The inevitability of SubwayTakes, and the Chinese indie film that became a surprise box office hit

So, quick summer recap. Heat waves, data leaks, AI hacks, folding phones, and a viral spinally challenged record. Yeah, I think that covers it, right? I'm Thomas Germain. I'm Jess Maddox, and the interface is back from its summer break. New season, new co-host, same deep dives into the tech that's shaping our world and our lives. So, before AI wipes out all of humanity. Allegedly. Join us for the interface. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. Hey, can I ask you, are you watching Subway Takes? It's that YouTube talk show that's all over our feeds. Honestly, I'll tell you this. I will watch every clip every single time that it comes up. It is just people riding the New York Subway, giving their hot takes. And whether you 100% agree or 100% disagree, Subway Takes now has its first Emmy nomination. So, you can't ignore it. I'm Ellen Meade, I'm No Mahmoud, and this is commotion. Catherine Venn, Aaron Donkin, Jay Smooth, sat down with me to get into it. Here's our conversation. Hello. Listen, if you guys don't mind, I'm going to start by playing you guys my favorite Subway Takes. Is that okay with you? All right. Let's do it. So, what's your take? If I say nice to meet you and you say we've met, that is a violent act against me. 100% disagree. Are you serious? Honesty is the best policy. If you tell me that we've met and you remind me in this way with such a loathsome disdain, you are embarrassing us both. You are embarrassing me for not remembering you. And frankly, you're embarrassing yourself or not being memorable. That's the one and only Hannah Imbinder. Catherine, I feel like this is a classic Subway Takes. Could you just talk a little bit more about what this show is for people who have not watched it? Sure. So, this is a comedian, his name is Karim Rahma and he is Subway Takes. He has a show where he sits. It appears to be completely authentic. It looks like a classic vertical video style show. He holds the little microphone that you may be now quite familiar with. And he is sitting next to somebody who is generally unidentified in the course of the video. It's just him and somebody who is sitting next to you, there's no like, hey, I'm here with whoever. You sort of begin in media race with this person and your comedian or celebrity or politician or whoever it is says, some hot take, some very briefly stated and ideally something that somebody could reasonably disagree with. And then the host says 100% agree or 100% disagree and then they have a short conversation about who is craziest and why. And it takes place on the New York Subway and that's Subway Takes. Like a lot of vertical, viral vertical formats, it is a very, very simple idea and its success is entirely in the execution. I just say that when you say that the microphone that you were familiar with now, it's because it's attached to a metro card. So like, it's attached to a little microphone to a metro card and it looks like a person is talking to a metro card, but they're not. They're talking to a little microphone that's attached to it, even though they have discontinued metro cards. That does not matter. Catherine, which makes belief, it's television a little, Jay, what is the appeal of Subway Takes to you? Like, why do you think the show is so popular? Well, I think it taps into this sort of primal appeal of debate content that a lot of media has been realizing is a really surefire way to lock people in to the point that like a network like ESPN is evolved from being about sports news coverage to just basically brose yelling at each other all day. I think there's so much content like that nowadays, but whereas a lot of it feels really kind of toxic, like it's really tapping into our desire to be outraged, or it'll be something really over the top like these Jubilee videos that are like one liberal debates, 20 right wing lunatics. This I think Subway Takes taps into that formula, but in a way, it feels low stakes and good nature. You know, we're never discussing, hardly ever discussing anything too contentious. You don't have a sense that either side feels that strongly about it is kind of tongue and cheek and it's sort of a fun way to engage with that debate dynamic in a way that still feels like friendly and positive. Yeah. It's rarely like a Subway Takes are going to be like, I think the state should provide all medical care for every single citizen like that's not going to be a good example. And when people try that, it usually falls flat. Catherine Subway Takes is on YouTube, but it's DNA feels to me like very rudy to sort of traditional network late night shows. I feel like this comes up in a in this clip that you mentioned earlier, the host at Carina Brahma. He's talking about the criticism about Subway Takes that he hears a lot. One of the biggest criticism of the show, they're like, have regular New Yorkers on. And I'm like, I do a standup comedian in New York to me is a regular person. That's a working class creative. Sure, I could have a plumber on the show or an electrician on the show, but they don't need to be on the show. It's not helpful to their career, really. There are plenty of other shows that cater to the fully regular New Yorker, but my show's a talk show and in talk shows you book guests that have a reason to be on the show. My show is a talk show. That's the thing that he just said. Catherine, Carina sort of say that the audience wants him to interview regular people. They're expecting something different from what the thing that they would see if they like, you know, tune into like Jimmy Fallon or something. But Carina is actually saying, I kind of am like Jimmy Fallon and to feed the beast. I do actually need to book celebrities who have something to promote. What do you, what do you, what do you make of that position? It's a really complicated position that he is set for himself. I think he is correct that he is functionally a talk show. I do think there's something fairly disingenuous about saying that plumbers don't need to be on subway takes as if nobody else lives in the world of marketing and promotion and social media doesn't exist for other industries outside of comedy. In fact, the reality of that is a comedian is the kind of person who is good at subway takes. And it is the kind of talk like regular people are not necessarily good at entertaining on talk shows. And there is there are bookers and producers whose job is to make sure that somebody who is not going to do a do be entertaining on television does not get put on television very often. The same thing is true for subway takes, although I am quite sympathetic to the stance that working comedians are middle class workers in New York City. That is very true. These are people who do also need promotion. The truth of what he is saying there is that subway takes is existing in the same place that a traditional talk show has in the past and traditional talk shows continue to right now. But there are still major important differences between what he does and the talk show forum notably that the people never say their names or what they are promoting. Yes. I don't believe this. Last year, I think it was last year, maybe the year before that, Vanity Fair ran this cover. The cover was The New Late Night and it had Emilie De Moldenberg who is the host of Chicken Shop Date. It had Sean Evans who is the host of Hot Ones and it had Kareem Kareem from subway takes was also on the cover of this new late night sort of spread that they had. When you look at the six original series that YouTube really promoted for Emmy nominations, four of them involve content featuring celebrities including subway takes and including Hot Ones I should say. I feel like that says actually just a lot about the type of content that is being pushed our way and what we like to see online will eventually will we have everything eventually be about celebrities online. Is that how you're receiving this, Jay? Yeah. I mean, I think on platforms like YouTube, Twitch, TikTok, there's there's a really healthy ecosystem of homegrown YouTube stars, Twitch stars, TikTok stars that I won't think I don't think they'll get knocked out of the box by mainstream celebrities anytime soon. But I think this does reflect that what will be digestible to old media gatekeepers will be content that has some of those old school mainstream celebrities in it. And I think this reflects more that old media gatekeepers are going to need to adapt to what we've been doing and that will sort of be their entry point into doing it rather than them usurping and taking taking over what we're doing in our space. I'll tell you this, look, when I was looking at that, I was looking at that cover again this morning about vanity fair cover with the new late night host and Careem's again sitting right in the middle. I wouldn't have guessed that he'd be the first one to get an Emmy nomination. Does that surprise you in any kind of way? I think it does, but I do think the Emmy's like the Oscars, like all of these prestige award bodies are in a position where just like celebrities and late night and sort of YouTube gatekeepers, they need to stay relevant, they need to be awarding and recognizing the things that many, many millions of people are actually watching, as well as whatever television shows that they that are these older, smaller communities of people who continue to watch traditional linear TV. So it is in the Emmy's best interest, Frank. to find ways of rather than trying to exclude those people, bring them in and be like, "Look, we recognize this too. This continues to be part of who we are because otherwise they will lose total relevance." I will say, Jay, Karim has called the subway takes getting an Emmy nomination, a quote, a milestone for the entire creator community. I don't know how you feel about that comment, but you're someone who was a part of that first wave of successful YouTube creators. We're talking about as far back as 2007. You're posting stuff about hip-hop, posting stuff about political commentary. What strikes you the most when you see where YouTube is today in terms of being able to get this nomination? Yeah, there are so many differences. I mean, when I got started around 2007, it was much more about making a direct organic connection with your audience. If they like your content, they hit subscribe and they keep watching your other videos. Nowadays, it's much more controlled by this arcane process of getting the approval of the algorithms so that when you press the subscribe button, that does not at all mean YouTube. We'll show you that other channels videos. The algorithm just decides what it thinks you want to see. That's set up this system where people like Mr. Beast can just kind of scientifically figure out how the game, the algorithm, and go viral every time. So it's a very different game nowadays, but even with those new complexities, the other thing that really strikes me is just how big and well-established this whole YouTube media world is where you have multiple generations of strictly homegrown YouTube stars. There's another side industry of YouTube commentators that only comment on the latest gossip and news of YouTube stars and never even discuss Hollywood actors or anything like that. So I think, again, this nomination reflects much more how Hollywood will keep needing to adapt to what we've got going on in these new media spaces much more than it reflects our work being validated by their approval. I'm really interested in that. Maybe this is a good place for us to close out, Catherine, because some way it takes us nominated for an Emmy, the category's best short form comedy drama or a variety series. It is arguably the biggest nomination for YouTube since it started pushing pretty hard for Emmy nominations a few years ago. Why doesn't Emmy matter for YouTube series, do you think? The Emmy matter is more for the Emmys than it does for the YouTube series. I think this is the kind of move that obviously YouTube is delighted to have YouTube and new media do still want places like Snapchat actively are courting these kinds of awards. There is meaningful sponsorship money and prestige and it then tells publicists that it's safe to send their clients. They're all of this is strong, but what's more important is that the Emmys are making this argument that they are relevant and that they understand what people actually like and what people are actually watching. I really appreciate your time. You guys, this has been wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on the show today. Thank you. Thank you. Catherine Vedairna, who's a critic at Vulture and the host of the TV is Good Podcast, she was in New Jersey. Jay Smooth is a veteran hip-hop broadcaster and culture critic based in New York. The Emmy Awards are handed out on September 14th. In a world where the news feels bigger, louder, and harder to make sense of, Canadians need more than headlines. Hi, I'm Karen C. Olin, news reporter and host of the big story podcast from world shaping events to the everyday stories that spark debate. My team and I will explain what matters and why it matters to you. We're here to help you make sense of the news and give you the context you need for those kitchen table conversations. Trusted, Canadian-focused, curious. Listen to the big story wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, my name is Abdul Mahmoud and this is commotion and look, it's always exciting when an indie project does better than anyone expected. That is the case for the latest blockbuster film coming out of China. It's called Dear You Rachel Hoseyn. She's here to talk about it. Rachel's good to see your friend. Hello, Ellen. Hello. Listen, Dear You's a family drama. It doesn't have a lot of big names attached to this thing without spoiling too much. If you don't mind, if you can manage that, what is this movie about? It is a wide spanning family epic drama that crosses time and space and all those good things. You have a mother who as a young woman, as a young woman with three kids, her husband went off. He was trying to avoid conscription for the Civil War at the time and like a lot of men then moved into Southeast Asia. Now, she was getting correspondence from him little by little here and there and then one day just a picture of him with another woman and four children. So she assumes, well, he's not coming back and he's left me for another woman. However, not the case. I'm not going to go any further than that. It's not the case, though, and the movie kind of it spells out explores exactly what was going on exactly during that time for him and what it means for her and her family. I really didn't know. It was like, oh, there's something coming after the however and then you just were like, and I won't tell you the thing. No. Okay, if you won't spoil the whole thing for me, can you at least tell me what did you think of a movie? It's not my kind of movie. It's very melodramatic. Like these types of films tend to be very, very melodramatic. It's just not my cup of tea, but I respect it and I appreciate it quite a bit for what it stands for, what the release means about it around it, the discussions around it. I think are so interesting. But yeah, it's not a movie I'm going to like pop on a random Tuesday. You don't find melodrama common because that is the thing that you randomly pop on. No, not really. Not really. Not really. I would say it's like a lot of movies coming out of mainland China are Mandarin dear you features mostly to child speaking characters. Why is that remarkable? It's kind of like in English speaking world when we're all doing like think of when Minari came out and that was an American film that it was in Korean. I was like, whoa, this is like that, but in a very different way where movies coming out of China, I would say 99% of them. They are in Mandarin and the movies coming out of Hong Kong, not so much as much as it used to be anymore, but used to be predominantly was Cantonese. Anytime that you varied from that, you're like, what's going on? Because the commercial, because the commercial viability of it was just like, well, how can you do that? And so to have something in a pretty prominent dialect, though, to be honest, it's not like it's a little kind of unknown dialect that's spoken in China. It's a pretty well known one and oversees Chinese people a lot of communities around the world. They speak and understand that language as well. So it was, it's a pretty massive deal, even though it doesn't, it feels like a footnote almost, but it means a lot to a lot of people because the language, the dialect, it evokes the culture, it evokes the heritage, and that's really important as well. I was going to say like most of the conversations that I've heard about this movie has been about that, right? But the idea of like this offering being like a really significant deal. There's also some controversy about a screening in Singapore that was dubbed Intamandering. Do you want to talk about why that was so contentious? There's, it's very politicized, like language is a very politicized element of culture and of society, and in Singapore where they contend to have a variety of official languages because they have Mandarin, they have English, they have they have Tamil, they have, they have, what am I, Malay as well. And, you know, so to have it, and Mandarin has become more and more prominent as the years have gone by in Singapore. When they are not meant to be a Chinese country, they are supposed to be Singapore. So to put, kind of to change the language of a film is specifically not in men. Exactly. It's very, not offensive, but maybe offensive to some people there who maybe do speak that language. Maybe that is where their families came from when they before they came into Singapore. And so, especially given that the nature of the film is about overseas Chinese and those communities and how they reached home, it, it was very charged, it was a very emotionally charged thing and became a politically charged thing. It's a lot, it's a lot to dive into, I have to say. I can imagine, like, if you've been waiting for some time, and you're watching, that's, they're most of the movies that coming out of China be in Mandarin. You go, like, okay, there's a few movies there in Cantonese, and then you get this movie, and then you go, like, and then this becomes dubbed into Mandarin. Of course, there's going to be an element of, like, hey, just as you were having something special. We're taking it away. It's going to take away. Yeah. Also, a central part of this movie where all revolves are in the concept of Sharpie letters. Do you want to talk about the historical context of how they made their way into this movie? How are they using the movie? So, Sharpie letters are letters that were sent from overseas Chinese people back into China, back to their families that contained typically money. Like, that's, and it's, it's funny because it's such a, it's a narrative plot in the film where this is how the mother, now, grandmother understands what actually happened with her family, or what, with her husband, and that was her way of keeping in touch with him all these years, or so she thought. But it truly is the thing that, I think that makes the film really special because it's so universal. It's a very specific thing to a specific time period, to a specific culture, and a movement of why a bunch of men, in particular, left at that time, but truly, it happens even today. We have a lot of overseas communities. They send money back home. Even from, say, if you were a country girl and you were, and you moved into the city. a lot of people are still sending money back home. So it's not an unrelatable experience. - It is. And it's I think because there is so much culture specificity, thank you, into it. It becomes that much more universal. We can see ourselves even if you didn't send a chowpe yourself or if somebody in your family didn't, it's like you can understand that idea quite well and quite inherently. - Yeah, I would wanna talk a little bit about the amount of money that this movie has made. It was like the success it's had. So dear you has earned nearly $300 million over the last few months. It is trying to second highest grossest film of the year. How does that happen? How did it go from this little indie movie screening in mainland China? It's kind of getting this buzz that kind of, it's gross and gross and gross. And then you've got a wide global release. - It was word of mouth. And that is the beautiful thing about these indie movies and any country, right? Whenever we see that little film that could blow up into something much greater and something much larger, I know those of us within the film screening, especially we are like, that's amazing. - You're rooting for that. - Yeah, because so many movies come out that are big box movies. They are the big studio movies. And they are made in a certain way. - They're one of the big studio movie, you know, blows up your like, of course. That's what it's gonna have. - We know that the Odyssey is gonna do well, right? We know it's gonna do well. But when you have these little efforts, these little grassroots efforts that come up, it's such a, it's like a David and Glythe story. It's gorgeous, it's beautiful. But it also I think speaks to what audiences are looking for right now. Like this is not your typical box cutter movie. This is something very authentic. And I think, especially the youth in China, they were really the ones to push it. 'Cause I think they were looking for something, maybe a bit more analog. They were looking for something kind of to pull them back into their roots, pull them back into their ancestry. I think that's what piqued their interest about it, was the history and the familial ties that all of them can relate to in it. And then it just grows from there. Like all of the overseas communities outside of China, outside of Taiwan, Macau, Hong Kong. And there are many of us all over the place. - Yes. - So it just grows. YouTube and all the different social media platforms now, they have become such a way of connecting all of us to the point that we're sitting here now, talking about this indie movie that came out in China. And I mean, who knew? - There's a degree of this like, just to go back to the thing you were saying earlier, the specific movies of it, maybe not your actual cup of tea in terms of the movies you gravitate towards. But the thing that makes you so engaged in the story is that you go, I'm rooting for this movie because I want something like this to have the audience that it has. When you sort of think about the idea of where to mouth, what do you think propels it? 'Cause to me, where to mouth movies, they have something really universal in them, they're like, you walk out and you go like, I gotta call three people and tell them, you gotta see this movie. What do you think about what's from this movie? 'Cause give me that feeling, you think? - I think it is that idea of being so specific to a culture, to a history of people. If I could relate it into Canada, it's like Nirvana. Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie. Like that is such a Toronto movie. And there were questions like, is it gonna work outside of Toronto or the rest of Canada? Yes, of course, the rest of Canada definitely embraced it because even though it's a very specific Toronto movie, it is still Canadian and there is a unification there, there is a pride there. I would say the same thing here is that there is so many pockets around China like, I think especially in the West, we have a tendency to look at China as this one monolith. Like it is Beijing, it is Shanghai. But even Beijing and Shanghai are night and day to one another. And so when you do have something that dives into a very specific culture, a very specific time and moment, so authentically and so heartwarmingly and thoughtfully, it appeals, it makes people want to become more interested. - They're real for it. - Yeah, you root for it. You want to understand it a little better? Like did my family have any tapey? Like, do can we go into the museums and check it out? Which some of those letters did come from like historic artifacts that are found in museums? So I think it just creates this interest and it's a snowball effect that runs trickles down. And I'm sure now they're gonna make like a million movies that are exactly like this. - I hope they do. - I hope they do. - Yeah, it's gonna, but it won't be, it probably won't be the same because it won't be made with that same drive, with that same genuine motivation to just tell the story about your people, your family and again, your culture. - Richelho, it's a delight to have you here, friend. - Thank you for having me, I mean. - Of course, Richelho is a film editor for Xclaim Magazine. Dear you, is in theaters now. That is it for the show today. My name is Elevina Ramamoud. This show is called Promotion. We'll be back tomorrow. We'll see you then. - For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca/podcasts.