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Speaker 3Hello and welcome to the How Not to Scream show. Grow Up Your Kids podcast. So, pour yourself a cuppa, find a comfy seat, and enjoy the conversation. Today's episode, The Invisible Load, Why We're So Tired and How to Stop Resenting Everyone. I am joined by my gorgeous sister, Rania Robinson, mum of two, CEO of a top 50 ad agency in London. And you will know the ad agency more for the amazing Haribo ad. So, Rania, welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Hello. Thank you for being here. Let's kind of dive in straight away in terms of this, this idea about the mental load and how, as women, there's lots of evidence that women are more and more in the workforce, more and more in senior positions, but the workload is still very much held in terms of that mental workload within a woman's and a mother's realm. Is that something that kind of resonates with you?
Speaker 4Yeah, absolutely. I mean, certainly. That's been my experience. And also, it's something that we still find. I've been part of an organisation called Wackle, which is about supporting women in our industry and advertising communication. And that's certainly been what we've found is still very much happening and has a massive impact on women in terms of progressing in their careers and getting to sort of top positions and things like that. So, we know it's happening. And it's certainly, you know, whilst maybe there's some positive shifts, we know that that is definitely something that women need to be doing. And that's something that women still struggle with. And I certainly did.
Speaker 3Yeah. So, let's go back, because I want this episode to be super helpful, but contextualised from your experience as well, because I think there's so much about your experience of motherhood and all of the things that you've had to juggle and continue to juggle that I think will really resonate with a lot of the listeners. So, let's rewind back. So, you're a mother of two that are currently what age?
Speaker 4So, my son, so Milo is going to be 18 in August, which is crazy. And he's going to be 18 in August. And Itsy is going to be 17 in October. So, she's currently taking her GCSEs. So, she's right in the throes of it at the moment. Yeah. Okay. So, we send her our love.
Speaker 3Yeah. So, let's rewind back to what was the landscape like as you were just entering into motherhood? What was happening career-wise? What were you doing? And give us a bit of context.
Speaker 4So, I was kind of, had a sort of established myself in a relatively senior position in the world, in sort of agency land. I worked at. Creative agency. I've worked at sort of creative agencies my whole career. And I was kind of, I'd reached kind of account director level, which is sort of relatively senior sort of middle management, I would say, sort of level. But I was becoming very conscious and aware that I would not be able to continue in the role that I was in, in the way that I was working as a mother. Because what I'd seen in the agencies I'd worked at was women going off, having babies, coming back, in sort of being moved into different roles. And then, you know, almost eventually sort of being exited out of the business. So, what that sort of said, what that subconsciously said to me, whether that was their choice or whether it was something that, you know, the business had driven, but I don't know. But I think what it did say to me was motherhood and reaching senior positions and maintaining senior positions in your career do not coexist. Right. So, I had sort of already got it in my head that I would probably have to rethink my working life to be able to manage motherhood. So, I'd sort of decided to go freelance so I could almost kind of control that, that kind of the two and balance the two on my own terms, I guess. So, yeah. So, I had made the move to freelance at the time that I was pregnant and having children. So, yeah, I made that decision. Interesting narrative, though, isn't it? That what you were seeing in your industry, that was the story that you were seeing. That was exactly the story. And, you know, bearing. Remind that this was, you know, things have moved on a lot since then in terms of, you know, how women are supported in the workplace and, you know, it has changed a lot. But certainly back then, there was a kind of implication by what you saw around you that the two things did not coexist.
Speaker 3No, I'm guessing you probably, there weren't necessarily, you weren't finding out what these women were doing afterwards. So, you didn't necessarily know whether these women were setting up their own agencies. They just sort of disappeared into the ether.
Speaker 4Yeah, no, absolutely. And I don't, yeah, totally. And so, you just, you just have this, this sort of unconscious sense that you could not get on in your career, really, and reach further heights as a mother. And, you know, and I worked crazy hours, you know, we worked long at that time as well. I think there's, you know, been a lot of focus around work-life balance in the workplace now and kind of culture and, you know, that is changing and how employers support their staff, it's completely changed. But again, back then, we were working crazy hours, that was it. I think I was working like often until 11, 12 o'clock at night, quite regularly. And of course, that's just, you know, you can't do that and be a mum, you know, not in that way anyway. So, yeah, so I guess I just kind of felt that I needed to make some sort of change to manage both things in my life, yeah.
Speaker 3And I think there'll be a lot of mothers listening as well who'll be able to identify with that even if they're not coming from that creative space, but just simply the demands that my career, my job requires of me now is incompatible with my aspirations. I mean, was it just, was there also an element of you had an idea in your mind of how you wanted motherhood to look like for you and career? Or was it just simply, this is what I've seen happen to people once they've become mothers and so actually I'm going to just take control?
Speaker 4I think it was the latter. And I mean, I certainly wanted to maintain my career. I wasn't, it wasn't that I didn't want to maintain that. What I wasn't. What I wasn't sure about was what sort of trajectory. I wasn't sure if I wanted to, you know, go on to continue sort of going up the career ladder, if you like. I think I wasn't really sure how I was going to feel as a mother and I wanted choice and I wanted flexibility. And I think now, post-COVID, flexible working has become much more the norm. And I think we've seen that people can work more flexibly and stuff like that. So again, things have moved on. But back then, that flexibility just wasn't there. That kind of. That kind of view around flexible working. So I just wanted flexibility and I wanted choice and I wanted to see how I felt. I wanted to go, right, well, what are my priorities going to be like as a mum? Are they going to. So, so yeah, so I just took, wanted to take control into my hands. And I think, you know, it's very much one of my priorities and it's, I've made a lot of career choices around wanting to be master of my own destiny and even running my own business now and choosing to go that route is, has been about being master of my own destiny. So it says a lot about me as a person as much as it does about motherhood as, you know, because not everyone's got that choice as well. I really recognise that. I was in a position where my husband, who's now my business partner, could support me and give me some choice and options as well. A lot of women don't, don't have those choices. So yeah, I had that.
Speaker 3So talk us through then what happened in those early. How long were you at home? What did you then do in terms of pursuing the sort of the independent freelance work that you were doing? Yeah, so I took six,
Speaker 4with my son, I took six months off work. So I think I had just made a conscious decision I would not work for six months. I'm trying to think if I was, had a job to go back to. I don't think I had a job to go back to with either of them actually. So I'd taken, I'd gone out of the work, out of a sort of permanent role and I decided in my head I was going to take six months off and that kind of felt right. And if I'm really honest, I struggled a bit with the baby bit. I didn't love it in the way that some people do. I found it difficult. I found it a bit dull, found it a bit thankless, gonna lie well it is pretty repetitive i mean it's just like yeah it's change nappy yeah i did not enjoy it really um so i was ready to go back to work um and then i'd taken a actually i had taken a permanent position actually i had now that now i think back on it so i've gone off to do freelance and then i've taken a permanent position after having because i think having that time off i was like no i do want to be working and and um and i had really good child care as well which makes a massive difference i was in a position to get flexible child care at home and then i fell pregnant again not planned by the way i don't know how it got anywhere near me honestly so four months my son was four months and i was pregnant again and that's when i decided that i was i handed my notice in straight away on that one and um and but i only took three months at home i think with with my daughter because the thought of being the two kids under the age i'm sorry i'm gonna be honest and i was like blasphemy like terrible mother like kind of anecdote but i just couldn't and i just i just couldn't but
Speaker 3that's just so important to be honest because i don't know about you but i mean i'm not on social platforms anyway and and they weren't really massively prevalent in the same way when my children were younger but this notion of this gorgeous yummy mummy that's home baking this picture that is painted that actually if you don't enjoy those baby years or in fact if you don't enjoy any of those years particularly yeah and if you are really driven and your career means a huge amount to you then it's almost like you have to do that in hushed corridors it isn't something that you feel as a woman that you can say openly without others or at least feeling that others
Speaker 4are judging you absolutely i mean i'm such an i'm such an honest person i sort of put it out there because because i adore my kids and don't you know it's a small part of their life really if we're being like you know so i i don't feel any um discomfort saying that because i think women do need to hear it actually and i wish people had said it to me and when you do say it people then go oh god i didn't either so i didn't enjoy it it was overwhelming i we knew we always wanted to so like i want you know the fact that it came quicker and it wasn't i was we were acting very responsibly our contraception failed us it wasn't like um we we sort of were being irresponsible so it was forced upon us sooner than we wanted it but we wanted a second child so so it wasn't a situation i'd actively sort of planned if you like so i probably not even had
Speaker 3a huge amount of time to get your head around i mean being well no four month old and then i mean you barely got your
Speaker 4test yeah your body's barely your own again i mean it was really it was quite actually when i think back on the emotional impact and the hormonal impact and i'm someone who's very hormonally sensitive as well actually it was quite challenging really so i was keen to get back to work sooner and i was very sensitive to the fact that i was very sensitive to the fact that i was very sensitive to the fact that i was very sensitive to the fact that i was very sensitive to because i knew that really being at home did not suit me in the way i imagined but i didn't want to go back into a permanent role so i i took on consultancy and freelance work and again had really at that time had some really good child care as well because i was doing longer contracts at that time as well so i was able to sort of get get some good sort of child i had good flexible child care so with one you might sort of two it's just kind of much of the same thing really so yeah so that was that made life a bit easier and then i i think actually i did take another did i take another yeah i was freelancing and then got offered a more permanent position actually um at an agency that i was working at and i think did that for a year after having itsy and they were very actually they were quite actually quite a flexible working environment so that kind of worked and then and then i sort of went back into the freelance so i think i've just yeah so i did a bit of now that i'm thinking back on it now i did i was doing a bit of toing and froing between permanent roles and more freelance roles but it it just gave me the choice to go for the things i wanted and if the environment was supportive then i'd stick with it if it wasn't and it wasn't working for me i would i would um kind of take more kind of consultative projects
Speaker 3so yeah and when you think back on those early years because i think those i mean the reality is at every age and stage when it comes to having children it just you just get presented with new challenges when they're babies all you're desperate is that they're not going to be able to do that because you feel like oh my goodness if they sleep then i'll be fine then you move on to the whole oh my goodness me i don't really want them walking because they're crashing into everything and all the rest of it but what were the real challenges that you found in those early years of juggling that refinding yourself and that career as well as mum because there's a whole mix of this whole identity as well as the logistics piece
Speaker 4yeah i think there was there's definitely a kind of confidence impact on confidence i don't think you feel yourself really for a long time after having a child like i think just the hormonal shifts that go on in your body and for me it was practically pregnant for two years i mean you might as well be really with the breastfeeding and everything else all the hormonal and then it sort of fluctuates for a while doesn't it so you don't feel right really for for a while and then you're sort of you don't feel quite on your game in either role if you like so i certainly wasn't as i don't think probably quite as driven quite as sharp quite as singly focused on my career as i had been prior to having the children and i know i wasn't being the best mum i could be because you don't you feel like you're not anyway at the best of times let alone when you're trying to juggle your you know a career and a demanding job and trying to be a great mum and i remember there were times i'd come home and they wouldn't want to come to me from the nanny and that is heartbreaking because you're rushing to get home and you're trying to get home and you're trying to get home you can't wait to see them and they don't want to they literally don't want to come out of the arms of the nanny and that that was really difficult um how did you get through that bit
Speaker 3because i think that's probably what a lot of mums really fear and whether that is they're in a fortunate position to do to have you know paid child care or as more and more parents are doing relying on their parents so we're using sort of like intergenerational child care how does that how did you kind of manage that and the way that that made you feel
Speaker 4well it's just a very challenging time in your life because you don't feel top of your game at work really i mean there was definitely i guess the drive the energy the focus the absolute single-minded energy around your work shifts because you've got you've got this other kind of really important aspects of your life that that you're trying to manage with it that is a distraction in some ways whether that's emotional distraction you know mental distraction so and then but you're also very conscious that you're not being doing a great job as a mum which towards you you feel anyway but but it's particularly compounded when you're trying to spread your energy and your focus and your priorities around a very sort of demanding job as well and i think particularly like you know if you've got a partner that can't share that or doesn't share that load um so i mean he was at the time running a business as well so i just so yeah it was it was very challenging you don't really feel like you're being great at either jobs if you like so it's it can be very challenging yeah did
Speaker 3you talk to friends about it was it something that you because i think i wonder as mothers whether we just don't share that do you know what i'm really not enjoying this bit or i'm i'm feeling that i'm not showing up in the way that i want to show up but i don't know how else i could show up
Speaker 4no i don't think i don't think i did i've like i said it was it was very open about not loving the baby bit and finding that difficult but i don't think i found myself really taught you just get on with it and that's just again it's just that's my character many women's characters just get on with it so almost complaining about it feels a bit like it's just you just got to get on with it so no i don't think i did actually now now that i think about it i don't even think i really thought about how difficult it was either you're just in it in it you're just in it so but it was challenging and now in hindsight and actually as the kids got older where i was well there was less sort of emotional dependency of well there's physical dependency isn't it and then there's emotional dependency and um i think the second time i felt that level of not being necessarily there was during the covid period and obviously i was very very focused on trying to keep the business and looking thinking about all our staff and you know with people going on furlough and all sorts of issues there and actually the kids getting to an age where they're not going to be able to do where they're sort of going into adolescence and stuff like that and actually realizing that their needs had shifted and i was again maybe a bit sort of too caught up in trying to keep a business surviving in what has been you know huge sort of the challenging period of time for businesses and personally and actually sort of taking my eye off the ball with two kids going through adolescence actually going through a whole new stage of needing like emotional support rather and i think that's the thing isn't it that's the shift when they're very little they need loads and loads of sort of they've got physical needs and kind of caring like practical caring needs which actually if you can cover that with a nanny and you've got all that that that sort of takes you away from that um and as they get older they become a bit more independent and you worry less about their physical needs they can sort of look after themselves to a point and again you know i've been fortunate to have a lot of help over the years but then it completely changes once they hit adolescence and it's an emotional need where you've got to to be emotionally available to your children so that was the next time or next period where i felt i suppose because you get past the young bit yeah that's that very young bit and then it almost feels like okay i've got got this under control and then and then you go into this other phase where actually they need you emotionally and you're realizing that maybe you've not been on focused enough if you like to be noticed those changes that are going on what
Speaker 3what was that what was the pivot point for you was there a moment with the children something that was said something that happened that made you think oh my goodness me that's i've got i've not had my eye on the ball in that particular
Speaker 4area yeah i think with my my son was quite had some had some anxiety stuff when he was younger which i was very conscious of and very aware of and and we worked through and actually it's been it's been great as he's got older he's sort of really learned how to manage that and he's actually in a way it's been good because he's gone he's developed coping mechanisms and he's got a really good insight and understanding and he's got a really good insight and understanding and he's got a really good and actually he's sort of come out the other side it was really more my daughter who's always who's not didn't really have any issues like that as a young child as a young person like but as she got older and she was going into secondary school so she went into secondary school which is a transition period which i know is always challenging for kids but it was also in lockdown so she started her secondary school in lockdown which was obviously has had a massive impact hasn't it on young people emotionally and actually my son was fine with it because he was a bit older probably and actually he was in his second of his two school years difference yeah so he'd already established so he's established his friendships he's established so actually he was good in lockdown and he was and obviously he's dealt with some of these anxiety issues from a younger age so he's sort of come out the other side where he's gone from a young girl who's very confident very self-assured you know very stable very sort of steady yeah to going through a lot of instability through lockdown and actually it felt like a girl sort of walked into her bedroom at the start of lockdown and she was like oh my god i'm going to go to school i'm going to go to school i'm going to and a teenager came out the door at the end of it and she obviously going through a lot of you know questioning her identity and all sorts of things that that you that are perfectly normal yeah and i think i was so absorbed because by that point i was running the business running the agency and trying to navigate it through very very challenging times so that was a real um sorry and i've leapt quite a few years forward haven't i but that was a real eye-opener for me and like actually know that their needs have changed my role as a mother um needs to change from physical support to emotion much more emotional i mean obviously there's always always the emotional side but it's different
Speaker 3isn't it yeah yeah what did you do then was there something quite tangible that you remember doing that changed in terms of once you'd identified that that lockdown had had that effect on her particularly
Speaker 4what being more emotionally and mentally available and taking the talk talk to her you know um understand how she was feeling just being like emotionally mentally available yeah and it's so easy not to be when you're trying to run a business and yeah particularly a business in not crisis it was a actually you know we came out actually relatively unscathed as a business actually we were very lucky but what could have been like we didn't know what we were facing into we didn't know what we were what the you know what was the impact it was whole new way of working and so yeah it was very we were navigating that let let alone trying to navigate the impact it was having more close to home without with the children and stuff and um so yeah so that was where i felt like okay that i've kind of taken my eye off the ball a bit there or also and also recognizing she's got different needs yeah yeah and that
Speaker 3is as they grow older and things like that but it's it's interesting in your response you raise a couple of things that i'd like to touch on a little bit is this idea of as women the mental load that we take on as in we're constantly mentally juggling multiple things we might not be able to do everything all at the same time we can talk about balance in a little bit but that this mental load that we know really exists and the gender differences within the family dynamic obviously i'm interviewing you we're having a conversation which is why it's coming from your lens but when you sit back through those particular times did you feel as that there were some very significant differences between you and your family and i think that's a really
Speaker 4you and your husband in terms of how absolutely at 100 you know i am the more active parent in the sense of managing practical stuff like school you know school stuff trips teachers um you know nannies managing the household i i run the house to be fair i was like trev's not here to defend himself he'll be like oh you're like i'm not no don't get me wrong it's not that trev doesn't sit and i think he would say that that's a fair yeah analysis he was brilliant when they were little actually i'll give i'll give him that he was really good hands-on changing nappies very functionally really good you know really really good i think actually in some ways when you know he had a clear sort of sense of role i still took responsibility for the thinking bit and making sure that you know that they're eating the right things that they're you know all that sort of stuff but but he was more he he had a more act clear and active role i think in some ways that sort of suited him because he sort of knew what he needed to do but i think the emotional management and their school life and their you know pastoral all the pastoral care all the things that you think about when you select a school or when you think about the play dates and the you know all that's all that stuff the birthday parties that was definitely because it's the things that involve thinking things through and planning and managing something and you know if i asked him to do of course he'd be great and do it but it's just it's just who's who's doing the thinking it's the mental and then the emotional kind of picking up on their emotional needs and the discipline you know you know he's great dad and i'm the disciplinarian and so it's the stuff that's really the stuff that's really weighs on you that's exhausting because you're making decisions and choices that at that time feel like they're the most important thing in the world that's going to affect their whole future i it's really not like it's not the world's not going to end if you choose one school over another and you do sort of get past that but at the time it feels like it's the single and most important decision you're going to make in your whole life what school they go to or and of course if they're not feeling happy if they've got going through stuff and you know emotional things that you know that weighs on you massively so i think i think that weighs on a mother in a way if we're being general if we're generalizing and certainly from my experience that that was it we just we just have we we we just operate emotionally and mentally in different ways i think yeah from a parenting point of view and i certainly felt like i was carrying the weight and there wasn't and and um and that puts pressure on on your relationship i think as the kids have got older and there's less less need for all of that you find that you have less to argue about honestly because you don't feel quite that same pressure of this imbalance well that speaks very much to this idea
Speaker 3about this resentment yeah because i think fundamentally women do do more they do we know they do we know that the data yeah data bears that out but it's like how did you find ways to not build that resentment or was it just a you know it it was one of those things that you just accepted because the the resentment to me is about the fact that we harbor this why can't they do this and why am i doing everything but not actually
Speaker 4communicating it i mean i'm not gonna lie i didn't always manage it very well and i did communicate it i am but i if i'm honest i've been in a very privileged position and i know not all women can do this is that i would outsource as much as i could and i was very lucky to have support so i would minimize and reduce the level of resentment and the things that the number of things we could argue about and even things like obviously we work together we run a business having an assistant that i can just that can support a lot on things that i would have probably been dealing with booking homes and things like that but i'm not going to do that because i'm not going to do that holidays sorting the bills out getting the mot's i mean i still do a lot of that because there's only so much an assistant can can help you with because it's just some of it's easier to do yourself but there is a ton of stuff that i can sort of bat away and i recognize that that's a very privileged position um and i have that benefit running a business and having an assistant as part of my business but also i've always sort of tried to outsource yeah the cleaners you know but that not everyone can you know if you can lean on parents and things like there might be other ways but i think 100 outsourcing and delegation and also what i've learned and it's taken me a bit longer to learn this if i'm honest is actually a big part of the problem is i wouldn't he wouldn't do it the way i wanted him to do it so i would so therefore i would not trust him to do it the way i so you've just got to let them just do it and if they get it wrong let them get it wrong you know so i think i kind of let him off a lot of stuff because on the basis that i wouldn't have been happy with how he did it and that's another thing i've sort of learned and that's with any delegation is you've got to accept and even as a person who runs a business and who needs to delegate to their teams because otherwise you just end up resent you know that that that plays out in it can play out just as much in your career as it can in your personal life and actually if you're trying to manage career and personal it's important you you delegate yeah in both areas of your life and recognize that people are going to do it differently to you they might not do it as well as you think, you know, think you would do it, but that's kind of fine. I think I've also learned in both aspects of my life to delegate more.
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Speaker 3And I think that that's it. It's an important piece that I know you've touched on it in terms of a partner, and then also in terms of work. But I also think it's a massive part in terms of delegating tasks that our children can do that we don't need to do for them. Oh, no, totally. That actually they might not do to the way that we would like them to, whether that's making their evening meal, whether that's tidying up their bedrooms or making good the cushions on the sofa. That it's just actually delegating and not holding on to everything, and then that builds and builds this resentment.
Speaker 4And if I'm honest, I've always been, I'm very good at that. As soon as the kids were old enough to open a fridge door or open an oven, I was like, you know where the fridge is? Yeah, I know where the oven is. So actually, I've been really good at that. So I think, I do think that is super important. And I think, to be honest with you, in hindsight, I should have delegated more to Trev earlier and not let the resentment, or at least pick my, pick the things that I would be happy to, whereas I just ended up going into autopilot, just doing it and getting one. There's a little bit of that kind of, you know, if you're a, if you're kind of, if you're somebody that's quite sort of can-do mindset, it's so easy to just, just take too long. But I, but I was never like that with the kids, interestingly, actually, as soon as like, because also main, the main reason I wanted them to be independent and self-sufficient. So actually, I recognise the importance of them growing those, those muscles and those skills in a way that, so because I was very conscious that was part, as part of their development. So even like the minute they could like take a few steps, I got rid of the buggy. You know, I was like that with, I wanted them to, to be kind of, so yeah, the minute they could, like I said, it's quite, you know, do things for themselves. I wanted them doing, doing things for themselves, particularly given that I've always had help and I didn't want these kids that had like nannies running around after them and things like that. And I was very clear with the nannies as well that I, and then later it became au pairs that I, they had to do stuff for themselves. They had to load their dishwasher. They had to sort of clean their plate, things like that. So I think for me, that was a more conscious decision to go. I want independent children who are not that can do things for themselves. So, and that's such a big
Speaker 3thing because we know if we can build independence with our children, if we can sort of literally hand things over to them and trust that, okay, yeah, they might bump themselves. They might make a mistake, but it's hugely beneficial as they get older. Yeah. How much do you think that that came out of upbringing in terms of our upbringing or how much? Cause I think we're, we're fundamentally when we choose, when we parent our parenting is a reflection, of the way that we've been parented. Either we say, I love that bit of the way I was parented. I want to do it, or we go absolutely not doing that and doing this instead.
Speaker 4Oh yeah. I mean, our parenting was pretty hands-off, wasn't it? We were left to our own devices. I believe we're pretty much left to our own devices, weren't we? And that was probably a seventies thing anyway. And also to some, I don't know how much of it was cultural or seventies, but I think it was probably a generational thing, but no, we were left to our own. We were literally left to our own devices. I remember being left alone at a very young age. So I'm very hands-off. As generally as a parent in that sense, in a way that I've not, you know, I've, I see other parents are not like that. So I know it's, you know, it's different to, to other people's style of parenting, but no, I would, I would say that, and that's definitely come from our, I would say from our upbringing, we turned out okay, didn't we? So, yeah, so I'm kind of, yeah. And I, and she wants you, that's when I really started enjoying, enjoying the kids. I'd say probably from about three or four that where they were kind of reasonably independent, like, cause obviously, you know, I had help at the week, but you've still got the weekends with two young children. If you're running around after them, getting them everything that they want, like, I'd be like, no, no, no, off you go. Off you go. Like we used to, you know, mum used to send us upstairs getting her things. I'm like, that's the way it's supposed to be. You're supposed to be going. So, so if I'm yeah. So I started to really enjoy them because they weren't a burden in the sense of I'm God, I'm beholden to these children where I'm constantly running around after them. And secondly, they were fun and interesting and curious and, you know, really good company. And so I loved it because I think even though I worked during the week, I still, when they were very little, I still found the weekends quite hard. Yeah. Well, I mean, it's full on. Yeah. You had two young children,
Speaker 3not that far in age. Yeah. How did you navigate the mum speak? So the school gates gang, the comparison, the pressures of, of all of that. Cause we know it exists. I mean, I probably feel I've said it a number of times. I think in lots of ways, being a mum has been probably one of the most competitive things that I've ever careers I've ever embarked in, not from my perspective, but I've seen so much of that. Yeah. How did you stay? Cause I think you, you know, as your sister, I would say that you've probably stuck. You've been pretty true to your values. Yeah. This is how I'd like to parent, whether you've actually, I don't think you've sat there with a notebook, but in essence, this is how, and you've not really been swayed, but that pressure, I know you're living in London and the pressure is real. Yeah. How did you not get sucked in? Or did you do a very good job of looking like you weren't
Speaker 4getting sucked in and ignoring it? No, honestly, I didn't, I didn't really care what other parents thought and wanted to do. I didn't really get caught up in that. Even the whole school chat used to drive me mad to be honest with you, and honestly, some of the stuff people come out with about why they don't want to send their kids to certain schools and that's a whole nother story for another day, but I didn't get caught up in any of that. I was very true to what I believed and I did the research that I felt I needed to feel to make a decision. I've always made decisions based on my values and what I think is right, not what the consensus or the chatter is. The thing that I found the hardest is when Itzy said to me, why don't you pick me up from school? My friends get picked up by them. That's what upset me. Not that what the parents thought, honestly, but I was, that really upset me that she, she was seeing all her friends getting picked up from school. How old was she when she said that? It should have been in primary school. She probably would have been around maybe five or so. It never really bothered Milo. In the way it sort of bothered Itzy. But that's a character
Speaker 3thing potentially, Anna, she's a young girl and there could be a whole host of. Yeah, exactly. And that was, that for me was hard to hear. And how did you navigate that? Because a lot of women who are working, who are, have got careers and are driven, or maybe just don't have choices, so they are working a job that they probably would rather not be doing and are riddled with that guilt as to they're not picking up or they're not able to make the school play. I know we've got more flexibility. Yeah. Work wise. But how did you navigate that?
Speaker 4Well, interestingly, by that point, I was running the business, Quiet Storm. So I actually, in some ways, had more, well, I completely had more flexibility. I mean, obviously you work like crazy when it's your own business, but actually it's on your terms. Yeah. So in a way I could go, actually, you know what, I'm going to go pick her up today and I'm going to just do that because I can. I might have been up at five doing three or four hours. Work in the morning before I even got into the office. So I'd be like, actually, I'm going to do that or certainly, you know, what, what dictated my diary was more client demands or not a boss, not a culture of, Oh God, what time are you leaving? And only part-time or whatever, you know, mums get at work. So I didn't have to navigate any of that. It was almost, I, I answered to my clients and I answered to the sort of, and again, sort of want to say clients, like, you know, I do a lot of new business for the business. For the, for the agency. And that's obviously client run as well, but everything else is on sort of on my terms. And so I, I was able in some ways, even though I was working, I was in still a very demanding work environment. I have the flexibility and when I could and where I could, I did it. I took it. Um, and I wouldn't make up for it in other ways. I'd work. I was pretty rubbish after a certain time in the evening. I know some people will go home, they'll pick up their kids, I'll take, go home and then get back on their laptops or whatever, put them to bed and get back on the laptops. Mine was always the morning. would just do a few hours in the morning i'd get up very early and so you just that's that's um and i think that's what we're recognizing now as an industry certainly that actually you you this flexible way of working when you work how you work can be you know it's more about outcomes and outputs and things like that so but you but certainly by running your own business you can determine that and you can determine the culture of your business to be more you know flexible i do it for myself and we we support our teams in the same way to work like that so yeah so i just tried to show up at the school gates as and when i could but certainly it wasn't going to be in the way that other parents were doing it but
Speaker 3yeah but but you would do and i think part of that is that acceptance is that there's no point beating yourselves up you can only show up in the best way that you can so let's speak about i've just had this moment um of the other day that we're thinking about those i'm calling them mad mum moments for a moment i don't know might not we might they may change but those moments that obviously hindsight is a wonderful thing those decisions that we make as mums there's a whole other ones for dads but these mad mum moments are the moments that we've made a particular decision and then afterwards we've gone oh my goodness me how did i do that
Speaker 4yeah okay well mine it's i mean it's i can still see his little face now like the clearest day so this was i was working on a consultancy project and i didn't have child care for a period of time and it must have been between like shifting from a nanny to au pair or there was something because i've been very lucky to have had really good child care pretty much the whole time but there must have been a period where i didn't have child care and i was on i was taking a call a work call and at that time you just still had this feeling that motherhood and work was not going to be the same do not mix and that you know obviously post-covid having kids walking in the background is sitting on your lap it's it's become normalized but certainly then you just didn't really want to sort of sort of mix the two things so i was taking a call at that point my love was going through a particularly needy phase so i thought the only way i'm going to be able to have this call uninterrupted and without him sort of in the background sort of was is to put him just out in the carton for a minute and i put him in the on the patio and i closed the door and i closed the door and i was and he was absolutely beside himself and he was banging it was just horrific and i was trying to finish this call while sort of sort of trying to sort of gesture to him between the glass he just couldn't comprehend why i'd shut him in effect shut him out of the house so it's awful um felt absolutely awful about that um but yeah that's
Speaker 3my terrible mom moment but the thing is and i the reason why i'm asking guests to talk about this is that we all have them you know we all do these things but it's the wrench that it has on us and this idea that somehow that one moment that one thing that we've done has so significantly scarred and impacted them that it kind of burns that hole and i know you and i were talking a little bit about it because i'd asked you um to come prepped with your um your moment and i'd said to you that i had done a which was very must be something about very reassuring to hear and i a similar thing i put catherine into her bedroom because i had to do something and she and there was crying and banging at the door and you sort of feel like this awful parent but actually it's really important as parents actually that we talk about those times that we've done things that we feel really bad about because then it normalizes the fact that we're all thinking in a moment we're making split second decisions all of the time yeah all of the time and we're not going to get them we're not
Speaker 4no and i and i think i think you know honestly that i don't think there's anything as such there's no such thing as perfect parenting anyway and actually i think we put all this pressure on ourselves and there's all these concerns i mean i tease the kids a bit and i say oh that'll give you something to talk to your therapist about when you're older and we laugh and honestly i'm really proud i'm really proud of the kids i think they're really decent human beings they're really they've got really strong values they're really i think well adjusted and i haven't been perfect we absolutely haven't been perfect parents at all and i'm just you know i feel like the kids have turned out really great i can vouch for that they are they are but it's so true and we absolutely
Speaker 3have not been perfect parents but i think that that's but i also think that's important because they see the human side yeah because we're it's very easy to sort of parent from the back seats you know this is what this is what you should be doing but actually when you're in it and you realize that it's messy and i think that that it's good for children to see that that's the messy yeah and because i think that they get a much more realistic view of life yeah because life isn't about perfect decisions and perfect smiles and perfect cupcakes whatever that might be i
Speaker 4think kids understand they understand so much more you know like they know they're not coming home to dinner on the table and things like that and they've got friends who are coming home to dinner on the table and you know they know that they're going to be getting their own dinner and you know obviously we talk about it all the time we joke about it we have very open relationship and i do say oh god you think i'm terrible mama i've not got dinner on the table they get it they do understand so i think i think um we we sometimes don't give them enough credit as well that they in terms of what they um
Speaker 3what they do but i also think you're probably downplaying the fact that in your family as a four you there's a huge amount of communication you communicate a lot so it may well be that you don't do things in the garden deemed perfect way but there's community it's not a random thing that just happens and they're they're asking questions yeah it's all about that that communication and sort of speaking around that then do you believe and we talk all the time don't we about this idea about work-life balance yeah do you believe that women specifically can ever have it all
Speaker 4not all at the same well you can have it all at the same time but something is compromised and something is suffering without a doubt and that might be your mental health it might be you but it is almost impossible to do it all brilliantly all at the same time you know that's my view and i have you know i've had a career i've raised two gorgeous kids who you know i've you know lived a good social life as well like some people compromise on their social life don't i've got you know i've i've tried to do it all but something is always suffering and that's been um it might be you know you know losing focus career-wise the kids aren't getting maybe all the support they need at the right moment or you're run ragged and feeling completely disheveled and you know so but but i but i can i can honestly say i have maintained all of myself if you like as in you know i've got that the friendships and the me time and all the things um but recognizing that that it's not all at its best at every every moment so yeah yeah and
Speaker 3that's an important piece because our children do grow up and eventually leave home although the current data they're staying at home that bit longer yeah but they do keep coming back yeah or they keep the idea is that they will and you know who are we if we haven't nurtured ourselves and our friendships and our relationship i mean that's something
Speaker 4trevor and i have always been very good at because that's the other thing that happens isn't it is that you don't nurture your relationship and then you they get to a certain age they've got and you're like i can't stand you or who are you or actually what do we have in common so trevor and i since they were born every year would go away for a few days on our own and have time just us plus you know social things and our work obviously there's work sort of commitments and things like that where we're together and we're sort of a couple as well as you know obviously business partners but also a couple and so i do think i've we've been quite good at managing that as well so yeah so i think i think like i said you can try and aspire to supporting every person part of yourself but but it's not always great like yeah it's not always great all the time yeah it has been amazing
Speaker 3having you on we're about to wrap up but before you go i'd love you to share any survival tips that you have having been in the trenches probably still are in the trenches in terms of juggling career and maintaining your sense of self and all of the other things any tips for mothers listening who are grappling with the same things that you would have done at any stage children were developing any things that kept you sane well
Speaker 4outside of sort of obviously delegate what you can and outsource what you can like cut yourself some slack what makes it so hard is what we do to ourselves in it beating yourself up the guilt the looking and comparing thinking other people are getting it right and doing it better just that you got that all of that you've got to sort of offload all of that because it's tough enough without you piling a whole load of extra pressure on yourself so i'd say yeah cut yourself some
Speaker 3slack oh ron you thank you so much thank you for having me lovely conversation oh yeah lovely thank you so much and for those of you who have listened regularly or if you've just tuned into the podcast for the very first time if you enjoy this podcast then i would be eternally grateful if you could rate follow and review the podcast so that others can find us and we can spread the love so until next time you I'll see you next time.
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