The Integration Era with Madeleine Gottlieb

[Music] So I'm recording this intro in my little hidden patch of grass, strolling around because as I talk about in this pod, that is something I have learned is a part of my process. We are constantly learning how to live and how to create in a way that feels like us and it is an ongoing journey and whenever I speak to Mads I feel like we are kind of figuring that out together in real time and this chat is no different. It's been a year since Mads came on the pod. Last time we spoke on air we were both in what Mads calls a state of deep psychological interrogation. We were both at a point in our life where we were asking really big questions about who we are and how we want to live and how to find the courage to step out as the people we've become. Today a year on Mads is in her integration era. She's taking all the things she's learned and weaving them into her life, her work, her relationships and it's beautiful to see. Mads is a very good friend of mine, a fellow former drama kid as we spoke about on the last pod in great detail and a director. She spent months last year in the desert of South Australia directing treasure and dirt, a TV series she's currently editing. She describes the experience of shooting in the desert for 53 days as physically, emotionally and mentally taxing and absolutely life changing. We speak about that experience and the intensity of her work, how she has to disappear for months at a time and where relationships fit in that, where humanity fits in that and how to find balance. What does balance even mean? We talk about the power of friction and creativity, finding flow, why curiosity is the sexiest quality in a human being and what happened when a brown snake appeared on set and why it made Mads feel so alive. When we sat down to record this chat, Mads looked at me and said, "Let's make it fun." So how did it feel realistening to the last episode? Oh no, it's been a year. It's been a year. It's been a year. It was actually really funny. I was listening to it on the train here and just thinking about how much has changed in my life and both of our lives, I don't know, since the last one. The main thing that was interesting was just listening to how much deep sort of psychological interrogation, I think we were both doing at that time and how much, at least for me, it was so forefront of my mind at all times and I felt that shift massively in the last year in the sense that it's been more about integrating that kind of thing and actually I'm finding that I'm able to be much more present in work and life and relationships and that was a nice realization, basically. That is so annoying. It's here in the integration phase. I mean, my integration era. I love that. The second half of last year you were in Adelaide and Cooper-Pete working on the TV show that you're currently editing and I would think about you often while you're away because we weren't really in contacts because you can't be. You're a director. You're in this other world that so many people in your life, your family and friends don't know and so I'm just curious to know what the second half of your year looks like. I know that's a big question. It's a cool question because it's very rare. I'm so conscious of being boring or just like talking people's ear off about something they're not interested in. When I go and do these things and then come back, it's often just a quick recap in a sentence and then moving on because starting to even begin to scratch the surface of what that experience is like, it's mammoth. I appreciate you asking because it means a lot. It was life-changing. Every project is life-changing in one way or another and I don't use that term lightly. You learn so much about yourself doing what I'm lucky enough to do. This one was a whole new challenge. In the first instance, I was not match fit in the sense that like I literally was not fit and I completely underestimated the amount of physical activity doing a location shoot in the desert would involve. Like the project I did last time, it was set in a courtroom and in the city and in houses and so you're in your feet all day but you're walking from one end of a room to another for the most part. But this was like our sets were like from one end of a cave, 100 metres through the desert to the other end of a cave, just running around like a lunatic and it's so physically taxing, mentally taxing, emotionally taxing but I felt so alive. I felt so alive. It was the most immersive filmmaking experience I've ever had. Every single one of my senses was stimulated and tested for 18 hours a day, every day for 50-queries shoot days and I got to work with, I think I said this to you on last time we spoke but because of the integrated and intense nature of this kind of work, it's like going away with the circus. So you meet lots of fabulous people every time but you're lucky if you find like one forever friend but this time I found I want to say at least four, maybe five, which never happens and so much of what we do in the industry I mean is tied to outcome, it's tied to numbers and it's tied to audience and it's tied to will it be renewed for a second season which international platform bought the show but I've learned that if I think about it like that I'll go insane because the process is so all consuming so the process has to be glorious and it was and these people made it glorious. That's incredible. Yeah it was. I've heard you speak in the past about how when you're collaborating with people who are like-minded and who are great at what they do and the respect what you do and you work together there's this sense of symphony that happens and the sense of slow that's happening at a collective level which feels just so sublime to experience. It is. It is and I think that I think that it's possible to experience because I came back and I was like well how do I feel that sense of sublime when I'm not in the desert but how do I integrate that idea into everyday life. Okay so here's an example my sister had a baby which is the best thing that's ever happened to our family. We're no-no we love we're no-no and no bullshit the feeling that I've got from being around my family in the two and a half three three weeks since we're no-no has been born is the same feeling we're all collaborating and finding our place in the bit that we can contribute to making this tiny person's experience of the world a little bit brighter and easier and more creative and it is exactly the same feeling that I've actually get when I'm on set and when a particular scripted line isn't working so I riff with an actor and then we find something better and purer and truer and we watch it come to life in front of us and it couldn't have happened without those two particular people or those a hundred particular people in that particular place. So what I'm trying to do is yet like with Winnie bringing that sense of creation into the everyday I guess that's not really what you've asked me but no but I love that I mean I often think about what what flow is because there are these moments as an artist where you access a state of flow and it feels so fleeting sometimes and hard to reach it's such a beautiful feeling everything's happening in symphony there's an ease there's a surrender there's a letting go of control I think that happens to the flood is a sense of trust in yourself in what you're creating and when you're working with other people in the other people who you're collaborating with if you can bring that into your life I feel like what you need is a mutual respect everyone needs to understand and respect what each individual is bringing to the collaboration to the creative act whether that's a film or a TV show or a baby that you're you're raising as a family. But I think as I'm processing this in real time, I do really feel like it's about each individual being aligned on the mission at hand and respecting each other's differences and strengths and roles. I think that's right, that's exactly right. I'm in the edit at the moment and my editor Tyson is such a legend. And we got match made basically as an editor, director, combo on the last project I did. But Tyson had come from reality and news editing. He didn't have any narrative experience. So admittedly at the beginning I was a little bit nervous, I think he was a little bit nervous. But also Tyson is responsible for many, many seasons of the Bachelor, which is one of this country's greatest shows and a fucking incredible feat of storytelling from an editing perspective. And so he brings this incredible sense of style and emotion and pace to our collaboration where I'm looking at. Well, actually we're both looking at the same things. We just come at them in different ways. And we constantly challenge each other and we have such productive creative arguments. And when we're in sync, it's unreal. And we're so united as a team in that we both know what we're individually good at and we both know what the other is really good at. And we do what we can with the limited time available to like empower each other to do those things basically. And the work is better for it. The work is so much better than anything I could possibly do on my own. So much better. Yeah, it elevates everything. I'm curious when you're on set for 53 days in the desert. You mentioned that you felt physically exhausted and stretched. 18 hour day sounds insane to me. And you're managing so many people, so many different roles. But you said you felt so alive. When do you feel most alive on set? It's the flow. It's when you have a plan for how a scene is going to go and where you're thinking you should pitch the performances in the context of the six hour story or trying to tell. And you've spoken to my wonderful cinematographer Ed and we've got a really clear visual language that we want to execute in the scene. And then something goes wrong. I'll try and think of an example. There are a lot. Okay, so one day we're shooting a hack. I won't not let a talk about story anyway. We were shooting a very, very important thing. That was set in a hot tub in the middle of the desert. And something bad happens to a character and then all of these other characters have to meet at this spot and analyze the evidence that's really important to this spot. When we got to set that day, there was a brown snake. So we couldn't go anywhere near the spot. We couldn't go 15 within 50 meters of the spot. I still have to shoot the script in the time available. But I can't go on to the set where it's set. And in that moment, my brain comes alive. Because in that moment, something happens and everything goes quiet. And it's like that meme. The meme or the gif of that woman sort of staring into the middle distance with all the mathematical numbers, just like overlaid over her face. Sort of like goodwill hunting bite or a bit rain man. It's like that. And what happens in my brain is I distill the scene to the point of it, which is that the point is something's happened to this character. These characters are having this emotional experience of it. And these other characters are investigating certain elements of it. And how can I tell that story in a completely different space without half the elements that it requires. And we ended up relocating it and making it really weird and putting it setting it in the back of basically this whole scene takes place with five people now sitting in the back of a red Mustang convertible, which is unhinged. But in the world of the show, we've created actually works. And when you do that and you execute that and you get the whole crew on board with the flip and the pivot. And everyone is so keen and everyone's so excited and everyone's like, this is what this is about. We're going to solve this best feeling in the world. Best feeling in the world. It's deeply creative. I mean friction can be an amazing tool for creativity. It forces you to think out of the box. It forces you to think differently. I don't think you can be creative without friction personally. And maybe that's because I'm used to arguing and friction as a creative exercise. But I think friction either can support you to dig in and disagree really firmly and reinforce your creative vision because you've been challenged on it or your challenge done it and it forces you if you're open and it forces you to think differently and go deeper. And both of those things are great, I think. I completely agree. I think as a recovering, perfect, some control for a great. I'm really trying to reframe my relationship to friction and not fight against it but work with it, which how are you doing? So something I learned last year that was so incredibly powerful was one of my favorite podcasts I listened to last year was Brian Eno, the music producer on As a Kinds podcast. Yeah. And I've mentioned this before but I think that's one of the most significant things I've ever learned and I plan probably doing a monologue on it one day as well. He has this sort of maximum of be the gardener, not the architects. So the architect knows exactly what they want to do. They have the plan drawn up to the exact specifics and their job is to go in and execute it from start to finish. So that finished product is a exact realization of the plans that they went in with. The gardener has an idea of the garden that they want to plant or grow. They plant a seed and then they've got to work with the weather. They've got to work with the soil and they want to tend to that garden every day. They want to nurture it but they're also open to the elements. So they're not affected, surprises happen or oh what maybe these tomatoes aren't red they're yellow and I know nothing about garden. Tomatoes is what first thing. Oh they're heirloom tomatoes. It's not Roman tomato. But I love that idea of your intentional you have you have an idea of what you are working towards. You have the seed but be open to the to the to fucking life like we cannot control everything. We don't know what's around the corner and and actually these unexpected things that happen can turn into the most beautiful outcomes that we never imagined. And I learn that the more I can go of control and be open to the fuck ups and the friction it's better than I ever could have imagined. It's such a beautiful, beautiful lesson and I do feel like creativity and creating things really is this journey of letting go of control. I really think it is and you know similarly recovering perfectionist hello but I I think that that is why this job is kind of perfect for me because it you can't I I mean there's a cubic way of doing it and the David Fincher way of doing it which is pure perfectionism and 70 takes and precise camera movements all the time. But that doesn't work for me I wish it did an older version of myself probably wishes it did but I've learned that as you say the best work comes from having a plan and being 100% ready to rip up the plan rewrite the plan pretend the plan never existed. Kill the plan with fire you know it's all it's all about the talking about integration like creativity for me it's all about integrating the idea and the tone I mean in my opinion a director's job more than anything is about the carriage of the tone. If you've got that in you integrated then at least in my experience the decisions that you make on set or in the edit in response to things that are unexpected are more often than not the right ones in inverted commas because you're coming from an instinctual place of knowledge of the tone and the idea that you're trying to communicate. I think i'm the need that ability to let go off and is a real deep understanding that's what we're doing that's right and that requires a lot of preparation a lot of a lot of work I mean I this she just had a quote drop into my brain of you have to prepare for the work to be free to do the work that is bang on in my opinion yeah that is bang on it's all. everything that you've done, that's why I think last year before I went away, when I was in like a writing phase, and I think I was telling you that I've had to do program some old sort of narratives or stories around like watching a movie during the day isn't work. And I go, "Well, actually no, for me, because that's actually, it actually is, and reading the book is work, and listening to that album is work, and it's all part of, and all of that stuff, that's the stuff that sits underneath your ability to let go." So true. All of that work, all of that feeding your inspiration, feeding your mind, figuring out your voice. What do you want to say? How do you want to say it? That is the backbone of being able to surrender to the creative process, totally agree. I learned that through the journey of the photo shoot for the cover of this podcast, and the experience of the photo shoot, the two photo shoots, the first one I went in as the architect, and the second one I went in as the gardener, and it was beautiful, it was fun, I was collaborating, the photographer brought his own magic, the Heron makeup artist, brought her in magic, but the first photo shoot which failed, really what failed is a harsh term, the first photo shoot which didn't go honest, didn't go honest. Yep. It wasn't about the photographer, it wasn't about the Heron makeup, it wasn't about the red turtleneck, it was because I. I'm sorry. Oh god, god. It was because I didn't fully understand why I was so drawn to that reference of Kapuchin in the first place, and it took me seeing what I didn't want to realize that it wasn't about the red turtleneck, it wasn't about the styling, it was how vulnerable she was in that moment, how honest she was, how it was hers, her face, and I didn't. That's on me. That first photo shoot, I didn't understand that the most important thing was the vulnerability, was feeling safe, was being myself. So all the choices I made were not with that in mind. 100% get that. I also just want to say that you are. stop being so hard on yourself, it's not on you. I think one of the hardest things to do, you have to talk about the feeling that you're trying to evoke, and that can be the hardest thing, like there are two versions of the process. There's the version of the process where you're trying to work with someone and you're going, "This is the feeling I want to evoke. How do we do it?" Memories of other process, which I think you're talking about, which is sort of both, but you looked at this photo of this woman, and you didn't know what it was that spoke to you. And so so much a part of the creative process and collaboration is being able to look at something and articulate what it is about it that speaks to you. And that is not an easy thing to do. The why? Why does this make me feel? This way, what does it make me feel? Exactly. Why does a whizanisan movie speed to people? It's its own world. There's something. So when I look at that, I go, "Well, there's something childlike and nostalgic about it. It allows us to access a version of ourselves that we're younger where everything looked sort of colourful and perfect, but it's got some really deep ideas and feelings underneath that, which is the truth of childhood. And you can do that for any piece of art." It was interesting then hearing you talk about your collab with Josie and talking to Jack about like understanding the strings. For context, Mads' boyfriend, Jack, is a composer who helped with the sound of masterpiece and connected me with Josie who composed masterpiece. Yeah. All very good eggs. So the interesting thing about hearing you talk about the process with Josie is that talking to music like in film, talking to a composer is one of the hardest things A for composers and B for directors because it is a different language to talk about music than the visual medium. They are married, but it's a different language. And when I first started, I would have these composer meetings where I'd be talking about the instruments and I'd be talking about maybe, and I still do it sometimes, I'm like maybe it's a electric guitar, maybe, and that that was not what I've learned is that you have to talk about the feeling. Yes. I think great art makes you feel something and so feeling has to come first and it takes a long fucking time to figure out why. And I remember when I first sat down with you and Jack to get your advice about how do I bring the sound in my mind to life and I showed Jack the photo that I loved and I showed Jack the Pierre opportunity song I liked and I think Jack had since how attached I was because he was like, how did you know it could? How about, and this is way back before I done any of the photoshoots, he was like how about you license the photo that you love that you're obsessed with, how about you license the song that you love and that really, that was important that he did that because that I was like that's interesting. I don't want to do that but it's interesting that he suggested that he could sense that I was being a control freak and that I was so attached to the thing rather than the feeling underneath the thing. The experience of the photoshoot, all these sort of conversations that I had Brian E. Knows saying be the gardener, not the architect, all helped me realize that what I wanted with the sound was not to recreate a Pierre opportunity song was to capture that feeling which was strings that sing that float you away to your favorite place where you can be yourself and you can be free and that is so fun when you get to the essence of it and then you work with people who are aligned and you bring that to life, that is so fun. It's when you've created a shared language with somebody without realizing it and a shared like literal language so for example with my cinematographer Ed who I love, we're both able now because we're so in each other's heads and aligned to look at a frame, he'll frame something up to look at a frame and go that's not quite this show and we can't necessarily articulate why or we probably actually could but because there's no time we're at the point where we both look at it we go that's not the show it needs to be over here and more square and both of us just know and we go. And that's a different version of flow. It's when the project or the work starts to exist outside one brain it starts to become an idea. As you're saying that I can't help it think of David Lynch's Masterclass and he sent me where he speaks about catching an idea and bringing it to life. You catch the idea, you write it down really like capture that initial feeling, hold on to that magic and use that as bait to catch a bigger fish. It's all from that original idea that original seed but when you're working on something that is bigger than you and you're working with other people you have to find people who are helping you bring this idea to life. That's where you get that collective flow. It's true and it can be different for different projects and that's also really special like sometimes a particular project or piece of work demands one kind of creative relationship or one sort of artistic sensibility and another one demands something completely different. It's just something happens in the alchemy of when that group of people get together that is right for one thing but maybe not quite right for something else. And there is such an intensity to the work that you do and this is something I wanted to ask you about because you go off for many months at a time and as you said it's so intense that you have to be so present with the job at hand. The 18 hour days, the millions of decisions you have to make in a day, the many people you have to manage. How do you manage the intensity of your work? How are you a director and a human? Sometimes it's really hard but I think about all of the things I've read from the people I really admire and what I know as well to be true and so I don't think that you can be a good director without first being a human because otherwise what is the work reflecting on if not humanity. And I think it's always important to have some kind of grasp on that. It's not always easy and I have historically not been particularly good at it and it's a constant process. How do I do it? I mean it's really hard. I disappear. I don't. I disappear for months of the year and it's not something you know. It's what I have to do in order to do the work, like the literal work of directing and the people close to me. I'm fortunate that they're really understanding and patient with me and they trust and know that I'll come back. But I'm also aware that it can't be easy. And like, I have two little God daughters that I haven't seen in months, which I hate. And there is so much sacrifice in the job that I do, no doubt about it. There always will be. And that is something that I'm constantly navigating. And I think I used to approach it from a very defensive place of like, well, this is just what I have to do. And everybody else can fall in line around me. And I needed to do that for a while in order to back myself and to feel the ownership that I do now over my career and my experience. But I'm now more focusing on not letting myself off that easily in the sense that I'm trying to challenge myself to see if I can balance both as best I can. And I know I'm not always going to get it right. I'm probably rarely going to get it right. But just making it a value of mine to water my humanity and water my relationships and connections and experience of the world. That's at least been enough to sort of start moving that direction. Does that make sense? Yeah. Well, you're aware of it. You're aware of the imbalance that is inherent in the work that you do and want to figure out balance. But I'm seizing on that word balance because I shrink it. It can be quite narrow the way that people define it. And I think that's what I'm quite interested in unpacking with you. I think there can be a pressure to be balanced every day to be exercise, you're healthy, you manage all your relationships, you go to work, you also manage your mental health. You're supposed to be a friend, a girlfriend, a daughter, a director, you know, all these things. Yeah. In one day. Yeah. And I really struggle to hold space for all those selves. And I loved hearing ritual talk about balance in a different way that you can have balance on a more macro level than a micro level. So instead of trying to squeeze everything into one day or one week, what about having seasons in the year? And that makes much more sense to me. Like having a season where it's intense work, intense creativity, having a season where it's intense rest, like recovery from that intensity, to work on yourself, to feed your body, to feed your mind, to prevent burnout. And then having seasons of life that are about being with your friends, being with your family, being off. Like I get balance in that way. Same. That's the only way I know how. It's the thought of having perfect balance in every day. I couldn't, I would never, if I held myself to that standard, I would always fail. Always. And I want to just release you from that, that thinking. Because I think that's, that's so hard. How we have different life throws insane stuff at us at any given time that we just have to absorb and deal with. And that's going to mean that, and whether it's life throwing that at us or it's just chasing a goal or an ambition or a dream. Like, Marty's the prime. Great. Cool. So what I think you're saying is there is a pressure to be perfectly balanced at all times. But I, when I think about that, I go, I don't know where that comes from. That doesn't work for me. And if I hold myself to that standard, I'll be a very unhappy person. And so it's going, okay, well, what does balance look like as you say on a more macro level? And I think you're right when you talk about seasons. It's interesting. It's a bit more amorphous than that. For me, like, I'll have a season of intense work. And then that job will finish. And I'll start probably thinking about the next one. But not in a, it's because I feel so like alive to the work. I can't really help but being spiced is still in the flow. Yeah. And that's when the idea is dropping. That's right. And you're in that state. That's right. And so for me, it's then it's not about then going, oh, you have to rest now. And this is your season of rest. It's about going, what is, where is my brain taking me? And if it's taking me into this other idea, then how can I follow that flow and follow that trail in a way that is still nourishing and can prepare me to then bite onto it and go intensely again? I know it's a bit vague. It makes so much sense to me. It's the Dow. So the Dow is, you know, a very top line. I don't know much about it other than it's like the underpinnings of the creative act. Okay. My Bible. Yeah. The Dow is like an ancient Chinese philosophy that is built around, around being in harmony with the universe. You're in flow with yourself and the universe. I mean, it's another form of resonance. That sense of symphony that we speak about being in tune with the your rhythm and the rhythm of your environment and those things working together. So whatever feels true for you is true for you. There's no right or wrong. Like before when you were saying, I don't know if I'm always going to get it right. In my mind, I was saying, but what is right? It's so unique. It's so personal. And I love speaking about these things because it holds space for another way. Like I often feel like I'm surrounded by a blueprint that doesn't doesn't feel like me. And I for so many years, I've thought, what's wrong with me? And I'm learning to let go of that and think, oh, it's just not for me. So what is for me? And be curious about what is for me? And I've been realisting to a podcast with James Fry, the author that I wrote a million little piece. He wrote a million pieces. Was that based on his experience? Yes. It was 85% autobiographical 15% fiction, which created a lot of, there's a whole controversy with him and Obrath. I highly recommend anyone listening who's interested in this, listen to the ritual episode with James Fry. It is fascinating. Okay. I'm going to send it to you. Okay. Great. He, the way he has designed his life, the way that he writes books, he's very much into the Dow and meditating. And he worked with his therapist for the last 20 years to learn how to work with the, he calls the furnace inside of him. The panther that he hasn't said, he said, he says, I need to work with my darkness and use it to create light, basically. Wow. So deeply relatable. Yeah. And he speaks about how he writes a book now, which has taken 20 years for him to figure out. But he prepares to write a book like training like an athlete. He meditates every day. He works as his therapist when he feels like an idea for a book has dropped into his mind. He starts to meditate more so that he's building like this reservoir of stillness, I suppose. And then when he's ready to write the book, he wins off the meditation, he wins off his therapist, he wins off his antidepressants, and he intensely writes for 60 days where he goes in for 14 to 18 hour days, that he warns the people in his family. He goes so intensely into it. He is in the flow constantly. He writes forward. Every book, since a million little pieces is a first draft, he never reads over it. He is so connected to it. And then as he's feeling like he's finishing the book, he's learned through many years that he has to start to bring in a bit of the meditation, bring in a bit of the antidepressants, bring some therapy back to ease him back into his life. So he doesn't have, he used to fall into sort of a depressive state after that high being in the flow. And I just loved hearing about the way he writes books. I've never heard anything like it. So I love that idea that when you finish one job, you're not feeling the most primed for a new idea to come in. That's cool to learn about yourself. Yeah, it's true. That's such an interesting, I have lots of thoughts about that. I'm going to listen to the podcast and then let's talk about it. I think that that's amazing. And I think that our friend Jonno, he has his own version of that, which is how he writes his books by hand or in his notes app. To a lot of people would be not the most efficient way to do it, but it's the way that he knows how. And it is that thing of harnessing whatever that path they're all that furnace or whatever you want to call it is inside you. Jack, my partner is a bit like that. Like I find the way that he approaches creativity really amazing. He's so patient, which I am not. And thoughtful in the way that he approaches things and doesn't crave validation in the same way. So he's been composing music further show at the moment. And I heard a little bit of it for the first time. And it was amazing to me that he's been sitting in that studio for two weeks and then coming home to our place at night and we just like watch a movie and chill out. And he doesn't talk about it. And then I get to hear it. And he's written it's genius. And I learned so much from also being proximal to his creative process, which is so different from mine. And I think just to segue slightly, but there's also something really cool about getting to be really up close to somebody else's creative process and seeing how it works for them and knowing with confidence that it probably wouldn't work for you in the same way, but taking the bits that may, I've become patient from being close to his process. I sit with things for a little bit longer before feeling the need to like yell them from the rooftops, not always. So yeah, I don't know. I suppose circling back to the blueprint thing. Whatever that other blueprint is of how to live a life, fuck it. But there are lots of blueprint around us for how to live a creative life, and some of those will also be like, fuck it. But it's about finding the one that works for you fast. I think that's why I'm so drawn to artists and creatives and people who are living differently. I'm in awe. I want to know more. It inspires me to be more me. Every time I meet Darryl, my art, mental and friend, I'm so inspired because she's so unapologetically herself. She's so kind and considerate. One of those wonderful people I know, but she doesn't give a shit about what you think about her. And that's so cool. And the way she dresses, she has tattoos and her. She's just so cool. I make you the coolest person ever because you are so you. And somehow that feels like rebelling like to be us. Why is being yourself? What does it feel like rebelling? I mean, that is like a huge question. Look, there are so many reasons that we're both aware of. What I think is interesting is when you've acknowledged that it can feel like rebelling for like a year, right? Like you've started the process of adolescencing. And you start to heal that. But then it comes up again. To me, that's where I'm at anyway now. For the most part, these days, I'm so grateful I've managed to let go of feeling like I'm rebelling much anymore. It's more like, because rebellion suggests without words suggests that there's a norm that you can't have, you can't rebelling unless there's like a flag in the ground that you're rebelling from. And I've done my best to take that flag out and throw it away. So it doesn't feel like rebellion anymore. It feels like just being just authentically living, authentically living. Most of the time. It can not all the time. Yeah. I think, I mean, why can it feel like we're rebelling when we're trying to live authentically? Well, it's environmental. It's circumstantial. It's how porous we are to other people's opinions. And if your growth is minded and you're creating and you're growing and you're stretching yourself, and people not everyone is sort of wired that way. I'm not everyone really wants to grow and change and stretch. And so it can be confronting to other people when you're changing and you're growing. That's true. And I think it's another reason why I'm so drawn to creatives because there is a shared appetite for growth and being your weird self. And it's so fun to learn. I mean, I even does this week. I was struggling. I was really struggling with the monologue I was working on. And I was, it was, there was a lot of construction, which was a big part. But it was also just like, I get so in my head when I'm sitting down at a desk with a mic and I went for dinner with rhymes. And she was like, why is it so hard for you? Because you're so great at voice notes. She's like, you are the queen of voice notes. You are the queen. It's my favorite thing I have at head voice note for you. I find them so effblous. Like, I come alive with a voice note. There's such ease. I leave people who I don't even know that well voice notes. Like five minutes. Just drop it in. And then I, somebody for like, I like quite shocked and they, they try and voice not be back. And then they're like, sorry, I couldn't do it. Like, it's so natural to me. So I thought it was interesting. How Roma was like, why is it so hard for you to record when you're so good at voice notes? Like, how can you channel voice note energy? And so the next day when I went to record the monologue, the construction was so bad that I had to leave the house. And I took these tiny mics. And I wandered around and found this hidden patch of grass. It's like, got a view of the ocean. And I started pacing around and I recorded the episode while walking around this patch of grass. But it sounded so good. I wouldn't have known. Yeah. I mean, that's just testament to the tech these days. But I, I voice note when I walk. So I just learnt in that experience that walking helps me speak freely. That's so sick. I think I have to walk and talk when I record monologues. I think that's a such a great idea. It's like going to walk with a friend. Yeah. Like, you would do, you do that with friends. Yeah. It's rare that you do what we're doing now. Yeah. Which is sit down with a microphone, just opposite a friend and chat. Yeah. Which is perfect for this format. But also, we could do the next one on a walk. Love that idea. Which would be really fun. And we'll say, like, to me, there's something fun and go in picking somewhere different to go for a walk. And then just seeing how our conversation responds to the environment around us. Let's do that at the arc, I'll rate one time. Well, I think it's just being curious. I'll favor a word of the most sexiest quality in a human. It really is. It really is. When something is curious about me, I feel like the most magnificent person. Like, I feel amazing when someone looks at me and is so interested and genuinely curious. It's a great feeling to be the recipient of that totally. And it also tells you a lot about the person that you're talking to. Because curiosity, I guess, presupposes that you're not coming in with preconceived notions. So there's like a blank slateness to it. If it's pure curiosity, if it's not like curiosity within a gender, that's right. That's right. Well, it's like there's these different forms of listening. Real pure listening is being present with a person without thinking about how you're going to respond, without thinking about what you want to say, what you want to ask. Just really listening. Yeah. You're so good at that. Really? Yes. So that's why I miss the work. Well, I think it's my love language. Quality time is how I feel most loved. And so I suppose I show that to other people. Yeah. Well, I think that's beautiful. I haven't thought about the love language for such a long time. What's yours? It used to be words of affirmation. But now I think they're bullshit and I never trust them. As in receiving them, I'm terrible at receiving compliments and terrible. But that's how you feel most loved. It used to be. So I remember my ex boyfriend James, who's like a dear friend of mine now. He used to joke like he'd try and give me a compliment. And I'd be like, like, like, and so he he started basically like sending me email. That were just about random shit, all of which were true. So he'd send me an email about important stuff that we had to do or talk about. And then in the body of the email, he'd bury a compliment and then it'd keep going. So I was sort of forced to take it in and believe it because it was couched in the context of other stuff that I knew was true, which is so fucked up. But that's how you could receive it. It was housed in like facts. Yeah. Things that you perceived as fact. Yeah. Undeniable truth. Yes. So, wow. It's not. I mean, we're so complicated. I think that's fascinating and quite genius on his part. Yeah. It's very clever. Well done, Nug. But I'm curious what your love language is now. Quality time. Quality time. Yeah. I like you. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. Giving and receiving. Definitely. What are the other ones again? So we've got quality time. We've got words of affirmation, affection, or physical touch. Yeah. That's also important to me. Yes. They can all be important, but there's generally one that you you feel the most. So if I give Matt a hug, yeah, he feels the most loved. His other language is affection. He looks me in the eyes and says, how are you? Like take me now. What's harder than that? Like how are you really? They look really just like looking in the eyes. That to me is that's how I feel most love. Yeah. So then the other two are gifts. Like, you will feel so loved if you come home with their favorite bouquet of flowers. And the other one is acts of service. Yeah. So some people will feel the most loved when they come home from work and their partner has made them dinner or like clean the dishwasher or like unsteak the dishwasher. I clearly am not very dumbest to get. I couldn't even think of the terminology of you cleaning the dish. - What's that? - You are in the stack of addition? Please keep this in. - Yeah, of course. I am proud of being not domesticated. I'm out loud and proud. I'm not domesticated. I'm messy. Matt is the domesticated one. - He's a domesticated bodice. And he shows love through acts of service. - So does he. - He feels love through affection. And I fall love through quality time. - So it's a mind-filled basically. But learning how the other person in your life feels loved and trying to show love in their language. - Yeah. - It's just loving smartly. - Yes, totally. I've forgotten about the others. Act of service is such an interesting one. That was one that I also like, I'm terrible at absorbing. Because I find certain things really challenging to certain normal living life things. If somebody can help me, it's like such a blessing for me. But then I also have this thing in my head that pretty supposes they want something in exchange and that it's not. - It's a transactional. - Which I'm working on. - Yes. - But quality time, for sure. - Yeah. - For sure. - I'm curious when you're coming out of your intense. I'm on, I'm a director, I'm on shoot. I'm having 18 hour days. And then you're integrating back into society. I know you're right now in the edit phase, which is still its own intensity. 'Cause it's late nights. How do you navigate transitioning from that one world into the other? - I don't very well the answer. But I'm getting more and more used to it now. So I'm not as, like I remember when I finished my first, long form job, which was a relatively short shoot. It was two and a half week shoot. But to me that felt like forever 'cause I didn't have a done short films before that, which were like two or three days. But I was like, fuck, I am just spent. And I will never recover. How can I go into a dark room and edit this thing when I've just had this transcendent experience? - It's simply, it's pretty delicious. - I'm in a nice and natural, look at my job back into the dark. And then you spend like a week in the edit and you're like, I don't remember what being on set was like. And it's really like that. Like I know people talk about this with childbirth. I'm a fucking, I never had a kid. But they say that your body releases hormones so that you don't remember the trauma that you went through so that you do it again and procreate more. I feel the same way about the act of creative creation. The food. The short answer to that, which is not short 'cause I'm still talking is trying to be kind to myself and gentle with myself. And if I'm finding it hard, like going from being in the bright sunlight for 12 hours in the desert to then being really in a pitch black room, staring at a screen for 12 hours a day, it's crazy that it falls under the same job description, but it does. I've learned that I am the pretty adaptable person. It's something that I'm naturally pretty good at. And it probably comes from when I was young, code switching a lot and trying to fit a lot, being it chameleon and adjusting your identity and personality to who you're with. That's right. And so that was the more, that was the less healthy version of it, but I think there's a benefit to it, which is going, okay, I'm adaptable and I'm malleable and I can let that part of the process go and now step into this part of the process while still retaining my sense of self. - That's an amazing skill set to have. It makes me think about how when we spoke last time on air, when I asked you about your morning routine, you were like, I don't have one. You're kind of like in my mind, that's chaos, but like you're random with your, like you kind of, you know, aside from your macona, like take the macona with you, you know, like you kind of want to be in a different, you're adaptable. That's right. So that's quite suited to the career path and you've chosen. It's true. What I will say though, that has been hard is being in a relationship. It does make it harder to be malleable because you miss the person. Like I used to be able to just go away and for better or worse, forget, like I'd have to forget my life. But being away from a partner who improves your life for months is really, really hard. And even being back in Sydney, but being in the edit and getting home and that person's already asleep is harder. So I'm learning also in real time that there's a really beautiful thing to having that sense of home and stability. And whilst I can be really good at quotes which, like I said, and flipping between different things, I might not always want to because there are other, well, yeah, there's this other person who's part of my life now. Yeah, I suppose it's this constant evolution. And I suspect maybe something that will be a part of your new process or one of your seasons in the year especially when you've been off for a while is coming together as a couple. It's so true. And we have actually learned that. Like we're very conscious about that reconnection time and knowing how important it is, especially because we're both creators. When we're both creators and you're completely off in your own brain half the time, you need to remind yourself that there's another person there. Well, this is why I found Marty Supreme a little bit triggering. I was so in the world of that film and he is so committed to his dream of being the best ping pong player in the world. And you feel his ambition. And when Matt and I walked out of that cinema, I was like, what did you think about how devoted he was to his craft? And he was like, I thought it was really inspiring and cool and I loved that commitment. And I could so see myself in Marty Supreme that I was like, I saw then his eye falling apart around him or the cost, the sacrifices. And I don't know, I guess I'm often questioning my character or something and trying to hold space for both truth. So I have this one part of me that likes to fully throw myself into something. To write a book intensely for 60 days that James Rye and the Woods of Connecticut makes the most sense to me more so than being balanced in the day and wearing multiple hats. That does not make sense to me. And then this other part of me who really cares about the people in my life and the relationships in my life and nurturing those. And it's just like figuring out how to honor it all. Yeah, but also you don't have to always. Yes. Marty Supreme is the extreme because he does not give a shit about anyone in his life. And it's not nice to see that. And that's right. And it's an interest, I always think about this for cinema in particular, especially like very popular films which are often not, you know, art house films is something a little bit different but especially with these Oscar Bay films, like they can be so inspiring and you watch them and you're watching a character who's so single-minded. But then, you know, storytelling is all about conflict, right? Like there's an argument that it's not but in these kind of films in particular that dramatic engine is the conflict. So you're watching this person but it's engine me, the way that the script and the story is engineered is for him to come up against as much hardship as humanly capable. Yeah, it's dialed up to the extreme. That's right. And then get something really inspiring out of it. But if our lives were like that, we'd be very unhappy, I feel. Yeah, yes, that is the extreme. Yes. But I do, I obviously completely agree with you. Like his single-minded determination and focus that he's pushed it to the extreme but that is so, it is so relatable. And I'm, yeah, so can I ask about your painting? Yeah. So what's where am I at? Yeah. Well, I mean, I really miss painting, as you know, and I've been thinking about it a lot. And while I was at this retreat for a week, yeah. And thinking about my year and what do I want this year? I was holding like, where's painting in this? I miss it, I love it, but where does it fit? The Kuzmastapisas podcast is so important to me. Like it is, it feels like at this stage of my life, it's a mission. Like I have so much energy for it, passion, it's bigger than me, I'm so clear on that. And I am a person now, it's a throw myself into one thing and learn and do better and better. But I miss painting at the same time. And while I was away, I was reading Sally Man's book, artwork, Sally Man's photographer, and you need to read this book. She speaks about her relationships who art and what she's learned. It's very the creative act coded. And she gives the advice of like, if you're an artist, take 25 years to find what you want to say and how you want to say it. So even just within photography, it took her 25 years to find her voice, to find her language. And she says, don't put pressure on having to sort of arrive too soon. Like it's not endless in the best interest of your art form to have to sell it straight away. And reading that, I realize that what I want from painting is to remove the pressure. I want to spend 25 years exploring. I don't know if I've ever really let myself fully explore. I found a style quite early on that I liked, that other people liked. It was commercial, I could live off it. And so I went down that path. And what I really want my painting is to, explore. I want to try a bunch of different styles, a bunch of different mediums, I want to figure out what I want to say and how I want to say it, and I want to give myself time to do that. So I want to paint, but I almost think like I want to give myself permission to play for a long time, because even when I gave myself permission to play in London, it was like a summer, and there was this unwritten expectation that even though I was like, "Okay, nothing needs to come of this." Like, there also was this part of me that was like, "Okay, yeah, be free, but also like what's the collection, like you're going to have to make money." And so I suppose the answer question, I want to paint within a completely different way, and I'm not quite sure that looks like alongside also wanting to build this podcast and be a human and integrate. And I almost think it begins going to some classes, like life-drawing class, I think I want to, I will do that with you, I love life-drawing. Yeah, I think I just want to play, you know, I'm still selling my art that I have, and I sell prints all the time. I work with interior designers and developers, and I'm earning an income off the art that I have created, but I don't want to have to put pressure on the art that I create next to Analiving. I want to find that in other ways, so that my art is free. I think that's awesome. I think that's so awesome. So Jack's best friend, Thomas, is Irish, and Thomas is one as an artist. I can visual artist, and I've never met her, but she's fascinating. Her name's Catherine Boyg, and she sent Jack a book that she's had made just in the post because they're friends last weekend, and I read it, and it's beautiful, and she's in her 70s, I think, and it's a collection of all these sketches that she's done over her life as an artist, that she's just put into this beautiful book for herself, really, I think. And I was looking at them and thinking of you, because what she, and she writes little misuse in there, and what she writes is that she feels the most flow, and the most connected to people when she's drawing them, and she draws them on the train and on the street, and it's like a 30-second thing, and it's her way of connecting with other people, and it, for no reason, other than pure connection. It was just her way of getting in touch with somebody's soul. And I was looking at these sketches and thinking of you and remembering these messy sketches that you used to do that were like very liney, and very immediate, and full of life, when we were a lot younger. I could have even been in our school books, or some, I did scribble a lot in my diary. Yeah, I think it must be that. And I've always remembered your hands drawing in pencil, and something about looking at this book of Catherine's sketches reminded me of my memory, whether it's fake or not, of your early sketches. And then I was wondering, I wonder whether there's something in you doing a 30-second sketch of your guests on this, as part of the process, whether you publish them or not. It's just about you talking to somewhat, well, you could do, you could do two things. You could do a 30-second sketch before the interview, and then sketch the person again at the end of the interview, and see if it's shifted. I mean, I love that idea. Yeah. I really love portrait, and I want to explore. Like, I love Lucien Freud, Francis Beijing, quite grotesque. I haven't never let myself explore that world, and I would love to explore that. And maybe there is a world in which, when I've explored it more, I could paint the person that I'm speaking to. That speaks to me well, I think, then the sketching. But there's so much play to me between, and it feels quite private. Yeah. I think I need to remove the audience completely. I think I need to feel so safe, and I said, "Do that. No one is going to see it, not because I want it to be perfect." It's vulnerable. I want to explore. I consider seeing myself bringing a bit of Tracy M&E energy to my work, where my writing comes into it, and like, quite visceral feeling, deep feeling. That kind of scares me a little bit. Like, art has always been a place painting is where I can feel, and I can express myself. And as I go further into therapy, and learning about myself, and being myself, there's a lot that I'd never let myself feel. And I want to use art as a way to channel that. And I think for a period of time, it needs to be a bit of a cocoon for myself that I completely get that. Did I? Did I give you that Louise Bushwell book? Everything that you're talking about, she has lived. And it was this amazing exhibition I thought, at Dark Gallery, Me South Wales. There was the, you know, there's the tank under the ground there. So all of her darker works were down there, and then all of her lighter works were in the gallery space above ground, which I just conceptually really loved that. But her stuff was all about excavating the darkness and the myth. I have to read that. That feels very aligned with the sort of direction I want to move when it comes to being a painter. I have been sitting with this like from an identity point immediately, because I feel so excited about this podcast, and this feels like a creative act to me in the same way that creating the one more journal was a deeply creative experience. But then I'm like, where does the painting fit? And I then have Dowell in my mind saying to me, but you are an artist and these are all different art forms. Yeah. Conversation is an art form, writing is an art form, painting is an art form, different seasons of your life, different chapters of life, you feel more drawn to different ones. And I'm sure there are the other things that I never imagined I would do. Catch ideas, bring them to life. What's the best way to bring it to life? Yeah. So I'm open, but I found comfort in the clarity that I want to paint. It's just that I want to learn how to paint in a different way and to take the pressure off it. And so then how do I begin? I think it's about environments where pay as possible. Yeah. Getting out of my comfort zone, life drawing, cocooning, immersing myself in Tracy M and Dark Mofo. Yeah, Dark Mofo, yes. When you look at the year ahead, the year of the horse, the year of the firehors, what are you excited about? So many things. I am excited to be an auntie. Most of all, I'm just so excited about that. I think about Little Winnie every day. I'm excited to travel because I've worked so hard and I the collective answer to the question is I'm so excited to feed myself. And that's with like being around this newborn and being part of this new version of our family, going to Dark Mofo, hopefully exposing you and Matt to Dark Mofo and eating oysters that are fresh out of the fucking freezing ocean and swimming in the freezing ocean naked and seeing really challenging experimental dark art and having my mind warped and expanded by it, going overseas to see some of the people I fell in love with on this last job and visit them and having that be the reason to go overseas is so special and it's looking touch wood like I'm finally going to make my own TV show which is very cool which has been six years in the making. Wow. Yeah. And that theoretically will shoot if all goes to plan which you never really know but we're getting closer and closer so ideally that would shoot before the end of the year and it's a dramedy and it's very personal and it will be a whole other kind of challenge but it will be the first project that I've created and directed and it's got like me and some of my best friends DNA in it and my family's DNA in it and it will hopefully be the first time a Jewish Australian story has appeared on our screens so that will be pretty cool. That is so cool. Yeah. I hope it happened. You learn pretty quickly in this business that I have this thing where because it's so hard to get things made I don't actually believe that anything is made until the second last shoot day and on the second last shoot day I'm like well we've got 99% of what we need in the can so it's probably going to happen now but until that point I'm just like this is a fiction this is theoretical because I've learned and you do like I said you learn really quickly you can't get your hopes up or you can't get to attach because there's so much money involved in these things and everything changes so quickly so maybe that will happen and if not I have a bunch of ideas percolating that are all different genres and styles because that's what I'm most excited by doing something different every time. I love it. I thank you for sharing because I feel like it can be quite vulnerable to share what you're excited about. I don't know I love hearing people's sort of dreams, you know, the year ahead or 10 years ahead or and it's nice to say them out loud because you have to surrender, you know, you can only do your best to bring it to life and there's so much out of your control but it's nice to just feel excited about it and move toward it and then be open to different things blossoming. It's so true. And I think like the other cool thing about we were talking about this this morning, like, well, I could listen to this conversation next year and be like, oh my god, that happened. How crazy. What an amazing record of this excitement that I was feeling and then it happened or this other thing happened and what an amazing record of the excitement I was feeling and then things just pivoted completely. So true. So I think what I started saying to you this morning before we started recording is I think that's a really special thing about what you're doing with this. It's having this growing organic changing record of all these creative people in your life and your creative activity and seeing how it grows. It's a conversation to conversation and year to year. I love it. I love seeing the growth and the change and the twists and the turns and us all being privy to it and sharing in it and seeing ourselves in it and learning from all those experiences. Well, that's the best bit for me about listening to your podcast because I get to hear that in you every week, which is so sick. And yeah, whenever you want. I'm not shy of talking. I love it. I want to finish with question and permission to not have the answer because I know you know, my year started February 17 with the year of the horse and when I sent me that episode that I did about permission to do less and permission to start your year later, you said can you give me permission to start even after the beat for the horse? I was like, yes, I added that into the episode. I was like permission to start the year whenever you feel ready. So I'm not sure if a year is begun yet, but I'm wondering if you've thought about your word for 2026. I did, didn't I? I forgot. I've been queried. I think you said Jack's word was present. That sounds alright. Okay, honestly, the first word that came to my mind just now was fun. Fun. And I look, I'm like beaming thinking about the word fun. And so I think maybe it's, it sounds really lame, but maybe my word is fun. Yeah, when we sat down to record this chat, you said, I want it to be fun. Oh, yeah. Let's make it fun. I don't know. I think sometimes the simplest words are the most interesting, complex, layered. I think it's fun. I think that I feel really charm to buy that. To me, it's just bringing a line-ness to the everyday. I think that's a beautiful energy to bring into the year of the fire horse. I will have a sudden, but like I literally never paid attention to the Luna calendar. I can't stop talking about it. Okay, so I'm going to blow your mind. If I told you about primals, Odeaac, no, okay, I'm going to name check the wonderful Sarah Pearce, who if she ever listens to her, Sarah Pearce, I love you. Sarah Pearce is a fabulous actor from New Zealand. She's been working for 50 plus years. I would probably, she's like my muse. And I just, yeah, I think she's fucking exceptional. She got me into primal astrology, which is basically, it's a combination of the year of the hot whatever and you're Odeaac. So if you type in, I'll send you the website. It looks like some, the website is fucked. It looks like some deep Bitcoin, dark web shit, but it's so funny. And basically it gives you an animal, but it's the animals that people get are so specific. Like somebody I know was an anteater. Somebody was a honey badger. I'm a seal. Which I feel really seen by one of my friends was a bee. And it's basically like what it is is it's the year you were born Chinese Odeaac. It's the animal composite of the year that you were born and you're Odeaac. And I find them to be, I love I'm a big sucker for confirmation bias. So I think it's so accurate. I'm going to send you the website and you can talk about it next time. Beautiful. That's my wreck. Thank you. Frimal Zodiacs. Here of the sun. Here are the fun firehors. That's our bad name. Thank you so much. Thanks for having. Pleasure as always. Thank you so much, Madu. Absolutely. I'm actually going to stop now. That was so fun.