74. The Jake Barraclough

Hi listeners, a quick note. Our chat with Jake Barclay was recorded on February 17th. We do lose Jake's audio right at the very end while we're wrapping up. But with that said, you're in for over an hour of brilliant conversation. We're so thrilled Jake could join us on Runners FM and Joy. You're listening to Runners FM. Alright, welcome guys to yet another episode of Runners FM #74 to be more specific. I am back in Stockholm after spent the weekend in Barcelona. And on the other side of this call I have one special guest that we are coming back to in a moment and also Victor who is back in Santa Pola. How are you doing Victor? I've had a good energy as high in this house today. We have Ben Felton nailing a good run. And then we have John Lucas running crazy 6120. So yeah, it's a good energy in the house right now. Oh yeah, I can imagine. Well, must be. Must be so nice to be over there right now. But as I mentioned, we have a special guest on this episode. He is someone who has sort of redefined what high mileage means in modern distance running. And many or probably all of you listeners know who he is. He regularly stacks 250 to 300 kilometer weeks. And somehow makes it look almost casual. But Jake Barracklaw isn't just a guy who runs a lot and fast. He's also one of the most visible high mileage athletes online documenting the process in real time. Welcome to Runners FM Jake. How are you doing? Lovely stuff. Cheers for having me. Yeah, I'm excited. Get chatting. I listened to your podcast quite a bit. So this will be good fun. Chris, I remember you said it on the some kind of Instagram shot we had. And I didn't do it. I didn't knew that you did it. So that's that's very cool because I thought that where you were more high mileage didn't care so much about the scientific stuff. But we can go back to that, I guess later on. When I guess you're running 20 hours a week, you got to fill that with a whole lot of podcasts. I've got about 40 on rotation. I cover every angle of the running game. So yeah, you're a good part of that. That makes sense. Yeah, we feel honored to be to be one of those podcasts truly. But I feel like free. I think like because Jake, you're by far our most frequently asked guests, then especially when you were in Stockholm, everyone was like Jake Barracklaw, if it's in Stockholm, you guys have to have him in a podcast. But I think like most people I would say that you listen to our podcast know who you are. So I think maybe we could just start with I think like something that I'm interested in is like I don't know so much before like how you were a Surrounder before you moved to Japan kind of what was your PB's what did you do? I know that you were in America, for example, can you just take us through all that's like where you were as a runner before going to your back. So it was probably what was that two and a half years ago when I moved here at the time. So I had I run through that the key one to 5K 15 or no, I just broken 15 actually that was the last race before I went out. I'd run a 14 57 that was on the track. That's actually the last ever track race I've done as well. And I'm never going back until you that that's my track career complete. That was my five 10k was maybe 31 44 I think half marathon 72 something and a marathon 238. So yeah, a little bit of a change I guess now. 100% that is yeah because I've been I was I was visiting your world athletics to just a couple months ago just see like one what Jake did before what kind of numbers he had before he moved to Japan, but that is there's some crazy improvement. It's a little deceptive because at the time I so only started taking running properly seriously when I was about 25 so now 28 is really been you like three three and a half years or so. Before then I was running but a lot of those TVs are from I think a lot of MMA so it was funny actually listen yet to because your background is pretty different as well like I think we came into running pretty late. And then yeah it was obviously a background in MMA and I dropped about 20 kg of muscle suddenly it's like I'm just running things easy now. Yeah I find it funny listen to you back through it. Yes same for us to I feel like we're we started late in our lives like phrase X football player I'm an X hockey player so 100% lot of things are common for sure. And I guess it means the improvement. There's more room for improvement in a way compared to guys that have if you started at like 12 13 the training like a yuck of in your rits and type training all the way through I guess you probably peak earlier and then I'm hoping that yeah I'm still going strong at like 3540 and get just pushes everything back. Yeah I definitely think it feels like on your profile you're kind of saying profil as a fraying as well I think you're with more like slow twitch and yeah I'm turning 4040 here in a month so I think you're probably can nail some more years for sure for sure yeah yeah I've got the cart was build on the no fast twitch purely just like grindy stuff so I yeah the longest that's definitely for me very very good something that I always wonder when I've been looking at your YouTube and stuff. It's always these like people say that we are on 280 kilometers a week but I always been interested like how these kind of weeks look like are you scheduled by yourself now or do you have anyone like helping you or take us through a little bit of the Japanese model I'm not very familiar with it at all I have to say. Yeah I've been it depends a little bit so recently I've been training with some like top runners like we've one of these teams so going on training camps actually actually where I'm going later this week so that will be as a fair bit of flexibility with like the sessions and stuff I'll always if I can jump in with someone I'll pick that over doing a solo sessions I'm not tied to like it's got to be this specific session because I feel like I'm like a super responder to group training so it doesn't matter what the session is if there's a lot of things that I can do. The session is if there's some of us doing it and it's similar kind of level to like where I want to be running I'll jump in with them but the sort of framework in terms of like feeling in the mileage and all of that I do all of that myself like plug it in I quite like that just I've got super old school and Excel spreadsheet where I just each week like plug in the sort of key sessions I might I'll plan out a fair bit like leading up to for example London marathon or whatever I'll be plugging in the months before. Where I want the key workouts to fall roughly what it's going to look and then each week as it comes to it you're I'm playing around a little bit depending on how things and go recently what races I've got if I'm jumping in sessions with people and then it's in terms of like the base structure I'd say probably on average like if you go like a rough week like if I'm peaking yeah like we're talking like closest to the 28 EK it might be 2 to 3 triple days and I think that's what I'm going to do. 2 to 3 triple days and then all the rest of the doubles and maybe something like one sort of speed session for me speed is like 10k pace I tell really ever go under 10k I mean that's quick enough I'm like yeah if I'm working at 10k base that's my speed work and then probably something longer half marathon marathon specific type session and then there's no I've actually gone away from the sort of classic you know like one long run away. A lot of people I think especially in Europe do like Sunday long run Saturday long run there's none of that really out here it's more you might do a long run sort of where it fit like maybe once every two weeks some people do it like once a month. Actually funny enough this entire marathon blog for the last 2 months I'm not done a single long run so I've had this little back issue which meant that running anything more than about 30k's a nightmare like my back keeps tightening up so almost I've been training very different to how I would before recently and training almost more like 10k half marathon and hoping it translates to marathon but yeah we'll see I think I'm a little scared going in without that. Backbone of like knocking out 50k runs 40k runs which is a classic back in the day. It's so many questions to ask my wife is always she's Australian and she thinks I'm very bad at with with guests because I ask 15 questions in one question so I felt that that was what I was going to do now as well because I probably had six questions in my head now when you're when you were speaking but that's why we have free more of so host these days because I'm not going to be a little bit more. I'm not going to be a little bit more of a host these days because it's much better with being structured and being good with asking questions. And I'll follow those around I can just chat as well forever so interrupt me at any point if you want to fire a question away because yeah I can have a little ramble for days. So from my understanding you have like sort of like a general idea of how a week structure looks like with a couple of key sessions but then when you get to the facility let's say you can always like kind of adjust to whatever the group is doing at that day is that great. Yeah I like especially recently I'd say the last probably last year it was like 95% solo everything. because there's a bit of a nightmare in between where especially in Japan you've got the best sort of amateur runners, maybe they're like, I don't know, 217, 215, and then you've got the pro guys, but they're all so closed off that I was in that gap but I just had to solo everything and I hate doing the solo stuff so recently I've made every effort I can to work my way in and luckily I've finally been accepted by a few different groups and teams and stuff which is a bit of a game changer. But do you have like, is there any like literature or stuff like that about the Japanese kind of style of training or do you have any like fast runners that you look at their sessions and how is the inspiration when you're put together the weeks? Yeah, actually I basically off this book I read, it's probably last year, it was about a year ago, I used it for the first time in a build up to last year's Tokyo marathon, so that was where I ran my 214 PV and what I did was, so the training was from this 1980s Japanese runner, it's old school boy, runner, I think it was a 209 back in the day which was like right at the top, he was sort of, I'd definitely had the world record at one point, yeah in sort of 70s or something but yeah like top top runner and he was, yeah, smacking out these sort of 1000Ks a month, like 250 a week and I copied for the Tokyo marathon block, he's training program like literally session for session, so every single thing that he did back in the 80s, I copied, I didn't school like the exact same and what I did, I think I was aiming for a 212 and I got a bit nerdy with it, I calculated the percentage pace, so for me to run a 212, he ran through a 9 and then adjusted every single session by the percentage difference, so the equivalent was like for me to run a 212, that percentage of what he was doing in these sessions but all the volume, all the type of session, all the easy marriage, that was the way I did to go and that tail off pretty nice, he saw, I've done the same a little bit more loosely this time but that was yeah a big part of it. I think that's some serious good stuff, that is commitment but is this a book that is possible to get or is it just sold in Japan or? Yeah, it's, I've got it behind me and I think, it's this, the problem is, yeah it's this one, it's in Japanese, I can't, I've got the translation but it's called like basically why the Japanese marathon went wrong, that's what they translate that and it's like sort of, it's about eight of the best ever Japanese runners from like back in the day because about like 30 years ago, the Japanese were kind of the best in the world, like before the East African took over and it's sort of these old school boys talking about why they think the latest Japanese guys haven't been at a replicate what they did and then they sort of show their like super detailed training plans like all their training diaries, talk about what the stuff they were doing, it's pretty cool on that, there's no translation but like I still, my Japanese readings useless and I just use the picture translate, so I let you just every page behind quick picture I translate and it did the trick. I think you, I think you could definitely have a business with translating a 12 week marathon program from that book. Yeah, maybe that's a feature little business model, it's been on. Now I was, I'm on your Instagram now, so I think it was very handy, I saw there's a couple of minutes ago, you did a very good post now, actually you, you listed the whole last week, kind of with all the sessions. Oh yeah, yeah, like weekly recap. Yeah, I think it can we go through all like the day by day and see how you felt like what the sessions were and all that kind of stuff. I think it's, I think people would find it interesting to, to hear what that, because that would include it was just just 245, I have to say, it was not 280 but it was close enough. Perfect, I know, it was a light one. Yeah, let me, that was, I think yeah, that's a week, this just been, I've been trying to get more active on the Insta. You want me to just give a little breakdown of the kind of week, right? Well, we can start with Monday, it says here you did a 10k EC and a 16k EC. Yeah, so that was actually this week started a bit different to usual. So I was up in this northern part of Japan where it was, I was in the middle of a snowstorm so actually every road was fully snowed over, iced over. Like, probably wasn't the most sensible idea knocking at that 10, 16 but I was like literally skidding around on the road, just something I just get it done but that was, that was the highest part of the week by far, that 10 and 16 EC. 10 times higher than the 30k tempo, yeah, just battling the elements up there. But if, if, if, if we take away the snow, what kind of piece is, if you say that that was a normal week, what kind of pieces are we talking about for those for a 10 and 16 EC on a Monday? So for my easy, it's always, so this is purely off field, like I'm never checking but it always falls between 430 and 5 minute Ks, every single time, which maybe sounds slow, I guess compared to a lot of maybe Western, especially European runners, I feel go quite fast and easy but I never, ever been at a break 430 on an easy. That feels like I'm pushing it, whereas if I just run naturally, probably because of the volume I'm doing, it ends up being pretty, uh, cruzy. Yeah, I feel like, Frey, that is probably your feel, like you're, you're pretty big mileage as well. I think that you probably feel that as well. When you go out, then you're kind of, the legs doesn't want to run faster than 430. Exactly, exactly. And you don't want to push it on an easy day as well. So I tend to fall closer to 5500, then 430 as well. Yeah, it's pretty funny in the house now because you know, Ben is also running his, easy stuff in a, I would say maybe 430 back home, something like that. And you know, John Lucas always runs between 345 and 440, so it's, uh, it's fun to go out with the easy runs and like, John Lucas takes off. I remember hearing Ben talking about that, you know, something watching, I mean, he's YouTube and stuff. And yeah, like hearing about your voice, you look pretty fun, but yeah, man, I'd be getting dropped immediately out the door. No way am I, am I dropping a four minute K on an easy. Yeah, it's fun with John Lucas. It's like, oh, man, mechanics, I feel strange running slower than 4400. Yeah, it's not that different. Whereas there's some Japanese guys here, like 206 Marathoners who refuse to break 5s on an easy, though they'll run like 530s. Just cruising alone. So yeah, I think the easy stuff, yeah, depends on the volume, I guess. Yeah, the running is very interesting. How different everyone is. But, um, yeah, moving on to Tuesday, I think this one, uh, this one looks really heavy I have to say. You did a 12 KEC, 5K in 1457, 10 KEC, Jim slash sauna. And there was actually a few bit of extra easy in there as well. Like warm up warm downs, which I don't include in the total is there, but that was, that was actually a bit, it was a bit of an aborted track session. So that was, I was coming back then from this snowy, yeah, like, uh, place up north, got back late, tried to get a track session. It was meant to start off with like a pretty easy 5K. That was meant to be the sort of warm up to build in. I actually pulled the plug there because I was knackered. I think from this heavy sort of, yeah, travel, uh, I mean, I got some decent volume here. I've been trying to get the sauna as well in as well. So like, uh, I'm pretty useless in the heat. And I've got this little home sauna. So this is this little tent thing. It's crazy. Uh, it gets up to sort of 65. It can go. It's infrared. So it's just, yeah, tiny, it costs about 100 euros. Like dead cheap. I've got it, yeah, my little apartment here. I've been jumping in that for probably three times a week or so for eight training. I think that could be, uh, why? So I was at Lonely Marathon last year at the supporting band and, uh, yeah, it was hot. So I think that's, uh, definitely a good idea. And I know that cold gibbons was using this kind of heat blanket or something before that, that, that the block before last year's London. And he did really good. So I think, yeah, prepare for the heat. I think it's a really good thing for, for the Lonely Marathon. Yeah, London's such a gamble. It could be just like wet and 10 degrees or you could be like, like she was like 20 something. So I'm not playing, taking any chances this time. But, but, but do you, do you measure on chorus like can you see, you know, calories and stuff like that? Because I, when I just look at a day like that Tuesday, it feels like 5,000 calories at least. Yeah, I, I reckon the problem is we mark what? She actually only wear it when I'm running. So I'm, I'm sure. I only wear it some for runs, but I've, I remember before I've calculated and I think every day on eating at least 5,000 calories, like when average you say, just to survive pretty much. Yeah. That's what I was feeling. I feel like to be able to do that day, I feel like I would you have to eat like more or less all the time between the sessions. Yeah, that's the life pretty much. All right. So, so when stayed in and there was 25 KEC, 12 KEC, healer sprints and core. Yeah. So I tried to maybe three times a week usually, drop some heal sprints in there after my doubles. I find almost the biggest thing for me is my weakness before has always been my carbs. Like I always get little calf strains. cast hairs back in the day. And I found actually just by hammering the Hillsprints, it loads the calves up, which then sees through the best kind of injury prevention, like almost that little overload to then shrink from the marks. I've never had any carved problems since. And then maybe there's some mechanical benefits, that top end. I've heard a lot of people throwing in the Hillsprints as well recently. So yeah, I chuck them in there. Boom, that's, yeah, it's a very good week. I think now we're on the third day. It's 7K fart lick averaged 317 and then 12k ESA EC and then Plio and then Sona. Yeah, this was actually the first fart that I've done in forever. I was jumping in with one of my mates in Tokyo who's in ridiculous shape. Ethan Shuley, he's an American guy. You'll be hearing the name a lot soon. I reckon it would drop maybe a 207 marathon. Where is he running? 206 on the weekend. He's running in Osaka in Japan. Nice. He actually lives here in Japan, but he's like the crazy old VYU boy. So he used to train with you like on a man's, Clayton, yeah, but then he quit running, retired and he's come back now, just like, yeah, I think he's about to have a crazy pop up. So I jumped him with him. He was doing, it's a bit more of an American style, something I'd never do normally, but it was, oh, it's brutal. It was like 60 seconds at three minute K pace, straight into 90 seconds at 255 per K pace and then a recovery two minutes at like 340 and then back to the cycle of the 69 E2. And then that was for, yeah, like 17K work. So that was a good bit of sort of fast switch, getting their legs spinning. I feel like that was a good session when you're, yes, work around your kind of threshold, I would say maybe for him around 255, free zero zero and then go slower than like maybe down to some zone two again and yeah, like flash out some like a tape. I think that feels like a very good session. Yeah. For me, it's the change of pace. It's a nightmare. It's like going at three minute Ks and then trying to pick up. That's the hardest bit. It's like, yeah, I thought I'm good at like looking to rhythm, but that's sort of pace changes stuff. Yeah, I said, my weakness. Nice, nice, but that's good day as well. So then where we're next is Friday, 20 K EC, 12 K EC, Hill sprints again and then core. I just have to say you have four days now in a row with it in the gym or maybe you do our list things separately like just see it. I kind of break it up. I'd say almost every day usually at all six days a week out of seven. I'm doing. So if you take yet in a week, I'll do two plyometric sessions, two gym, two core. That's usually like that's the aim and they're not super heavy. That's kind of the idea. We've all done to sort of break it up. So I'm not hammering the legs in any of them and it's so like if it's plyometrics, it's I don't know, a 20 minute session, just a lot of kind of explosive stuff working on that mechanics and that core. That's a mix of sort of stretching abs, band work. Again, I pretty light. So I'm not killing the legs and then the gym work. That's again, I'm not in a gym. I'm doing it at home. What I actually do is I get these big bags of rice. Well, I've got one in there. That is five kg rice bags and I use them as weights. Backpack and then just do simple like single leg stuff, single leg squats, lunges, random like whatever I find it's enough in special, which is just enough to I guess prevent injuries, keep the legs sort of solid and that's my rudimental gym routine. Good. I like it. Yeah, very, very, very interesting stuff here and then we have, yeah, Saturday then it was this massive session and I saw on your Instagram reel. It's 30k average 315 rated 3k 303 22k 318 and then 5k 305 and after that you did 10k EC and plyo and sauna. Yeah, yeah. And then I guess on any of those session days it's always a 5k warm up, 5k warm down as well. So that adds on that. That was a fit. It was that fully fit. Yeah, 50k day. That was solid. But your roads are under, it was here or on Stravy road that the EC, there was this easiest the 318 have ever felt and the hardest ever the 305 have felt. Yeah, it was a weird it was like the 318 part, the steady part. I felt like I could go at that all day like super comfy and then I think the what was the set to where we did it on this course it had, it was like a 5k loop and there was three bridges during this loop. So I actually ended up being about 20 hills effectively during it and I was finding like I'm cruising on the steady part but then soon as we hit the 305s because I wanted to go a little bit quicker maybe like three flat and started off at that on the flat and I'm like yeah it's fine I'm cruising. I hit one of those hills it's like bang I'm dropping to like 310 through 20 pace. It's like oh geez these these do some damage so they end up being a yeah a tough little 5k at the end. But how does the 10k in the afternoon feels after a session like that because I would probably call it a day after that session. I find it just for flushing out the legs. I end up feeling better once I do it. I think probably it's just from so much conditioning of the mileage that now it's just part of the routine. It's like just get my body moving five minute k's. It's not really I don't think of it as a run. It's just like flush the legs out get ready for the next day kind of thing. It's interesting how the body how it adapts. It's yeah very cool stuff and then we had let's say Sunday 10k ec 16k in 353 gym. Yeah plus warm up down warm up, work cool down and yeah that was it. 10k ec 16k at 353 and gym. Yeah yeah so I guess for you that have been easier on but for me that's really my diary is a steady. There's nothing I'm having to push myself to get some falls. But that was great. That's first time I've ever been digesting a week like this. This is definitely hard work after say what do you say for a about this week? Oh yeah and considering this is one of the lower weeks in your routine as well it's just yeah very inspiring stuff. I appreciate it. It's funny I think the almost the Japanese model in the Scandinavian they're like the complete polar opposites in like your guys very much intensity control kind of a lot of numbers a lot of that the Japanese complete opposite it's like absolutely slug yourself on the floor dead at the end of every session and just yeah no numbers purely just goes as you can off pace feel that kind of thing it's quite funny. I feel like on paper if say if you look on our Strava's I feel both both frame I are running quite a high mileage just like not like yourself but at least like I've been having 12 weeks in a row around 200 to 215 15 but then it's definitely as you say very much like intensity control with lactates measurements and all like heart rate stuff to make sure that like I don't overdo things. Do you enjoy all the numbers and stuff I guess it seems like from the videos and the progress you guys love with the scientific. The numbers is the part or the best part of running out for for sure. Exactly exactly and now when we know what a typical week looks like I want to maybe dive in more of how a typical year looks like. Do you have some sort of periodization where you do like base period and as a specific work and taper or do your weeks look fairly consistent throughout the year. I'd say I mean definitely building up to the marathon like so for example from following that Japanese model the sort of three month build up to a race then it's very much. What they do is the distance almost remains the same. So for example like at the start of the block you're doing 40k runs and at the end you're doing these 40k runs but what changes throughout is the paces to effectively getting closer and closer to your target race pace whereas opposed to some people might start off you got your goal race pace and you're increasing over the block the distance whereas it's very much like a volume first approach and you get faster and faster as you get fitter and that kind of directions is like everything effectively from the start you're doing the same workouts the same sort of 10k pace speed stuff the same long runs the same tempo and then you just get gradually faster so there's that kind of natural progression throughout and then a lot of it is also just dictated by the weather in Japan because in here it's so so hot in summer that unverifiable from pretty much June through to like October you can't really do 10pose or in a way that anything longer than about a K it's just like so so bad. So that changes a lot of the type of training. There's a lot more just big mileage, but kind of working on that volume, that strength. And then as it goes into the winter season, towards marathon season, then it really ramps up the sort of long temples all that, which you just can't hit really during the summer. That's cool. That's like a seasonal in that way. Yeah, yeah, I'd say it varies a lot. Even like I'm not, I don't do a track season whatever, but I'd say my summer blocks very different. And actually this year, I'm going the other way. Instead of a lot of people you tracking this summer, I'm actually me dabbling in some altruis. So once marathon seasons over, I'm stepping it up even further, the guy in full cart always for the long stuff. You really want to avoid those faster stuff, huh? Oh yeah, sure. Yeah, but I think that it's pretty fun because as I mentioned before, you know, when you were in Stockholm and we saw that you did, you were at the lab with Philip and the Nomeo crew. Did you like talk about training and stuff with Philip? And did he come with some advice that he would think that he would want to do if he was your coach or how was that kind of interaction? Yeah, that was very funny. That was almost like the complete opposite end of the spectrum, like this sort of, I'm coming in with, yeah, this like Japanese style approach. And then, yeah, meet like the Nomeo guys, yeah, the legends and like Philip, it was so interesting to see him here in his chat and he basically just saying that my training was just mental because I was trying to explain that I hadn't stepped on a treadmill in like five years. I didn't really know what threshold was, no idea where I've never taken lactate in my life. This was just blowing his mind. He was like, how is this guy? He said he couldn't believe that I'd ran T14. If I trained properly, like Scandinavian, I'd be well under T10, but yeah, it's such a different kind of approach. It was interesting, I hear them. How many percent of you, when you heard that from Philip would be like, maybe I should change it as Scandinavian approach then. No, it may be thinking about it. But then the way I saw it is like, I think for shorter distances, if you're training 5K, 10K, 15, maybe the half, I'd say that model is like improving to be very successful. What I'd see less of is the best marathoners, the East Africans, the Japanese, they were dominating. From what I've seen, they're the complete other end, which is like, purely or feel, no sort of numbers, no stats involved. And for me personally, I finally just as soon as I get too data driven, it sucks the fun out of it. For you, you level the side to side. For me, it becomes too much like I'm doing maths or something. I just want to slog myself. I want to feel like I'll train hard at the end of a session, be hurting. To me, that's the enjoyment of training. That's what you should do. We're mainly here because it's fun. It's motivating. That's your style. There's some of the different types of training that you can exactly pick a method that suits you. That's the best bit of our running. But it's fun seeing people on internet. How many times have you heard, like, "Jake Broadcliffe has to raise his speed ceiling. He has to do some more middle-distance stuff." I feel like that could probably be counted on. I don't know. It's that advice you have heard before. It's probably the question. I can give the answer, because actually I've answered this before in videos. But I used to back in the UK, the whole time during the university, I trained exclusively as a 1500 metre runner. I'd do the classic 10x400 as hard as you can, absolutely killing myself. Maybe like 5xK. The actual proper speed stuff. I was so much slower at 1500, 5xK. I don't know what it is. Maybe it's just must be my genetic makeup. But the best place speed wise is when I'm training for a marathon. Right now, peak marathon shape, I'd pee over 815, 5xK, all of that. As soon as I caught the mileage, focus on my speed. That's when everything goes right. I tell my calves. It doesn't work for me. You're clearly more slow-twitch oriented that really thrives with a lot of mileage for sure. Yeah, I think so. I don't know if you listened to the episode, but I've done some nerdy calculations. We use the Hendrik-5 format a lot in our episodes. I think he's the most kind of squeezed athlete I know that has like, so he's got like 10 seconds between his 10k PB and his marathon PB. So if you're calculating to that, the sub-210 go. Do you think like what is 255? Do you think like 2910? That should not be too far away, right? Think for a 10k? The yesterday I've never ran a 10k or 5k, but I'd say right now I should be at break 29. I'd say if it's a yeah. I saw a video of when you were around at the Melbourne race with a lot of people blocking away in the end. Yeah, that was a matter of course. That was moving up to the course. Yeah, was that a 2930 something like right? Yeah, that's it. Yeah, you looked really, really good air. I think like your stride was very, very you looked good. The funny is that that was one week after a marathon. Yeah, I don't know. I was so poppy who was like, yeah, I don't know, but I know you mean about here at 54 with that because a lot of people like, you've got a, it's impossible to break 210 if you don't raise the ceiling. So that's my aim to be the slowest ever sub-210 runner. With a 1457 official 5k PV, I wouldn't break 210, but yeah, the ultimate car of the world. But I feel like if you feel like around sub 29 is doable, then I definitely feel like 210 is doable as well. Hopefully. Yeah, I'd say we'll see, but I think now my speed definitely improves. It's like the ceiling tire. It's now, yeah, extend out the endurance. That kind of thing. Yeah. Good stuff. So I was more interested in hearing your thoughts going into London. What's your goal there? You were talking about breaking the 210 in the marathon. Is that a goal for London? Or is it more like a long term goal? And how do you see London marathon? What's a perfect day look like out there for you? Yeah, London is one of them where, because there's going to be so many brits going for the step 20930. That's like the European champs standard. I guess other Europeans in the race. So pretty certain there should be a whole group. Hopefully there'll be a pacemaker as well. And we'll have a squad rolling at that. That's the hardest thing with these Japanese races. The slowest pacemaker will be going at 206 in every Japanese race. So you have an every single guy just jumps in that train and then 90% of them die. So it's like the worst place to try and run a 210. You've either got me in two six shape or you're like a 215 to 20 runner. Whereas I'm thinking London's like that prime spot where obviously it's still going to be a massive gamble. I'm going to have to take a risk and that's kind of the way I'm seeing London is like a sort of big swing type race where I'm going to go at that pace wherever. Like obviously it depends a little bit on the training block. But the way my fitness is coming up, I think if I can bank a couple more solid months uninterrupted, then I feel like I'll be in that realm where get a good day, good weather, good group and it could be doable. So that would be the big yeah, it's up to 10 attempt. Really really cool. And will you travel? Will you be staying in in UK for a couple of weeks before? Will you travel just directly to London for the race? This is the bit I'm not sure about because traveling back for Valencia, I basically got ill. I went a week or I went 10 days early, I tried to play it proper safe. I was thinking with time difference and everything. And then ended up where I immediately after Valencia marathon was like just wiped out some virus for a couple of weeks. So I must say I clearly picked that up somewhere on the travel or back in the UK. I feel like I don't travel that well. So this is the biggest challenge is like do I maybe fly in literally the day before, one day before like not give my body time to realize that we switched off and just try and go straight in or wherever I do the classic like give yourself 10 days a week or whatever, but then risk change of environment and everything. So yeah, got away that one out. Yeah, that's going to be I've very very interesting. It's sad that it's the no on your 10k this year, me week and otherwise I would definitely have gone to London to to watch the race. Oh, so you're going to be doing that one. The boys were saying about the no on your 10k. I wanted to do that, but it's going to fall on what 26th of April is it? Yeah, exactly. Got him. What was the A. Hey, what are you going for? Oh, I think I want a PB. So I think after after pacing Ben, now with 305, that felt very comfortable. So I really hope that I can do 28 30, I would say I hope I can do that. I will be nice. Oh, be because they were talking about some pretty good pacemakers and stuff like turning into a pretty quick race. I heard some rumors about Evan Jager doing taking some of the pace and responsibilities. That would be really cool. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't get much better than that. That would do the trick. Definitely. Definitely. A lot of people, as we spoke about already talked about racing the ceiling in terms of speed, if we just go back to that for a moment, you said you were doing some hill sprints, that's mainly for injury prevention rather than maybe race the speed ceiling in that sense. Are you doing, you said you're only doing stuff at 10k pace, not faster than that, is that correct? I'd say yes, but my 10k pace seems to be getting a lot quicker. Whereas before actually last year's Tokyo, I was sort of, I'd rarely ever be able to go under three minute k's. I think the best session I did was maybe eight by a k in 257 before last year's Tokyo. Now I was actually recently training with this team out and training camp. I've been dropping comfortably long reps at 250 or knocking out 245's. I'd say it still feels like 10k pace, but it's just so much faster than it's ever been before. It's pretty encouraging, I say recently. I think a lot of people say I need to work on the speed. I think I've been doing that just through a different method, through smashing my toes, long tempo and that's brought up my top end as well. If I think it's fun, I think a little bit speaking with you, Jake is, I have the same approach as I would speak to our Chikestila club, the guy who runs the same club as me and Frey, he's the two 10 marathoner. He always goes his own way and people have asked me, would you, would you ever give advice to our Chikestila club? He should put up his session stuff. I was like, why should I? The guy who's been running two 10? He's like a diamond. I don't want to interrupt him in some boring stuff and talk about neuromuscular connection and stuff like that. He's clearly interested in the science stuff and he's running two 10s. He's just doing fine with the stuff he's doing it like himself. I like that. He keeps it old school, just simple. I'm also just so stubborn that it's almost like I'm having my head, yeah, this is the way I want to do it and that's kind of what I've stuck to. Obviously, putting yourself out there, there's going to be, I'm sure you a lot of experience here as well. Of course, every people that think, are you doing it wrong? You've got to be doing it this way that way. You can't listen to everyone. You've got to stick to one approach and commit to that instead of, yeah, everyone's got an opinion on how people should be trading. 100% 100% I just listened to my coach more or less. Everything else just rubs off. And that only goes to show that if we removed Strava and social media entirely, you would probably train exactly the same way, right? Yeah, I mean, the first year I was in Japan, that was actually before I did any content like before I had a YouTube channel, before any of that. And I was in the identical training. It was like, I've committed exactly to the Japanese model. And then it was just, I started showing that now on social media, but the actual essence why I'm doing it, that doesn't matter. I could quit YouTube tomorrow. And I'd still be knocking out, yeah, 250k weeks. Does this sharing your training make you better? Or do you think it add kind of like a pressure? If you know, yeah, understand where I'm getting at. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no. I wouldn't say I feel any pressure, probably because I'm not influenced by anyone. I sound pretty stuck in my own ways that it doesn't really influence me what anyone says. Like I love all the supporting stuff from YouTube, but I don't feel like I've got a performance for these people. I've got to keep running this many miles because that's what people think that I do. It's more just, this is how I try and I'll show it to people. And if they like it, it's cool. If they want to watch some videos, it's great. And luckily, yeah, people have seen to be enjoying it. So to me, it's just like a bonus, really. Yeah, I think that is so different between runners in this case. For myself, I run better if I put as much pressure on myself as possible. For example, now a normal 10k. Now I said I will run 20, 2830. So then it's much easier to like the last three case when I feel I don't want to be a failure. So like it's easier to push to see all these faces that I've seen and said that I've got around 20, 30 and see them and feel like I don't want to kind of have them seeing me as this like a failure. I think that is how I operate the best. I think I just say or something pretty fast. And then it's easier if I say to ask many people as possible to push it in the end. Yeah, I like that. Just put your goal out there. I'm the same as you're thinking that with some workouts, I'll be absolutely dying. And I'm like, this is going to sharpen. Shrub it. It's going to be like tens of thousands of people looking at this. I can't have those splits that drop in at the end. I know what you mean. It's like, he's a motivator in a way. I bet you phrase that because I know that so many people are very, some people have a really hard time with that. They don't want to put out their goals at all because they feel like they put too much pressure on themselves. Yeah, we actually spoke about this during the week in Barcelona that I get the comment a lot that, oh, you're so brave for putting yourself out there and talking about your goals that you are so vulnerable in a way. But I think that's kind of like the, yeah, you show yourself the whole picture, even if you don't succeed, if you don't make this goal, there's also something to take from that as well to see how I handle the disappointment and not reach this goal that I set up. How do I handle this situation and all that stuff? So I think it's sometimes even better to not reach the goal that I've been training for in terms of just engagement on social media kind of. It's people love to see you. They do love to see you succeed, but they also love to see you not succeed and be vulnerable and to see how I tackle those challenges as well. So, yeah, I think it's healthy to talk about the goals in that sense. Yeah, that's a good strategy. You should do like Ben and I. We were actually, he said to me, after 15 years, I'm easily going to do sub 65, but it's better to keep that one for engagement now. Not really. It's a good strategy. But if someone were to copy your mileage, Jake, but maybe not your mindset, what do you think they would miss or what would be the biggest challenge? I guess the challenge of it is more you've got to be so self driven in a way. I think because a lot of people, like the questions I always get that I see come up is, how would you stay motivated to get out of Iran? I don't you find it boring. Like how would you get out after like even, they're like doing a 30k in the morning, getting out of a 10k. I think that's something that I don't think about in a way. It's just because I'm purely self driven. It's like everything I'm doing and running is to try and be the best runner possible that it doesn't feel ever like a cure. It's probably just subconscious. I'm like, I've got to do that run to get to the point where I want to be. So there's never a thought that like complete, even when it's like, you're tired of stuff, it never actually crossed my mind or I'm not going to go for this run like, oh, I'm on the fence. And we're going to get out literally ever. And maybe it's as well because I'm self coached in a way. It doesn't ever feel like someone's telling me to do it. If purely I'm just telling myself. And in a weird way, it's like that just gets me out of the door every day, double day, triple day. It's not what it is. I'll always still get it done. But maybe that takes, yeah, slightly psychotic mindset. I think maybe I've got something wrong with me, right? Yeah, I just love the miles grinding them out. It never feels like work. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I understand what you're saying. Do you consider yourself talented or just extremely consistent? I like to say I'm the least talented pro of all time. That was my aim when I signed my bricks. It was because effectively, I was seeing runners that have ran so much quicker over 5K, 1500. To me, that's the sort of natural talent, I guess. When you're younger, without training how fast they'd be riding over, like when you're a kid, like 800, 1500, and I was always good, but never like near the top of the UK, rank and stuff. Like obviously you've got to have talent, but I think of outperform people that are much more naturally talented, that could have ran a whole lot quicker than me over the marathon just by putting in more work. And that's, I think as you've got the distances, talent becomes less important and hard work becomes more, so even like you can extend that up to the ultra marathon, it's even more than about just literally hard work grinding out. Whereas look at the 100, the 200 meters, that's so genetic, that yeet. and like 800, you can see people not training that hard and still running crazy times, whereas I could dedicate my whole life to running 800 and I probably still not break two minutes. So like, yeah, I think that's the sort of interesting balance. - Yeah, the classic endurance athletes are made as sprinters are born for sure. But I feel like also, you know, in that sense, I also think feel like I would never not run a session. I feel like I feel scared about if that would ever happen to be like am I starting to be weak now? Like am I starting to take the shortcuts now? Stuff like that, that would just, yeah, I don't know. Like I think just bailing a session, that would never happen. I can't even imagine what that would, what would have gone through during the day that would make me miss a session, to be honest. - You just got a retire at that point. I just think this isn't for me anymore. That's the, when that day comes, you know, you're not in. - Yeah, definitely. That's what I think that's just like running, not running a session because you don't feel for it. That is when I will definitely question if I'll at the right place. - Yeah, you got to love training to do this sport is you got to just actually enjoy doing it. Like if it feels like a chore then it runs a pretty brutal sport. - Yeah, so I think I probably have to come to that point when it's not like an option. It's not that you're thinking about should I go out and do a session? It's just like, it's not a choice. You just put it in there and you just get you, I guess, and then you just, that's just what's gonna happen. - Yeah. We touched upon this, I think earlier, but what's something you believed about training maybe five years ago, or let's say, move for, yeah, before you move to Japan that you now think was wrong? - Mm. - Oh, I ask you a question, I guess, probably, I'd say always, like, I've just learned that my limit is way higher than I thought it was. Like I think, so when I ran, when I said I moved to Japan, so I ran that 2.30 A, so that was my first ever marathon. And I thought after that, so it'd been like, it was a very hot marathon, it was like 35 degrees. So it was a pretty brutal one. So yeah, it was like, it was never like, you're really going for a time, but I remember thinking after that, maybe my absolute physical genetic limit would be 2.20, and I was like, maybe if I actually commit everything, I moved to Japan in like five years time, maybe I'd break that 2.20, and I remember even watching on YouTube all the series of like, people, 'cause loads of our full, like, the sub-unit runners on YouTube have done that series like, aiming towards 2.20, and so to me, that was like, oh, this is that huge barrier, but then it was crazy within about a month of living here. I was training with guys that were like, two 16 runners, two 17, and it just completely shifted my mindset, and then you see all these other guys knocking it out, and you see like, students in Japan, like university students running 206, 207, and that completely shifted my mindset to like, well, if they can do it here, why couldn't I be able to do that? So it's more just, it's completely, it's kept like creeping up as to, I don't know how, they obviously will be a limit, but it's way further, I think, than a lot of people realize that, yeah, you own actual limit there. I can definitely see that as well. I think especially your runners from UK now, like, it's so many fast runners, and I feel, yeah, running into UK now, and you just like a 10-key race, and you see people like, you don't really feel like, they look like runners, but they run like, I don't know, like sub 29, and it's, yeah, it's crazy how it is, I think, with just hard work for sure. And I'd say it's different with the UK, people are so focused on 5K, 10K, there's so many guys running quick there, that I think now it's starting to translate to the marathon as well, but yeah, we're interested to see how that goes if people do transition up, because in Japan, there's so many guys out here running quick that you think are 210, of course, everyone can. And we're all part of the Brooks family, so to speak, so we, of course, have to ask you as well, what your shoe rotation looks like right now. - Can you tell us more on the level? - Yeah, yeah. Firstly, yeah, congrats on the big signing, that was quality, when I saw that got announced. - Yeah, thanks a lot. - Thanks a lot, then, we were, yeah, that was one of the first things we said, like now where we have to run a lot, and in Brooks' shoes, many kilometers a week, we probably have to ask Jake Berkman in the future, what his shoe rotation is to shoes that could last a lot of their pounding. - Yeah, I feel like I've put them through their paces. I've tried out, literally, the whole range, I feel like at this point, yeah, I'm constantly asking for more shoes to be sent over. I said, probably in here in Japan, they don't even make my size, so my feet are too big for Japanese shoes, everyone's got tiny little feet, so I've got to get them shit from America, but my go-to, like easy running. I love the ghost, just like standard Brooks ghost, and then also recently, I've been getting into the Hyperion 3, you know, little bit, it's one of them where you can pick up the pace a bit. So for stuff like strides, I like that, 'cause it's not as chunky as a lot of them, as the sort of big thick ones, you could use it for a bit of steady running. So I like that for my sort of doubles, and then I'll play around with, if I'm tired, I'll whack on them ghost max three, like the big chunky ones, and then obviously, I shit the moment, you're saying that you've not tried the new Elite 6, well, like the prototype yet, but it's good. Yeah, it's directly what I saw you using it. I was like, I have to take Jack and Jack and ask you how it was. Yeah, yeah, that's cool. I've been testing that one out, so that would be more race-to-shoe coming up now. I like the, yeah, the fire is very good, but what? What is the difference between a high-perinially five and a six, you would say? I was trying to put my finger on it. What's, almost the five, I quite like it was quite firm. Almost like a little bit more traditional racing shoes, opposed to some of the bit more like squishy ones, which I actually quite like the feel of. This one's still firm, but it feels like it's got a bit more pop kind of, in, I don't know what they've done with the, I don't know any of the technical stuff, but you feel like you're getting a bit more pop off of your gun. I don't know what is with the shape or the plate or whatever, but it's good. Yeah, that's, I still like it, say, it's a good show. You've got to try and get your hands on them. Yeah, I think like it, that they'll hit the market in July, whatever we've seen. So yeah, that's probably something that, look forward to a lot of people to try on the, the Brooks hyperinially six. Which ones of you guys liked for training? I feel like we're, I think we're both for big fans within you, Glisser and Flex. Oh, we tried it one. No, no, no, no, I've just seen all the advertising stuff. Yeah, what's it like? It's like, I also, we also thought it was more like a gimmick product, and to like, because it looks crazy, that you can just, it's like a Nike free run from back in the days, you know, where you can just bend it. But it was, yeah, it's actually much more poppy than I, than it don't afford it. Like so that, that's definitely something that I would do more of these, like top zone two, L21 kind of a sessions on the treadmill. It's, I feel like they're responsive a good way, and it's no plate whatsoever, of course, because you can bend them in all kind of different directions. Yeah, my favorite is probably the, what's it called? The Hyperion Max three. I really like the Max cushioned type of shoes, and this one also has a, has a plate, I think, in plastic or an iron or whatever. But yeah, that's my go-to shoe for doing the longer, the kind of like the grindy stuff. So I had to break them in, but once I did that, it was, yeah, it's my, it's my favorite shoe. Actually, that's a classic, yeah, I use that for my long runs, like I did, what was it? End of last year, like a 70K run, and that was a whole thing was in there. So yeah, they're vanging for just like a little bit up tempo, but I've heard that, yeah, with that fact cushioning, they protect the legs as well. Yeah, I think they're very fast as well. I did a good pick up long run now last week with them when I finished the last 10K in round three or five to three or 10, and I felt that that was like, yeah, felt good. Very, very good stuff. I am super, super nice to have you on board. I think a lot of people are very happy now, because as we said, you're definitely the most frequently asked guests. So it's very, very nice to finally have you on you. Thanks a lot, Jake, for joining us. Wish you all the best for the upcoming races, and especially London marathon. I really hope and think you will smash that sub to 2.09030 then. Boom, boom. Thanks, Jake. Take care. Good stuff. Good stuff.