a bitch. Put your wife. I peach He'd been preaching all of his life this then Is the bottom line a book of Covenant's It's the Holy Bible and this is Just as much God As God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. Do you care if I pray for us really quick? Is we could please do Jesus. Thank you so much for today. Today God. Thank you for allowing Brother Kenneth to spend time with me and and us have a conversation about his upbringing his life Jesus and and and this this prosperity message What what it looks like navigating it the hard conversations got thank you for this day Thank you for breath and suffer lungs Lord, which your face continue to shine upon us. We love you Jesus. It's in your name. We pray amen