The House of Ramesses II: Egypt's Greatest Pharaoh?

Ever wondered why the Romans were defeated in the Chutaburg forest? What secrets lie buried in prehistoric Ireland? Or what made Alexander truly great? With a subscription to History Hit, you can explore our ancient past alongside the world's leading historians and archaeologists. You'll also unlock hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a brand new release every single week covering everything from the ancient world to World War II. Let's visit historyhit.com/subscribe. Hello from Abu Simbal, one of the greatest Egyptian temples surviving today. I'm currently here with about 30 kilometres from the border with Sudan and I'm staring at four colossal statues of Ramesses, the second of Ramesses, the great. Very much him showing this image that he was divine, that he was a great builder and that he was the man in charge of this land, of the area of what was known as Lower Nubia. It's his story that we're covering today, his rise to prominence. What do we know? Well, to talk through it all, I was delighted to interview the one and only Dr Campbell Price from Manchester Museum. Let's go. It's 3,315 years ago and a young Egyptian prince walks through a towering monument. Ears add the prestigious ancient city of Beeps in Upper Egypt, the capital of famous phoeronic predecessors, like Thutmo's III and had Shebset. The home of a renowned temple complex dedicated to Egypt's chief god, Ammon. Its name, Ipetsut, Karnak. The young prince walks through the newest great building being constructed at the sanctuary, commissioned by his father, the current Pharaoh. The interior is a dense forest of columns, more than a hundred in total, each over 15 metres in height, closely spaced and supporting a large roof above, with slits high up in the walls to let in beams of sunlight. This great hall was to be a centre of ceremonies and rituals for Ammon, where only the Pharaoh, his family and his closest entourage could enter. This newest sacred space for Ammon is not yet complete. The prince still needs to be added, reliefs of pharaohs, gods and offerings still need to be carved into the walls and columns, paint still needs to be applied. But the work is underway. As the prince walks through the hall, the sounds of workmen grow louder. He exits the northern entrance and sees a great cluster of builders. They are gathered around the exterior wall, busy carving reliefs into it. The prince recognizes the scene instantly. There in the wall is his victorious father, larger than any other figure, riding a chariot. There are countless captives bound in front of him, a river filled with crocodiles and a city under siege. The scene records his father's most recent military venture up into Syria and the great bastion of Kadesh, a city hotly contested between the Egyptians and the northern rivals, the Hittites. The campaign had proven a success. The prince's father had returned to Egypt in a stronger position, consolidating his family's new hold over the throne. Settie was his name, Pharaoh Settie I. But his young son, then overseeing his father's achievements, being immortalized in stone, was none other than Ramesses. Soon to be Pharaoh Ramesses II. Ramesses the Great. In this episode, we are going to cover this early story of Ramesses, how his family, including both his father Settie and his father before him, became Pharaohs of Egypt after a period of turmoil for this Bronze Age superpower, laying the foundations for Ramesses and his extraordinary reign. A reign that included great battles, buildings and so much more. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host, and this is the story of the rise of Ramesses with our guest, Dr. Campbell Price. Campbell it is such a pleasure to have you back on the show. Hello Tristan, it's nice to be back. And we've done episodes in the past at your work home, Manchester Museum, and now you're down in our lovely studio in London. And to talk about the rise of Ramesses II, first of all, and his dynasty, the 19th Dynasty. Yes, I mean, Ramesses II is a well-known household name, but it's interesting to consider how he became the Great and why people later thought he was so great. I mean, a 66 year reign, isn't that correct? Yeah. It's a great time. And normally if someone says Ramesses II or Ramesses II, the Great, he might think, this is the pinnacle of ancient Egypt. This is when it's at the top of its military might, its wealth, its art and architecture. Is that a fair assessment? Some would tell you some rather unchargedful people might say it well past the zenith of ancient Egypt in terms of artistic production. And there is a sense, I'm sure, come up as we're talking, that Ramesses II is trying to recapture a few centuries before when Egypt was really expanding, not as much an empire I hesitated to use the word empire, but it's kind of fuel of influence. So he's trying to influence people in places, neighboring countries, neighboring cultures in ways his predecessors would have. So actually he's kind of looking back to a golden age of years past in a revival time almost. Yeah, he's got a bar, I think, in his head, where he's trying to reach back to it. So yeah, we're talking about the 1200s, BCE, but you know, 1300s, 1400s, you're really getting the, for one of the better term, the imperial conquest. And paint us a bit more of a picture briefly before we delve into the details. A quick picture of Ramesses the man, what we should get an idea of how we should picture him before we delve into the origins of Israel and of his family. Well, as you already said, he is exceptional because he rules for 66 years with one exception, he's probably the longest reigning Egyptian Pharaoh. So given it was a dangerous job being the king of any ancient power, you must have some personal charisma and command to not be attacked, you know, rebelled against or been bumped off by your family. So I think he knows his grandfather. He follows in a fairly new dynasty, a kind of arabic group of military people and he has 100 children. Wow. Okay, you save that. We'll save that till his later in. But as a boy, he must know he's destined for greatness. That's not simply a back projection from when he becomes king as some other pharaohs. Imagine as if they had been selected from the, from the egg, they conquered in the egg. That is something that said of other kings. Amuses the second as a prince really does seem to be groomed for greatness and when he gets the chance when his father eventually dies, he really goes for it on quite scale. This is a man whose royalty throughout his life, you know, he's not the man who wins a coup or anything like that. No, exactly. Yes, exactly. So he's to himself, he's blue-blooded, but the family, they're fairly new kids on the block, given the previous dynasty. The 18th dynasty is a long stretch of very interesting characters. Well, the 18th dynasty, that is where we need to begin. So we're going back more than a century before Ramesses' reign. And the 18th dynasty, it is full of these incredible, large and life figures, isn't it? Tutankhamun, Hatshepsut, Nefertiti, Akhenarsum. Paint us a picture of the 18th dynasty quick. Oh, well, that's very difficult. Okay. So you get some heavy hitters early on. So you have essentially the war of liberation against the Hicksos, these northerners who have ruled Egypt and who need to be expelled. And that happens, that really heralds the beginning of the 18th dynasty, about 1500 and something. BCE, and that's Akmozi. Akmozi, we're now calling him the second. He used to be called Akmozi the First. But because we've discovered an earlier Akmozi, we're calling him Akmozi the Second. Then he initiates a line of not necessarily blood relations because we get Amin Houtip the First who's a son of Akmozi. But then we get Tutmozi the First. So he's a real warrior king. And he not only repels foreign invasions, he doesn't just expel people like Akmozi the First, but he actively seeks to expand that field of influence, that sphere of influence, V Egypt. And I think it's that that sets the precedent for Ramesses to look back on. The Haudenosaite, it's a time of kind of wealthy art and architecture, amazing structures like the obelisks, warrior kings, but also powerful queens as well like Hatshepsut. So as you mentioned right at the start, this actually feels like the real zenith of ancient Egypt, rather than the 19th dynasty that follows. Yeah, I think that's feeling kind of rough terms if we're thinking about success as artistic quality. And that's very subjective, of course, criterion. and how much actual gold there is in the treasury. So Tupo is the third as an important character. He's sometimes called the Napoleon of Ancient Egypt. Expansionist, he is working in concert with his aunt, his stepmother, Hatchip suit, the female pharaoh, who rules for 20 odd years. By his side, much has made of the potential rivalry, the cookie cutter impression of the wicked stepmother. Forget it. The relationship is much more complicated than that. But setting the precedent for Ramses II, Tupo is the third, leaves things in pretty good condition. His son, Ammon Houtip the second, pretty good. By the reign of Ammon Houtip the third, you do get the impression that he's just sat down just enjoying being luxurious. Because his forefathers have done it for him. He is not really going out doing battle. And then maybe the decadence sets in. And so his son is Ammon Houtip the fourth, better known as Akinaten. And he is an unapologetic weirdo for an ancient Egyptian king. He kind of reps up the rulebook to an extent. And then much is made, although I'm not sure how plausible I find this. Much is made of the fact that we have an archive from the reign of Akinaten and the end of the reign of Ammon Houtip the third that talks about foreign diplomatic exchange. So you have a sense of, again, we're using modern terms which I probably don't apply, a foreign office which basically has Tunea formed, the so-called Ammonilators, that talk about, please my brother because they're all calling the kings of the. This brotherhood of kings is the king of the Levant, of the Bronze Age, that part of the world. They are asking for the Egyptian king to say gold because gold is as plentiful as sand. You know, send me a real gold statue, a solid gold statue, not just a plated gold statue. Send me cherry, it's send me all the nice stuff. But there is a sense in which, and it may be typical, we don't have the other side of the dialogue. But there is a sense that the Egyptian king Akinaten is maybe not doing as much as he could to maintain Egyptian imperial positions. And that is important because there does seem to be a law in Egyptian foreign influence in the Levant. And it is that ultimately that the dynasty of Ramses, the second seeks to reestablish it. Exactly. So this almost steady decline of the 18th dynasty following Futmo's III, isn't it? We're going to explore. And you mentioned source material there, like heathers, letters and Kuneiform. And do we have quite a rich array of source material for learning about the 18th dynasty? And the latter half of the 18th dynasty, as we get to the rise ultimately of the House of Remesies. Well, we're so dependent on official proclamations, which are given a flavor, shall we say, for being positivist, that give of some kind of flavor, but they don't recount the detail anything like the way a historian would want today. But you're right that those Kuneiform tablets, the immoran letters, offer a really fascinating insight, because these are one-on-one discussions. This is the queen of Egypt, rights, or the king of Egypt, rights to their opposite number. So you get a sense of the geopolitics of the time, but it's shrouded in decorum, what is appropriate to see in certain contexts. And we only really have one side of the discussion. So if we have, let's say, Egypt at its height under Futmo's III, ruling an empire at that time, how big an empire should we be thinking of? And I want to ask that question first of all, because if we then fast forward to let's say the reign of Akinaten, so we can get a real sense of how that empire is already transforming by that Pharaoh by the time of Akinaten and Hoteb the fourth. Yeah. So purely in terms of geographical extent, and again, I emphasize, I wouldn't think of it as an empire like the Roman Empire of the British Empire, but it's an area of influence. Egypt itself, it should always be stressed, is the perfect country. So Egypt bordered naturally by the Mediterranean, by the deserts, by the cathartis, to the south, the Aswan, is ideal. You don't need, Egypt doesn't need to expand, it's already perfect, say it by the gods. But to the north, in the reign of Futmo's III, you know, those areas of influence up to the Euphrates. So it's a big stretch of up into what is now more during Syria and Iraq, to the south, deep into what is now Sudan, to the west, of course, there's Libya, and we'll come back to Libya because Ramassad really makes a point of that as well. And so these are the kind of the natural extents of ancient Egyptian exploitation. So they want stuff. They're not interested really in everyone believing in the Egyptian way of life. Yes, there are elite, key people that pay homage to the king, and say, "Intribute." But they want stuff, they want materials, they want gold, they want access to metals, to exotic products, to people. There's exploitation of people, of course. They're enslaved people in all of this. But maybe not quite of the character that maybe we've been led to think in scriptural sources. And so that's hidden at its height. I mean, so how does it decline by the time we get to Akinat? In a few decades, quite a few decades later, isn't it? Yes, so if we think so, Tumors is in the 1400s, Akinat and is the mid 1300s. So 67 to 80 years later, there is a lot of ping ponging who's on between. So if you're a kind of small state in the south of modern Syria, say, and you've got the Egyptians who claim, you know, control, or some kind of nominal control of your land, and want you to say "Intribute," that's fine if they come and they have a military sortie and they beat you up. But then when the Egyptians withdraw back to their capital, Memphis, this will be important later. Then they're quite far away from the south of Syria. And then this is almost the northern capital as well, isn't it? Yeah, that's the apex of the delta, whether the delta meets the valley in Egypt. But then if you've got the Hittites, who are the north of Syria, you've got peoples to what is now in modern Turkey, you've got the Assyrians more towards the west. When they come and threaten you, you'll immediately change loyalty to the person, the big bad wolf that's closer to you. So the Egyptians always had a problem about exerting influence from so far away, and maybe that led to a shift in the the notional capital, which was affected by the 19th dynasty. So that's interesting. So do you therefore see as those decades go on in the 18th dynasty, do you see those new powers like the Hittites, like the Assyrians becoming more prominent and Egypt, in contrast, these rulers become a bit more obsessed with the luxuries, this idea of decadence and so on. And so Egyptian power on the, well, the Bronze Age world stage does diminish, and the other powers like the Hittites does grow at that time. Yes, there's definitely a sense of the expansion and the kind of awakening of other powers. But you're right to say that by the reign of Aminotic the third, so again, 1300s, there is this sense of the international court. So yeah, internationalism, it's a sign of kind of cosmopolitan life at court for the wealthy. But while people are enjoying the latest imported pottery and very fine designs and jewelry, other military things might be slipping. And that is in proportion to the ambition of other powers. Okay, so what follows Akinaton? It doesn't end well for Akinaton, does it? Yeah, you could say that as well. We don't know what exactly happens. Akinaton's very experimental. The experiment backfires. And they have to undo all the revolutionary. We're sorry, very briefly, this experimental stuff. I know there's another episode to decide where I will. Right, so Akinaton decides there are no gods but the sun god, a special form of the sun god. And he is the unique interlocutor with the sun god, the Aton. So that's why he changes his name from Aminotic, the god Amin is satisfied to Akinaton, effective for the Aton. And then for gosh, 15, 16, 17 years, he and his immediate successors to a degree were not quite sure of espoused the worship of the Aton and they close all the other temples. So quite apart from it just being a religious revolution, it is an economic challenge. Because imagine you're the high priest of the god Amin and the king says, nope, we're closing the temple of Karnak. Okay, man. This has always been the economic self-destruction at the same time. Yeah, I mean people have compared it to Henry V, and monasteries, and you know, trying to rest power from these religious institutions into the hands of the king, which I think there's good argument that that's what Akinat is trying to do. But it creates all kinds of issues. Anyway, Akinat and says he himself is going back to, well, going back, going to a new virgin site, his capital city, what we call a mononau, the city of Ackhitt, hence the mononilettics that you make. Exactly. This is the source of the so-called diplomatic correspondence in the foreign office. But so that settlement in Middle Egypt is the home of the king. It's where the king and the elite are going to be buried. And you get the sense that Akinat has really kind of sequestered himself away at Amarna and is ignoring other things where traditionally the king and ancient Egypt moved around. It was a period of a court as in other traditions, the king moves around to keep an eye on people to make sure that they're loyal. Who knows what else is happening in Egypt at this time, but the court is focused in Middle Egypt. So you could see that the letters are arriving Saint Akinat and we could do with your help. If you want to maintain your presence in this part of the Lovant, then please send help. And he doesn't seem to send help. He doesn't. So the lamb bells are ringing. It feels a bit of a tumultuous time inside Egypt and beyond for a different influence. So what follows him? I mean, how do we get to these last big figures in the 18th Dynasty? And I guess this gradual decline that follows? Well, the biggest name in terms of historical caches, of course, Titton Carmen. Titton Carmen, OK. So Titton Carmen, by most accounts, is the son of Akinat, right? And he comes to the throne. We can be as sure as we can be sure at nine or ten years old. Oh, dear. Well, he's a little boy and he is being controlled by kind of revisionist. Politicians for one of a better term who want to backtrack on the revolution. And so all of this is put in the words of the boy king. I have restored the temples and where the gods, you know, abandoned and ignored Egypt. I have, I have propitiated them and put things back to how they were. Of course, a ten year old boy is not getting in a chariot, really. Maybe towards the end of his life in his later teenage years, he is there is evidence that Titton Carmen does engage in some kind of military activity. But there must be powers, and we know there are powers, military powers that are not blood relations of the royal family who are thinking right, we need to get some action going here to reclaim or at least to maintain some of these again, areas of influence. I don't think it's trying to defend the empire because I think the empire, such as it was, had already frayed. It is about trying to push those trade alliances, areas of influence. It's going to be like military advisors at court, kind of thing, or actual active commanders in the field, active commanders in the field. And so those people who usually would be kind of subordinate advisors to the king really rise in prominence. So it didn't come and dies, however he dies, believe what you want, chariot accident, malaria killed by hippo, whatever, we'll never know. But then he's succeeded by this kind of shadowy elder figure, the god's father, I, who rules for a couple of years, a Y isn't it? Yes, a Y or a Y he, he is very odd. And then he eventually is succeeded by an out-night military man. And this is your man, Horomhe. Now this is a very interesting figure. So what do we know about Horomhe? So Horomhe comes from non-royal backgrounds as far as we can tell. He must of course be a mover and a shaker. He's in the royal court. But he clearly we know from the extensive preserve, the evidence of his tumet secara where he built a really impressive tomb chapel to celebrate his eternal cult. He was then in charge of the military. So he says he's the chief of the soldiers, the fighting men. He's also in charge of building works. And I think this is important to understand Horomhe. He is not just a military man. He's in charge of the recruits and the recruits are guys who can equally be sent on a campaign to beat people up as they can be sent to a quarry, as they can be sent to a mine. So you're in charge not just of, you know, military personnel, but you're in charge of people. And so he's unusual. Horomhe is unusual because we've got statues of him where he's very proudly writing things down as a scribe. So don't think of him as a kind of meathead guy who's who's just a bit of a brute. I think he's intelligent. He's clearly someone who understands the workings of the state and who is proud of his ability as an administrator. So he really has an all-rounder. And so when the throne eventually passes to him, you know, he's in charge for almost a couple of decades, he has a long reign. So he's again holding the reigns of power. And he is the one who really goes back and tries to scrub out evidence of Akhenaten or begins that process. And he is, you know, he is a military usurper. So the fact that then he has a success, oh, you took a big breath there. Yeah, I mean, that sounds dramatic, but I don't think you're far from the truth. And so he instigates what is essentially a military coup. Yes, yes. And the state of the army at that time, because I can imagine almost horror-heavy if he's staged this coup, then he needs substantial support amongst the army itself. Do we know much about what the army look like at this time? Is it split around the place? Is it professional? What should we be imagining? So compared to earlier periods, say the middle kingdom, you know, you know, a few hundred years before, when we know there are military raids going on down into Nubia up into the Levant, it seems that to raise an army, you basically go around and say, come on, chaps, who wants to fight. Whereas by the end of the 18th dynasty, there is a professionalization. So you will say, I'm a charioteer. My father was a charioteer. So there must be a hesitate to say a military class, but there are a group of people whose ancestors have fought and done some pretty impressive things, possibly in the 18th dynasty. So yes, I think there is a professionalization. And maybe these people have been in the reign of Akinat and possibly sitting around with nothing to do. And you could imagine someone like Horumheb organizing these people in a charismatic figurehead, right? Yeah. And in Horumhebs first, because he has two tombs, because he becomes a fair one, therefore takes a tomb in the valley of the kings down at Thebes. But in his first tomb, he's shown, you know, engaged in things to do with military activity under Tutankhamen. So we should understand that Tutankhamen is the nominal, the notional patron. He's sending off the the trips into battle, but it's Horumheb, who's actually doing it and commanding them. He's the one who probably has the respect more of the actual soldier around. Sure. And soldiers, why should we be thinking the chariots for the elites and then every day, Egyptian soldiers, archers or infantry, not too much equipment? Yeah. So remember, we're still in the bronze age. You're fighting with bronze metal weapons. This is not the Iron Age yet in Egypt. You are going into battle years of footsold you're with a shield, which is pretty important, a dagger or a sword and an axe. Oh, an axe. So you're going to axe someone. But you should also, I guess, remember that the chariot is still a fairly modern invention. It's a couple hundred years old. And I think we think of Ancient Egypt as always having used chariots, but they've come into Egypt from the north, maybe brought with the the Hicksawson, these wars of liberation. And those are only a couple of hundred years before. So Horumheb has the connections, the elite military connections with other generals, that's important. And then, as you say, he probably has the loyalty of the footsolders, the infantry. It's so interesting we've Horumheb because so often in ancient history, you might see, a dynasty, a rolled figure, be toppled by a military figure. But then so often, right after that, either that military figure proves incapable of being an administrator and ruling, or you see it just break out into other generals think, actually, I don't respect you as my leader anymore. I'm going to try and seize power myself. So you see a breakdown into civil war, the fracturing of kingdoms and so on. So does that make Horumheb's achievement even greater? The fact that he does reign for a long time and does prove to be quite an effective ruler? Based on the evidence, always there's a caveat. Based on the evidence that we have, of course, the ruler is on her bound to describe themselves as the best in God given and doing everything very effectively. They're not recording negative things, but still you do get the sense that Horumheb is an effective ruler. The one thing that he lacks is an air, a male air. And this is again some responsible thinking for any ruler. If you don't have an air, you don't have a spare, you don't have a male descendant, blood descendant. You have to make plans to make it absolutely clear who is going to be the next king because you could drop dead at any moment. Is adoption a thing at the time? Yes, adoption is a social practice in Egypt. It's an important social practice. So at that level, I mean, it's relatively unusual that kings have many wives go somehow managed to produce a male heir, but Horumheb for whatever reason doesn't have surviving male, surviving sons. So he adopts for one of a better term, this chap, Pa Ramesu, who is the vizier, the Chati, the kind of chief minister, but also has a military background. And he is from that we know a bit about him, his background, his father, Ceti, based in the Eastern Nile Delta, so the family hometown is known about. And so he has the great advantage of having a living son and probably a living grandson. So there is a line ready. So maybe these guys are just mates, they're just friends from the battlefield, but maybe there are other strategic social political reasons. So we can presume that I mean, Horumheb choosing his heir and Pa Ramesu, you know, probably was a loyal subordinates in the close circle, but also aside from that loyalty, someone who had that family line, sure. We don't know if he had any connection to the role family of older told you. You could expect that if you didn't have a connection, you'd want there to be a connection by marrying a random princess of royal blood. That was quite effective and it tended to be the blue blooded women who really made the king who really confirmed the legitimacy of the line. So is Pa Ramesu, can I clue in the name? Is he the beginning of this new dynasty of the 19th dynasty? Yes. And what he told us is called the Ramaside Age because he is as king when he becomes king. For a short time for a couple of years, he takes the name Ramases and he becomes Ramases the first. Because we always hear about Ramases the second, don't we? But we don't hear about Ramases the first. And do we know much about his reign? It's short lived, as you say, but do we know much? It's short lived. He has ambition. You know, he starts a very nice tomb in the Valley of the Kings, which has to literally be cut short because he only lives a couple of years. But something about Ramases the first, so we are using these names, which are the people in questions, birth names. So the parents of Ramases the first call him Pa Ramesu, which means literally he of the sun God. Wow. But his name as king, he takes on a series of names, but the names, the ancient Egyptians would have known these people by is the throne name, the pre-Noman as opposed to the Noman, the Noman is your birth name, what your family might call you. But the throne name for Ramases the first is telling, so he's called Men Pechti Reh. So that means literally the strength of the sun God is established or establishing the strength of the sun God. So Pechti means strength. And we know that the first king of the 18th dynasty, Archmoze II, who's this military guy, he's called Neb Pechti Reh. So there's this reference to strength. And we know also that the family are from this part of the Eastern Delta in the north of Egypt, where the God Seth is the local patron. Now who's the God Seth? Now Seth, we've encountered him before you, but Seth is kind of the yang to the yang of Horus. So he's often described in very negative terms because he's a god of storms and he tries to do nasty things to his nephew, but he's also great of strength. The God Seth is emblematic of this kind of brute uncontrolled, voracious strength on the battlefield. So the fact that Ramases the first takes that name, I think, is politically and religiously the tour and connected. And so he originates, his family originates from the north of Egypt. Yes. He becomes Pharaoh at that time. Does he have to really relocate himself further south because you mentioned the value of the kings earlier? Yes. Although Horum heb is buried much further north at Sikara, but is it at that time that Luxor and ancient Thebes is the main center of Egypt? Yes, though I should say Horum hebs tomb is abandoned in the north because he's not really buried there because he's a king. He has artisans go and add a snake to his brow on almost all the depictions of him in his tomb at Sikara in the north because he's become a king. But a king in the new kingdom of Egypt at that time cannot be buried in a mere Sikara tomb. He's got to be buried in the royal cemetery at the valley of the kings. So there's a tomb of Horum heb at the valley of the kings. So Ramesses I, and this is an interesting question, unlike Akinaten doesn't just stay in one place at one time and stick there, he moves around. I think he starts back. Well, he continues this tradition of the peripetitic court, but there is definitely a favoring of the north. And it may be that Ramesses I gives his name to an incredible new settlement developed by his son, say to the first, and his grandson, Ramesses II, and that is called piramces, or piramces which in ancient Egyptian means hosts of Ramesses. So this is why I wanted to talk about Ramesses I for quite a bit because he lasts not very long at all. And yet from the surviving evidence of, you know, first his son and then Ramesses the great, you can actually see perhaps a few of the projects that he had in mind that he didn't get to live long enough to see through. Yeah, I think that's a really good way to think about it, Justin, because I thought, well, he gives his name to 11 kings. This whole period, as I said, is called the Ramicide period and the first Ramesses. Ramesses I must have ambition because he's chosen by Horomib. He must be quite a dynamic guy and he must pass on at least to his son, if not his grandson, you know, spoken instructions for what he wants to achieve. So Ramesses, the great, his grandson is alive at the time. He must have Ramesses I is ruling for that. I think he must be. So I think whether Ramesses II prints the young prince is already anointed as the chosen successor. I mean, even the concept of the crown prince that you get in modern, you know, European monarchies, I don't think that quite applies. You don't have to be, it is notionally the eldest son, but there is internal competition. I think it is up to the reigning monarch, the king to say, okay, you're better than him. And so, so, you know, there's the heir apparent may not necessarily be the eldest, eldest boy, but I'm sure as I can be given the reign length of Seti the first, that the baby, young boy, Ramesses II, is known to his grandfather. Interesting. Well, then let's talk about Seti the first. So what do we know about his reign following the death of Ramesses I? He gets to it pretty quickly. And by most Egyptologists estimation, Seti the first really is a pretty self conscious and effective patron of the arts. He takes this very interesting name, which is a throwback itself to earlier kings, wechem Mesut, which means literally repeater of births. So literally an ancient Egyptian that means renaissance, he wants to undo a lot of the Amarna interlude. We know that he goes around restoring images of a moon, adding his own name, where the name wasn't there previously. And in that he inspires his son deeply. I think there is a deep psychological thing about this. Still remember, new kids in the block, Arab East dynasty, they want to make absolutely sure that their claim is solid and will last. And they do that by restoring the works of their ancestors and shouting about how much they restored the works of their ancestors. And so Seti the first commissions, this incredible temple, which still is one of my favourite sites in Egypt, at Abados, the site in the south of Egypt, a bit north of Thieves. That's the sacred site of the ancient God Osiris. So you very easily by building a temple, they are connected to this very long standing cult of the God of rebirth. And in that temple, beautifully decorated temple, there is a very significant corridor, very significant for historical reasons, because following on a tradition, which itself was quite old, of celebrating previous kings, there is a scene of Seti the first and his young son, Ramassies, reading out, declaiming, announcing, ritualizing the names of all their predecessors. And this hall of ancestors is significantly located between the Abattoir and the temple offering rooms. So all the offerings of the beef have to go in front of the corridor. So you're feeding the souls of everyone named on the wall as you pass. So it's this metaphysical sense of not just celebrating, look at all these great kings who've come before. but ensuring that their souls quite literally are sustained with offerings by locating the offering list in this particular place. It also anchors and ramacies the second end as prints. - Crown prints this time we think, yeah. - Yeah, I mean really as the era parent. And there must be what's not uncommon in the engine is a core agency. So there is not just a crown prince, there is a nominated successor who kind of shares the throne. And maybe you know, said to the first saw or foresaw that he wasn't going to live a very long life. He can only be 40 ashtray days. And then ramacies the second must come to the throne. Pretty young, 'cause 20 maybe. - I mean if he was like, said to his reign, it's a decade or so, isn't it? - Yeah, but more than a decade. - But yes, because ramacies the first has died so quickly, he is focused in like consolidating the new dynasty and legitimizing its position with those kind of images, those dedications to temples and ancestors. But also I guess military activity too, that's another important thing he has to do. - Yes, yes, absolutely your rate. - We know this on the north wall of the outside of the main temple of our moon at Karnag. - I see, yes. - You've been there, you've stood in front. - I'm standing, my gosh. And often it's messed by tourists, they're impressed by the high-pastel hole and ports growing on inside. But if you step outside, you see an absolutely incredible depiction of military engagements where you know, set the first is leading his trips into battle along the ways of Horus. So this is up northeastern into the Lovant. And so there is, again, there's a lot of trying to control these ping pong states to try and get them back under Egyptian control. And where in some cases, especially when it comes to the hit heights, you get the impression that Seti the first will let some, he picks his battles crit literally. And he lets some sleeping dogs lie where maybe Prince Ramassies, who may actually be involved, he may be as a teenager, physically be involved on campaign. You get the sense maybe Seti the first stop short where Ramassies the second wants to continue and push for the win eventually he becomes king. - Is that Philip the second of Macedon and Alexander the Great? It's the dad that lays the foundations for the sun. - Yeah. - For steps interesting. - Good analogy, yeah. - But no, I just wanna focus a bit more on that north wall of the high-pastel hole at Karnak because you look at it and one of my favorite pictures, parts of it, you see a river full of crocodiles. - Yes, you're snapping at the river. - Yes, we're unfortunate to have gone into the river. - This idea that the Egyptians have to cross this river, I think it's like the sign I can insert that and they think it is all around there to get into Syria where they're campaigning. And then I think you see another depiction of Kadesh of all places in Seti's reign and he's besieging Kadesh at that time. It's Seti, not Ramassies. - Indeed, so people hear a battle of Kadesh and if they know anything about ancient warfare they think of Ramassies as second but the grudge with Kadesh definitely dates back to the reign of Seti and the first so Kadesh is in Poets Now Modern Syria. So it's far from Egypt, you have to take several weeks to go there by foot with a big army but that's what Seti does. He goes, he campaigns there. And this is partly a hangover of the Amarna period that those depictions are so detailed. That is an Amarna thing. You would never see that level of detail in the reign of Tumos III. And maybe there's something to be proven. Maybe it's seti the first really trying to make the point that there must be something like a kind of court, war correspondent or war artist because the detail is very specific and most ancient Egyptians seems to do not reflect history as it happened and don't reflect the world as it actually is. But yeah, there are details that bring about this world in which foreign or anyone who's unfortunate enough to be non-Egyptian is in disarray and the Egyptians are successful on campaign. So the local detail, the scenes of a siege fortifications at Canals, rivers, siege warfare, that does seem to ring through. So fascinating, isn't it? And with Seti's reign, although he doesn't last very long, why'd you one other thing? We mentioned Karnak there in the Hypersdow Hall, which we normally associate with Ramesses II, constructed beginning under Seti or maybe even older than that, do we think? I think it maybe was conceptualized all the way back under Amenhood III and Seti the first does the bulk of the work. Okay. So I think it's really realized by Seti the first and he begins to decorate it and by the time he dies, it's half finished. And so Ramesses II completes it. But it is an absolutely astounding piece of architecture, you know. World architecture, absolutely breathtaking. And his team as well, and the value of the Kings, it's one of the most pristine, dual like, and it's funny because Ramesses II is in real terms bigger, but is much, much less well preserved. Interesting. Well, that's Seti's reign. I mean, how successful would you argue that Seti is? Because normally it is the case that the predecessor really sets the scene for the greatness of the person that follows in several cases once again, Philip and Alexander. How successful do you think Seti is in the context of consolidating control and getting the 19th dynasty really on track? Oh, I think he's pretty successful. I think he, as you said, sets the train in motion for what he hopes is going to be a long-lived dynasty. As we'll discuss maybe in the next episode, the fact that his son is so long-lived may actually compromise Seti's plans. But as a military man, clearly, you know, I guess Seti, the first would have remembered a time when he was not meant to be the king. You know, he was a military general. He was the son of a military general. He was someone important, but he had to prove himself amongst his colleagues. Yeah, his peers exactly. So he has the kind of kingship thrust upon him, you could say. So he has that genuine ingenuity where in his conscious life, Ramsey's the second was always a prince. So you always have that kind of the silver spoon in his mouth. So maybe his ambition is slightly different from his father's, but his father in terms of, especially in terms of architectural and artistic work, as you mentioned, the tomb in the Valley of the Kings, work at Karnag, other sites as well, but to the temple of Seti, the first to abide us. These are just beautiful things. And I think he does instigate this corregency that sets the scene for Ramsey's the second. And when eventually Ramsey's the second takes the throne, he says at that abide us temple, I arrived here and found it unfinished, and I finished it in honor of his father. So he doesn't change the names around the ages, perhaps. He completes it in his own name, which is completely okay by ancient Egyptian standards. It's not that the son is trying to elbow the father out of the way. He's simply complementing his father because kingship is timeless. And none of those images of the kings look like the real people in the walls. So you can simply continue the imagery. It's not a conflict in the way we might think. And so we get to the reign of Ramsey's the second. We'll cover only the first few years as we wrap up this episode. But firstly, is there any challenger to Ramsey's the second succession? If Seti's made it quite clear in his wall paintings and the reliefs that he seems to be the clear heir apparent, do we know much about the succession and whether there was any difficulty around it? Well, there's an interesting set of evidence at Karnag where there's a chap called Mehu, Mehu or Mehu, I forget who is shown in a very prominent position in these battle reliefs. So you get the sense that this guy is the right hand man. And in some of those reliefs, his images change to being Prince Ramsey. Now, I wouldn't make too much of this. I think that's just what's appropriate to Ramsey's the second. I don't think this represents another rival claimant to the throne. It may just be when the reliefs were executed, it was fitting at the time. And then as time progressed, Ramsey's the second really wanted to claim part of that legacy. But no, the succession seems fairly clear. As I said, there is a core agency. And the, for example, that's seen in the Hall of Ancestors at Abados, you can see that is a product of the work of city, the first, when city, the first is still alive. So it seems that Ramsey's the second is the anointed here and is as accepted as such. And how does he initially reign? What do we even know about those earliest years of Ramsey's the second is Pharaoh? You get the impression, well, it has to finish off some of his dad's building stuff. But you do get that sense that he's itching to get in a chariot and go on. - Really? - Be top some foreigners. So as I say, it's probably likely that he had some experience in the ontarage at least of his father whether he's actively out on the front lines is another question. That doesn't seem to happen later in Ramsey's second zone reign, but he goes yet year four, year five, so early in the reign of Ramsey's the second long time in the throne, he goes out to Cadish again. And he wants to confirm the status of these vassal states. So these are kind of client kingdoms again, a resist this term empire is not like they're trying to turn the Egyptian. It's trying to get their loyalty, their fealty there. It was buffer states as well, I guess you know buffers, yeah against a more problematic enemy, which in the early part of the reign of Ramsey's the second that's the hit it's the hit it's like the north of Syria, even into modern modern Turkey is the seat of the empire. So he feels he has beef unfinished beef with Cadish after his dad, so he goes up to Syria and is this when we get the famous battle of Cadish. Yes, and it's famous because he tells us so many times. He's done it. It's recorded in several temples has mentioned a millions of years, which we'll talk about separately. Karnak, Luxor, Abu Sembal, he's talking about this a lot. And so yeah, the engagement is fascinating because we know a lot from recorded speeches. So you get this sense, not just of the the action as it plays out, but of the psychology of the king because there are. Well, we can tell something about the organization of the military. So you have the infantry, you have the chariots divided up into divisions divisions are named after God's, I don't know how common that is in the ancient world. I can't think of any other examples that come to mind straight away. I'm sure someone will have a comment. I'm sure saying that there might be one, but no, when you think of divisions of armies, you do think of Kadesh and this description that you have right. Yes, so you're named after the major gods of Egypt, Armun, Ibtar, Seth and the Sun God Ray. And so in the account, it's very unusual that the Kadesh account is unusual because it reflects it's unusually reflective because it allows that mistakes are made by the Egyptians. So it talks about, you know, these informants are captured and these non-Egyptian informants and they say, oh, the Hittite ruler is 120. Yeah. He's far away. He's really far away. He leagues off. And so the Egyptians are okay with that. So they kind of become a little complacent maybe when they're marching to make camp, you know, Kadesh. Then they get hold of better intelligence, which says that the Hittites are much closer and the Hittites surprise, surprise attack the Egyptians when they're unprepared. And so there's this extraordinary episode in which the attack comes and it's really the king is said to be a loan. We find himself a loan. And so the drama is, and of course you can see how Ramsey spends this, basically the greatness of the king comes at the expense of the soldiers who are usually said to be pretty good and pretty effective. No, no, their deserters are disorganized and so Ramsey's personally has to fight off the the Hittites, pursues them into the river. And so manages to win a kind of stalemate. So it's less bad than it could have been. I mean, imagine the king could have been captured or killed or much worse could have happened. The Egyptians suffer it as acknowledged some heavy losses, but they are able to maintain this status quo. So it's a draw, basically. The Battle of Cadish in the Hittite eyes is a success for them, but in the Egyptian eyes is a success for the Egyptians. And Ramsey's at least early on spins this as better to kind of keep it as it is and then later will go back and regroup and in a couple of years will. So he snatches a draw from the jaws of defeat. Yes. And you do get a sense and don't you putting aside all the Ramsey's own spin on it that he does later. This sense of this young rash, you know, kid, young man, young man, yes, the young man, I know who wants to kind of follow in his dad's footsteps, but doesn't have the military institution there maybe that he's lured into a bad position, bad intelligence, then gets a better intelligence later. And he's outwitted by this other king by this hitage ruler and his chariots and the like, isn't it? Yeah, it's for the first time you see an Egyptian king and his opposite number, essentially the enemy. When I kind of even footing, it almost emphasizes the scale of the challenge. And so the relative success of the draw, I guess, that the Hittites in terms of numbers are a big force. So to have got that still me is a win for Ramsey's. So how significant do you think is the result at cadesh for Ramsey's if you look at what he does afterwards if you take the actual military like effective it's out of the picture. The final and OK, it is a draw. But is it ultimately a success for Ramsey's because of what he then later does with that? Yes, because I think he can come back to Egypt. Remember there are no, obviously, but it sounds a bit trivial. There are no smartphones. There are no photographs. The king has come back and maybe he's captured some booty from the battlefield. And he says, yeah, great success guys. You will believe whatever the returning force says. You don't have the fact checking. You don't have the counter narrative. So for Ramsey to come back after God, it must be more than a year away. So the king has been away from Egypt away from the capital away from the palace for a long time. So for him to come back with some stuff. And the story is a success enough and then he'll just paint those, paint those pictures of him on the walls of temples there looking triumphant as a bigger to try and reinforce that image of a successful returning king. Absolutely. And I think also there is a sense of it being a stop gap because you could imagine he is still young. It's only your five, your six. You could think, right, well, go back and have another goal in the future and then I'll recarve the wall. Or I will achieve the success that I'm claiming on the walls at stands. So is it very much cadet and it's resolved. This is only the beginning of Ramsey's story. Is there only the beginning of his reign and he's still got a lot to do. A lot to learn and a lot to show off. Yes, I think he does think of it as a lesson. I mean, if we can try and get into his head, but it's a start for a tale. It's not the end of the story. And we'll continue that in the next episode. Campbell, as always, such a pleasure to have you on the show. Great. Thanks. Well, there you go. There was Dr. Campbell reprise talking through the rise of Ramsey's, the second, his father and grandfather and Horum Heb and the likes before him. How we'd ultimately paved the way for Ramsey's the second to take the title of Pharaoh in the early 13th century BC. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Campbell will be back next week to continue the story to explain more about Ramsey's the second long, long reign and what followed. Following his death, you've got see-people's in there and you've got quite a bit of chaos, which is going to be really fun to explore. So make sure you come back for our second episode with Campbell next week. In the meantime, thank you so much for listening to this episode of The Ancients. If you enjoyed the episode, if you're enjoying the show, then please make sure that you are following The Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. That really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favor. If you'd also be kind enough to leave us a rating as well, well, we would really appreciate that. Don't forget, you can also sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries with a new release every week. Sign up at historyhit.com/subscribe. That's all from me. I'll see you in the next episode.