61. The Intersection of Food, Culture, and Identity with Dietitian Shana Spence

(upbeat music) - Hola, welcome to Dismantling Diet Culture. Fuck being Callevita, the only Spanish anti-diet podcast that teaches you from a sociological lens, feminism, and intuitive eating coaching to Dismantle Diet Culture. I'm your host, Dr. Ortence Jimenez, and I am passionate about Dismantling Diet Culture and helping you heal your relationship with food and your body. I'm a mother, daughter, co-mother, a amiga, community member, professor, health coach, and published author. On this show, I share my personal experience with diet culture, tips and strategies, and educational content to help you understand diet culture and systems of oppression so that you can have the tools to challenge diet culture. Current and future generations do not deserve to inherit your diet culture trauma, and I'm here to help you. If you're on a mission to heal your body and food traumas and embody your authentic self, unapologetic, welcome to Dismantling Diet Culture. Fuck being Callevita. Hola, bienvenidos a Dismantling Diet Culture. Fuck being Callevita. This is your host, Dr. Ortence Jimenez. Bienvenidos, welcome. Ooh, I am excited. I was teary earlier because this is an amazing guest that I'm gonna go ahead and introduce shortly, but I do wanna say that when I started social media, one of the first accounts that I started following was Dalina from your Latina Nutritionist, Anna Shana, which I will introduce shortly. And I love the work that she's doing in moving the conversation forward of undiating. And she's a registered dietitian. So without further ado, let me go ahead and introduce her. Shana is a registered dietitian. Nutritionist based in Brooklyn, New York. She describes herself as an all foods fit dietitian. Life is already complicated. Why restrict yourself unnecessarily? She creates a platform for open discussion on nutrition and wellness topics that are inclusive, non-diet, and weight neutral, all with an intersectionality of social justice. Bienvenida. Oh, thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here 'cause I'm also a big fan. Oh my goodness. I love, I love, I love your work. And before we go into like what led to this work, who is Shana? Who was Shana as a child? Oh gosh, you know, it's so funny because I was actually recently having this conversation with my mom and she said that there's such a big difference in my personality. I mean, I guess that's how we all are as children, you know, like we grew up. But she says that there's such a big like difference in my personality. And I don't know what it is. I think I identify as an introvert. So I'm always a little bit more of observing folks first or observing the atmosphere, you know, but I just have this confidence now of speaking my mind. And I think that's what she was trying to get across. Like that's not how I was as a kid, which is understandable. So I don't know, I just, there's a big difference and I really love just speaking out and saying things, you know, listen, we all get the backlash from folks who are not ready to hear those things, but I really do think that it's important to speak out on what you are passionate about, which is what I try to do. Oh, thank you. I love that, you know, your mom's seeing your growth. And yeah, it does require a lot of courage and confidence to show up on social media because of the nature of the work that we're doing, right? And that's why I just love you and I admire you and like keep going and taking care of yourself. And let's unpack a little bit more of this as woman of color, you know, being outspoken and being confident. Do you, can you recall like, was there a pivotal moment or like moments in your life that led to this Shana that we have today? I think it's just more getting older and getting more confident. I think that's really the best things about getting older. You know, we, like in society in general, I think there's this fear of aging, but I think one of the great things is just starting to get this confidence that you didn't have when you were younger. And you know, it's funny that we always talk about, or I hear a lot about people saying, oh, you know how really older folks, right? Like they're 70s, 80s, they walk around, they do not care, you know, they give zero Fs. And it's like, yeah, because once you reach that age, it's like you have this confidence and you, you know, so I feel myself slowly getting to that point. - I love it, I love this and I feel the same way. I mean, not only do I love your work, but like I was, you know, I found out that you're also Leo, you're August. I was like, don't share all these things in common. And the sentiment of getting older and feeling more comfortable in your own skin and for me, like embracing my own voice and doing that journey, but you can use efforts here, like at that stage of like, you give a fuck, you know, what other people are going to say, you're going to be criticized, you know, we women of color, we all the time, if we do good or we didn't do good enough, there's, oh, we're always criticized, you know, so fuck it. - Yeah, exactly. - You know, it's just too much. - Yeah, it is too much. And this, you know, connecting it to like diet culture, this is rooted in white supremacy, this is rooted in systems of oppression, right? And so by speaking up, it's like you're owning your power, right? So that's so beautiful. I'm glad to know that this is where you're at with this confidence. And tell me about your relationship with food and body image growing up. - Yeah, so I really didn't start having issues until I would say college, which I know is rare. Excuse me. And I think that, I'm not sure, to be honest, I think it was really just college being this new environment, this place of over, you know, you're coming from a home and I'm an only child, so, you know, I was just very used to- - All these freedom rights. - Yeah, exactly, this freedom and just being overwhelmed. And I think, and it's weird because I definitely grew up in diet culture, right? Like even my dad was an athlete, so he was always talking about weight and all this stuff. Yeah, it didn't affect me until I would say college when for some reason it just came like 10-folds. And so that's when I remember starting to track every single thing I wrote, or sorry, A8. I mean, I'm talking if I had let's say a handful of grapes, I would write that down. Like that's how, that's how quote unquote bad that was. And, you know, and I was in a thin body, right? Like that's just, you know, honestly, just genetics. And so it just had this like weird mind fuck, basically. And writing everything down, counting, and it carried through my 20s, my early 20s, when I started really getting into dance again, like I had taken dance before, but like really getting into it. And then I had a teacher who did not do this on purpose, but once you start, you know, exercising a lot and then you get compliments on your body, you're like, well, how much farther can I go? And that was just, I think that's my 20s where just the epitome of very scary, you know, pretty much eating disorders territory and kind of getting out of that because, you know, as women of color, black women, you know, eating disorders don't affect us, quote unquote. That's what we're told, right? And so I never would think that. That's why I didn't, you know, didn't get help or anything. Luckily I was able to get out of that, but it really started in college. And then solely just in my 20s kind of just, you know, opened up, yeah, for sure. - Well, thank you for sharing that. And, you know, for, I'm a college professor and I know there's students who listen to this is, you know, you're not alone in your struggle. There's so many external factors. There's a lot of stress. There's a cultivation. There's like your homesick. There's so many factors that contribute to this, right? And it's not your fault, you know, it's not your fault. It's the system that we're in that is so toxic. So thank you. - How did you began this healing journey on dieting? - Yeah, I think, and you know, in my, so I talked about the dance in my 20s and I loved it. Like I still dance, you know, don't get me wrong, but also what contributed to that was just being super unhappy. I used to work in fashion and it is every, unfortunately for me, my experience, right? Not everybody, but my experience was just every stereotype that you think of with fashion. And I worked for some big names who I won't name, but very recognizable names. And it was just such a toxic place for me personally. And I didn't feel like I was able to control that environment. So I felt, I think in a way, I'm like doing therapy on myself right now, in a way I was able to control the food. So that, so I think I felt like superior, like, well, I can control my body and my food intake. And that also contributed to it. And I think that how I got out of that was really just realizing I didn't want to work in fashion anymore. I, at the time, I had a weird, what we would refer to as orthorexia, which is just this pretty much an unhealthy fixation on the ingredients and being healthy, like, you know? And so that led me to want to do nutrition and to want to change careers. And I did, I started, you know, I went to school, did all that. And I did start to feel better about myself. And I think that helped. Granted, did I get into nutrition for the right reasons, right? No, but it did help. It did help me get out of that mental space of feeling like I had to control every bite. And we're, you know, that spiral. You know, when I talk to a therapist and other health professionals, they say, oh, I went in for the wrong reasons. You know, I was giving myself therapy, I was gonna fix myself. (laughing) We all do it, right? Yes. But, you know, I'm glad that you did get your degrees in nutrition, right? You're a dietitian and nutritionist or dietitian? Yeah, it's a dietitian/nutritionist. That's like the official, like, argument. That's what it stands for. Yes. Tell me, so let's pivot to now when you started, you know, school, college and your degree in this area. I'm sure that what you were learning was very diet culture. For sure. I always say that going to school for really any health profession, but, you know, definitely dietetics, it's basically you're getting your degree in diet culture, you know, with the classes, you know, Fatphobia 101, I always call it that. And also, you know, which I'm sure we'll get into, it's, you know, 'cause diet culture stems from this white supremacy. So that's 101, or I should say that's 202, class 202. But it's, you know, it's all of these things that we're told. So we're told to memorize stereotypes, you know, of what, and not just of people in larger bodies, right, but also of people of color. We're told that they have, you know, all of these diseases and illnesses they do to themselves. And that's what we're taught. And even as people of color, we're like, yeah, you know, why aren't we eating healthier? Why aren't we doing this? 'Cause we see it, right? And our families and our community, we internalize that. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. It really is. And I think now that it's being sort of talked about more, maybe we're recognizing it, but not enough. You know, I still, which I talk about, I try to as much as possible this healthism, which is, you know, when people say the onus is on the individual for their health. And it's not. We're talking about all of these socioeconomic barriers, all of these environmental barriers, and not to mention racism. Like racism was finally mentioned as a public health crisis. - Yeah, it kills people up. - We're 20, you know, 24, right? So it's, you know, it's finally worth talking about it, but still not enough. - So you think that the field, you know, for anyone who's listening and who wants to go into dietetics or nutrition, any health field in general. And then we want to be like honest. And we're not being pessimistic, y'all. We just want to keep it real. So I think at that, it still needs a lot of work. - I do, and that's the thing. Nothing's perfect. And, you know, there, I always say, actually, I saw this quote from Congresswoman AOC, actually, and it kind of stuck with me. She was obviously not talking about nutrition, but it really is where she said, people think that I don't love my country, right? People think that I don't love my country because I'm always trying to change it. And she said, I actually love being an American, which is why I want to make it better. And yes to that, of course. But also I think about that with nutrition too. I do love being a health professional. I love nutrition, dietetics, all of that. I think it's fascinating, but I love it, but I know that it needs change, which would make other people love it as well, other people, you know, 'cause nothing's perfect. It's like, you know, I personally don't believe in the word perfection. - Of course. - But yeah, I think about that a lot when she said that. I was like, yeah. - It's true. Yeah, you know, especially because I was a woman of color and I teach sociology and of course I center race and intersectionality and everything I do. And many years ago, it must have been when I started teaching, I had a student who said, why are you obsessed with race? Why are you anti-American? And I was like, oh no, you get the wrong impression. You know, like she told me at the end of the semester. I was like, oh, so I make sure, you know, to every semester to tell students why I do what I do and what I teach and how I teach it. Because you're right, we want to make our communities, we want to make society a better place and our profession because we have this conviction and we're committed, right? And we want other folks to fall in love with the work that we do, that they will eventually do, right? - Exactly, exactly. That's the whole point, so yeah. - So then from, you were slowly then pivoting. Tell me your journey to this undiating because you are a trailblazer, you are a leader in the undiating space. You're one of the few black women that are doing this work. There's others, I can see actually now in the last one, that maybe you can, you have more expertise on me maybe, 'cause I just started social media three years ago, but I would say in the last like two years or so, I've been seeing a lot more folks, right? - Yeah. - Talking about this, but you were one of the first ones. - Yeah, it's so important and, you know, I think that when they see one person talking about it, they feel more comfortable. And I also, you know, I didn't, even when I finally got my license, my dietitian's license, and I started, I still was not in the anti-diet space. Like I was still, I mean, it was still very much diet culture. And I started learning from people. I started following accounts and learning and really kind of diving into what this actually meant, how it stemmed from. Because even I, I remember the first time this was in 2020, when, you know, everything was happening in the world, right? And I remember that was the first time, I saw how someone posted, and gosh, I wish I remembered who. It was how there was, there is a pipeline from white supremacy to diet culture. And I was like, what is she talking about? - I'm interested. - And that was the first time, yeah, that was the first time I saw that. And I was like, what? And then the, but the more you read, the more you listen, you're like, oh my gosh. And then I read Sabrina Strings. - Of course. - Let's get out of here. - Black body. - Yes, I highly recommend everybody read that book. And even like learning about the history of food. I, you know, I posted something on social media the other day, 'cause I always find it fascinating to talk about like how clean eating stems from this, you know, puritan- - Racism, yes. - Racism, of course. - Yes, colonialism, yeah. - And people don't see, so when you post things, you have, like, it's really, it's really interesting to see the reaction where people are like, I had no idea. No, exactly. And I think that that's the point is to see that this doesn't just come about, you know? This didn't just come out of nowhere. There's a pipeline. - Yes. - And so I'm still learning, you know? And I think we all are, and we all should. - Yeah. - Because again, no one's perfect, right? And I think that it's really the more I'm learning, the more fascinating it is, like the history of food. And also now another fun fact, like even pancake mix, learning where that came from, like when you think of entremaima, it was because people, that's when slavery had ended. So a lot of white women didn't know how to cook. So they had to make something because all their slaves were freed, were freed. And so, you know, that's how pancake mix came about. And they put entremaima on there. - Of course, yeah. - So it would be like-- - Except they find the mommy. - Yeah, exactly. And I was just fascinated. I mean, it makes sense. - It does. - It's, you know, fascinating as well, like wow. - Yes, so you're like a food historian now. - Well, you know, I'm learning the more, I don't know how this started. Like now I can't stop. Every single time I learn a new fact, I go on this like deep dive. I think it's like this hyper fixation. But I'm also one of those weird, I always loved history. So I'm always one of those weird ones that there's this show called "The History of Food." I think it's on the Xtreme channel. I forget where, but I'm like-- - Love it. - I'm always fascinated. - Yes, oh my God, I love that. We share that in common, you know, in sociology. Since it's interdisciplinary, there's like social, historical sociology, political sociology, so much branches and specializations. And I'm glad that you're bringing this lens in the work that you're doing. You're going beyond your profession, right? You're intersecting with these other disciplines to bring a more holistic understanding about food. And I think that's what we need to continue to move the needle, right? That we can't just see food from one dimension, right? It's interdisciplinary and it is very nuanced and complicated and messy. And sometimes it's contradictory. Like it doesn't have to always make sense, you know? I mean, I feel like that's one of the struggles that I have when I wanna talk about food. It's like, it could be this, this, this and all this. Like all these are truths, truths about food. - Yes, exactly. I think nuance is always missing. And that's why social media is hard because you can't say everything and any, you know? - And a carousel full of tense lights. - Exactly, exactly. Yeah, so it's hard to really try to get every point across. I think that nuance is so important. And it's always missing, I think, in social media, which is understandable, right? Social media, I don't know how many characters you're allowed to type out, but it's not a lot, you know? And so, and then you're gonna have people who didn't quite interpret it correctly. Or, you know, I sometimes intentionally didn't interpret it. Or some, you know, it's really, it's, I love social media for learning, but as far as really, do I think that it encompasses all the learning someone should be doing? No, you know, so that's also important to really kind of go out on your own and see something and say, oh, I'm gonna look into this. - Yeah, so I think sometimes that's missing. - Yeah, and I, you know, as an educator, we think like, how can we bring equity into our communities and to the work that we do? And for me, thinking of folks who may not have access to resources or to time or to education and they're getting some of this through social media. So it's also for folks to check people's credentials, you know? - Oh, for sure. - So like these, I just get so frustrated and I don't even know how to explain that feeling of like, you have these so-called influencers with thousands and hundreds of thousands of followers and like, it can have such a big impact and they're just not doing it, you know? And who do have credentials, you know? Sometimes are then questioned, like their credentials are questioned. - Always, always. And just like, okay. - It's so harmful. You know, it's like, you don't know how much it took me to get a PhD and then you're saying I'm a fucking joke. - Yeah, exactly. Because you're not saying what they want, you know? It's so funny. Like, I think, I don't know if you follow Clara, your diet and BFF. - Yes, she's amazing. - She's amazing. - Oh, I love her. She gives a fuck. - I know, that's the level that I want to achieve. - Same here, even Gloria. - She's also Leo. - Yeah, like, oh, really? Oh, gosh. - But she once was saying, and I think it was a TikTok that she had which cracked me up. She said, okay, so I'm a dietitian who just wants to post about reminding you to eat because let's face it, many of us are super busy and we forget to eat, right? She's like, yet that will not get as many views or people will, you know, come down and say that, I don't know what I'm talking about. And she was like, but yet women on the other side of TikTok are doing coffee enemas, you know, sticking it up their bum. And she said, that a million views, no one's questioning it, you know? And so there's this like weird, you know, there's this like disconnect, I think. It's like the more, and I'm sure I can look into this, but there definitely is the more outrageous use, you know, your-- - Yes, your sound. - Yeah, it seems to really capture the audience, which, you know, I understand, right? But at the same time, all I'm doing is telling you to just drink water. - Exactly. - And yeah, someone will say, but you didn't say this. It's like, I'm just reminding you to drink water, like. - Yeah, folks, like forget that. And I remind myself, you know, that we will always be criticized and I say, well, what are they doing with the work? You know, they, and (speaks in foreign language) they criticize so easily, but like, fuck, you're not doing shit. - No, exactly. - You're not doing this work. So like, you don't even know the time, the intellectual time, the person, or the emotion, or the spiritual, everything that goes into a freaking post and then for someone to completely invalidate it? - It's beyond me. Like, emotional for sure. I'm glad you brought that up because I don't think people realize that either. That even, and I don't care if it's just posting a selfie, like whatever the post is, you're putting it out there. I mean, unless your account is private, but you're putting it out there. And I think that sometimes people kind of don't think about that. - Yeah, they take it for granted. Yeah, it's like you're a human. Somehow you're less human, like you're, because you're, I don't know how to explain. I mean, yeah, it's like they see you on a, it's like, oh, you're the same person, you have feelings, you all, everything, you know, but it's easier to be a bully, right? On the, for having a candid conversation about how fucking hard it is to be on social media and I see other content creators who are honest about that to not many. And because it's a lot of vulnerability. For me, it's like, I just want to be me and even share like my fucking struggles because I'm a person and I want to make sure people know, like I'm just like you, I'm like, just another person. I'm not making any of this stuff up because we need to humanize, right? Or experiences and the work that we're doing that it's not easy. It's like, we're going against mainstream society. Like we haven't, we've done that all our lives anyway. - Yeah, exactly. And it's really frustrating to, I think that you summed it up really well. Like sometimes they don't see you as human. And I think they're just like looking at the post, just seeing a screen and they're not associating it with like a person behind. So I think that, and that comes across with sometimes comments, DMs. And quite honestly, I don't even look at DMs anymore 'cause it's too much. Even from like trauma dumping, sometimes I was just like, this, my space is not for you to trauma dump. Like I don't want to sounds like I don't care, but it's not fair for me. And it's not fair for others reading either. Like the trauma dumping too is a lot. - Yes, yes, or this expectation that, how do you navigate this? And it's still rooted in, we're still talking about like undiating and diet culture. It's connected like the labor of women of color, right? The unseen and the emotional labor of folks to just have this liberty of feeling like, I can ask you anything and you're like, you're going to respond. Like somehow you're accessible all the time. And that is like rooted in white supremacy and that is part of diet culture. So even that, just talking about like, not only the content that we're bringing forward, but like how we're negotiating behind the screen. We're not always like, we're not talking about that, but that's also like emotional labor and that stress and that's fatigue, racial fatigue too. - Yeah, definitely, definitely. So it's a ton. It's a lot of, I think layers involved with social media. - Yes. So tell me, Shana, what would, when a front in your own definition are like, what is diet culture? - I define it as a system that profits off of people's insecurities. It is worth billions of dollars. It keeps going up. I think last time I checked, it was like 75 billion or something like that, but it keeps going up. And it just stems from a lot of, there's a lot, right? Misogyny, there's racism. There, you know, all the isms, there's elitism, right? All of it is just so intertwined with diet culture because it's about making you feel bad about yourself and how can, what products can you buy, how to make yourself feel smaller, right? It's all intertwined. And I think that, you know, people, I noticed a lot of people brushing off the word diet culture. They're like, what, like, what are you making up? You know, particularly white men, right? But, you know, surprise, surprise. - Cisgender, heterosexual. - Cisgender, exactly, exactly. Like, no shocker there, no shocker there. But it's so interesting and how people don't see sometimes the intersectionality, which are important to talk about. 'Cause yes, we can talk about, I want you to feel comfortable eating a cookie, right? But I also want you to recognize other systems of diet culture, right? Because what I notice is a lot of, even my colleagues, right, a lot of white women, they love talking about diet culture and misogyny and that type of thing. But once you talk about racism, what? You know, it's because they feel uncomfortable because they're white and they realize that they, exactly, they don't want to talk about that. They realize, you know, part of dismantling white supremacy is knowing that you benefit from it. Not saying that you are racist, but knowing you benefit from it. - Exactly, yeah. - Absolutely, thank you. - Yeah, they will talk about that. Yeah, it's just like how I try to also acknowledge, like, even though I'm black women, like, yes, I do have been privileged. That's why I know my message is better received. I know this, you know? And especially within the black community, we talk about featureism, colorism. I know that I'm benefiting from a lot and I recognize that. And, you know, so it's important to talk about. It doesn't mean that I, you know, still don't get-- - Exactly. - I mean, comments, but it's like, I know these things. So that's what I'm asking you to do as well. Like, you should be recognizing a privilege, you know? - Yes, I appreciate your being candid, Shauna. And I've been thinking a lot about this, perhaps we can do a collaborative post on, like, on this, on the privilege and being a woman of color. And I've talked about the privilege in the past as well, and I've gotten good feedback, a good response, and then negative as well. It's not, it's recognizing like everyone who's listening, we all have some level of privilege, right? We embody both, right? Being, we can be an oppressor and be oppressed, right? But what is important here is to recognize, like, what privilege do I carry? And how does that show up in the world? And how do I divest from it, right? And that's what I do as a professor in, like, trying to do that in social media, especially with white folks. But it's also, like, not our responsibility, right? As professionals, as human beings, as women of color to be educating other, like, white folks about their privilege, that's very taxing and exhausting. - Yeah, and because at the end of the day, interesting, I don't even know how to describe it. Like, maybe this dissonance, like cognitive dissonance or something, where you, you know, you have to know. But at the same time, fully disregarding it or putting your own feelings before that, that's more so what it is. Because, you know, it's really interesting. I forget who, again, I'm getting into politics, but I see such like a parallel. - Of course, they're all connected. - Yeah, I forget, of course, right? Food is political. - Of course, yes. - Said it, it wasn't AOC. Maybe, I don't remember, but anyway, sorry. Someone said, they were just like, you notice how people always say that there is no such thing as hierarchy with folks or any sort of privilege, but yet they work so hard not to dismantle it. - Right. - So they know it's there. Because if they didn't think it was there or if they didn't know it was there like they claim, why are you working so hard against it? - Exactly, 'cause you benefit from it. You're benefiting from it. - You know you benefit from it. - Stop. - Exactly. - So, and this is an invitation for folks who hold different privileges to recognize what they are and how we can de-center and dismantle that. And let's talk about how can we, like how are we doing that as women of color who have thin privilege? How are you divesting from thin privilege? How does that look like in your everyday life and in the work in social media? - Mm-hmm, exactly, exactly. I think it's so important to talk about because at the end of the day, I mean, I would love to, I just don't have the privilege of doing that, right? As the black woman, I would love to act. There's a level of ignorance. I'm not gonna say that it's ill intention from people, but there's a level of ignorance, not recognizing it or not wanting, not choosing to recognize it, I should say. You know, because in a way, you're putting your feelings before what's actually happening, which is the problem. You know, I would love to say, well, yeah, okay, I'm thin, but I still get like random people in my DMs calling me the n-word. So like, I shouldn't have to recognize it. No, I still have to recognize that. - Yeah, exactly. - And also recognize that, you know, I'm still, you know. So it's like, there's this weird dissonance, I think, sometimes from people, yeah. - Yes, yeah, that's why having an intersectional lens is so important is recognizing that it's gonna shift, it's gonna change depending on the context and the interactions that you have with folks. It's like Patricia Hale Collins talks about the matrix of dominations and also, what did she say, the different levels of oppression, right? And so the fact that we're thin does not negate that we experience discrimination and racism, right? And that we have other marginalized identities that also continue to oppress us and limit us. So you can have that truth of I hold this privilege and how am I using it to dismantle the system or to talk about these conversations. And I think that you're doing that work and I love to say that I'm also trying to do it. (laughs) - Yeah, no, I think you are, yeah, for sure. I definitely see your posts. I think I saw posts once about thin privilege, which I thought was really good. - Yeah, it was a long time ago and then I brought it back again. And then I talked about thin privilege and then I had a white woman and a bigger body talked about white privilege. So I love to collaborate with other folks who are interested in moving these conversations forward, which is part of the undiating space. So as stressful because of the backlash, but as stressful as it is in that sense, I also feel like it's rewarding because, I mean, we're pivoting, we're creating social change, you know? - Exactly. - I mean, I'd love to think that. - Yeah, no, I think so too. I think it's important and I used to get stressed out about posting things and you know, you can already tell after posting for so long, you know the comments you're gonna get, right? Like, I wish I could make money. I mean, all the comments I was gonna get, I'd be rich 'cause I already know what's coming, but it's really interesting when people are, and I get it, I get being nervous too, but I think that sometimes, you know, people afraid of losing followers, and I say, that's a good thing, you know? Because you're not, there are eight billion people on this planet, it's a lot of people. You're not gonna please everybody, you know? And so I think that it's really important to stick to what you hold truthful and what you're passionate about and your audience will find you. And I think that, you know, 'cause I keep hearing about people being scared to post things because, you know, they don't know how it's gonna be taken, which I get, but at the same time, people will actually trust you more when you talk about social justice. That's why I talk a lot about all these things, food is political, et cetera. And I'm still shocked that people, some people stay, you know? (laughing) You know who is your core, you know, your community. - Oh yeah, 'cause you speak to that group of people, that's what I'm holding. - Exactly, yes. You know, I appreciate that honesty because, you know, it's not even about like, followers. It's like, for me, it has always been like community, building community, knowing you and building community with you and, you know, how that shows in social media and outside in this space. And that is like the purpose to create this social consciousness and shift in our thinking, 'cause that's part of the critical analysis, right? And healing so that folks can take these conversations with their communities, right? So it has like this trickle domino effect, right? - Exactly. - And it's because of these conversations that are not easy. And I do find like a lot of like, even in Dying Space and even among Latino platforms, I feel like, (speaking in foreign language) they think like, I'm crazy. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, this is not true. You're not talking about all this other stuff. And I'm like, fuck, like, and it makes it hard because it's like, you know, we're a handful of Latinas doing this work, you know? There's Alina, there's myself. There's a couple of other folks, but it's like, it's a handful versus hundreds and thousands of diet culture. So of course they're gonna question your message 'cause it's not popular, right? - It's not. And one thing about Alina, it's so funny because I'm in a group chat with her. We're always like, you know, we're always talking about these things. And she said, she's like, sometimes the worst critics are from your own people because they're still so indoctrinated themselves in this message. It's like, you know, and so when you say things like, actually it's not your fault for X, Y, Z or yes. Or she talked, Alina talks about this a lot where our foods have all of these, you know, which is true, all of these benefits, all of this nutrition and people, she said that sometimes her worst critics or the worst people in the comments are the Latinas. - Haters, yes, I said it is. Oh, I hate that. The crap, like pulling the crap. It sounds like crap, like a crab. - Yes, it's true. I'm just like, and the same thing for me, like, you know, when people, excuse me, I always, it's unfortunate because the sometimes the comments that I get from like other black women where it's like, no, being at this weight is not healthy. I can't believe you're promoting this. So I'm not promoting anything. I'm promoting being healthy for you. And then we also have to dissect what healthy means, right? They don't want to hear that. And it's really unfortunate because it shows how, like kind of this society, like how we hear these messages from birth and just, yeah. - It's like boxed in, like you can't think outside of this. And if you do, if you dare, we're going to make sure that we tell you to go back in line, you know? - That's what it is, that's what it is. It's so, and actually it's so funny because there was this TikTok I saw and she was talking about this like, excuse me, the monkey experiment where you have these monkeys and they were trying to get a banana and each time they got a banana, they were sprayed. So they finally realized, we shouldn't be doing this. Should be grabbing the banana. And so every single time a new monkey was introduced into the group and tried to grab the banana, they beat up that monkey because they were like, no, we're going to be sprayed. But that just shows how after a while we just do things because we're told without questioning why, without really figuring out, wait a minute, where did this stem from? We're just going, we're just like robots, you know? - Yeah, yeah, like sheep, right? - And I think that's so, it's so prevalent. So I always think about that experiment. I'm like, wow, that's sort of what we as humans-- - Yeah, yeah, we've been conditioned our life. Yeah, and it's not just us, but like our parents, grandparents, like so many generations. So that's why when we do, I'm sure that's why you also do this, but it's like we're doing it for ourselves for like, but for all the past generations but we're breaking diet culture, we're saying, fuck you. - Exactly, exactly, it's so important. Yeah, so I have two more questions. One is what do you see right now in the undiating space that you cringe or that you're like, oh, you roll your eyes, like conversations? - I think the amount of privilege that I see, you know, and I always try to say that I want to believe that everyone has the best intention or, you know, with getting their message across or promoting health, but it kind of makes me cringe a little bit when people don't recognize the privilege. You know, you have folks and of course, the misinformation, right? Like you have folks walking around a grocery store, talking about this food is bad because of these ingredients, which is misinformation most of the time. I'm just like, those aren't bad ingredients. Those are just chemicals like spelled out, you know, that's all it is. However, I don't think we're ever talking about things like food insecurity because people, when they think of poverty, they think of other countries. They don't realize that our country is filled with food insecurity, you know, even I live in, you know, New York and even in New York City, where we think of it's so densely populated, there are so many pockets where a supermarket is like two miles away, you know, and it's very inconvenient. So there is food insecurity, food access, and that's not talked about enough. There's sort of an elitism when you're talking about, don't eat this food. That might be the only food someone has access to. - Exactly. So it's, you know, it's just, it just drives me. - Yeah, I think, yeah, yeah. Or what I eat in a day or go come with me, grocery shopping, even the undying space, I can see that and I'm sure you know who these folks are, like, not everyone, I mean, not a lot of people go to Trader Joe's here where I live, you know, like I go to Trader Joe's for certain stuff, but like my community, like not a lot of people, especially working class immigrants, they're not gonna go to Trader Joe's, so. - Trader Joe's, there aren't even a lot. I go to one because it's near the office where I work, but it's not really convenient, you know, it's not like a supermarket supermarket. - Yeah. - And so there is even privilege in that too. - Exactly, or where they're located, like where the grocery stores are located, you know, there's nothing, I just wanna promote our ethnic culture foods and promote these ethnic stores, that we sometimes like people put them in a hierarchy to like less than and they go to the other main streets, but that was more of a side note. So Shanna, what are you currently working on? What are your plans for 2024? - So definitely trying to, I'm trying to get ahold of a newsletter, like I think I'm becoming better at it now, like I started like years ago and then stopped. So now I finally, I'm finally doing it, so I'm working, trying to be more consistent with my newsletter because unlike social media, and even with the newsletter, can't even get all my points across, right? But I find that when I write, I am better with my words and how I come across. So I really liked the newsletter and also, you know, writing in general, I love to do. So writing more, also speaking of writing, I do have a book coming out in August, which I'm so excited about, so that's coming out. - It's just exciting. No, I have a book. - Yeah, I know. (laughing) - More writing, you know. So that we'll be hearing more about that, but yes, so that's all coming out. - That's so exciting. So tell us Shanna, where can people find you on social media and any offerings if you have any? - Yeah, definitely. I think that I'm pretty easy to find, actually, because all my social media, when I think about it, is the Nutrition Tea. Yeah, and so pretty easy to find. So on all the platforms, definitely more engaged on Instagram, I would say, just, you know, I'm an elder millennial, so, you know, I can't really do the TikTok thing, but I'm there as well. And also, my newsletter, if you are on Substack, that's where I am as well, which I try to put out at least two per week. So that's where you can find my work, yeah. - Wonderful, which does it ask? Yes, is there anything else you would like to add? I know I can keep, I think I can talk to you for hours. I spend the whole day with you, you know? (laughing) Anything else you wanna add that I didn't ask, that you want the audience to take away with? - Just remembering, you know, when we're talking about food, that it just encompasses so many aspects. Like, yes, it's important to get our nutrients and things like that, but just always remembering that there's more to food than just fueling your body. Like, there's a joyful component. So just always reminding people to enjoy what they're eating as well, is just an important aspect. - Yes, please, my pleasure and joy in your eating. Muchas gracias, thank you so much. I have a lot of gratitude for your time today and just all the work that you do. Gracias, gracias. - Thank you, thank you so much as well. (laughing) - Thank you everyone for tuning in. I will see you in the next episode of "Dismantling Diet Culture." Fuck bien, calladita, nos vemos. (upbeat music) - Muchas gracias por acompañarme in "Dismantling Diet Culture." Fuck bien, calladita podcast. 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