The Hit Factory: Stock, Aitken and Waterman (Part 4)

[Music] Welcome back to Part 4 and the final chapter of Stock Akin and Watermans Hip Factory. [Music] Oh, come on in. [Music] Welcome to the Hip Factory in London. This is where a host of stars come every week to make their records. And for the last three years, a record from this building has been in the top 40 every single week. [Music] When we left them, the trio were at the height of their success. Multiple Ivan Avello Awards, more hit songs than the Beatles, and yet despite all this, the cracks had appeared as unbelievably, they were losing money at an alarming rate. And like many artists and bands before them, creative differences meant that they were heading for an inevitable fall. [Music] And so we come to the fall of Stock Akin and Watermans. Sad. It is sad. We spent a lot of time with them. We have, and I do like them. I consider them friends. But not with each other. I see. Yeah, that's where we can find out. 89 is their peak. We've discussed 27% of the whole of the UK recording industry. You know, they're winning all these awards. Kylie, Jason, etc. etc. Band-Aid 2. It always ends badly. And I suppose the way to think of it is of Stock Akin and Watermans as a band. Band so often end up in court. Why don't we start with a couple of examples of big 80s bands that end up in court? Because that's where we're going. Okay. Spand our ballet. And that was going to be my first, yeah, of course, Spand our ballet. And this? That's another one. Okay. Do you want me to hear about first? Let's do Spand our. [Music] Spand our ballet, one of the two big, new romantic groups of the 80s. Yeah, those things are on your own. Who are still, I think, all together for lineup, which is an incredible achievement. What a feat of longevity. Yeah. Three former members sued Gary Kemp, the songwriter of Spand our ballet. Martin Kemp, the other member who's Gary's brother, kept his head down. I think that's wise. Don't sue your brother. Don't see your brother. What is that? He got it down side with your brother. Just keep out of it. No, I don't know what. It's quite something. But he certainly wasn't involved in the court case. They're mates still. They're on good terms. They're on very good terms. Yeah. They wanted 1 million pounds, which feels too round. A little bit, Dr. Evil, isn't it? Very, very Dr. Evil. So it's Tony Hadley, the singer, the dry-unut, John Kebel and sax player Steve Norman. And did they want a million each? Or did they want a million just a bit between the three of them? I think it's a million between the three of them, which doesn't feel like enough. It doesn't feel like enough for everything they've been through. They lose. Just this park says he finds it unconscionable for the three to lay claim to large sums of money, which they knew Ken put regarded as his. So they lose. And then 10 years later, they get back together. But not with Tony Hadley. Is that with Tony Hadley? With Tony Hadley. With Tony Hadley. No. That's. You know when people say I could never see this band X getting back together, the XX. I could never see a band getting back together. Yeah. Think about this one. They've sued him. And then in 2009, they get back together for reunion. 2017, Tony Hadley leaves again. How tense must it have been that first rehearsal? I know. When the last time they saw each other presumably, in the dot was, yeah, they were all wearing their best suits. Yeah. And not, you know, like funny looking suits, like they used to wear any Hases with massive shoulder pads. Well, that was a mistake. They wore them to court. They were in contempt of court for funny outfills. I can't award you a million pounds. You're wearing makeup. You've got a white strife across your face. Come on. What do you think? Tony Hadley says now, you could offer me all the tea and shying out and I wouldn't get back with them. And he loves tea. He loves tea. That's what they originally sued for, all the tea and shying out, but they had to bring it down. Can you give it a little numerical figure? There is a very specific reason I left and they've never been brave enough to say it. I'd absolutely love to know. What could someone see Tony Hadley in the street? Could you ask him an email? What's the specific reason that you left? This is a thing though, because I think it happened with the Beatles. But you start a band and you don't imagine the success you're going to get. You start it as very young people. You start it as mates. You start as mates and then you become business partners. So the Smith is the other classic of the. Well, I think also you change a lot. You're in your early 20s and you start the band. You're knocking on for 30 when you end the band. Very different people. It's okay, you're going to want when you're in your early 40s and if you leave in your early 50s. Yeah, the Smith is another great example. The Smith is Johnny Mar and Morrissey. Morrissey is a singer who writes the lyrics and the melodies Johnny Mar was the music. We were talking about this the other day. A huge contribution. More so than anything, I think Morrissey to the Smith. Yes. So they're taking 40% each. We rock the bass player and Mike Joyce, the drummer, are taking 10% each. That is of performance and recording royalties. Right. That's interesting. Which bit? Performance, I think. Yeah, because you've been split that four ways, surely. Yeah. Live. You're kind of all playing it. That said, if someone's not showing up, it's someone from the rhythm section. If you were going. If you want to talk to Smith and they said, sorry, the bassist isn't here. You'd be like, oh, I can handle that. Yeah. Well, as these days you'd say the singer, ideally, wouldn't be there. So Morrissey and Mar are sued after the band break up. The band break up in 1987 because Johnny Mar leaves. And so Morrissey and Mar are sued by Andy Rook and Mike Joyce. Rook and Joyce, their barrister, says they were treated as session musicians as readily replaceable as parts in the role-murror. And you've got to say in some ways weakening their argument. Does we clear that is their own barrister? Oh, I say, lawnmower isn't our choice. Yeah. For things that you'd get, oh, I need to go to the spare parts shop. Or for your car. No, no, from a lawnmower. I think most people just chuck the lawnmower away. Yeah. Take it down the tip and put it to the side. Fix it in my fly-mo. They're 80 quid. Come on. So Rook is in debt at the time. So he settles for 83 grand. Oh, and 10% of Rorties. He remains on 10%. So he just ends up with 83 grand. Joyce goes for it. And they find in favor of Joyce. So in conclusion, Morrissey and Mar couldn't legally prove the 40, 40, 10, 10 split had been explained to them in section. Right. Joyce gets a million quid and 25% of the split. Oh, no. You've got to fill Rook. That's brutal. Yeah. If I was Joyce, I'd send Rook some money. Yeah, but then he has left you to fight the court case. That's true. Like, it must have been awful for Joyce when Rook said, yeah, I'm backing out of this. And you're like, oh, come on, mate. The other bit of the lawnmower's gone. I've got to go to-- [LAUGHS] Incredibly, in the summing up, the judge ranked the band by their IQs. [LAUGHS] What? He declared, "Mar to be the most intelligent." OK. "And stated that Rok and Joyce were unintellectual." Oh, no. Come. I mean, I guess you've won in court, but still-- Yeah. --been called a thicker by a higher court judge. He's done. I've been going, "Millen Quid, you think I'll go?" [LAUGHS] But he does say Rok and Joyce are straightforward and honest. Yeah. Morrisey is devious, truckulent, and unreliable, whereas own interests for a stake. I think that's fair to say. And he said, "Mar was willing to embroider his evidence to a point where he became less credible." Morrisey's still never gets over this. The bit of it in his book. So his book is nearly unreadable book. I lose the word nearly. [LAUGHS] He has 77 pages on the Smiths, which is obviously the most important bit of his life to everyone. Yeah. He has 40 pages on the trial. No. That is something else, isn't it? That should have been a 10% split. Yeah. That's where you should be doing the 10% split, mate. So these things can all go very badly wrong. Yeah, of course. And Pete, Mike, and Matt are about to be struck by the spanned out and Smith's curse. So basically what happens is September 89-- so this is right at the peak-- David Howles, who is the MD of Pete Morton and limited Pete's record label. Since due to success of them, he wants to step it up and make the mysterious rival to major labels. Now, they're already doing 27%. I suppose they're not doing 27% of the record label, but Stockake and Waterman are. So his plan is to move staff away from the studio and into a building on the other side of the road. Mike's like this. As he thinks the whole point is the hit factory, he is everyone, the camaraderie and the connection between the staff under one roof. There's an incredible footage of Pete showing a camera crew around that building. And he's like, here's the biggest publishing company in the UK. And it's just one woman sat in there with a few phones. with a few phones. - Yeah. - So it is really like independent and small. I don't know, it's difficult, isn't it? 'Cause they are a major company. So how long can you carry on acting like you're not a major company, I suppose? - Yeah, acting like the underdogs. They're major in the sense of what they're doing, but they're not a major label. - Yeah. (upbeat music) - It's basically known that song, actually. Chorus of too many broken hats. - But we're here at PWL, which of course is the home of Stock A. Conworderman, and this is where we actually get to make the records. And I thought that I'd like to show you around, so come and have a look. - So Mike says, he thinks trying to compete with major labels means that sword lose the unique character that was the foundation of its very success. If we haven't got it, let me just put it in here. Stock A. Conworderman or SAW sword. So if I say sword in these podcasts, you're not talking about the franchise. - I'm not talking about the chorus franchise. - I'm talking about Stock A. Conword. - With Jigsaw and the Little Puff. - Yeah. - That sounds very confusing. - The whole part like, this Kevin Sting, the sword franchise. - Yeah, we turn down Spielberg, I remember that, but then he moved into the horror genre. I mean, I know some of Sonya's records were a bit much to stomach, but it's not the same as a bathtub full of, yes, there's arranges. - Yeah. - So just to be clear, sword is Stock A. Conworderman. - For the remainder of these podcasts. - Yes. - And saw as how they were after the court case. - Exactly. So Mike's like, "Oh, you're ruining this 'cause we're trying to be in a major label. Pete blames everyone getting accountants." (laughs) - I don't know if that's it. In terms of excuses, that's from the dodger end, isn't it? - Well, I don't know. This is what he says. He says that saw at one point was making a million pounds a day. - Okay. - But still had financial issues as they got too big. I don't know. It all feels like a total financial mess. What you will find if you're a fan of this podcast series, we have the same when I was talking about Noel Edmund's financial issues and we'll come up many times. The moment I get into financial issues, my mind really struggles with it. - Yeah, you've got no head for economics. - I've got no head for economics. Much like the people at Stock A. Conworderman. - For a while you were there accounting. - But yeah, it's the same. (laughing) So then somehow it's revealed to Pete, P.W.L., Pete Waterman Limited, his record label, owes 8.9 million pounds to the bank. - Oh no, that's nine days work. - Even though their number one in the charts every week. - Where's all the money going? - I don't know. - So Pete says the worst thing that's ever happened to Pete Waterman Limited was Kylie Minogue because yeah, I know you can see it feel sad. - I do feel sad because surely that was one of the best things that's happened. - Well, success has changed the company completely. It basically the success of Kylie Minogue has led them into this different direction, I suppose he's arguing. - This is classic Pete Waterman, "Blame in a Woman". (laughing) - It's her prerogative. (laughing) - It's difficult because it's such a shame when things like this happen. - Yeah. - Not because I'm desperate for them to have made loads of money, but you're like, "How have you fucked this up? Like how has it come to this?" - I just can't compute the 365 million pounds a year and they can't afford nine million pounds to sort out their debts. - I know. - The three million pounds a year. - It's any borough? - 365 million pounds a year is stockake in Waterman and then the debts as Pete Waterman limited. So I don't really understand how all that is split as well. - I don't understand either. - In his book, Pete says, "And this is good news that he was never in it for the money." - That's lucky. - And then he lived a modest lifestyle. He never took a salary and he only bought one house worth 70,000 pounds while the others were spending get this on a house. Half a million pounds. - Oh, that's disgusting. Imagine living in a half a million pound house in London. - In London. - Are you finding a half of me about house in London? (laughing) - I don't know what Pete was living in a 70 grand house in London. In the same birthday, he does admit he had a large car collection of 18 for our res which cost him 3.2 million pounds. So he realized it all got out of hand. Another Christmas party. This is two years after the Lenny Henry one. - Can we guess the location in DJ or is that lost? - Well, Lenny Henry announces the accounts. (laughing) It was a Christmas party slash AGM. - Yeah. Do you want to guess where it was? I don't know who the DJ was. - It's someone like the Grovener? - Yeah, close enough. The Savoy. - Of course, yeah. - And there were 2,000 people there connected to the company and Pete thought, this is too much. This is too big. He used to just be us three guys with a microphone that we'd got for free. - And as a little tribute to their days, you know, their glory days, they served one burger and one pint and 2,000 people at a maximum of self as for a slice. - Well, that's all they could afford. So Pete's trying to bail out, Pete Watteman limited. He brings in a new label which is called Black Diamond to operate alongside Saw. - Okay. - Black Diamond released basically low production tracks from the continent. So it's a kind of, okay. - Keep pile 'em high, sell 'em out. - Peecey Euro Pop type stuff. - Yeah. - Matt hates Black Diamond. - Okay. - 'Cause he says the records were aimed at drug and dance culture. And that Black Diamond would often discuss the quality of the latest drugs on the market. - Again, it's another classic reason why things all fall apart because it gets a bit too dark and druggy. - Well, I wouldn't say so. There's, I'd say that a drug adjacent. (laughing) Somebody in the building is on drugs. - Somebody in the building. - And that's an absolutely new, these three-bit parts. - He's discussing drugs. - That's true. (laughing) - It's someone, nearby is discussing drugs. And that is just the living area. - That's beyond the pale. So that was Matt who hates that. Mike believes that music of the '90s and '80s, obviously, this is the turn of '80s to '90s. Is incredibly different. He pinpointed it to March 1990. - And he guesses? - What's happening in March 1990? - The poll tax rights. - Oh, okay. I thought it was gonna be Pete Ler's to read. (laughing) - We will tie that story up later. Don't worry. - Okay, great. - And if you were worried about that. - No, no, no. He learns to read and realize it's what financial trouble he's in. (laughing) - He learns to count to 10. (laughing) If he was the end of him. - According to Mike, basically, and this is another thing for them being the perfect, thatcherite kind of thing. - Yeah. - The poll tax rights comes along. And Mike says, at that point, pop music becomes bleak and drug-orientated. - Okay. I don't know. - I mean, I-- - I think it's the rave culture. - Rave culture is definitely massive. - As the rise of ecstasy. - Yeah. - And obviously, Matt wouldn't like this, 'cause we're discussing drugs. (laughing) - Very much again. - Not the quality of drugs. - Just the existence of drugs. - Yeah, no existence of drugs. So Mike, along with Matt, is very anti-drugs. He's not just discussing them. He's anti-drugs as well. - I mean, he's got the courage in his conviction. He refuses to have them in the studio. And he says that him and Matt, to let off steam, they wouldn't take drugs. They would have hard-fought ping pong battles. - The only white line they care about is across the table. (laughing) - There's an innocence to stockake in a warm-up. - Yeah, you would imagine, because you think of the '80s as quite an excessive time. - Yeah. - But it seems like they weren't swept up in it, or they were almost as squeaky clean as their acts. - Yeah, and you don't-- - And you don't. - And you don't. - In a way, their songs weren't that cynical. They weren't-- - No. - Coked up guys writing cheesy pop. I mean, he says he wasn't writing it from self. We've discussed this. But in a way, he's writing it for the people who are similarly square. - Yeah. - Sweet, good-natured young people. - Yeah. - Which is kind of what they, they're good-hearted people, it seems like. - Yeah. Mike never touched cocaine. Little addendum, he is aware that in order to print an album, you'd be told to just send a grammar coke to the plug-up or DJ, and they'll promote your record. - Right. - So he's aware of that as a practice. - So he never took part in that practice. - It's incredible that that practice kind of went on. Mike's still going, "I've got no idea. I doubt it does still go." - I can't imagine so. - I'm not in that world of music plug-ups, but I can't imagine anyone's. It feels like it's almost like the kind of drinking in the middle of the day culture. - Yeah. - All of that sort of things kind of gone. There might still be people who use coke, but they're sort of sending it through the post with a CD. - It seems very dangerous. - Yeah. Pete, very versatile drugs. So they're all very versatile drugs. Pete says, "I say I didn't do drugs, and I say I didn't have a mistress, but I did all my life. My mistress, my drug, was music." - Oh, I thought it was the same model of trains. - No, it was music. I put music first. I put it before my marriages. Before my kids growing up, it's my biggest regret of my life that I did that. My marriages failed because I didn't give them the time. I never stopped. For somebody who's not on drugs, that's quite a. - It's quite a sort of 4am conversation that you have, isn't it? - When do you think he did his line of cocaine? - Did he do it at an awards ceremony? Was it one of the Ivan Nevello awards? - No. - Was it before he called himself the Savory of Music? - No. The only time I ever done cocaine in my life, well, you know, how'd you start for 36 hours when recording that you spin me around by dead or alive? - So it was very early on. - Really? - Yeah. - This is not for me. - Yeah. - I'm happy to get the number one single, but not on these terms. - Exactly. - Exactly. number one single he did cocaine. But no more. See a lot of people sort of get to the top and then they start the drugs to kind of maintain it. But actually he did the drugs and went, "No, thank you." No, thank you. Yeah. So black diamonds. Black diamonds are not too drugs too. No, yeah, of course. If anyone's been. Black diamond, that's going on. That's not popular in the kind of stock-aikin' and water-man world. Really, it is with Pete, I suppose. So it all goes wrong financially. Pete's quote, "A gorilla could have run it better than we were running it. Should never have left the business side get separated from the creative side." So he kind of agrees with Mike Stock there, though. So May 1991, not that long after the peak of '89, Matt Leaves. He's had no. Oh, no. You'd have think there'd be a longer tale, wouldn't you? If you're that high, you wouldn't think it could go wrong that quickly. But I guess, especially if you're dealing in singles, you're only as big as your latest hit. Yeah. And you have a few slightly duff songs on the bounce and. Yeah. That's it. So Matt Leaves May 1991, Mike and Pete tried to carry on, but it's the magic's gone. By this point, the KLF have moved in. It's Stock Aikin at this point. No, is it Stock Aikin? It's Stock Waterman. It's Stock Waterman. It doesn't even work, does it? It doesn't even work. Waterman Stock, Stock Waterman. Stock Waterman sounds like a publishing company. They try and hire another person that's got a vowel at the start of their name. It all goes wrong. October 91, Pete to get him out of the financial problem. He signs the company to warn us. Got in bed with the big dogs. It gets in bed with the big dogs, not even the big dogs fucking. And he soon realises it's a dud deal. It's a bad deal. Can he read it at this stage? He can read it at this stage. So he read the contract. But he just. Should Mike have warned him, Mike didn't know this was happening. So Mike says that one day Pete was in the office and he's delighted because he's got his salary check from Warner. And Mike's like confused. And then he discovers that without his knowledge, Pete has sold 50% of Pete Waterman limited to Warner's. In a deal worth millions, Mike hasn't seen a penny of it. Oh no. I think that's game over by that point. That's bad news. That's game over. But it's not the final straw. The final straw is when Pete asked Mike to write more material for dead and alive. How are they still thinking about it? He's like, look, it's coming to end. Let's book end this. Let's book end this. Started with burns. We end with burns. But he's only willing to give Mike 25% of the deal. The game's gone here. Mike says I'll be on my way and that's that. Yeah. Sad times. It's really sad, but I think Mike did the right thing. It's all because of money really. Yeah. I don't think there's any creative differences. If we're going to be brutally honest about it, Pete Warton would not be that creative. He had a bunch of telephone conversations that happened to be turning to hit songs, but he wasn't writing the songs himself. Yeah. 25% is not enough. It's best to hear them what happened from Mike's book, because it's better to hear it from him than Pete. After a few years, when Warner won't get any new hits, they took the other 50% voted Pete off the board as director. Took PWL into Warner and changed its name to Coalition. That would carry on until eventually Coalition went under and then Pete retained the name Pete Warton limited. But it's worth nothing at all. It's just to work his name. Pete says the only good thing to come out of his time at Warner was the success of To Unlimited. A lot of people say it's the only good thing to come out of the 90s. Yeah, exactly. So at this point, you know, it's all gone, it's up. Mike's disheartened by the sale of Pete Warton limited, once retained the rights to recordings, as he's made a handshake deal with Pete, but it doesn't happen. And for financial reasons, and Mike describes it as ugly. It's ugly. Yeah. As Mike writes, Pete had too much personal baggage that was always an undercurrent of something. He thought the world was unfair and he had an inferiority complex. By this point, they hate each other. Yeah. Or they at least hate Pete. I would say having spent, you know, three and a half episodes with him, I would not describe him as having an inferiority complex. I mean, Mike knows in better than I do. Yeah. Mike says it's difficult to call Pete a friend because there's always so much else going on. You couldn't time down. You'd never get a straight answer. I can imagine that. Yeah. We've got a simulation ship. And it ends up in court as this. 993, Pete comes into his office and he finds a letter from Matt and Mike Solicitors claiming there were 0 to 3rd of the company each. That seems fair. Pete disputes this, claims to put all the money into it. It takes seven years in court. Brutal. Yeah. So by now it's 999. And on the fifth day of the hearing, Stockonette can drop their claim. They'd claim that Pete parted with ownership or control of the rights of recordings by majoris without their consent in breach of a 1985 oral agreement. Well, that's the only agreement he could make in 1995. He couldn't read a right. That's so true. You get, I mean, a big contract in the air. A big proponent of adult literacy. Because this is the reason why. Because if you get into bed with someone who can't read and write, and no shade on anyone who can't read and write, who's an adult. But you know, so by this point, it's incredibly bitter. Mike says of, "Waterman is a buffoon who thinks talent is blonde hair and big tits." Oh, there's no need for that. I think there's some fear considering what he said about Sunitra as well. Come on, Mike. Pete, your focus on the hair and the tits. What about the legs? You got to have misogynists. He also says Pete spent a lot of time in Japan importing coy car. While he and A can actually wrote and recorded their famous hits, the 80s. That's the kind of detail I love that comes out in court cases. We were unsure where he was for the Kylie. He was in Japan importing coy car. Get goldfish to come over. Try to sign a few of them. So he eventually does a publishing deal with Matt and Mike. And they get a good payout. He gets a good payout. He says his check had more noughts than you could imagine. Pete says after we sign the check, he went home with cod chips, peas, and a diet Pepsi, and burnt the check. And then he says, "I've got the money back in the end." So I don't know what the point of burning the check is. This means nothing to me. I will get another copy of it. Sorry, I burnt the check. Talking of the KLF, I bet they wish they'd done it by check. Yeah, our mistake was burning the actual money. If we burnt the check symbolically, that would have been. Oh, it's sad, isn't it? Yeah. They're then set free to be themselves. Matt Aiken, I've got much on his post's "Saw career," but Mike Stock, he basically moves into novelty music. He doesn't help his reputation. In 1992, so this was post-Aiken, but before Stock and Waterman had gone their separate ways, they produced the fat slags cover of Summer Holiday. Oh, tea. Oh, tea. Oh, no. And I don't think he's should be kind. To the fat slags. To the fat slags. Which was to be clear, a character from the comic Viz. Yeah. They made a movie of the fat slags. So way too recently, I think. In 1994, Stock starts his own record label, "Love this records," and Matt joins. That's nice. Yeah. They mainly release re-versioned covers for pop acts. Basically, they work a lot with Simon Cowell, Pete's old friend. They do Robston and Jerome, Sonia, Five, Power Rangers, and Ziggins Ag. That's a good lineup. They did "Dem Girls, Dem Girls, They All Love Me." Yeah. Ziggins Ag, right? Yeah. And he does the World Wrestling Federation song "Slam Jam." "Slam Jam," yeah. He wrote that. "Slam Jam." But the label has to close. After London Underground's Jubilee line, compromises the integrity of the studio when it's being built. That. No, that can't be the reason. It can't be. Surely you can move to a different studio, couldn't you? What was the problem? The transport links were too good. I presume that they were digging and it was causing some sort of rumbling in their studio. I just know, like, "Well, we got to fold the links." You're making. Sorry, hacksaw, Jim Duggan. You have to record somewhere else. Fold the links. You can blame the Jubilee line for being late once in a while to work, but you can't blame them for the. Why don't you go in the way? Because it's a studio so key and difficult to set up and so exorantive to. They are rent. They are expensive, but it wasn't like the studio just collapsed in on itself. Surely they can take all the stuff in the studio and move it elsewhere. No, I don't know. Who knows? In 2003, he creates a record label, "Better the Devil Records" and then released the Fast Food Song, which gets to number two in the UK. That's passed me by. Do you remember the Fast Food Song? No. "Better the Devil" named after the Kylie Minogue Song, "Better the Devil," you know? Which is about Michael Hutchins. According to Pete, yeah, he said he'd said it. He said it over the phone, because he broke up with Jason and got together with Michael Hutchins. And he. Did he say it over the phone? - No, no. - All right. - And now he might. - I think. - That's what he said. - Yeah. - Is it better than you know? - So by this point, you're thinking, I don't know, I don't love stocks, post, sort, output. 2006, he does an album for Shane Ward, the X-Factor winner. - That's my goal. - And by the 2020, he's working with Bucks Fizz who are now known as the Fizz. - Fizz, yeah, yeah. - He gets their first top 30 album in 30 years. - Well, there we go. - Yeah. - It's off to him. - I think more interesting posts or is Pete Wattom? - Yes. - Who is by now a celebrity. - Shall we deal with his illiteracy first? - Yeah, let's talk about it. - 1986 is when he deals with it. - That's sort of just before they go absolutely massive. But that's like Rick Astelbeard. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rick Astelbeard is still making the tea, but he's not had a hit. That kind of era. Before going on holiday with his girlfriend, this is how he does learn to read. He buys a copy of Das Boot. - So he starts to read in German first. - Oh, presumably. - English version. - I'm passionate if he goes, he's good to his guys. I've learnt to read. Unfortunately, they say the language I don't speak. (laughing) - So he teaches himself phonetically from Das Boot. I don't know how that works. Before this, just to be clear, he has, he's kind of got his own symbols that he draws to keep notes of things such as song lyrics. - Like, "Harraglythics". - Yeah, he's got his own language, I suppose. And he has laws and accounts. He has the serious stuff. For instance, his oral agreement with stock LA can, whether or not that happened. The first thing he read off to Das Boot was Dickens. - Already when it's straight with the classics. He starts with our mutual friend. And he says he had it worked out within the first 30 pages. - I knew the end. - I don't know how cocky you can be when you've only just learnt to read in your 40s. - I mean, I prefer to when he was illiterate. - I knew the end and I was right. Because I'd done that, I instantly picked up another Dickens to see if I could start it out in 30 pages. And I could. - It's too great. - I know each of you guys could read now as Martin Dickens. - Then realized Dickens was a great, formalised writer. - Not unlike my two mates. - Well, you say you think Charles Dickens has nothing to do with songwriting. But you look at the way he observes life. And you think, I must look at things differently. Color things like he did. I've got to write about emotions. So you might have noticed actually in the Stock Haken and Waterman. Are these the titles of the songs? They're quite discensi enough, 1986. - That's the right. Everyone remembers song you a song, Little Doret. - Yeah. - Did you know he gave Noel Gallagher a start as well? - I didn't know that. I always thought that was Alan McGee. Or the Inspiral Carp. - No, so he says Noel Gallagher. I've had some absolutely unbelievable comments. But this was when Pete was a bin man. - I'm that. (laughing) - I gave him a lift, I had him. - He did a summer in the bins to blow a coffee. - I'm sick and tired of winning I've in a battle war. - I just become too commercialised. I'm gonna go and work down the jump. - I had some absolutely, this is Pete talk about Noel Gallagher. I've had some absolutely unbelievable conversations with him. When he was a gas fitter and Manchester, my studio was across the road from him. So he'd nip him over at lunchtime and steal my guitar strings 'cause he couldn't afford them. He always credits me with giving him his start. I've never heard him say that. - No, I've never heard that either. - Without my free guitar strings, he couldn't have carried on. - The one thing I will say about him is that he's not afraid to self-methologise. - No, I love that. - But I love that about him. There are certain people who you think, I mean, obviously he has made a massive impact on music, but he's not afraid to also exaggerate that impact. The band he did create, do you know the next big band that, maybe the final big band that he did create? - Is this off of like Pop Eye? - No, no, it's steps. - Right, yeah. - For Pete Wartam as the behind steps, the kind of bubble gum pop, - Well they-- - Strote line dancing band. - They were originally 'cause there was a line dancing craze and so five, six, seven, eight. - Well, yeah, this is what happens. So Pete says, "When I arrived at the steps audition, I didn't know they'd been turned down by every other record company. I was the last chance to learn a bit like Stockton Aiken." - Yeah. - It's quote, "If you're not very good, "we'll show you to Pete Wartam." Finally, it's slightly humble quote. I love it. (upbeat music) ♪ It's time to begin, I'm counting in ♪ ♪ Five, six, seven, eight ♪ ♪ My boot, boot and baby is driving ♪ ♪ Me who's raising my obsession ♪ ♪ From a Western, my dance go a day ♪ ♪ My Romeo, Romeo ♪ ♪ My cowboy's got some heads and toes ♪ ♪ Wanna make you mine, better get in line ♪ ♪ Five, six, seven, eight ♪ - Claire from Steps tells the story. This is why he signed them. They did one mind performance, which was they put on a demo of five, six, seven, eight, and didn't even pretend to have microphones and just kind of mined to it. In front of Pete and he said, "Hold on tight, this rocket is about to take off." - He's a cigar chomping mogul and he said the very words you wanna hear. There's only one thing he could have said that was better than that and that's coaching. - Yeah. Well, the good thing is, you worry about the people who he said that to but then it hasn't really gone anywhere. - Yeah. I think about this whenever there's stories of people doing their first appearance on the tonight show and they've written themselves a letter to open, there must be a lot of unopened letters. There must be a lot of people who've said, "Kill I'm gonna make you a star." There's never happened before. - Yeah, I was just not gonna make it. - But when it clicks into place. - Exactly. - You've got your story. Pete says, "I played the demo of five, six, seven, eight, to my co-producers who hated it." (laughing) There reaction was, "Oh my God, we wanna hit, but not at this price." - My kids love it. - Yeah. - It's a great song. - So they said, "We're not putting our name on that." And that's why, if you look at the credits in the song, there's only one nameless producer and that's mine. - Great. - I went on the Wikipedia, there's about five names. This is produced, but let's not. - Never let a like get in the way of a good story. - Well, maybe they've been added, post, you know, later as a long-awaited song. He then, in the 2000s, ITV did a show called Pop Stars where they create a band. - Yes. - And then that becomes a talent show called Pop Stars, The Rivals. - And then they need a judging panel and Pete Warman is obviously, he's the most famous record producer in the UK. - Yes. - So he is one of the three, along with Jerry Halleywell and Louis Walsh. It's a good panel. - That's a good line up. (upbeat music) - Welcome to Pop Stars, The Rivals. - Yeah. - The way that shows works is called The Rivals. There's a boy's band and a girl's band and Walsh mentors, the girls band and Pete mentors, the good's band. - He's a good band. - Sorry, Pete mentors. - You'd be more off. (laughing) - You really set your stool out there, haven't you? - There's girls band, two times a band. - There's two times a band, girl bands and good bands. (laughing) - There's girls allowed all the smits. - Yeah. - Well, the weird thing is, I mean, you trying to girls allowed when it's seen last year and there the girl band and Pete's band, a one true voice who disappeared without a fucking trace. Does he take that and is stride? - I can't imagine he does. - Girls allowed weren't put together by the public, he says, I'll leave it at that. I was naive enough to let the public vote for my artists. So basically, he's saying girls allowed was not a public vote. - Right. - ITV's investigation found no evidence of this and dismissed the allegations. (laughing) - So he's like Trump, interviewer, and find one true voice disappear. Girls allowed become the defining British pop band, certainly all female pop band, 'cause you got one direction. So the defining British female pop band of the 21st century. - Definitely, yeah. - Pete's very bitter, says, I don't know how the vote would be in any different. He says, there's a point in that show where he thought, this is over, I shouldn't be doing talent shows. And that's when Jerry Halley will turn up with a dog and had her in her lap during the auditions. - When she came in and put the dog on her lap, I thought, what am I actually doing here? - Dogs is a real theme in the Pete Walter M. story. - It had dogs should be fucking along this song. (laughing) - It had to be, it had to be fucking rhythmically. (laughing) A lot of people forget it, so you then went on to judge crafts. - That was the next, you said, I'm in the wrong game here. (laughing) - Jerry, what's your dog sound like when it's fart? Sorry, what? I'm in this for the music, I'm not in it for TV producers, stabbing each other in the back and lying to people and deliberately causing arguments on television. I'm trying to be honest to the public, but you're fixing things that I'm having to live with, so I'm out of here. - There is words. - Sure. - He does pop idol too and pop idol. I'm sorry. He walks off set and discussed when Michelle Mammann is wins pop idol too. He says it's fixed, but again, offers no proof. - Right, so basically, if people don't agree with him, he just assumes that they, but this is a man who's been in sync with the public for 25 years. - This is it and he has to retreat into the world of model trains. So then he stops being a judge, but he continues to be angry about it, really. He has got one good memory of pop idol, I should say. He says of Simon Cowell, who was on pop idol with him. That was Simon Cowell's big break, really. Simon Cowell both went out and bought brand new cars. Mine was a 5,000 series Mercedes. He bought a Bentley. The next day Simon was leaving the studio car park and smashed it right into mine. Without missing a beat, he got out the car through the car keys to the security guard, hailed a cab and didn't even look back. No one believed me, but it was all caught on security CCTV, which I kept and played at the Christmas party. (laughing) That absolutely sums Simon up. You've got to love him for that. - Do you? - Yeah, no, it feels a bit crashed. - It does feel a little crash, yeah. And I thought he was such a classy man. - Yeah, well, do you know what? I've never known a story with so many Christmas parties. (laughing) Constantly referring to these Christmas parties as big moments in his life. - It's like a sort of soap opera. - Yeah. - It's like everything happens around the big Christmas D. - Yeah. - X factor then takes over from pop idol, becomes the biggest show in the UK. - Yeah. - Is nothing to do with it. - He hates X-F. factor. He says he's the only person in Britain left who's not watching the X factor. Although, he says, "I might as well be glued to the wretched show every Saturday night for all the respite I get from the internable vacuous gossip about it." Each Monday morning, I'm treated to a digest of the latest show as I travel by chain to work from my own in Cheshire. I sit in the first-class carriage to try to get away from the people you watch IT there. On the Liverpool to Houston route, you might think my fellow commuters, businessmen, MPs, a clutch of lawyers and a smattering of city brokers, are better things discussed on a two-hour load journey. Are ailing economy perhaps or the state and public transport apparently not? Admittedly, that's my reading. I've given it a dramatic reading of that. He might be saying, but I feel that's how the words are. Yeah, there's definitely. I always say this as a lover of Pete Watersman after the last four hours. There's bile in there. There's definitely bile. The problem is, that was his own complaint back in the day. He wasn't like, "Oh, I turn on the television, it's all politics and nonsense. I don't want that. I want pop music." Then when people talk about pop music that doesn't happen to be his pop music, he can't handle it. He says, "One direction is a band, but it's sure as a hell isn't anything to do with music." They are the greatest marketing phenomenon ever, but imagine for a moment if they really could sing, really did write great songs. They would be worth squillians. Well, I mean, look at Harry Styles. Harry Styles has done amazing business since then. It's a shame because I loved him at the top, and maybe we all get a little bit or about other success in old age. I think there is definitely an era for the two of us where we start complaining about younger comedians. It's not happened yet. No, really. But it will happen. And I can't wait. So we start it now. Yeah. In fact, we do four hours of that after this. Let's end on a nice note for Pete. In 2024, he achieved the record for the largest portable model railway, and he cried when it was awarded to him. He's a good man. I found that actually quite moving. Yeah. To see somebody who has been at the top of the show business tree, you know, dominating pop music, something as sweet as model railway making. And also, to be so gracious, he's not just saying, "Oh, I've done this." He's not being egotistical. He's saying, "It's all of these guys who've helped me manage this." I just gave him the title for the railway. I just said the word railway down the phone and they did the rest. But by the way, I am still getting 90% of it. And that kind of brings it to an end. It's an incredible story. And it is amazing what they've achieved as three guys who basically dominated British recording in a way that no one has argued recently to the Beatles to quote, "Mike's stock." Maybe they don't get the credit they deserve because they're stock aching a warm and or because they're kind of hidden. Mike does have that regret, not just from the public, but he says, "Despite all the work we put him for our eyes, it was very rare to get any positive feedback on only a couple of occasions I can remember an artist ever saying, 'Thank you for giving me a hit record.'" Sonia was one of them. Similarly, Robson Green thanked Mike for his house. That's an important lesson there because it costs nothing but it means everything. Doesn't mean the word "thank you." Is there anyone you'd like to thank for your success? No, I've done it alone. Of course you have. Yeah. The Hitman. The Hitman of Comedy. No, actually, I said that Aiken, he's been doing all my stuff for last decade. That's why he's not been heard of. You'd love to say a big thank you to Mike Aiken. I'm sorry. I'd say it all my heart. Oh, sorry. Sorry, man. He's got my name. Do you know one of the problems? The whole story would have been less confusing if Matt and Mike didn't have such a similar first name. It's very true. It's very true. But I think Mike is still proud. It's amazing what they achieved. He says we had over 100 top 40 hits, not including the albums. So I was writing recording 70 songs a year including cover versions. Every Kylie Minogue album went multi platinum and he says, "I may not have gold taps in my house, but I probably have the world's largest collection of gold discs. Just get the gold taps." Yeah. Just melt them down. Yeah. It's a taps. Melt down, Sonia. Why not? She thanked you. No, don't melt down. So you don't melt down Rob's in your own. Matt says we did make some stinkers. There's no question about that. So you know, there's both sides of it. And I think that's if you're putting out that volume. Exactly. Of course. Yeah. But you made some stinkers that did really well as well. Yeah. You made some great records that didn't. That's the nature of being creative. I think the best way to sum up their achievement is Mike does it in his book where he says, "In the music industry, there's loads of people from recording studios to everyone at the record label, lawyers, accountants to performers." And then he says, "There's one key element that keeps this fuzzy entity focused and together, a great pop song. The bottom line when all the arguing and debaters over is everyone needs a hit. In other words, they'd all be out of a job without me and my fellow hit writers." Did you find that you couldn't explain Goosebumps then? Yeah. Yeah. I was, I'm more Goosebumps than man at this stage. I think I just turned to one big giant nipple. So in conclusion, has your view of stock aching a warm and changed? I definitely have a tremendous amount of respect for what they did. And I think it's tricky because there's still seen as a bit of a sort of punch line. Yeah. But there were a real soundtrack to the 80s and a lot of those songs are still getting played, you know? Yeah. And, you know, Rick Astley's sort of back and touring and seen as a semi-credible. Is that fair to say? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rick Astley. And, you know, Kylie, exactly. If launched the career of one of the greatest pop stars of all time. And I think even if you just distill it to numbers, what they achieved was absolutely unheralded. Whether you like the music or not, that is a very difficult thing to do. And without any of one of the three, it probably wouldn't have happened. I agree with you. If that one is stock. [laughter] Or possibly aching. But I think there's something, and you see this in people, and you see this in so many people, these people that managed to achieve this have a weird personality that is so much self-belief, so much kind of bluster, so much doing things their own way, so much not being able to read and then suddenly saying, "You understand Charles Dickens?" That I think it takes that sort of person to achieve what they did. It definitely does, yeah. He's a sort of classic British eccentric in the best possible way. And I can only hope that they reunite like Spandale Ballet. Who would they work with now? Well, exactly. That's the problem. They were prolected at their times. And sometimes it's better to just go and what an amazing thing they achieved. Does it matter that they went on to do the fast food song? No. Let's focus on that. Absolutely glory, please. Let's focus on, I should be so lucky, let's focus on, never going to give you up, let's focus on, I'd rather jack by the Reynolds girls. Exactly. And there you go. It's the ultimate rise and fall. It's Britain in the 80s. It's a man who really straddled post-war Britain and then all the way through to the talent show. It is, I suppose if you've got this far, you probably agree, the greatest story I've ever told. I believe so, yeah. There's nothing he couldn't do apart from taking graves. Thank you, Matthew. Would you like to plug in, I think? Yes, I'd like to plug, I've just done four episodes of a podcast with Josh Widdekum, all about Pete Waterman. So if you're a fan of Pete Waterman, it's a sort of deep dive on his career. Yeah. If you've got to this point, go back and listen to the first three. Oh, absolutely. Because they're more successful than you think. Hi, advice. Everybody to try and be a pop star. Because it's a wonderful, it's a wonderful existence. I mean, I left school at 30 and a half. I couldn't read in a write. There's only one thing I ever wanted to do in life, and I was getting to the music business. Coming from Coventry, in 1974, I think, is when I actually started to try and get into business. It was impossible. I mean, it was all London, London, London. But I just decided I was going to get in it. No matter how long it took me or what it took, you know, I worked. I've done all the working three days around the clock, fetching sandwiches for anybody and everybody. No, I advised everybody to at least have a go at it. I mean, they're not all going to make it, but at least they'll have great stories to tell their grandchildren. It was the unveiling of a blue plaque in their honour at London's Vineyard Studios. Katie, they're up there with Dickens with Agatha Christie, aren't they? Absolutely. They're the equivalent of pop. I'm lucky enough to be joined now by Mike Scott, Matt, Aiken and Pete Waterman. Come with me before we talk even. What do you make of the crowds here? So many people have turned out to see your plaque today. Quite a mate. Well, I'm knocked that way. ♪ You're looking, looking, looking, looking ♪ ♪ I should be so lucky, love ♪ - Well, thanks for joining us. I know that it's very interesting for people who actually haven't seen behind the scenes of say a recording studio, a television station, a radio station. For you to actually see what goes on in places like this, because I was very fascinated by it when I first got involved. So I hope you enjoyed it. Take care. Coming up in the next series of the Museum of Pop Culture, join us for the incredible life and career of Night Rider himself, David Hasselhoff. (upbeat music) From his early TV career to the creation of the biggest show in the world, Baywatch, and most amazing level, was he personally responsible for the fall of the Berlin Wall. (upbeat music) Thank you for listening to the second series of a podcast that we were worried was going to be too niche. And we are surprised and delighted at how many of you have listened and how many lovely messages we've had. In our best hopes, we plan to carry this on. One day we hope to go at all the classic pop culture of the '90s when we followed Dennis, the menistend, take that in founding a fan club. Well, after a surprisingly successful basically two and a half weeks, we're taking the bull by the horns. But by Saturday's episode, you will be able to join the Museum of Pop Culture fan club. Members of the fan club will get all episodes ad-free to bonus episodes a month, exclusive fan club only, Museum of Pop Culture live show that's not available to general public. Plus, and this is a picky, we haven't designed it yet, but we are coming up with our own version of the Museum of Pop Culture, Blue Peter Badge. (upbeat music) Museum of Pop Culture is a keep it light media production. Thank you for research to Laura L. Wood, Tabitha Hanson, Op. 2 of it, and Emily Pickthall. Additional editing was by Will Fitzpatrick, Graphic Design by John Gregory, and Music by Pickle and Button. (upbeat music)