The Importance of Having Friends

Your church comes to you each week to fill their cup, but when the crowd leaves, who's filling yours? That's exactly what I'm here to do with my new podcast for a focus on the family. It's called "Pastor to Pastor" with Dave Stone. I'm so excited to help you navigate the unique challenges that pastors face in their ministry journey, both personally and professionally. So, I invite you to listen and subscribe to "Pastor to Pastor" wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage. I'm Dr. Greg Smalley. And I'm Aaron Smalley and today, the ladies are taking over the studio. Oh boy. Well, actually, the ladies and Greg. We're going to be talking about women finding friends, insights into building deep, female friendships, even through conflict and how to let go of the friendships that aren't healthy. Yeah. And for the guys listening, bring those man cards because we're going to have our own huddle. Me and a buddy, we're going to talk about the reasons and the benefits of having someone that you call your friend. And later, we're going to answer a listener's email question, and this is a tough one. What does she do with a sexless marriage that she's had for almost two decades? Yeah. That's a long time, and that's rough. And there's so many situations that come up within marriage, and you know what, we're here for you. And we're going to walk with you through each and every one of them. So let's jump into the conversation we had with the girlfriends. Super quickly. I'm going to have each of you guys just introduce yourself and kind of just give a short brief description of how we are connected. Bev, do you want to start? Yeah. I'm Bev O'Connell, and we first met, I think, in our prayer group, that we had, and then we were in a bible study, I guess, together. However, we had a very special connection initially when I met Bev, and I heard her last name, O'Connell, I was like, "I know you. Your husband took my uterus out." And I'm sure you don't get that frequently, but we had a very special connection. I knew we would be friends. Okay, I'm Sony Grafton, and I met you, Aaron, in Hobby Lobby, about 14 years ago. On a day when I was losing my mind, and you were so sweet to come up and say, "Hi, how are you? Did you adopt her from China?" And we had that shared connection of adoption, which that started a sweet friendship that I'm so blessed by. Yes. I love you. Yes, it's so mutual. I'll never forget the day we had just moved here. And I'm walking through Hobby Lobby, and I see this woman that has a daughter that appears. She's from China, and she also had Cleffalp and Palette, like our Annie. And I immediately was like, "Oh my gosh, I have to talk to her. I need to know someone here who can tell me where to go to the doctor, where to get help for Cleffalp and Palette," and the friendship started right then. I think I ran my card into yours. And yes, and I was so glad to change my life, I had no friends who could relate to me at that time. Because we are the older moms with these younger girls, these younger teen girls, and they have become very sweet friends, which is just a blessing. I love it. And last, but not least, is Carrie. Carrie Verhai, and I think we met at Prayer Group at Ben, and then just continued to grow and friendship through our Bible study, and just love of the word, and just really getting together. Yes. Just been committed to just getting together and just keeping connection. Yes. I was telling Greg that there were seasons when I was coming to your Bible study, where that was my main connection in the week, because I was so busy with work and family and kids, and that was a time that I would get connection, and you provided that through opening up your home with Bible study. And as I prayed about who would be just a good fit for this podcast, each of you have loved women so well, and have drawn women in, and Carrie, your Bible study is that, carries the queen of speaking life over each woman that's in such specific ways. And Sony, you have just been such a source of speaking life. And Bev has a very unique story, as far as what she does for women at Christmas time when we just have to get this out in the table. Yes, it's amazing. Is it having anything to do with the highlight of the year? No. Nothing to do with the cuter. No, that's right. It has everything to do with, I want to say, a Winnebago, but that's right. Not why I don't Winnebago. Yeah. Greyhawk. Greyhawk. It's a classy RV. RV. And my love is to get women together, to women together to pray and to play. And many years ago, there was a handful of us that started going, right before Christmas, we would go up to TJ Maxx and Castle Rock, and we would go out to dinner, simple. Yes. And then it just grew after a year, after a year. And I think the last three or four years, I don't remember, we just loaded up the RV. We had 14 ladies. All in a seat. It was all legal. And we would go out to eat at the Castle Rock Cafe, and it's been great fun. They know us when we come in. They go, "Oh, you're back this year, like you're a picture of the store, and there's lots of laughter." And the lady saying, "I wish I had this free group." Yeah. It's a lot of fun. Such a blessing. Such a blessing. We'd probably do that a little bit differently, but I love the passion that you all four of you have around friendships, explain why is that? Why is that so important? Because everybody's busy. We've got a lot going on. Why is having female friendships so important? Well, I think going through the different seasons of life that we have all experienced, as we get older, we need support. We need reasoning, voices in our life that say, "You're not losing your mind. You are okay, you're going to make it through this really hard season or this challenging time." And we also need fun, because life is heavy. It can be hard. The older we get, the adult children, the adoption stuff, the different seasons of life, I think, bring different challenges. And we need each other to lean on for support. We cannot do it by ourselves. We cannot. We cannot. We cannot make us to do it alone. Yeah, definitely not solo. So often when I'm leaving a doctor appointment and I've gotten this new piece of information, I'm dialing Sony's number and going, "Okay, so this is what they said." And I don't know what I think. What do you think? What did they say to you? And also just feeding you the next doctor in line, because Annie's just a little bit ahead of Shandon with their procedures. And I mean, just sanity is such a big thing. Absolutely. What do you think, Carrie? Why is it important? I also think, you know, there's just a lot that's discouraging in the world. I think social media, you know, you see what everybody's doing and it just, it's isolating. And I think our female friendships are like the beautiful part. It's like the sweet spot where you see God come and, like, when you see what God's doing in someone else's life, how it just, it builds my own faith. And it stirs me to just see, again, the beauty in the world of what God is doing. And I call this like a spiritual math that burdens are divided and joys are multiplied in our friendships. And it's really important because when we are going through those tough seasons, like you said, Sony, like, we need to share those with one another, we need to know that someone else is praying for us. But then when something really good happens, like, it's so much sweeter when these people who've been praying with you and have seen your tears, who can then be like, "Praise God." Yes. Like, you see the breakthrough that it even adds to your own joy, we need more of that. It makes me think of our dear friend who's going to be married this weekend as she went through, being a single mom, going through a rough divorce and how God is redeeming that as she's getting married this weekend and we've all been able to celebrate that. But we are there praying for her at the very beginning of all of it as well. What do you think, Beth? You know what? It's life-giving. I mean, it's just life-giving to get together with your ladies and when we have those issues and we have these blinders on and we can't, we can only see sometimes a problem so it can get us right where, you know, he wants us. And then we have someone that comes alongside of us and says, "You know, no, look at this, this way." And you're like, "All glory sings then because you can see the bigger picture." And, you know, I always talk about the linking of arms, too. We can't. There's those days that we just can't. And we link arms and we help each other up and we need to be seen or those ladies who haven't been in a while and then we have something and then suddenly they're there and they're sharing and we can pray and we can lift each other up and it's just life-giving. It brings life to me and I have to assume it brings life to you guys because you keep coming. [laughter] You're showing up. We have the party mask. It takes people shopping and to eat. But the party lights up. Yeah. She puts Christmas lights up. We decorate it, we decorate it, we decorate it, we have linking hats and glasses. Christmas vacation. It probably is. So how does for someone listening just go on, "Yeah, that makes sense, hear the importance. How does she push through to actually cultivate the friendships that you guys are talking about because I imagine for some, I mean I'm an introvert so one, it's horrifying what you're saying. So I'm like, I don't know about that, but see how does someone kind of push through to cultivate what you're talking about? I think you just have to keep showing up. I call myself an extroverted introvert. I kind of learn and I do get what I'm an introverted introvert. Yeah. Yeah. I understand. But you know I think just keep doing it, just keep doing it. Keep showing up, God puts someone on your heart, you call them or text them or whatever and just keep doing it. Or the big thing for us when we first moved here, we moved here in 97, it's just getting involved. We got involved in small groups and then we started, this is how Sony and I met was we started a small group in my 23 year old, I was pregnant with her and then you branch off into other women and then life changes and people change but just keep coming back to it. Just push through, do it, you know, host it, you know, it was hard for me to host it first because I was much more of an introvert than and then I found out most women were really all the same. The circumstances are different, but we all want to do things with other people. We all want to be accepted. We all want to be loved and heard and seen and and to make a difference in someone else's life. And so just pushing through to that. That's good. Yeah. I'm always horrified when Aaron wants to host something because I'm like, that's great, but how will we get these people out? You have started. He just goes to bed. Good to see you. Good to see you. I'm ready. Good. Lock up on your way out. Yeah. So what else would Sony for you? I think it really, if you sit and wait for it to come to you, you're just going to continue to be disappointed. I think you really do have to decide that you're going to make some effort. You really have to say, okay, if I've told my kids, you become like the five kids, you hang out with the most, then I need to apply that to my life and say, if I want to become this kind of woman, I need to target who are those women and where are they that I could get to know them and start to form relationships where then I can hope for deeper connections to happen within that. But it doesn't happen overnight. It's a slow process of continual investment, and you can't just sit on your couch because you're tired every night and never make an effort to go out or to commit to a study or a prayer group or because you're not going to make the connections, you're going to continue to feel lonely and be isolated, you know, you got to do something, and then God will give you the return. And it's not everybody, you're not going to make a deep connection with everybody. But certain people, different times, you know, God just brings what you need, and I think if you make yourself vulnerable, people receive that and they want to, they're like, yeah, totally. Yeah, because I like how you were saying that it seems like all friendships that aren't created equally. No. No. So there's a difference here. You use a great analogy around baskets that I've actually, I thought was brilliant. I've heard you talk about this and I really like it. I've used it even with our daughters that there's three baskets and not everyone is created to be in your basket number one, those that know you best. And there are those that are in your basket one for your entire life. I say there's a difference like some friends are like permanent marker friends, some friends are like dry erase markers. They permanent markers come in and they write on your heart and they're there forever. Others come into your life for a season at a very deep level, and then they blow away like a dry erase marker. But all of those different levels of friendships are important. Jesus had different levels of friendships and well, maybe friendships, I don't know. Friendships relationships. And not the disciples. Yes. They weren't all equal. Yeah. Right. And so basket two is important. They're the, they might be a seasonal friendship and basket three are acquaintances and all three are important and God puts them all in our lives, but they may not all be with the same purpose in your life for an entire lifetime or a season. Yeah, because I imagine there's been times where you've had maybe someone who was in kind of that basket number one so that that deeper, closer, there's a lot of vulnerability there that maybe had to be moved. So they're probably your challenges within friendships. So how have you kind of moved people in and out of those baskets? It varies person to person situation to situation, but I would guess with the four of us sitting here at this table that there's been hurt in friendships. And I see that consistently women will then say, I'm not doing it anymore. I'm, I'm cutting friendships out of my life and I always say, but God created us specifically to be in relationship with each other because physiologically when we're stressed and we connect with other women, our stress level, our cortisol levels drop. And we are drawn, the oxytocin is called the tendon befriend hormone that we are drawn to befriend other women and tend to our children. We can't cut out part of the design that that is how God designed us. And so they say it takes a full year if you're super intentional to build a community of friends. So I don't know. How have you guys dealt with the hard conflict because typically we don't want to address it? Yeah. You know, I think of a particular situation like one. Is she in this room right now? Yeah. Say it. All close or I do think. Greg will be the only one that knows. But learning to say I'm sorry, like understanding that I will say that in this room like we've said things that have hurt each other that were unintentional, but that we trust each other's heart beyond what the specific words that were spoken and that we don't, we're not quick to take offense from each other and we're quick to say, oh, I'm so sorry or check back in like, hey, I think that might have come out in a way I didn't mean to and just like check in with each other just to make sure that it's not a wound that we incurred. But also there are times when you do have to move like there has to be some separation. Like I have just a friend that's repeatedly like just wounding your heart or who knows what it is that maybe that person is overly jealous or something that just kind of continues to bring this friction in the friendship that they can be that friend that you see, but it's with a different purpose. It's not that they get access to the deepest places of your heart that they get, you know, they can understand what's going on in your life, but that you're not sharing the deep things. And that's okay to move them to that category and it's not that you have to cut them out of your life or cancel them, but that just that, yeah, that you just are careful who you entrust your heart to, you know, sometimes it's just a season too, you know, it's amazing what guy can do and you don't want to put God in the box. And if you totally cut everybody out that offends you, you would be very lonely. Hold on. I think some of it's just seasons, you know, and so let's say you've got some closer basket level friends, but then you start to notice some things about them. What would be maybe a couple red flags to where you might need to take a step back or maybe shift that person into a different basket? If there's an element of jealousy or competition, you know, that kind of comes where somebody's maybe misaligning their value and competing more with you than complimenting you as a friend, I think stepping back and just allowing that person to kind of have their process. It could be that they're not really walking with the Lord right now, that they're bitter about some things. And I think if they kind of become like that, they're a little more toxic. And we can't fix them. We can love them, but I think having boundaries and sort of stepping back a little is good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just to this to be a very exclusive friendship, this is me and you, not all these other people. Yeah. And we say to that when there's seasons that people travel to where maybe they're dealing with something hard in their marriage or they're dealing with a parent getting sick or something's going on that they're not showing up in a healthy way. And you know, you want to love, but sometimes it's best to love from a distance. Doesn't mean that like you were saying, Kerry, that you walk away, that you canceled it, you know, it severs the friendship. It just looks different for a season and what I love about the baskets is that then that friend might go through a new season to where they're healthier and they're able to reengage at that level. And that's what I love. It's fluid. It's constantly shifting and changing. And I think that's healthy. Yeah. Do you shift baskets and tell them you're no longer, you're not basketball. You're like a basket five. So I mean, how would you do that kind of working through those kind of conflicts? It varies person to person because I get that question a lot and I would say, you have to be wise, knowing is this someone who can have that conversation and can hear it and receive it? Or are they going to strike back out or are they going to be angry? Are they, you know, try to turn maybe other friends in the group away? It's just having wisdom, praying about it, what's the Holy Spirit saying to you? Is this something that he's calling you to speak to them, to spur them to higher ground? He's got to lead it. God's got to lead it to tell you like, yes, I want you to be brave and courageous and speak up and to help this person grow because that's the opportunity we have. I would say every single one of you has helped me grow as a woman and as a friend and as a wife even. Yeah. You didn't know that. I suspected it, I see that, you know, I thought I was responsible for it, but now I know better. Well that's a great point. Like, yeah, what are some ways that you've seen how your friendships, your investment in your female friendships have helped you grow? What does that look like in your life? I loved hearing my friends' hearts for their kids and the things that the challenges that they were facing, it made me feel more normal and like, okay, we've adopted as well and so there's a lot of these things that it's just like, oh, you get it. You get it. Just how this all works within our family and in our marriages too. Like, I just, I think one, because a lot of what we do is around prayer, Bible study, that when we do talk about our husbands, that it is just like, that we're covering them in prayer. Yes. We're not complaining. Yes. Like, this is not a group where we entertain those kinds of- You're in a fashion. Right. No. No. Not at all. Suspect. Maybe that happens. It's good to know that's not really what exactly- We got some great husbands here, but even in the kind of more surface level ways, it still brings life and encouragement and just to hear what's going on with you guys and your kids and that it stirs ideas, creativity, it stirs re-upping to like, okay, I'm going to try and like, just have this conversation with my son that I need to have just hearing what God had done through something that had happened in one of Y'all's relationships. Right. You know, it just, it feeds encouragement to me. I would agree. It definitely encourages just a closer, knit, commitment to my husband when I'm seeing how you guys are loving well on your husbands and we're having fun together. We're processing things with each other. Our husbands don't want to hear about, but they can handle our emotions, they can't handle the hormones, they don't want to talk about it. You know, because there is all of this, am I okay? Yeah. And you're like, yeah, I have that same thing and I go, oh good, dysfunction runs together. Even- Like with you through it. Even not being able to remember words to access them quickly at this stage. And we can literally describe it and the other person will get it. They'll go, oh yeah, that's an RV. Great. It's not a Winnebago. Same thing. Yes, we all have it. We all have it. What about for you, Bev? I've learned, you know, I didn't expect some of the things that have happened and just learning, wow, how quickly things can happen gives me words to situations, it makes me introspective and ask my own questions and ask my friends, okay, how does this look? And I think it's really good because then you're going into the next situation differently. Eyes open, heart more open and having grace. We talked about, we talked on and off about this, and I know Aaron and I several months ago, we would remind each other, just grace, just grace, you know. Unaffendable for ourselves and grace for others. And just remember that we all need that, yeah, absolutely. And do you think, in general, that the world values female friendships? I think they do. Certain groups of people do. I think authentic female friendships are hard to find. I think that there's a lot of people who are willing to only go so deep, but if you want to tell me any truth, I don't really want to hear what you have to say. I just want to live my life and have you stamp that it, you know, looks good. And they want to remain kind of more at the surface. A lot of people, but I think as believers, we share a desire for continued self improvement. We want to continue to become more like, Christ wants us to be. And I personally need your feedback. I need honesty and I think in this time we live in, people are so easily offended and so easy to cancel you and it's loving to be truth telling, but it's really, it takes a lot to say I'm going to receive that from you because that's what authentic friendship is willing to do to make you a better person. Yes. And especially making sure it's done in love because there are people who, that's all you're going to hear from them is this is how you can be better. And this is what is wrong with you versus I love you. And I see all these great things in you and I see this area that I can encourage you in. And so so much how we give that feedback to each other, I think is so important that when we do that, we walk away just better. At first, a little shocked of like, oh, I didn't know that you saw that in me, but being willing to receive it. But I say so important to also root each other on positively. All of our lives look different. And I know for me being in this season, it has been a crazy season. And I know when I started my doctoral work two years ago, I'm sure all of you were like, is she crazy? And I was thinking it too. But here I am two years later, and each of you has been there in different ways to root me on to go, I know it's hard to keep going, take the next class, do it. And, you know, and just keep going. And I know for each of you, there's been seasons of challenge to where each of us have encouraged or someone, another female friend has encouraged you through that season. So I'm going to ask each one of you this. So if you could go back to younger you, maybe in your early 20s, what would you say to your younger self about female friendships and the importance and how to do them well? You know, I think about this world that we're in now, and I'm involved with a lot of young women too, that it's easy to become just insular in some ways, that you're just taking care of your family, and you're enjoying your husband, and it's easy to be content at home. There's entertainment that just makes home really great and safe, and I think what I would tell myself if I were a 20-year-old, you know, in that young phase. Just a few years ago. Just last year. But that it's worth the investment, it's worth getting out of the comfortable space and seeing that that's not everything is just to have my little space in order and perfect, but yet that it will take some sacrifice of time and a commitment to people that can be sometimes messy or hard to love, but knowing that I can learn from everyone, like that there's this God story that every person has, and that I can learn from them. I can learn about God by watching what God's doing in their life, and that it's going to only bless my family, my husband, my kids, if I make that investment and to be committed to that. That's good. Sony, what about for you? I would say being vulnerable is something that I wish I had not felt like I had to have it so together as a younger person. You're trying as a young mom, you know, with your friend group to look like, hey, you know, I know what I'm doing, and I've got it all figured out in the sooner. We get to that point of just saying, hey, I don't have it all figured out, and I am not all together, and I'm really struggling, is where we actually get to take that step into a deeper relationship because we're being honest instead of everybody trying to act like, oh yeah, I have it all together too. Really, you know, I think just being vulnerable and being more willing to be honest, I think right off the bat, instead of just kind of like, hey, well, would you agree, Sony, that adopting our precious angels, it took me to a place, she took me to a place of going, I don't have it all together, and of course, our children have kind ways of helping us to see that and to realize, like, we need each other, we need support. There was no fake utility, you make it. There was no, you could not, where I was, was at the bottom of the pit, and I think when I ran my card into yours, I was right there with you, that's supposed to be awesome, you know. I'm supposed to be at this high point in my life, and, you know, and then I have these friends who are, you know, empty nesters, and they're talking about how lovely their life is, and their time is, and I'm thinking, what in the world have I done? You know, and yet God brought you, He brought other people into my life at that time, where I was like, I'm going to be okay, but I couldn't help but be honest at that point in my 40s, and I wish I'd been more that way, so in my 20s, you know. That's good. Beth, what about for you? Yeah, well, I wasn't married, and I got married at 29, so I wasn't as distracted, and I wish I'd been more intentional in drawing out other people in my life then. You know what I mean? I didn't. It took years, it's probably in my 20s, that I realized we were more like that I knew. And I did think you had to fake it till you make it. I worked in the medical field, and you had to, you know, you had to act like a new, a little something, but I wish I had listened to the stories, asked the pointy questions to draw out the stories, that's what I wish I had done. And then the, 'cause that forms connection, you know, maybe a different basket, but it forms connection. Yeah. That's good, Erin. It's the last word. Yeah, it's interesting because it would be similar to what I would say to myself as a young bride, even, and that is that not. You've got a smoking hot husband, and you want to show me him, but that not every offense needs to be addressed. That there are those things that happen that you can just say, you know, I forgive, and I'm moving on, and it's not going to impact the connection with that person. Or maybe it is, it's something that happened that needs to just shift the level of expectation in the relationship. But just to tell myself, just relax, like it, not everything needs to be talked about because I have the propensity to talk about things. I have no idea that's the question. I didn't, I don't know that we asked you the question, so. Why are you responding? The question, why am I here? I don't know. Because I wanted you. Yeah. No, and it quite honestly, what's been inspiring, I was starting to think, why has this conversation lifted my spirits, which it really has, because I start thinking, you know, we see a lot of reality TV. You know, that stuff is scripted, and they want the conflict, but most of what I see within female friendships outside of just viewing you and your friends here, but used to see them go horribly. You see it so competitive, so much jealousy, so much terms as well. Right. Like, yeah. I mean, you know, even junior high high school girls, I'm always like, they're horrible and always friendships, but just hearing you guys talk about the joys, the benefits, what you've learned, how you've grown, it's extremely inspiring. It's fun to know and to hear that healthy friendships are possible. And that's kind of what I'm taking away, and I was sort of just going to be here in the corner, just kind of just sitting here, just being a trophy husband, but it's, I love that. Yeah. So that's been very inspirational for me and I would say that healthy friendships come with intentionality, intentionality of spending time together. It takes those that are willing to gather women in a group and be intentional about studying God's word together. It is so many things addressing the hard, so you can go deeper still with someone being vulnerable. All of it is so important. And it doesn't mean that it's going to be easy and that's okay. But just to the woman that's out there maybe thinking, I don't have this because I think the number one lie that the enemy says to women is you are all alone, you have no friends. And I'm guessing at least once a month that most women go through that even when you are surrounded by women who love you, that there's that thought of, I don't have that person. And I always say start praying, start watching, start inserting yourself into groups or start a group. If you try and someone says no, our group is full, start your own and invite some of those women to your group, start a Bunko group, start a coffee group, start a walking group, whatever it is just to build connection because then you're going to start sensing, who is it that God is calling me to go deeper with, who is going to be in my basket one and it doesn't happen overnight. And it takes time and intentionality. Well the four of you are amazing. This has been fun to just to listen and so grateful and I say that Aaron that maybe we do this again Christmas time on the bed party bus conversation on the party. Can we wear hats in our lighted necklaces? And we'll bring in our shopping finds and hold them up to let you guess how much we paid for it. Maybe we do a contest and give away a seat on the party bus opening it up the floor. Thank you guys so much you. I have to tell you Greg, this was such a special episode for me, such as the special segment because these women have walked through the good, the bad, the ugly with me as well as I have with them. And we've walked through so many different seasons with our kids together, different seasons with health stuff, financial stuff, stuff in our marriage. And it just really has produced a sweetness in our friendships. And I will say that there's been challenges too at times and we've had to figure out how to navigate that. Yeah, and I tell you I was also inspired. It was just fun being there and listening to what you guys were saying. And I just drew a lot of inspiration from just the work that you guys put in to maintain your friendship because you recognize how important that is and guys, I would just so encourage you. We really work to help support your wife as she finds these friends and just really support her in that, give her that time to hang out and to spend the time with her friends. You can hear by just this conversation how vital this is for a healthy individual to have those kinds of friends. And I will say even having that interview with them strengthened our friendships because I realized that having them here how special that was because not many of my friends get to enter into my life here in the studio, I mean, my best friend you are entering in with me every episode, but not many of my girlfriends get to come in and participate in that even strengthen our friendship. So just a lot of fun. They're fun women and I just didn't encourage listeners. As like you said, men, encourage your wives to be with other women because that is part of how God created women to be in relationship with other female friendships. And that's going to benefit you in the long run. And ladies, if you are sitting there thinking, I don't have any friends or I don't have that one close friend, keep praying and keep watching because I know in different seasons, yeah, in different seasons of my life, I've had to wait and watch and pray and God is always faithful. So I tell you like I said, I mean, I'd love to be in a part of this conversation. I know that you've got some friends, maybe new friends, old friends that would really benefit to draw just inspiration from this conversation. So go ahead and share the crazy little thing called marriage link with your female friends in your life. Yep. Send it to everyone in your email address book, cast a wide net, invite your girlfriends over to have coffee or whatever and listen to the podcast together. And talk about your relationship. It's a great way just to have an honest conversation like where are we good? Where do we need to grow as friends? Where can we invest? How can we walk alongside each other? Support each other in the season, yeah. And the holidays are upon us. This could be a year to make some wonderful memories together, like going in the RV to go shopping. The Christmas bus, and I want to see it on that bus. Oh, we have so much fun. So we also want to recommend the book, grown up girlfriends. I actually wrote that book years ago, a matter of fact, like 18 years ago, with a dear friend of mine who passed away shortly after we wrote the book together. So it's a precious book to me and it outlines everything we talked about on the podcast as well as further topics and conversations that you can have. And I want to encourage you to look in the show note and you can get your copy of grown-up girlfriends. Well, since Erin has already taken over the podcast with her girlfriends, I thought it would be fair to have some equal representation. So maybe some huddle time with one of my good friends. So let me introduce Bill Arbuckle, Bill, you and I, we've known each other about, close to 15 years, we met here, focus. You were in a different department, but then we've actually now at the privilege of working together on the same team for about the last six years or so. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I've enjoyed it. Yeah. I have to. And that's what's fun that Erin really, her friendships, these are people outside of work. And so that she hangs out with, and I thought it would be fun to bring in someone that I consider a very good friend. Thanks. From work that we get to work together and have a friendship with each other. Right. So Bill, as you think about friendships, guys, friendships are hard for guys. They really are. As you were talking about being friends at work, I think that's usually where I've made my best friendships. And when those friendships continue outside of the walls, that's amazing because, you know, we get to share things at work, but afterwards we get to just talk a little bit more and go in depth. I think that's what I like about that. Yeah. Why do you think it's so hard for guys to cultivate deep friendships? I think you have to open up to a certain extent. And that's not always easy. Sometimes I get caught up in my own thoughts so much that I need someone to break me out of that. And I don't know. For me, that's part of it is just opening up, being vulnerable and being willing to try, being brave enough to try something different. Yeah. I think for me, it's, I go to work. And then I'm coming home, I've got four kids, I've got a wife, it's hard for me. It's times to prioritize. My male friendships, because I know the time with my kids is well, and very important. Yeah. I mean, Aaron and I get to minister together, work together and so we get a lot of time together. But I know for me, it's hard to prioritize really spending time with guys, because I don't know if it's I feel guilty that I should be given this time to, to my kids while they're right. Right. Yeah, I struggle with that too. I think there are times that my wife has to kick me out. There's a, go outside, go high, Aaron sets me up on play dates with other men at times. Okay, yeah, usually I get asked to go, hey, let's watch a movie, eat corn chips or something like that. So those are little things. But my wife really encourages that, because she knows, you know, I mean, they're at work or trying to get stuff done at home. Yeah. I need that break. Yeah. Because I think for a lot of guys, we deal with loneliness, I mean, that's a pervasive issue within our culture, you know, there's this pressure to perform. We have to be successful work and the other things that, that we're doing, which makes having a good male friend, that that friendship so very important, how have you seen kind of in your own life, the benefits of having, you know, friends at work or friends outside of work? Yeah. Something to mind on that one is this past weekend, I was just thinking, I wish I had somebody, I could just, hey, let's go out and talk. I've got some things I'm trying to work through. And my wife and I are switching to a new church. We haven't been able to build those relationships. Yeah. So that was a, for me, I'm like, my best friend is 12 hours away. So that was, I guess, the flip side. But I think too, having a best friend, having close friends, I'm able to relax, be who I am. And when I need some advice, I can call and talk, actually my best friend called a couple of weeks ago and said, I just need your opinion on a family issue. And am I a jerk? I've been happy to tell him, yes, well, you know, I just come out and say it or do you kind of sandwich that? Well, I kind of, I like to just slip it in with some cars, I wouldn't say jerk. I would say, do we, but, you know, you're just being a bone, but you know, it is someone that I can be honest with, which is, which is hard. Yeah. You know, we look at social media. We see all the, you know, the best of what everybody else is doing. I think for guys, you know, naturally, it's just that vulnerability is hard. But I think about a lot of guys and maybe the knock against male friendships or that, you know, their surface, they lack depth. Oh, yeah, we'll get together, we'll watch a game or we'll go to a movie, but we're really not going to get to know each other. I've heard that. I've heard guys say, well, I've been watching football games, you know, with you as a fellow fan for 10 years, I couldn't tell you anything about your life or your family or the struggles. It's hard. It is, but I think it's a choice too, because you could, as a guy, you could talk during commercials, you know, I can't believe this is happening right now. Those are little things that I've learned over the years. That's where the real conversation is. Your defenses are down. There's just a couple of minutes. It doesn't have to be a long talk. Something I learned with my boys early on, we had the best conversations in the car where I was driving there in the back. Shoulder to shoulder versus steering at each other. Yeah, we don't have to look at each other. There's another driver. Probably not going to go out and have coffee together, but we'll go for a drive, right? And a lot can happen if you're willing to do that. Yeah. I can think back to some of my favorite moments with my male, either colleagues or friends, I remember one time being on a business trip and so we go out to dinner and again, it's easy to shoot the breeze, it's easy just to be sarcastic and cut up and talk about movie, whatever. But I remember just saying, okay, you guys, let's go deep here. Like tell me the biggest mistake you've made inside your marriage. And they're looking at me like, wait a minute, but I tell you what, the guys were ultimately willing. I knew them well enough to where we felt safe with each other and we went there. And that was one of the most powerful meals, experiences with some buddies that I've ever had, just when we were willing to be vulnerable. And letting the other guy give their expertise, because I found that opens the door in some ways. I'm not being threatening, just like, I'm dealing with this at home with my kid. And it may just be that they're like, been there. And sometimes that's enough is just that we're fellow warriors now. We've been through this. Yeah. And you can build from that. I appreciate you and I appreciate the commitment that you have to me and our relationship. Wow. I loved listening to that because I didn't know you felt like that about your friends. And you know, so often you joke, I hate people. And I'm always like, that's not true because you love people, not like I do, but you love your friends. I do. I don't have as many friendships as you do, but I've got some great ones in just last night. It was so fun. We wanted to dinner with two other couples and two of my very closest friends and just to be able to sit there and we went deep and it was fun even as a whole table, you know, of couples. We were able to have some great conversation. Well, and I love the last night. You were the one that even introduced a group question and we all went around and answered it. It was in depth to the evening. And so I just went to AI and I said, would be one powerful question. If you're sitting with a group of couples, what could you ask? And that was the question. So that's how AI can be very helpful in that situation. You know, and if really anything that we've said, you know, has made you kind of think, yeah, that's me. I don't have a close friend or I'm just lacking in the friendship department will do something about it. So study show, it's so good for a man's heart, you know, as well as the woman's, but especially talking about guys right now, it's great for your heart to have those male friendships. So find some new ways to connect, you know, join a group activity that you enjoy or, you know, simply be open to exploring, you know, a deeper connection with friendships that you already have. And we put a free digital download in our show notes. So it's called the skit guys, Eddie James and Tommy Woodward, and you're going to love this. Those two dudes have such a great story and they describe what they've been doing through their 30 plus year friendship. You know, take the time and listen to that and ladies, if your husband needs some encouragement in this area, go ahead, send them a link to this podcast episode right now. Well, here we are once again in Q&A town. This is where we live to answer the questions that you submit. Get it? We live in Q&A town here. Come on. That's funny. I need better reaction from you. Haha. Alright. Today's question is actually very serious. Janet sent this question in via email and she wrote Dear Greg and Erin, this is hard to write. My question is, am I really married? I'm not sure I picked the right guy. He's a good person, but he told me he isn't interested in sex after we got married. I believe marriage should include sex. I saved myself after my first marriage for 20 years. At him, then I got married to the only guy in the universe who doesn't want sex. I've tried for 16 years. If I love him as a friend and one of God's children, more than I love him in any other way, and we've never had sex, am I really married in God's eyes? We don't sleep together, we're roommates. We sign papers at the DMV, no ceremony. I'm dying inside. What would you do? Put a tough question and we love that you were courageous enough to ask this. We love God's got you really wrestling through this. When you asked, is this really a marriage? Am I really married? Let's talk about that from a biblical spot. Marriage encompasses way more than legal paperwork or cohabitation. God designed marriage to be a covenant. I don't care if you're at a DMV, I don't care if you're out in the middle of nowhere, just the two of you. Anytime, it's believers, it's Christians that we stand before a group, stand just the two of us and look to the heavens and make a pledge to be married, to be committed to life as a married couple. We enter into that covenant. So yes, absolutely, you are married. It's not about, well, we didn't physically consummate that. I would not believe that that's the requirement, that there's some faith traditions that might talk about that, but I certainly don't believe that. There's that emotional, spiritual, and certainly, yes, physical unity that Genesis 2.24 talks about. But when we stand before the Lord, wherever you stood before the Lord, and vowed to each other, in whatever way, either a huge ceremony or just the two of you, you're 100% married. And I want to make sure that you know, Janet, that you're longing for sexual intimacy is deeply valid. You think about how God created each of us male and female and how our bodies were created. It's a natural response within a marriage relationship. And especially you said you waited faithfully for the relationship that you wanted to enter into to honor God's design of marriage. So I just want to validate that that's a real longing. And I can imagine what has come with it is deep pain. Maybe it shows up in the form of feeling rejected, not good enough, invalid. However that presents within you and within your heart, I want to encourage you to allow that to matter, that you can show up between you and you, you and God, maybe even an individual counselor, caring for your heart and healing that pain, becoming aware of it and healing it. Yeah. And Janet, like you talked about, it's important to really understand why has this happened for the last 16 years to really dig in to understand what have I been bringing to the table, this contributed to this, what is he brought to the table and to do that really needs to be with a good Christian counselor. And so I don't know if your husband is willing to do that. I would approach it with, you know, I love you, I'm fully committed to you. When I think about the next 20 years of our marriage, I really desire to have a relationship with you that is wholehearted. In other words, you know, mind, body, emotion, spiritually, I mean all of it. Even again, including that physical part, and I know that that's been absent. And I really, I want to work with you. Let's figure this out. Let's go and let's dig in. Let's do the hard work. This is not going to be easy. It's not going to be like, hey, two sessions, we're good to go. But to really work at this together, into, to say it that way, because you could always say, hey, I'm disguised as we haven't had sex in 16 years and what's wrong with you and or you can say, you know, let's figure this out together. I want, I want for so much more, and I love you and want a very different season with you for the next 16 years. And really in that conversation, Janet, I encourage you to explore the deeper issues. What's going on? Is there a reason that your husband hasn't wanted to have sex? Is there a medical issue? Is there past trauma? What is going on? And with no judgment, of course, but it's checking in and talking about that stuff. And if it needs to be in the counselor's office, we would say, do that for sure. Right. Which increases safety in the conversation, do that and invite him into the, the possibility of seeking help from a licensed Christian counselor. Sometimes Janet, it just, it takes one of you to decide, I'm not going to live like we've been living the past 16 years and just takes one person to really bust open this, the dynamics in the system that you guys have created for you to courageously go, you know what, when I think about the next 16 years, I want something so much more and I believe you do as well. And let's figure this out together. And again, sometimes it requires a boundary to make this very clear. I'm not willing to continue living this way and I want to do this with you and I'm willing to do this with you. Let's do this remaining the same is no longer an option. Right. I mean, lovingly let him know that. I mean, you can't demand, but you're saying what we've had is not acceptable to me. And I want so much more than we can get there. Let's face this and let's deal with it and there's so much good help out there. We have a program called Hooper Stored and it's a fantastic marriage intensive program. We've been doing this for 20 plus years, 15,000 couples later and 80% success rate. So you guys can do this. There's enough good help out there. Yes. And Janet, if you were sitting in my office, I would sit with you, agree with you, validate your pain. And Janet, you are so courageous for putting this out there, asking this question because you're not alone in this, 23% of couples are sexless. So we're really just thankful that you sent this question in. Yeah. Look out for your copy of Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage. Thank you for joining us on Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage. Yes, thank you for following the show and sharing it with your friends and family. We want you to have a seat at the table every week as we help equip you and your spouse to have a lifelong satisfying marriage. Yeah, keep growing spiritually as individuals and together as a couple so that you can invest in other couples to help them build thriving marriages. Well, thanks for listening. We'll talk to you again next Monday about this Crazy Little Thing Called Marriage. You're a church comes to you each week to fill their cup. But when the crowd leaves, who's filling yours? That's exactly what I'm here to do with my new podcast from Focus on the Family. It's called Pastor to Pastor with Dave Stone. I'm so excited to help you navigate the unique challenges that pastors face in their ministry journey both personally and professionally. So I invite you to listen and subscribe to Pastor to Pastor wherever you get your podcasts.