The Internet Owes Denise Richards an Apology

is this thing on you guys welcome to another dumb one podcast i am in studio with an absolute legend who i have been wanting to interview for so long and we're here in la and i'm finally sitting face to face with my girl denise richards how are you baby i'm good thank you so much for having me i'm so excited no the pleasure is mine like thank you so much for just you know making time for me in your day to come out and do this interview because i'm just like i'm so excited i went down a wormhole about you last night and oh well no girl i've got them too so don't worry about it but no i literally went down a wormhole and what i discovered was is there's two denise richards there's one that the tab have painted and then there's the woman that is actually denise richards who has the hugest heart and is just so kind and so sweet and so loving and i'm hoping that today at the end of this interview everybody gets to discover that one and not what the tabloids say thank you yeah absolutely but first off we need to talk about what's really important here we got to talk about the space lift yes sister because i'm i'm seeing it in person now it looks so good so does yours and i was so happy to see that you were open about yours too yeah absolutely i mean i first of all and this is no shade to anybody in the industry but if you're going to get work done just fucking be honest about it yeah and i understand if there's some that don't want to say anything but if you're asked about stuff i think to say i couldn't say nothing you know no i feel like i feel like our job quote unquote as people that are online and pushing a narrative of our lives i feel like we owe that to public that might just be me but i just feel like we as especially as women because there's such a false beauty standard of like trying to like uphold and i never want a little girl to look at me and be like i want to look just like her it's like girl i don't even look like me you know it's like yeah so i always want to be honest and the pressure of other women too seeing other women and i i wanted to be honest with that too because i also want to know what's everyone using what are they doing and you know even my sister she lives in montana and she's like i don't know i don't know she works at a hospital she has a completely different job than i do and and you know i'll tell her certain things about other people that i know she'll keep a secret and she said i it made her feel so much better to see that more and more women um coming out and saying different things because i had i got my implants when i was 19 years old and i was so private about it i never said anything to anyone and i think the very first time it was even out was howard stern asked me a well you never spoke about i'm like well no one ever flat out asked me right you know yeah so you didn't lie right i didn't offer the information but then when somebody did you were honest yeah and um you know so i i love that you did and i you know i i think it's good to share you know what we're doing and different you know serums and peptides or whatever yeah someone does so and yours looks so good so does yours you're i'm like looking at your face it's immaculate what exactly did you have done because i i'll tell you what i had done so i told so i went to dr ben tally and originally i had been thinking about doing just my neck and then it's the neck that always goes first ladies yes always and then a friend of mine she's very well known and she's not public about hers and she said to me you have to do the whole thing i'm like i don't want to do the whole thing i was scared i've never done anything i've done a little botox and then i did some fillers i was like 300 pounds when i did those no and me too yeah i'll emphasize on that whenever you are done telling me about your story because fillers i don't think people realize they fill up with water and they literally like expand your face yeah i was yeah so i so i didn't do um didn't do much and then when i saw dr ben and he explained things to me and i thought you know what it's uh the only analogy i could give is like if you remodel a house and you do one room and the room looks great but it doesn't match the rest of the house and so i told him you know you're the artist his work was impeccable i saw so many before and afters and i just said do what you want to do i was terrified but he did everything he did the lower the neck the lower um face the upper the brow lift the only thing he didn't do were my lower lids he did my upper lid but i mean he did the whole thing and i'm sorry i don't know if you had the brow lift but that is no freaking joke yeah pain yeah okay let's talk about the pain because my recovery i'm still numb are you still not i'm numb um like right here on my under my chin here i'm good when did you have yours i had mine done in march okay i had my oh so you're still so i had mine done exactly a year ago oh okay okay in june so it gets better it gets yeah and that was the other thing when i was told oh it'll it gets better as you heal and i'm like how with gravity how are we gonna get better and it does it's like your face settles or something so it was the best thing i did for myself no it looks phenomenal and i i don't think people realize how big of a surgery it is like the recovery i thought that i was going to be up and walking around in like a month and no i mean i was down for the count i had to like go into hiding for a little bit like it was a lot and so freaking painful it's painful did so with your brow lift were your incisions up in here yes and then you had to pull those things out did you have to pull the stuff out of your head no i went somewhere though he makes his incisions out of his head and i had to pull them out of my head and i had to pull them out of my head and i had to pull them out of my head and i had to pull them out of my head and i had to pull them out of my head and i had to pull them out of my head and i had to pull them out of my head and i had to pull them out of my head and i had to pull them out of my head and i had to pull them I'd wake up and they'd be like, it looks better. I'm like, no, it doesn't. I know. I trusted the process. And I feel like that was the most painful. I wasn't prepared for that pain. No. And I feel I have a high tolerance of pain. Yes, ma'am. But he explained, because some people that get the brow lift, their incision is right here. And you can see it. So I love that it's up in here. I bought shit balls. Does that hurt? Yeah, yeah. No, it's terrible. Mine was the neck. I felt like I was choking. Did you get that sensation where you felt? I think my head hurt so bad I didn't notice the neck. She's like, girl, I had other problems. But it didn't, that pain, well, I heard right before I went in, oh, your head could hurt. And I was like, oh, how bad can, you know, I was a little nervous about that. And then when I was told I'll be all wrapped up and I thought, am I going to feel claustrophobic? But you're so out of it from that surgery. It's like, I didn't even know. My head was wrapped really until the next day and you took it off. But yeah, it's a headache that you can't explain. It's not like a migraine. It's like you just had your face peeled back headache. And unless you've had your face peeled back, you don't know what it feels like. I know. But it does, you know, the first night was the roughest for me. Yeah. I don't know for you. Mine was the first night because of the anesthesia just didn't agree with me. I was under for like about six hours and it was. I think I was too. Yeah, it was brutal. And then I think like. Around day six or seven, I was just like, I want off this ride. And my doctor was like, you're on it for the next year. I was like, fuck, I want off this ride. But circling back to the filler situation, I just want to for the girls at home that are listening that do get filler, just be careful when you get it in your face because it literally it expands, it gets lumpy, it migrates to other places in your face, and then you end up having to get it melted and getting a facelift anyway. Right. So. If I were you, I would just do minimal Botox. And then when the time comes, get that stuff peeled back. Yeah. And you know, I always said I wouldn't get a facelift. And I'm one that says never say never. Yeah. I was like, oh, I'm never getting it because I didn't want to not look like myself. Right. But. I think you look amazing. Thank you. You look like just refreshed and like you look young. Like it looks so good. Thank you so much. I'm going back on the eighth because he didn't do under my eyes either. And so I'm going back on the eighth to get the skin pinch under the eyes and some more fat transfer. And then I'm done. I swear. You look amazing. And that's the thing, too. I feel when you go to someone good. Yeah. It's and that's just because someone's a surgeon. And this is the other thing that I think it's important for girls and young women and women that aren't as young to know that it's it's you have to go to someone really reputable and skilled just because they're a plastic surgeon doesn't mean they're good. Yes. You need to look at their work before and months after. Yes. Don't look right after. Look like six months. A year after like you want somebody who's going to do natural work. You don't want to look like cat lady when you're coming out of coming out. Definitely. And you look like you. But it's the same thing. Refreshed. And thank you. I appreciate it. I feel like it's never enough. You know, like I feel like we're our worst critics because we're always looking at ourselves on cameras. Yeah, for sure. We're women. We're never happy. We don't make comments on it. Someone else will anyway. So I don't think you're flawed. You'll see it. Listen, I'm so tired of the fucking Internet, man. I'm tired of it. All right. So let's start. Let's circle back and let's talk about before Hollywood got a hold of you. You're born in Illinois and your family moved to California and you were a cheerleader. Can we like go back to, you know, when Denise was just before Denise was known as Denise Richards? Yeah, I grew up in Illinois. My dad worked there. worked for the phone company. My dad was just hardworking. We didn't have money. My mom was stay-at-home mom. They got married. My dad was 21. My mom was, I think, 16 or 16 and 20. They had me at 17 and 21. So he was just out of Vietnam. And they were young parents. Wow. He was a Vietnam vet. He's a Vietnam vet. Yeah. Right after he got out, he and my mom got together and then got married and had me. And then my sister, we're a year and a half apart. And so we just grew up. We were, I just had, I don't even know what normal is, but just a, well, we were part of the Nielsen family for people that don't know. Back then, that's how they saw which TV shows were popular. They put a little Nielsen box on our TV. We were your typical all-American family of four. Yeah. So they could see the ratings and things. So my mom had dinner at six o'clock every night. We had to make sure we were there. Weekends were family time. We went to church every Sunday. I was raised Catholic. And then my dad saw a TV show, Battle of the Network Stars. It was this competition show for people that don't know in the late 80s of celebrities that would compete. And it was in January. And my dad could not believe, because he was climbing telephone poles in the winter in Illinois with blizzards and stuff. And he just got so tired of the weather. And up and moved our family after he saw people were wearing shorts in California. Don't you love how simple life was back then? Yeah. And literally moved us. I had just finished my freshman year in high school. It was such a hard move for me to make that transition. And then in high school, my sister and I, we always had the same job together. We worked at Haagen-Dazs and Baskin Robbins. I bagged groceries at Albertsons and did all that. And then my mom entered me into a model search. And I came in second. And an agent from LA saw me and signed me. And so I started driving up to LA and started modeling, doing teen magazine and stuff like that. And then I went to Japan right after I graduated high school. I can't even believe my parents let me go. I mean, shit, if they knew really how that was. But I went. How was it? How was it? I was so naive. I was a very sheltered. My parents really sheltered my sister and I. My mom was raised in a very abusive family. And my dad, you know, his brother had a lot of drug addiction. And so they really sheltered my sister and I. My mom passed away years ago. But she said before that she did that, you know, on one hand, she felt that she sheltered my sister and I a little too much because I was so I was so naive. I was I was always had a good, good gut instincts about people and had a good head on my shoulders. Like I never got into any, you know, drugs or alcohol or the wrong people. I was just I was too scared because my dad put the fear of God in us with that. And so I when I started modeling in Japan, it was what's interesting is I was I was very flat back then. I couldn't even fit into a Victoria's Secret bra. And yeah, I was really tiny. That was the model look back then. Also, that's what people wanted. Well, actually, no, yeah, this was kind of like it was Kate, Moss before Kate Moss, but it was like Cindy Crawford, the voluptuous body, the cosmopolitan cover. Yeah. And so in Japan, it worked because they well, they wanted me to do lingerie. And it's funny, years later, I did Playboy and all of that. Back then, I remember I was 18. I looked 15. Yeah, I was I looked so young. And I told the agency, I'm not going to model bras and underwear. And they almost dropped me. But I was making money. It was some of the other jobs that I did there. So they kept me. My dad was ready to fly out there and bring me home. Because he thought it was like something else. And then by yourself, I did with the modeling agency, like they came and scouted girls in LA. Yeah. And then brought a bunch of us out there. But I flew there by myself. I which I can't believe it. Like I didn't know anything. Yeah, I was just so naive town girl on a flight to Japan. Yeah, they don't take care of us the way they, I think, told the parents that they do as far as security and stuff like that. We were really on our own. And then I went to New York after that. And but I always wanted to act. And so I just moved back to LA, moved to LA. And then I, you know, lived in several different places and just got an agency. I was signed with the children's division, Harry Gold, Tracy Gold, the actress who was on Growing Pains. Yeah, her dad had an agency and, and I played like, 14, 15 years old. And because I was over 18, at that point, I was like, I was able to work long hours without having to worry about that. And so I just did build my resume doing even one line here. What was the Saved by the Bell was one of my first jobs. Yep, I have. And that's how I got my SAG card between that and Doogie Howser. I got Taft Hartley with one and then the SAG card with the other. Your lore goes on forever. Like when I discovered that you did Married with Children, Saved by the Bell, I mean, like 90210. Like this was like the icon. This was like when Hollywood was like, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know. It was like, Hollywood. I agree with you. It's not the same anymore. And I feel like you got to be a part of just history. I'm so grateful for that time. And I think a lot of other actresses and actors that I know that, you know, we would, it's such a nostalgic time driving around with our Thomas guide. There was no, you know, ways back then. And yeah, I would just we would just go there was like a pilot season. Yeah, you know, during that time of year, you would hope you book a pilot. And yeah, I would just go there was like a pilot season. And during that time of year, because I was able to build up my resume, I was able to, you know, audition for other jobs, but I was so green. And but I was so focused, like I was so really loved doing it and had my acting classes. And then Married with Children, the producers cast a pilot and I auditioned for that and got it didn't we thought, Oh, Married with Children, it'll go to series. I didn't. And Married with Children, the producers cast a pilot and I auditioned for that and had my acting classes. And then Married with Children, the producers cast a pilot and had my acting classes. And so I'd have to audition several times to, you know, read with other actors. So then you get the part and you're so excited. And then, especially at the level of Aaron Spelling, who has, you know, everything television and same with the producers of Married with Children at the time Married with Children was doing so well, you think, Oh, this will get picked up and be a huge hit. Yeah. And then it didn't. It's just such a letdown. But I always felt to every job that I didn't get that one job. But I always felt to every job that I did. It was so worth like, you know, busting my ass and just learning really hard and learning and even doing one line on set. Sometimes I'd wait around for 12 hours before they got to me and I would really watch the other actors and try and learn and because in acting class, I felt like they didn't teach us hitting your mark and doing the one that I went to. And those are the little things that were great for me to watch other actors and really try to learn. And then Starship Troopers came. We just Paul Verhoeven. Actually, I auditioned for I came close with showgirls. And then Oh, with Elizabeth. Yeah, that movie, I to this day is still one of my favorite movies because I'm a Vegas girl. I know. So like, you know, during my generation of growing up, I'm 46. That was like, you know, me being a dancer and stuff like that. So that was like my withering heights. Right. You know, like, that was like, my iconic movie that you look up to whenever you think of, like movies growing up. And where were you when that came out? Like, I was in Vegas. Yeah. And I think what year did that come out? Do we know? I might have already been 90s. Okay, so I was like, 9596. So I think it came out in 1995. We had them look it up. So I was 15. But I was on my way to being a stripper. You know, so growing up in Vegas back then, dancing was so much more glamorous than it is now like, and it wasn't so oversaturated. So I always say that if you grew up in Vegas in that era, a lot, not everybody, but a lot of girls wanted to be either a showgirl, or a dancer. And if you couldn't make it being a showgirl, you became a dancer. So that what what role did you Elizabeth's role? Oh, wow. Okay. So when I auditioned for that, and then then when Starship Troopers came around, audition for that obviously, and that was a long process over a few months, they went everywhere. Casting and then it came down to like, I went in probably five or six times, Casper and I, at the end, it was just a screen or Yeah, we did a screen test together. And we were like, we found out was just us and we're like well if we don't get it we're really fucked up you know what's so crazy is that um initially the movie didn't do great but then now it's like known as one of the greatest satirical sci-fi films ever made like it's a cult classic i know it's so funny how i just started going to comic cons about a year and a half ago with them with the cast from starship and it's just so humbling meeting the fans and how their kids watch it my kids haven't even seen the movie right i don't even i think for a long time they didn't even know i was in it i think it's because your mom yeah you know so it's like we see you every day we don't need to see you on the movie screen it's like when i wrote my book my family didn't even read it until i was like can you guys read the book please you know yeah but i think it's because they're just they know the real us so it's like they don't need to you know see our art i guess is what you could say i agree yeah it's funny because they don't even know half the stuff i've been in sammy saw a tiktok of me on friends and she was like mom you did friends and i said yeah she goes why didn't you tell me and i said well what am i supposed to say oh by the way i did friends let's let's pivot real quick um as before we get into the your wild things era um and talk about your girls because i follow um it's sammy yeah i follow sammy on tiktok i love her she's spicy she's very spicy but you know what i feel like and we can cut this out if we do but i feel like she's kind of charlie's karma in a way you don't have to cut it yeah i feel like she gives him a run for his money you know and he needs that i think um he does because she out of all the kids i feel stands up to him yes and um you know and he does need it you know we all do yes and but uh yeah she's uh she's i love that she i wish i had her confidence when i was her age however i do wish sometimes she filtered herself a little bit when she's saying stuff sometimes you're like can we not have another headline please right but i'd rather her be the way she is than you know have to i love that she's not afraid to be who she is and that's something that i really admire in her and she and lola could not be more opposite so opposite and that's what i was just about to say she's so like sweet and loves jesus and then you know we got sammy over here who's of model and like doesn't give a flying f of what's going on so yeah no it's funny how did you raise such polar opposite children i don't know that's the thing well and my dad reminded me my sister and i are very opposite too um but i don't know that i they don't even look alike my girls no not at all not like i was with the milkman or something but it's crazy because they both look like both of you in different ways it's really yeah crazy if you see like i watched an interview with the three of you guys uh you and your girls yesterday and you can see like the mannerisms the eyes the like facial structure like one of them like you can see charlie and both of them you can see you and both of them so it's like i don't know it's like a perfect mixture and they're both beautiful oh thank you yeah of course and you're just such an amazing mom you really are like for saying that raising children in the limelight is not easy i haven't had to do it to the extent that you have um considering everything that you've been through and had to bring those babies along with you is a testament of the woman that you are because thank you they're such good they're good kids you know like sammy's not hurting anybody she's just on tiktok she's living her life you know funny sometimes she'll say something i'm like you posted that yeah i'm like all right what is your relationship like with both of them i have a good great relationship with both of them right now oh wow we're staying together i shouldn't say they're living together they're staying together that's amazing because i did see a little they had like a little tip online a couple of months ago and she's like oh yeah it's normal i know they sister exactly they'll get into it whatever and then i'll they'll call me from lunch and i'm like i'm so glad the sisters are getting along right now um yeah no we it's funny because i have a they're more open with me than they're than i was with my mom when i was their age and i had a great relationship with my mom but i think i was always afraid of being judged and i was always very um you know careful even when i did interviews and stuff like that i just was not a hundred percent myself a version like a part of me there was things i held back and stuff because um i was just such a people pleaser and i love that the to so much online and that sort of thing or if it's because they were raised in hollywood and um you know and that's something too they both have said to me that it's hard to be kids of famous parents and and i can't even relate to that because i grew up in illinois and i didn't have to deal with you know from the time they were babies the paparazzi were at the hospital and so you know to them it's normal but it has effect had an effect on them um not necessarily you know negative it's different from how some of their other friends and how i was raised but um and i can't imagine you know being now for them to even even stuff going on in my life for them to hear about it it's weird yeah you know and when with my divorce with her their dad they were so little i thought okay by the time they're older they're not gonna hear anything well the internet has changed tremendously yes yeah and it's like they'll bring up shit from 20 years ago and it goes viral and you're like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like wait what is happening yeah yeah you can't hide anything but i think to circle back to what you said about um that they're more open with you i think that shows that you've created such a safe space with them that they are they feel safe enough with you to come to you and tell you everything so that's amazing thank you i i try to raise them in that and my mom did raise me that like my mom was never judgmental for me it was more of being a people pleaser but i've tried to we may not agree with people's choices but to not judge and i may not agree with certain things they say or do but that i'm not making it's hard like i just i'm not saying you can't do that or don't do that or don't be who you are i might not agree with certain ways just like they don't agree with certain ways things believe me they've told me things that i do you're like i did it for you you know um so when it comes to their relationship with their father which we'll get into charlie in a little bit um and i think that's a really good question because i think that's a really good um can we touch base on both of their relationships with charlie and like how do you encourage them to have that relationship because to me and this is me speaking freely is that he seems like he's kind of hard to get along with so just from what i've gathered from sammy's tiktoks and stuff like that too well i think so during our divorce which was so public i i wanted the girls to have their relationship with him without um you know any negativity around it i wanted i wanted them to know their dad as dad not as charlie sheen because there was many years where i didn't know if he was going to be here and i didn't want the kids to only know about their father from what they were going to read about him and so every any time he was in a good space where they could spend time with him i encouraged it i never spoke badly about him in front of the kids i never spoke badly about him in front of the kids i never would anyone that was hired in in my house i like the shit stays out the door right you don't we don't talk negatively about him at all and to the point where they've discovered things later like why didn't you tell me this about you know and i'm sure there's things that they're saying to their dad why didn't you tell me this about mom so it goes both ways and i know that but um i really wanted to protect the innocence of the father-daughter relationship as much as i could and there's no way to protect the innocence of the father-daughter relationship as much as i could and there's no and i didn't know that was such a crazy insane time it got more insane actually after we were divorced like during his marriage to yeah the tiger phase yeah which we'll get into that a little bit too i know jesus christ and then you know with his poor niece she's like i'm just trying to live oh it's like i would get dragged into all of that but you know i will say even charlie always knew too that no matter what i was there for him yeah he could call me at two o'clock in the morning and if he needed my help and i would be there and i think that's the most amazing gift that i've ever had and i think that's the most amazing gift that i've ever had that you could ever give somebody is them knowing that you will always be there for them sometimes it's selfless on on your part or our parts or women who do that but at the same time i think um undying loyalty is just so special and so priceless oh thank you it was um i wanted him to be the best version of himself that he could be and i always supported him i always kept his secrets i never extorted him um it made me sad seeing you know some of the people that were around in his life that were doing things it was hard to watch actually um but you know even if he would get mad at me about something or whatever he still he knew he could count on me and he knew he could tell me anything and i wasn't wouldn't judge him i wouldn't i would be there and so we went through a really you know up and down time um over the years too yeah absolutely so when it comes to the girls how is their relationship with him now right now it's um i think it's it's good um it has its moments because you know sometimes it's better than others um which is normal i think for teenage girls and their dads too i do think that's normal you know and that's how it is for teenage girls and their moms too you guys there's gonna be sometimes you guys like each other and there's gonna be sometimes you don't and it just happens i do think that there should come a time um where they should really talk to their dad because so much happened when they were growing up and ask them questions and why and and feel that you know because there would be times where he wouldn't show up on christmas and i would i would have to lie and make up stuff and i protected him i would say i wasn't going to tell them the truth how do you tell this to little girls what's really going on and some people would would judge me and like you got to tell them what i'm like how do i say that SEAN: you know they're already um so fragile and going through you know even though i try to keep as much from them as possible they're aware they pick up on energy and and also there was a time their brothers lived with us for about a year so obviously they knew some shit was going on there and um you know it was i did the best i could it wasn't perfect and there's probably a lot of things i would have changed and done differently but you know i think that there's in my opinion i SEAN: feel like that's what's going on and that's why i think that's what i'm trying to do and SEAN: and i feel there's still like the elephant in the room that them they're all not addressing and i hope one day that they feel comfortable enough and safe enough where they could just be open and say certain things um charlie's very we have a great relationship he lives close to us actually and his boys live with him right now and um you know i can give him shit and joke around with them and you know he respects me and i respect him too and i want only the best for him and want him to do well and he knows if he needs anything i'm here and and i think it's important for us always to maintain a relationship we have that we have our daughters and and that would be something that i think along the way that was hard for him i would say no matter what's going on with you and i let's put our shit aside and they don't need to be dragged into anything yeah you know and often times that wouldn't happen and it is what it is but um at the end of the day he knows that i only have their best interest in his too yeah is there a part of you that still feels like you might be in love with charlie no and that's the thing like some people i think misunderstood like in with uh i did his documentary i didn't see the second part i saw the first part um i love him as their dad yeah you know i and it's it's not even a brother sister relationship it's best friends you guys have been through some shit yeah um i wouldn't say best friends yeah we're friends but i mean do you know what i can't talk to him the way i can talk to some other friends of mine and i i i love him as their i will always have love for him being their dad but as far as like a romantic love no no um at all um i'm glad we cleared that up because i did watch the documentary and from the way they shot the documentary it kind of made it they i don't wanna say they made it seem like you still had like feelings for him but just there's so much emotion there with you guys i think there's a lot of emotion because there's things that he didn't even know right a lot that he did not know and how i had to like navigate so much shit yeah oh let's talk about it we'll go we'll circle back to the wild things thing in a minute but you and charlie so take me back to when you and charlie first met you guys met on um the filming of good advice yeah we met um when we did that movie together and at the time i was with my ex who he passed away a couple months ago um patrick moldoon um he was a friend of mine of 37 years and we were on and off for like five years and at the time we were still together when i met charlie and and then charlie was going off to do spin city and then a year later i um patrick and i had just broken up and then i did like an arc of four episodes on spin city and it was during spin city that we started to date and then and there was it was like over a period of i think two months that i was doing the show because sitcom it's a couple weeks on a week off whatever and we thought we're not going to tell anyone but it was quite obvious that we were dating but like what a hot couple dude young charlie charlie sheen and then you i mean come on dude like young charlie was hot he's very handsome yeah yeah no he's still very handsome is he yeah yeah and he uh you know he's very shy and when i met him people think that oh she reformed the bad boy that's not the case he was i don't know the person that well i got to know after you know right during the tiger blood days but at the time i didn't know the person the person i met was had been sober for four and a half years went to aa was very focused and just uh a very calm nurturing person and that's who i fell in love with and do you think that's the real charlie i don't know because i went back and forth to like on one hand i do know that you know whatever went sideways with our marriage the one thing i don't doubt is i don't doubt that he didn't love me i really believe that he loved me you know but i feel i was also very ignorant and uneducated in addiction and many people would ask me when i got together with him are you aren't you afraid he's gonna relapse and i naively said no and and i think part of it i didn't know that person you didn't know especially because your dad dealt with addiction so he sheltered with his brother yeah much from it right yeah dad dealt with the addiction with his brother so he sheltered you yes from it so much and then you marry an addict which is you know it just that just goes to show that generational trauma and curses are always at play yeah and even being growing up in young adult in hollywood i and i know people are not going to believe this but i had never seen cocaine because i people that i was close with knew i didn't do drugs it actually scared me i was not i didn't see it until during his tiger blood days that was the first time i actually saw a coke in person wow tell me about this story well there's many with that she's like there's not just one no there's several um yeah no i was so naive and then when things went sideways they went sideways but during his tiger blood days i i would you know his security would often call me to help him because they would get fired if they knocked on his bedroom door they so bad it was just really bad and he was like in the the deepest like rock bottom yeah and it was actually a shame the people around him because he was on such a hit show made a boatload of money and they didn't want you know they almost in a weird way enabled it i feel like any man that has a certain amount of money for some reason everybody around them starts becoming a yes man oh yeah and nobody tells them no the ego goes way out just crazy and then they're literally spiraling hitting rock bottom it's like a tale as old as yeah because if they did say no he'd fire them right so if you wanted to work for him you had to do what he wanted i don't think he'll care that i'm sharing that but um you know it was hard for me to watch that everyone turning their head to how bad he was and almost propping him up to do his show at that point i feel like during your guys's divorce back in that time um the tabloids really villainized you um how are you feeling during this like you're literally you're you're six months pregnant right you file for divorce what was that factor of like everybody's always like oh well what made you leave and it's like what was your decision to just start your life over is how i would um never publicly said there was an incident where i had no choice i felt to i had to get out and um and that's when i filed um and then we uh kind of reconciled a little bit right after that and part i knew it wasn't gonna work but i felt you know i came from my mom and dad were married until death do us part until my mom passed away and so that was my role model and i didn't want to be divorced so i wanted to know too that if my girls ever talked to me about it that i could honestly tell them i did everything i could to try to keep the marriage together even though i knew it wasn't going to work and so we didn't we reconciled shortly and then after that you know it's a whole it was a different time too and i was telling the girls this there wasn't on instagram where instantly there would be stories out there it was a weekly tabloid so yeah and it would run all week and then there would be another thing and there was a time i think i was on the cover of the book and i was like oh my god i'm gonna be divorced and i'm gonna all these tabloids for two and a half years in total i'm going through i'm going through it right now with my divorce everything we do is a freaking headline and it's just like it's i couldn't even imagine going but uh so it was an awful time for me because i had never gotten bad press before right and i felt that i'm i'm just trying to protect my girls and my it was the hard thing with all that too was that it affected my career right that's what i was gonna say like what's the hardest thing is it like survival surviving that situation or just the people not believing you that are around you um the people that were closest to me knew the truth right and but then there were people that there were people that worked for me that were starting to believe the tabloids and i was was so shocked. And I said, and, and then the truth came out. Yeah. Even though it took a while. But how did you sit, like, how did you sit so idle and just take it on the chin like that? Because that is so, that you are beauty, you are grace, because that's like, I have the hardest time because I have the podcast. So anytime something comes up, I'm like, Hey guys, you know, like, and, but you didn't do that. You sat just so. It was hard. I, well, first of all, I didn't know it would go on as long as it did. And I think in hindsight, if someone said, you're going to have to deal with this for a few years, I think I would have said, well, fuck that. I'm going to say something. Um, it was very, very difficult because also he was on a network television show owned by a studio and he was like loved by everyone, you know, um, men wanted to be him and women wanted to be with him. And I was just, but to turn on the woman is so crazy too. I know, but it happens and they just think, Oh, she's the gold digging bitch. That's trying to take them down. And I just. True. I really just wanted to protect the girls. And later he thanked me, you know, he knew, um, I didn't know it'd be so public. I was surprised by that. And I really thought, well, this is my personal life. Why can't we separate it? But I lost jobs. I couldn't work. That was so hard for me. And at one point I really had to form a bubble around myself because I thought, and I have a really good family. Um, we're really close. And if it weren't for them, who knows what would have happened or my close, you know, core, um, friends who are my family too. I could have gone one way or the other. Like it was to where I was like, I can't go into a depression and feeling like everyone hates me. And this, it was awful, awful. And, you know, I just had to block everything out. And I told everyone, I don't, I can't read anything. I can't hear about it. At the end of the day, what matters is my daughters and my family and my core group. And, you know, when at the end of the end of the day, what's there for you is them. And do I really have, I don't, I felt like the truth will eventually come out. I didn't want to be the one to say stuff. I only said stuff, um, mostly in court documents. Sometimes as years went on and interviews, I would briefly say certain things, but I always tried to be respectful. Um, because anytime I, if I did say anything, it would backfire. Right. They twist your words and they twisted it. But then it was interesting then when stuff went down, then it flipped. And then even the studio, when they, things happened with him, they would pull my documents from court and use that as their defense, which I get, but it was hard to have everyone's shit on me and to where I couldn't get a job. It was really tough. Do you still hold anger for that? Or do you look back at it compassionately now? I don't like, you mean towards Charlie or towards everyone? I mean, it's like PTSD. Yeah. I didn't have anger at it. I had hurt that I was so misunderstood, you know, and that, how could that be portrayed that way with, you know, I was just trying to protect my daughters. I wasn't, you know, trying to, um, tear anyone, him down, you know, I wanted him to be the best he could, but I also wasn't going to put my kids in a certain situation that I didn't feel was safe. Your mama bear. Yeah. And so, that was just, that was a very difficult time. And then I lost my mom during that time, which was really awful. And I just felt like I couldn't let my life crumble. I had two babies, you know, Sammy and Lola were a, are a year apart. They're 15 months apart. They're Irish twins. So you're going through all of this. You're in the, you guys are having the most brutal divorce publicly. And in the midst of his whole tiger blood era, you take in his two, twins from his other marriage to Brooke is her name. And I remember watching that as it was happening. And I even thought to myself, like, this woman is a saint. Like you are literally getting drug through the freaking media and just left and right. You can't do anything right. And in the midst of it all, you go and you save these babies and you have them live with you. You said earlier for about a year, about a year. They were what put that, what, what's going through your mind as you're taking these babies in and in this situation? I, what a lot of people don't know is before that happened, I was watching them quite often and Brooke, whenever she, she would call me and ask me, can you take the boys? And I would take them. And sometimes it'd be like for a few weeks and then they would go back to her. And so their preschool got to know me. They got to know my dad, you know, we got them to school and, and then she would take them back and it would just be pretty, um, I'd be accused of all kinds of stuff. But, and I, and then every time I'd be like, next time she calls, I can't do this. It's too much drama. But at the same time, I wanted to be there for the boys and it's my daughter's brothers. And then when the state got involved, um, that they would ask like the people in the boys' lives who would be the best person to take them. Um, and they had said me and, and so then the state asked, you know, but there's a whole thing with that too, which is very difficult, which I didn't know. Um, it's a difficult process to go through and to be part of actually. Um, so, you know, I had them for almost a year and, uh, and then they went, I believe to Brooke's brother after, after me. Um, and then I didn't see them for quite a few years, which was really hard. So, but do you still have a relationship with them? Yeah, I do. Yeah. We reconnected a few years ago and I'm so glad. And they remember they were little, but I, you know, and a lot of people asked me about that too. And it's, they're, they're my daughter's brothers too. So whatever's going on with all of us adults, it's, it is what it is. And, you know, that I would, I couldn't imagine my brothers or sisters not, you know, being in the state system and having to go live with foster parents that no one even knows. Right. So I wanted to be there and to help them, even though it was very difficult being part of that whole system. Um, but I, you know, wanted to do what I could for them. It's amazing what you did. What's your relationship with Brooke that, uh, these days? Um, I haven't seen her in a long time, unfortunately. Uh, you know, she's been dealing with her addiction. Um, and it's, uh, it's sad and it's tough. Um, you know, I know that we'll talk again. Yeah. And do you have an open door policy? Oh yeah. Yeah. I do. Like when you're, when you're, you're better come to me. Yeah. Or call me, you know, whenever, even when she's not better, she can call. Um, I'll still talk to her and stuff. Where do you think your compassion comes from? Cause you have so much compassion for people and so much empathy, even when it's not being reciprocated. Um, I think it's how I was raised by my parents. My mom, you know, I, Charlie would be like, did you, were you raised in a fucking circus? Like what's your family? All of these people. I grew up, you know, my grandma owned a bar in Wisconsin and there would be these, you know, uh, customers that, you know, don't they have one leg or whatever. And my, my grandpa had a one leg and, and, you know, and when I was explaining our relatives and he asked me that, I'm like, well, shit, I didn't even look at everyone that way. But I think I just grew up with, you know, a lot of, uh, people in our, in the family that had certain things going on. And my mom would always just, you know, I would just, you know, just, we just didn't judge and we just loved people and embrace them. And I didn't grow up with money. And so I, anytime, as I started making money too, and see people that are less fortunate or need help with something, I want to be there and help. I think it obviously, I think obviously my mom and dad. Yeah, absolutely. So let's go back to the wild things because we cannot have a podcast without talking about wild things. Let me get to it in my notes because do you feel like your breakout that like kind of made you a household name? And I know it was because of the kiss, but I mean, I just think the whole movie and that whole era was, you know, fricking iconic. So take me on this journey with wild things. So I had just shot starship troopers and auditioned for wild things completely. Oh, and by the way, in starship troopers, Paul Verhoeven, before we started shooting, we had a big, um, we got to do pre-production, which doesn't happen on a lot of movies, but this one it did where we had, um, we had a big, um, we got to do pre-production, which had a couple months to prep and everything. He called me into his office and he said, um, so I wrote a scene and he showed it to me and you're going to be topless in it and this and that. And I was scared to death. Like I worked so hard to get this movie. Mind you, I auditioned for show girls. Right. And I said, you would have been naked the whole time. Yeah. And so I said to Paul, I said, Paul, um, I don't, I can't do that scene. It's not, he's like, well, you would have been, you were going to be naked for me and show girls. I go, yeah, but that's a completely different part. It's a different, this is just, yeah. I said, this makes no sense for the scene. If I was in the shower scene with everyone else. Okay. Yeah. You're naked in a shower, but this is just so you could see my tits. And I said, I just, and I, I left, I drove away crying, called my agent. I said, I think I just got fucking fired. And then he was like, what do you mean? I told him I was so scared. I was going to get fired. So cut to, I auditioned for, um, wild things and, uh, John McNaughton, the director of wild things spoke to Paul and asked how I was to work with and saw some dailies because Starship hadn't been out yet. And then. then I just I read with Nev when and I got the part and I was so nervous to do not only is it's not just topless yeah you're making out yeah and back then I had a threesome with a teacher it was like so inappropriate the whole thing I feel like the movie was brilliant though and people I liked the script literally I feel like it was a brilliant movie and that just because of that shock value moment it just literally like just took over the whole movie yeah and like so I think did you feel like it got lost in translation because of that scene um not really because I think a lot of people thought from the trailer oh we get to see two girls naked with each other kissing and then um you know threesome with the champagnes there are certain things that ended up in the trailer but I think then when once people saw the movie they saw there's a story here there's some plot twists at the end and at the you know at the time you know Nev was off of uh Scream and Party of Five and Matt Dillon was something about Mary and you know these I was the unknown in the movie and um I was terrified to shoot that movie and I'm very scared can you take us to the day of filming that scene yeah well the first scene we did um I believe it was Nev and I we did that one first the first the pool scene the pool scene was the first no not the first scene sorry the first naked scene okay gotcha I gotcha I was like damn they threw you to the wolves yeah no we were we shot for three months down in South Beach um and it was great to film there and be on location I was scared again I was like the nobody and all these big actors that I was working with and I'm so intimidated um we waited to shoot those scenes because the director he wanted us to be comfortable and I'm so glad that he didn't do it right right week up like as you guys worked together and got together and got together and got together and got to know each other more and stuff like that yeah he wanted us to be a little bit more comfortable um I think yeah and so it was I felt comfortable with Nev and we just talked to each other it was actually easier to shoot with her that way than with a guy because like with a girl you can say can you we can share our insecurities or parts of our body or whatever I felt more comfortable saying do you mind like blocking this but I would feel insecure to say that I don't necessarily feel like I'm blocking this but I would feel insecure to say that I don't necessarily to a man yeah point that out especially I was so young and you know it was one of my first big jobs too so I wasn't gonna necessarily what is Denise Richards insecure about in this moment well it's no I mean I was in every I mean I everything I was so naive so young um and not and intimidated by them because they were just the big dogs yeah and Matt Dillon was fine back yeah he very his era yeah so and also it was and the content of the movie and back then it was very risque for the time and I think because they actually thought I was younger than I was they kept asking and you know you didn't have to hand over the way you do all your and I I'm like no I'm really I think I was 25 25 or 26 but I was like a young 25 26 year old you still have a young essence to you like sitting across from you now you do you're young you appear to be younger than you are so that's just a well that's my facelift it's a beautiful blessing that you got in this life sister but I was also just naive and um you know I didn't anyway there was a lot of shit that happened on that um what is your favorite scene that is in wild things that nobody ever asks you about because of the scene obviously that everybody wants to know about is there like another scene that you love um well I'll tell you the people that I I I always remember like off camera when I'm working like when even people ask me what's your favorite movie and stuff like that it's I always think of the moments that all of us actors off camera time in my life um I really enjoyed working with Kevin Bacon and Teresa Russell yeah who played my mom she was awesome and she was so good at giving me advice and then you know Bill Murray was down the hall I freaking love Bill Murray and he would run I would see him going to the gym and he'd run with his cup of coffee like a ceramic cup it wasn't like to go cup and going on the treadmill and I just thought he was so funny um he was great with me by the way it's not him that was inappropriate yeah um but uh it was I I really it was great to work with Kevin and um Teresa in particular they were very protective of me I felt and watched over me and gave me you know really good advice and I think that's um Kevin's an OG he was just in something new that we were looking through movies the other night and I was like Kevin Bacon's still acting like that's crazy I love he had his wife and his kids there and he's a family man and just very professional and very he's a class act he seems like it great and never never any weird shit has ever came out about him like he's just like a stand-up dude no he's a good person so that I I really enjoyed working with them and then but when wild things came out it was starship came out and then like and we went on a huge press tour with all of that and then four months later wild things so I was like Hovind was the first to call me and he was he was very complimentary he's like so you got naked for you wouldn't get naked for me but you got naked for this movie and I'm like well Paul it's a threesome scene you know I does warrant I guess some clothing to come off he was very like look where it got me and very he was very um he was great though yeah but that was a a very crazy time when all that hit at once that's what I was about to say like you hit like the jackpot and it just all of a sudden that's when you're just get yeah shot off into stardom yeah it's overwhelming too when I look back I think wow that was a lot and I didn't even realize it but it's like when it's like you're in fucking fight or flight you're like in survival mode when you're going through stuff like that and like your trajectory is just going up and up and up it's almost like it's so hard to live in the moment do you feel like you didn't get to live in the moment as much as you should have um no I what was weird for me was to see if I I did a lot of press and different magazine shoots and stuff and more people were saying I was a sex symbol like I didn't see that girl I saw the girl like in sweats and like yeah you know hanging out with my friends and um so that's what was surreal for me when I look back now at all of that and then after that I did drop dead gorgeous and then bond was like yes worldwide I had no idea how the magnitude of that movie yeah and so you know when they say like oh fame happens overnight it's like you work for 10 years and it takes that one job though that changes you go from no one knowing you to people knowing who you are and that part is I think what's overwhelming um as a young actress and actor when that hits did it ever get um I don't know if the word annoying is probably the perfect word to use here but did it ever get um did it ever put a bad taste in your mouth that everybody was so focused on your looks um and like a lot of pressure too what was hard was when I wanted to try and play other roles of a girl with a little bit more substance and it's like you you know I was looked at a certain way and I thought well I have issues I have shit that I'm insecure about I've had crap that's happened in life that you know just because someone looks a certain way doesn't mean that they don't have shit going on right you know so that's when it would get hard for me is when I would want to play this role and they don't see you that way I'm like why I and even though they you know my agent knew me knew me very well and you know that that was always a um you know a battle when I was trying to play other roles that were more girl next door or you know something a little different I wasn't seen that way at all especially back then like the 90s and the 2000s was like the bombshell era so they were just pushing that narrative of like you know hot beautiful women which can we bring it back? Because I kind of miss that era. I understand that we all have brains and stuff like that too, but I just feel like it was such an iconic time where there were so many beautiful women and talented women. And I don't know, it was just a really cool era. I agree with you. And going back to what you said, didn't annoy me. I didn't realize that the level of being seen that way, I didn't know until now I do looking back. Do you know what I mean? I didn't know that people knew who I was. I never thought of myself that way. And having people. Now I'm like, oh, I didn't look so bad. I wish I embraced that more. To me, that was a character. But I also, it's not. I certainly didn't help it by doing shoots where. I mean, I didn't exactly look like girl fucking next door in these shoots either. You're a hot mom. You're a hot mama. But I think I shied away from it too. I don't think I embraced my sexuality at that age. And during that time, I was very careful with interviews and being a people pleaser. I didn't want to. That was the other thing. When I did Bond, when we did this big press tour, we had to do media training. And that actually made it worse, I felt like. I felt like, oh God, I have to be with her so much. Yeah. And I felt like I couldn't be myself. You know what the silver lining with my divorce with Charlie and having so much bad shit said about me? That is what freed me to be myself. Because I was like, well, crap. If I'm being careful and people are saying this, then I'm just going to be myself. And who cares if someone doesn't like me or they say something? So that was the one good thing that came out of it. all that bad press was I got to be me and not just being careful what I say in interviews. I also feel like that's a growth because as women, I feel like when we're in our 20s and even 30s, we're like so people pleasers. We're like so unsure of ourselves. We care about what everybody thinks. And then you hit your 40s and your late 40s and your 50s and you're just kind of like, I don't give a fuck what anybody thinks about me. I'm just going to be me. And I think that that is the beauty of aging, especially in this industry, is because we develop so much wisdom and people get to see that more so with you, but they get to see the growth through all the years. I agree. I think as we get older, we care less about that. And that's what I like about my daughter, Sam. She has the confidence to just be herself. And I wish I had that back then too. Yeah, absolutely. So let's talk about Eloise a little bit. Take me on this journey with her and adopting her, bringing her into your life. How did motherhood change with you and the girls, but then also raising Eloise? So I've always wanted to adopt. And after my divorce with Charlie, I didn't want to, I didn't want to not have another, I knew, I felt like there was another soul and that, I wasn't done. And I wanted to start the adoption process on my own. And I thought, well, if another man comes into my life, I don't know how long this is going to take. Then, you know, it is what it is. And otherwise I'll do this by myself. And she was, there were quite a few different situations that it was a closed adoption. I wanted to do a closed private and she was number 13. Lucky number 13. Yeah. And, um, when she was born, she's special needs and we, I did not know, you know, and it wouldn't have changed anything. I still would have, you know, become her mom. Um, but it was really hard to diagnose her. And, uh, but when I first adopted her, the girls, the Sammy and Lola were six and seven years old when she was born. And right away they felt like I had her and they still, they say it and they just such great big sisters. They would feed her. They loved, um, from day one. It felt like she was their sister. She is their sister. And, but as Eloise wasn't meeting certain milestones, um, because I didn't give birth to her, I, you know, we first thought, okay, she's just a late developer. Um, if I had given birth, we would, okay, this isn't typically genetically with my other girls. Um, but then it was really tough trying to figure out what was going on and all these tests and, uh, went to children's hospital and finally did like a genetics test on her. It was so expensive, this test and with insurance, it was $15,000. Yeah. And then, um, then they had to test her a couple of times after they narrowed down, um, the genes that they were testing. So she was diagnosed with a chromosome disorder where she's, uh, got a deletion of chromosome eight and the genes. That were, they gave me this whole printout of all these genes that she doesn't have in chromosome eight. Um, and when the specialist told me and gave this to me, I said, well, um, can I talk to maybe some other parents? Cause she said they didn't have a lot of information, much information at all. She's like, well, she's the only one I thought, wow, at children's hospital, she's the only one. So no, she's the only one in the U S database of this particular, um, there were other children that had a chromosome disorder in eight, but not the specific genes that she had the deletion. So I was like, oh, well, fuck. What do I do? Like, you know, I like she's one of one. Yeah. And so it's been challenging, but such, um, what comes with that? Um, if it just part of my, I don't, oh yeah, no, she didn't crawl until she was a year and a half. Um, my other daughters were around six, seven months old when they started crawling. And then she didn't start walking until two and a half years old. She was almost five when she was completely out of diapers. And it was terrible. Like in the beginning, before I was public about what was going on with her, people would make comments. Oh, she's still carrying her daughter in the parking lot at the grocery store. And I'm like, if I put her down, she will bolt. It was just, she just didn't know that there's a car right there. And, and so there's a lot of development delays with her. with her muscle tone, with that stuff. And then also she's primarily nonverbal. She can only say like a handful of words. She can't do a sentence. And when she says words, except for no, she says that clear. She can say ma, not mom. And the other word she says is like a whisper. And so she has had speech therapy. It doesn't, you know, as a matter of fact, it kind of shut her down. I have a private teacher with her that works with her. And it's kind of like she's, at times it feels that she's 15 now. And I still have to help her with getting dressed, like putting her shoes on two different feet, putting her clothes on backwards. So I still have to help her. And she'll need care. The rest of her life. Like she's never, she wants to, you know, she points at blue cars. Blue is her favorite color. And it's sad because she's never going to be able to drive, you know, because one minute she seems like she's her age. And then, and then she's like a toddler, you know, but she's so aware and she's very caring and compassionate. She loves animals. For instance, we were, Sammy went out of town and I had to feed her cats. And I told Eloise, now you got to feed her cats. And she said, you got to remind mommy to feed her because I wanted, she likes having a job. And so she has a cell phone and I FaceTime her. I can't call her without, I have to see her face. So she gives me a thumbs up, thumbs down. I understand her. We tried sign language. She has her own. We tried the ASL. It did not work for us. And, but, you know, she had in her phone, an emoji cat next to Sammy's name. And she pointed and I'm like, oh good. We have to go feed her cat. So she understands so much. And I also feel she sees spirits because I'll see her mouthing to someone or dancing. Patrick Muldoon, my friend that passed, she had such a deep connection with him. And she even felt, oh God, I'm going to start crying that, you know, he came to her and she could see him and stuff. So, you know, she has this gift. I feel that's on another level, but she, you know, she's never going to be a normal kid. And, you know, she's never going to be a normal kid. And, you know, I worry like as she gets older, you know, and when I'm gone, you know, so I wish that, but we don't know what she'll, you know, this is kind of where she's at and it doesn't improve. Right. What do you think the biggest lesson is that she's taught you in this life? Um, the simple things, like the simplest things make her so happy. You know, when the girls fight, about stuff, she goes like this, like they're crazy. And she, I love how aware she is almost. She's so aware, like on another level, not to sound wooey, but you know what I mean? Like I feel that I 100% believe that. Yeah. And I, I've asked her and she, she will, if she doesn't know something or do something, she's, she's fine saying no. And I asked her, I'm like, do you see spirits or can feel spirits? And she has nodded that she does. But, um, you know, what the girls and I tell them, like, look at Ella. She's so happy just to, like her Barbies, the one dog always chews them up and the arm will be off and she loves her. My older girls would be like, I want a new Barbie, you know, that kind of thing. And she embraces the disabilities of these dolls from the dog. Yeah. And she's just simple and just takes in all her surroundings. And that's like, stop and smell the roses is what she's taught me. And I think the older girls too. Again, it's a testament of who you are, you know, you're taking in these babies. You, um, adopted a special needs daughter. Like you just have so much love that you pour into people. And, um, I, I just hope that one day you find your person that will be pouring love into you or, you know what, at this point, I'm not even going to say that to people anymore. Cause I'm going through it too. I feel like we we're here to pour love into ourselves. I agree that I will do. Um, I won't get married again. No, never, never, never, ever, ever, which we're about to start talking about that in a second, but let's talk about your stint on housewives. How was that? Because I, I remember following it a little bit, but then it got a little crazy and I just almost felt so bad for you. I was like, I can't watch this. Yeah, no, it was, um, was you and Brandy, right? Brandy. Yeah. I think so in the beginning when I did it, I was again, naive to it because I just wanted to be myself on the show. Uh, because a lot of people know me as an actress, they've seen me do interviews and I feel I'm like, I'm not going to create a character. Right. I'm not going to create a character. Yeah. Um, I feel that people would see through that and they do. And the cameras, cameras pick up the fakeness. Do you feel like the housewives are real? Like the ones that are on there? Or do you feel like some of them, I feel that for the most part, I feel those some are, um, different on camera and off camera. And so that's confusing. Actually, when I met with the producers, I wore Guns N' Roses t-shirt and jeans. I did my own hair makeup. And I told them, I said, they said I was the first, probably the only still, gone and looking like that. I said, you guys can see on the red carpet, you can pull up a picture of me all glammed. This is how I really dress in real life, unless I have somewhere that I have to get dressed up for. And I asked them, I said, if you want me to do that, I can do that because I still am acting. I'm still going to events. And so that part I felt was still authentic and truthful, that part of me. But at home, if you want this, and they wanted me, they're like, no, stay who you are. So I think at first the housewives were shocked by that. Which is crazy. That's what shocked them. Well, I'm also the stupid idiot because when we went to the Bahamas, which was a weekend of me literally, I packed like, I think the night before or morning of, and I was just, meanwhile, I didn't know they were all like planning their outfits for probably two fucking months. And I was like, okay, we're going to the Bahamas. And I didn't organize all my damn outfits. I just wore what I would go if I was with a bunch of girlfriends. But that makes you real. I love that about you. I thought I was such a dumb fuck. I swear to God. Oh man. I was just, anyway, I was myself. So then the second season, I was so hurt by Lisa Rinna because I knew her for 20 years and I was shocked. And I didn't even know where it was coming from. And I didn't even watch a few of the episodes because it was so out of nowhere. And I had done a movie with Patrick Muldoon again. He's like a friend of forever. We were more than even brother and sister. His family is my family and he's just, I've known him. We've known each other before anyone else knew who we were. And I was 18 years old when I met him. And so we were doing a movie together and she heard that he was in it and she had a huge crush on him. And she's like, if I can interview you for my podcast, can I interview him? I've had such a crush on him. And I said, yeah, I'm sure he'll do it. And I didn't know her well at all. I had met her through an agent, briefly. And then I filmed one thing with her and then that was it. And so we did the podcast and I did my interview with her and then she did with Pat, but I'm like, you got to tone it down. And so Brandy was doing a podcast at the time. And so then I did an interview and then she interviewed Pat and I wasn't there for the interview. And then it was like a year and a half later, this was brought up on the show. But I remember. I remember Teddy saying something to me. Oh, she said, you guys had sex. I thought she was talking about me and Pat because she would say to me, I know you're sleeping with him. I'm like, I'm not sleeping with him. We've been broken up for years. I said, he's my best friend. And Aaron's got to be pissed off and whatever. And I said, he's not. He knows my relationship, but actually was a deal breaker. If you don't embrace him and forget it. So I thought she was talking about him when they. And then I was like, oh my God, for fuck's sake, really? I feel like Brandy, and I'm going to be very choosy with my words here. I feel like Brandy leans into the villain character a lot. And sometimes it might become her reality. And that's why she drives it home so hard. I felt actually bad for her because no one was talking to her. And I'm like, the one person that was nice to you, you fucking do that too. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so, yeah, no, it was really weird and out of nowhere. And when I say the bravo, bravo, fucking bravo, it had nothing to do with that. It was something else where they were also for every time I'd go to dinner, they'd bring up some bullshit about threesomes or this or that. And I'm like, they thought I was mad at them. And I'm like, I'm not mad. Can we move on from it? It was like, I don't know why they were wanting to make such an issue. I just made one comment at a dinner we had. I was like, I don't know why they were wanting to make such an issue. I just didn't want them to talk about that with the kids right there. Yes, do I do stuff and then later it's on film? I'm like, yeah, I hope my kids don't see it. But if they do, they do. But while they're sitting right there, I don't want to talk about stuff, you know? But yeah, no, it was a really weird thing. Could have been jealousy too, you know, because you were the new girl. And it's like, I almost feel like it's almost like a hazing that they put people through. I just thought, I thought, you know, this probably isn't going to land well, you know? Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. And then I'm like, also, I'm, I'm open about a lot of shit. Yeah. It would have been easier to say, yeah, and, you know, like, should I have lied and said certain things or whatever? But it was just such a weird thing. I was but I was more. So more than anything, I was so hurt by Lisa Renner. That was what happened with Lisa. Well, she's the one that was I believe she just was pushing that and this and she knows me. And so you guys were like, homies? Like, yeah, like off camera. Okay, I knew it for 20 years. So do you guys still not anymore? No, no, no. So that ruined you guys's friendship? Oh, I hate that. Yeah, it was. It was, you know, I, we've talked a couple times since but I mean, if she reached out and apologize and like genuinely meant it, would you guys rekindle? Because a 20 year friendship? Yeah, well, I think you find out about people. I always say you find out about people when you work with them, live with them or travel with them. I had never worked with her until the show. So I found out I don't really want to be friends with that person so much. But that's okay. She doesn't want to be friends with me either. So that's fine. But it is what it is. And I don't. In hindsight, I probably should have stayed on the show. Also, though, I think things are going really bad with my marriage too. Right. And I didn't. Yeah. And so I was also concerned about certain things. And COVID happens. It was like a combination of stuff. In hindsight, I probably should have stayed on. And but I was like, everyone hated me. And it didn't seem I didn't want it to not feel genuine either. Like we're supposed to be friends on this show. And I was friends with some. No, I'm not. And then Garcelle, thank God I was friends with her. But it was a it was also a weird time to what's going on with COVID. Yeah. And not knowing if we're filming and then everyone hated me. And then things weren't so great with the person I was with. So it was a combination of things. Okay. So moving on from the housewife stuff, I did hear you say in the middle of that, that you were going through some stuff behind the scenes with the person that you were married to. Yeah. We won't name his name. We're not going to say no names today. Just to pick people. No, with Aaron, who the person I'm divorcing. Yes, there was some stuff that I was dealing with, but I didn't know I was really dealing with. And I didn't know I was really dealing with it. Back then, if that makes sense, I just knew stuff wasn't right. And when you say that, can we have some examples of like, well, I feel I mean, obviously, I was in an abusive marriage. It didn't start out that way, though, physically, physically. And, and emotionally, financially, all of it. He was a completely different person than the person I married. And do you feel like you were conned? Absolutely. Definitely. Yeah, that's the hardest part of it is that, you know, we were together, just over eight years married, little over six. And it's I never thought I would have been in this situation ever. I and now I get it like when, you know, it's easy to say, why wouldn't someone leave or, you should have known you should have seen these things. And a lot of people ask me that. And it's I didn't, I wouldn't have married the person, you know. So I, I've learned so much of who he is, during the separation. We split a year ago, Fourth of July weekend, we're still not divorced. What was the Okay, so let's bring it back to the beginning. So where did you guys meet? And how did how did he come into your life? So that people who don't know the whole story can kind of get a picture and then we can paint the entire situation that's happening for everybody. Aaron had a business of what I would call kind of like a wellness, healing place. It was a lot of stuff that people are just now I think, seeing on, you know, Instagram and stuff like that, like the biohacking and I feel like those are the most toxic men that the ones that push the healing and wellness. Yeah. It seems to be a trend. He so I, a friend, a mutual friend wanted to set me up with him. And I had met him in passing. And I'm like, he's not my type. And no, not really interested. And then I started after my mom passed away. She had renal cell carcinoma, which is kidney cancer. And seeing what she went through, I really wanted to learn more about like preventative and health and wellness and all of that. And so And I wanted to, so I went to Aaron. He had a, like a place where I became a client and I was the perfect, like, woman prey for him because, you know, I had had my divorce with Charlie. I'm a single mom. I have my youngest daughter. I just found out her diagnosis and I felt like, oh, I've been single for quite a few years and I was ready to, like, you know, meet someone. He was the last person I ever thought. And it's so true. Like when they say, oh, when you least expect it. I've never had a situation like this either, where I was became friendly and then turned into a relationship. It was always that instant chemistry and all of that. And so I got to know him over four months while I was a client. And we knew some mutual people and then, you know, started to date and he just seemed like a really good man, that he was very low key, didn't come from money, always. This was also probably a big fucking red flag to saying, I don't care about your career that way or, you know, how much money I'm very low maintenance. And his actions even showed that, too. And, you know, he seemed like a manly man, like he could help me with stuff, but in a in a nice in a relationship way, not where, you know, it's hard to explain. It just seemed like a good, a good man to like a guy's guy, a good man and just very seemed very nurturing. And, you know, we had we were together, I would I think around almost two years before we got married. And and no signs of anything that would be a red flag for me. And then I was after we got married, still good. And looking back, like really trying to see where I was trying to really see where when did this really start? And he's Canadian and he has a green card because being married to me. And I I when I think about it, it's like that's really after. We got the green card was kind of when things started to shift. Wow. And then how so? Verbally abusive. And it was a slow burn. This wasn't overnight. It was like slowly chipping away, putting doubts in my head about certain things. And then I'll never forget the one time when he first hit me. I was so shocked. I was. Like, oh, fuck, there's no going back from this. My dad always taught my sister and I always said, if a man hits you once, he'll hit you again. And I told him, I said, I, I don't know, I don't know how to what to do. He hit you on your face, hit my face. Oh, my God. Yeah. Slapped me across the face. Wow. Yeah. And it was shocking and startling. And I had a like, he got so angry and just hit me. And so. He was crying. And please forgive me. I don't know what happened. It'll never happen again. And it's the typical thing that you hear from women who come out of relationships like this. And I never thought in a million years it would be me. And that's the thing that I think is hard. Don't be hard on yourself, though, because it's those types of relationships are normally like very passionate. And that's what we get addicted to is the because I was in a severely abusive relationship also. And one of the things that I've noticed is that I've been in a lot of relationships where I'm like, I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. Don't be hard on yourself though, because it's, um, those types of relationships are normally like I don't know what to do. very passionate and that's what we get addicted to is the, cause I was in a severely abusive relationship also. And what women get addicted to and those is the push and pull of the abuse. You see who they were that you fell in love with and that they're so remorseful. He was so remorseful and to the where I felt bad for him. Right. You're like, it's not that bad. I played it down. After I got through the initial, I don't know what to do. My dad has always, I've always, my dad's always said this and I can't, I cannot be in an abusive relationship. I didn't know even the mental part of it at that point. But looking back, it was happening. I just wasn't aware of it at that time. He knew little things to say to me, to put doubts in my head, to make me feel insecure. Like about yourself? Everything. Yeah. Like choices I was making, things that I was doing. I was also in between like business managers, a lot of, I don't know if you've had this experience and if you haven't, thank God you haven't. But some of us in entertainment have had situations with business managers who have done certain things and that you're not, you know, not the greatest. And so I was in between some things and I was also working a lot and he was like, I'll help you. I'll take care of, I'll help you with your finances. That was the biggest mistake i made and so i i stupidly put him on as a signee on my one account and oh that was really bad but but going back you know i thought okay he's really he had my best interest he made me believe he was taking care of me and you know was kind of build a life with me that's what abusers do yeah i really felt like we were building a life together and was so close to Eloise. Sammy, I think she, well, she knew from, she did not like him from day one. Lola, she was sweet and she liked him. She liked him for me. She believed him too, I believe. Yeah. Until the end. I love that Sammy saw through him though. She saw through him. Yeah. But I'm like, you don't like anyone right now, Sammy. You're 13. That's the one you keep close to. No, it's true. The one that doesn't like anybody, keep close to you. It is true. And She's the one I had to lie the most to with him, with everything. And it was just, you know, it's hard. It was slow, but it was a chip away at me to where I felt like a piece of shit. And then. He's breaking you down. Yeah. Abusers love to break down strong women. Yeah. No, and I was broken. And he then he would slowly the physical started more and more. Then he moved his family down from Canada and told me they were just staying for a while. And that, I said, it was his mom, dad, brother. Then it turned into another brother and a sister-in-law that neither one of us had married. Five people. This was during COVID. It was 2021. Like, towards the end of it, they made up some bullshit excuse, came down, two Great Danes, two pit bulls, two cats, and five people. What? Yeah. In your house? In my house. a house that, by the way, I was leasing with Aaron. I had sold my house in Hidden Hills. And then thank God I did not buy a house with him. Right. So we were leasing this. We leased it. And so I didn't own it. We didn't own it. So I'm very respectful of, you know, that was five years ago. The brother with the wife left after four months and then the others are still here five years later. Wow. It was after they moved down, I feel, is when he really shifted right I was seeing a man that I didn't even know and I kept and then it would be like parts of that with the abuse and then he would back off and apologize I'm so sorry I just I'm feel pressure my family that this and um he told me all these business deals that he was um putting together and then the borrowing the money started with me and pulling money out when as soon as I would fly somewhere to work he would take money out of my accounts that I didn't know and it was it was and i take responsibility that i wasn't watching that stuff but at the same time i loved him and i trusted him and i felt like he had my best interest and that we were building life together i co-signed stupidly but right before we got married his lease on his place in malibu where he moved to center and because he wasn't uh he didn't have his green card at that point um and that wasn't smart um he ended up I ended up having to pick up all the rent on that it was just terrible it went from bad to worse but then the physical started so much um and it was when that was it was stuff that I could hide you know like on my arms or something and then he gave me a black eye and that was where I was like oh oh fuck how am I gonna what am I gonna do now what wanted to tell people it was awful it was awful and it was something his cousin was there she worked for him she was right there and saw it happen he started to um he had these plants uh by a woman that gave uh she gave to him and i later learned some things about that woman so he was having an affair yeah oh my gosh and uh i didn't know at the time but he made up some bullshit thing that's saying there was like listening devices in these things and he got crazy like he would show me put a device up to it and it would i'm like all right let's just put them outside does he use drugs or was it a peptide he was taking or no i think um i i mean i learned that part after um he just was i think i was seeing the real person wow you know and um do He started to fight or argue and stuff. And then a cop showed up at his place and he went into the kitchen of his place. And then his cousin and I had to answer the door. And the cop said someone heard some arguing or screaming or something and played it down. I was like, oh my God, I think I thought, is my eye okay I was so scared yeah so scared so you know it's when people ask me to like the other times it happened and then it was just all the time you know doing stuff but they asked me how come you never called the police I'm like I didn't call the police and they showed up and that's what happened to me so he had always told me you know I would well they control the it's not easy when you're in an abusive relationship I people are always like why didn't you leave it takes a woman they say seven times of leaving before they can actually really leave their abuser um it's it's not easy for a woman especially if they have money especially it doesn't matter it doesn't matter what walk of life you're in if you're in an abusive relationship you will never know what it's like unless you're in that and to ask somebody well why didn't you leave I feel like that is just kind of like I I know yeah it's I don't I I know I feel you're in an abusive relationship you're in an abusive relationship you're in an abusive relationship and and this is the opposite like I'm the one that made the money right and I was scared to leave because also he had his family here and um you know and I'm afraid of them too I actually moved out of the house that that we were leasing and everything and but it was for towards the very end it became where it was my normal like as far as if a couple gets into a disagreement like okay do you guys yell or does one walk away or whatever our normal became where I would be hit or pushed down on the ground or some threat of something and that became almost my normal and I and I I knew it was wrong but I was so beaten down and that I I didn't know how to leave yeah I really did not know how to leave you're almost not in your right mind in those situations it's a chemical survival you know because he's such a big guy I've never laid a hand on him oh my god I would not be here right now yeah you're tiny I couldn't even imagine you laying a hand on anyone yeah he's a big guy and very um intimidating and you know he had he has guns and stuff and would threaten me with that too and so I was fucking scared um to to leave and um so he ended up filing though he filed um did he file because you moved out of the house or no he moved in I rented like ended up being three townhouses all together I first moved out with my daughters and he because I it got so bad his family knew what he was doing to me too and nobody stopped it they didn't stop it that's learned behavior too probably totally completely yeah it is and so I moved in with the girl I moved the girls and I had so much like all this usually would happen at his office um or uh when we would travel and that would be it got back where I'm like I can't have you with me you know um and for someone who accused me of cheating it was him and which is whatever but um you know so then I so I stayed in a townhouse with the girls and then I rented another one that I could use as like my office when I was like trying like what are we going to do about this house I packed up all my stuff and needed but I didn't want to just they were destroying it and whatever and so I kept hearing they're leaving next month next month next month well they still have to leave next month next month next month and I'm like I'm gonna leave next month they're still here and I was having to pay the rent there plus his office plus the townhouses plus everyone's pay it was just out of control and so um you know so I hid that and so um I had my breasts I had to have them redone and I had surgery and then like three weeks later I had my facelift after I had the surgery on my breasts he uh that night he was taking care of me at the time and I was I had a seven and a half hour surgery because it was a rupture it was a whole thing and he ended up hitting me while I'm on the toilet and it got to the point though where he would and I'm like crying and I'm like I just got out of surgery I was like this it was awful and he's a disgusting human when that's when that moment like I knew for I was trying to convince myself once his family leaves he'll be back too because I felt like they were but they had never he had no intentions of them ever leaving I thought he did and but when he did that to me being that vulnerable that's I knew this is he's gonna kill me yeah you know and so he hates you and he hates himself and when men are like that there's no there's no I call it shark eyes when they get like that it's almost like their eyes go black they did and they're yeah and they become like a different human and that's the scariest thing that you can ever experience as a woman is to have zero emotion or soul behind his eyes and them putting their hands on you you just do that to you after surgery after surgery like it's terrible that he was doing it to you anyways but especially after surgery too oh it's so vulnerable yeah like that's insane it was insane and that's again people are like why didn't you call and do what I'm sitting there like I can't even pick a phone up I couldn't even go to the bathroom by myself and then I had my facelift three weeks later and I told him I'm it was so bad I'm like we've got a I can't do this anymore um he had found text messages and like a few months prior of me and a guy that I did a show with and I had never seen this guy again and they were inappropriate texts that I sent and I own that I never saw him though in person and I he even saw the text of me saying I can't cross this line and see you I know obviously things are not good in my marriage and Aaron saw those or the person I'm divorcing and asked me and he said did I lose you do you want um I I and I I said I cannot stay married like this this is I can't do it I didn't want to get divorced and go through what I'm going through right now well I mean you also went through one of the most public freaking yeah divorces so you probably were scared to death what was going to happen when the news hit although I did not think this would go down the way it did but I I said this is what needs to happen for us to stay married you need to go to anger management you need to stop all your substance abuse and you need to get your family out of here because I cannot support everyone this is insane so when did you find out about the substance abuse um well I found out found out shit after we split oh my gosh yeah you would have thought I would have known more but um there are some other things that I had known ish uh but I'm like whatever you're doing you need to stop yeah you know um but then he got worse after that and that's when and then I had my surgeries and then I told him I said I I think I need to reschedule my facelift like I was like I I've never this is a major thing I cannot have anything and he said no matter what happens with us I promise you I'm going to take care of you and work get you through this and it was horrendous thank god Dr. Ben had me go to a place because at least I had nurses and yeah and I stayed there for a week and he was trying to put on you know his whatever and I get home and then it was 10 days later 4th of July weekend he was just so volatile and he even had his dad come over who had never been there showed pictures of me with this guy and I text messages that you keep bringing up the same ones like and you're showing your dad and they were threatening me and it was just trying to create a narrative he's trying to create for months he was I didn't even know it but yeah but meanwhile he's having an affair yeah with the plant people oh and then um and then he was it's always it's always it's okay when they do it but when we if you do it it's a whole thing and I and I didn't but you didn't even do anything yeah I mean the I should not have texted another man and I I knew that our marriage was over just the fact I even did that because I've never cheated I've never I'm very loyal and you know I I couldn't and um but I knew it was over when I did that but I was trying to convince myself things will change well he was trying to convince me and they just didn't it went from bad to worse but um and that weekend while I'm 10 days after my facelift fourth fourth of July weekend I told his mom my text I'm like you've got to get your husband and your son out of here I cannot do this if not I'm going to file a restraining order this is so abusive I am trying to heal from two surgeries so eventually they left and then bad weekend and then Aaron um the person I'm and doesn't tell me and has texted me like on a Monday like nothing and I couldn't even I didn't even want to see him or anything and my daughter Sammy called me and she's like are you okay because I stayed the night at her house on a Saturday night because I just was so scared to stay there um I was afraid he was going to do something and so I stayed at her place and even at that I still didn't tell her everything um but she's like well that motherfucker filed for divorce I was like what oh why like the worst thing you could have done while I'm healing from a facelift because they just always wanted so vulnerable yeah and I talked to him uh I uh he called actually and I said you filed for divorce well yeah you told my mom you were gonna file I said I didn't mean Monday yeah I said I didn't say I was gonna file said we have to get divorced this is just crazy with your family and the abuse and everything else I can't do this and because she's trying to beat you to the - Yeah, and I said, "You don't realize the surprise circus you just created and now with a facelift with my head fucking wrapped I have to go find an attorney and deal with this and he said uh he was you don't need an attorney I'm like you want over 100 grand a fucking month what do you mean I don't need an attorney is that what he filed in the divorce papers wow mr oh I don't want your money yeah I said you could go fuck yourself and that was the last time I spoke to him and then he same thing please take me back texting everything I never talked to him again to this day but you don't need to talk to him no he doesn't deserve any no it's actually I'm terrified of him and then I and I was so scared to file the restraining order shit balls I was terrified because I I just he's dangerous and he doesn't have anything to lose you know and same with his family I was so scared does he still reach out to you and try to you know he can't um a but it's been hell I'll tell you that and but the worst part is the betrayal of for him like right away you know sell pictures of me to Daily Mail and put all these stories out there all these lies about me and trying to destroy me you know even when I filed the restraining order I just wanted to protect my safety I didn't put shit in there about on that just to be mean right um and that's the thing that was while I was at my most vulnerable to try to ruin me right just to after everything I've worked for my whole life to you know just be so brutal and everything that I've discovered just in the last year like people come out of the woodwork oh his friends these people telling me I was like how could I have been so naive and you know finding out that I was paying the salary of at least one that I know in particular and the other one I uh was earlier but an employee that he was having an affair with and her severance and all this stuff it's just oh my gosh and he right away moved in with a woman um as soon as we separated had her testify against me she didn't know me didn't see anything about me and it was just it was brutal it's been brutal I can't he won't sign divorce papers he's trying to come after me for spousal and and I get it I know that we're normal marriages whoever makes more money you know that's you pay that is what it is and you guys didn't sign a prenup no that was that was um mistake number 50 I made this girl you're just a lover girl you're just a girl it's okay I'm so stupid you know well it ain't happening again yeah no I was a dumb I didn't do a prenup but I do want to say that I am so proud of you for speaking up because if anybody looks at your track record you have not spoke up ever so for you to finally speak up and say your truth is amazing and I'm so proud of you thank you because like I said your track record shows that you literally have eaten and protected everybody and now you're finally saying no I'm choosing me I'm gonna tell the truth about this man so he can't hurt another woman the way that he hurt me and also your for yourself just to even be able to get that off your chest and be able to say look this is my truth take it or leave it is it just speaks volume so I am proud of you thank you I I also want to you know because this has been going on for a year and I feel it's been hell like every turn I discover something new or something else is filed and you know we have no custody to deal with we don't have a home to sell he's taken everything he's not gonna let you go and he's not gonna he won't let it go and so and that's the part that's brutal but I also you know I want to if I could even help one woman in my situation yes if it could happen to me who I'm the one that was the breadwinner I'm you know and it's a slow burn it was a slow burn and it's terrifying um you know this happened so much and many women don't make it out alive and and I think if I wasn't in the public I I wouldn't be here right now or if I did call the police on him I would not be here um I really believe that and but to be put through hell with this you know I had to go through a five-day trial to get I have a permanent restraining order so after you file it then you have a trial and see if you want to extend it and I got the most you can get and it's not just because it's not because who I am I had to go through this trial and he kept doing interviews and putting lies out there hoping I would break and I almost did to pull it because I didn't know I would have to it would be public where the media could be in there and I would have to sit there and it was the hardest thing I think I've ever had to do but I did it and it was over a few months it would be like three days then I'd wait have to wait a month and go again again it was so devastating to also testify against this person who I had thought I was building life with who I loved and in a second he showed no remorse no love at all like to turn on me the way he did publicly and do all that about me it was such a that was more devastating the betrayal that he had towards me than any than hitting me it was the that was the worst and you know early on I also tried to have you know private judge a lot of celebrities have private judges just to keep things private it's not necessarily you're hiding anything but who the hell wants saving yourself yeah and also I'm a single mom and I don't want I've my youngest daughter and it's like I'm I need to protect myself too and um and so he would not have a private judge in the beginning he said that I would have to sign a one-sided NDA and have to pay him 250 000 per breach and so I was like all right and I was actually at the time he didn't know his cousin was testifying against him and I was trying to also protect that side of things I didn't want to destroy the person but I wanted to protect myself and so he he wanted it public he wanted it well it was an opportunity for him too to talk to the media the way he did after each time he would go in there and but it was hard it's hard it's still hard he won't stop and then we had to go to court for spousal and I was quite shocked that the um this is a different judge that she awarded him temporary spousal and legal bills I was he has felony charges against him for domestic violence regarding me and a permanent restraining order and I was so surprised by and shocked actually that I would have to pay him after all of this and that um you know because I think it sets a bad precedent for other victims afraid to leave because what if they can't afford it and then this case could be an example for other cases coming well she had to pay you know and I I was really you know I respect the court but I was very disappointed in the decision that I went five days with this trial all this stuff and then in you know a very short time I don't even think it was an hour to make that decision and now what I've been going through with it and I understand like if it was other circumstances I would have to say okay that's the law I have to do this and pay spousal I get it but under these circumstances I don't understand and what I'm being put through to have to defend myself is been brutal because we're not done she won't stop my heart breaks for you it's like how did how are you supposed to love after this or try to even look for love after this you know it's like I don't know this one's a doozy I'll tell you because I like I said I've always said never say never I will never get married again ever I can't do the divorce the divorce sucks yeah I can't do it I will never it'll kill me I think I just can't I can't um I would have a partner yeah and you know it's I think like Kurt Russell my sister said that today yeah yeah I think I would do that um but you know I haven't been with anyone I haven't dated and it's been a year which is a long time like I envy you I wish I could be more like you I mean I haven't been with anyone yeah this has hurt me so much that and because I really loved him I thought I was building a life with him and it's just you know I have to heal just I feel like I can compartmentalize and I am not one that's woe is me wallow but with this I discovered things um in the year that's almost been worse than during the marriage well the betrayal the betrayal is when I when I had gone through a situation with an affair I think uh it's not the act that hurts you it's the lies it's the lies and you are just it's like whiplash and the people who are involved in it and the people you know like you feel so it's slimy it's very slim and there's no way to feel good about that betrayal trauma is literally like it rewires your brain to not trust people to just feel disgusting because you're the last to know and it's like nobody wants to ever be the last to know and when you are it's just it's a different kind of hurt and also I think this was he didn't love me there's no way and so it feels like this was all we used to ask I feel conned a hundred percent and how I could have not seen it is what's hard but my closest friends and people in my life are like he had us fooled too but that's the part that's the hardest actually of anything everything is at my daughter Eloise because she loved him and for him to completely disappear from her life the way he has in the beginning I would have, you know, set up visitation through my dad or something, but he just did not care about her. And that's what's the most hurtful thing. He says stuff publicly. The only time he mentions her is publicly to try to get sympathy. He never tried to adopt her. Once I think he knew I would marry him without a prenup, that was like off the table. And, you know, his family started a GoFundMe page to try to get money from the public. And, say, our poor granddaughter, no one has even tried to see her. And that is what, more than anything, is so hurtful that he completely, completely disappeared from her life. It's like a whole family of scam artists. Yeah. No, they are. Exactly. I mean, it's so deep and there's so much there and so much shit that it's like it's a lot. But it's a – Well, you didn't deserve any of it. Thank you. You didn't. Because you went into it with a genuine heart. And good intentions. And, like, you just wanted to be loved. And, you know, this guy took full advantage of a woman who's been through some shit and has a tattered heart. And, you know, maybe in the beginning he did love you. I don't know him. But then, like, you know, people change as years go on. And it's just – it's disgusting. I think I was – he didn't love me. He really, you know, set out to prey on – he knew what he was doing. That's so disgusting. Especially, you know, finding so much stuff out. And it is what it is. But it's – I just want it over, you know. Yeah. How does it end? How can we get it to end? I don't fucking know. I know we have some court dates coming up. I don't know. It's like – He's just going to keep – it's like you're going to pay so much money in fucking lawyer's fees more than what you're going to – he's going to end up getting in the end. You know, it's like just fucking – I don't understand. Because he was ordered also to return a laptop of mine that he took. And I don't – it's not the laptop so much. It's the information that's on there. Ordered to return my late mom's things. Refuses. I don't know. And that's like, oh, come on. You won't even give me my mom's things? Yeah. Like, that's disgusting. It's disgusting. That's so gross. And so I just have to hopefully, you know, whenever it'll be over soon. But going through it, though, I'm like, okay, there's obviously a reason, even though it's so painful. I always say there's a blessing and a lesson. Right. So I'm trying to find that. But I – so that's where I think, okay, if I can – I want to be able to do what I can to help other victims. And then also – And also, you know, there's some holds in our system, too, that I think need to be fixed as well. Not that I have the power to do that, but at least, you know, try to start raising awareness about it. Exactly. I was going to say people can use your case as an example, you know. And that's the first step towards change and being able to change things is people seeing it actually play out in real life. And then being able to be like, oh, you know what? That's not right. We need to look into this and fix it. And there's so many things. I mean, you know, with your divorce, too. That people have an opinion or they think – They know everything. Yeah. Or he's put stuff out there and, you know. There's nobody – the only people who know what's going on inside of a divorce or a relationship, no matter how public they are, is the two people that are in it. All these other narratives that are created are not real and people need to stop believing headlines. It's just not what it is, you know. And I think people have been conditioned so much to, like, read the newspaper and, you know, what's going on. But nowadays, these headlines. These headlines come from, like, TikTok or, like, you know, like, it's not the journalism that it used to be. Right. And I think people need to know that there's two people that are involved in this situation and that there's always two sides to every story. I was really genuinely so touched that how much support I do have because I was scared to file that, the restraining order, and then go through the trial and then have him put stuff out there. And it is – it's nice. I'm so grateful for fans and people that have really been really, truly, genuinely supportive, and I'm so thankful. Well, your track record shows the woman that you are, and I think people know that you're not just going to file a restraining order on somebody unless there's a reason. And, you know, I'm thankful that people were able to see past all the bullshit and the lies that he was putting out and actually see you for the person you are. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Where are we going on vacation, Denise? X, Y, S Club. That's the other thing. Yeah, we need to go somewhere. Where are we going? We both need a break. Let's do it. Yeah, because you're single now, too. I am, baby. Ready to mingle. So we need to do a single girl's trip. Let's do it. I'm so down. We'll have so much fun. That would be fun. And all I want to do is travel. That's all I want to do. I love traveling. And now that I'm here in L.A., we've got to go out to dinner and hang out and stuff like that, too. I know. Me, too. It's been a long time coming. I've been trying to get to L.A. for a while, and so now it's finally happening, and we close on our house next week. Congratulations. Yeah, I'm just excited. So we'll be here. But do you think that you have forgiven everyone besides the person that you were married to? Do you think that you've forgiven everyone in your life that has caused you any sort of hurt and pain? And where does Denise go from here? Yeah, I mean, I feel, too, like in relationships, even with Charlie, I feel that was our journey. I am so grateful. I am so grateful for him because I wouldn't have our daughters, you know? So I don't think of – it is what it is. And I'm so grateful that we're able to be in a place that we're in. And, of course, I forgive the hurt there. Well, even with the media and stuff like that, you know? I mean, like, they were not kind to you, and that's got – you know, that was a big part of your life. And, I mean, look how traumatized you were to even file for divorce this time, even though you were in the most abusive relationship ever. And he actually filed. Right. I wanted to. I wanted to work things out on the side, but then when I had to do the restraining order, there was no doing that nicely. So, you know, it's really hard. I am a very forgiving person, and that person I would – I'm friends with all my exes, too. That will never, ever, ever happen. But I'm not – you know, I do want to find love again. I want to meet someone. I want to have fun. So I don't feel bitter at all. Yeah. But I'm just going to be a little cautious about who I meet. And, you know, I think this was an extreme case that I was in. Yeah. But – and obviously, I had to go through it for whatever reason, you know, as painful as it is. But I think I just have to keep – the glass is always half full and stay that way and not become bitter or, you know, change who I am in a negative way. And so I feel like I'm back to myself before I married him, but only – wiser and, you know, but I like to have fun and I want to, I would like to have like a girl's vacation. Let's do it. I love that you said that you're friends with all of your exes because that's such an Aquarius trait. I'm an Aquarius myself. You're Aquarius? Yeah, I'm January 22nd. That's February 17th. Yeah. So when you said that, I was like, you know what? That has to be an Aquarius thing because I'm friends with all of my exes too, except for the one of them that was abusive. And it's like, it's impossible to be friends with him because he just can't be normal. Yeah, exactly. That's so funny. I did not know you're Aquarius. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So you have your head in the clouds too. Listen, I'm a lover girl at heart too, baby. So I get it. I understand you so much. You do. Denise, thank you so much for coming here today. And I hope this is not the last of our conversations. It's not. We're going to go on vacation. I'm going to hold you to it. I will go. All right. We're putting that on the calendar, guys. We're going on vacation. We have to think somewhere fun where we can go. Thank you, Denise. This interview I have been wanting to do with you for so long, and I just got to sit across the table with you. And I just got to sit across the table with you. And I just got to sit across from you and feel your energy. And you're just the most beautiful human. And please do not. I know you won't because life has not torn you down. But please don't let anything tear you down because you're just such a beautiful soul. Thank you. I appreciate you. Next time I'm going to interview you. Yeah, let's do it. I'll be your first guest on podcast. Do it. I'll do it. Thank you guys for tuning in to another episode of Dumb Blonde. I'll see you guys next week. Bye. Ow!