The Jackie McKeown Interview with Throwing Fits

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That's the real real calm Our guest this week always gets asked how's your running, but never what are you running from her brand literary sport is Setting the pace for the new wave of performance brands It's marathon and she's gonna sprint the whole way until the big dogs and sportswear start to sweat or More likely just copy her shit call this cardio queen Rob Ford Because she's got that runners high based in Toronto and she's getting active on the pod today trying to set a PR and yapping here to chat with us about the future of active Where brands styling Drake and if run clubs actually get you laid creative director and design director of literary sport Jack McKew and Jackie How that are you? I'm excellent. How are you guys? Fantastic. You're running better now. I didn't wear running shoes. No, I walked here Thanks a leisurely show I leisurely throw although these are comfortable loafers. I probably could have you know, let's talk about it What do you what did you wear today today? Well today? I'm obviously wearing some literary sport So I've got something coming for fall 26 and wearing our little half sip in plaid in a seer sucker plaid The running card again from the season Some vintage gap cackies. Oh, and then Senna loafers What about the undershirt? The undershirt is also a literary sport. Oh nice life Salty What about the socks the socks? Oh, that's a really good question I want to say that the socks are probably potentially clumsy. Oh, okay, what about this fucking crazy hat Yeah, the hat is like the most asked question was just so funny It's like a thrifted hat that was definitely handmade. It's like you can tell the stitches are a bit janky on the inside Okay, this was definitely like a project. I have a small head So probably didn't fit them and they were like damn, I made this hat too small So I've benefited from it, but yeah, it's your game. Yeah, it's an interesting silhouette obviously, but yeah Polar fleece it's a polar fleece. Yeah, you wear while running. No, I well I will wear it while running, but I typically it's it's a daily okay as soon as it gets to this temperature It's daily what about the coat the coat is a vintage or money. Oh, you want to be both and you know I got my shout out my partner friend her mom found this for me also thrifting. She's She's a thrifting queen. Yeah, her mother. Yeah, and so she's found out some like You know amazing like Ralph Lauren suits and things like that and she just kind of knows now like it's like if you're like I'm looking for this stuff. She'll send a photo from the thrift Older woman who's just like got fantastic taste. So she she found that for me vintage gap is that something you're collecting quite a few of her Is that she's like you just saw these khakis and I mean not specifically, but I do really like 90s gap I have I do actually have quite a few 90s gap pieces like my favorite leather jacket is this like it looks very Jill Sanders this nice little boxy super clean minimal 90s leather jacket that I've had for like 10 years and that's a gap and then Just some other like button downs classic like Chambres stuff Vintage Eddie Bauer wrinkle free or LL bean. It's Eddie Bauer Eddie Bauer That sure France wearing it today actually. Yeah, that sure has had so much life since since you first saw that But it's like zero wrinkles. Yeah, zero wrinkles. It's crazy how quickly like you literally throw it out of the suitcase It looks like a mess and within like 10 minutes. It's all it's all relaxed. So shout out Eddie Bauer. A fucking dream for traveling It is a dream and it's like the perfect like perfect button downs. What's the technology there? How's that possible? That's what I don't know I'm like it's probably some and it's also vintage for sure So it's like gotta be some illegal like oh for sure. I don't do it. There's no way that's legal now It's like you can see there's like this sheen and the light. They're like I don't know what I'm wearing You're gonna get shoulder cancer It's a rock on wood and it kind of even like has like tape seams like it's a really crazy shirt. I don't know what's up with it I know I should well funny enough. We have a running like button upcoming. So Yeah, okay. What about? What are brown panties? A brown panties. What do we got going on? Calvin Klein. Okay. Oh, it was Calvin Klein And then gap actually. Oh, wow They make the best like bra let's know nothing In addition. We're all new for that. What uh, let's talk about all the hardware the accessory. Yeah, we're not here signature puka shells I'm not even oh these ones are just like whatever nothing like on the street kind of like vendor Um old jewelry for the ring Uh, do you guys know Sarah serb? Oh, he's Broadway. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, actually right now Um, it looks like a awesome little shop amazing pieces like she this is one of her pieces that she makes like I forget the name of the ring now Um, but this is like kind of like an evergreen piece and then she she brings in like amazing Like sterling silver bracelets necklace this stuff like that. I feel like you guys would like it good merch Yeah, she's great and then this actually friend had made for me like eight or nine years ago It's like a just a little thank you ring. Wow little onyx. Yeah, all right Yeah, uh and you're sipping on a tobo chico. Yeah, what's your like what's your hydration drink of choice my hydration? Yeah, like outside of water Yeah, like electrolytes and salts and shit or gatorade. I mean like I don't really like if I'm if I'm running like You know like actually training running like uh, there's like a Morton electrolyte kind of like powdered okay Situation that I'll throw in a water bottle, but like hydration now. I'm a I'm a water girl. You're not doing like you're not doing the gels and the goops and the tinctures and shit on a marathon Right or like a half marathon. Yeah, I'm hitting some Mortons. I got a shout out because they're lovely. They always send us gel so Great gel floating. That's right. Yeah, we don't we don't have that many active people like that's where they're going to know what I'm talking We're going to ask you the most basic ass running question. Yeah, it's all for the hour and a half to say so like left foot then right here Yeah, well, you know, if you want to do a double right you can see what happens. I don't know give it a go When you fucking squeeze out a gel and you got the empty you just throw it on the street like it's definitely not that's like such a thing That's like really I mean like during during a race that obviously people are doing that because there's people that are cleaning it up But like when you run through like parks. I'm not sure. It's probably worse here But in Toronto, you'll just see the like flow of people's like weird goo and Morton Throwing on the ground, but no, no, you gotta you gotta keep that in your pocket until you hit a garbage It's like well, it's you can't pollute You know littering is bad. Are you a marathon runner? I have never run a full marathon half marathons like I grew up playing a ton of sports So for me running was always like the kind of like secondary thing, but I was ran and then it was only like I guess about 10 years Going around my first half I wasn't really that into like I think the culture of it is so interesting that like the Composition is not really like the driving force for me. I just kind of like doing it. Um, I did another half a few weeks ago for fun and you know For fun for fun. I friend of mine heard his back and he had like a bib for Toronto half So he was like do you want to take this and it's what he's tapped in tapped in you ran as him. I ran well I was able to I was able to change the name so luckily I got I got my name on there But um, yeah, I mean like it's not really like the goal to be like you know crashing marathons But I probably will do a full one next year. Just we believe it. So I so I can you know, what do you think of like? I don't know if you weren't here for that do you guys do anything around the New York marathon? We didn't this year know. I think the idea like because again we're based in Toronto We did something last year during the Toronto marathon I think that you know again, we're not really like super performance driven Like obviously you can run a marathon in it I have friends that have run marathon in literary sport But we're not like trying to really focus on like that side of the audience But I mean eventually like if it feels right But on the culture side of it where it has like at least in New York It's become like it's always an amazing day But it's a party and and now everyone's you know fucking taking selfies and shit. Yes, what do you think as a runner What do you think of people that are like runners that are like they'll stop like smoke a cigarette or like have you know Shoot a fireball or was like while they're running the marathon kind of that or a guy doesn't like jeans or whatever I mean like I didn't Tim. Yeah, I saw I mean that's just funny like it's it's good to see it But I'm like, I don't know like why I don't know sure it's called getting attention. Yeah Like that's typically really I guess I mean it's the same everywhere like you see like the people And costumes and all that stuff right if you're having fun Swataly yeah, exactly. You know no If you're if you're not littering your goo packs right as long as you're not throwing your goo packs you're good I'm good with this is getting choking on goo packs. All right. Yeah, it's good to the meat potatoes of the podcast Which I don't know if that's how you carve a load or not, but Your base in Toronto like you said how real is that Gerber asked smoke them you accent in Toronto fam Is that it's it's legit. Yeah, the man's who they're the man's are there But it's not really in the city though like it's a funny thing because there's like obviously so many like memes about it now, but It's in it's in Brampton Brampton Brampton close enough Brampton or like Scarborough the Scarborough man's All things Drake mentions all things Drake mentions, but it's weird because he's just like this like really Exaggerated version of an accent that like I don't know anyone personally that talks like that So I don't know like why that has evolved, but I I don't know if if everyone's kind of copying him or if this is like a legit Oh, it's like is he is a chicken or the egg in terms of Drake's influence with this ridiculous Well with the people that are talking like that. I'm like, I don't know like I don't know if it's a cultural thing or if it's a Drake thing So I don't hear it on a daily basis, so I feel like for us like a lot of us see these like things and we're like I don't even know what that means like it's not a Toronto thing. It's you have a favorite Toronto slang word that we New Yorkers might not know I don't even know if we have one really well I'm sure we do but like these fake ones kind of these fake ones kind of like Gerberass Gerber. What do we what do we say like I feel like I don't know I don't know. I don't know I don't know Am I saying anything weird like call me out if I say so weird so weird so weird so fucking You're being so nice. It's crazy. Yeah, I don't know. I wish I could like hate on it. I don't I don't know I don't know what to say you're just seeing the same tiktoks as everyone else in your life. I'm seeing the same stuff Same five clips. Yeah. Yeah, like what is Toronto slang? I don't even know. Is that like a good representation? You think of your city? I mean, I don't know if I'm a good representation of my city, but are you from Toronto proper? I am yeah, like born and raised Yeah, yeah, yeah, born and raised from the six six from the six Do you call it the six? How about that? Do you actually? No, no, like again, you're not a 12 year old boy. I feel like what everybody knows about Toronto is coming from 12 year old boys that live in the suburbs That's culture, baby. Yeah, it's truly yeah, it's not like my my experience on a daily basis. I mean, I live like on ronsys fail, which is like this You know, like ronsys fail There's no man's own I wish yeah, I know you would notice a man's on ronsys fail. We got it's a lot of strollers and yeah, what if people? What if man started swapping at the Nike tech fleas for literary sport? Oh, hey, maybe that's an idea. Maybe We'll collab with you. Let's see what we can do. I don't know. Yeah, what's okay. All right. So you're not necessarily familiar with the Gerber You smoke them you know, no, I feel like you guys are more familiar. We love that. We're very Tacted, but you are the UK as design director and creative director of literary sport. Is that that's fair? Yeah, that's accurate But those that don't know what is this brand and how maybe how is it different than like other active wear performance brands out there? Um, I think like We we came out of from a running Perspective so I think like first and foremost as much as it's like general active where like the the intention is is that it's a running brand Um, but I think what was kind of a parent for me as someone who has been running for years and like obviously I like fashion I like the gear and like I was I was buying into some of these more niche brands as they were popping up Not to name any but like I You know, you know you weren't satisfied It's not even that like I feel like you have vision in the district you think for It's all very nice stuff and I think that at the end of the day Those were the options that were kind of presenting themselves that weren't Nike that weren't you know Women and the big the big dogs, but I think when that started happening I was like okay cool now. I finally feel like someone's making Something more special that I actually feel you know somewhat connected to but after like Kind of buying into some of that it wasn't really representing like how I want to stress things that I felt like I would actually wear if I wasn't running in them And I think that that's the thing too is that like the quality was there It was nice to actually be feeling like fabrics that were you know like more natural fibers where you know Thing like that But that actually looked like a garment that I would wear not running as well And I think that that's a rare thing that doesn't necessarily exist as you know as much in that space It's still pretty it's pretty sportswear driven So I think it was trying to like kind of blur the line between like things that were right like garments that felt more tailored and And actually felt more like lifestyle driven without being like too snobby Is it like a question of tastefulness like when it really comes down to it where it's like there is this gap of good taste Even with this quote quote good taste average in the market But I also think because running is like evolving and growing as an industry It like it's the same as fashion like how many menswear brands are there right like in you too many I'm not saying I'll say it. No, but it's true But at the same time like there's variety there's option like there's nuance to that right and like I think when you know You look at some of the brands they are really great at building the universe around their brand But it is a pretty specific person and I don't think that everybody falls into that So I think people that don't necessarily dress like the you know rock and roll dude every day But find themselves liking the apparel of certain brands They're gonna you know they're gonna buy because it feels good But it doesn't necessarily represent how they want to dress and I think for us It sounds so obvious, but there was a massive gap in you know people that liked a little bit more minimal less branded Active wear like it just wasn't really there especially with the approach There was more specific to running and like the details and things like that So I mean the first time we ever met in person because we had corresponded a little bit I don't know who exactly said at first. Maybe is you actually Obviously, but it was uh, we were hanging out and I think you explained to Larry sports you a friend of mine that you're like it's a running brand for people who smoke Yes, also You want to rip a sig after after run it's not so serious like it's not so it's not so Prescriptive in the way that oh like I'm a runner and I'm serious about it and I run marathons and I need this or I'm an ultra runner Whatever it's like, I don't know just for a normal person who wants to yeah But is wearing performance fabrics necessary for like 99% of weekend warriors and amateur athletes? I don't think so and I'll say this all the time like I feel like when I ran in university I had this I still own them but like a pair of like England Umbro tiny little running shorts. I used to wear those in this like brave industry and those were like my favorite things to run in You know they they do the exact same thing as any performance piece will do I mean now like getting more into it and like getting to nerd out about some of the fabrics They obviously feel better and like there is a purpose to it But like as a runner, yeah, like you can run a 10k and anything you got like it doesn't need to be like We're not elites and we're not necessarily dressing elites So I'm like, you know shaving 10 seconds off your time's not gonna make a difference for are those other brands that we didn't mention But we all know we're talking about are they like pandering to people that are trying to get morally you think like or like the that that like They're selling a dream that is like not even necessary. Is that part of the marketing you think? I think so well. I think that that's kind of built into the industry right like it's like when we think about like Nike and you know the performance every year like I don't know how much they do it with the garments But with like the shoe the culture of the carbon-plated shoe has been you know like every year someone's coming out with a lighter faster shoe And it's like the race of who like who's athlete won the Berlin and like oh Adidas won this year Oh on won this year and it's like Everyone's racing to get a better shoe and like that also will trickle into like the clothing Obviously people will buy into that brand more. It seems like it's the faster brand or whatever And I think there is an element of that even with the niche brands were I think it also relates to even menswear with like the gork culture being so huge in the last like 10 years Where everybody wanted something that like you know to get coffee and like the most technical jacket that you've ever seen And it's like obviously you don't even need that when you're hiking But there was something about wanting like the most techy thing or the lightest fabric or Dainima's things that like you know no one had ever heard of but it sounds crazy So you want to have the thing that no one else has and I think That maybe is like a bit of a leftover concept that those people are still kind of chasing I do think with some of them they do have you know Rossers athletes that are like ultra runners and it is important like if you're running these 100ks or like Crazy overnight like there is a point where the gear actually makes a difference and and for their athletes It doesn't make any difference. Yeah, but if you're running three miles like no And that's not really who we're we're marketing to and that's not who we're making clothing for or so the tone in like the Arena of amateur sports is very gladiatorial. It's very like performer fucking guy. So broy. Um, it's very yeah, it's very like Yeah, very broy very violent very brutal It is it is and then like but for the most part people are just like having or doing Doing sports like just have fun. Yeah, that's the point. Maybe like make themselves look better naked Yes, that too. Yeah exactly But like in the meantime we want them to look better clothes. That's also true Yeah, I was at the same time. There's like well, I mean, it's very it's better here It's better and you know, Paris and other cities I've gone to but in Toronto like there is a leg like You know when I've been occasionally to run clubs and things like that where you see that people are you know Really stuck in their ways when it comes to active wear and it might not be like Their choice but they've had the same kind of rady we women shorts for 10 years that they're they're still wearing on a run and I'm like No, where's something better? I think it's like if you're someone that cares about self-presentation and aesthetics and Quality and taste and all that stuff you should also be applying that to when you're just like sweating and trying to get some Get some miles in for sure and I feel like so many people now That like don't not even that so we're culture so huge it is But like I also think there's so many people that like kind of don't like going out anymore like you know That's going out for them is like running sure at a run. It's their social activity So it is almost kind of like now there's a consciousness there There wasn't there before to be like oh damn like I'm meeting people at this run club I should look good like you know if someone's trying to pick up on her own right you want to also dress in a way that like represents Some person shows some personnel right you know that you maybe have style In what you're wearing to run as opposed to just like you're every day. So uh, what are your thoughts on run clubs? I mean I understand why they exist. I've had like you know, I've Especially with like you know this project spending some time going to like activations and runs and trying to submerge into that culture or understand it a little bit better I have participated But I just brave you've embedded in a war zone. Yeah, I certainly I'm brave of you to say. Yeah And I will say that I feel like there's some people that are like kind of doing it right But for the most part is not for me And I also find that I don't typically find that I relate to most people there like you know, you try to Connect with someone chat with them on the river. They're riding you're like, oh boy. Like what's this person? Slow down a bit here. Yeah, I'm like, yeah, just gonna tie the shoe But it's always like the pace. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I'll catch you But it's like a lot of like it's very like graphic design bro like Kind of worlds are like is everyone trying to get is everyone trying to fuck a hundred percent I feel like that's yeah, I mean like, you know, not you know, like that's not the engagement. I'm having with people obviously But there's definitely an energy of that and also just like sexual perversion I don't know. I think when there's any sort of club in like this is just an observation and any sort of club often is people who've got No, other personality traits get them get them Jackie I'm not saying this is for everyone, but you know when they people are like this is this is all I've got like this is I'm a runner and I go to a run club and that's all I've got and I'm not saying that's everything I just feel like there's an element of that to the people where maybe there's not much else to talk about like I don't know It's not it's not for me personally Running as a solo sport. I'll run with friends That I'll run. What do you prefer solo running with with homies? Yeah, yeah, I got a couple of friends I got a couple of friends that I'll run with but like as opposed to like a group of 60 people like sure That's probably taken over taken over the streets But that's what it's like and then you kind of feel embarrassed to be part of that when like yeah Like there's like old ladies on the sidewalk that can't like get through because you Don't pack it No, I was just it feels like a little bit silly sometimes and like I think there's good and bad to everything But I think as it's grown it's become this thing that feels a little bit like Is running a fad like where it's where to now or do you think this is kind of where the industry will continue I think it's going to continue I think it'll come in and out of like conversation because I remember 10 years ago running with a run club in Toronto and it was smaller at the time, but it definitely Was like maybe like a wave of running getting popular then and you saw you know people talking about it then and then kind of like Went down. It's the same with like I'm sure you know like tennis comes in and out of popularity Yeah And it becomes like a trendy kind of thing to like or golf, you know like it's just I think sports in general are always gonna be like Top of mind and active wear and performances. It was gonna be something, you know I think more so now than ever like there's more opportunity in the space, but I don't think it's a fad I think it might be just like Controlling the narrative in terms of it. It's certainly like very visible. Yeah, but you know Eventually that visibility might fade a little bit, but people are so obviously gonna be doing it 100% yeah As a runner like would you rather like be less popular or as someone who's like trying to sell close to runners would you rather it go nuclear? Oh, I'm down with the popularity. Okay. Oh, yeah, it's good for the bottom line, right? It's it's good for everything Like I feel like at the end of the day like sure Get out there get running, but I yeah, I don't necessarily feel like I need to be like Immersed into the culture in the same way as maybe other people do do you listen to music when you run? Yeah, we do listen to Sometimes it's embarrassing. Well, as of recently as of recently I've just been putting on like the strokes radio has been the one recently because there's so many like it's an easy one That I don't have to make the playlist and I can just put that on and it's just like everything's a banger, but Um, I try to like distract yourself from the pain. You're trying to like get it like into a rhythm like It depends on the run if it's a long run Uh, I feel like I kind of want it to be more mellow because it just kind of like shows you out like sometimes yes If it's a shorter quick run, you know sometimes a little Sabrina Carpenter gets the hard way. Let's go. Yeah, something and best friends I've heard people listen to podcasts because it's just like they just associate I do sometimes actually I do sometimes listen to a podcast if it's like if I got to put in like a 20k like All at least part of it throwing a podcast because it passes the time. That's what we're here for people in case you get anything You know, yeah, yeah, keep going keep going You don't quit. You got this. It's been 25 minutes Please Your design shop so like you know as a fabric nerd what textile in a recent literary sport collection or upcoming has really gotten you super stoked Um, one of the fabrics that we use quite often is we have this Japanese nylon that's kind of like this crinkly sheer nylon um, we initially Use it for a few pieces in our spring 25 collection Um, and it's become for me like I I grab that every time like it's kind of like the perfect jacket in shorts Um, so I just love the movement. It's a super quiet fabric too. So it just like looks good feels good You can sneak up on you're out. You can sneak 100 go ninja mode honestly go ninja mode. Yeah, because you know, you don't get that swishing of the nylon Um, but we have a few pieces coming up for spring 26 and then the the the button up shirt that I was talking about That's going to be in the same fabric. So yeah, crinkly nylon Yeah, yes, we're doing like a few colors and like a nice like nylon shirt Um, Taylor shirt you so the brand is kind of is is divided into or the way it's merchandise is running and lifestyle does your Design approach and creative direction change depending on which category you're like working on at that moment I mean a little bit obviously in terms of like pieces that feel necessary for like the actual Element of sport like we we obviously we'll start introducing um, you know, like we did an insulated tight for fall 25 So things that I'm not going to put it tight into the lifestyle category. It's just not something that I think people are ready for just yet I mean we're we're going tighter on we're going tighter on pants, but I don't know for we're quite there yet But later exporters are general, but I think that there's a general like movement towards a slim We're in that cycle. We're whatever fucking portion of it, you know, it's always but I think um We think about that obviously slightly more technically But with a lot of the lifestyle pieces. We're using similar fabrics We are still using uh technical fabrics in the lifestyle pieces But as you pointed out like we're putting a re-rezip on to a half sit whereas, you know I'm using like a YKK Like performance zipper on a running jacket So I think in those ways we differentiate in terms of like maybe some of the hardware or like You know the silhouette is more, you know conducive to movement for for for the running collection and then you know for obviously a Terry hoodie or like a sweat pant You're not necessarily gonna running you could, but it's not really why we're designing it, but I can't Everything can for the most heart cross over being like lifestyle running Yeah, very much and I think it's also like from you know My perspective is like coming from a styling background It's also like trying to like see the pieces live together. It's modular. It's much there it is It is some usm hauler right there, but we are like basically trying like I think that that was also like why we even kind of started to lean into the lifestyle category was seeing a lot of gaps in terms of You know how it would present shooting a campaign be like well, you know It feels like it needs a pant here like that. I'll be honest. That was the meant That was a mentality. I was like I feel like as we weren't necessarily initially coming out of from a perspective to build out Lifestyle as much it was like maybe we'll have a hoodie Maybe we'll have a track pan, but I think as we started to kind of like build out what the brand looked like It felt very much like it needed that to support who the person was and also like to make sure that like We were presenting it in a way that was a whole vision And we didn't have to supplement some of the pieces from outside brands or things like that and And now it's like that is an equal category for us in terms of sales and a lot of our customers who are not runners have really bought into the brand in that way that they feel like they can also Wear a lot of the clothing and not need to be like active to wear it. So I think that's really worked for us between the two running in lifestyle Which is a performing better? It's a good question. It's pretty close, but I think this current season the lifestyle really like blew up for us And I think go lazy people Yes, it's a lifestyle. Yeah, it's a lifestyle. I don't want to look like I work out is a lifestyle Yeah, and and I feel like I just feel like maybe it's also because some of the press we've gone or people that have ended up posting about it that kind of Have a certain audience that maybe is not as tied to the running community. It was like, oh These pants are perfect. Is that surprising to you guys that it's like you know being embraced by like Fashion media or the faster count versus like the running crowd is that shocking at all or or is that like that better? I don't know. To be honest, it was kind of the intention So I'm happy to see it like I mean we we've never really like specifically seeked it out But I think just naturally I think our approach to the brand was coming from a more fashion perspective We actually initially were kind of even targeting more of a female audience in the sense that most running brands are very male Center and I think that that was something that for me personally Yeah, like I mean, I wear a lot of menswear, but at the same time I was finding that there was not something like that felt a bit softer It was all that kind of aggressive like super performance from and stuff. So for us it was Yeah, exactly a fast bitch Run fast friend. Yeah, I'm all the fast bitches Hey bitches No, but it's like that kind of thing where I just feel like Nobody was catering to that person and there is obviously that's a huge market that we didn't even realize like It's like I feel like it's with anything. It sounds so obvious But it's like if you are finding that you can't you know find something for yourself It's probably a hundred other people who feel the same way. So and now everyone's on GLP 1 So it's like they they got a dress like they look like they were on you exactly. They need it. They need it It's a facade now. So yeah, yeah, they can't cover their tracks Just came from a run. Yeah, yeah, what up? Okay, so like the fashion community has embraced it because obviously it just looks fucking good What else has moved the needle for you guys like you did a little Showroom in Paris, you know pop up New York. Is it like getting people at big socials to wear it? Is it fashion press roundups like the best jackets to wear right now like what actually helps you guys It's hard to say like I think so far like what's crazy is like the substax really moving all that's been the thing and kind of surprising ones I don't know if I should mention anyone. I don't know if I'm gonna shout anyone out, but that's fair I do feel like when we don't fit to wear a subset But like I do feel like there's a few people in particular that when you know They mentioned it or they style it. We see like a lot of traction you want to shout them out? Becky Melinsky is one that's you know, we were say like I mean, she's lovely But I think we were surprised that that would translate to the same customer So that was a huge one obviously Landra's big one and Joliel Johnson who's lovely. Yeah, Joliel's amazing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah And so I feel like those are ones that have been you know really kind to us and they've you know Shared a few times and we've seen a lot of traction there, but I think a lot of people like again Like these people are not necessarily involved in running whatsoever And I think they were connected to like the styling and the presentation And I think that that's been also nice for us to see the like because it's active in a lot of times It's the touch feel that sells people. Yeah, we have to find a way to show this and present this to the right audience that would get people Engaged in the brand without having to like you know be present and actually touch and feel everything So that's a question that comes up a lot whenever people bring up literary sports to me is they're like Yeah, I wish I could like feel it touch it Yeah, I was like shopping online and like people love it. Yeah, what's going on. I mean nothing nothing physical You know as a retail space, but I think for us like doing more of these events and activations that we that we can be present and also like opening up wholesale In you know in markets that I know we're you know We're probably not going to be as president like in Europe and things like that. I think that's helpful for us to you know Just have some of that they can drop in somewhere and touch and feel like we Are in a spot in London called knees up and that was our first stockest Last year and it was great We still get people all the time that message from London and we'll direct them there and be like you know If you want to touch and feel stuff you can head over there, but I mean it is it is hard Especially for the running stuff. I think for the lifestyle stuff you know people in general are kind of like I know what a hoodie is going to feel like I you know It's not a hard sell in that way, but it's true for like a pair leggings or like a pair of half-tight someone wants to try that on I guess it's probably not shocking to you that like fashion nerds care Probably more about fabric than like jocks who might want that for performance, right? 100% yeah, and those are the people that I was asked about things or like where is this pretty? Usually at an annoying level if we're being totally frank Which is interesting because I feel like we're kind of like anti that in a lot of ways like as much as we are like I source a lot. I was just in Portland at the functional fabric fair this week. So I'm sourcing some new fabrics And I feel like it's one of those things that we do put a lot of time and effort into it But we don't really talk about it in that way because I think that that also puts you in a certain category When you are this like you know telling the story about all your fabrics and becoming this like that's who you are That's the definition of your brand as we are This like techie whatever it is still and boring for sure. Yeah, and I think no romance in that really no romance in that There's no story in that. I think for us there is elements of that But I think we just want to see it as a bigger picture and I think that Ultimately the customer that we're actually you know relating to ourselves like I don't really buy things that way I care about fabric, but I don't buy it in the sense that that's the thing that shoved down my throat Like I like to go in and if I touch something and you know, it feels incredible then great But like I don't think that's the only thing like you want you want to buy into like a story you want to buy into a universe right? Yeah, a universe and as all the brands that I love it's a universe So I feel like it's finding what that is that feels actually actually genuine to us and in the brand so So how did that so like you talked about how the lifestyle Horshing about because it was something was missing in like the imagery that you put together And creating a brand identity for a small brand in a category that is Dominated and very top heavy by a few big dogs and has this like Emerging cool guy tier that maybe everything kind of looks and has a certain vibe but like Does the how important is the imagery that you guys have worked on in in terms of creating that brand identity to kind of separate yourselves from Everything else that is out there I actually think that's been the most important thing because I think that 99% of the time someone that you know reaches out or connects with us It's been because of the imagery they got an ad they you know they saw a campaign They saw it featured somewhere and again with something what's that they saw the styling it's all the styling Shout out myself Little pound of that never heard No, I think it is something that maybe again like it all seems so obvious to me And maybe it's because I've just seen so much of this world for so long And it's obvious what's missing but I think it's something fresh for people because when you look at these bigger brands It all starts to meld together because whether or not any of them was doing it first everyone else is doing it now And I think that you start to see the bigger brands and and like you know the other kind of adjacent brands doing the same thing And they all kind of feel like you could be looking at the same campaign over and over again So I think there was all these things that right away in our mind were like well I never see a running campaign shot indoors. I never see you know And it's like not to be oppositional but it's like laying down. Yes. Not running at all actually Like a lot of imagery is very very still. That's intentional It's very intentional and I think we we put in movement where it feels like it adds something to it But I think that there's just so much of it and it's so easy to create that type of imagery That we see all the time that I think there's more thought put into The actual styling you can see the garments better this way I think it actually makes you want to buy certain pieces because you actually can see How they can all come together and we're just like kind of trying to make it easy for people designing it In a way that it does all make sense together and you can't really mess it up too much if you know if you if it's not you guys Being contrarian like yeah, what was like um? Yeah, what is like the motivation besides just like being different like Also just creating something that I wanted to see in this phase to be honest like as a consumer as well Like I think it just came from what like what attracts me to brands like what Style of imagery what kind of things feel more true to myself in like in terms of like styling it in a lot of ways That I would just wear it. So that's really what it comes down to is like Yeah, like I made this running jacket that I really like and I would probably wear it with this this and this So I'm just really it's it's selfish in a lot of ways because it really just comes down to like being able to like have a vision of how you would want to dress and then being able to share Fear that it might not resonate if it is for you guys solely yourselves or for sure Yeah, I think it's not always gonna hit every time for people But I think so far the the feedback's been super positive and I think I don't know. I think as soon as you start creating for other people It's always it always feels like contrived and I think as long as like it's just you know Maintaining that genuine kind of like how we relate to the industry and that might evolve too like and I've Other sports might come into play or things that feel like natural for the brand like it's not always gonna be so specific to what it is now there there is room for evolution and I think As long as it's you know something that we feel confident about I don't think it's gonna I don't know people don't like it too bad Welcome is a lot of the styling that we see in the imagery is that Like what's the relationship between your personal style and then like what we see in the images that you are in control Because I'll see you and you're wearing the track pants with like ro loafers in a way that looks fucking sick But you never I would never think about like incorporating performance where into just like more kind of everyday outfits Yeah, now I've actually started myself to do that with the literary spot I'm like wearing it underneath like a quarter zip or something where it's like a little a little texture because it has all this holes and shits Whatever the technical term is Yeah, what's the relationship between like your personal style and then what we're seeing in the litspo imagery I mean it like it's supposed free. You can take that honestly. I heard it before which is crazy damn I wish I could give you credit It didn't even face me that you said it because I was like yeah totally you've caught on to this boat I think it's well like it's always kind of how I dress like I think like a lot of My inspiration just forever is always been like a little bit of a mix of like sportswear with something more elevated And I think that uh with the styling a lot of it does feel like true to how I might wear something But then also I try to also like see a bit of the flip side of like Adding a bit more of a feminine touch onto certain things It might not be my style, but maybe more influenced by like how fran dresses We're like, you know trying to find those ways to cater to someone who is leaning more feminine Because I am way more menswear driven than than women's wear so it's a better dresser. You a fran. Oh I mean, I think she would agree that it's me God damn. I love her. No, you know what? Friends love her, but she does like she does have fantastic style And there's a lot of days that she'll come out and wear something and I'm like damn that's that's good But we share clothing which is nice. We have the same shoe size. So oh hell yeah It's very interchangeable and I do feel like when when I buy something new with like it's usually that becomes like the thing that she takes and then she'll wear it Oh, that jacket's sick and she's like that's ours. Yeah, that's our jacket those are our shoes I mean she benefits way more from that than I do because like I like it's more of a one way or it's a more of a one way one way flow Because like she'll wear these loafers now that I bought them, but I can't wear her ballet flat I mean, I could wear her ballet flat. That's how you're shit, but I don't think I'll be wearing them You know what I mean like so it's like she benefits more from like the androgynous kind of side of things whereas I don't benefit from But are we see okay, so but what we're seeing in the lips bow imagery that's kind of drawn from like your personal sweat Yeah, I think so like I think we it's a lot about like what we're kind of feeling inspired by especially the styling because it happens so Close to when the imagery comes out a lot of that inspiration is just like things that maybe You know the week before or like oh, this is sick. We saw something that inspired us or something like old that kind of resurface that We were reminded about something or layering or things like that So I feel like it is very much like how we want to present is that a newer phenomenon? Stylist like leaning into personal style versus like creating more like conceptual outfits. Is that like a more recent phenomenon? I think it depends on what you're styling like I think like in the brand universe. I think I don't know what's hard to say because I do work with other brands and and There's not the same level of freedom I think there are certain signature things that you can kind of build that are like as a stylist That's kind of why they would hire you and I think that it's important to have like signature things that you kind of do They put yourself into the brand but ultimately I think you also have to like play within you know the primers of what that brand is What's your signature? What's my signature tank top over the tea? No, I wouldn't say that's my signature Although I do like the vibe of that but like tonal on tonal tank top tonal on tonal I like I mean I feel like when I look at it's funny because I look back at things that I saw like Eight nine years ago and I was doing like the layered t-shirt saying I feel like someone Recently like called it out and was like oh that inspired by another brand and I'm like now I've been doing this for years Been doing this for a while. I mean, it's nothing new like I mean everyone layers a t-shirt. It's nothing crazy But I think like signature is like I do think like things be a little less Chris the little less pristine. I like something a little untaxer. I like a wrinkle where it shouldn't be because I think when things feel so Clean like a lot of styling people or even like with imagery people will just like retouch out all the wrinkles And get rid of the life to it. So I think for me a signature would be to like have a little lace on tie or something But I said sitting not quite steamers hate this guy. Yes sit down in the pants before we Let's get a big wrinkle. Where do you okay besides yourself like can you talk about where you're pulling inspiration from especially with For performance brand like historically most performance clothing has sucked a lot of ass. Yeah, like where do you where you getting Where are you getting inspiration from whether to design imagery campaigns that it's oral? I mean, I think all of it It kind of comes from like just what you see in the streets a lot of the time like I feel like it's a little bit of everything like seeing what's kind of Currently happening in a world that is so far from performance is actually often what what sparks some idea of something and I think Well, we're gonna get big jorts I mean we kind of did though we did I didn't you get a pair of those the the shorts we did last season The like they're not jorts, but like I got a pair of the nightline ones. The crinkly nylon pants. Oh you have the pants We did a short version of that Some stuff that we haven't coming for next season like it's just playing with like I don't want to at all say suiting but like some slightly more tailored jackets But done in like some waterproof fabrics and things like that. So things that still feel like They have a place in in the sportswear world, but maybe you can you know Wear them outside of support. So I think it's just things that I want to wear how do we make them sports wear? I think that's kind of what we're trying to do a little bit more It's kind of has been making soft was it observation that's been driven by literary sport where it's like We have quite luxury we have eth leisure and it feels like literary sport is at the I don't tip the spear of kind of this like Emerging third thing that is maybe a blend of all the above, but it's for stylish people who are acted, which is like one of them and bigger than the sum of its parts because those two previous things are kind of like Whatever yeah, or played or or terrible, you know, yeah exactly I mean, I I appreciate that because I think that's kind of the goal like people have called it as eth leisure We obviously don't like that. It's a terrible word. We hate that to be clear. We hate that and I every time I see it come up like in an article. I'm like no No But I really just the sour stuff. Yeah, but I think it's it's good like I think that the thing that has been happening a lot in the past year Is that you know people have these kinds of questions because they haven't seen it yet That tells me at least we're doing something that's not really existing yet and like, you know, people will try to compare us to quiet luxury brands Outside of sport and things like that and for us were like what do they say the row for running? Yeah, that's the yeah Yeah, but you know you hate that they also like that Do better media but what it tells me is that you have no other point of reference like not to hate on anyone But I'm like if you're saying that like we are certainly not offended It's not a bad thing to say, but it just also tells me that you don't have any other point of reference That's your idea when you see something minimal it must be the row and it's like The inspiration and when we like source reference samples and the things that we're really looking at It's so far from the row that it's like it's nice that that's like you're obvious comparison But it just tells me that you didn't dive deeper or look at it But it's always easy for the consumer. It's easy to digest the business level regardless I mean it sells product because people who are a row customer can afford to buy it so I'm not I'm not like mad about it by any means But I just think that we have way more to offer in that in that way and it's it's nice that there isn't like We will be what people compare to in like five years as the goal. Do you have a name for that third thing or is there some? Is there like not that things need to be named but like when you got like is there's like some internal way that you guys Describe like what you're designing is there. No, it's just literary sports just let's bow. It's let's bow No, that's let's bow baby It's just like because I don't think like and maybe it's because we're such a small team and there isn't this traditional design Language and you know, there's not this like formal way of going about collections It's like friend and I sit down and we talk about things that we want to see show up we talk about color palettes We talk about pieces that we'd love to wear and then we work with the design team and we build out those pieces There's not this like you know, there's not these people over our heads talking about like what needs to show up Because this is what consumers want and there's not this pressure to brand book or something. Yeah, exactly Merchandizers and trend forecasters That's us we're doing it all we're doing it all so I think for us it's just like really there's like an intuitive element to it right now and and because there isn't a point of reference in this world right now We kind of have an open lane to kind of build out what that world could be and and that's kind of what we're doing I mean, is that your own competitive edge that you know that as a small upstart brand You have over fucking behemoths like Nike already this I think so that is like you're creating a lane that People can only call the row for running. Yeah runners. Yeah, and they're all obviously like I can I can already see it It's happening. They're trying to like for sure move into that space. Oh, yeah Yeah, I think there's inspiration They're drafting off of you guys there's definitely inspiration. I've seen a lot of you guys seen a lot of orders. She's about to be avert it We have actually yeah, and we've had orders Some people don't even they can't get a peelbox. Let's just say some brands don't even hide it Like you'll see the name and you know what they do for certain brands So I'm not gonna name names, but there is quite a few brands that are ordering products flattering or annoying We're flattering. Okay, still night. You're unnoticed Michael Jordan I see you MJ here too. No, but it's I think at the end of the day. It's like Flattering more than anything to be like such a new brand and to have people already like Bitey for shit because I think for us like I guess when you feel like you have Like a multitude of ideas that I'm not I don't feel stressed about that. You know when you're like it's okay I got something else like I feel that shit. I don't even care. It's old. It's already done. That's two seasons No, but like not even in that way, but I just feel like when you are like doing something genuine Like you kind of know the blueprint like you know where to go next and like other people can obviously Start to reference it and if anything that's just flattering. You're just building out this you're just helping You're just helping tell the story that we're telling so what are you seeing are you seeing people rip off the product? Is it the imagery the vibe the editor? I think it's going to be the vibe to be honest because the product like you know We talk about this all the time like there's only so many different ways you can make a sports bra There's only so many different ways you can make a five in short like yes I think we are approaching it differently, but it's a short, you know like When it comes to like running pieces like we obviously try to use you know fabrics and details that feel different from those brands But if that starts getting copied, you know, what is it at the end of the day that feels like we have ownership And it really is like the language and the visual language that we've created for the brand and the overall kind of like vibe of who that person is And I just don't know that that will ever be able to Translate from a brand like Nike they're never going to be able to hit that same Feeling for people and I think that that's what will always be able to own and I think it's not that something else can exist in this world I just think that that's the one thing that we have that feels very genuine to who we are Yeah, that's that's a niche versus like mass right and like a company that big needs to remain mass Otherwise they're gonna fucking shit the bit exactly again And I just don't think that like they can capture that same customer. I've got ideas so other things they could do And they're available for purchase exactly I got ideas Okay, let's talk about something that always does come up when literary sport is mentioned in the conversation It's the price point. Yeah, how do you explain to people? It goes in that hefty price tag I mean, it's well as you guys know with which the road for runners It's right there in the bag line guys. Can you see that article? That's why Somebody said it so That's why no, I I think it's like we are spending the time to to use expensive fabrics And because it's a smaller collection. We're not ordering mass amounts of you know of of the fabric So it's like the price point is higher it is and there's it's quality a lot goes into it Is it uh, all natural? Um, like I mean obviously some of the like perforated stuff. They're synthetic fibers. It's not yeah, but yeah, but it's mostly like marinos and breathable fabrics. Yeah, like we're where possible and where it makes the most sense we use predominantly marinos We you know, obviously like Japanese terries and um, you know, most of the mills we're working with are other in France or Japan or Italy So the price point is just higher on the fabric we're using But I think that that also for us is intentional. Yeah, we'd rather sit in a higher price point Like the clothing that we want to wear ourselves too because it is again, it's pretty personal. So it's like I don't also want to spend $200 on a pair of shorts that were like Fabrics from China or whatever like because I think for us it's it's important to to put that into it Throw gang wouldn't you like to look a little younger maybe get a few more compliments on your skin or just feel more confident when you look in the mirror That's exactly what a caldera lab is here for their high-performance skin care is designed specifically for men It's simple effective and yes backed by science and a consumer study 100% of men's and their skin looks smoother and healthier 96.9 notice improved hydration and texture and 93.8 reporter more youthful appearance And it's not just talk caldera lab spends years developing and testing each formula with leading cosmetic chemists to make sure it actually works If they don't love it, they don't release it That's right Lawrence You know, we just wrapped up turkey day. 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Oh, yeah And you know this ad sounds so good because I'm spending the holiday in Mexico But you know one thing I didn't leave behind back in the states and that's all of my caldera lab skincare including the base layer A nutrient rich moisturizer that absorbs quickly and provides a non greasy matte finish So I look my best whether I'm in or out of the country Whether you're starting fresh or upgrading your routine caldera lab makes skin care simple and effective Do not settle for drugstore junk or steal your partner's products guys Elivate your routine the skincare made for you head to caldera lab.com/throngfits and use thrown fits at checkout for 20% off your first order We also mentioned this like you see these run club rows wearing, you know Shorts that they've had for the last 15 years and it's like yeah a lot of the stuff does you stick around for? 15 years and if you're looking at your closet like it does not degrade I don't know what I'm saying if you're wearing if you look at what you're wearing in the gym and sheds probably like 15 year old stuff So it is like oh fuck like if you want to get into cost per wear it's like Yeah, if you invest in this shit, it is gonna last literally decades Where to the bar afterward? It's gonna look cool Yeah, let's do is you get sucked from your run club Well, those well No, how many make a lot of ultra this little sports could look great on the floor of your bedroom This is the campaign to do for us. Yeah But it's true that honestly, that's a great point because I yeah, I feel like at the end of the day If yeah, if you spend like 400 bucks on a sweater or like a like We made a little cardigan little merino cardigan like a lot of girls are wearing it just day to day It's like it's not what should cost me It's also just one things cost, but if you're wearing it daily and it's not just for you know like go into the gym or just for activity Then I feel like it is worth it and that's maybe also a lot of the thought of it too is that you know like you're not spending money on Just active right? It's a wardrobe stable. Right. Are you in let's go ahead to tell when you're running for working out? When I'm running. Yeah, it's definitely well. Yeah, I mean working out I don't know. I do a little hit work out here, but Maybe kettlebell swing or the running fits before you were able to drip yourself out in your own shit um Again, I'd be hugging some other brands, but I mean I guess we said the The old umbrose shorts. Yeah, for sure Were you in performance stuff or were you in like like a flannel button up or whatever? I was in a mix of things like I have a lot of vintage tees that like I still have that were very much like my go-to for running just because obviously the weight of it is perfect Um slobby slobby team. Yeah, I have one that says cool running's on it. And that was that's fine It's so good. It's like a paper thin like yeah, it's like a paper thin like baby blue t-shirts. I like that man on it. I wish that would have been cooler Um, but yeah, like stuff like that. I don't know. I yeah, and definitely some of the newer niche brands. I was wearing Piece but like again mainly men's were driven which is more noticeable to me in Active and running where than it is in like lifestyle pieces like I can wear men's wear you know day-to-day But when you're wearing like pair of running shorts that are not made for women. They fit me. Yeah, yeah So those were the kinds of things that I started to like notice the gaps where you know some of these premium like niche brands We're not quite catering to like women's silhouettes. They're just they're on the shrink-it and pink-it tip Absolutely That's true. Yeah, the worst. What's the what's the average running fit you see these days and how bad is it? Well There's a lot of uh, I shouldn't say this Hey, yeah, yeah, come on. There's a lot of CLA hats. Huh? Do you know this brand? The fuck is that CLA Cialis CLA It's this brand. I think that they're from Montreal so I don't want to hate on it But they're it became this thing Okay, so it's giving it's giving like five panels supreme hats from like 2013. Oh, I yeah, you've seen these. Yeah, I'm sure they started getting like quirky with them Neon panels and all Big branding across the front so I feel like I just have a hard time with the five panel. That's being getting with like that kind of Is it a six panel? What do you know? How many panels too many panels? It's a tough shape panels, but it's like a 24 panel hat and it's got like it's got like the Pillow on top. Yeah, you might as well. Yeah, and it's got like the like like like the what's it called like the webbing like Strap the whole thing is yeah, it just feels the quick tie shit quick tie shit and then I don't know It just looks a bit like dorky to me, so it'll be like that with like Maybe you're wearing like a lavender like you're trying to be a little bit like out there with like a lavender jacket and like Parking marketing agency guy exactly like just like some really crazy like is I don't know like that's when that guy gets crazy With this fits is one he's like he's feeling he's talking in the streets running like tie-dye socks on Oh, fun socks. Yeah, like a neon shoe like there's a lot of color going on that I'm like, I don't know or there's like the They're safety. There's also the all black the all black fit. You know what is about that those the health goth I don't know like I mean, I guess literally there's a lot of all you know, you can wear an all black fit You know within that as well But yeah, mostly it's like it's just some of these like the colors of literally I think are for me like one of the main draws where it is like Depth there's a depth to every color whether it is a black whether it is like a burgundy not just like pastel and bright and yeah And we pick them like like we also pick the pantones. We dip everything. So we are like custom coloring everything We you know like we have coming for for spring next season We have this like kind of deeper shard tree. So that's like our neon like if we're ever going to do color It's that is probably as bright as it's going to go but like things that hopefully all kind of work together So that you can't be the guy that's like wearing like Purple and like tie-dye. You're gonna make it so that some guy can embarrass himself. I'm sure that's like that's a value prop That's his own problem not not not not from a garment perspective. I don't know. He'll do his thing. We'll save you from yourself Just let us yeah exactly. I mean we can't control we can only control so much we can do we can what do you think of when you see Someone like pairing literary sport with like wax shit. Oh, I don't mind that. I think it's great. Oh, yeah There's some black no wax. Oh, no, well, we have yet to see like we're not like from you know At least like from our customer base so far like anything we're tagged and it's all people who are putting it together I think I think we've created a bit of a template for them So I think at least for what I'm seeing so far It's like someone kind of almost trying to like replicate what they've seen in the campaign or like putting like you know The wide like pant with like a nicer you know sweater like a cashmere or something and that feels like Okay, you got it like you're yeah, and I'm not saying that you would have black customers But as James and I have on designers and as like let's just say like fashion even menswear gets more popular We're always wondering like what goes through the designer creator's mind when they see this thing that they care so much about They work so hard on like Worn badly even if it we can we can breathe subjective, but like you know what you see it like What is that thought process? Well, I mean, I think at the end of the day It's like you you'll you'll never be able to control that right there's literally nothing you can do It's disappointing to say at least because you're like wow you really missed the point of that piece But like I think at the end of the day like so far like I think what we make so far is quite minimal that I don't know what you would do Yeah, I'm sure I'm sure People will find a way, but like I'm not sure what else they will yeah You're like I'm determined I'll be the one to do it. They absolutely will. Yeah, um, what's up with the name literary sport Tell us about that. So that's another thing I get a lot of besides people because we get a lot of that too Yeah, um, I mean so even though now we call it let's bow. It's let's let's bow. Yeah, we're just gonna change it to let's bow now But what is it like what where did that come from? What does it even mean? How did it apply to the brand? I mean, it doesn't really mean anything, but basically One of the founders He went to school for literature. He's really into like writing poetry You know more of a sensitive soul he he was a big runner. He's a little bit older and I think for him it was There was a different name, which I won't tell you, but there was a different. Oh, is that bad? Okay. No, no It's not even not even necessarily that it wasn't good, but um Basically when Fran and I were brought on exactly what it was how to no, but like Fran and I got hired when there was just the name for the brand Okay, so that's the one thing that existed was a name and um there like okay now do it do your job now They stop this go do it see what you can do no, but and there was like a nice story behind the name, but then um Let's just say like, you know, we started working on it and everything kind of came to be what it is and about Three or four months before the brand launched uh there was a conflict with with something. Oh, okay, so literary sport came very late in the game and For for good or for bad I'll take the blame because it was my name Um, and the reason being was we were like let's just be literal about it like let's not try to, you know Use a foreign word that meets something else or try to like have one of those hard. See Alice Exactly have something that's hard to pronounce people are like what is this uh, we're like, you know Something that was important was the the kind of like poetic literary aspect of the brand. It's Active and I was like just you're pandering to your your boss call it is keep it simple. Yeah Let's not like overcomplicated and you know, we were all kind of like, I don't know, but like I think it's grown It's grown on all of us, but it is what it is and every it is very like literal every product is named after a poet Or female writer. No, just male and female. How do you how do you be like? Oh, you know what? That's a choice Ask Fran Fran names all the products. Yeah. Yeah, and sometimes You know, there was a season where there was like four different J names and I'm like what did you do? She's going off a better place. Yeah, yeah, we're like the Joni shore the Joan like there was a lot of that But you know, she was like, oh, I didn't even think about that It's a lot. It's a lot every season to come out with like a ton of new names, but yeah, that's that's all Fran And there is like consideration taken into like what the garment is and trying to relate it like, you know Something does feel like obviously like big striped hat would be a sus You know, things like that I'm a coffee writer at my like my trade as well We do have like I mean there was like subtle things like we have like It's hopefully finally coming first spring 26th, but we have like a running hat coming like in an island That we designed and like we call that the burns like robby burns But it's also because my middle name is Bernadette and sometimes they call me Jackie Burns. So JB J burns. So it's technically named definitely technically going to be named after me But it's right. I like a hat as you can see. Yes. So how many handles on that on that bad boy? You know what there's there might be there might be seven It's not really panels. We got some seams happening. Okay. Yeah, I feel like you see I wear it like I'm usually wearing it at the events. It's just a black hat. Yeah, an island hot hat Well, normally you bring a mu mu hat with the Emily Don Long pin in it. Yeah, that's true. That's true. We retired the mu That retired, you know, it comes and goes. I'm really trying to like break it. I'm trying to break it down though But I wanted to naturally break down. So I really try like I don't want to be the the one that's like Say, uh, you want to naturally torture. Yeah, so I'm really trying like any time I'm on vacation I take it so I can like the vacation hat. I love that move. I got one too, but it won't like it's so sturdy And I'm not break down. It's quality too. God dammit. It's so thick I've like put in the washroom jam like in this thing just our fading already like it's holding up way too well. So shadow Good quality truly. You get what you pay for. Yeah, do you have you do the thing where you like you have one accessory that you wear every single day for like, I don't know, a certain amount. You're just like that's your thing. Yeah, it happens I get I kind of get like into like one thing for a while. Like I mean, I have a lot of hats like that's To friends like demise like half the closet is like hats and Lots of hats. No, I'm sure you guys have a lot of hats. Yeah, like people probably send you tons of hats or you know That's the one easy thing to pick up all the time. So I do have a lot of hats, but I'll get into like a mode of like one hat fixation and then because bar like the uniform. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's uh What's the best thing about working with your life partner friend? We actually worked really well together. I know like it's scary for some people to work with their partner Because all sorts of things can come up, but I think We've been together now for like 12 years and F Miller launched like 11 years ago And we kind of started that together like obviously very much friend But like we worked on that brand together and and you know kind of bringing it to life and Intentionally worked on it together. You kind of was like it because you're already together and the brand was in the works It wasn't in the works. Yeah, that it came about like when we first started dating she was Yeah, it was just like a whole thing that she was interested in starting and that kind of like I was styling at the time But we were you know, I just think working in the creative space you worked in the fashion industry as well And it's just like something we we started to kind of naturally work on together to bring to life And like obviously doing all the imagery and everything for that and and the branding the building of that brand We kind of got used to having a flow of working together and You know with styling there's oftentimes when like I would have a few shoots going at one So I'd bring her on to assist for some of them just because we'd already be working on something together And I'd be like all right, you can come on set and Well, we'll get you to do this as well at the same time So I think for take the girl of a work day literally literally To the job and then you know, it just became this fluid thing where we started working on a lot of creative projects together Because we found that we actually do work quite well together And I think we have different strengths so it works out really well I can trust her to do certain things and vice versa. So it's actually yeah complement and same with literary like as much as like a lot of the design Yin and Fran yeah But yeah, no, it's I feel like it's actually been good like we seldomly disagree But if we do it's like usually she's right or you have to be like all right It's five o'clock shut the fuck up normal work. I want to be like that. She's more of a workaholic So I feel like it's actually like she's like oh now I have to start working on my own brand I've been doing like literary all day or I had to help you on a photo shoot all day And now I have to sit and work on my own brand So Fran will be working probably to like midnight most nights. Yeah, she's she's a workaholic But I feel like you know going to next year we're trying to like work life balance. It's necessary We need it. We need it because our life is work But it's nice like when even when we're here It's like we were working this weekend But then you know we get a couple days off. Sure. I actually enjoy Do you schedule time apart when you're like work trips and shit? Well, I was in Portland by myself like for the first three days Hand-delivering literary to be routine I was actually Just a quick stop off at the office Do you guys want to see what's coming next? Because I can show you I just yeah like I'll just show you Let's just bring it all ready um but yeah like I mean like when we also have like separate friends in the city too So we'll like she'll go for lunch with someone and I'll go see someone else But so I feel like you know We try to do our own thing as much as we can because we do spend a lot of time together obviously right What's the worst thing about working with Fran the worst thing about that friend working with your life partner yet It probably is what you're saying that like there is like kind of a moment where there is no break in work Because even when we're like out for dinner something will come up or we'll get email And so you kind of like Like you know, you wouldn't otherwise bring up something that we both got the same email about at at a dinner where we're trying to not work So I think that that's the thing too is like there isn't a lot of separation. So that's So he's lurking. It's always lurking. It's always lurking. Yeah, so that's the tough one but who's put more On the credit on the corporate credit card I mean, I think it's the shopper the reference the reference pieces. It might be it might be me. It might be me Yeah, I think it might be me. Yeah. Okay I got uh who steals more samples for their closet. Oh, that's definitely me. That's so bad But it but Fran doesn't really run like she will. She'll like go for like, you know I kind of forced her this summer to start running. So now she's Wow, okay, I didn't force her, but I was like, you know what a partner frame playing twice if you're okay She's just like in pain. No, but um like a few of our friends who were not like big runners a couple of her friends We're like, I think I want to get into this because Myself and my friend Justin were always running and the the wives were kind of like well, can we get in on them? So legs. Yeah, so so we like we started going on some runs of them So I feel like now she's starting to take some of the running stuff But like for me and stuff and obviously I'm like using more of the pieces So is that almost helpful to have Fran as a non-runner having that perspective? Yeah, go into the into literary I think so too because it also like I also trust her in terms of like the pieces that are going to call to someone who's not A runner like I like I think when we're talking about things and like even just in like the fittings when we are like Deciding on like lengths of things and pieces are like I'll often be like I like it like this because I'm thinking about if I'm running in it But like would you wear this or like I think we can kind of play off of each other in that way where hers Perspective is probably like quite related to a lot of these like more fashion Delican dance of formverse function Exactly. You guys both represent the side of the coin. You know, that's actually really convenient It's very convenient. Yes. Let's talk about you being a lazy piece of shit. What's your go-to cheat meal? Ooh Paso we do paso Fridays Every Friday It's not a running thing at all and a lot of people are like, oh, yeah, you carb load and I'm like, no, we're like every Friday We just that's our night to have pasta. So it's like Nice night of like trying to not work and just like enjoy meal So like not always from the same place, but like I will go out. Oh, you're not cooking. You're ordering. Sometimes we are. Yeah Sometimes we are. It's just like it's always passed on Friday So it depends on if we like go by or if we if we make it at home. Is there anything like about you? That's just lazy much potato. Yeah, for sure. Like I feel like when I get into like like post running that like half marathon a couple weeks ago. I took the week off, which was like amazing did nothing. No running no working out. That's not that lazy. You were in a hammer. Yeah You did earn it, right? I know and it's not always like I go through like obviously winters coming. I'm not gonna run as much like get a little easier Um, early treadmill. No, I never run on the treadmill. Oh really? I hate it I find it to be like quite depressing. No, I like people like it I just find it to be depressing. Like if I if I'm going to do something like I'd rather do it outside. Sure I don't know what you do. What do you do when it's brick in the six? Curling, ice skating Ice skating, Bob sledding. Lift lift lift a few weights. I go skating like I'll go skating occasionally snowboarding But like you know, I like to lift a waiter too throw plates. Yeah throw plates. Sure. Okay. We ever shit your pants while running No, but I know this is like a thing. Yeah, like luckily where we run on the waterfront There's quite a few like order potters. Or just the water's right there. Yeah, just running to the water. Yeah No, no luckily that's never happens to me. Like I see videos. I see hot. No, it's definitely a thing Well, there's like this one of the There's this one of this chicken. It's like her finishing like a I think it's like an ultramarathon And she or like a triathlon or something and it's like her coming through the finish line It's just coming down. Oh, and like the guy's like filming because it's like the finish and she's like don't film me right now Pretty like Perfectly. Yeah, but I also kind of get it. I'm like if you're running for hours and like you gotta go What are you gonna do your body's failing? Yeah, literally sport though Can you guarantee that it features poop wicking properties? Not yet, but we'll work on it. We'll see what I can do They're in the lab right now. Yeah. Yeah. We're working on it. Trying to solve the ground problem. What um, what shoes you run in? Um, I run in a few different shoes. Um, I've really liked the Mizuno. I was like I'm really Shout out Mizuno. I'm trying to get a club um, the waverunner. What do you, what you're, which are right now the neo Okay, neo vista um, I really like them like I actually to be honest I wasn't familiar with their running shoes until we started the brand and I was trying to think about what Shoot to style with because it's hard. Yeah, so many brands are already associated with Like a certain brand of shoe And I was like I don't want to do the thing where we're using like 100 different brands And I hadn't seen anyone use Mizuno. I like that they're Japanese. I feel like they look different You know, not a lot of great colorways, but if you find the right one like they're nice So I started styling with them and then I was like I feel like I need to run in them to make sure that these are good Oh sure. Yeah. And then they're kind of like my daily runner now like I actually really love them Yeah, they're amazing. Are they popular running shoe option? Yeah, yeah And they're building out that the they're like assortment as well Like they've got some pretty amazing like that. They're super shoe has this kind of crazy Like the heel is cut out of it So those ones like not so stable for me like I not We use them to style with like and they just have no back so every time I'm not model gets in them They're like whoa, I don't know how to stand in this Get more insurance on set. Yeah, I'm sure they're fast, but I'm like I'm not there's no heel on the shoe Like it's basically gone. You'll see if you if you look on the outside like they can only propel you forward Yeah, which is good because you want to stay don't look back literally Yeah, don't look back. You want to be forward, right? So it's kind of helpful And then it's got a carbon plate in it and I'm sure they're a really fast shoe But like they feel so unstable that I have not given those ago Yeah, but they're like daily trainers grade and then I ran the half in the adidas the adios pros, which are quick. They're they're a good shoe There's like gigantic fucking soul. No, no, no, they that's their like hundred mile or something They have like a crazy one that they just came out with, but that's like the current Oh, dude. There's literally no fucking heel. There's no heel. That's crazy. I know they look fast They look fast as hell, dude. Yeah, exactly. I like them from a styling perspective We do pro, but is that is that the trying to like the massive foam Soul on whether to hook a adidas Yeah, but I think it's for those like ultra like the super long runs I think it offers more stability and support for people, but like not really my not my jam. No damn This should I'll turn you pigeons out like this is crazy. It's crazy. It looks cool It looks cool. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, I always Wait, so you want a collaboration with Mizuno? I would love it because I have you guys done a club before We have one coming out. Oh In the spring breaking. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we have we do have it is footwear. Oh wow, but it's not running okay lifestyle It's lifestyle. Yeah, still in the active space though. Have you had to turn down a lot of collaborative quests? I feel like yeah, you do have a lot of heat going with the brand right now. You must have gotten like a lot of We've got a few. Yeah, and some ones that are no Well, some ones that I think are cool as a brand, but I don't think it's an appropriate Partnership is a show restraint. Yeah, sorry supreme Could you imagine? No, that'd be yes. I can't it would be awesome. I'd be first in line. All right. All right. We'll see I mean, there is this there is the streetwear OG to like streetwear 2.0. What are the fucking one call it um into Active sports pipeline which running golf a not really active so bright. Yeah, yeah Cyclone Siege tennis for sure like yeah, there's that like there's got to be guys and from that world that are Getting into what's about now? I yeah for sure. I think that there is but I think I think for us There's there's like put it this way. There's like a few specific ones. I'd love to get yeah first collaboration wise. Yes before kind of like branching out into like Other worlds and what's your dream club for the brand um OVO Yeah, let's get that OVO literally spoVO. Wow. There you go. It's right there. Now we're going Now we're cooking no one thought of that. I can't imagine. Yeah, I can't imagine. It was so obvious. I don't know No, I don't know like I think for like I would love to get like an iwear collab maybe like a varnish situation Uh, we start with a lot of vintage varnish. So a lot of the crazy Glasses we have were like 90s varnish and I feel like it feels like More elevated than the Oakley situation the French kind of heritage of it feels cool Um, and Mizuno for for a running shoe, but I you know like those are the two that I have like on my radar based on like you know where we're kind of Positioning ourselves and But I think there's many opportunities with Mizuno people. No, we definitely someone was like we can You know what's really funny our pair of showroom was right across the street from there And also like even like the Haven guys like Arthur was like oh, we can like connect you guys And I'm like, I know but I feel like I wanted to make sure we felt like the brand was at the right point to like approach them They don't a blow it. I don't want to blow it and I feel like they are quite particular like I feel like you know Like we have to impress them. They're very That's culture based around recipes I don't know there feels like there's this like wall there. Yeah, that's something Japanese and and I think it's because they also don't do a lot of clubs Which is why I like yeah, honestly, I feel like it feels cool that they're not you know We've had some other running shoe brands that collab with quite a few people reach out and we're just kind of like doesn't feel like it Yeah, it doesn't like make sense for us because it's like if not yet or not like not at this point or like just no Definitely not at this point, but also like brand alignment feels off, you know, so and I feel like that's also where Sorry, Puma I don't know I'm being sure. I don't know. I mean, I'm not even like what's wrong with Puma, but I don't even know what's yeah You actually like I feel like they're also a runner They're also kind of like like I don't know under the radar in the running space So it actually that actually could be kind of running sneakers. I think they must they've won driving No, actually they do at this run we did on Saturday Okay, by the way, thank you This girl was chatting with me that she used to work in like footwear design for Puma running And she like moved here to do something else, but she was like embossed in doing And she was wearing them and I was like, okay, okay. All right. It's a real thing. Yeah, yeah, so what do you think of this? I don't know if it's real or not, but kind of like vintage performance where like many fad I think it's cool from a like a style perspective like I There's a guy in Toronto that we love named Joe who has an Instagram called sportsman's paradise I don't know if you're familiar with it, but he always posts these amazing like vintage inspo kind of like Sports apparel stuff and then I know there's a store here that's called like rummage What's it called like rummage sportswear or something? Have you seen this? It's cool like there's like a few shops that are kind of doing this like specific like or even like the designer like Dolce and Gambana sport from like you know, this kind of weird Do you have a missoni sport? There's like uh, you know, there was like a tarile X I sport like ever brand was doing some stuff. You see me. Okay. I had one. Yes What was it like hay sporting good collab was it that or like yeah, but I think also just I S like you support Yeah, yeah, yeah, which that logo was sick actually Yeah, I feel like there there was that era where everyone did like a sport But then there's also like people finding The era of like Nike where they were making like weird capris and things have felt very fashion adjacent to is that what you mean like in terms of vintage sportswear or like Well, I think women mainly are like Because again, it's not people that are running ultra marathon just like yeah, I just want to get a sweat in run of three miles four miles And it's a kind of like They don't want to look like a run club victim or or just like wearing the pastels and the fucking tie that stuff And so it's kind of if there's like a I don't remember name, but Leana did like a pop-up sale with her where she did like vintage tennis performance stuff Oh cool, like a rack or two in the park Cool, so I think and near time just wrote something about this like mini fad I feel like it totally makes sense like I feel like there is definitely like especially like it's definitely like a Gen Z girl that's gonna wear that that's probably actually their preferred Right sporting look, but you do get inspiration from vintage performance from like a lot of the yeah Yeah, for sure like I feel like there's a lot of like Design details that you know are more noticeable on those garments because they're color blocking them like you might see like a seam like a shoulder seam or something that's like You know like a contrast stitch or something and we might like the shaping of that and just do it subtly in a tunnel that you might not even ever notice But there is a lot of inspiration that comes from like the way those pieces are designed or like pocket placements and and just like overall Kind of silhouette. There's definitely like old Jill Sandler and like protestport and things like that for sure Like protestport obviously there's a wealth of absolutely reference points from like that entire time so Well speaking of a fashion got to ask you if you don't know the slang necessarily what does a men's fashion victim look like in Toronto? Oh, I mean there's subcategories to this. Let's go. Let's get into it I mean you've got the man's you've got the Toronto man's who's still wearing like Air Force ones and you know that whole thing But I feel like there's also like The guy who's like still a bit left over on like the ALD hats and like you know doing like that kind of like Very like full head-to-toe museum a piece in quiet sweater and like that kind of thing And then you get the like kids now with like the white socks loafer and the balloon the balloon pants That gene look that gene look proper Jackie pulling out the sides. Yeah pull out the sides. Yeah the curved pants Yeah, I mean I think because Toronto's small like you you kind of don't see like A mass like trend in a certain way like you see these little pockets of of of all of it, but I think um Yeah, that that's probably the worst of it is like the man's The man's has Drake ever worn literary sport or do you not want him to curse the brand? I mean, I I don't know if that would be something that he'd be put in at this at this stage in his game I don't really he's like a word. He like poses workout shit He's a Nike athlete. That's true, but he makes sure that I was gonna say it might be conflicting because it's a Nike guy But he makes sure the print is you know Robbing. Yeah, so of course, you know, well, he always boils up the fake abs. Yeah, of course You know, we've got a sweatpants coming out next. He's also maybe he wants, you know Like no gray How's the print on those back? Yeah, exactly. We got it like it's like a creamy white that'll probably do the trick You know, maybe we'll we'll get him a pair of those. Did you what did you style Drake or what did you work like? I just worked with Drew so I worked with Drew for like six months It was around the era that like knocked a lot launched. So I worked on like the initial like knocked a campaign with Drew And then like some music videos. It was like the what's next video or like stuff like that So did a few things like friend and I like ended up Organizing his closet quite a bit. How is that honestly really fun like it's obviously the house is insane It's incredible, but like there's a whole floor that per floor is just like archival closet. So it is It's honestly it's crazy. What was the craziest garment you saw in there from like a fashion head perspective? I mean like there's tons of Tom Ford obviously. Tom Ford Gucci and all that kind of stuff. There was some like really like rare Like junior jackets and things like that and stuff that like I don't even know if he's ever worn He just like kind of collects it. I don't know if there was like a one-off Like it was like also the era of like all the like supreme like fur puffers. So there was like a ton of those like every color Um, I don't know if there was like it was all so crazy like product pink jacket and things like that So like it was just kind of everything was wild to look at but it was just like three racks deep like an entire like floor of a house How long does it take someone to organize that? I mean it was more some from like a perspective of like helping like pull out things It didn't need to be there or just like I don't know there was some weird like action figure collection some dolls Okay, it's some interesting. He's a collector. He's a collector. He's a collector. Like the Berkins were there. Oh we didn't oh we weren't in the birkin room Not everyone goes in the birkin room. That's only for future wifes. I think yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. No. Is he a guy that okay? He's so visible, you know, one of the biggest if not the biggest global pop superstar and he is under a lot of scrutiny for It doesn't even matter the error of the fits. Would you say that Drake is like underrated not maybe as a style I kind of think that would be a bit like what do you think of the can you say what you think of his personal style currently maybe I what I will say is I think Drew does a fantastic job styling. So that's that's that's as far as I go I think I think he's got excellent taste and I think he You know, he does the you know, like what I think is appropriate for him to be wearing right now. But this so like I didn't know that he was necessarily This much of a collector archive this where he has like stuff that maybe you've never even seen him wear but just like has for I don't know what I don't know what his reasons are but like do people not necessarily know that that he like has such extensive Such an extensive collection that he or his team has put together Yeah, I don't know like I'm not sure if that's something he ever really talks about but And it could be different now like this was a few years ago, but I think it was like super interesting Well, I think there was something posted recently where I think he was in his basketball court with like racks and racks of things What was that? Oh, yeah, they put it like his whole closet in the in the court just kind of like to it was almost like a money spread for a guy who Has a lot of clothes like could you tell that it was like rare junior and like Forward Eric Gucci and stuff like that like I don't know if you could tell I'm sure you could see though like it's like Somebody was you know somebody was for sure, but yeah, yeah, what's the most Canadian thing about you Jackie? Besides how you say Pesta Probably that I say sorry all the time. I yeah, I'm definitely like Is it probably a politeness? Yeah, polite Canadian. I don't know. Do you ever feel like you're you're too humble despite having like great personal style An amazing reputation this brand that's bubbling like do you ever feel like I need to fucking flex a little bit more? I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't you're telling me I don't know I need you to gas me up that I need people to you know to tell me that maybe that's what I need I don't know I think it's okay to be humble though like I think I think also I think maybe that's also like a competitive nature in myself or like you're never totally satisfied where you're at So you're like you can be terrible. You can be like happy where you're at But you're like I want to do you other things and I want to do more so I think maybe I don't know. It's okay to be humble You see kind of like along the same lines. Do you do want what are you sport or do you as a plans for what are you sports like remain? Not under the radar, but like niche and Kind of almost within its own guardrails versus like blowing up one being the next Nike I mean, I think it's interesting because again like um, I'm not really sure what Like the intention from the founders perspective is like for Fran and I like I think there's something really magical about it living in this world where it is a bit more Not niche, but like where you are able to be a bit more special to people I think that there's maybe a way to to do to scale in a way that brings us you know Success without ruining the brand. I don't know. Yeah a little bit of scratch that it's yeah Like I'm sure they would love to see it for everybody. I'd love to see it grow that's the intention But I also think for for one of the founders like for him. It was very much like a passion project It wasn't like the what's that the power yeah the sensitive soul sensitive so money means nothing to me I think for him this was like a genuine outlet that was like something important to him So I think like at the end of the day I think that that also reflects on the decisions we make they're not based on money Like we are doing things based on things that we want to see show up in the space and it isn't this like sales driven kind of perspectives so I think if it if it grew to that point amazing But I don't necessarily think that that will change how we approach the brand like I think we're going to keep you know kind of going out of the way we are and hopefully it grows but Yeah, well, I don't know what about just like kind of Putting a dent or having an effect on like the industry writ large where like things do shift a little bit I mean that's that a goal or does that just kind of like a byproduct of doing your own thing and and building in the lane that you the white space that you guys saw and decide to like fill I think it's I think it's a byproduct to be honest. I don't think it's the goal. I think for us again like Being involved also in like many different projects This is something that like is also kind of like It's it's nice to see it successful But I think that like you know, we're not like it has to be this it has to be that I think maybe that also maybe that freedom of kind of like letting go a little bit of it is what's kind of helpful maybe there's a nonchalance there that I guess we care a lot but we also aren't trying so hard to to move it so quickly and like I think For us, it's just like if it if it builds naturally great. That's what makes it cool, right? Yeah, it's not it's just natural and it's and it's nonchalant It's not shalant. Yeah, ain't shalant What are what are the other projects and businesses and companies that You and you and friend work on are you going to shout out real quick? I mean obviously F. Miller like that's a big one always Like in Toronto I work with roots roots Canada. That's right classic classic roots Anything about you. Yeah, I should have said that. Yeah, shout out my guy my my get from my guy who's image director there So I work with her quite a bit And like I was working with other brands that I don't work with as much anymore just time wise like obviously literary sports priority But like still doing some one-off styling and consulting with some some other brands that Um, I don't know if I should talk about some of those just yet But like yeah, yeah, we we have a few clients that we work on and just do some consulting work for for someone who's such like an image maker And who has like we say sick personal style to gas you up again Is there any part of you that's like I would love to do like the Jackie brand or is that yeah that that's a goal or an ambition That's separate from let's bow and totally and I do think so much of me is in this brand Which feels like I feel super connected to it. I think we see that too, which is a compliment because thank you I appreciate that and I think that that's why I do feel so connected to this project because I Was given a lot of freedom, which I think is rare It's rare like to also be someone who's a stylist or creative director and come into a space where nothing existed So you can kind of shape something from the garment to the outcome and the visual it's kind of the dream Yeah, yeah, it is honestly it makes money great if it doesn't man, but yeah, just keep doing every want well Because yeah, I just I I'm also like appreciative because I know how rare it is I know a lot of stylists. I know a lot of creative directors And there's always this struggle of also working with like bigger corporate brands where like even if you have a great idea It gets diluted it gets changed totally by the time the finished product comes out It's not what you envision so to be able to do something where I can have like an idea and I have it come out the way I wanted to come out and present it feels like a true expression of like my taste level and fingerprints are all over the picture So I do feel like that hopefully could lead into something that is like my own or you know Something with Fran as well like and things that we do together like to to spend a little more time to build out something for ourselves But right now like this feels also just like a fantastic like experience also like navigate this industry and learn a lot of things as well Jackie and Fran show yeah, that's next you'll be on our podcast. Oh hell yeah front row seats Well, we you know where you are it sounds like you're just in a great fucking place professionally Personally, et cetera, but as a stylist in your early days Did you have to cut your teeth working gigs and working with brands that you fucking hated? Yeah We're used to we just like I just I just got to bite the bullet. Yeah, I don't say pay the cost to be the boss I will say like I had a very like lucky start and to this industry probably different from a lot of people's situations I at the time was working at a bar in Toronto called the Beacon's Field Which was like kind of a hub a lot of creatives actually break use was it was uh Was a patron for a while and like a lot of people was he drinking his passion fruit service or whatever the fuck? No, I was like a lot of like it was a lot of Jameson And it was okay. It wasn't like the crazy like whatever that wine was No, but it was like a lot of like an ombre of like every pastel I know like why is it like that? Give it a stir. What's happening in my class? It looks delicious. I can't yeah No, and it was just like you know It was a lot of people in the creative industry people that worked in fashion at the time and like I was kind of like Doubling at friends that worked in films. So I had done a few projects and Someone who had you know just started working at Canada goose at the time as a creative director Like to my personal style was like we're trying to like you know change the perspective bring it to be a little bit more like Utilitarian and like I think I was wearing more vintage at the time I want to like vintage workwear military and things like that And she was just kind of like I really like your style Maybe we can bring you into style some Canada goose and that was kind of like my first client just based on the fence really Yeah, and like she knew what like she knew me and was interested in you know working in that industry So damn the ultimate cosine you look so sick. Can I hire you? It was it was honestly like I think about that. It's like it's not everyone's kind of path And it was yeah, it was super lucky. It was amazing. I did that like Like I still once in a while will work with Canada goose not as much recently But like in the last like 10 years of styling like off and on and quite quite frequently. So that was like a First kind of like for a learned I met a lot of people in the industry that way. So that was kind of in you know It wasn't always as great as that there's always like the the brands and the shitty projects for you know You're like I'm not going to promote this I'm not going to tell you yeah You'll never know I did this and there's quite a few of those and there will always be a few of those in the mix That's for everyone right now. That's like you know the freelance life pays bills But what was like the worst like fuck all this. I'm going back to school moment from early sound days um So we honestly like mostly in commercial jobs like working on like massive commercial jobs where there's like 30 talent and you're like Dressing background people um is what happened to deal with like celebrity divas is it like having your your your image or your Vision like diluted it's a bit of both like I think well There's a lot of brands and especially in Canada like there's a little less trust there. There's it's more You know like it's more set in its ways and in terms of these like more corporate companies where you can't really do a lot You can't really impact them maybe in the way you want to impact them and I think Yeah, seeing your work come out after you spend a lot of hours like building looks or building ideas Yeah, like this is terrible. I did that though. Yeah, please don't take me in this Obviously it happens but when you don't have the control over the outcome like you kind of you know Sometimes there are the like the give up moments for you like I'm never doing this again Never do this in but I think that's also why I started to to want to work More in creative direction insulting and working on the other side of things So I can maybe influence how the answer you use because I'm like please stop doing this What what did you do with this Toronto scene these days because It there was a moment where Toronto felt very much more influential kind of in like the streetwear meets luxury days of like the housing days like 2015 Yeah, I'm a man. Yeah exactly like see see Toronto was like the Seemingly one of the best shatters. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, some sneaker store. That was huge And obviously Drake was like like dead stalker. No, I'm sorry live. No, I can't remember And I don't think it's those but anyway, and like Drake was you know the fucking biggest force It cultural force in the world back then, but like What's going on there now? Well, I feel like that was a particular time because I feel like it was way more streetwear Like in terms of like fashion and menswear was way more streetwares and no mad was incredible when The old ownership was there a change and things kind of changed. It's old, right? Yeah I don't know Million loonies. Yeah, I think I think of end clothing. You probably probably I think you are No, no mad was like a small like retailer, but they always had the best shit like it was like the place when I was early styling They were always super nice about letting me pull from there It was like kind of had the best assortment of brands at the time and then they moved locations And I think I don't quite know what happened, but yeah, the ownership change the buying wasn't as good The store wasn't as good, but I also feel like yeah It was of a time when I think streetwear was really like Killing it and there was like haven in all these stores that were really. Yeah, haven shout out haven Yeah, hey haven's amazing, and I feel like they're still crushing it But like I feel like specifically in Toronto there was more fashion and the center of the Canadian University Shipped it over to the west coast. Yeah, well neighbor obviously. Yeah, yeah, we're incredible. Hayden stewsie. Yeah Yeah, it's true. I don't know. I think it's I think it's also because people leave Toronto That's also the thing too. I think that there is this like to go where? Well, you're here or you're up like a lot anymore Not anymore. Yeah, right. I mean, no, but still even still like I Maybe us closeness of orders will be good for you guys. Yeah, keep all the talent in house. I don't know like I just I feel like it's It's something like it's self-sabotaging city or something I don't know like I think there's a lot of great things still happening there and a lot of young designers that are like Coming up again that are in more of this like current like menswear movement But I feel like it's maybe almost like it was like a regroup from what you were saying from that time when it was a little bit louder And now these kind of more like Taylor brands are coming out like I mean like Henry's Keith. Yeah, shout out the big homie lives couple streets over from us And yeah, like I think that there is something happening. It's just maybe not as globally. We're like cohesive just yet It's not cohesive because My former colleague slash daughter Kariza Sanchez who now works in PG Lang she's from Toronto and she Always was saying it like Toronto. She called they call it screw face city where everyone just like Like they everyone sucks her teeth. They're like up. Yes. Yeah, man. Man's ain't that fire. Yes No, but that's what I'm saying to you like nobody like promotes their own and nobody supports their own Yeah, but the fuck I thought Canadian verb dance. Crap. No, it's like passive aggressive niceness or something I don't know what it is But like I do think that there is a lot of talent and there is a lot of brands that are starting to like get a little bit more global recognition and like There are some really great people here, but I just I feel like yeah like It's not It's maybe not as supportive or maybe it's the resources aren't there But also like regionality isn't necessarily a thing right now for brands where like what are you sport? I don't think what are you sporting like all Toronto no and that was intentional too. Okay. Yeah But that's you have a lot of brands though. Yeah, and but I actually it's funny like well So that's the thing when you're like the brand itself Do you think it needs to be like anchored geographically to a place? No, I think when you do that also you kind of like yeah, you limit it And I think that we thought about a lot of those things when we were launching because we We kind of knew the climate in Toronto. I knew what it was like for other brands And I think we had the opportunity to be kind of anonymous Nonimus in a certain way, but also like we intentionally launched in New York because we knew that there was a certain like women's Fashion crowd that was very based here that would you know, it would resonate really well with so we made that choice to to launch in New York Which already shaped people's opinions to be like oh, they're front of us in New York brand. Yeah, they're more honest That's globally because then it's cooler. Well, it's I hate to say it But it was kind of the intention of knowing like I guess working in the industry for a long time and seeing what happens to brands and The struggle of trying to get yourself like respected globally It kind of helps when you're from a bigger city like New York or Paris or London So I think for us that made sense to to go that route and hopefully Fool people in that way. Yeah, not a disingenuous No, not at all not at all and we talk about being from Toronto all the time But I think it was it's it's just the optics of everything and it helps us. How did you say pasta with the fuck are you actually? Pasta fried bagel bagel is my dog. What bagels my dog? The dog's name is dog. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's your dog's name? You have a cute dog Georgie. Thank you. George is George But you say bagel normally like a normal person bagel like a crazy. What? I was trying. Yeah, that sounds normal bagel Something about the middle vowel that always kills us. That's how people know Pasta or pasta Friday pasta Friday Pasta Friday. I even told him so didn't. Yeah. It is a little. Yeah. It is a little bit less. Yeah. Now I'm gonna be so self-conscious of that. I mean guys are pretty far West We're like an hour from here. By playing like We're not that like yeah, we just like walk over to Buffalo. Yeah literally. Yeah Jackie, what do you like you spend your money on? Shoes. Yeah. Yeah. Shoes are the killer. Were these the most recent pick up? Yeah, because it was like I actually I picked these up on the run on Saturday. Really? I stopped at WSA on the run picked up the loafers and red back to have from William. Yeah. Nice. And you were running with the box? Oh, I just took the dust bag. Oh, okay. Oh, you're right with the dust bag like a Fucking football. Yeah, yeah, because I was like I was messaging with him But he was like oh, I gotta I gotta leave by noon. I was like surely will be down the run by like 1130 And I can just like pop down there to grab them and then um you're like should we guys Is I was taking too long. I am paid to order a public gossip. I'm not I'm pay No, but we were like in front of like the niggucci cube and they were talking about it And I had to like turn to like one of the people on the team and be like I'm just gonna run to W Grout a pair of loafers. So those were the most recent pick up. Yes. I like good I'm so comfortable. Okay. Good. You haven't worn them yet. No. I mean the I got my shirt. It's like the day after I got them. Oh, yeah, you might need like a little and swollen or something For those fat boys working on it. They're flat, but they're really comfortable. Really soft leather. So you're addicted to footwear That's your I mean join the fucking club more shoes or more hats More shoes wow, I have a lot of pairs of shoes probably the same for us, I would say because I feel like I like I find new clothing but I prefer vintage and I feel like when I'm really spending money on something It's usually footwear Are we on the we talk about vintage gap a little bit. Are you deep in venti or money? I like I have a few like I have like I have this I have never even worn it But I bought this like crazy pink dress shirt that's like got this little like beige like the little beige embroidered logo. It's amazing Yeah, like the shirting couple sweaters. I got it actually archive in Paris. I got um the archivist archivist Yeah, I got like a vintage leather armani bomber there in the spring So it's only now been like cold enough to to be wearing it So I've been wearing it more recently, but like it's like the perfect crop little armani bomber But like not intentionally like I just feel like whenever I'm like vintage shopping That's the thing that I end up like the Chad sends all that jacket that I posted was Armani, I didn't buy though. It was too big in the shoulder. I'm still in valor But I got a half from him. I got like a vintage of course. Yeah, I got like a polo like a plaid It's actually the same black watch plaid, but it's like a polo cap. It was cool. Oh, so I grabbed that nice Yeah, we're not around. What's the dumbest purchase you've made recently? dumbest purchase They probably shoes also they were Didn't fit or no they fit they fit. They're just expensive Yeah, I actually wouldn't say they're dumb. I've gotten a good wear out of them But like I got proud of like little mules like the shuffle mules Which there are like a bit of a silly shoe for the price point, but we love a silly shoe Yeah, I guess that I then I guess not so terrible And when you buy them it's a you got to think of it like half off because they're you're buying them for Fran as well Exactly. Exactly. Well, I do have the voice. I have to get the approval I'm like to be like these to be like I mean, there's also the hive mind of the household I mean, I was just in like a lag our son yesterday and like I almost bought a pair of shoes and I might go back for them So that might be oh the shoe talk has got to drool it I know it might be another stupid purchase before I go home So when you're in New York and you're working, you're also just shopping Well, it's also part of work too. Oh, right. Sure. Totally. Yeah, totally just to find that work You guys make hard bottoms right? You need reference pieces for your hard bottoms. Exactly. Yeah Thank you That's right. I was I was forgot. It's my job. Yeah, totally my job. Well, I'll just get to do a product lab later on Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. No, but we do we do have a little sandal coming out for the spring So yeah, they get a little recovery thing recovery sandals part of a flip flop No, where you have a flip flop wave. Did you work? Okay. Yeah. Oh, you were you were But I just want to point out I've been rocking ufos for a few years now. So I've not said not new to this you are true to this Are you not wearing your little anklit chain? Am I under the sock? Aren't you aren't you? Yeah, but not not in the winter months. Okay. It's a summer We don't do anklits over socks. It's not you don't do it over a sock. I'm not a post to it. Okay. It could be cute. Yeah, I like what you're I like for you. That's a free one. It's like I said high loads like warm cold That's the next shit by the way warm cold warm cold. I like this. Okay. These are good ideas Do summer move do summer move in winter and vice versa. Yeah, yeah, just a position Yeah, where that Yeah, let your spring summer 26, yeah, show me the bikini and then I'll fucking show me that I like that I feel like that's a vibe. I feel like that's already a vibe though. I feel like people do that like full for hats with Yeah, definitely like Pam Anderson in the night. Yeah, I thought shit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's out there already for boots in a bikini It's a thing. All right, Jack. We want to thank you one for speaking who you are and you're coming on to the only podcast matters before I get you out of here. Give any constructive criticism you'd like to give us Ooh, Laura's yours. I mean, no, I think just be yourselves guys. Okay. You know, you're killing you're crushing it out there. Just keep on doing Should we should we We're more Literaries. I will count you. Yeah, um sure. Okay. Here's a question as non-runners. Yeah, what's okay? We get the LS right? Yeah, we're ready to go. You're ready. We got the shorts tops, etc. What do we do? Like how how do you run? Yeah, like what's next? What's next? Like it go Just go wow. Just go get it there. Just walk down walk down the stairs. Just you know, one foot in front of the other and get out there Join a run Make some make some really like lifelong friends. Yeah, you know, when you fall in love with running out because like personally I just don't like running because I get bored. Yeah, a lot of people feel that way. I get bored and it hurts It's still hurt like it hurts like I'm in pain most hurt so good Get old. It's it my knees aren't you know, they're not holding up like they you see right but running was always secondary It was like training for your other shit. I played rugby in university. Yeah, um, so like it was just like a like an endurance thing I was just kind of like uh get up there where you like the winger with I was scrum half Which is basically the quarterback of football. It's like there's the scrum happening Yeah, and then there's like what they call the backs. Yeah, and then you're the person who like does the fun throw Okay, yeah, yeah, like were you getting your shit rocks? You do get your shit rock because the whole thing is like when the ball comes out the back of the scrum As soon as you put your hand on it the other scrum half can hate you but they can't touch you until you touch the ball You kind of do and then you try to get like you you have to dive and throw it so that you don't get rocked But like yeah, it was I broke a few bones. Oh shit. Okay, some plates in the body from is that like you give a rugby and Yeah, a thousand percent I will die on this field. Well, actually, I have a play to my ankle and I played in my collarbone So I was like well, and also like at a certain like I feel like that sport has an expiration Like you can't play that as an adult is going to say a fucking bitch Never goes off. Really? Never goes off. No, it's never gone off. I don't know They must know people have like metal in their body at this point. Yeah, let's be like a normal thing Oh, yes, we're bionic wait, so running just became at an ecstasy became your thing Just be in like a like maintenance like salmon endurance kind of thing, but I I really like it like even though it's like Doesn't feel great. There's you know, I lost my toenail recently. So it's not a fun thing But I think that there is like this I don't know maybe when like you never shut your brain off. It's a good time to like Not you get a lot of ideas like when you're like, you know, okay I think about shit and I feel like it's also just like visually a nice excuse when you're traveling to be outside or like see more of a city It's a good way to see a city for sure. Yeah. Like even like when I was in Portland I was only there for a couple of days I had to be in like a convention center for rice of it So to go on like a long run along the water like I was seeing more of the city I actually saw I don't know if you guys know column Meredith another. Yeah, of course. Yeah, love calm I saw him run by me on the run and he was also probably there for the same same purpose But like I feel like it's like it's it's a nice way to like I'll say what up or just I can't like I just I saw the portal on the back as it went by and I was like two ships passing in the night Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I he's Canadian as well. Yeah, he's yeah, he's Canadian Vancouver. I think he's worked at Arkey. Yeah But I don't know him personally, but like I recognize great fucking brand another kind of like mixing Performance like his version of gorp is like exactly. It's like less logos cleaner, but portal is like straight running Oh, but then they have like some like cool graphics. Yeah, I think cycling too or something. I don't know I could be wrong like I think it's a little bit more Hybrid movement. Yeah But yeah, like I mean like I think you know, it's a good excuse to like get outside force yourself to see I get to my head when I'm running. I I start thinking too much. Oh, you think too much and then you're like no Jesus Maybe that's my brain giving my body excuse like stop running. Yeah. Yeah, yeah Really respond to this. I turn up my notifications when I'm running because I will get distracted if like techs come through or something like that I have to listen to incredibly angry and hard like abrasive music. Yeah literally I think I used to just look on spot if like brutal dubstep drops It was awful brutal dubstep job right? I can't imagine it's like good for your like cadence Like I feel like what's the one? No, cuz I had to like I'd like angrily just like get through the paint Yeah, fair enough. I mean, it's not for everyone. So people truly just hate it. And that's But I like cool to I like the leisurely stroll. Yeah Yeah, you can do that. Yeah, you can also do yeah, you just walk yeah, I like the hawker like yeah, you know Just bang it down 30 minutes. Yeah, there you go. So you can then eat whatever you get your steps get your steps Your housewives going on the day. Yeah, totally. I respect that too, you know, yeah, I do your thing Jackie working the kids follow you. What would you like to plug? And they can follow me Jackie McEwan on Instagram garden group garden group that friend and I do together Hit us up if you need help with things who is more followers. You're jack or you are friend friend Oh, friends of friends of personality. She's a personality. Her name is on the skin care. Her name is on the skin care She posts nicer photos. I'll give it to her. Yeah, she's she's got a fantastic guy. You're supposed to host her Oh, she's a story stories. Yeah, yeah But friend friend is more of a curated poster. I would say it takes a lot of nice pictures How do you guys just real quick? I don't know why we didn't ask is like how do you guys divide the work? The work in terms of the sport on L. S. I mean I handle more of the like design direction overall kind of like Obviously the styling yeah And a lot of the kind of like brand like especially being a runner friend is obviously not as immersed in that community So a lot of you know the ideas and things that are based around that are more my side of things But friend is having so much experience brand building a lot of like You know organizational things but also a lot of the ideas like I mean like we do in tandem like the creative direction for the campaign So when we're like locations getting and things like that. I think or casting things like that are a lot of you know What friend is better at so I think she's definitely more organized you know She's way more organized than I am as well too. I can like throw at a hundred ideas and she can Make them more concise and put it together in a package build the deck. Yes. She's the deck builder for sure And then follow literary sport right obviously of course follow literary sport Done all right Jackie. Thank you. Thank you guys so much. Thank you for having only podcast matters. That's great chef take us out