The Impact of Black Teachers in the Segregated South with Harvey B. Gantt

[Music] This is On The Margins, a podcast about educational equity in North Carolina. We bring the often untold stories of education in the state from margin to center. [Music] Harvey B. Gant is a legend. Now he would totally object to me describing him that way, but it's no less true. We could talk about so many different things when discussing Harvey's legacy. We could discuss him being the first African American student to be admitted at Clemson University, managing his architectural practice, Gantt Hubertman Architects, or being the first black mayor of Charlotte. But for this episode, we instead decided to focus on his K-12 experience in Charleston, South Carolina during segregation. This seemed appropriate because as of May 17, 2019, it marked the 65th anniversary of the landmark bronze versus Board of Education case that declared separate was inherently unequal. It signaled the imminent demise of state-sanctioned segregation. Days before our interview, Dorothy Count Skoggins, who in 1957, integrated Harding High School in Charlotte, was honored with the bench on the side of the old school to commemorate her bravery. As a 15-year-old girl, she walked toward that entrance of the school greeted by cheers and spitting from her white classmates. This time, she was escorted by two little black girls from Hornets Ness Girl Scout Troop, 569. I reached out to Harvey because after reading a research article titled, Pedagogies of Protest, African-American teachers, and the history of the Civil Rights Movement in 1940 through 1963, the author Scott Baker focused his study on Burke Industrial School and Charleston, South Carolina. He makes the case that black teachers in the South were not just bystanders in the movement, but in many ways the protagonist, using their instructional approaches to inspire some of the nation's most prominent activists. It didn't take long for me to recognize that this was Harvey's alma mater. I figured we'd sit down and talk about his experience at Burke, the power of black teachers, and the counter-storyer segregation that's rarely ever discussed. I started by asking him if he thinks there's any merit to the idea of a uniquely black pedagogical approach and how his teachers impacted him. A huge part of who I am today is, in fact, influenced by teachers that I still remember to this day. I remember speaking to a fourth grade class here in Charlotte some years ago, and the kids were fascinated by the fact that I could remember my first grade teacher, my second grade teacher, and right on through. And what impact they had on my life as I looked back on it. And the teacher really was revered. Even by some of the students who were not as keenly focused on academics, the teachers were revered, highly respected. Probably because getting a teacher job in Charlotte and Charleston in the black community meant you had risen to a certain economic platform. That's how you either a teacher, a doctor, a preacher, and teachers were revered, respected. But more than that, they sort of, I thought really cared more about those students that came through. Now, May 17th, 1954, changed the environment substantially, substantially. I was in fourth or fifth grade, LA Hill, Miss LA Hill was my teacher. And I don't remember her for civil rights as much as I remembered her for her disciplining me for not listening to her, because I was busy drawing. But here's a teacher who saw something in me, even though I was listening to her lesson, that she took it upon herself to reprimand me in front of the class. So I was ashamed. And then she made me stay after the class. And when she made me stay after the class, she told me why she held me there. She said, not only were you not listening, but you seem to have a talent that we're going to try to develop. I was sketching and drawing. She noticed that. That's why I wasn't paying attention during the formal classroom session. She then put me to work sketching and drawing the Thanksgiving bulletin board for that period. And then you put pilgrim pictures of the pilgrims in it about the history. And I actually took to it like a duck takes the water, developed a new respect for this teacher. And I can say that about three or four other teachers all along the way. But after May 17th, 1954, I should say that teachers got a little bit more aggressive. Why do you think that was though? Well, we think trigger that. The court, the highest court in the land said being in these segregated schools, getting secondhand textbooks, secondhand facilities, all the other things that you could think of that were second and third and would likely be coming to an end, that the oppression that we witnessed and experienced through legal segregation was likely on the way down. And these are the kids that are going to benefit from it. So let's get them prepared. You know, it's, I want to put a pin there because as I mentioned, all these things leading up to me kind of coming in contact with this article, coming in contact with Charleston as a setting and then Burke High School industrial school. And then realizing you were going there, evolved out of a whole, bevy of a whole set of research over the decades. And probably nobody is more renowned than Vanessa Siddler Walker, right? This lady right here who wrote the book, their highest potential. She's from Caswell County North Carolina and she looks at her, her industrial school right in that community. And you pick up on these similar things, but then she goes further and she says that this is not just my school. This was comment among schools segregated black schools all throughout the South. And she used to phrase once one of her lectures where she says those teachers were preparing their students for a world that did not yet exist. And that blows my mind here, you say that here you are in a segregated environment. And you know, many of these research, she's not the only one Michelle Foster. But they look at even the stuff that they would teach they would talk about democracy and they would talk about leadership and critical thinking. And I really was you talk about democracy. This is at a time where many black folks couldn't even vote. What are you doing talking about democracy? But they were intentionally sparking the young minds. That's exactly right. I mean, and the way they taught history was a little bit different. Yeah, talk to me about that. I always find it remarkable if you go back to the old textbooks that the South distributed about the Civil War. Very little mention of slavery. It was the war between the states. It was a war for states rights over an African rights. And the South was almost excused for being belligerent and forceful and saying, we're not going to stay a part of this union because we have rights. But very little talk and very little discussion about the evils of slavery. But not in our classrooms. Not in our history teachers. I mean, Ms. Maxwell and many of the others taught us what the real reason for the Civil War was. But not what they wanted. They being the power structure, the educational structure wanted us to take in to internalize. But the Civil War was wrong. And there were teachers with guts enough to teach it. And nobody paid attention to it. But we got it. We got it very clearly. And in those history lessons and even in math classes, we talked about what was going on outside. In 1955, there was this young preacher down in Alabama named Martin Luther King. I heard about him, too. And we couldn't help but discuss it. Even though we didn't have social media of the type we have today. That nightly news from those three networks. Everybody had a little TV now beginning to watch. And the teachers were helping us interpret what we saw. Sometimes I think they were angry but didn't show it to us. Angry at the structure that limited the facilities that they had and the resources that they had to teach from. You couldn't as a teacher do certain things in the community. You couldn't attend a protest meeting. You couldn't go to an NAACP. You couldn't have an NAACP card. You risk. You risk. If you were caught with those quote, communist organizations that were agitating in the South. You risked your teacher job. You're high, high paying teacher job. So there was a lot of work to do. anger there, I sense from some of the teachers that I worked with that we're going to get you anyway. And Earl Warren said, "Sanglication's wrong." And by George, we're going to tell our kids now, we're going to teach them something about leadership. So we had those extra classes. We had kids like me and others, James Blake and Canadian flood and others who were members of the NAACP Youth Council. And Mr. Hunt and Mr. Gray's and some of those teachers I had always wanted to know what was going on, what are you all doing? And here's what you should be doing. Some of the issues you should be raising. They couldn't do it themselves out lately, but nobody could attack the kids for doing this. See what I mean? It was just a different world. So you know now, right, in reflection that that's what they were doing, but did you know at the time? Not fully. Not fully. But you know, I had for me, and you know, and you know, I was, okay, I was, I was a nerdy because I, you know, I, I thought I was cool with high school. You know, I love making a's in school. Not just the attention to teachers. But I also played football and other kinds of things. Dance and dated girls and had fun and all the other stuff that you expect. A cool high school student would do. But it was very noticeable to me that teachers who were advisors to the honor society kids and teachers who were advisors to leadership groups like the Criterion Club at Birkheit School, those teachers were very much caught up in the civil rights and what was going on around them. And we're constantly saying, you can do well out there one day. And we're going to help you to do well out there one day. You know, so Jean Hunt, yeah, talking to me was my, who was my English teacher in 10th grade. Again, I wasn't paying attention to what was going on in the class. Somebody once said, "Oh, if you had a pension for daydreaming and I did a lot of that." Looking out the windows, seeing an edition going to our high school and watching this May and walk around with this set of drawings under his arms. And he looked like he was in charge. So that fascinated me. So I'm sitting at the back of the class from looking out the window. And I finally asked, "Mr. Hunt, what's that guy doing down there?" And he actually came over and looked and he said, "Harvey, he's an architect." Well, what's an architect? That's not something that was commonly known in the Black community. As I said, you had to be a teacher, a doctor, or a preacher, maybe a lawyer. But an architect? No. Well, I got fascinated with that. I fascinated with the drawing. He was holding, fascinating that he was the leader. He was in charge. And I had a teacher who wanted me to be fascinated with that. Even though it was not as he shared with us and the classroom. That's not something you see Black folks do in Charleston. We don't have any Black architects. I can't even send you to a Black Architect's office so that you could observe what they do. You couldn't shadow one of them. That was just unheard of. But he knew I was interested in it. And so he taught me what they could do in Burk High School. You can take drawing courses. You can take be good in math, work on your math, work on, just found out what it was. And they did that for me. But they did that for other students too. That's right. Based on their interests, right? Yes. Because they saw, and I know this for a fact now, they saw a bigger world for their students. They actually believe that their students, they were going to pay back the system. They were going to pay back the system that restricted their ability to express themselves by sending out students who would not be restricted in any way, shape or form. You know, you bring in that story of brings to mind a conversation that I had with Dr. Johnny McFadden. Dr. McFadden was the first African-American North Carolina teacher of the year. And he's from Wilma, to North Carolina, Yala similar age. When I asked him what made you become, want to become a teacher, he said, you know, at the time I was coming up, they didn't have Harvey Gans. He said, I wanted to be an architect. And since I knew I couldn't be an architect, I said, well, if I can't build buildings, I'm going to build mines. That kind of that remind that makes me think about what you just said there. I was like, wow, there were no real predecessors. But it's interesting that the response from Jean Hunt was not, oh, you can't do that. Oh, let's find you something more more soothing for, for, you know, a black boy in the south, you know, instead it was, okay, you know, we're going to, we're going to compile the skills you need right now, even though the present reality does not reflect that you're your ambition. Here's how you get the skills necessary so that maybe you can be the one. And then taking math became math of the purpose then. Yeah, you know, because I knew that I needed to know some math to be an architect drawing was a natural thing that came to me. But the very fact that they were encouraging me, no discouragement, no, oh, you can't do that. Which is a difference to me in some of the integrated settings we have today. You know, just about all the people in my classroom came from the lower runs of the economic ladder. Same kids did I hear so much about today that we still figured out how to teach right? Right. Yeah, but, but never did we get a suggestion that, oh, Harvey, your dad can't afford to send you to an architecture school. None of that. It was, you want to go after it because there was this whole new world that was opening up to you. And we see it. We see that preacher down in Alabama. We see people beginning to become much more aggressive. We see great lawyers in courtrooms just striking down we can do anything. And for me, the ultimate thing, James, I have to tell this story. Go ahead. Yeah. I had to decide on a school to go to after Burke. And I walked into my guidance counselor office. And this broad next was her name. It was broad. I can't forget. She says, well, they tell me that Jean and Jean and Michael say, and these are two my teachers, said that you were really fascinated with this architecture thing. And that you want to be an architect. And I said, yes, ma'am, I want to design buildings. And she said, where are you going to go to school? I said, well, I want to try to get a scholarship at the A&T. Or maybe Howard. Or maybe Tuskegee. She says, you'll get into all of those schools. And I said, wow, she has a lot of confidence in me. She says, but you're not challenging yourself. Wow. And I was taken aback by that. So what do you mean, you're not challenging yourself. Why aren't you, we already know that 99.9% of the architects of America are white. So why don't you go to school where they go to school? This is post 1954 now. All these teachers are thinking, we want to push you out into this world. She says, let's try, just try out an application to these schools. And she laid out three and four schools. In addition to the traditionally, she started black schools. And I was saying, ma'am, my mind's kind of made up. I'm going to Howard A&T. But let's just follow her path because she was pushing me. And I did. And the more I apply to those schools, the more she said, you can make it there. You can sit in those rooms. See, sitting next to a white student was far and far and all kids who were growing up in the south. That's how it was unknown. We just couldn't do that. When our relatives who went north told us about going to school with white kids. They didn't tell great stories. Right. So we just, she was just, you know, I didn't sound like it was going to be a great thing. But they pushed me. They pushed many of my classmates to do the same thing. Mainly, why? And Cornelius. All those people got into non-traditional careers because they were pushed by teachers who believed in them. You know, you named in our previous conversations that you know when I start talking about your teachers your eyes lit up. I mean they really did and then you said you know I can name all my teachers you know from you know you know and you almost didn't know I don't think you even recognize that you were able to do that because it wasn't like you were committed in the memory as much as their their influence was just indelible even and you said these folks have long passed away but even the folks in this article right you mentioned one of them is Eugene Hunt, Lee Roy Anderson, Frederick Cook, Viola DeVal, Henry Hutchinson these are listed as some of the teachers who have strengthened the curriculum and and orient the school more toward liberal arts and college preparation because we should note here that when all of these industrial schools started popping up in the South post reconstruction right the these schools were not intended to give black folks a true classical education it was to give black folk enough skills where they could find their appropriate place in the seven economy right as as servants and you know do a manual labor in and you know is the lyrics but that's designed the building with the bricks to go see there you go right just and that's the highest aspiration that you should aim for you you are not that's not your place you are not aimed to hide now Harvey right and want to design buildings that's outside the scope of what your role in society is but it's interesting because African American teachers you know they're like okay okay we'll teach that but they found space in these buildings to overthrow and subvert that and to impart that level of ambition to you talk to me about some of your other teachers that you remember that that still um cause you to think finally about them well gene hunt was one Michael graze was my physics and chemistry teacher um he was a very insightful man and and he could he could take the discussion of physics and the personalities their physicists and always turn the conversation around to what are you going to do what are you going to be out there miss LA Maxwell who was my seventh grade teacher would explain to us some of the issues that we were going to face going forward then uh I talked a lot about our sexuality and how in fact in society that could be used against us in lots of sinister ways this was the seventh grade teacher talking to the seventh graders she says because I know right now your hormones are going wild and she was off the subject matter and her job was to teach social studies but she was they they all had an agenda uh the lesson plan I guess is what you call it today that they had to make sure they got across but the extra piece to give that that menu it's incirculum right was it was I call it it was we didn't think of it as we saw the saw it naturally is just drifting into a discussion about how that applies to the world we live in shows relevant and I was getting it from seventh sixth seventh grade by the time I got the high school in eighth and ninth grade you know it was it was just expected that that little extra discussion was always going to go on that old that whole thing about our blackness and what it meant in living in America and it ultimately manifested itself in real ways because when the Greensboro 4 sat down in 1960 we were all seniors in high school we were all seniors in high school knays flood james blake all those people who had gotten this this uh this dosage this dose of of how to live and survive in this new world found a way to act because we were trying to figure out how could we make our views known instead of the teachers pushing us away from what we did because we ultimately ended up protesting and sitting down at a lunch counter right getting arrested and all that stuff um they they didn't push us away from it they always wanted to know what's going on in the youth council meetings what are y'all talking about what are you doing this is the end of the ACP use got right they couldn't come close to being a part of it but they wanted to know what was happening um they offered advice we told them we were practicing nonviolent tactics they weren't saying you guys aren't thinking about demonstrating you got to graduate from high school in three months what are you talking about none of that none of that none of that it was almost as if we trained these guys to think this way and my goodness we're happy to see them with the freedom of thought the intellect whatever that says we can lead and do this and we did and some of the proudest people were in a distra appearance our teachers and it just didn't happen in my class and my sisters followed all of them were getting the same kind of kind of teaching um but you know what I don't the danger in a conversation like this is all the students didn't feel that right right or the danger might be my goodness those teachers were more like Dubois and their approach to their students then say Booker Washington right um and my answer to that is that Burke was a trade school you can you could learn to be a brick mason it might not be true if you wanted to do that and there are kids who have done well in those professions and there are kids today that will do very well in those professions but the differences are teachers the education I got in those segregated schools were transformational in the sacks that we didn't we were taught to think a different way and and and and it was such a reinforcing kind of experience to know that the people you looked up to really felt what was going on and wanted to try to pass it on you know what I mean and that's the counter story as I said that we often don't hear you know usually like most things most situations aren't just one thing it's usually a combination of different factors and so often you've heard the phrase single story becomes the only story and it's about making it more complex than that and figuring out some of the nuances we're gonna take just a brief break we'll be back in a moment I want to talk to you a little bit more um about segregation but also desegregation because the danger of this conversation is that people can look at this and say well are they are they are they endorsing segregation and that's not what's happening either but then also I want to know more about the clubs and extracurricular activities that you talked about and some of the ways um outside of just curriculum that your school your principal and your teachers will be right back so we're back thanks for continuing to join us um in that brief segment we're just talking about some of the dangers right to pitfalls of having a conversation like this is that there can be for listeners maybe some mixed messages it could appear even if unjustified that we're saying oh well the segregated environment was the preferred environment and it has to be stated that even the researchers I talked about before who studied this stuff we all you know everybody can see is that the Supreme Court made the right decision right segregation was a societal evil it was wrong I'll often say was a false market didn't reflect reality and furthermore in a democracy where you're gonna have shared power you gotta learn how to engage with other folks right that being said you know it's not it's not an imperfect story it's not a perfect story rather it's imperfect as contours whereas we might have gotten the things right in terms of conceiting that we need to be able to mix groups and that folks ought not be separated by race I think there were some things we left behind that we probably should have retrieved our crisp emden say um he said we integrated the schools we never integrated the practices and it should be stated there was a huge a massive layoff of black teachers that happened as a result as you because I mean the dominant ideology was still racism right that um you know even if we accept these kids and then really we're talking about you know it's not full on integration it's a percentage of fraction of black kids in some of these white spaces it was very rarely reciprocal now we're not gonna have black teachers teaching white kids because that's just too much you know right right like that's just you know and be referred to as mister and missus by white there's just a whole lot of things that I think probably influenced that environment so we missed all Thank you. great and generational and transcendent instructional practices that you refer to. We sent a lot of black kids into spaces and perhaps even buildings that were better outfitted with better resources but they were missing some of the affirmations and the belief that come from just often tops I'd always been being around folks from your community. The fact that you were black did not give you equal footing as a student in those environments. It's been difficult for me to express this because I've seen so much that makes me believe we're going back to what we fought to get rid of back in the 60s and 70s. But the fact that these kids don't go into schools, respect that as students with a chance to really succeed by the people who've got the ability to change those kinds of opinions into transform those students is the issue. It's always been the issue. When when desegregation started when we combine the schools we sent all kinds of messages. We generally closed the high school that was black closed the school that was in the neighborhood because as you said you're not going to send these black white kids into these black neighborhoods. So right away there is a patina spread across the whole thing that said you know what we are not equal. For some of these were never equal but as people we we were seeing a second class anyway. So integration was something that was done but not in a way that said everybody walking through the portals of this school are in fact potential leaders potential contributors to our society who are going to do well we just have to put the the necessary transformers in place the teachers the principals the administrators that actually believe that. And the reason that that didn't it was the way it was was racism was still there. It's still here today. And so while I believe strongly in integration and not segregation there were things we got in the segregated environment that are woefully missing in the integrated environment. In college it's a little different story for some reason and maybe it's just as bad there in some places now. Yeah talk to me about that. But you know when I went into those Iowa State University classrooms or even into the Clemson University classrooms and I can only speak for my ex-man I never for one minute expected that I wasn't going to do what Miss Broadmax said I was going to do back in high school. Right. Miss Broadmax had me believing that you're so good that you don't have to fear competing against anybody. Wow. So I can walk into a classroom in Iowa State as I did in the first calculus classroom because we didn't have calculus in high school at birth not because there were students that couldn't take the course. It just wasn't offered in our segregated school. It still happened today. And I took a calculus class with kids who had calculus in high school. That didn't deter me from asking the questions I needed to ask of the teacher in front of the other students. I didn't worry about whether or not I was they would think that I was not as good as they were. I would simply say hey I didn't have that so I got to ask this question in order for me to move forward. I didn't mind asking the teacher to stay after class because see I never saw myself as being inferior. I just felt I needed to catch up with some stuff and once I catch up I'm going to be fine. Wow. But how many kids have that at that kind of belief? And I got that belief because I had some teachers back in that segregated school that made me feel good about who I was. And there was no teacher anywhere in the college environment that was going to make me not feel that I wasn't as good. I got to put in some hard work. Right. Right. But I'm going to do it. And that's what's missing today. I see I see so many kids who've been beaten down by that system that they don't try anymore. In fact, they don't want to be smart. I understand. I watch I play a lot of tennis but I watch a lot of kids on the basketball courts in Charlotte, black kids. And I see them playing even when it's getting dark. I'm just shooting that ball and trying to be Michael Jordan. And I often said, well I wish they were as infused with the excitement that comes with academic achievement. But they've been put off. They didn't have that gene hunts and Michael Gray is and people who sort of said, man, you can do this. You can do this. You know what's interesting? You know it's interesting. There's another guy I keep on talking about these smart authors and stuff. But Professor had Duke's name is Angel Harris and he looked, he wrote a book trying to figure out what is the driving force behind the opportunity gap this manifested as they've even got. And he goes to all the traditional arguments, you know, that it's black culture, right? They're so defeated. They recognize that society's, you know, stacked against them that they withdraw. And he says, well historically, if there was ever a time to feel defeated and withdraw, wouldn't it have been all these years after, you know, immediately after enslavement or during segregation, what you find is the opposite. And then he goes to all these series kind of knocking down on all these arguments. And then he says, you know, you know, well, it's that they don't expect, you know, they don't have high educational aspirations. They don't respect the high return on investment from education. And while black kids are super cognizant of the fact that racism is real, when you ask them about the education aspirations, they're actually pretty aspirational. And if you talk to their parents, most of them are armed par with white parents. But then I saw some study the other day. And because of the way education is operated, I'm somebody who lived through you probably gonna laugh integration as well. Right? I grew up in the 80s. But I had I've been on in one of those districts who they didn't exactly comply with the court orders. However, you know, so the assault on the psyche causes you to distrust the whole thing. That's what's going on. And so I might have aspirations. I might actually believe on smart, but I might look at the education system and say, whatever I'm going to be, this thing is not going to help me get there. You know, and and maybe that's the only part of the story and your driver, you know, even without the study of plan, you don't try, you don't try harder anymore because the success has not been there. That's the that's the kind of thing I see with angry parents who have had bad experiences in school systems and integrated school systems. Right. Because these are parents who went after 54. They went to schools that were not in fact encouraging environments for them. And so they didn't do well. And then their children now doing the same thing. So they fear it and they're dropping out. They don't have the enthusiasm of the kid on the basketball court who thinks he's going to be Michael Jordan one day. They they they lack that energy. It's not because they're we all know they're not it's not that they're not intellectually capable. You and I know that we know well. We know that. I can't figure out why other people who are in the educational scene don't know that by now. Because it seems to me that if you knew that if I got 10 kids in front of me, they're going to be a few that might be a slower large group in the middle and they're going to be some really smart ones on the other. You know, if if I were a teacher seems to me, I want to go into the classroom thinking I don't want to go in with the bias that says this kid's black from a certain zip code. He ain't going to do well. Right. I'm not spending the time with him. He's going to even be disruptive. I'm not even going to try to deal with it. I'm going to send him to the office. I'm going to deal with these kids over here who might be the right zip code, right race, whatever, because I believe in Aitley, he does not. She does not have the necessary skills to succeed in this environment. I don't think that's just, you know, again, there's no single story, right? So kind of like a bell curve. Yeah. I don't think that's the mentality of majority of teachers, particularly white teachers, right? I think most white teachers and teachers of color go in at least telling themselves that they believe that. I think you got just like most people, right? Folks who believe that because we've all been raised in that environment and some people going to come in with blood biases and they're more blatant than others. And you got some folk who are really, really progressive in their thinking and they're like, you know, really, they understand what they're up against and they've adopted some of those practices of the teachers of old, right? And I think you got about a 60% of folks in the middle who can be persuaded and maybe built up, but because they're raised in the environment that we've all been raised in and watching the same television shows and reading the same books and seeing the same stuff subconsciously, they do have these biases. And frankly, I'm going to tell you from experience, the side parties, you got black teachers who believe that too, who perpetuate the same nonsense about kids. And you know, who knows better than anybody? The kids, they can pick up on that stuff from a mile away. They can tell if you don't believe in them, they can tell if you're making inherent assumptions about their character based upon how they look or based upon how they speak or whatever the case may be based upon, you know, what neighborhood they're from. And they can tell if the way you're teaching them is really pushing them off of your settling. They know whether you're the Mr. Hunts or the world or whether you're the teacher who says, that's probably above your pay grade, you know, or you can't do that. I'm not going to challenge you to go into that honors of that AP course. Just get you to plow one, get you, you know, decent job and feel the kids know that stuff, even if they can't verbalize it. But I don't think people intentionally set out to hurt people or hurt kids, but I think that in their mind, they got a prototype of who the good and bad kids are. And that's influenced by all the stuff that we talked about. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not as simple as maybe as it was back in the day, I don't like black kids or I don't like Latino kids or I don't like Native American kids. I imagine you couldn't get the job, I guess, if you say it's really, but it does cause me to wonder why is it, and maybe it's just my imagination, James, when I go in and speak in an elementary school, I see a bunch of kids, they scroll out on the floor and I might get there and read a story to them and everybody seems enthusiastic. Everybody. And I look at them like my teachers of oldies, which one's going to be, in fact, I usually ask which one he was going to be a doctor, which one's he going to do this? And everybody just, you know, I go back in sixth grade, seventh grade, I still see some enthusiasm, but not quite as much, not everybody. And so I'm saying, wow, what is the combination of home training and what these kids get in school that causes us enthusiasm to go back? Now somebody find a mind to talk, come on, that's a terrible announcement. Okay. He says, little kids, your own household, you know, when they are five, six, seven, and eight, they are going to be a lot more energetic and they're all going to be cute and light and we all going to look. When they get to be preteens and older, they're not going to be as enthusiastic. So that's not a good analogy, but I keep saying no, there's something in their eyes to me that suggests that something else is going on other than just the maturity that normally happens. There's a cynicism that starts to build in. Is that cynicism drawn from the fact that they do, in fact, believe that the system is gaming them? That they, you know, this is a waste of time. You know, I'm not, you know, I'm not going to, I'm not going to do what, I'm not going to get the promise of what America is all about. I'm not going to, it's not going to happen for me and they've already figured it out by the time they get to junior high. They've already failed the end of grade testing or whatever, but then we can't catch them because it's, it troubles me. And I swear, I think I saw that more, I see that more than I remember. Now, Stahls, it can be damning. Then I remember from back there. I don't think you're wrong. You know, speaking, speaking again from experience and my first year of teaching eye contact, a kid like that, right? So it was her. It's just back in Illinois. And he's a freshman. And he just looks so, he looks so veteran. You know, so you're, you're way, you're way younger than I am, but he just had to look like he had already experienced some things and like, you know what I mean? Like he wasn't a rookie. And when trying to talk to him about, you know, trying to do, I wasn't that great of a teacher my first year, I don't think anybody was trying to engage them in these conversations about what you want to be. Her looked at me like I was a fool. It's like, man, he's like, you know, like, listen, I already know as soon as his legal for me to be gone, I'm out of here, right? And he, he was going to carry on a family legacy, which was, you know, the underground economy. What I appreciated about that was he wasn't stupid. I need to say that. Her was not stupid. Like most kids, he's a rational actor. Based upon information he had received, he said, listen, this, I'll be at illegal. It's probably my best alternative to get ahead. And I'd be remissed if I didn't say he's not lying, right? In some ways, right? The stuff that you're assessing is, it's not fiction, right? Even if I don't endorse that path, even if I think there's another way I can appreciate your size and the situation up in that way. And he wasn't the, he was the first, but he wasn't the last kid that you come across like that, who have enough native intelligence to kind of looking and they're like, they're instinctual sociologists. They're looking around like, I see how this is set up. So here's what I'm going to do, right? I'm going to break away from the folkways. I'm going to break some more rays here. And I'm going to get money this way. And that's very short-sighted, or I'm going to pursue this lifestyle, but I don't, I don't ever want to retreat from the fact that I understand that, man. You know, like I can, I don't agree with the conclusion, but I can empathize with how you got there. And there's a bunch of young folk who I think particularly in integrated environments, when you talk about how your teachers gave you a window into a different world, they don't get that window. And so what they see is basketball, right? Television entertainment, and maybe some other pathways that are unsavory, but boy, I mean, they're basing it on what they're seeing, and so I kind of understand it. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, it makes a lot of sense, but, but where is the intervention that comes in that, how do you redirect that? Who should be trying to redirect that? Yeah, you know, we talk about ministers maybe, and maybe having them see through a religious route, or a teacher that they have some confidence in that they believe in, right? Or some friend or somebody who is succeeded, who can tell them a little bit about consequences and alternative paths. I mean, it is one thing to say, yeah, my logical route is to go into the illegal economy, because I'm not going to, you know, go in this other route, they made for me, they don't want me here, they're going to give me a piece of paper that's not going to be meaningful to me, I'm not even going to make minimum wage. So I don't want to live that way. Not under the America with plenty. I'm not going to live that way, so I'm going to do, I'm going to be the American gangster, you know, because even risking my life or shortening my life span, which, you know, many of them also see, is a better existence. The question is, where are the turnaround artists? Right, right. Where are the people who really are sincere enough that they really say, you know, Earl or Jacob, whoever it is, who we're dealing with or Mary, who's going to give the time? And maybe that's, maybe that's part of the problem is we don't have time to do it. We don't, and then teaching as a profession is lost, it's lusted, right? I mean, many of them are overworked as it is going above and beyond, even if they don't have the tools. And I often think that best teachers sometimes, we don't come out of our teacher prep programs with the realistic understanding of the world or the kids in the communities that we're put in front of. So that's the deficit you're working from. Time is at a premium because it takes so much time already. But the stuff that influenced me because I wasn't that great, Harvey, you know, I, you were probably cool. I was not, I didn't do great in school. I went to school to goof around, but it was the extracurricular stuff, the clubs and stuff. The stuff that you couldn't learn in the classroom, you could get in those other spaces. That was the way I used to operate too. Well, stand after school for your pop club, right? Or stand after school for culture club, you know, or, you know, and that's the way that we talk about. Or even athletics. Let me let's just be honest. Okay. The club designed me long. There was a criteria in club that was a leadership club. The idea was you join it and you're going to be a leader in your classroom or in some way, shape performance. So they taught you leadership skills. You had to get up and learn how to talk for a group and crazy stuff like that. And you know, a couple of teacher advisors, the other society was another normal, normal one. But a lot of people found themselves accidentally through the athletic and never. I know we don't like to talk that, but it was more than just tackling and catching football. It was more than just that. It was more than that. We had, we had the same kind of, same kind of guys who were teaching us out of block and tackle. We're also talking about what was going on out there in the big group. Okay. Okay. And we didn't have a lot of people aspiring to go through the NFL one day. Oh, okay. We had people who said, man, you're good enough. You can go to Sound Carolina State College and get a job. You could be a teacher one day. Okay. That's a different orientation. I mean, I was just talking to a couple of people the other day. We were Sound Carolina State graduate. that became teachers or Johnson C Smith graduates who got to where they got to through the athletic process. But there it wasn't the kind of, it wasn't what it is today. It's athletics is a big time business proposition. Even in high schools we're learning that. Some kind of things. But I'm saying those clubs including athletics seemed to have had an effect. I mean if you were a member of the Criterion Club in Burk High School, you know that meant people, because the people in the club, the people who come in and they kind of got a little kind of a highfalutin. But being picked meant somebody recognized your, your innate skills or thought that you were going to be a great person to have. As a part of that, on a society was just a normal one. There were other different kinds of groups. For me it was a couple of those kinds of clubs, the Parvanoe which is a school newspaper. And of course they talked in those newspapers about what was going on around. Wow. The evils of segregation. I mean they didn't mind putting it. Because nobody outside of that structure paid any attention. So writing skills were kind of improved by some of the people who wanted to be on the newspaper. So now you got journalists coming out of this organization. But for me it was those clubs and athletics, you know, and they rounded you. But let me go back to something. And this is a little bit off your subject. This thing about time. And who in fact presents the alternative to a child or to a group of children. Or gives that spark that says there is a light at the end of this tunnel. There's a way you can go. If you don't get it in church, you, you. Maybe there's another outside group but rarely in our case was there. I wonder today where the kids might get that alternative. The alternative may be a gang. Absolutely. Yeah. Maybe a gang. But there are other alternatives to sure. Sure. Sure. And a large part of what influenced me that we have not mentioned here. Our parents. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you don't have enough time. But if you can transmit to parents what you're trying to get Johnny to do. What you're trying to get married to do. Maybe the tenant that maybe the parent thinks you're sincere. So James really is a teacher who seems to care about my son. And I don't know a parent who does not care about their children. I don't care how bad they are. Even the ones that they say walk away from their kids. They love their kids. But they, you know, they just they messed up. Most people care. And I guess what I'm saying is my, you heard the story. I heard the story a thousand times. My parents had no formal education. But they had disbelieved that their kids could do well. So they reinforced a lot of what Maxwell, Mays, Hill, Hutchinson, all those teachers said. They reinforced it because they wanted to promise what the country could offer to be made real. To their kids, not so much for them, but for their kids. I still think that's the answer. Even today, because James Ford is only going to have so much time. But if he can transmit a little bit to that parent if he has ever seized them to say, "Man, I really care about your son. I shall hope you care about him this much." I hear the things I see happening with him. He maybe had in the wrong direction, but he's a smart kid. I never hear us talk enough about how parents can be utilized in a way to help. And parents do a lot. And I'm not saying that I do anything now. But that never is enough of a focus. I think you're right. Enough of a focus. Especially when they're young. One of the things that some researchers have discovered is that there was, to your point, totally different environment of parental engagement. And the school sought as their responsibility to get out there, right, to beat the streets. So a couple of ways was, the school was the center of the community much in the same way that the church was. So, man, all the chorus concerts and plays and productions and everything, those were community events. Absolutely. And so parents came to support, but also to engage and guess what? When they were there? Principal's going to say, "Oh, yeah, parents, why we got you here? "One to tell you about what's going on in the classroom. "And here's how you can support your kid at home." When they had a captive audience, there was an intention by having folks there. Sidow Walker talks about the principal at the school in Caswell. And how he, this is back in the 30s and 40s, the expectation was that the teachers, even some who didn't even live in that town in that county were expected to spend some time going out and showing up at the doors of their kids, houses. And we tend to think that all parents were welcome. And they said, "Sometimes parents might listen to kids say, "Don't call them my house. "My dad never said, "They're going to shoot you off. They show up." And they said, "Oh, okay, I guess what? They would show up anyway." And didn't nobody get shot. But I say all that to say, it hasn't always been a welcome presence there either. But the expectation that you bring parents along with it, you go with parents on this journey to where the education is something that was always there. I want to end on a note that I end up on my interviews on. The thing I always love about talking to you, and I'm often astounded by it, is that, "Man, you've seen a lot, right? A lot of good, a lot of bad. "I think you've seen enough and accomplished enough in your life to both be inspired." And also, you wanted to, man, you could be real jaded, however you wanted to. But every time we end the conversation, you always sincerely come across as hopeful for the future. And so, I like to end by asking, "What is your radical imagination?" And radical imagination is the concept that, yes, you acknowledge the present reality in all of its contours. But you engage in a rebellious idealism about what could be. So, what is your radical imagination? You've always been an optimist, you know, because I've seen a lot. I've seen people come from very humble circumstances and do well. Not just in my family, but all around me. I've seen people overcome adversity and achieve. Some of it has to do, a lot of it has to do with your faith, what you believe. I absolutely firmly believe that America's best days ahead of it, that we are, we go to these points in our history where it seems like we are, as we say now, more divisive, more. But it may be the bloodletting that starts to necessarily get us to get the wounds to heal a little bit more. Obama came along and then came Trump. Maybe they were two opposites dealing with the same issue, though. And now we may have to, we may have to really get to that point of reconciliation, talking about race, how it has been such a cancer in our society. But I'm a believer that, and I've used this over and over in this discussion, that what America promises to its citizens can still be made real for all of its citizens. And that ought to be the idea of anybody who wants to serve in public office, anybody who wants to educate our children, anybody who wants to make society better. You see, we can't make it better for any group of people. We can't make it better for some religious sect over here. We've got to make it better for everybody. And so I wake up every morning, just happy to be alive, happy to be able to try to influence making it actually better. Because I saw where we came from as a family, the Gantt family. I see where many of my friends came from and where they are today. And most of them live a happy life, and I live. I'm a basically happy person. I don't go around with a long face. I see problems, and I won't ignore them. The thing is to try to deal with them and try to make them better. And so when people talk about how Charlotte can be better, Charlotte can make a name for itself, which is what we all try to want to do in this community. It want to be the best. Make a name for itself by saying, "Man, we've got a public school system that educates all of our children." And then a poor kid from a poor zip code area of the town actually can be fed, housed, educated, such that they can stretch out and say, "I'm reaching for you." for this new world that's opening up for us. I gotta believe that, 'cause my life is like that. And I'm not selfish, I don't want it just for me or my children, I really wanted for everybody. So no matter how bad it looks, it can get better. And I'm just motivated by that. - Well, I think you embody the spirit of those teachers. - You're making me, I don't wanna feel like this. - No, no, and you know, you always, you always hear what I mean. They were preparing you for a world that didn't exist. And in the same way that I, you know, I know you don't like me, he been accolades on you, but sincerely, I consider the honor to be able to talk with you because I grew up listening to my elders. I grew up around my grandparents and I went to the old folks barber shop. I didn't go to the young people barber shop. You know, I used to have to sit there and be quiet and listen, and so I understand the virtue and the wisdom of listening to my elders because I know that at one point in time, my elders are gonna transition, they're gonna be our ancestors. So I don't take likely the opportunity to learn from you and very happy and proud that you allow me to call you my mentor. So thank you for taking the time today. - Thank you for what you're doing. - Appreciate you, sir. - I can play golf or tennis, which really is there for you. (laughing) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - It should be stated for the record that there is ample evidence of the positive long-term impacts of attending desegregated schools for black students. In short, more integrated schools yield many material benefits. Journalists in the coal henna Jones deserves an immense amount of credit for putting this issue back on the national radar. Among the many scholars, record Johnson has tackled this issue in a very empirical way. His new book, Children of the Dream, Why School Integration Works, takes a deeper look at the life outcomes of those who live the experience in the myriad ways their lives are better for it. I am one of those students and will always be grateful and on guard against segregation, whether it be state sanctioned or otherwise. This episode was made possible by the generous contribution of Dell Ruff and logistical support from Jamaica Anderson of the Charlotte, Meckmanburg Library. Stay tuned for our next episode. Look forward to talking to you then. (upbeat music)