Speaker 1And I'll just tell anybody, your limits begin where your vision ends. You never outperform your self-image. And if you're a leader who's only coaching the business stuff, there are three things you can train, body, craft, mind. So going back to that story at Washington State playing football, I was training my body, weight room. I was training my craft as a receiver. I was not touching the mental skills I needed to be the best version of me. So that's why I do what I do.
Speaker 2Welcome to the Revenue Builders podcast, a weekly show featuring B2B sales leaders and executives. Hosted by five-time CRO John McMahon and Force Management co-founder John Kaplan, the show takes guests in the barrel, behind the scenes, with the people who've been there, done that, and seen the results. Revenue Builders covers best practices for scaling and growing your business while sharing the pitfalls to avoid.
Speaker 3Today's guest is Colin Henderson, founder of Master Your Mindset and author of several books on performance psychology. His latest, The Oz Method, is out now. Colin spent his career at the intersection of elite sports and corporate performance. He's director of mental conditioning for UCLA Women's Basketball, works with Russell Wilson's company Limitless Minds, and has trained teams at Amherst. Amazon, Nike, Microsoft, Salesforce, and Lululemon. But what makes this conversation hit different is Colin's own story. A two-sport Division I athlete at Washington State University, he developed a stutter in sixth grade, a symptom he now understands of growing up, tying his own worth to performance. Years later, in a sales role that nearly broke him, he found the mindset work that turned his career, and became the framework he now teaches everyone else. This one's about the inner game. The 80% of performance most sales leaders never coach. Listen up. This is a good one. So Colin, following up on our, after our prep session, it was really a joy to meet you and get to know you a little bit. And I just think that the, your origins, the origin story is, is really amazing. Like, you know, just the background and, you know, multi-sport athlete. Would you mind just kind of getting us started to, you know, we got contacted from somebody who interacted with you, was pretty amazed about the content and the premise of your mastering your mindset and the Oz method. And, and so we'll get into all that, but would you mind just kind of giving us the origin story of how you got to that place? Sure thing.
Speaker 1We'll honor Cap and Matt. Great to see y'all. Hope you're having a good day. And I think the unfortunate thing I learned about change is when the student is ready, the teacher appears. And unfortunately most people aren't willing to do the work unless they're in a crisis. And thinking back to my years playing baseball and football at Washington state university, go Cougs. I was entering my third year playing football, had a great true freshman year, not so good sophomore year. So I was putting all this pressure myself. Like this is going to be the year. This is going to be it. I'm going to train. I'm going to lift weights. I'm going to catch passes. Like I have two more years. I'm an upperclassman. I just can't let this opportunity slip. So I, from the information I had on what I was in my control to be better at football is I got after the weight room and my technical skills. And I had a great spring, great summer, great fall camp. I literally was like Randy Moss out there. No one was guarding me and starting. And we're playing Idaho. It was a Thursday night. Like one of the first games of the season run ESPN, the place is packed, families in town. And two hours before kickoff, you know, we're, we do kind of like some of our, our walkthroughs and we go back to our, my locker. I had this panic attack because I was doing really good in these controlled practice environments of by myself, controlled environments with my quarterback and receivers team drills. Now this is going to be on. National television now, like it's real, the lights are on and the moment just consume me. And I was projecting what could go wrong. And, you know, there's different moments I can talk about. I had a, I had a sales experience very similar after grad school was in fundraising at Washington state, got into life sciences. So selling to doctors, selling to hospitals, selling to surgeons and sales is like sports. There's a winner. There's a loser. There's a leaderboard. There's rankings. You'll win. You get all the praise and you have a leader, a manager, you're part of a team. There's there's competition you're selling against other people. And I had these patterns of, you know, I felt great when I won, but I felt like crap when I lost. So how I summarize it, I'm a recovering perfectionist, people pleaser who gets self worth tied to performance. You know, anybody out there can resonate with that. And it got so consuming, you know, we would have these verbal tests, we had to go through this process of, you know, I had to do this over the phone. I had to take a Xanax. I literally had so much anxiety about not screwing up. So what I found before I get to what changed is, you know, shame is in the past and fear is in the future. So if you're stepping into a performance mode and you're re you're reliving your past mistakes and you're pre-living what could go wrong, that is going to just jack you up with your focus, being authentic, and being in the present moment. And I, I have an equation, a talent plus skill minus internal interference equals execution probability. There's a lot in there. So leaders. That's not hard to miss that equation. Yeah. If you're in tech sales enterprise, if you're a leader, if you're a producer, you hire for talent, you, you, you train skill, but the biggest common denominator, the biggest X factor is internal interference. And that is self doubt. Noise comparing, uh, what Dr. Michael Gervais calls the number one epidemic of performance, FOPO, fear of other people's opinions, focusing on what you don't want to have happen. That influences your execution probability. So it was just noisy up there. Cap and Mac. It was just a shit show up there of like this, like junk drawer. So I equate your brain is like a junk drawer when you're going to your junk drawer to get something, a tool you need to execute, whether it's a pen, scissors, tape, you name it, super glue. I don't know. And you can't find it or you found a pencil. There's, there's no lead in it. You can't execute. That's like, you know, what you're looking for to close a deal, to get connection, to handle an objection to, um, a tough conversation, you know, uh, a client who's going off the rails. You didn't expect it and you're looking for a mental emotional tool and it's nowhere to be found. So you self-sabotage or you, you delay, you don't, you don't perform. So when I changed companies in 2014, because of stress and present things, I just needed a different environment. I was given a gift. So I'll go back to that original thing. When the student is ready, the teacher appears, um, it's hard to create change unless you're looking for change. One of my favorite books is the brain that changed itself. The first step in learning is you have to want to learn. There's a law. So having that, that humility really is, is the birthplace of, of innovation. So I was given a sales trainer that was like, Colin, yo, dude, let's go. There's these business books. There's these mindset books and every organization, every year is learning about, you know, spreadsheets and I mean, no disrespect to an MBA, but like, here's the econ and here's, you know, the market analysis here, like P and L and, um, here is, uh, you know, pricing, but if you're going to really get changed, lasting change, if you're going to disrupt an industry and, and have the best tools, if you're going to have the tools, you need to succeed. Sales psychology beats sales strategy. There's an outer game and there's an inner game. Outer game is like 10 to 15%, yet most companies and business spend their time on that outer game stuff. Like I just mentioned rankings and your routing plan and dialing for dollars is having some type of KPIs, but you're not touching that 85, 90% under the surface where no one can see your mindset, your mental conditioning, your identity. So just having someone like that, and what I call break the pattern. Someone break the pattern and how I'm training, what I'm using my time, what I'm spending my time on to develop the skills to win. It changed everything. It's like the matrix has been used a lot. There's a blue pill. Here's a red pill. Like, well, which one are you going to take? It's just, he, he was teaching things like boss become things like attracts, like energy flows, where focus goes, which you resist persist. I'm like, Yoda, slow down. Like bring that back. Like he was just giving it to me. And then what I was really excited was, is, is he gave me a list of books. Now I could start studying. I can start searching these things on YouTube. I can start training different things. And not only did my blood pressure go from the high one fifties, high one forties to normal. Not only was I sleeping better, but I started setting sales records. I was better with my family. I was more present and it just unlocked possibility. you never outperform your self-image and if you're a leader who's only coaching the business stuff there are three things you can train body craft mind so going back to that story at washington state playing football i was training my my body weight room i was training my craft as a receiver i was not touching the mental skills i needed to be the best version of me so that's why i do what
Speaker 3i do amazing dude now you left out one piece from our pre-call which i would never guess because i spent time with you i've been an hour with you before and now just in this intro part here you had a severe
Speaker 1stutter that's true i just had it okay now let's let's let's go back even further you know let's go back even further but the what's so kind of interesting about why you brought that up is because i got so used to hiding it you know and usually you know if you look at you know what's the what are best every every story what do great storytellers or great stories or narratives have is they have five parts which i teach in the oz method yes part one is you set the scene part two is there's a challenge part three is there's a growth journey part four is there's a face your fear there's a plot twist and then part five is the resolution see i was saving it for that plot twist you know part number four but hey we're gonna jump right into it john so when i was 11 i was 11 years old i i changed schools it was in this honors program and i got asked to read out loud so i'm in a new environment i'm with i'm with kids i don't know i'm an honors program so i'm oh i have to like show up and show out and see prove that i belong and i kind of just got caught up in the pressure in a moment and that first week again new environment asked to read out loud and i got stuck in that moment and i was like i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this and i got stuck on a word i got stuck on another word and i had this warm blanket a blanket of shame really powerful book for y'all to take a look at is the body keeps the score said differently the issues are in the tissues so i had a embarrassing moment that my nervous system was just shocked my my identity self-image was just out of whack so that was such a scary experience i told myself don't let that ever happen again so what you don't use you lose because i avoided that those experiences because of that one bad event it was just one bad event it wasn't like a bunch of them it was just one bad event i carry that identity and that that self-image of i guess i'm not a good good speaker i guess i'm not a good public speaker and by reliving that bad experience and by pre-living um not screwing up guess what i would train my brain my nervous system about the skills that i need to have or lack of skills i developed a late onset stutter 11 12 13 and it would it would it got worse every single year um there was times in my life i couldn't say my own name i couldn't answer the phone i couldn't order food through a drive-thru um and i remember at gsk pharma i was asked to say something on a webex like get my commentary on some new stuff and like i had a laptop shop text my manager i lost service which was not true but i just coped with that for so long like going back to this iceberg and most people didn't know now my closest circle knew 100 but i did such a good job of masking and being so clever on adapting so people couldn't tell i remember we had a indication like a new a new indication and we had like different ways where they would evaluate us and some of them were it was on this like virtual thing and a phone thing i literally pre-recorded my answers right because i was too nervous to do it on my own i had two phones it was i was like like i don't know like a switchboard producer dj like switching based off a certain question i had pre-recorded my answer so much anxiety um i remember early in that process i got i went through training in seattle with with my manager and a few new new hires and the drug they said all right you're gonna sell vesicare for overactive bladder and i'm driving home in the minivan that i was given let's go single driving a minivan i moved back home my parents because i just left pullman sleeping in bunk beds talk about a catch let's go bunk bed parents minivan so i'm looking at myself driving home and i got this new new word i had to say it was vesicare i couldn't say it back to myself so i just like i've had a lot of hard things and it's like which one do i talk about so but that was a real thing that i literally and most people didn't know i was like i'm gonna go to the hospital i'm gonna go to the hospital i'm gonna go to the so i couldn't say the words i'm driving home processing i just left my other job for this job if i can't say the scientific drug name back to myself how can i say it to a doctor how can i say it when i'm going to fly to north carolina for three weeks of onboarding in this high pressure pharmaceuticals i can't even say it to myself so i went home i literally cried for like two hours but i'll just say this everything changed okay what was the the pattern interrupt everything changed i started doing speech therapy 26 27 years old now
Speaker 3let's get some context here you're a collegiate superstar in both football and baseball two sport athlete good grades uh captain of the team i think i was yep um and you're now dealing with this you've you achieved all that and now you're dealing with this at 26 27 that's it's just bizarre well
Speaker 1because i didn't address it i can even think back going into my senior year we're at this celebrity cougar golf tournament i was a celebrity and you know the donors pay money to golf with you this was pre-nil come on like imagine what happened if i was around the nil um but uh bud namek who was the voice of the cougs along with bob robertson pulled me aside calling we're gonna feature you this year as a senior leader on the radio just need to read this script this is while i was like putting you know getting ready for this golf tournament and normally most adults you know i was an academic all-american i had a 3.9 grade point average yes i couldn't read this paragraph because of anxiety now i could talk to bud namek and just like shoot the shit and just like but now when the spotlight went on when i had to say specific words that 11 year old came back and i was just frozen so and i didn't deal with it i didn't i didn't talk to anybody about it i just avoided it and i think maybe a lesson for y'all is let's just uh look at one of my life quotes by by joseph campbell the cave you fear to enter holds the treasure that you seek whether it was playing football having anxiety whether it was selling have anxiety and a lot of that anxiety was rooted from my childhood trauma that i did not deal with until i was 26 27 years old and asking for help is a sign of strength i don't want us to end oh fear think oh if i feel fear you know it's bad or i can't perform you don't know feel no fear i want us to k and ow fear if you don't understand the way the brain works with fear if you don't understand how to process it if you don't understand how to navigate it i think you're never going to have the influence you're going to have the success you're never going to unlock never going to heal you're never going to then transfer your pain into your into your power so by asking for help and then here's the another plot twist that will tie it all together going back to that first thing i said when the student is ready the teacher appears you're the problem you're the solution at gsk after going through speech therapy and like i bought a camcorder and i was practicing you know reciting words because there was like 100 words i couldn't say i wrote down these words i couldn't say so i'm practicing these words i get i i survive sales training at the home office and then when i start working i'm like oh my god i'm not gonna be able to do this i'm not gonna be able to do this out in the field one of uh my my team members was like a mentor she was the puyallup washington president of toastmasters and she's like colin hey i you're congrats on working at gsk you know we're gonna share some of our doctors she was selling different products but i'm the president of toastmasters you know toastmasters is i was like no well it's a it's a club globally where there's local chapters where we meet every week and we practice public speaking i'm like oh my god i'm not gonna be able to do this like oh my god i've already struggled and suffered enough going through all my shit now you want me to voluntarily do my fear in front of strangers every every week but man what what i've what i've what i've learned is that pain and shame cannot be healed unless it's shared just can't it can't and the longer you waited as weight so i said yes and i was scared but every single time i'd show up i found that the pain was gone and i was like oh my god i'm not gonna be able to do this the antidote to fear is action action and then growing from it having compassion growing from it but um nobody should worry or win alone if you don't share some of these things with someone it's like a virus that's going to just consume you but once you verbalize it ask for help there's this freeing peace that
Speaker 3comes over you i've never quite heard the Definition of fear and anxiety. through such vivid examples of how it manifests itself in one's life, but we all have it. So if we're listening right now, and for the rest of the time together, we want people to straighten their backs a little bit and lean forward and maybe get out a pen. What would you encourage that individual that's kind of listening right now? It's resonating. I have some panic. I have some anxiety. Anybody who says they don't, they're not alive. There are certain situations that, you know, I'll be in that will create certain scenarios. So how does one kind of identify? Now I want to get the most out of this conversation going forward. How does one identify where they are on this, in this conversation? And maybe my fears aren't identified. Like I'm afraid of stuff. Like I'm afraid to go to an economic buyer. I'm afraid to tell my boss, I'm not going to get the forecast or whatever that is. How do I get, how do I identify it before I can even, you know, you said the cave is there and what's the value in the cave to go in the cave. But I don't even know where the cave is. I just have this, I have just a bunch of awkwardness and a bunch of fear and anxiety about performance. Any suggestions? Well, the first
Speaker 1step is you're showing up to this podcast. I guess that would be the first step is just to say, I want to improve. I want to get better. And this is a great place to start. So let's just acknowledge the listeners. Thank you for tuning in. Thank you for getting this far. So as I just kind of think back on my journey, I would never teach somebody just to do something I haven't done. I would never expect you to try something I haven't tried or haven't researched and try to implement on myself. But what I look at is I think let's just kind of get, I have no other place to go, but the depth, I'm just, that's who I am. And I think there's a lot of surface people, surface content out there. What I found is the number one driver of behavior, what you run to and what you run away from is your identity. Just think that through your self-image, how you see yourself, how do you picture yourself? So what influences this identity and this self-worth? this, this image, really powerful book to, to look at is Psycho-Cybernetics by Maxwell Maltz. It was written in 1960. Psycho meaning thinking, the brain, cybernetics meaning port, a place of like where you go to. How do you see yourself? The most powerful force is how you see yourself. So what is deriving how you see yourself? I'll give you, it's, it's the definition of the word mindset. Think of these two words crashing together, mind and set. It's a set of beliefs, this collection of thoughts and feelings and emotions over and over again. The definition is, is a conditioned set of beliefs that drive behavior. And we've been conditioned by three things since birth, what we see, hear, and experience. What you see, hear, and experience. So your parents, your friends growing up, socially, what you're hearing from adults, parents, friends, social, what you're experiencing. And what I found is the brain doesn't tend to lean positive because it's a survival machine. It's one job is to keep you alive. The limbic system and the, your amygdala, one of the first parts of the brain that are actively working is looking at threats and danger. It's, it's shaped, you know, it's designed to survive, not thrive. It's shaped by what I call trauma, drama, daddy, and mama. So your picture of yourself, this, this internal image on how you see yourself, how you talk to yourself, what you expect, how you show up, how you think people perceive you, how you think, you know, just based off of evidence from, from your past is it's, it's shaped by negative shit. And most people, you know, haven't had deep dive therapy or coaching or retreats or, you know, because it's, it's normal to do fantasy football. That's normal. It's normal to go on vacation somewhere and just kind of check out and read a book. Like it's, it's very rare to say, all right, I want to uncover, like, what, what has shaped me? Why do I think the way I do? Why do I feel normal in these environments? Why am I, why do you feel normal in these environments? Because there's been a collection of experiences. So I guess the first thing that I can teach anybody is just understanding there are four dimensions of thinking. Dimension one, this is the first step of healing is words. Words create the second dimension, which are pictures. So if you're recycling words and language, so language is the wardrobe of our beliefs. Words, your self-talk is like code software of a computer. So if you're narrating, describing, you know, and narrating and describing and recycling using words to shape pictures. And then the third dimension are emotions. And the fourth dimension are beliefs. So the brain doesn't care what is true or false. The brain cares about what is repeated. So if I were to, you know, step one is like, what? What words do you describe yourself? I'm not a morning person. Always forget names and better directions. I'm a horrible public speaker. I tell myself, I'm just, I can't speak in public. Like when the lights are on, I've realized I like I'm, I'm reciting. I'm using words. Every, every culture is different language. Every click group has different slang they use. I'm using words that I'm, I'm, I'm re reminding myself of these, of this. I can see the classroom. Can y'all see the classroom? Can you imagine sixth grade classroom with desk, with a whiteboard, chalkboard, you know, coats up on the rack, crayons or scissors. Like I'm, I'm in that picture. I'm going back to that trauma in my mind. And the third, the feeling I'm recycling that feeling over and over and over again. And, and you wonder why, you know, I lack confidence or belief in that area of my life. So I think what we need to start doing is, what words and pictures and feelings that are unproductive do I keep going back to? Do I keep reliving? There needs to be just some compassionate, vulnerable, um, truth to uncover what's the source. And almost kind of, you may have heard this in therapy of just like re-parenting yourself or re-coaching yourself. If it was an event, you know, as an adult and just say, I'm going back to that trauma. I'm going back to that trauma. Man, everyone makes mistakes. No one is perfect. You're safe and you're okay. And I would have every single human master these five words. I'm not defined by this. You're not defined by this. Why, if you had nine great performances, you have the one negative that that's the one you focus on. That's the one that you derive, your words, your pictures, your feelings. You're just going back to that one moment. And if I can re-coach myself when I was a wide receiver, I would take my risks and I would write the number 99 on it. Why? Because my self-talk, the old self-talk is I would think about the one drop and think about not dropping a pass versus, wait a second. If I were to collect all the pass phone to me, I'm catching 99%. Why don't I focus on that 99%? Probably that will make, make the catch. But my, my negative stinking thinking is thinking about the 1%. But wait, the odds are in my favor. I'd catch it. But how many of us are going into these environments thinking worst case scenarios? What could go wrong? Or they're stepping in a moment and they're just going back and reverting to the bad experiences. So that's that intro interference that is just scrambling, authenticity and focus. So I guess the first step would be, be an observer. The very word mindful, is to pay attention. Just sit and observe, just observe your thinking. There's a new evidence, new development in brain science is called the default mode network. And that is like, where does your brain go in times of idleness? Is it, is it falling back to shame? Is it falling back to guilt? Is it falling back to regret? Is it projecting fear? So if you can name it, you can tame it. Step one to change is awareness. Awareness precedes behavior change. Mindful means to pay attention. Mindfulness is the practice of awareness being present without judgment. So don't judge. Don't just think it, ink it. You're probably recycling two, three similar thoughts, emotions, feelings over and over again. And our beliefs are not based on truth, our perception of the truth. So is that thought truth said by who? And as Jay Shetty teaches, spot, stop, swaps. But step one is to spot.
Speaker 4Buddy, I mean, it fits in, but sometimes in my life, when I had to do something really difficult that I was fearful of, I actually used fear to drive fear away. makes sense like i used to tell myself if i don't do it like in my job they'll find somebody else to do it so it's the fear of losing the job that allowed me to go do what i had to do so that
Speaker 1makes sense well i think what you're what you're talking about mac is you're finding a purpose larger than yourself yeah
Speaker 4like i mean one time physically even we were i was with a bunch of guys and we ended up on this knife's edge of a mountain where the only way across this 20-foot area was to stick your fingers into your fingertips and get and get across and i remember like the fear of everybody talking drove me to go do it first because i thought if i sit here more the fear is going to get even worse so you almost use fear to drive away my fear yeah i don't know if that makes any sense but that has definitely happened in my life in business where i did that many many times when i was uncomfortable or put in a position where i had to do something for the first time and what
Speaker 3were you talking about colin is that we project that on others so i worked for the dude for eight years and the fear his fear that he projected on all of us well how come it didn't drive out the fear for us buddy
Speaker 1well yeah i think
Speaker 3uh well i think well
Speaker 1there's different ways i tell
Speaker 4you what the other thing on it is anytime you're going to make a major change in life here's another experience that i had colin and i'm going to make a major change in life or other people are going to make a major change in life and they share it with other people and they're already have fear like there's a fear-based fear-based decision kind of keeping them from doing it then when you share it with other people what do they do they dump their fears on you and then you're almost saying well maybe i won't make that decision because i'm scared and now everybody i talked to is scared and telling you oh you shouldn't do that you shouldn't change your job you shouldn't move you shouldn't do this you shouldn't do that and you just gotta in some ways you have to fight through it yeah
Speaker 1well i have a few thoughts i can i can take this a few ways so i'm trying to figure out choose your own adventure what what lane am i going to take so but but let's just let's just relook at what fear is fear is a physical response to a mental threat and what's interesting about brain science is the brain and the body cannot tell the difference between what is real and what is imagined so what is the antidote to fear it's always action it's always the very word act action changes things this is from carl young that thing you fear the most that is your task and it's usually not real so knowing fear is is this imagined is this made up um well now danger and fear are two different things mac because i think you know there is some real actually self-preserving fearful thoughts that if that ledges little i should have some you know productive fear to keep my body safe but but the difference between danger and fear is because we have an ancient brain in modern times where you know we is this is there a saber tooth around the corner now Siou it's it's transitioning less for less from danger more am i socially safe do i belong am i am i fitting and we have the same physical reaction to a perceived social threat as physical danger yes palms are sweaty knees weak arms are heavy vomit on a sweater already mom spaghetti he's nervous i'm a servant he looks calm and ready to drop bombs but he keeps on forgetting you know what so you you can execute by yourself you can execute in front of a safe person but in front of this like high level executive or this really important client your brain starts sabotaging and you make the moment bigger than it is so i don't know i i just feel like um what i found is that the anticipation is worse than the
Speaker 4participation 100 100 that negative i call in my mind i call the guy dr no as long as i've lived dr no it's never gone away it's always told me why i shouldn't go to the gym why i shouldn't go on a run why i shouldn't do this shouldn't do that and i gotta tell him to shut up like i'm going and to your point it's action it's act
Speaker 1well yeah and and mac what you're talking about is um it's this idea of cognitive diffusion the thought is not the thinker the feelings not the feeler feelings are not facts and i learned this from ali love on the peloton she once said your first thought will be negative but your second third fourth thought doesn't have to be you're literally practicing cognitive diffusion where you're having a dialogue with yourself you're actually countering this negative inner dialogue one of the most profound books i read early in my journey was um it was by shirzad shermeen the book is called positive intelligence and what percent of human thoughts are negative according to the national science foundation have y'all heard majority
Speaker 490 percent someone
Speaker 1say a lot a lot yeah the the answer is uh is 80 percent and and 95 human thoughts are reoccurring so part of what this book teaches us is is if you can just recognize these negative thought patterns and and just be an observer and you know what advice would you give your friend what would you tell like one of your children like it's so you can be an observer and you can label it your inner judge your inner critic this isn't the real me this is my ancient brain this is my little colin who's still hurt you know and they're still hurting me and they're still hurting me and they're still hurting me and they're still hurting me and they're still hurting me and they're still hurting me safe it's all safety but if but what are you doing is you're countering and this is a phenomenal question by dr susan david a harvard psychologist wrote a phenomenal book called emotional agility who is in charge the thinker or the thought are we ready to get this deep today i don't know i'm throwing some i don't know i was getting
Speaker 3to be honest i was getting ready to sue my therapist because i thought you and her had a conversation before we got
Speaker 1out yeah so so it's it's this thought of you know is do you have a dog like who's walking who if the mind is untrained the thought will win if the mind is trained the thinker win you know j mac you're talking about you know you've you've learned how to be an observer and you've learned how to recognize unproductive thought patterns and then you're giving your brain a different place to go you're not falling to your first impulse your first fear you're actually called power in the pause go to truth what is in my control and then you're taking the next right step but you are just verbalizing out loud everyone's gonna have self-doubt everyone is gonna have fear but you cannot practice courage without fear being present what does the warrior and the coward have in common they're
Speaker 3both afraid they
Speaker 1both feel fear where the coward gives into the fear and runs away and avoids the warrior recognizes the fear and says my desire to serve is stronger than my fear i think
Speaker 4that's that last part's really important in sales calls and we have lots of sales people on the on the on this podcast i think that's a good point i think that's a good point i think that's a good point i found out you know when i was selling originally in my career i was always anxious and thinking about what i was going to say i started to figure out like when i would come out like i'm not really in the moment i'm not really in that conversation i'm not really listening intently on what that customer's saying because i was fearful i was anxious thinking about what i say what are they going to ask me that i don't know took me a long time to come and even today still i've tell myself that a lot of times not through fear but just be in the moment kind of look around be aware of your surroundings and just kind of listen intently and while you're telling your inner thoughts to to shut up because if i don't listen intently and i'm not here and i'm not in the moment i'm not in the customer conversation and therefore i'm a shitty
Speaker 1salesperson yeah this is uh this this concept that you aren't who you think you are you aren't who others think you are you are what you think other people think you are and the reality is i mean i just say that y'all are important people but like no one's going to bed thinking about your mistakes so we have this self-biasing it's called the spotlight effect where we think people are judging and critiquing what we're saying and doing the irony is they're actually doing it to themselves a great quote from megan rapinoe is your opponent is more nervous than you yeah wow
Speaker 4so you think you're the only
Speaker 1one that's nervous they're actually nervous too but even you're selling to a customer now is this podcast is this visual or is it just just audio both oh okay some people listen on youtube all right we're on youtube right now let's go i'm going to draw you something and i'll explain it to the people who aren't aren't visually watching so i want you to picture two circles the picture of the circle on the left is fully filled in this is you thinking about them thinking about you the circle on the right is this tiny little speck which represents how much they're actually thinking about you yeah right
Speaker 4yeah so fear is a lie
Speaker 1Fear thinks that it's all about you. Fear is all ego. And it's just not true. Fear is a liar. So I think one of the freeing things for me, freeing things for me, going through therapy and speech therapy, when I was in fundraising at Washington University, I was the coordinator of the grade W club. My job was to get former athlete alumni involved. We had dues, we had events, and I'd have to answer the phone. And I promise you, there was seasons and months I could not say, hello, WSU Athletic Foundation, Colin Harrison, like, I just could not make sound. And just a freeing thing for me was, no one speaks perfect. No one gives a shit. They're just calling about something mediocre. That's not that big of a deal. I'm hyping up that this is like this huge thing, but it's really not that big of a deal. They're worrying about their cat has an infection. I don't know how I just made that up. They're worried about, you know, they have to give a best man speech, you know, in two weeks and they don't know what they're going to say. They're not even thinking about me. So there's just something that was freeing about that. Just reassuring. The reality is like, everyone's worried about how they look. No one's going to critique you. After this podcast, you'll probably think about how did I sound intelligent in my questions? You're not even thinking about half the stuff I said. So we have the spotlight effect. We have the self-bias, and that is stopping a lot of us from being our true, authentic self. That stops Kavanaugh on the golf
Speaker 4course because we think everybody's just looking at us. Exactly. Shit. They don't care. Their next shot. They don't care.
Speaker 3That was very kind. That was kind the way you did that. Now I'm going to give my buddy.
Speaker 4You're welcome, Mr.
Speaker 3Kaplan. Colin, I'm going to give my buddy some love here. Very difficult time in my life a few years ago. And Johnny Mac shows up on my doorstep. And I won't go into a lot of detail. But, John, I don't know if you remember, but this was the theme of what you said to me. I had so much shame about something. And you're. You're direct. I've never forgotten it. And I never will forget it. Nobody. Nobody gives a crap. He used other words. Yeah. But he said, nobody gives a crap. And for some strange reason, if you're dealing with someone that would give a crap, then you don't want to be around them anyway. Right. And I've never forgotten that because the. Now you putting it together, Colin, for me, is that that's what goes on in the brain, is that what's driving us is how we think we're presenting ourselves or how instead of just being in ourselves. And that shows up in sales. And I think about something that somebody told me. I was always afraid of not having the answer. Because I, you know, Johnny and his infinite wisdom hired me to be, you know, I'd never sold software before. And I wasn't an engineer. And he said it would be a good idea for me to come over. And sell engineering and manufacturing software. And then not only that, but just lead people who already are selling it. And it was a little bit overwhelming at first. And then I realized that, you know, it's not the answer is not the power. It's the question that's the bigger power. And that was something I picked up early on in my sales career, which really helped me. And I always said that the answers typically are in the room. I got up in front of thousands of people at force management. We're talking of people asking me questions. And it's all impromptu, just like you do, probably, Colin. And people are screaming stuff out. And I always had the comfort of knowing the answers are always in the room. And then what I also wanted to do is I also wanted to limit my audience. Now, I'm a faithful person. So I would say an audience of one. And when I'm communicating with somebody, I just don't want to disappoint God. For me, that's my thing. I say I don't want to disappoint God. And so it's so freeing when I'm in a conversation or I'm presenting, and that's my audience, it's an easy thing. When the audience is 1,000 people looking at me, judging what I'm going to say and the innuendo, and I was always afraid of saying something stupid or saying something inappropriate. And you know how that can take off in a crowd. And, you know, create laughter and blah, blah, blah. But the simple things, based upon the story that you guys were just discussing, nobody cares. Nobody cares. You know, there's an old saying I don't want to, there's a billion of X population could give a damn. My father used to say that to me. And it's really, really powerful because, you know, it really doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter. You think it matters way more than they do.
Speaker 1And I've found in the areas of influence, because if you listen to this podcast, you're looking for, you know, how do I influence? How do I lead? How do I sell? How do I connect? And what I found is the person with nothing to prove has the most power. Very good. So good. Because if you have a commission breath, if you're seeking validation from someone else's opinion, if you need approval, you're going to conform. And I have Romans 12 too, tatted right here. Don't conform to the patterns of this world. Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. But part of that renewal is understanding that you're going to have some self-doubt. You're going to have some uncertainty. And when things are not clear, the brain creates stories. So it's that empowerment of like recognizing and then reconditioning, rewiring, going to your truth, going to your values, going to what I teach people to have anchor statements. Sean, you just verbalize out loud an anchor statement that, you know, of that thousand people, like no one cares or however you worded it. Like, you know, there's answers in the room. Like that was an anchoring thought to get your mind from that inner critic, that self-doubt. So if four out of five thoughts are negative and researched by Dr. Valerie Young, seven out of 10 adults suffer from self-doubt. I'm imposter syndrome. It's normal. That's what I'm trying to get across to everybody. It's, it's absolutely, it'd be weird if you did not, it'd be dangerous. If you didn't have some self-doubt and some uncertainty, you know, you'd be making some dumb decisions that would put you in dangerous scenarios.
Speaker 3Well, you're, you're being, you're saying it's so head on for me right now, because the people that don't have it, they're the worst sellers, Johnny. People that don't have the doubt that don't have the, that don't have the restraint that don't have the inner reflection that just are with no filter. They just talk. They're the worst sellers.
Speaker 1Yeah, because they're, because they're, they're afraid they have to be the loudest person. They have to prove to themselves and others because they lack that, that conviction. And they, they lack that understanding. Another wisdom gem I learned from Dr. Valerie Young is people fall confidence over competence. So you didn't have to have the right answer. You're posture, voice, and tone pace. You're not too, the kids call these days too thirsty. Like you're not too thirsty. You're able to just slow down and, and, and J Mac, like you said, to, to be present and, and to connect. And I think, you know what a great, let's just transition to an Oz method strategy to help lower fear, lower stress, connect better. Let's kind of maybe land the plane here and give something. But I think there's value in just awareness is the cure. A lot of times, because if you're not aware, you can't fix, you can't change, you can't find the pattern. So a lot of times awareness is a cure, but because I'm more coach oriented, I'm less, you know, esoteric academic. You know, I, I went back to get a second master's degree in sport and performance, you know, in this, in this space, you know, psychology. And I was like, I don't think that the curriculum designers ever been in a locker room or boardroom because nothing I'm learning here. It was transferable to, you know, speaking with a multimillion dollar conversation. It's very academic driven versus like real world. So I want to make this really real world and really useful for y'all. What I found to lower stress, to lower fear in selling environments is kind of what we talked about. It's, it's not about me. So my, my three step influence system, step one is to connect with curiosity. You know how freeing it is to not have to prove, to not have to, hello, my baby, hello, my darling, to like do a dog and pony show of like bells and whistles of your messaging and, you know, pricing. But to, to take my intention is to have empathy. My intention is to understand. My intention is to hear clearly. And you know how freeing that is, is that you don't have to perform. Your only job is to understand. Your only job is to connect before you correct context before content. There's something so freeing that you don't have to put on a show. Your first step of influence. having empathy and curiosity. Connect with curiosity because when you do that, I love this thought from Mary Poppins, well begun is half done. If you can gather the right insight, the goals, the challenges, where they're headed, where they've been, they're literally giving you the answers to the test. They're literally giving you everything you need. But because we're so insecure, we have to show what we know. We're showing up and throwing up. And there's this verbal vomit. Now the listener is turned off. They don't feel connected. They don't feel seen. So wouldn't you agree that it's kind of freeing that you don't have to perform your first step of behavior change in others is to connect before correct. Should we do another visual? Yeah. Yeah, sure.
Speaker 4Okay. So do the other two steps though too, right?
Speaker 1I mean, I know I'm still on step one. I'm still on step one. Yeah. So, so,
Speaker 4step one. So the top of the box is 12. The right side of the box is a three, the bottom six and the left-hand side of the box is a nine.
Speaker 1Okay. So some three likes this because it's the same visual, but watch this. Okay. So if you're at the bottom and you're six and you're looking up at that box, what image do you see inside the box? You're at the bottom. You see a three, correct. Now, if you're in the nine vantage point, what do you see in that box? Three. You see an M okay. Right. Yeah. But how many times I'm, I'm a six, I'm going into a conversation and all I can only see a three because my home office training, my limited experience in my role, I'm just projecting my vantage point without moving over here and getting really curious before I can persuade before I can change your, your mind. I need to see what's in your mind first. So a three would see a W a 12 would see an, an, an E. So if your desire really is to change behavior, if your desire is to sell, if your desire is to lead and persuade, oh my gosh, you're, you're projecting your small pinhole of a worldview before you really see where they, where they've been, what they're doing now, what their goals are, what their challenge is. So before you see a three, you see a W a 12 would see an E. So before you can convince, you need to connect. I love that. So, but you have to, but that's the starting point is the, all right, before I can make you think you can change, I have to get into your mind first, because remember, go back to mindset. Mindset is a conditioned set of beliefs that drive behavior. And it takes some time to unravel, unwind that worldview, that vantage point before you can see mine. So before I vomit my, my, my, my, my, my, my limited worldview, I need to see and understand your worldview. Now, an example of this in the 1800s, there is a hospital, I believe in, in Vienna that the mothers and babies were dying at an alarming rate. They're getting infections. Like there is a window of a several years where the babies and moms were all dying and the hospital was freaking out. Like no, one's going to want to come to our hospital. And they try to change these procedures in, in, in the, in the birthing room. The birthing suite and nothing was happened. They had a new, uh, hospital kind of director. And he was like, all right, I got to just go from start to finish what's happening. He followed the physicians where they were coming from to the birth wing. Guess where they were coming from
Speaker 3the morgue. They
Speaker 1were working with cadavers and bringing death and infection and bacteria without gloves, not washing his hands into the birth suite. He's like, you're right. Cap. Yeah. Uh, y'all, y'all, you need to wash your hands before you, you know, or there had to be a level of understanding and giving that backstory of understanding where they came from, what's happened before they could influence change. Now, when they wash hands, like birth, birth rates and went way up and deaths dropped. So that's just an example of like, all
Speaker 3right, they're coming from, you know, there's such a, there's such a good point here. Uh, Johnny and I had a guest on, I can't remember who said it, but it's so powerful. And with the gong calls and everything that we have now with transcripts, we can actually assess where we trying to be interesting or interested. And there's a huge correlation between the sellers that appear interested and are interested versus the ones that are trying to be interesting and continually trying to be interesting in a conversation. And I thought it's just a subtle play on words, but it's, it really stuck with me.
Speaker 1Yeah. And this is from old dead French to Voltaire. Don't judge a person by their answers, judge them by their questions. That's wisdom is you'll get, I think influence behavior change, but the right question is more than your own answer. And I just look at when I assess, you know, I was a national sales trainer. I would manage five States. There are so many aggressive, selfish sellers. What does that acronym spell? Yeah.
Speaker 4You're an ass.
Speaker 1Yeah. Yeah. But you know,
Speaker 4that that's interesting too, because at the end of any interview that I've done, I asked them, what questions do you have for me? And to your point, their questions tell me everything I need to know. And I'm like, the homework they did, how curious they are, deep thinkers. They are all of that stuff tells me so much about that.
Speaker 1And I can do a whole day seminar on, on curiosity and asking the right questions. But if there's maybe three, just slam dunk, you have to ask these questions. And now there's a level of depth you have to get to, to get there. It may not happen on the first call, but I found what I called the growth inverse. Growth inverse. Your height will mirror your depth. This is a law of nature. Your height, think of trees, think of, you know, buildings, your height, your connection, your reach is going to mirror your depth. So if you're staying surface level, you know, just the basic stuff, think about like you're with your father or, you know, a child, if you're not deeply connected, you don't have a longevity, you don't have trust, you don't have loyalty. So if you're not willing to go deep, your depth will mirror your height, your height will mirror your depth. So if you're not willing to go deep to seek vulnerability, the facts, honesty, their first answer is bullshit. Cause you haven't gotten in there to really earn their trust to get to that real truth. So it's going to take some time. It's going to take a lot of vulnerability. It's going to take a while. It's going to work. It's not, this is called targeted coaching, targeted influence. My last stop in pharmaceuticals was in oncology. Instead of chemotherapy, just destroying your entire body. There's now cell therapy, targeted therapy. They're literally going right to the cell and it takes some diagnostic work to get to the right mix of medicines. They're therapeutically to get to that, you know, cell versus destroying everything. So I think a lot of us, man, be a professional. Don't be an amateur, be a professional, get the right insight, exactly what they're experiencing. Now, the skill is they're not going to give it to you right away. That's the skill because there's so many people in our industry that have diminished trust that are selfish sellers. So you kind of have to earn that trust and unthaw what they've been conditioned to believe about you and about this industry. So there's some, there's some nuance there. Now, the second step, all right, we got the first one. That's a good one. That's a power. Really good. Pretty well.
Speaker 4Yeah. Really good.
Speaker 1So again, this, I want to simplify my job as a consultant coach is my passion is to study, study, study, study, research, research, research, find the patterns and simplify them so we can scale them across an entire industry. We can scale it commercially. We can sell as an enterprise tech sales team. I got you. This is, but this is, this applies to parenting. This applies to you and your, your, your bestie or your boo want to pick a restaurant. I mean, it doesn't matter what we're talking about. This is influence. So the second step, once you've connected with curiosity, you've gathered a few core fundamentals. Things is why are you doing what you're doing? What's your goal for this endeavor? What's your goal? Like, what do you want? Do you truly know what they want? Or do you projecting what they want? And then what are some challenges you're facing? And then what are there? You know, where's some challenges. And then before you transition to step two, I love to just ask this question. Anybody is in that, in that curiosity phase before we get to step two is a great, a great collaborative question to ask once you've uncovered a goal and a challenge is you pause for a moment, just to let it kind of marinate a little bit, you know, just slow it down. And then you lean in. All right. It sounds like your goal is this and your obstacle is this. Then the You do. what are you doing for that and you shut the f up and let them just unpack you know what they're currently doing to achieve how they're measured how they're ranked how they're evaluated what their revenue goals are what you know because i think we're projecting our like comp plan now i gotta sell x amount of but they have they're evaluated by something too you know they're human so like how are you measured how are you evaluated what are your goals well what are things impeding your ability to achieve how you're about then makes them the hero not you well what are you doing for that and then that just completely shifts the energy and you get to listen to what they're doing and then a good follow-up is well how's that working or areas like you want to fix that one and then just get your foot in the door i think a big miss in sales that they try to get it all just get your foot in the door just have a reason to come back have a reason to have to be seen as a as a collaborator you not someone who's trying to convince now once you've gathered that you've earned the right to get to the second level which is to clarify with story and you cannot tell the right story unless you get the answers you need to choose the right adventure to pick the right example whether it's a social proof whether it's a client very similar to theirs whether it's our own internal story but have you ever played madly lives ever think you have kids or you know folks mad lives is a game where above there is like some verbs some adverbs some pronouns some you know different words that you just randomly pick and then there's a story underneath it and then you plug and play the words into the story and it's usually funny the reason why you connect first is you gather their goals their challenges where they grew up where they went to school what's important to them then you utilize those words those examples to flow that into the right story and when you tell
Speaker 3your point is when you're telling a story they their story their story has to be in your story
Speaker 1yes yes uh one of my favorite storytelling teachers is donald miller his name is donald miller he has a um a company in a book called the story brand he says in influence and sales they're the hero not you yeah they're the hero not you so there are three dimensions of influence dimension one is talking about yourself dimension two is known the market dimension three that the most vivid experiential way of communicating is you're using their words and their lived experiences as part of that story the reason why maybe if you sell tell like your company's story like it's not as impactful because they don't relate to it and i do
Speaker 3it's not as impactful because i don't know if they're going to share it with you and i'm not going to share it with you but i'm going to share it with you and i'm going to share it with you and i'm going to share it with you and i'm going to share it with you and i'm going to share it with you and i'm going to share it with you and i'm going to share it with you and i'm going to share it with you and i'm going to share it with you and i'm going to share it with you and i'm going to share it with you and i'm going to share it with you and i'm going to share it with you and i'm going to share it with you and i'm going to share it with you and i'm going to share it with you and i call it participating in your own rescue the only way you can get a customer to participate in their own rescue is to ask them real live examples of their experiences with what you're talking about so have you ever had trouble with you know latency and customer says yes you're not learning anything so you you know i don't know how what the percentage is but let's say 70 of the sellers will say okay they got problems with latency and i'm building my now i'm going to get my story because i'm going to talk to them about challenges with latency and security or what have you but i'm not getting any i'm not getting any of their story that's where you get it in the curiosity phase so i have to ask the follow-up can you give me an example tell me about a time when and uh i i think we got we're gonna for sure i want you to continue but just know this everybody listening colin we're gonna have you back and i think we could grab some of these johnny like just curiosity itself since we talk about it so much and and maybe get your maybe get your thinking there but keep going yeah
Speaker 4listening i'm i'm inviting that colin to my sales kickoff in general well
Speaker 1i i also i want it because i know we got to wrap things up but so step step one is is connect with curiosity but that's just being a good human yeah right and it's like i can't do my job effectively unless i know some things about you so this is i don't want this to be 20 questions like you feel like i'm creepy i i really value this relationship and i i can't build the house of your dreams unless i know what you're doing you know what you're doing you know what you want i i can't so i'm not going to guess stop being a mind reader stop projecting be present and and tailor the offer to their their their lived experience so researched by psychologist at stanford dr jennifer aucker she found this is a mic drop stat that when you attach a story to a statistic it's 22 times more memorable yeah there's a podcast emotion that was great hope you had a good time if that's the only thing you got so it's kind of like man if you're if facts tell stories sell you know jesus used parables i mean you can go across history and like how do you take something complex and make it simple use a story story uh help help things be more simple they help what i call simulation the listener can simulate their emotions their little their experiences as if they're in that environment but the third one is the memory i mean the the story tongue is the strongest to memory yeah the memory i call this the spouse test after you had like a presentation selling conversation eight hours went by they go home have dinner with their spouse what'd you learn today you've implanted exactly what you want them to know and do because it's through a story and it's memorable and there's emotion uh the laws of influence are ethos pathos logos ethos is this person credible pathos is our emotion um and then last one ethos is this is credible so pathos is credibility uh no hold on ethos is credibility pathos is emotion logos is logic logic and of the three the strongest is is emotion now the third step once we've clarified once we've compelled and gathered some information curiosity because we care i'm curious because i care honestly and then once i've gathered that i'm going to use storytelling i can quote lots of research on it like stories are going to be the most powerful vivid way to get inside the mind to make it stick in memorable um but the third step is to collaborate on a needs-based solution so your ask you know and sales well did you close them like that no one wants to be closed people don't like to be sold but they love to buy so once you've got you know the their needs their background their goals whatever they're going through their challenges really it's challenging they're not going to be sold but they love to buy people buy problems versus solutions so you got to get to that problem first and then what's the story in our archive that you've learned that you've gathered that you're going to pick the right be a story collector story hunter weave their experience and their goals within what we provide and when the two most powerful words of storytelling are imagining you and that gets to that collaborative place where you collaborate on these based solution the offer is tailored to their goal and their problem this sounds so simple guys this sounds so simple when i explain it like this but we don't operate that way we make it so complicated and in that collaborative space make the next step so simple and so easy it's not more fuel it's less friction a confused buyer doesn't buy complexity is the enemy to execution but let's make sure that when we do that ask or advance that call to do a free trial or do a deep dive discover whatever you want to do let's make sure that the ask is tailored to a specific problem or a goal that they have so the next time you face or we hear this again let's do this so then you get to lead them in that process but you get to collaborate with them in that process man we have the same end user like we are we're on the same team i'm not your adversary i'm your partner yes we're going to collaborate
Speaker 4powerful powerful powerful colin you got
Speaker 3to come back dude will you come back
Speaker 1yeah i do but i gotta go pick the kids up at the school bus so yeah so i do have to go
Speaker 4yeah if on this podcast over 600 000 unique unique listeners and i'm sure people are listening and typically sales kickoffs happen in a lot of these tech companies now in their year in january but i got to believe a lot of people are listening and they want you to come and be their their keynote speaker how do we get a hold of you where do we find you talk about how we get a
Speaker 1hold of you yeah i would say uh easiest is um instagram and linkedin at colin henderson two l's my website is thecolinhenderson.com but i think just an easy win right now um is to keep listening to this amazing podcast with these great humans who love and serve that's why they're doing it because they're trying to you know i i feel like um going back to my origin story is that was for this yeah we've all been through some challenges some hardships and that was for the work that we're doing we wouldn't have this curiosity this this passion uh if we didn't go through some hardships now we're going to transfer our pain in into your power and victory goes to the vulnerable so if you can do one thing and just say yes to yourself is go to amazon check out the oz method the oz that's the a classic story that you know dorothy and the scarecrow tin man line those are all characters that represent a different trait that you need to adopt and learn to create behavior change and to help people achieve their goals that's the whole journey is there a team helping them achieve their goals there's no fighting it's it's collaboration it's courage it's teamwork um so you can listen to it on spotify and audible so that would be just a great place just to learn and i've had some amazing global companies getting so much great feedback so much so much great case studies one leader told me for a fortune hunter company this is a sales leader's bible so i was like oh my gosh that's awesome and we've also gotten feedback on like sales record revenue by using these uh this process that we're that we're sharing so um super super grateful thank you colin
Speaker 4henderson amazing thank you john kaplan thanks to everyone for listening to another episode of the revenue builders podcast thanks for listening to
Speaker 2today's episode if you enjoy the content please subscribe rate and review the show to help us reach more people this show is brought to you by force management where we help companies improve sales performance executing the growth strategy at the point of sale check out forcemanagement.com for more information
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