The influencer era is dead. What's next?

If you had to make a movie, said an Arkansas, what genre would it be? They get tornadoes there, right. Those are some of my favorite. I love Twister. I love Twisters. So I would say, "Tornado Action Movie." Mmm. Okay, that is a good one. That's a really really good one. Wait, I think I decided mine. It's a rom-com called, "I Arkansas You From Across the Room." Oh, that's perfect. Right, it's all. That's perfect. You've won project re-net today. Well, today's story takes us to Conway, Arkansas, where 120 social media live streamers of all ages and backgrounds descended on Hendrick's College, a private liberal arts institution that for five days earlier this summer had a new name, "Streamer University." Veteran streamers became professors and hopefuls for across the nation were the bright-eyed students there to learn how to make their content creator career aspirations come true. And of course, to stream every living second of their experience to a steadily growing online audience. And just like with real college, there were standout students. There were high jinx. The quote, "students even stayed in dorms and routinely skipped class." You couldn't tell the mastermind behind it all. Viral Twitch streamer Kai Sinat that he hadn't struck content creation gold. According to data pulled by a Streamlabs partner, the second year event gained nearly 58 million watch hours. 12.5 million followers and almost 40,000 self-paid subscribers. Wow. Now, it may look like funny games, but behind the live stream scavenger hunts and content classes is a real turning point in how we consume social media and how brands intend to get our attention, whether we know it or not. To get into that shift and what it means for our experience online, I'm here with Rebecca Jennings, features writer for New York Magazine and a Summer Conte, senior reporter at Digital Day Magazine. Welcome to "It's Been a Minute." Thanks for having us. Thank you. Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Loose and you're listening to "It's Been a Minute" from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. And a reminder, if you love "It's Been a Minute," which from the sweet comments y'all have been leaving, it sounds like maybe you do. Be sure to follow or subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast app. That way you get new episodes the moment they drop. Okay, Alyssa, you've described Stream University as more than a viral event. It feels like a blueprint for the future of entertainment. What makes you say that? Well, I would say from like a branding perspective. It's been notoriously and historically difficult for brands to kind of break into streaming. They know they stream for a very long time. It used to be rooted in gaming. It was kind of hard to find different ways to break in that felt natural. They can't do an ad read in the middle of a live stream because it just immediately sets off alarm bells for their viewers. So now that there's this sort of clipping economy and we have companies that hire people to clip streamers and post them all over other social media platforms, you get this new way for brands to just kind of show up in the background or be this sort of persistent shadow in this content. And then obviously what's really interesting from an entertainment perspective is these hours eight, nine, 10 hour long streams can be broken up into much more palatable short form content and posted anywhere and everywhere. So you don't even need to be sitting down and watching this person for eight hours. You'll inevitably see it on on TikTok or or X at some point while you're scrolling, which is fascinating. Wow, wow, wow. We will get back to the clipping economy in a minute because I want to get more into that. But first Rebecca, you write that we're living through a quote, influencer recession. Why do you think audiences suddenly stopped responding to the aspirational lifestyle content? That's basically dominated social media for the last decade. Yeah, absolutely. So I think what's happening now is that there are just simply too many people wanting to work in the attention economy and attention is a supply and demand business. At some point, there is going to be too much supply. And so what we're seeing is a lot of these lifestyle influencers that, you know, five, ten years ago would have you know, with enough consistency, if they post something that looks aspirational and cool enough, people will find their audience. But now that kind of everyone has to be everything to everyone and everyone has to be reaching new for you pages all the time on every single platform. What worked five years ago is not working anymore. And individuals are competing against, like Elissa said, these people that are paying discord members, you know, thousands of dollars potentially to just spam social websites with clips of a certain podcast, a concert, a movie trailer, anything. And so one person who's just making like your average content that a lot of other people are making is never going to be able to sift through the noise and reach a potential fan. So it's just a lot harder to make a career now at this than it used to be. It just sounds like a lot to contend with, like just seems like there's just more content than ever. And so now it's like people have to figure out new ways to sort of be heard above the usual din of voices. Yeah, exactly. And so you'll see people like gravitate towards more extreme stunts or rage baiting or anything they can do to make people like stop scrolling. The streaming economy is a huge part of that. There's now so many people that want to be the next Kaisenat that they are resorting to like ever more insane things to get that attention that he was able to build because he was one of the first people back in the streaming boom in the early 2020s. Okay, so I feel like this fits in really well with the idea of the clipping economy. Alyssa, you talk about the clipping economy as like a turning point for live streaming. It feels very connected to sort of like this escalation across the board of how much content people are supposed to be pumping out and how aggressively they're trying to reach people. Can you explain to me what exactly the clipping economy is? Like why has it changed the relationship between creators and the audiences that consume their content? I mean obviously a huge issue is the length of a live stream is just it's very difficult for someone to tune in for that for the entirety of it. I mean that's fair. And so there are people who kind of figured out that this was a growth issue that this was an engagement issue for people who live stream. There's a young guy named Anthony Fujiwara. He launched clipping. The company called Clipping in 2025. And he's largely the reason why we know who Clavicular is. The controversial streamer who hits himself in the face with a head. Oh, yeah. To make himself look more handsome. Right. You know his company earned like 7.7 million in sales as of like October of last year. What? Yes. This is a massive, massive economy that also in many ways even though they're making that much money, the cost of individually hiring one of their clippers to make content for you and push it out is is often lower than a traditional marketing push. But are you always are you always paying someone or is it like fans or is it just sometimes like random bots? Sometimes it's a super parasocial thing. It's someone who's already in the community who really likes a streamer who wants to get that streamer's attention. So they they they clip really good clips for them and they share them on on acts or on TikTok. And they hope that they'll repost them. You know a lot of the times in these creator communities there are people who want to be creators and they want to build themselves up within that community to be like recognized by that creator whether it's verbally during a live stream a shout out for them gifting subs or saying something in the chat or it's by making content off of that creator's content. I mean it is this really kind of crazy sort of or a Boris of like content far being that you can just have people in your community that are dedicated and like you as a creator or in many cases are hate watching you and trying to clip you out of context to post things that make you look bad. Okay so let's say one of the reasons you argue that streamers feel more authentic than traditional influencers is because viewers witness sort of like these messy unscripted moments. We're already seeing streamers like Kaisa not like I show speed like become celebrities in their own way. I mean I knew I show speed was famous. I didn't know he was like famous famous until the World Cup and I was like oh okay like the way that he was placed within like the World Cup performances I'm like okay so I guess you have as much impact right now is like Madonna and Shakira like I guess BTS I guess that was so wild but I don't know I mean like they can't really go outside without being recognized. How long do you think that authenticity is sustainable if they're like celebrities at this level already? I mean speed is it is kind of his own beast not to say another streamer's name there but I show speed is sort of like he really is just consistently going to different countries and like there are people who follow him like there's a guy who will follow him from country to country to get into his live stream in the background I mean this happens to a lot of I mean if money to follow I show speed from country to country I would not be worried. I'd be going on vacation. I would just be going on vacation. I would be going on vacation and spending my money and counting it. Yeah I think with every creator there's a moment where they get big enough and then their core audience or part of their core audience will turn on them for like no longer being authentic or relatable or something but I think now maybe we're at the point where like that even is a little polyannish to assume that like people are now like maybe even rooting for their favorite creator to like go nuclear and sort of pivot or whatever, because I think it's now just sort of assumed that, once you get big enough, you will have to pivot to something else. Kai Senat, who's known for these marathon streams, just took like a eight month break to like work on other projects and mental health stuff, like you know, anyone would wanna break after that. But it doesn't mean he's any less influential. Exactly. So like there is a limit and like especially women streamers or queer streamers have run into issues where you know, they're streaming IRL in real life and they get people who show up and wanna start stuff, who harass them, who refuse to leave them alone. This happened two years ago with a group of women streamers who are streaming IRL together. That's all risk. And then on top of that, obviously when you're live streaming, again, you have these people who are wanna be in the background because maybe they'll get clipped. Maybe they'll get clipped for doing something stupid in your live stream. So I think streaming and live streaming in general and the kinds of celebrity that it's pulled in now, there is always that it feels like it's on the precipice of when does this go too far? So now we're like increasingly rewarding bad behavior from people trying to claw their way up, the content creator letter. - Coming up after the break. - If you're a media company, for example, and you're not giving people something that they really cannot get anywhere else, or if you're just like, yeah, doing the same thing as anyone else, you have no chance because the ad market's dead. - Stick around. (upbeat music) - I wanna talk a little bit more about sort of how this attention that all these creators are getting can be profit from. Like, most people are used to getting their ads in the form of interruptions to their content. We're used to getting commercial breaks, we're used to getting ad sponsorships. That's one way that we're used to seeing influencers make money off of all of our attention. But listen, in your conversation with our producer, Cray Antonio, you pointed to how the model is changing to something much more discreet. How so? - So already, brands I think working with creators have had to sort of relinquish a little bit of control. Creators build their brands, they're very successful because they are the way that they are. And at this point, the successful creators are so successful, they'll walk away from a brand deal if it's asking them to do something that they feel like won't ring true with their audience. They're at that point now where they hold the keys in many ways, which is crazy. When you think about how much money goes into this economy. So what happens though, with something like streaming, is obviously initially streaming being associated with video games. It was really only like video game peripherals and video game companies that felt comfortable, you know, advertising there. Then as just chatting, which is really just could be anything, you know, IRL streaming or people doing political streams or people just talking about celebrities, all of that stuff gets under that umbrella. And that's now the most popular genre of streaming, which is not even gaming anymore. So brands want, yes, brands want to get involved this in this way, obviously. But like to your point, a streamer stopping in the middle of a two hour stream while they're having a conversation to say like, and by the way, this is why I like, insert lip balm here. - Well, it's a little too true, Michelle. - It's too much. And there, especially with streamers, I think almost even more so than other creators. The Paris social connection is very intense. And they read something that it's not normal to their streamer very quickly and it'll turn them off fast. But what brands are recognizing with these, especially with these like themed streams that are in places that are streamathons, or they take place over several days, and they're well thought out. I mean, Kaisenot put a lot of effort into building this entire program out. What they recognize they can do is they can just be in the background. - Go on, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go. - They can be all eating zacks bees while they're chasing each other around the hallway, or Ludwig, one of the creator professors, who gave one of the best lessons in how to grow as a creator, which everyone who wants to grow as a creator is going to watch, is giving that lesson with a giant red bull fridge behind him the entire time. And those clips are getting clipped and shared and getting millions of views. And now, it doesn't look like Ludwig saying, go drink red bull, but it's there, and it's in the background, and it's so successful that some companies that were activating a streamer university were paying for clippers to clip stuff with their cotton in the background. So it's really this like incredibly interesting flywheel that we've now sort of seen spin off, and I don't think it would be happening if it weren't for the clipping economy. - Wow. - Oh my gosh, 'cause then, right, 'cause then also to be out, brands get even more impressions than just the original sort of hit a content. It's like, it can be clipped, re-clipped, reshared, and like even unofficially clipped, and just make it further than, it's like they're paying for, it's like they're paying for way fewer impressions. - And it's pennies, 'cause there's, - 'cause there's, - That you would pay for like a full-blown marketing push or ad spend on any of the platforms, it's pennies. So you do the initial amount to be in the background of streamer university, and then you're paying pennies on the dollar to make sure that that stuff gets shared and be shared, I mean, I don't know. - Right, 'cause the fandom doesn't on their own. - Exactly. - And then usually the streamer will do it. That's so wild. Wild, you know, we've talked on the show many times over the past four years about how we have been hurtling toward a media environment where everyone from journalism institutions to small independent creators are competing for clicks and views. And oftentimes the winners of loudest people, with the most outrageous things to say or do, it kind of feels very safe to say that we're like, no longer just hurtling towards that environment. We are fully there. Where do you both see us going from here? - I think it's one of those things like the regular economy. It's very like K-shaped, like the habs will continue to have even more of the tiny sliver of the top and the have-nots will continue to have even less of that. The same thing is happening in the creator economy, like everywhere, like people that have already amassed to huge audience are able to leverage that for brands, but the sort of middle class of creators and the like new coming class of creators have a lot harder of time doing that. And so if you're a media company, for example, and you're not giving people something that they really cannot get anywhere else, or if you're just like, yeah, doing the same thing as anyone else, you have no chance because the ad market's dead. - Yeah, and middle, like most creators are not making a living off of content creation, like Rebecca saying, like it really will continue to be like the bottom funnel kind of creators, which are the creators that get involved in like programs for retail companies, where they're just kind of like making a ton of content that is either used or not used by the company, and they usually get like rewards, or they get a little bit of kickback on affiliate spend, which is like target, Starbucks, like that gap. They all do stuff like that. And that's something that you can make a little bit of side money with, obviously. And I think that's gonna continue happening because brands recognize that the reach, and the engagement that they get from creators is obviously stronger and stronger than traditional ad buys would. And that gap is I think widening. That's all stuff that like, I don't know if trickle down creator economics works, or if we're just gonna keep seeing millionaire creators who have figured it out, that have become like celebrities, it's a really interesting and bizarre time, I think, because companies are spending more and more on this. And creator economy is growing, the ad spend going into that is going to continue to grow. But it's really a matter of like, yeah, is the pie going to get bigger for creators? Or is it just going to get bigger for the ones that are already making a ton of money? (upbeat music) - That, that, that is an interesting question. And I guess we have to get that together to talk about that once we see how that turns out. So I appreciate having you both on to discuss that today, Alyssa Rebecca, thank you both so much. - Thank you. - Thank you so much for having us. (upbeat music) - That was Rebecca Jennings, features writer for New York Magazine, and Alyssa Mercante, senior reporter at DigiDay. This episode of it's been a minute was produced by - Corey Antonio Rose. - This episode was edited by Nina Patuck. - Our supervising producer is - Sheriff Vincent. - Our executive producer is - Barton Gurdwood. - Our VP of programming is - Yolanda Sanguini. - All right, that's all for this episode of it's been a minute from NPR. I'm Brittany Luz. Talk soon.