The Hollywood-Backed Cult that People Thought was a Conspiracy

Hey guys, if you're not following me on Spotify, please hit that follow button and leave a five-star review. They're both a huge, huge help. Thank you. For a lot of people out there, you and I were just talking off camera about how we are all susceptible to things that, you know, we may not even realize we're becoming a part of and I can't even imagine what it's like to kind of like come outside of that and be like, whoa, but you know, not to bury the lead here, you were involved in what is now known as the NXIVM cult for many years. We'll go through the whole story today and whatever you want to, but, you know, for people who aren't familiar with the NXIVM cult and what that was later, thanks to you and some other brave people, revealed to be, what was it in simple terms? Sure. I can give like the overall cliff notes and then we can go down some rabbit holes as I'm sure we will. So I was involved in what would probably be best described as a personal and professional development program. People might be familiar with things. Like Tony Robbins or Landmark and I'm not champion either of those things to be totally honest because I, well, we can get into why later, but there's a lot of coaching, executive training that's, you know, around that everyone's sort of accessible to and is aware of. Now in 2005 when I joined, this was at the height of like the, you know, the human potential movement and also before cults were particularly, There weren't as many documentaries on HBO and Netflix as there are now. It's a very different era. So it's sort of a stage I want to set. But yeah, I joined in 2005 what was ostensibly a coaching program to be more successful, to be more your best self. And I joined as somebody who was really looking for more meaning and more purpose and a whole bunch of other things because I know you're going to ask me questions about my psychology and my parents and my childhood. And whatnot, what set me up for that, which I'm happy to get into. But yeah, I joined because I wanted to be a better version of myself. I was an actress. I was living in a basement suite. I had bigger aspirations than where I was. And this looked like a tool set to help me achieve that. So basically it was a community. What was it supposed to be? It was supposed to be a community of like-minded humanitarians working on themselves. It's basically a therapy-based program. So it was seminars and workshops that were designed to look at your belief system. And upgrade the software so that you could be more joyful, integrated, optimal. And that's what it was supposed to be. Well, as you know, I've had some people in here who were involved with Scientology. Yes. And we've done some podcasts on that. I listened. Did you listen to Jenna Miscavige? I listened to Jenna, yeah. Unbelievable. Yeah. Right? And she's born into it and everything. But I bring that up because there are so many parallels. So many. That I see between Scientology. And what NXIVM was from a marketing perspective. Like you were just saying. Be a higher version of yourself. Accomplish goals that you're having trouble getting even focused on right now. Join a community that's going to keep you accountable for this. We'll get into it. But like the ESP stuff and all that. Very similar in a lot of ways to some of the auditing psychology that Scientology has. So quick question. Were you aware back in 05 or 06 what Scientology was at the time? Great question. I'd heard of it. I didn't really know much about it. As it became more prominent. Like I was still in NXIVM when the Scientology Tom Cruise jumping on the couch incident happened. You remember that? And that was the first time that I was like, what is this? And I remember asking some of my upper ranks people above me, like, what is Scientology? And I had some people who had taken NXIVM and had also done Scientology. And they said it was very similar, like you just said, in its goal. In terms of, you know, let's be happier. And work through our limitations. But in terms of how they achieved that, I was told it was very different. So our approach was kind of like talk therapy, but getting to the root cause of an issue. So if you, if I was your coach and you said to me, Hey, like, you know, every time I start a podcast, I get really nervous. Then I would be like, okay, what's the stimulus that, like, when does that nervousness set in? And then we figure out what the stimulus was and how that made you feel. And like what part of your childhood belief system, when that was created and what, what you made that mean. That would. Then. Then you would then like put onto the podcast, it would make you feel nervous. And it would be like an unwinding of that belief system to the point that whatever the trigger was would no longer stimulate you anymore. Yeah. Apparently Scientology had a whole other different approach. I didn't know that much about it, but I do remember thinking, Hey, you know, who, who am I to judge? Tom Cruise is happy and people think he's in a cult. People think we're in a cult. So, you know, who cares? People are doing their own thing. I didn't have a lot of judgment on it. I thought, you know, good for him. He's happy. And then I saw going clear, but that was after I left. Right. One of, if not the most common DMS I get on Instagram are many of you asking me what my favorite books are. Well, today's your lucky day because if you use the link in my description below to join my newsletter, I'm going to give you my top 10 book recommendations right now. Also, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make money producing content from the show, you can do so via the discord link in my description below. And finally, you can join my Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes via the Patreon link in my description below as always. Please take one second to hit that subscribe button if you haven't already. I really appreciate that. Also, the like button is a big help and you can join my newsletter via the link in the description below. And that was one of the first movies that I saw that I was like, holy shit. First of all, I wasn't, I wasn't, I know I'm jumping to the end. I'll tell you everything you want in between. But that moment of, I literally have it in my notes section, all the things that I saw in the, in going clear that were almost word for word. Some of the words are word for word, suppressive. We, you know, we use that word slightly different meaning, but same vernacular. Same, uh, system of control, you know, shunning people who leave, they call it disconnection. I mean, I could pull up my notes and we could look at it and dissect it if you wanted. That's, um, fascinating, but we, we've done five or six episodes on Scientology and every person we interview is like, oh, there, I didn't know you did that too. We had, we also had that like, that's crazy. So similar, so similar, but they were way more successful than we were at Scientology. Well, they were, I mean, they've been around, they were around a lot longer and just bigger in size as well. Yeah. Global. You know what, when I, when I read about Scientology or interview people, I feel like L. Ron Hubbard was some, like kind of a, like a sci-fi writing nerd who wanted to create this club and, you know, like made a little club. He's like, hey, you're going to be in the military and you're going to wear this hat and you have a clipboard. And then it just got like out of control. Like it is, it was almost like, like they're cosplaying the military or like, like, but it's huge and they have real funds and real buildings. And why isn't, like the IRS is up everybody else's butts. Why aren't they? It's crazy. Why aren't they dealing with that? Don't even get me started on that. Don't even get me started. It's like that chaps my ass more than anything else in the cult space. Yeah. All you got to do is like go to Clearwater and look at all the empty buildings that they own and be like, something's, something's a little wrong here. And I did that. I actually drove through recently for, I don't know if you know Mike Rinder, who's one of, one of the ex-Scytologists. He passed away. So I was at his memorial and I had to drive through that creepy area and it is creepy. Very. Yeah. And if you stop, they will come and like walk to your car and, you know, tell you to get the fuck out of here. Because they own the, they own the sidewalks. They own the city. Yeah. It's, it's, it's crazy how, how something like that still exists at the level it does in the open internet era. Blows my mind. It also blows my mind that something like NXIVM took even until 2017, 2018 to actually have the whistle blown on it. Because, you know, you mentioned L. Ron Hubbard, guy was a fucking psycho. He died in 85 or 86, right? So he died pre-internet era and all that. I guess in hindsight, like it could make sense, something like that could have some subsistence after that. But like Keith Ranieri, who, who ran, who created NXIVM, you know, this guy was alive the whole time and in charge of it and openly allowing things to be, that was, that was the other thing. Like everything was allowed to be videoed, right? Like you guys had a record of all this stuff and people have not seen The Vow on HBO, HBO Max, which you are in obviously. Where you guys, a bunch of you tell the story from what it was like inside there and you're getting literal videos of step by step or every time you're talking about something, there's evidence of it right there that can be shown to people. It's very sinister to watch because it's like this, I don't know, it's like you're watching a dystopian 1984 reality and you guys were happy while you were in it. Yeah. It's very, very, I mean, was that pretty cathartic? I guess, like making that show? Well, there's so many points I want to address what you just said. Hold on. Well, first of all, I'll answer your last question. I didn't, we didn't know we were making an HBO documentary when we were filming it, right? We, at first we were filming it because we knew that they were going to come after us, which they did. And this was more of a protection, like let's film our, our unwinding, like, holy, we're in a cult situation. We weren't like, we're going to sell this HBO, which by the way, I didn't, I'm the subject and I'm not a producer. I'm just filmed in it. But we didn't know what it was going to be. We didn't know that it was going to come out after Tiger King and like blow our lives up and everyone was going to watch it because it was COVID. Like that was, you know, not in the, in the cards as far as we knew. But the filming of it, all the stuff that they filmed behind the scenes, I don't know if you know this, but it was filmed because Keith wanted a library of all his genius. So that when he died one day, we could like refer to it. In fact, when he did forums and he would like speak in front of a crowd, I never did this because I didn't. I just thought it was a dumb exercise. and I maybe was lazy or whatever, but there would always be like eight people sitting in the front with clipboards and stopwatches, and they'd be like 8 o'clock, and they had columns, and it'd be like joke, metaphor, quote. And so it'd be like, you know, Keith makes a joke about global warming and farts at 8 p.m., you know, whatever, and so that you could cross-reference, and then eventually there'd be like, you know, did Keith ever talk about global warming, and you could say in this forum on this date, and then you'd pull up the library. So that's why he did it, and the footage that you see in The Vow is everything that Mark had access to, which was a lot because he was, you know, hired as the filmmaker, but there was- Mark Vicente. Mark Vicente, who was the guy who brought me in and also the guy who brought me out, and we can talk about that a little later. We will, but all of that was like just what he had. There was like so much more. I'm sure. In fact, I had heard since leaving that the people that remained the loyalists were taking that footage to make a documentary to show how wrong we are and, you know, how much I loved it. I'm like, I never said I didn't love it. Like, I am very clear that I had a great time until I didn't. Right, until it got dark. Yeah, you know, people like Sarah, you know, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, I'm very honest about that. Like, it wasn't bad from the beginning. The guys at True Classic started with a simple mission, to actually make me look good. Just kidding. They wanted to bring premium, comfortable clothing to the masses because looking and feeling great shouldn't come with a designer price tag. And clearly, people agree. With over 25 million shirts sold to 5 million customers and more than 200,000 five-star reviews, True Classic has become a staple in closets everywhere. But this brand isn't just about fabric or fit. It's about confidence. It's about helping people show up every day feeling put together without trying too hard. That's what makes True Classic the perfect gift this holiday season. 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A gift for everyone on your list. You better be using that link, not Amazon. I don't want to hear anything about Amazon. Come on now. That's trueclassic.com slash Julian. Link in my description below. They, the way it strikes me is it's a slow descent. Yes. Right? They give you some sort of payoff. They give you some sense of community. They give you things that appear to be happiness. You met your husband, who's still your husband today, in the cult. And so there were, there were, there are all these friendships and happy memories. Tied with it. But then eventually they, they basically use that baselining against you to then normalize things that are obviously completely f***ing insane. But they do it slowly, starting with just language patterns or expectations on your job, and then eventually work their way to using those same manipulation tactics to pull you into DOS, which we will talk about later. Yes. Which is certifiably insane. I mean, it's just so tragic to watch it play out on camera. I'm glad that, that. you know, Mark was able to get access to all these things. But it underlies the point that, you know, you're talking about a man in Keith Raniere, who is one of the most textbook sociopaths you will ever come across and his own sociopathic behavior as so often happens is really what did him in because he wanted evidence of everything that he was doing and he thinks it looks great and makes him seem like a God, but it made him seem like a f***ing psycho to everyone on the outside. That was his undoing and also creating a, we call it, we call it, we call it a p***y. So creating, we call it DOS, you can call it DOS if you want, but I don't, I don't know actually what his intentions were because I never talked to him about it. Cause when I was invited into that, it was supposed to be not related to NXIVM at all, which of course is total bulls**t, but when he created DOS and that we went through that experience, I remember thinking, you know, people think we're in a cult, like I knew that people thought we were a cult, but I also thought they didn't understand cause they weren't in the curriculum. And if they went through it, they would really get it. And, but when that, when they started DOS, I'm like, this is not good. I hate to use the word, but. I can laugh now, not good branding. This is not good branding to brand women with your initials. Like, that's not a good idea. If people think we're a cult already, let's not do that. Like that's not really smart, you know? So anyway, I'm, this is very serious obviously, but I'm like eight years out. Sometimes I can talk about it very openly and, and fine. Other times I'm like, yeah, I don't want to talk about that right now. So we'll just, I can imagine. It's a mix of, of emotions. You know, there's part of it. You have to be like, holy sh**, another thing. It's, you know, it's just, it's something you can't, you can't on, on, you can't erase that hard drive. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So where, you were an actress before any of this happened, right? So you had, you had gotten on some TV shows and movies in Hollywood. So you already had. I had some credits. Yeah, you had some credits and some sort of success, but you were looking for more. What did, was that something you wanted to do as a little girl, like becoming an actress? Yeah. I would always want to be, I wanted to be an actor, but I also had my, my parents. Yeah. Yeah. I always wanted to be, I wanted to be an actor, but I also had my, my parents. were very like politically and socially active. And I was very much instilled in with some altruistic, like change the world and make the world better. And we used to march for peace. And like, my dad was a hippie and like, that's, that was sort of ingrained in me. Like if there was something wrong in the world, we would write letters to the mayor. You know what I mean? Like it takes, it takes some action. We'll do something about it. Yeah. We're going to do something about it. So I kind of had the idea that I would be an actress and then use my voice to have an impact. And that's sort of, that was what it wasn't. Like, I want to be a famous actress to be famous. It was like, I could, I could be famous to have a voice. Did you like the idea of pretending to be other people on camera? Yes. Yeah. I love that. Okay. So you love the actual activity too. Yes. Oh, I did. Yeah. And then it changed over time. Like when I was applying for theater school, it was either theater school or psychology. Cause my parents were in that world. My mom's a family therapist. My dad's a counselor. I loved, like I was a camp counselor. I've always been kind of like, you know, who's director with my, my little clipboard. There are certain, you know, roles that people fall into. So I, that was a route I was going to take or route as you Americans say. Yeah, they both work. They both work. Okay. So that was something I'd considered. I was going to go into therapy and then become like a drama therapy therapist. And I ended up become going into theater school. That was a real experience I went to. It was just a program where it was like under transition. So I was a theater major, like bachelor of fine arts. So I call it my bachelor of. I went to BFA at a school where I'm a class of 16, which means you're supposed to come out with theater experience. And just the way it worked out, like they did Romeo and Juliet. You think I want to be Juliet. It's my middle name. I was Gregory. Okay. Do you know who Gregory is? It made you play a dude. It made me play a dude. Yeah. With like three lines. Very trans of that. Yeah. It's super ahead of the times. This is 1998, like way ahead. So I played a dude. My point is I got out of theater school. I was getting out of theater school. I was like, I did not get the experience that I needed. I had a boyfriend at the time who had gotten into film and television. And he had an agent and he was on a TV show. And I was in Montreal and there was like the film industry that was booming, booming. And I basically went right into film and TV at a time when I guess like all my other friends were like struggling theater people. And I was like, film and TV is where it's at. And I got a bunch of great credits. I was like guest stars on a number of shows. And I was like, this is what I want to do. And I loved it. Yeah. How did you, so you were able to just connect through his agent and get some opportunities and then kind of build that into some bigger stuff? Yeah. Yeah. I got, I basically got with his agent and she sent me out for auditions. And I, it's, it being an Anglo-Saxon, I don't know how to say this. Sorry, that's not the right word. An Anglophone, Anglophone, like an English speaking person in a French city where the film industry is like just starting out. There wasn't many, there was, I was a small, I was a big fish in a small pond versus going back to Vancouver, which is where I'm from. After theater school was over, I was now a small, way bigger pond. And that was, that's when things were hard for me. And I was like getting little roles and doing beer commercials. And even when I was doing theater and doing, during film and television, I mean, I wasn't, I was like, you know, on a vampire TV show, like teen stuff, like the equivalent of Nickelodeon. We, it was called YTV up in Canada. So I was doing those things and it was fun, but I was like, this isn't necessarily that meaningful to me. You're not changing the world. Not changing the world, no. Not with this vampire teen soap stuff. Yeah. So then there was a big chunk of time. There was like a writer's strike. I believe it was like 2001 is when I moved back to Vancouver. All this stuff happened where I was like, this is not what I thought it was going to be. And that's when I, that was like made me ripe and ready for cult recruitment. So it just wasn't like, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't as fulfilling. I was, it wasn't. And I also had a lot of friends who were quite successful in film and television at the time. And I saw their success. And I also saw them not even, like even when they were successful and they had lead roles in shows, which is sort of the goal. To lead in a show. They weren't necessarily happy. So that was something that was sort of in my awareness. What do you, what do you think was driving them not being happy that they, it still wasn't enough or they were working too much? I think, I mean, honestly, I think the film industry is kind of vacuous, you know. It's what, vacuous? Like, it's just not super, it doesn't have a lot of depth. I mean, every now and then a show will come around that, that, you know, has impact. But most of the time it's, it doesn't, I don't know. Like, film and television, I loved, and I'd almost, after this whole story, I'd almost like to get back to it because I want something simple. But it's not as – theater is exhilarating and it's exciting and it's live and you're on stage. I see Joey nodding in the corner. He knows quite literally. Yeah. Film and television is like – it's a lot of waiting around and you're in your trailer and it's kind of anticlimactic and it's a whole different skill set. And I think that when you're working 12 to 14-hour days on a show, even if you're the lead, it's a lot. It's not necessarily that glamorous or fun or – unless you're working with incredible people and it's like an indie shoot or something, then – oh, I miss it. Now I'm talking about it. Yeah. Yeah. Now you do. Now you do. It's funny how in the moment you're like, God, this sucks. And later you're like, damn, we had the life. Yeah. There's pros and cons. There's nothing like walking into your own trailer and like, oh, this is my home for the next month or something. And then at the end of it, you're like, I need to get back to my space. Yeah. No. I don't know. I will say, like, because they film a lot of stuff in Hoboken now, so we should trailer this all the time. I'll pass those things. I'm like, I don't think I'd want to spend like six hours every day in that thing waiting around. Yeah. You know, even like when J-Lo was here, it's a regular – I'm sure hers has like a couple nice things in there. Oh, yeah. You know, you're still cramped in this little tube for a little bit waiting around going, all right, when's my scene? Yeah. I don't know about that. Especially if you're like just a day player. Do you know what a day player is? It's like Joey knows. It's just basically you're there for the day and you're a principal. You're a principal role and you've got a couple scenes or whatever. Got it. And you're not famous enough to get a trailer, so you basically have a room that's a bench that you could lie down on and like a little tiny toilet. And it's like a jail cell, right? So you don't want to stay in there. No. So you end up like going to hang out by craft services and, you know, it's – Yeah. I feel like I'd be hanging out with the crew. Yeah. Just like shooting the shit or something. Totally. I'd go stir crazy in those places. Later I learned I'd bring my laptop and like get it worked on. I'm not good at like just doing one thing. So I'm like, oh, here's this. It's time to, you know, return emails. So you go back to Vancouver at some point when the writer's strike is going on. Were you still with the same guy or? The same – no. We broke up. He was like my first serious like we lived together boyfriend and we thought we were going to get married and we were like we should probably like not – we should probably take a little break and then we'll get married. And then we both started dating other people and we didn't – That's how it goes, right? Yeah, we didn't get married. No. And he's a great guy. We're still in touch. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. I'm just laughing. Sorry. I'm saying she's still in touch. Yeah. She's still in touch with some interesting people. That's a little bit of a different story. No. This guy is scary. You weren't like 12, right? No. All right. That's good. I was 20, like 21, 22. I love how she said that was such a fucking straight face too. She's like, yeah, I was 13. He was 21. I'm like – come again? Hold on. She's like, yeah, we're friends on Instagram. I'm like, I don't know if I would admit that. I love you, Summer. She's great though. Yeah, she's great. Thank you for hooking that one up. Yeah, of course. She's great. She's great. She was a very, very fascinating conversation. And by the way, what you were saying about how that manipulation works, I can tell you both Joe and I were completely sold on that, talking with her. Oh, were you? As far as like, oh, yeah, that marriage she was in and what that guy did to her makes all – especially considering like her strengths and her flaws, like makes all the sense in the world. Totally. How that would have happened. She – I don't know if she told you how she – I guess she had seen The Vow and one of the cult experts connected us. And we just instantly got each other. Yes. We were instantly understood and I feel like that's something that survivors, even though she wasn't in a traditional cult, a cult of one, same dynamics, same manipulation, same dangling of the, you know, the future faking and all the shit that Mr. Fox did. Like, it's all these textbook patterns and I get it. I don't judge her for it. I embrace her and that's why we're good friends. Yeah. And I know that's great for her to have someone like you too. Who can relate and be a friend to her because when you hear like someone, for example, the phone calls that you had recorded once you – once it was like, oh, wait a minute here. You know, and I hear your tone of voice while you're still kind of like fighting with this. Like, is this what I think it is or isn't it? You know? And then I go listen to her tone of voice when she was like on the run or going through it with Mr. Fox or her con man husband and all that. It's the same octave. Yeah. It's the same kind of like – It's a little different pitch. Yeah, it is. But it's like what comes across is like, oh, these aren't stupid people or anything. These are people who are so deep in something that they can kind of see the light on the other side. But, you know, someone's got to give them a flashlight to get all the way there. Yeah. It's a very – it's – as like a viewer, it's a terrifying thing to feel because like I know you. I know both of you now. I know how you talk. I know how you are. And I can only – I can only imagine like what that must have been like at the peak of it. Yeah. Well, I could say now that my voice is a little bit more in my body versus like totally disassociated. But actually a lot of those conversations in The Vow – and please don't get me wrong. The Vow, I'm so grateful for because it really did us a service whereas a lot of documentaries don't – are a total disservice to the victims like Netflix and Bad Vegan with Sarma, which I know you've already covered. The Vow really showed, you know, what was beautiful about it at the beginning. You know, what pulled us in and we can talk about that. I'm just making a note to circle back. But just to say a lot of those phone calls, they didn't – there was no subtitle underneath about the timeline. I was actually – for some of them, not all of them, fully out. Like I knew I was out but I – they didn't know I was out. So I was recording them lying to me. Right. So I was like, so what's happening? Yeah. What – I mean, don't be – Say that real slow. Yeah. So Keith is not having sex with anybody because I was told he was – don't get me wrong. I was terrified. Like my PTSD was through the roof. I was not in a good place. But I was – I wasn't questioning. They think I was questioning. But I was out and I was getting proof of their lies. Wow. So that's not explicit in The Vow but it doesn't really matter. Like that's the only thing that kind of wasn't explained clearly. Well, it's got to be scary though talking to people that you know are in – that were doing this thing that, you know, they were trying to appear as a friend to you when they were doing this thing. They were the farthest thing from it. Yeah. It's the ultimate break of trust. Huge betrayal. For sure. Huge betrayal. Yeah. And that wound has taken a long time to heal. Does it ever really heal? I don't know. I mean, I think it does and then a new thing happens and I'm like, oh, yes, it wasn't healed. Yeah. And then I have to revisit and, you know, call my therapist or go for a long walk by the beach or have a hot bath or do the things that I know that I need to do to calm my nervous system because that's usually what flares up. Yeah. I'm going to – I'm going to stick a bookmark in some of that as it relates to your husband as well because I want to go through like how that all happened and like we'll eventually get to where you guys are now. But I would imagine that's, you know, you guys are like a resource to each other. And it's also very cool, by the way, that you guys seem to have a great marriage and stayed together even through all this stuff because that's not usually something that you see happen. Yeah. Most times, especially if you meet in a cult, without the cult framework, it's sort of like what are we doing here? Right. But luckily we had some values. We shared values outside of it. And we also had a kid. Yeah. So that helped us to – I don't know how much you want to get into that now in the healing process. We could bookmark it. Yeah. We'll bookmark that. Come back for sure. Because there's a lot of ways we can go here. But I want to start with how you initially got pulled in by Mark Vicente, who he was. And obviously like he – as you said, he's the guy who ended up pulling you out as well. Yeah. He has a really pretty amazing character arc that happened. I mean, you know, we're talking about Mark Vicente here, and that was covered very well in "The Vow" and everything, and certainly someone I feel for as well. But how did you know Mark in the first place? So I had seen – so back to my relationship history, I was with the guy that I'd acted with, and I moved back to Vancouver. And then I started dating a guy who was a filmmaker, and we're also still in touch. Great guy. That's a through line. He and I – yeah, he was a filmmaker. I was an actor. He was a filmmaker. Yeah. That's a classic pairing. And he had made a film that got into a festival that was on a cruise. So it was the Spiritual Cinema Circle Festival at Sea. This festival no longer exists. Was that a carnival cruise? I think it was a Royal Caribbean. I don't remember. Yeah. It was fine. It was my first time on a cruise. And my ex, who is David in my book, because he doesn't like his real name to be used, which is totally fine, got invited to be – like his film got chosen. And we were really excited because Mark Vicente was the director of What the Bleep. So I had seen What the Bleep. Do we know? You're 28? I'm what? You're 28. How old are you? You told me I'm 28. I don't know. Sorry about that. How old are you? 32. 32. Okay. So you were born – what year were you born? '93. Okay. So What the Bleep came out in like 2003. So you'd been 10. Right. So my point is that this was before your time. Yeah. Yeah. That was my point. You probably missed What the Bleep. What the Bleep was like the hugest movie. Yeah. It was like the hugest doc of the time. And it was before – you've heard of The Secret? Yeah. Yeah. That's like the book The Secret. The Secret. The Manifestation thing. Yeah. Where you like visualize. Yeah. Before The Secret came What the Bleep and it – yeah. Oh, it was the same kind of subject matter. Same kind of subject matter. The Secret has some NXIVM vibes to it. Oh, yeah. Just saying. Oh, 100%. Yeah. And a lot of – Let's see where this is going. Yeah. A lot of through lines to like other culty characters that I've like interviewed on our podcast. It's all full circle. But What the Bleep was like quantum physics meets spirituality. Okay. we can manifest things. And like, if you're looking at this water and you're projecting love onto it in and you look at the molecules it looks different if you're projecting evil onto it and they show the science behind it and it was all very like woo woo science but it was at the time groundbreaking and was basically like you can create your own reality so that movie was amazing for me at the time i was i'd started my spiritual journey this is before an axiom so i was reading books like celestine prophecy also before your time artist way this is not your audience the artist way the artist way i know that one yeah julia cameron yeah i feel like we've talked about that before right maybe it's a great book sorry it's a really good book and i still recommend the book to the to this day because it's basically a 12 uh week program for people to tap into their creativity and you do things like take yourself on artist dates and you journal in the morning and it's a great way to like open up your creative source but it these books kind of set me up for success with the cult because i was already in this mindset of remember this is early 2000s so like setting in tensions and manifesting and creating the life that i want and i went to this film festival setting the intention i'm gonna go find my purpose going online without express vpn is like leaving your laptop unattended in a coffee shop while you go to take a most of the time you're probably fine but what about the one day you come out of the bathroom and the homeless guy who was sitting outside no longer is and your laptop is gone every time you connect to an unencrypted network whether that be in cafes hotels airports or wherever you're going your online data is not secure any hacker on the same network can gain access to and steal your personal data like passwords bank logins credit card details etc and it doesn't take much technical knowledge to hack someone either just some cheap hardware is needed a smart 12 year old could do it and your 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expressvpn.com slash julian dory that links in my description below that's e x p r e s s vpn.com slash julian dory head on over there now to find out how you can get up to four extra months expressvpn.com slash julian dory link in my description below this is acting is not necessarily my full purpose and i was going to meet a bunch of people and i'm going to show you how you can get up to four extra months expressvpn.com slash julian dory head on over there now to find out how you can get up to four extra months expressvpn.com slash julian dory head on over there now to meet a bunch of people and i'm going to show you how you can get up to four extra months expressvpn.com slash julian dory head on over there now to find out how you can get up to four extra months on board with everything that's in the film but at the time at the time it was groundbreaking and the time it was like yes and you know so when i got to the boat i thought like maybe i'd you know see him in a panel or like you know i'd cross paths with him but our very first night at the film festival they did a science seating and it was like me and my boyfriend and mark and his girlfriend and i was like you know meant to be meant to be and and and we had an incredible incredible conversation that night and it just like changed the trajectory of my life from from right there before i ask you about that conversation because you you mentioned there that this was like you were on your spiritual journey you're trying to figure some things out about the world find your purpose stuff like that did you have any bad any type of growing up real religious background or not even religious background like some sort of like dogmar yeah thought about where it all came from yeah i so my dad was his parents were anglican and so and he kind of rebelled they were like they were aristocratic his grandparents were british lord and lady like friends of kind of thing yeah wow technically my dad is a lord and i am honorable yes the honorable sarah edmondson is what you can call this i'm not gonna call you that but that's great good for you thank you you should don't keep to call you that i tried well in nexium i got to senior proctor so it was the honorable senior proctor sarah juliet shapiro edmondson so it was pretty impressive yeah i don't hold any of those titles sarah juliet shapiro edmondson yeah it's a long name it sounds like law firm especially with the shapiro yeah so that's my mother's side i have known probably about six lawyers off the top of my head with the last name shapiro i don't have it well i do have some shapiro lawyers in my family oh that's funny so edmunds is my dad's side shapiro is my mom's side and my mom is like reform non-practicing jewish like we celebrate hanukkah we celebrate christmas oh you got best of both worlds and my parents separated when i was i was two so they did yeah so that's another part of my psychology since because i know you like to yeah it's kind of important yeah it's good important it's good to know that they and they were they were civil and now they're really good friends but my whole life i was like i just want to get my parents back together not not not now but like when i was when i was young i was like let's just get my like if i had a wish like a birthday wish or a candle whatever it was like if i could just have my parents back together and so i think that comes into play later when i'm to get into the cult and like just wanting family and i was only child my dad remarried and ended up having a brother later so i i totally have a half brother that's like my brother but being it i have all the trappings of an only child in terms of like being alone and wanting a sibling and wanting a best friend and wanting to fit in and you know i understand you're right yeah are you also an only child yeah okay so you get that and then also as a nerd were you a nerd no you don't seem like you were a nerd i wasn't i mean i did very well in school but you were cool smart no i don't think i was any of the above i think i was always just a little different than the others whatever that was did it bother you sometimes yeah certain eras it did other eras i think as i got older by college i embraced it in a lot of ways but it's kind of like sometimes you're the loneliest person in a crowded room you know what i mean yeah yeah totally get that yeah still that way really still yeah yeah i think so good thing i didn't find you 15 years ago yeah yeah well scooped you up yeah i don't i don't think i don't think any as i was telling you off camera i think everyone is susceptible to colts and things like that but also i think in learning like it's something i've been fascinated with for a while such that we look at things that are so obviously now like a cult like scientology or nexium or something like that but i look at a lot of other things without naming names and go that's a fucking cult yeah right like i'm very i keep a very hyper awareness of that because like i said i i don't think i think the right circumstances at the wrong time in your life yeah you can start to believe something that you know 10 years later you might be like what the fuck but at the time sounds like the smartest thing ever yeah well it's called in the cult space they call it situational vulnerability oh that's a great i'm gonna use that feel free yeah because everyone goes through it whether it's you know crossroads with career or a relationship or being in a new city you're not vulnerable you don't have a weakness as a person you're just vulnerable because of the situation you're in maybe combined with some emotional stuff like i certainly had emotional vulnerabilities too i just i hate to use that word because it it has a negative like oh you're being vulnerable like it's your vulnerability it's your like it's your wound you know which is kind of true but it's like the wound combined with the person coming in who wants to take advantage of it so it's like a two-way yeah how's that negative though to talk about that um i think it's just a mis like a way the way that it gets used oh like the call oh you're just weak and vulnerable like it's everybody has that yeah i'm i i know that i just feel like people who who who use it in a way of like oh she was you know she had low self-esteem like it is if that's the only reason it sounds like you probably and i don't doubt it you know for what you've been involved with you've been judged so much also publicly yeah that you're you're very you have a high bar to recognize in that very quickly but i'll tell you like, fuck the people that are doing that. They don't know. And everyone's vulnerable in certain ways. And I think when people try to act like they're invulnerable, they're the most vulnerable people in the room. They're usually the most insecure, broken people in the room, no? Yep. And also the people that I think are the most vulnerable are the people who think they aren't vulnerable to it because it's a blind spot. And I think that could never happen to me. Exactly. And that's where, if I was trying to, you know, you know, take advantage of somebody, I would find those people because they have their, They don't – they're not even willing to learn what the red flags are because they think they'd spot them. That's right. That's right. And you're right. It is – when you look at something like the vow or Scientology, it's so obvious. But it doesn't look like that at the beginning. It looks really good. You kind of have to be like – Yeah. Wait, what? You know, like literally. It's not – and I've seen it, like I said, with some of the Scientology people, including people who have come in here who weren't in Scientology but have devoted decades like Tony Ortega or Mark Bunker to investigating it. They're like, yo, we get how people get into this. Like they'll be the first to tell you. Like there are some brilliant people. Yeah. Who are brilliant when they get pulled into it. And it's just like that term. What was it? Situational. Situational vulnerability. And then it just – slippery slope just keeps going and they start to accept things they wouldn't have accepted. So I get it. But you were saying a few minutes ago before we got on that tangent that you wanted – you had always dreamed of getting your parents. You wanted to get your parents back together. Yes. Because you – they separated when you were two, you said? Yeah, two and a half. So you never knew them together in your life at all? Yeah. So how would you try – would you like try to like set up dinner dates for them when you were like eight? Like how would this go down? It was more of a – it was more of wishing. It was more of like fantasizing and asking them, you know, and just hoping. It wasn't like, you know, parent trap type of situation. It was just a longing, a yearning that I had. I think this came under the – under – what was it? Talking about feeling – there was a tangent, but I know. It'll come back to me. I don't remember what it was. Well, you were saying you ended up having a half-brother and – but you always felt like an only child. How much younger was your brother than you? I was nine when he was born. Okay. So there's a little gap there. Yeah. But like were you closer with one of your parents than the other? I mean I probably spent more time with my mom. Like I think that's just the way the like division worked. And yeah, my relationship with my mom. My dad are very – are very different. So yeah, I don't have a – I don't necessarily have a like closer to. I probably talk to my mother more than I talk to my dad. We're a little more enmeshed is the term. Right, right, right. Yeah. Hey guys, if you haven't already subscribed, please hit that subscribe button. It's a huge, huge help. Thank you. I'm her only child, so it's, you know, we're close. For sure. Did she ever remarry too or? No. She didn't? No. I would love for her to get remarried. I'm always on the lookout if you know of any single. I'll let you know if we have one coming through. Men in their 60s or 70s in Canada ideally. That's right. Michio Kaku is not single, is he? I don't think so. I don't know. I'll follow him. Yeah, we'll find out. She's a wonderful woman. She's very warm. Oh no, we were talking about religion. Oh, I remember the tangent. Yeah, spirituality. Yeah, spirituality. So I think in many ways I loved that. So I was going back and forth. I had two homes. I had Hanukkah and Christmas. People would – when people asked, I said I was half and half. I said I'm half Christian, half Jewish. That's what I thought I was. There you go. But I didn't like spend a lot of time – I didn't go to church. I like very rarely went to synagogue. I had a bat mitzvah. So technically I was like fully Jewish but I wasn't like – I didn't keep kosher or anything like that. I think the good side of it is that I was very open to – like I wasn't like in a specific dogma of like this is how to live life. But I think the downside of it is that I was wanting rules on how to live life in a way. I felt a little bit like what is – I had a lot of existential anxiety. existential angst as a teenager and so when i finally got into an axiom it was like here's the rule book you felt a little unsupervised yeah god yeah sarma were the same on that one i know yeah i mean i was supervised more so although i did do acid at a very young age oh you did yeah but this is again the 90s when it was like i did that is that the christian side or the jewish side that was the confused side yeah that's a good answer but i was i've i am and i've always been little so even when i did anything like even drinking and drugs later i was like i'll do a quarter of what everybody else is doing so i never like went crazy with it you took a bite yeah i did like a half tab of acid do you remember any of it yeah i do yeah what was that like um it was great i did a lot of mushrooms too in high school that was that was really fun and i still do mushrooms mushrooms is the thing i still do the microdosing yeah i did that yesterday it was lovely nice you did a good walk like down fifth avenue no i went on the highline highline's a great spot yes i'm sure that'd be awesome microdosing highline high on the highline hi mom yeah you're getting deep excited over here but that's like been such a big part of my healing like microdosing is really good for me really just like totally removes my anxiety and i just feel present and i'm in the moment i'm not thinking about like all the things that cause me anxiety but did you have a lot of anxiety growing up yes yeah yeah and what do you think in the future initially caused that i think the divorce yeah yeah i felt a lot of unease i think we think about like a toddler and i've seen my now that i have two kids like seeing my kids at that age like your parents are everything to you that your parents are just like your whole world and i just can imagine the split and being like so like what's like everyone's got different types of trauma i think that was my initial trauma is having that that split with my parents and trying to just make everything better again and trying to but i thought if they got back together then things would be better but you know they're not they were 26 when they got together they were so young like that was yeah but you don't understand any of that when you're nine or ten you don't you don't even know what that is did you ever i mean it sounds crazy but i'm sure there's a lot of people out there that can look back on the late like in their childhood was there a party that was like oh maybe it's my fault that they're not together totally 100 yeah hear that all the time yeah absolutely in fact a lot of the work that i did in nexium like a lot was i don't know we can get to this but like we did this process called an exploration of meaning so you'd bring a stimulus response like i mentioned earlier and a lot of those the memories that were holding the the meaning or the reaction in place came so it came from my um came from my childhood and thinking like you know if i had been different or yeah you just like at that age you think that you're the cause because you're kind of that's your little world and right you know if i could just be different or better i think it made me it made me into a good girl like i was very much other than the acid but like i was a straight a student i was i was like i was a you know i followed the rules so you get on this cruise with martin end up sitting next to mark who makes this movie that this documentary that blows your mind and he's already in nexium at that time right yeah he'd already taken a 16-day training and he so he wasn't a coach yet or anything he what does that mean 16-day training so the so keep in mind this was like executive success programs we weren't even used to it and i was like oh my god i'm gonna using the term nexium at that time that came later but we is that's next time is the umbrella so i took he took executive success programs esp call it there's a five-day training and there's that's the first five days of a 16-day training and the idea was that was level one similar to the bridge in scientology right makes sense yeah if people could do the five-day or they could do the 16-day most people started with a five-day and then finished the last 11 that's what i did a five-day and then i did the last 11 later okay so he had just done the 16-day which is the rest of the curriculum and he thought it was great he met me and david and was like well if you liked my film you you probably like this thing i just did and we spent seven days together with him and his girlfriend and on the cruise on the cruise and i don't know if you have you ever done a cruise i was on a cruise that caught on fire one time oh jesus yeah yeah i've done a couple cruises my grandparents interesting times so you know that you like you you are at sea and then you dock and you explore some land and you go back to sea right so yes when we were at sea we were watching films and doing film festival things at in the big screening room and then when we were in land we were exploring like we were going to the bahamas and i think st bart's you know which was exotic exotic it was exotic the water was beautiful we were you know with 300 like-minded filmmakers and it was it was like the time of my life i was like this is this is peak living yeah you really can get close to people on those things yeah i mean that dead seriously yeah you are very close especially when you're in these exotic places or going somewhere cool and if you're on it for a week or two weeks or i was on one for three weeks one time like it becomes your world a little bit yeah yeah yeah and i and i i felt there was another couple that were also there who i'm still in touch with they live in in um england and so the six of us were kind of a little gang and we didn't really talk like we were just like a little family and and we were talking about big things and mark didn't even tell me that much about it it was just like i knew there was a guy named keith and he was a smart man and he was a chess player and a piano player and really smart and using his brain to create this humanitarian club is how it was pitched i know it sounds funny now it's funny now it's funny it was also funny that we were told he was celibate because oh you were told he was celibate oh yeah get the out yeah we were told he was a celibate renunciate you know renunciate is no there's somebody who's like so self of like evolved they don't need material items like he does he that's why he didn't have a car he was a renunciate he's a celibate renunciate like a monk a monk is a renunciate someone has to sell themselves as a celibate they're more than anybody oh i know right well now we know yeah i mean there's certain things i look back at and i'm like no don't believe that no that that actually came into play around the time that we joined because they're they they hadn't had that as part of the image they there was sort of like more it was more i've learned this later that he was more open about his polyamorous lifestyle yeah to say the least yeah and then when when people like myself and mark came in they were like we need to change this and they they like purposely lied because they didn't think that we'd be able to like understand why that would be ethical you know so they decided And it did not disclose that to us. It was a whole strategy. So it went the opposite. Yeah. So yeah, he's a celibate, doesn't need sex. So, you know. But Mark, I mean, obviously you respected him as a filmmaker and, you know, you had these, you kind of saw things you were looking for through the art he made and everything. But would you say it was a pretty magnetic guy too? Like you were, you were drawn to him. Yeah. Not necessarily romantically or anything, but you know what I mean. No. I mean, I definitely like looked up to him and, you know, he put him on a bit of a pedestal and he, if anything, like we actually joked about it later in NXIVM, he was a little bit, even though we connected and obviously like I followed his lead, he was also a little bit standoffish in that kind of Hollywood filmmaker kind of cool way. And that was one of the things that NXIVM did with him is made him more warm and more approachable. So even though he was, you know, I was drawn to him and his girlfriend, I was like, you know, we're best buds now, like BFFs forever. I was also like, you know. The power differential was still there. Like he was the filmmaker and I'm an actress and, you know, I don't know. It was a bit of both. Does that make sense? Yes. It wasn't like super clear as to like, we're on the same playing field, I guess. Yeah. There's, there's some, listen, I was never in it, but I've talked to enough people. There's some interesting dynamics. Yeah. That have always been in play in that, in that industry and particularly in the whole pecking order and stuff. Yes. And we see it where it goes like really dark, you know, with like the Harvey Weinstein stuff. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like in general on a day to day, it's like, I'm me, you're you, you're you, you know what I mean? Oh, the film industry is, I mean, in some ways it kind of has to be, I don't know if you could have a, a set where like everyone's the same, like there has to be somebody calling the shots, but like if someone's an asshole. Right. It's going to affect everything and, and that trickles down and whatnot, but there has to be like, you know, there has to be a president, there has to be an AD, there has to be a director, there has to be someone. That's life. Yeah, it is life. And. But the way you treat people. The way you treat people doesn't have to be reflective of you needing to be above them. Exactly. Like I, I, this will remain nameless obviously, but I was talking with a friend of mine who let's just say is like directly connected in that industry and you know, you're asking them the questions like, all right, who's great, who sucks, that kind of thing. And again, without naming names, it was so fascinating to hear people who were, you know, these mega stars or whatever that are effectively like on the same levels and how opposite some of them are. Yeah. Like, and they all present kind of the same thing. Like publicly, you wouldn't really be able to know, but you're like, this person's amazing. Here's why. Here's how they treat people. Here's what they do. This person sucks. Here's why. Here's. And then you hear some of the stories. You're like, that's not real. And they're like, a hundred percent. They do that. And you're like, come on, man. But I guess, I don't know. Maybe some people get so big that, and you know, their life is on camera. I'm talking about actors in particularly that they start to think they're like that thing, which also sounds like someone else I'm thinking of right now. But you know what I mean? Yeah. It's similar. It's similar. And also like, you never really know what's going on in people's lives. Like one of the very first experiences I had on set around that time when I first started acting in the late nineties is I was Rose McGowan's body double. Oh, wow. Yeah. So we're the same height and weight. Can you pull up Rose McGowan real fast? I could see like. We're the same height and weight. Her, she's more well-endowed than I am, but we are the same height and weight. And so I was her body double and I was her stand. And that's her now. But like, look at her back then. Yeah. Yeah. The fifth one right there. Do you see her with the hair? Fifth and seventh. Let's see that one. Yeah. And then go two over. Perfect. Yeah. I can see why. Same kind of cut out. And she was lovely. And it was a film that she was in with Alan Alda. And the highlight of my career is that one scene she wasn't ready and I got to read lines off camera with Alan Alda, which was amazing. That's pretty cool. Yeah. But she on set, I just will never forget this, is that she had the reputation of being a being a bit of a diva like we were you know shooting far away in the suburbs and she wanted a particular kind of latte and someone had to get the particular latte and everyone's like oh my god that's such a diva and i remember her being like a little like she was great with me really taught me so much like really took me under her wing it was so kind um but she had this you know reputation on set and then i found out years later after reading her book which is amazing by the way and she was one of the first me tours against harvey weinstein yes and her depiction of how that happened is fucking horrific and i have so much respect for her but when i did the math i was like oh that must have happened just before i met her wow you know and so that you know she was fucking raped by harvey weinstein in a hotel room when she's going up for a meeting that her agent set up in the it's just i mean that's a whole other tangent but my point is you never know what's going on for people for sure a quick question on that though yeah do you not see some patterns in that too oh yeah no right it's very we don't put it in the same category as like the actual literal cults and stuff we see but how is he that much different no he's not and this is where i like our podcast a little bit culty when we've talked about stuff like this all the time because it's the same power dynamic a hundred percent and he i mean we like the cult of hollywood is a whole other separate story like how these people have power and all these enablers and in our in our space they call them flying monkeys flying monkeys you know from the wizard of oz yeah so the the witch has the flying monkeys to do with it and they're like oh my god i don't know what's going on with the dirty work so the narcissist and the power position doesn't always do the all the things to set it up so they just sort of receive the benefits sure so weinstein also had like he had you know assistance bringing rose down from the downstairs table where she's been waiting patiently to have lunch oh he's just finishing a meeting why don't you come up to the foyer she's with somebody she's not like i'm going to go to the hotel room and get a job she's like being led by an assistant who knows what's going to happen who knows what's going to happen very epstein like i know you're you probably know so much about that now i saw your list of titles i was like could we just talk about epstein and aliens yeah no listen we've done we've done probably five six episodes before on epstein yeah you know that that is a case i've looked at since basically like the inception of it really blowing up and it it's one that you never get any less sick or desensitized to it yeah studying that one i'm sure and it just gets worse and so jillian maxwell would also be an example of a flying monkey but also you know a co-conspirator and an enabler and all the things in a legal sense an actual physical sense so and keith had those too keith had a few jillian's around him well let me ask you not specifically about the keith ones let's look at let's stay with this other example for a minute because i'd love to know now you being outside it what your example was because as as you i think we said this off camera so i want to say this on camera too you worked on this on camera you worked on this on camera and you worked on this on camera so i'm going to give you a little bit of background on what you've done when you were on the business side of nexium and when they tried to pull you deep into the other side of it that's when you went no holy shit so one of the things that happened when you and some other people bravely went and whistle blew this whole thing is you were falsely titled in various publications as like oh a for an ex recruiter for sex whatever you know comes clean about nexium when in reality you never did that but what i want to ask you about is not even getting to the nexium ones who did but like stay with epstein for a second naki len some of the girls that he got to when they were 16 17 who he abused and then who informing that relationship of abuse kept on who then later you know in their young 20s went and recruited girls for him how do you what do you make of that and how do you view that uh so complicated yes i for especially 16 year olds who don't know much else like i joined when i was 26 turning 27 so i feel like i had a little bit more a little bit more life experience and i think that's ultimately what kept me out of the you know keith's clutches i kept him at bay in a way that i think like i wasn't looking for a father figure in the same way that some of the other women were and that we can go into that as well so i think when you when you join something like that at 16 you don't necessarily know how wrong that is like it's just what becomes normal so i i don't think it's obviously i don't think it's right and you know people need to be held accountable but i totally have um i don't know i don't have the word for it i i understand how it happens yes and i'm i actually spoke to one of those women when i first got out and i don't even know her name to keep i can't because this is seven years ago but one of those women reached out to me and was trying to figure out how to like what she should she do now like should she bust through it like i did and like just come out with it and and like write a book and you know and bust through the shame or should she like go into hiding because she wasn't sure and actually i've lost touch with her i don't know what she decided to do i think she went the other way and decided just to like rebuild her life and and not expose it because she was so ashamed so ashamed and i i think that's what keeps people quiet is that if they do wake up from something like this like i did then and and they and there was sex involved they did bad things like why would you want to even talk about it right so i i have a lot of empathy i guess that's the word of empathy for that journey and like nobody wanted no i didn't want this i didn't sign up for this and sign up for keith's initials on my body they didn't sign up to be you know pimps for jeffrey i've seen they signed up for security and safety and and and whatever it was they thought they were getting at the beginning and that's the thing it's always bait and switch thank you guys for checking out this clip if you haven't already subscribed please subscribe and hit the like button on this video and i'll see you in the next one bye video it is a huge huge help and if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode. 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