The Hollywood-Backed Cult that People Thought was a Conspiracy

Observe the North American dad, 50s, great polo collection. He enters his vehicle information on Carvana and offers appears in minutes, remarkable. He squints, reads it again, smiles and says, "Dang, that's a good offer." The highest form of approval, no haggling, no hassle, no one called him, boss. He's still on the couch, astonishing. While your car today on Carvana.com, pick up these may apply. For a lot of people out there, you and I were just talking off camera about how we are all susceptible to things that we may not even realize we're becoming a part of. I can't even imagine what it's like to kind of come outside of that and be like, "Whoa, you know, not to bury the lead here. You were involved in what is now known as the Nexium Coal for many years. We'll go through the whole story today and whatever you want to, but you know, for people who aren't familiar with the Nexium Coal and what that was later thanks to you and some other brave people revealed to be what was it in simple terms. Sure. I can give the overall cliff notes and then we can go down some rabbit holes as I'm sure we will. So, I was involved in what would probably be best described as a personal and professional development program. People might be familiar with things like Tony Robbins or Landmark and I'm not champion either of those things to be totally honest because I can get into why later, but there's a lot of coaching, executive training that's around that everyone's sort of accessible to and is aware of now in 2005, when I joined, this was at the height of like the, you know, the human potential movement and also before cults were particularly, you know, there weren't as many documentaries on HBO and Netflix as there are now. This is very different era, so it's sort of a stage I want to set. But yeah, joined in 2005, what was, sensibly, a coaching program to be more successful, to be more your best self and I joined as somebody who was really looking for more meaning and more purpose and a whole bunch of other things because I know you're going to ask me questions about my psychology and my parents, you know, my parents and my kid, you know, not my kids, my childhood and why not what set me up for that, which I'm happy to get into. But yeah, I joined because I wanted to be a better version of myself. I was an actress. I was living in a basement suite. I had bigger aspirations than where I was and this looked like a tool set to help me achieve that. So basically it was a community. What was supposed to be supposed to be a community of like minded humanitarians working on themselves is basically a therapy based program. So it was seminars and workshops that were designed to look at your belief system, upgrade the software so that you could be more joyful, integrated, optimal and that's what it was supposed to be. Well, as you know, I've had some people in here who were involved with Scientology. Yes. I've had a lot of podcasts on that work we get. Did you listen to genomes? I listened to Jenna. Yeah. Unbelievable. Right. And, you know, she's born into it and everything. But I bring that up because there are so many parallels that I see between Scientology and what Nexium was from a marketing perspective like beat like you were just saying, be a higher version of yourself, accomplish goals that you're having trouble getting even focused on right now, join a community that's going to keep you accountable for this. You know, we'll get into it like the ESP stuff and all that very similar in a lot of ways to some of the auditing psychology that Scientology has. So quick question, were you aware back in '05 or '06 what Scientology was at the time too? Great question. I'd heard of it. I didn't really know much about it as it became more prominent like I was still in Nexium when the Scientology Tom Cruise jumping on the couch incident happened. And that was the first time that I was like, what is this? And I remember asking some of my upper ranks people above me like, what is Scientology? And I had some people who had taken Nexium and had also done Scientology. And they said it was very similar like you just said in its goal, sorry, similar in its goal in terms of, you know, let's be happier and work through our limitations. But in terms of how they achieved that, I was told it was very different. So our approach was kind of like talk therapy, but getting to the root cause of an issue. So if you, if I was your coach and you said to me, hey, like, you know, every time I said a podcast, I get really nervous. Then I would be like, okay, what's the stimulus that was like, when does that nervousness set in? And then we figure out what the stimulus was and how that made you feel and like what part of your childhood belief system, when that was created and what what you made that mean that would then you would then it like put on to the podcast that would make you feel nervous? It would be like an unwinding of that belief system to the point that whatever the trigger was, would no longer stimulate you anymore. Apparently Scientology had a whole other different approach. I didn't know much about it, but I do remember thinking, hey, you know, who am I to judge? Tom Cruise is happy and people think he's going to call people think we're in a cult. So, you know, who cares? People are doing their own thing. I didn't have a lot of judgment on it. I thought, you know, good for him. He's happy. And then I saw going clear, but that was after I left. One of if not the most common DMs I get on Instagram are many of you asking me what my favorite books are. Well, today's your lucky day because if you use the link in my description below to join my newsletter, I'm going to give you my top 10 book recommendations right now. Also, if you'd like to join my clipping community for a chance to make money producing content from the show, you can do so via the Discord link in my description below. And finally, you can join my Patreon for early uncensored releases of the full episodes via the Patreon link in my description below. As always, please take one second to hit that subscribe button if you haven't already. I really appreciate that. Also, the like button is a big help and you can join my newsletter for either the link in the description below. And that was one of the first movies that I saw that I was like holy shit. First of all, I wasn't a, I don't know, I'm jumping to the end. I'll tell you everything you want in between. But that moment of, I literally have it in my note section. All the things that I saw in the, in going clear that were almost word for word. Some of the words are word for a suppressor. We, you know, we use that word slightly different meaning, but same vernacular, same system of control, you know, shining people who leave. They call it disconnection. I mean, I could put my notes and we could look at it and dissect it. If you wanted, that's fascinating. But we've done five or six episodes in Scientology and every person we interviewed was like, oh, there, I didn't know you did that too. We also had that like, that's crazy. Yeah. So similar. Yeah. But they were way more successful. It's, it's Scientology. Yeah. And around, they were around a lot longer and just bigger in size as well. Yeah. Global. You know what? But when I, when I read about Scientology or interview people, I feel like Elvara and Hubbard was some, like kind of a, like a sci-fi writing nerd who wanted to create this club and, you know, like, middle of the club was like, hey, you're going to be in the military and you're going to wear this hat and you have a clipboard and then you just go like, how to control. Like, it, it was almost like, like, their cause playing the military or like, like, but it's huge and they have real funds and real buildings and why isn't, like, the IRS is up everybody else's butts? Why aren't they? Oh, it's crazy. Why aren't they dealing with that? Don't even get me started. It's like that chaps my ass more than anything else in the cult space. Yeah. All you got to do is like go to Clearwater and look at all the empty buildings that they own and be like, some, some's a little wrong here. And I did that. I actually drove through recently for, I don't know if you know, Mike Rinder who's one of the, one of the excites he passed, yeah, so that is Memorial and I had to drive through that could be area. And it is creepy. Very. Yeah. And if you stop, they will come and like, walk to your car and, you know, get, tell you to get the fuck out. Yeah. Cause they own the, they own the sidewalks. They own the city. Yeah. It's, it's, it's crazy how, how something like that still exists at the level it does in the open internet era blows my mind. It also blows my mind that something like Nexium took even until 2017, 2018 to actually have the whistle blown on it because, you know, you mentioned, I'll run Hubbard guy was a psycho. He died in 85 or 86, right? So he died pre-internet era and all that. I, I guess in hindsight, like it could make sense, something like that could have some subsistence after that. But like Keith Renieri who, who ran, who created Nexium, you know, this guy was alive the whole time and in charge of it and openly allowing things to be, that was, that was the other thing. Like everything was allowed to be videoed, right? Like you guys had a record of all this stuff and people have not seen the vow on HBO, HBO max, which you are in obviously where you guys, a bunch of you tell the story from what it was like inside there and you're getting literal videos of step by step or every time you're talking about something, there's evidence of it right there that can be shown to people. It's very sinister to watch because it's like this. I don't know. It's like you're watching a dystopian 1984 reality and you guys were happy while you were in it. Yeah. It's very, very, I mean, was that pretty cathartic, I guess, like making that show? Well, there's so many points I want to address what you just said. Hold on. Well, first of all, it's your last question. I didn't, we didn't know we were making an HBO documentary when we were filming it, right? We, at first we were filming it because we knew that they were going to come after us, which they did. And this was more of a protection, like let's film our unwinding, like holy fuck we're in a cult situation. We weren't like, we're going to sell this HBO, which by the way, I didn't have the subject and I'm not a producer. I'm just filmed in it, but we didn't know what it was going to be. We didn't know that it was gonna come out after Tiger King and like blow our lives up and everyone was gonna watch it 'cause it was COVID, like that was, you know, not in the cards as far as we knew. But the filming of it, all the stuff that they filmed behind the scenes, I don't know if you know this, but it was filmed because Keith wanted a library of all his genius so that when we died one day, we could like refer to it. In fact, when he did forums and he would like speak in front of a crowd, I never did this 'cause I just thought it was a dumb exercise and I maybe was lazy or whatever. But there would be like eight people sitting in the front with clipboards and stopwatches and they'd be like eight o'clock and they had columns and it'd be like joke, metaphor, quote. And so it'd be like, you know, Keith makes a joke about global warming and farts at eight, you know, whatever. And so that you could cross reference and then eventually there'd be like, you know, did Keith ever talk about global warming and you could say in this forum on this date and then you'd pull up the library? So that's why he did it and the footage that you see in the vow is everything that Mark had access to, which was a lot because he was, you know, hired as the filmmaker, but there was Mark Vicente, who was the guy who brought me in and also the guy who brought me out so we can talk about that later. Well, but all of that was like, just what he had. There was like so much more. In fact, I had heard since leaving that the people that remained the loyalists were taking that footage to make a documentary to show how wrong we are and you know, how much I loved it. I'm like, I never decided to love it. Like I'm very clear that I had a great time until I didn't, you know, till got dark. Yeah, you know, people like Sarah, you know, but I love, yeah, I'm very honest about that. Like, it wasn't bad from the beginning. The guys at True Classic started with a simple mission to actually make me look good. Just kidding. They wanted to bring premium comfortable clothing to the masses because looking and feeling great shouldn't come with a designer price tag. And clearly, people are great. With over 25 million shirts sold to 5 million customers and more than 200,000 five-star reviews, True Classic has become a staple in closets everywhere. But this brand isn't just about fabric or fit. 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You can find them at Amazon, Target, Costco, and Sam's Club, or you can help my show out and head to TrueClassic.com/Julian to grab the perfect gift for everyone on your list. You better be using that link, not Amazon. I wanna hear anything about Amazon, come on now. That's TrueClassic.com/Julian. Link in my description below. - The way it strikes me is it's a slow descent, right? They give you some sort of payoff. They give you some sense of community. They give you things that appear to be happiness. You met your husband, who's still your husband today, in the cult, and so there were all these friendships and happy memories tied with it. But then eventually they basically use that base lining against you to then normalize things that are obviously completely insane, but they do it slowly starting with just language patterns or expectations on your job and then eventually work their way to using those same manipulation tactics to pull you into DOS, which we will talk about later, which is certifiably insane. I mean, it's just so tragic to watch it play out on camera. I'm glad that Mark was able to get access to all these things, but it underlies the point that you're talking about a man in Keith Ranieri who is one of the most textbook sociopaths you will ever come across and his own sociopathic behavior as so often happens is really what did him in because he wanted evidence of everything that he was doing and he thinks it looks great and makes him seem like a god, but it made him seem like a psycho to the one on the outside. - That was his undoing and also creating, we call it DOS, you can call it DOS if you want, but I don't know actually what his intentions were because I never talked him about it 'cause when I was invited into that, it was supposed to be not related to next same at all, which of course is total bullshit. But when he created DOS and that we went through that experience, I remember thinking people think we're in a cult, like I knew that people thought we were a cult, but I also thought they didn't understand 'cause they weren't in the curriculum, and if they went through it, they would really get it. But when they started to ask Mike, this is not good, I hate to use the word, but I can laugh now, no, not good branding. This is not good branding to brand women with your initials. Like that's not a good idea. If people think we're a cult already, let's not do that. Like that's not really smart, you know? So anyway, this is very serious, obviously, but I'm like eight years out, sometimes I can talk about it very openly and find other times. I'm like, yeah, I want to talk about that right now. So we'll just-- - Right, I can imagine it's a mix of emotions, you know? It's part of it, you have to be like holy shit. And other things, you know, it's something you can't. You can't erase that between five. - Exactly, yeah. So you were an actress before any of this happened, right? So you had gotten on some TV shows and movies in Hollywood, so you already had. - I had some credits. - Yeah, you had some credits and some sort of success, but you were looking for more. What, was that something you wanted to do as a little girl? Like being in an actress? - Yeah, I always wanted to be. I wanted to be an actor, but I also had my parents were very politically and socially active. And I was very much instilled in some altruistic, like change the world and make the world better and used to march for peace. And like my dad was a hippie and like that was sort of ingrained in me, like if there was something wrong in the world, there were right letters to the mayor, you know what I mean? The takes him action. - The takes him about. - Yeah, we're gonna do something about it. So I kind of had the idea that I would be an actress and then use my voice to have an impact. And that's sort of, that was what. It wasn't like, I wanna be a famous actress, to be famous, it was like, I could be famous to have a voice. - Did you like the idea of pretending to be other people in the camera? - Yes, yeah, I love that. - You love the actual activity too. - Yeah, so I did, yeah. And it changed over time. Like when I was applying for theater school, it was either theater school or psychology 'cause my parents were in that world. My mom's a family therapist, my dad's a counselor. I loved, like I was a camp counselor. I've always been kind of like, you know, who's a director with my little clipboard. There's certain, you know, roles that people fall into. So that was a route I was going to take or route as you Americans, to say. - Yeah, they both worked. - Yeah, they both worked, okay. So that was something I'd considered. I was gonna go into therapy and then become like a drama therapy therapist. And then I ended up going into theater school. That was a real experience, it was just a program where it was like under-transition. So I was a theater major, like Bachelor of Fine Arts. So I called my Bachelor of School, but maybe at a school where I'm a class of 16, which means you're supposed to come out with theater experience. And just the way it worked out, like, they did Romeo and Juliet, you think, yeah, I'm gonna be Juliet, it's my middle name. I was Gregory, okay? - No, no. - Who Gregory is? - It made you play a dude. - It made me play a dude. - Yeah, with like three lines. - Very trans to that. - Yeah, super ahead of the time. So this is 1998, like way ahead. So I played a dude. But when it got out of theater school, I was getting out of theater school. I was like, I did not get the experience that I needed. Meanwhile, I had a boyfriend at the time who had gotten into film and television. And he had an agent and he was on a TV show. And I was in Montreal and there was like, the film industry that was booming, booming. And I basically went right into film and TV at a time when I guess I could all my other friends were like struggling theater people. And I was like, film and TV is where it's at. And I got a bunch of great credits. So I was like, guest stars on a number of shows. And I was like, this is what I want to do. And I loved it. - Yeah, how did you, so you were able to just connect through his agent and get some opportunities and then kind of build that into some bigger stuff? - Yeah, yeah, I basically got with his agent and she sent me out for auditions. And I, it's being an Anglo-Saxon Anglo-Saxon, sorry, that's not where I wrote it. Angle phone, Angle phone, like an English speaking person in a French city where the film industry is just starting out. There wasn't many, I was a big fish in a small pond versus going back to Vancouver, which is where I'm from. After theater school was over, I was now a way bigger pond. And that was, that's when things were hard for me. And I was like getting little roles and doing beer commercials. And even when I was doing theater and doing film and television, I mean, I wasn't, I was like, you know, on a vampire TV. So like teen stuff, like the equivalent of Nickelodeon. We, it was called YTV up in Canada. So I was doing those things and it was fun, but it was like, this isn't necessarily that meaningful to me. - You're not changing the world. - Not changing the world. No, not with this vampire teen soap stuff. - Yeah. - So then there was a big chunk of time. There was like a writer strike. I believe it was like 2001. It was when I moved back to Vancouver. All this stuff happened where I was like, this is not what I thought it was going to be. And that's when I, that was like made me ripe and ready for cult recruitment. So it just wasn't like, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't as fulfilling. I was, it wasn't. And I also had a lot of friends who were quite successful in film and television at the time. And I saw there a success. And I also saw them not even when they were successful and they had lead roles in shows, which is sort of the goal, like at a lead in a show. They weren't necessarily happy. So that was something that was sort of, I would, in my awareness. What do you think was driving them, not being happy that they still wasn't enough or they were working too much? I think, um, I mean, honestly, I think the film industry is kind of vacuous, you know, vacuous, like it's just not super, like it doesn't have a lot of depth. I mean, every now and then a show will come around that, that, you know, has impact, but most of the time it doesn't, it, I don't know, like film and film and television, I'd loved, and I'd almost, after this whole story, I'd almost like to get back to it because I want something simple, you know what I mean? But it's, it's not as, theatre's exhilarated and it's exciting and it's live and you're on stage as he's joey nodding in the quarter, yeah, film and television is like it's a lot of waiting around and you're in your trailer and it's kind of anticlimactic and it's a whole different skill set. And I think that when you're working 12, 14 hour days on a show, even if you're the lead, it's, it's a lot, it can, it's not necessarily that glamorous or fun or unless you're working with incredible people and it's like an indie shoot or something, then I'll have to sit now. I'm talking about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny how in the moment, you've got the sucks and later you're like, "Damn it." Really? We had the life. Yeah. There's pros and cons. Nothing like walking into your own trailer and like, you know, like, oh, it's in my home for the next month or something and then at the end of it, like I need to get back to my space. Yeah. No. I will say, like, because they film a lot of stuff in Hoboken now, so we should trail it all the time. I'll pass those things and I'm like, I don't think I'd want to spend like six hours every day in that thing waiting around, you know, even, even like when JLo was here, it's a regular f***. I'm sure hers has like a couple nice things. Oh, yeah. You know, you're still cramping this little tube for a little bit waiting around going, all right, once my scene. Yeah. I know about that. Especially if you're like just a day player. Like, do you know a day player is? It's like Joey knows. It's just basically you're there for the day and you're a principal role and you've got a couple scenes or whatever and you're not famous enough to get a trailer. So you basically have a room that's a bench that you could lie down on and like a little tiny toilet and it's like a jail cell, right? So you don't want to stay in there. So you're going to hang out by craft services and, you know, it's. Yeah, I feel like I'd be hanging out with the crew just like shooting the sh*t or something. Totally. I'd go stir crazy in those places. A little later I learned I'd bring my laptop and like get it worked out and I'm not good at like just doing one thing. So like, I use this time to, you know, return emails. So you go back to Vancouver at some point when the writer's strike is going on? Were you still with the same guy or? The same. No. We broke up. He was like my first serious, like we lived together, boyfriend and we thought we were going to get married and we thought like we should probably, like, not. We should probably take a little break and then we'll get married and then we both started together people and. Yeah. And we didn't get married. No. He's a great guy. We're still in touch. Yeah. What's going on? Yeah. I know. I was laughing at Sarmo saying she's still in touch. Yeah. But she's still in touch with some interesting people. I see. That's a little bit of a different story. No. This guy's. You weren't like 12, right? No. I was 20. Like, 2022. I love how. She said that was such a f*cking straight face, too. She's like, I was 13. She was 21. I'm like. Oh my god. Oh my god. She's like, yeah, we're friends on Instagram. I don't know. I would admit that. She's great, though. Yeah, she's great. Thank you for hooking that one. Yeah, of course. She was a very, very fascinating conversation. And by the way, what you were saying about how that manipulation works. I can tell you both, Joe and I were completely sold on that, talking with her. Oh, you okay? As far as. Oh, yeah. That marriage she was in and what that guy did to her makes all. especially considering her strengths and her flaws makes all the sense in the world. Totally. How that would have happened. I don't know if she told you how. I guess she had seen the vow and one of the cult experts connected us. We just instantly got each other. Yes. We were instantly understood. And I feel like that's something that survivors, even though she wasn't in a traditional cult, a cult of one, same dynamics, same manipulation, same dangling of the future faking and all the shit that Mr. Fox did. So the textbook patterns and I get it. I don't judge her for it. I embrace her and that's why we're good friends. Yeah. And I know that's great for her to have someone like you too who can relate and be a friend to her. Because when you hear someone, for example, the phone calls that you had recorded once it was like, oh, wait a minute. You know, and I hear your tone of voice while you're still kind of like fighting with this. Is this what I think it is or isn't it? You know? And then I go listen to her tone of voice when she was like on the run or going through it with Mr. Fox or her con man husband and all that. It's the same octave. It's the same kind of like. A lot of a pitch. Yeah. It is. But it's like what comes across is like, oh, these aren't, these aren't stupid people or anything. These are people who are so deep in something that they can kind of see the light on the other side. But you know, someone's got to give him a flashlight to get all the way there. Yeah. And I mean, it's a very, it's as like a viewer, it's a terrifying thing to feel. Yes. Because like, I know you. I know both of you now. I know how you talk. I know how you are. And I can only imagine like what that must have been like at the peak of it. Yeah. Well, I could say now that my voice is a little bit more in my body. First is like totally disassociated, but actually a lot of those conversations in the vow. And please don't get me wrong at the vow. I'm so grateful for it because it really did us a service. Whereas a lot of documentaries don't are a total disservice to the victims like Netflix and Bad Vegan with Sarma, which I know we've already covered. The vow really showed, you know, what was beautiful about it at the beginning. You know, what pulled us in and we can talk about that. I'm just making it a circle back, but just to say a lot of those phone calls, they didn't. There was no subtitle underneath about the timeline. I was actually, for some of them, not all of them fully out. Like I knew I was out, but they didn't know I was out. So I was recording them lying to me. Right. So I was like, so what's happening? Yeah. What I mean, say that. Yeah. So Keith is not having sex with anybody because I was told he was telling, don't get me wrong, I was terrified. Like my PTSD was through the roof. I was not in a good place, but I was, I wasn't questioning. They think I was questioning, but I was out and I was getting proof of their lies. So that's not, that's not explicit in the vow, but it doesn't really matter. Like that's the only thing that kind of wasn't explained clearly. Well, it's, it's got to be scary though. Talk to people that you know are in that we're doing this thing that, you know, they were trying to appear as a friend to you when they were the farthest thing from it. Yeah. It's the ultimate break of trust. Huge betrayal. Huge betrayal. Yeah. And that wound's taken a long time to heal. Does it ever really heal? I don't know. I mean, I think it, I think it does. And then a new thing happens. And I'm like, oh, guess it wasn't healed. Yeah. And then I have to revisit, you know, call my therapist or go for a long walk by the beach or have a hot bath or do the things that I know that I need to do to calm my nervous system. Because that's usually what flares up. Yeah. I'm going to stick a bookmark and some of that as it relates to your husband as well. Yes. Because I want to go through like how that all happened and like we'll eventually get to where you guys are now. But I would imagine that's, you know, you guys are like a resource to each other. And it's also very cool, by the way, that you guys seem to have a great marriage and stayed together even through all this stuff. Because that's not usually something that you see happen. Yeah, most times, especially if you meet in a cult without the cult framework, it's sort of like what we're doing here. Right. But luckily we had some value shared values outside of it. And we also had a kid. Yeah. So that that helped us to, I don't know how much you want to get into that now in the healing process. We could book market. Yeah. We'll book market that. Come back for sure. Because there's a lot of ways we can go here, but I want to start with how you initially got pulled in by Mark Vicente, who he was. And obviously like he, as you said, he's the guy who ended up pulling you out as well. He has a really pretty amazing character arc that happened here. That was covered very well in the valley and everything. And certainly someone I feel for as well. But how did you know Mark in the first place? So I had seen so back to my relationship history. I was with the guy that I acted with and then I moved back to Vancouver. And then I started dating a guy who was a filmmaker. And and we're also still in touch. Great guy. So through that. He and I. Yeah. He was a filmmaker. I was an actor, you know, kind of classic pairing. And he made a film that got into a festival that was on a cruise. So it was the the spiritual cinema circle festival at sea. It's this festival no longer exists. Is that a carnival cruise? I think it was a real Caribbean. I don't remember. It was fine. It was it was my first time on a cruise. And my axe, who is David in my book, because he doesn't like his real name to be used, which till they find. Got invited to be like his film got chosen. And we were all excited because the Mark Vicente was the director of what the bleep. So I'd seen what the bleep do we know. You're 28. I'm what? You're 28. How old are you? I don't know. I'm sorry. How old are you? 32. Okay. So you're born. What be your reborn? 93. Okay. So what the bleep came out in like 2003. So you'd been 10. Right. So this, my point is is that this was before your time. Yeah. Yeah. That was my point. You probably missed what the bleep. What the bleep was like the hugest doc of the time. And it was before you've heard of the secret. Yeah, that's like the book. - Like the secret, the manifestation, yeah. - Yeah, or you like, you know, visualize. Before the secret came with the bleep. And it was the same kind of subject matter. - Same kind of subject matter. - The secret has some nexium vibes to it, just saying. - Oh, 100%. And a lot of-- - I see where this is going. - Yeah, a lot of through lines to like other culty characters that I've like interviewed on our podcast. It's all full circle. But what the bleep was like, quantum physics meets spirituality. - Okay. - It's like there's a physics to how we can manifest things. And like if you're looking at this water and you're projecting love onto it. And then you look at the molecules. It looks different if you're projecting evil onto it. And they showed the science behind it. And it was all very like woo woo science. But it was at the time groundbreaking. And it was basically like, you can create your own reality. So that movie was amazing for me at the time. I had started my spiritual journey. This is before an axiom. So I was reading books like Celestine Prophecy. Also, before your time, artist's way. This is not your audience. - Your artist's way? - The artist's way. - I know that one. - Yeah, Julie Cameron. - Yeah, I feel like we've talked about that before, right? Maybe? - It's a great book. It's a really good book. And I still recommend the book to this day. 'Cause it's basically a 12 week program for people to tap into their creativity. And you do things like take yourself on artists' dates and you journal in the morning. And that's a great way to open up your creative source. But these books kind of set me up for success with the cult. Because I was already in this mindset of, remember this early 2000s, so like, setting intentions and manifesting and creating life that I want. And I went to this film festival, setting the intention. I'm gonna go find my purpose. - Going online without ExpressVPN is like leaving your laptop unattended in a coffee shop where you go to take a (beep) most of the time, you're probably fine. But what about the one day you come out of the bathroom and the homeless guy who was sitting outside, no longer is, and your laptop is gone? Every time you connect to an unencrypted network, whether that be in cafes, hotels, airports or wherever, your online data is not secure. Any hacker on the same network can gain access to and steal your personal data, like passwords, bank logins, credit card details, etc. And it doesn't take much technical knowledge to hack someone either. 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So secure your online data today by visiting ExpressVPN.com/JulianDory that links in my description below. That's E-X-P-R-E-S-S-V-P-N.com/JulianDory. Head on over there now to find out how you can get up to four extra months. ExpressVPN.com/JulianDory. - This is acting is not necessarily my full purpose and I was going to meet a bunch of spiritual filmmakers including Mark Vicente from What The Bleep. - Oh, that's interesting. So you were already, and you're really young at this point too. You're not enacting that long. You already felt like it was some sort of a let down from what your expectations had been. I guess kind of due to some of the stuff we talked about earlier the difference between theater and actually filming TV. - Yeah, none of that stuff was filling my cup. And so I thought there was more to it. And really what I wanted to do was make films like What The Bleep. And when I saw that, I was like this movie shifted consciousness. - Shifted consciousness. - Yeah, that's what I thought. I mean, I spoke people were saying, yeah. - Yeah, what did you mean by that? - Like, people had their consciousness about reality and how they viewed reality and themselves in reality was shifting, like shifting consciousness of the world through media. That's what I thought this movie did and that's what I thought I wanted to do. - Is it because of the way they made it or the message it was within it more? Was it just made beautifully that you're like, holy shit, like that was a lot? - I think it was both. I think it was a message. And listen, both Mark and I will to this day also say, like neither of us are fully on board with everything that's in the film, but at the time, at the time, it was groundbreaking. And at the time, it was like, yes. And, you know, so when I got to the boat, I thought maybe I'd see him in a panel or like, you know, I'd cross paths with him, but our very first night at the film festival, they did a science seating. And it was like me and my boyfriend and Mark and his girlfriend. And I was like, you know, meant to be. And we had an incredible conversation that night and it just like changed the trajectory of my life from right there. - Before I ask you about that conversation because you mentioned there that this was like, you were on your spiritual journey, you're trying to figure some things out about the world, find your purpose stuff like that. Did you have any type of growing up real religious background or not even religious background? Like some sort of like. - Dogmar. - Yeah, I thought about where it all came from. - Yeah, so my dad was, his parents were Anglican and so, and he kind of rebelled. They were like, they were aristocratic 'cause his grandparents were British, Lord and Lady, like friends. And they gave that chair kind of thing. Yeah, my technically, my dad is a Lord and I am honorable. Yes, the honorable Sarah Edmondsons, what you can call this. - I'm not gonna call you that, but that's great. Good for you. - Thank you. - You should totally keep the call you that. - I tried. Well, in next year, I got to senior proctor. So it was the honorable senior proctor, Sarah Juliet, Shapiro Edmondson. So it was pretty impressive. Yeah, I don't hold any of those titles anymore. - Sarah, Sarah Juliet, Shapiro Edmondson. - Yeah, it's a long name. - It sounds like a law firm. (laughing) - Especially with the Shapiro. So I. (laughing) So that was my mother's side. (laughing) - I have known probably about six lawyers off the top of my head, but less than Shapiro. - Right, I don't have. Well, I do have some Shapiro lawyers in my family. - Oh, that's funny. - So Edmonds is my dad's side, Shapiro is my mom's side. And my mom is like reform, non-practicing Jewish. Like we celebrate Hanukkah, we celebrate Christmas. - Oh, you got best about the world. - I got best about the world. And my parents separated when I was two. - Oh, they did? - Yeah, so that's another part of my psychology since 'cause I know you liked to discuss. - Yeah, it's kind of important. - Yeah, it's good and important. It's good to know that they, and they were, they were civil and now they're really good friends. But my whole life, I was like, I just wanted my parents back together. Not now, but like when I was young, I was like, let's just get my, like if I had a wish, like a birthday wish or a candle or whatever, it was like, if I could just have my parents back together. And so I think that comes into play later when I'm going to get into a call. And like just wanting family and as only child, my dad remarried and ended up having a brother later. So I totally have a half brother that's like my brother, but being in, I have all the trappings of an only child in terms of like being alone and wanting a sibling and wanting a best friend and wanting to fit in and then you understand. - You're right, yeah, you're also an only child? Yeah, okay, so you get that. And then also as a nerd, were you a nerd? - No. - You don't seem like you were a nerd. - I wasn't, I mean, I did very well in school. - But you were cool. - I said I didn't really like all that much more. No, I don't think I was any of the above. I think I was always just a little different than the others, whatever that was. - Did it bother you? - Sometime. - Yeah. - Certain errors that did, other errors, I think is I got older by college, I embraced it in a lot of ways. But it's kind of like sometimes you're the loneliest person in a crowded room, you know what I mean? - Yeah, yeah, totally got that. - Yeah, still that way. - Really still? - Yeah. Yeah, I think so. - Good thing I didn't find you 15 years ago. - Yeah, yeah, well. - I've scooped you up. - Yeah, I don't think, I don't think any, as I was telling you off camera, I think everyone is susceptible to cults and things like that, but also I think in learning, like it's somehow been fascinated with for a while, such that we look at things that are so obviously now, like the cult like Scientology or Nexium or something like that. But I look at a lot of other things, without naming names and go that's a fucking cult, right? Like I'm very, I keep a very hyper awareness of that, because like I said, I don't think, I think the right circumstances at the wrong time in your life, you can start to believe something that you know 10 years later, you might be like, what the fuck, but at the time, sounds like the smartest thing ever. - Yeah, well it's called, in the cult space, they call it situational vulnerability. - Oh, that's a great understanding, yeah. - Feel free, yeah, because everyone goes through it, whether it's crossroads, it with career or a relationship or it being in a new city, you're not vulnerable, you know the weakness as a person, you're just vulnerable because of the situation you're in. Maybe combined with some emotional stuff, like I certainly had emotional vulnerabilities too. I just, I hate to use that word because it has a negative, like all you're being vulnerable. Like it's your vulnerabilities. It's your wound, you know, which is kind of true, but it's like the wound combined with the person coming in who wants to take advantage of it. So it's like a two way. - Yeah, how's that negative though, to talk about that? - I think it's just a way, the way that it gets used. Oh, you're just weak and vulnerable. Like it's. - Everybody has that. - Yeah, I know that. I just feel like people who use it in a way of like, I don't know what else she was, you know, she had low self-esteem. Like, it is if that's the only reason. - It sounds like you probably, and I don't doubt it, you know, for what you've been involved with, you've been judged so much also publicly that you're very, you have a high bar to recognize in that very quickly, but I'll tell you like, fuck the people that are dead. - Oh yeah. They don't know and everyone's vulnerable in certain ways. And I think when people try to act like they're in vulnerable, they're the most vulnerable people in the room. And usually the most insecure, broken people in the room. And also the people that I think are the most vulnerable or the people who think they aren't vulnerable to it, because it's a blind spot and I think that could never happen to me. Exactly. And that's where, if I was trying to take advantage of somebody, I would find those people because they have their-- they're not even willing to learn what the red flags are because they think they'd spot them. That's right. And you're right. It is, when you look at something like the vow or Scientology, it's so obvious. But it doesn't look like that at the beginning. It looks really good. You kind of have to be like-- Yeah. Wait, what? Literally. And I've seen it, like I said, with some of the Scientology people, including people who've come in here who weren't in Scientology, but have devoted decades like Tony Ortega or a little bunker to investigating it. They're like, yo, we get how people get into this. They'll be the first to tell you. There are some brilliant people who are brilliant when they get pulled into it. And it's just like that term. What was it, situational vulnerability? Situational vulnerability. And then it just slippery slope just keeps going. And they start to accept things. They wouldn't have accepted. So I get it. But you were saying a few minutes ago before we got on that tangent that you had always dreamed of getting your parents back together. Yes. Because they separated when you were two, you said? Yeah, two and a half. So you never knew them together in your life at all. So how would you try-- would you try to set up inner-day form when you were like eight? Like how would you-- It was more of a-- it was more of a wishing. It was more of like fantasizing and asking them. And just hoping it wasn't like parent trap type of situation. It was just a longing, a yearning that I had. I think this came under the-- under what I was talking about feeling-- there was a tangent. But I know, OK, it'll come back to me. I don't want broiling. Well, you were saying you ended up having a half brother. And but you always felt like an only child. How much younger was your brother than you? I was nine when he was born. OK, so there's a little gap there. But were you closer with one of your parents than the other? I mean, I probably spent more time with my mom. Like I think that just the way the division worked. And yeah, my relationship with my mom and my dad are very different. So yeah, I don't necessarily have a like closer to. I probably talked to my mother more than I talked to my dad. We're a little more immeshed as the term. Right, right, right. Hey, guys, if you haven't already subscribed, please hit that subscribe button. It's a huge, huge help. Thank you. I'm our only child, so it's, you know, we're close. For sure, did she ever remarried to? No, she didn't. No, I would love for her to get remarried. I'm always on the lookout. If you know of any single, I'll let you know, we have 60s or 70s in Canada. That's right. Michul Kaku is not single. Is he? I don't think so. Yeah, we'll find out. She's a wonderful woman. She's very warm. Oh, no, we were talking about religion. Oh, I remember the tangent. Yeah, my mom and my mom, yeah, spirituality. So I think in many ways, I loved that. So I was going back and forth. I had two homes. I had Hanukkah and Christmas. People would, with people asked. I said, I would, I was half and half. I said, I'm half Christian, half Jewish. That's what I thought I was. There you go. But I didn't like, spend a lot of time in a go to church. I like very rarely went to synagogue. I had a butt mitzvah. So technically, I was like, you know, fully Jewish, but I wasn't like, I didn't keep kosher or anything like that. I think the good side of it is that I was very open to, like I wasn't like in a specific dog month. Like this is how to live life. But I think the downside of it is that I was wanting rules on how to live life in a way. You know, I felt a little bit like what is, I had a lot of existential, existential angst as a teenager. And so when I finally got into next year, I was like, here's the rule book. You felt a little unsupervised. Yeah. God, yeah. Sama were the same on that one. I know, yeah. I mean, I was supervised more so, although I did do acid at a very young age as a G. Yeah, but this is, again, the '90s when it was, like I did that. Is that the Christian side of the Jewish side? That was the confused side. That's a good answer. But I was, I am and I've always been little. So even when I did anything, like even drinking and drugs later, I was like, I'll do a quarter of what everybody else is doing. So I never like went crazy with it. You took a bite, you know? Yeah, I did like a half tab of acid. Gotcha. Do you remember any of it? Yeah, I do. So what was that like? It was great. I did a lot of mushrooms too in high school. That was, that was really fun. And I still do mushrooms. Mushrooms is the thing I still do. The microdosing stuff. Yeah. I did it yesterday. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Lovely. Nice. Yeah. She take good walk, like Dan Fit Avenue. No, I went on the Highline. Highline is a great spot. Yes. I'm sure that'd be awesome, microdosing. Highline. High on the Highline. Hi mom. Yeah, you're getting deep excited over here. No, but that's like been such a big part of my healing. Like, microdosing is really good for me. Really just like totally removes my anxiety. And I just feel present. And I'm in the moment. I'm not thinking about like all the things. It caused me anxiety. But did you have a lot of anxiety growing up? Yes. Yeah. And what do you think initially caused that? I think the divorce. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I felt a lot of unease. I think we think about like a toddler. And I've seen my, now that I've two kids, like see my kids at that age, like your parents are everything to you. The parents are just like your whole world. And I just can imagine the split. And being like so, like what's, like everyone's got different types of trauma. I think that was my initial trauma is having that, that split with my parents and trying to just make everything better again. And trying to, but I thought if they got back together, then things would be better. But you know, they're not, they were 26 when they got together. They were so young. Like that was. Yeah. But you don't understand any of that when you're nine or ten. No. You don't even know what that is. Did you ever, I mean, it sounds crazy, but I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that can look back on the late. Like in their childhood, was there a party that was like, oh, maybe it's my fault that they're not together? Oh, totally. 100%. Yeah. Absolutely. In fact, a lot of the work that I did in next year, I'm like, a lot was, and we can get to this, but like we did this process called an EM, an exploration of meaning. So you bring a stimulus response, like I mentioned earlier, and a lot of those, the memories that were holding the, the meaning or the reaction in place came, came from my, came from my childhood. And thinking like, you know, if I had been different or, yeah, you just like, at that age, you think that you're the cause because you're kind of, that's your little world. Right. It would just be different or better. I think it made me, it made me into a good girl. Like I was very much other than the acid, like I was a straight A student. I was, I was like, I was a, you know, I follow the rules. Mm hmm. So you get on this cruise with Martin and up, sit next to Mark, who makes this movie that this documentary that blows your mind. And he's already in next year at that time, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He had already taken a 16 day training and he, so he wasn't a coach yet or anything. What does that mean? 16 day training. So the, so keep in mind, this was like executive success programs. We weren't even using the term next year at that time that came later, but we, is, that's the next name of the umbrella. So I took, he took executive success programs, ESP, call it, there's a five day training and there's, that's the first five days of a 16 day training. And the idea was that was level one, similar to the bridge in Scientology, right? Makes sense. Yeah. People could do the five day or they could do the 16 day most people started with a five day and then finished the last 11. That's what I did, a five day and then I did the last 11 later. Okay. So he had just done the 16 day, which is the foundation for the rest of the curriculum. And he thought it was great. He met me and David and was like, well, if you liked my film, you, you probably like this thing I just did. And we spent seven days together with him and his girlfriend and his, on the cruise. And, I don't know if you've ever done a cruise. I was on a cruise that caught on fire one time. Oh, Jesus. Yeah, I've done a couple of cruises, grandparents, interesting times. So you know that you, like, you, you are at sea and then you dock and you explore some land and then you go back to sea. Right? So when we were at sea, we were watching films and doing film festival things in the big screening room. And then when we were in land, we were exploring, like, we were going to the Bahamas and think St. Bart's, you know, which was exotic. Exotic place. Exotic. Exotic. The water was beautiful. You know, with 300 like-minded filmmakers and it was, it was like the time of my life. I was like, this is, this is peak living. Yeah. You really can get close to people and those things. I'm not that serious. Yeah. You are very close. Especially when you're in these exotic places or going somewhere cool and if you're on it for a week or two weeks or, yeah, I was on one for three weeks one time, like it becomes your world a little bit? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I've, I felt there was another couple that were also there who I'm still in touch with, they're living in England. And so the six of us were kind of a little gang and we didn't really talk like we were just like a little family and, and we were talking about big things and Mark didn't even tell me that much about it. It was like, I knew there was a guy named Keith and he was a smart man and he was a chess player and a piano player and really smart and using his brain to create this humanitarian club. Is how it was pitched? I know. It's funny now. It's funny now. It's funny. It's funny that we were told he was celibate because you were told he was celibate. Oh, yeah. Get the fuck out. Yeah, we were told he was a celibate, renunciate. You know, renunciates? No. Does somebody who's like so self of like a ball they don't need material items. Like he did. That's why he didn't have a car. He was a renunciate. He's a celibate, renunciate like a monk. A monk is a renunciate. If someone has to sell themselves as a celibate, they're fucking more than anybody. I know. Right. Well, now we know. Yeah. I mean, there's certain things I look back at. I'm like, no. Oh, don't believe that. No, that, that actually. came into play around the time that we joined because they hadn't had that as part of the image. There was sort of like more, it was more, I've learned this later, that he was more open about his polyamorous lifestyle. Yeah, and then when people like myself and Mark came in, they were like, "We need to change this," and they like purposely lied because they didn't think that we'd be able to like understand why that would be ethical, you know? So they decided to not disclose that to us. It was a whole strategy. It was a really opposite. Yeah, he just celebrated, it didn't need sex, so, you know. But Mark, I mean, obviously you respected him as a filmmaker, and you had these, you kind of saw things you were looking for through the art he made and everything, but would you say it was a pretty magnetic guy, too? Like you were drawn to him, not necessarily romantically. Yeah, no, no. I mean, I definitely looked up to him, and you know, he put him on a bit of a pedestal, and he, if anything, like we actually joked about it later in "Nexium," he was a little bit, even though we connected, and obviously, like I followed his lead, he was also a little bit standoff-ish, and that kind of Hollywood filmmaker, kind of, to a cool way, and that was one of the things that "Nexium" did with him, has made him more warm and more approachable. So even though he was, you know, I was drawn to him, and his girlfriend, I was like, you know, we're best buds now, like BFS Forever, I was also like, you know, the power differential was still there, like he was the filmmaker, and I'm an actress, and you know, I don't know, it was a bit of boats, that makes sense, it wasn't like super clear as to like, we're on the same playing field, I guess. Yeah, there's some, Lazal was never in it, but I've talked enough people, there's some interesting dynamics that have always been in play in that, in that industry, in particularly in the whole pecking order and stuff, and we see it where it goes like, really dark, you know, with like the Harvey Weinstein stuff, but just in general on a day-to-day, it's like, I'm me, you're you, you're you, you know what I mean? Oh, the film industry is, I mean, in some ways it kind of has to be, I don't know if you could have a set where like everyone's the same, like there has to be somebody calling the shots, but like, if someone's an asshole, right, it's gonna affect everything, and that trickles down and whatnot, but there has to be, like, you know, there has to be a president, there has to be an AD, there has to be a director, there has to be someone, that's life. Yeah, it is life, and. But the way you treat people, doesn't have to be reflective of you needing to be above them, you know what I mean? Like I, this will remain nameless obviously, but I was talking with a friend of mine who, let's just say, is like, directly connected in that industry, and, you know, you're asking them the questions like, all right, who's great, who sucks, that kind of thing, and again, without name and names, it was so fascinating to hear people who were, you know, these megastars or whatever that are effectively like on the same levels and how opposite some of them are. Yeah. Like, and they all present kind of the same thing publicly, you wouldn't really be able to know, but you're like, this person's amazing, here's why, here's how they treat people, here's what they do, this person sucks, here's why, here's, and then you hear some of the stories, you're like, that's not real, and they're like, 100%, they do that. And you're like, come on, man, but I guess I don't know, maybe some people get so big that, and, you know, their life is on camera, I'm talking about actors in particularly, that they start to think they're like that thing, which also sounds like someone else, I'm thinking of right now, but, you know what I mean? It's similar. It's similar. And it's also like, you never really know what's going on in people's lives. Like, one of the very first experiences I had on set around that time when I first started acting in the late 90s is I was Rose McGowan's body double. Oh, yeah. So we're the same height and weight. Can you pull up Rose McGowan real fast? I could see like, we're the same height weight, her, she's more well in doubt than I am, but we're the same height and weight. And so I was her body double and I was her, um, stand and this her now, but like, look at her back then. Yeah, yeah, the fifth one right there, Dave, so you're with the hair, fifth and seventh. Let's see that one. Yeah. And then go to over. Perfect. Yeah, I see why same kind of. Yes. And she was lovely and it was a film that she was in with Ellen Alda and the highlight of my career is at one scene she wasn't ready and I got to read lines off camera with all and Alda, which was amazing. That's pretty cool. Yeah, but she on set, I just will never forget this is, is that she had the reputation of being a bit of a diva. Like we were, you know, shooting far away in the suburbs and she wanted a particular kind of lot dance. I wanted to get the particular lot day. And everyone's like, oh my god, this is a diva. And I remember her being like a little, like she was great with me, really taught me so much, like really took me under her wing. It was so kind. Um, but she had this, you know, reputation on set and then I found out years later after reading her book, which is amazing, by the way. And she was one of the first me tours against Harvey Weinstein and her depiction of how that happened is fucking horrific. And I have so much respect for her. But when I did the math, I was like, oh, that must have happened just before I met her. Wow. You know, and so that, you know, she was fucking great by Harvey Weinstein in a hotel room when she's going up for a meeting that her agent set up in the, it's just, I mean, that's a whole other tangent. But my point is, you never know what's going on for people. For sure. I quick question on that, though. Yeah. Do you not see some patterns in that too? Oh, yeah. No, it's very, we don't put it in the same category as like the actual literal cults and stuff we see. But how's he that much different? No, he's not. And this is where I like our podcast a little bit culty when we've talked about stuff like this all the time because it's the same power dynamic 100% and he, I mean, we like the cult of Hollywood as a whole other separate story, like how these people have power and all these enablers in our, in our space, they call them flying monkeys. Flying monkeys. You know, from the Wizard of Oz. Yeah. So the, the witch has the flying monkeys to do the dirty work. So the narcissist and the power position doesn't always do the, all the things to set it up. So they just sort of receive the benefits. Sure. So YNC also had like, you know, assistance bringing rose down from the downstairs table where she's been waiting patiently to have lunch. Oh, he's just finishing a meeting. Why don't you come up to the foyer? She's with somebody. She's not like, I'm going to go to the hotel room and get a job. She's like being led by an assistant who knows what's going to happen. He knows what's going to happen. Very Epstein-like. Yeah. Yeah. And I know you're, you probably know so much about that now. I, I saw your list of titles. I was like, could we just talk about Epstein and aliens? Yeah. Now listen, we've done it. We've done probably five, six episodes before on Epstein. Yeah. You know, that, that is a case I've looked at since basically like the inception of it really blowing out. And it, it's one that you never get any less sick or desensitized to it. Yeah. Study in that one. I'm sure. It just gets worse. It gets worse. And so, Jillian Maxwell would also be an example of a flying monkey, but also, you know, a co-conspirator and enable our and all the things in a legal sense and actual physical sense. So and Keith had those two. Keith had a few, Jillian's around him that did. Well, let me ask you not specifically about the Keith ones. Let's look at, let's stay with this other example for a minute. Sure. I'd love to know now you being outside it. What your example was because as, as you, I think we said this off-camera, so I want to say this on camera too. You worked on the business side of Nexium. And when they tried to pull you deep into the other side of it, that's when you went, no, holy shit. So one of the things that happened when you and some other people bravely went and whistle blew this whole thing is you were falsely titled in various publications is like, oh, a foreign ex recruiter for sex, whatever, you know, comes clean about Nexium when in reality, you never did that. But what I want to ask you about is not even getting to the Nexium ones who did, but like stay with Epstein for a second, Nakhilin, some of the girls that he got to when they were 16, 17, who he abused and then who, informing that relationship of abuse, kept on, who then later, you know, in their young 20s, went in recruited girls for him. How do you, what do you make of that, and how do you view that? Ah, it's so complicated. Yes. I, for especially 16-year-olds who don't know much else, like I joined when I was 26, turning 27. So I feel like I had a little bit more, a little bit more life experience. And I think that's ultimately what kept me out of the, you know, Keith's clutches. I kept him at bay in a way that I think, like I wasn't looking for a father figure in the same way that some of the other women were and that we can go into that as well. So I think when you, when you join something like that at 16, you don't necessarily know how wrong that is, like it's just what becomes normal. So I don't think it's, obviously I don't think it's right. And you know, people need to be held accountable, but I totally have, I don't know, I don't have the word for it. I understand how it happens. Yes. And I, I actually spoke to one of those women when I first got out and I don't even know her name to keep, I can't, because this is seven years ago, but one of those women reached out to me and was trying to figure out how to like, what should she, should she do now? Like should she bus through it? Like I did and like just come out with it and, and like write a book and, you know, and bus through the shame or should she like go into hiding because she wasn't sure. And actually I've lost touch with her. I don't know what she decided to do. I think she went the other way and decided just to like rebuild her life and, and not expose it because she was so ashamed, so ashamed. And I, I think that's what keeps people quiet is that if they do wake up from something like this, like I did, then, and, and they, and there were sex involved and they did bad things. Like why would you want to even talk about it? Right. So, So I have a lot of empathy, I guess that's the word of empathy for that journey. And like nobody wanted, I didn't want this, I didn't sign up for this and sign up for Keith's initials on my body. They didn't sign up to be, you know, pimps for Jeffrey Epstein, they signed up for security and safety and whatever it was they thought they were getting at the beginning. And that's the thing. It's always bait and switch. Thank you guys for checking out this clip. If you haven't already subscribed, please subscribe and hit the like button on this video. It is a huge, huge help. And if you'd like to check out this clip's full podcast episode, that link is in the description below or right here. And finally, you can follow me on Instagram and X by using the links in my description below.