The history and legacy of Black family reunions in the South

This is DoSouth on WUNC. I'm Leonita Inge. Black families take family reunions seriously. A report from the University of Michigan shows nearly half of all black travel is for a reunion. Black families do it differently and that we are so involved in family reunions and they mean so much to us and it all comes out of that trauma from slavery of losing our families. We talk black family reunions with Ernie Suggs of the Atlanta Journal Constitution and we talk eating oysters with veteran food writer Kathleen Hervis. I always say that being a food writer in North Carolina is like being at play in the fields of the Lord. I mean you were just surrounded by stories. Black family reunions good food and an update on FEMA cuts in the face of storms and flooding on DoSouth. The news is next. From the American tobacco historic district in downtown Durham this is DoSouth on WUNC I'm Jeff Tebering. We hear a lot about federal funding cuts these days because well there are a lot of them but it can be hard to understand the impact of these large scale changes in our local communities. Reporter Heidi Perez Moreno is with the border belt independent and is following how federal cuts are impacting Columbus and Robinson counties and we're going to be talking about projects that you'll hear us refer to in the next few minutes as brick projects or brick funding. This is an acronym for building resilient infrastructure and communities. Heidi Perez Moreno welcome to DoSouth. Thank you for having me. Thank you for being here. A quick geography reminder lesson Columbus and Robinson these counties are south of the triangle along the South Carolina border. Columbus is one county inland from the coast. Heidi please remind us why is this area so prone to flooding? Yes so in the south eastern area much like other parts of the coastal plains area but specifically in the southeastern region that border South Carolina you have a lot of low-lying areas. You have a lot of areas that don't really have the elevation that can support heavy rainfall, hurricane damage and you've had repeated hurricanes in specifically the last decade with that have come in with great intensity and sort of disrupted the areas especially as they try to rebuild, revitalize their areas, bring in tourism, bring in growth. It's also regarded as sort of swamp area and so historically they have already been prone to heavy rainfall, to flooding. There are specifically areas that have been avoided because the town already knows this is going to be a spot where there's going to be a lot of flooding and you know when I've had a conversation with certain town officials and I've asked them you know have you looked into restoration projects, have you looked into mitigation projects and funding is already so up in the air especially now and so you know a lot of these towns sort of brace themselves whenever floods come in or rain far hurricanes come in. And I would also point out I think just for memory so to the east you've got the Atlantic, you've got an ocean you're in this low-lying area not a lot of elevation and then in say a place like Lumberton County City of Robinson you have rivers that are flowing through and rivers that are coming from the west so if the rivers are high they can dump an inordinate. It's like this really nasty trifecta of sorts and these lead to a lot of flooding events. So tell us Heidi how much money was cut from federal appropriations that was to be appropriated to Columbus and Robinson counties and what kind of projects lost money. So across the state it was about a $200 million figure so these cuts were announced in April and the thing to know about a lot of these projects is that they had already either been in the planning phases for a few years they had already you know towns it already been very hopeful about the chance to sort of have a more geographically a more equitable area where certain areas are and hits so severely in the border belt area it's you have several counties a towns I should say Roland, Pembroke, Taber City, Robinson the county seat then you have Lumberton, Fairmont, Whiteville you know a lot of these areas the total can look up to it's close to $11 million dollars. 11 million in this particular border belt region. Yes yes the most expensive projects you'd see is the stream restoration project in Whiteville called the Molly's Branch stream stream restoration project that is sort of a $3.6 million figure and the town had already been planning you know with the local government already and sort of planning designing and so these cuts similar to a lot of towns in the region but also across the state have really come as surprised because a lot of them if they haven't already been in the planning phases they've been underway and so you know the town has already been preparing around these around these plans so you have a project in Whiteville to sort of the stream restoration project so part of this project was already underway in terms of there is a specific stream that comes through the area and you have essentially a lot of houses that you know after the effects of Hurricane Matthew Florence and just repeated rainfall you know a lot of these areas swell very swell and so it's very dangerous for the people living there the you know you have to evacuate right there's a lot of sort of mitigation already in sort of measures you have to take if you live in these areas and so in starting the stream restoration project which was approved a few years ago they had already sort of bought out some of the houses moved people out and so this is already an empty area so it can remain like this right now if you go to the specific area you'll just see sort of empty an empty stream which already you know it makes it so it's not as immediately dangerous for people in the area especially if you live along the stream so the whole the whole goal of the project it was to sort of you know empty out the space extend the stream so that more water can come in and it won't be as hazardous to the rest of the area Reporter Heidi Perez Moreno is with the border belt independent she's here with us on do south talking about federal budget cuts specifically brick funding comes from FEMA and what this means for some projects that were underway in Robinson and Columbus counties so I suppose Heidi let's go next level on this Molly's branch stream restoration you say it's a project that was underway it's a project that has now lost almost 3.7 million dollars what happens is it is it just over does the state potentially kick in some money here are there other ways for this to continue do we do we even know it's a bit and clear at the moment a lot of these cuts have also come as a surprise to a lot of local areas especially on the state level too a lot of weather related challenges and flood mitigation projects and sort of ways to you know brace yourself and really prepare forced or forced storm damage is already something that is very hard to attain and so these FEMA projects definitely came in as sort of a lifeline especially a lot of projects happening now in local areas a lot of the financial and sort of aftermath support and resources town officials have said just generally speaking have been focused on Western North Carolina especially due to the aftermath of Hurricane Helene which is absolutely understandable but it also you know it's you know flood mitigation hurricane relief this is something that other areas in North Carolina are very vulnerable too so you know you have these sort of ways that you know town officials are really just trying to brace themselves so I want to get a sense from you of the reaction the fallout the aftermath if there is something to speak of here reminder to listeners we've got ten member we have 14 members in the U.S. House ten Republicans who are in the majority party this area is served by a Republican in Congress we also have a Democratic state attorney general Jeff Jackson he and I think I want to focus on him here for a moment file the lawsuit in conjunction with about 20 other AGs pertaining to some of these budget cuts broad brushstroke here but what is Jeff Jackson's argument and where does this lawsuit stand what he's what he's arguing is that these cuts for FEMA were already promised and it's unconstitutional to remove set of funding and so he's been visiting local areas to kind of assess the damage assess what they need assess like where support can be what what can be done but he is definitely an active member in this in this lawsuit. Hattie Perez, Marano of the Board of Health independent. I hear with us for just a couple more minutes on do self. What have members of the North Carolina congressional delegation said if anything of note on this? Are they pushing back? Are they calling for restored brick funding or some other way to push these projects across the finish line? So there have been a few representative senators who have signed onto this lawsuit. Republican Senator Tom Tillis, Republican Representative Chuck Edwards, Democratic Representative Don Davis, Democratic Representative Alma Adams from North Carolina have signed onto this lawsuit. A few local representatives have not were not represented in this in this in this letter specifically on the lawsuit or have like Republican representative David Rouser, Mark Harris, Republican Senator Ted Bud did not. And so it's kind of it's sort of in mixed. There is clear support especially from the state level. But also on the local scale there is definitely support toward continuing these projects, especially on the local town level. And this fracture among the North Carolina congressional delegation that you mentioned Heidi Marcaris and David Rouser who have not signed onto this lawsuit. They are the two representatives who are serving this area in the U.S. House of Representatives. Heidi Perez-Marino is a reporter at the border belt independent and you can read more of her reporting at borderbelt.org. Heidi, thank you for joining us here today on Doo South. Thank you so much for having me. Dilla Head on Doo South this hour. Food writer Kathleen Purvis stops by to help us explore the world of oysters right here in the Tarheal State. Here in North Carolina our coastal waters are warming. The estuaries where oysters are raised both the wild ones and the far end ones those waters are getting warmer as we go along. And we're still trying to figure out what the effect of that is going to be. Though immediately next Leonita Inge speaks with Ernie Suggs reporter with the Atlanta Journal Constitution about Black family reunions. Everybody has family reunions but it's such a big deal in the Black community and it comes from the fact that we were separated as enslaved people and we spent so much time looking for our families. Leonita's conversation with Ernie Suggs about his story what remains the power of Black family reunions ahead on Doo South. I'm Jeff Tiberi. This is listener supported WNC. You're listening to Doo South on WNC. I'm Leonita Inge. I tried my best not to make this summer's family reunion in Asheville, North Carolina. My parents have passed. My siblings wouldn't be there and my children couldn't make it either. I guess that's why I had to be there. I need it some love. So welcome everybody. We are so excited to see everybody here at the Roman reunion. That's right. Come on let's clap it up. It's always good to be in the midst of family because you know if anybody has got your back you can family got your back. On this warm July night the Roland family reunion dressed in casual white attire after the welcome and blessing of the food it was time to eat. Look at the smell of chicken. Look at the fried chicken. How you doing? You doing? How you doing? How you doing? How you doing? How you doing? Coming out hot. Oh yeah. Hi, hey, guys. Just going down the line. Rolling in the house. The tradition of the Black Family Reunion reaches back to when our people were enslaved in this country and often torn apart. Many say the search continues today. This year's Roland Family Reunion was organized late. Almost didn't happen. The bulk of the Roland family lives in and around Asheville devastated last year by flooding from Hurricane Helene. The bottom of the family reunion noticed red? No storm can stop us. We are rolling strong. Cousins Richard and Stephanie Hent says family saved family. My parents had to come live with us for 17 days. They didn't have water, power, Uncle Randy. Let us borrow his generator because my mom has an oxygen concentrated or so. He had power and he kept her alive. Yeah. 24/7 we ran that generator. And everybody's fine. I know. I know you're emotional about that. That's a big deal. Yeah. My family traveled from Michigan, Pennsylvania, Virginia, South Carolina to hug on each other in Asheville. In fact, it is estimated that nearly half of all travel by African Americans is related to family reunions. Ernie Suggs is a reporter covering race and culture for the Atlanta journal Constitution. His recent article is what remains the power of black family reunions, Ernie, good to have you on do south. Oh, thank you very much. It's such a pleasure to be here since I'm a native North Carolinian. So it's great to be home. Oh, yes. So you would love my family reunion. Yeah. What happened? It sounds great. Well, I must begin this conversation by admitting how much I enjoy attending family reunions. And guess what? It doesn't have to be my family reunion. It could be any family, any family that opens their arms and says, "Oh, come on, bye." And you know, I was especially intrigued by your story and the history behind why black families like mine have family reunions. So let's play a piece of audio from the Instagram version of your story. All right. It says, Mr. Mrs. Johnny Dillard of Lynchburg, Virginia, wish to find their nine children. Molly Daniel John Milley, Sami Melinda, Jimmy, Monsey, and Margaret, all colored. Who, when last heard of, was sold off by Negro traders. This was in the Atlanta Journal Constitution in 1917. Right above this ad is a woman who had placed an ad saying, "I've lost my umbrella." Wow. Would you read from your article in the Atlanta Journal Constitution to continue that? They cry for their stolen children appear between a notice about a misplaced umbrella and another about a missing silk jacket, a haunting reminder of how black lives were once valued less than others lost belongings. Of the thousands of such ads, only about 2% resulted in reunions, but the pursuit of reconnection became a cherished feature of black American life and birthed one of its most sacred cultural rituals, the family reunion. You've looked at research from the Pew Research Center and other places. What does it say about the importance of family reunions for black families specifically? Well, it basically says that black families do it differently and more extensively than any other group in the country. And that includes white Americans, that includes Hispanic Americans, Asian Americans. The black family reunion is a very, very, and I did not know this until I started doing research and writing the story, is a very, very unique institution amongst black families and black cultures because of where it came from. As you know, as your listeners perhaps know, that a lot of our traditions in the black culture, whether it's neighborhoods we live in, the music we listen to, the colleges that we go to, all come out of some sort of trauma, which in that trauma is slavery. And the black family reunion is basically, you know, because the black family, if we really, really think about it and technically, and I'm sure some historians will probably challenge me on this, but the black family did not really exist until the emancipation and proclamation. Prior to that between 1619 and 1865, we were basically property and the concept of a black family did not exist because we could be separated and moved and sold just like cattle or pigs or hogs or other property. So not until after that we were no longer enslaved when we could put ads in the newspaper and actually search for our loved ones without getting in trouble. Well, I mean, search, not necessarily without getting in trouble, but you know, the fact that we were free to slaves, freed from slavery did not mean that we were all as one unit exiting slavery because prior to that, our mothers and daughters and husbands and wives were being sold to different plantations. So you may be free, but you don't know where your wife and children are. So that's kind of what the point of those ads were. Well, I know today, you also wrote in your article about an estimate that came out of the University of Michigan that 70% of non-business travel by African Americans is related to family reunions. Wow. Yeah, again, and that kind of goes into the whole thing that we do it differently and we take this thing very seriously that most of the travel that we do is as Americans is related to family and family reunions. reunions. So you did a lot of research for this piece. You know, has this topic been on your mind for a while? Why? Tell me about your family. The topic has been on my mind for a while actually. Atlanta is what you might call a hub. You know, we had the biggest airport in the country, but it's also a hub for family reunions. So Fulton County, the city of Atlanta, the Cap County, each of these counties and cities have offices specifically dedicated to helping families plan their family reunions, which is probably not uncommon in other cities. But so, so this area is always where a lot of people have their reunions. So it could have been a story about, hey, Atlanta has a lot of family reunions, but as I started reporting and as things got deeper and I met these four families, each of whom had four very distinct stories to tell, it became a bigger story that gets deeper into the history. And you know, I like to write in terms of what I'm, when I'm reporting, I like to dig deeper than just kind of the surface. Oh, here's a family reunion. Here's a family who's getting together, but you know, why they're getting together and at what cost they're getting together. You didn't tell me about your family. Have you had a reunion lately? You know, it's funny because my cousin Jackie who still isn't Brooklyn, you know, I was born in Brooklyn, but I was raised in Rocky Mountain North Carolina. My cousin Jackie called me today out of the blue and said, hey, we're having a family reunion next July. You know, and we want you to be on a planning committee. It's going to be in South Carolina. So in next July, the York side of my family, which is my father's side of the family, is going to have a family reunion along a weighted reunion. So I'm looking forward to it. Again, I literally just found out about an hour ago, but I'm looking forward to it because you know, we have a really, you know, we all grew up together in New York City with our grandma Bill, you know, grandma was named Willie May, but everybody called her Bill. So, you know, we're the children of Bill and we're looking forward to that great reunion in Columbia, South Carolina. And because you're a journalist, I'm a journalist. Don't they always put us on the planning committees? Yeah, exactly. I got to do all the research. I'm going to, you know, I've already set up a Facebook page and I've been working. I'm already working. Wow. So tell me about some of the families you interviewed. Let's start with the Dorsey family. Yeah. The Dorsey family is in a very interesting family there in Fayetteville, Georgia. And their family is a very, very longstanding family, black family in that area. And they, after the emancipation, the patriarch of the family started a benevolent society. For those of you in North Carolina know, it's similar to what North Carolina Mutuals doing. This is a, this is a benevolent society here in Georgia and Fayetteville, where they took care of you when you're sick and they buried you when you died. So I had a chance to kind of go to their family burial plot, the cemetery that they purchased in like 1888 to bury the former slaves who were not given the dignity of a proper burial even in death. And they did that. So they have this black cemetery in Fayetteville where, you know, probably about 800 former slaves are buried, including 100 members of their family, which they still maintain. They still keep up. And they still carry their family legacy. And they're having their reunion later in the fall. So they were amazing family. Just talked about the legacy and the importance of preserving culture and preserving dignity that they built more than a hundred years ago through this benevolent society. And I must say the photographs that accompany your writing in this story are beautiful. So we get to actually see that cemetery. Yeah, it's great. And it's kind of interesting because as I wrote in the story, it is a segregated cemetery. It's now the city cemetery, but there's a little road. And it's not intentional now, I believe. But there's a little road that actually separated the main quote unquote main part of cemetery, which is from the black cemetery. There's only one, even today, there's only one black person who's buried in the white section. And she was the maid of a, you know, a very, I think she was the maid of market Mitchell or something like that. Who's buried there. And there's no white people in the black side. So it's only one kind of integration, integration is in the whole cemetery. Well, I'd like to talk more about the work of reunion organizers, you know, are they also usually, I guess, in your reporting, the same people who are the family historians and just really hold the family trees because that's some great history you just spoke about. Yeah, I mean, in my research, that, you know, that's that person or those persons of the key, because one of the things I've learned is that families are fearful that as older people die out, then younger people are not going to care for the traditions. One of the families that I talked to, they had a reunion last year and the organizers of this year's reunion did not go last year because he was tending to his father who was sick, who died subsequently. So this year's reunion was very special because his matriarch of the family had died. But yeah, you have these people in the family who are the, the guardians of the legacy, who keep all the papers, who keep all the records, who put together the family trees, who just started using ancestry.com. Those are the people who are really, really dedicated. And a lot of it has to also do with your own person motivations, where the reunion is going to be held, who's in charge. You know, I've gotten a lot, a lot of letters since this story ran about families who are trying to reestablish a family reunion or who've one family from North Carolina as a matter of fact, who's had a family reunion for 93 years. So you have people in these families who are really, really dedicated to keeping the legacy alive. But I think it's very important for all families to understand that there has to be people in the family who are willing to keep these traditions alive. Otherwise, they're going to pass you know, fall out. It disappear. Well, I'm with, yeah, I'm with Ernie Suggs, a reporter covering race and culture for the Atlanta Journal Constitution. And we're dissecting black family reunions. Ernie, one thing that also comes up in discussions is how often to have family reunions. I know we've debated in my family if it should be every year, every other year. And even if a lot of people can't come, they decided every year because so many of our elders pass away every year. So that's why we have ours every year, not every other year, even though I think we do need a couple of years of planning. Well, yeah, that's a great point. I mean, the cloud Travis failing, for example, they've had their reunion since 1970 every year, even during the pandemic, they had it virtually a couple years. And they've often had this debate as to whether or not they're going to switch to every other year or every two years or every three years. But they always come back to the conclusion that if we decide that we're not going to have a reunion for one year, then we're going to lose this reunion. So they have it every year at a different place. This year was in Atlanta. I forgot where they said they're planning it next year, but they always have it because they feel that it's very, very important to continue having it for fear of losing it. I've seen families who have, you know, have family unions once every five years or once every 10 years or God forbid, once, you know, there's a funeral or, you know, some death in a family. So I think it's important that, you know, you at least try to have these every year. You ask about my family, you know, we haven't, I can't remember the last family reunion we've had. That side of my family, all of my fathers, my grandmother's pass away, all of my father's siblings, except two, my son, Flora and my aunt Trish are still alive. So I think it's very, very important for us as a younger generation to kind of get together and try to be meaningful and purposeful in celebrating our family. I know the Roland family reunion that I attend every year. That's on my mother's side, but the inches is such a humongous, large family it used to be. My dad was the baby of 13. So you know, so many, my, all of his siblings are gone. I'm the baby in many ways. And we have not had a family reunion because sadly we have a big funeral almost every year. And that's almost, I guess we replaced the family reunion with the funeral. That's what's been happening. Well, I want to ask you about, did we talk about the Thornton family reunion? You know, really like you said, younger folks, and I'm still considered young because I'm the baby, one of the babies of the baby. So I guess it's up to me. And I know that's a concern for a lot of families. Yeah, the Thornton family that that's one of the family reunions. I actually had a chance to go to on a 10 that before the story came out. And again, this is the family of which one of the matriarchs passed away between the last two reunions. So it was very important for them to get together and kind of relive their their family legacy and have a tremendous rich family legacy down in Southwest Georgia where they own the large, the oldest black run business in Albany, Georgia, a barber shop, but they also even years before that own acres upon acres of farmland, which is very unusual for black families in that time. And they still own this farmland. So they have a really, really rich legacy of family. And you know, everybody looks alike. Everybody's still laughing. They're everyone, you know, all the women carried Dorsi, I mean, Thornton in their names. So they have a really, really strong tradition. They've had their reunions every year. But again, they are still looking for younger people to kind of move and carry this forward. One of the interesting things about that reunion is that out of all the people who were there, there are only three people and they were in their 20s, but they were only three people younger than 30 at the whole reunion. So that that's kind of scary. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That tells you something about where the family is going. We hope young folks listening to this, this conversation. So we need them to step up. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And that's what they were all talking about. They need to young people to step up because as that death between the last two or union said or revealed is that the older people are not going to be there forever. Do you find that most black family reunions in America are in the South because what most African Americans live here. I know of a family in California who makes their way to North Carolina like every other year because they trace their roots back here, but I guess how important is it for these family reunions to go back to their roots? Which would be the South? - Yeah, I mean, you know, one of the things I talk about in my story is the Great Migration and how the Great Migration did, as important as it was to get black people out of the South to give them job opportunities in the North and the Midwest, it did do a lot of damage to the nuclear family. So you had all these families spread out. When I talk about the cloud Travis family, one of the reasons that they wanted to start a family reunion in 1970 was to reconnect the family that had been broken up by the Great Migration. So yeah, so, you know, the Great Migration, most of the families came from the South. So North Carolina, my family, for example, came from North and South Carolina and moved up to New York in the 1950s and 60s. So you have these families who are naturally based in the South. So I would think I don't have the data or the numbers, but I would imagine that most of these reunions sent around reconnecting those southern roots that we've always been tied to because that's where most black people come from, the South. And we left and came back. You know, and I remember growing up in New York City, we always thought about going down South. You know, and that was the thing, you know, I'm going down South for the summer. And that meant I was going to North Carolina. So I think people are still kind of going down South. - And quickly before we have to go, Ernie, I mean, this was a deep dive into black family reunions. What did you learn? Did you learn anything? - You know, I always learned something and I always try to teach something, not to sound presumptuous, but I present, you know, presumptuous, but I always try to teach something in my writing to try to be more than just surface. But I learned a lot about black families that I didn't know. I did not know, as I was starting to report this story, is that black families do it differently and that we are so involved in family reunions and they mean so much to us. And it's all comes out of that trauma from slavery of losing our families and trying to spend, you know, that ad that you read was published in my newspaper in 1917. That's 52 years after the Emancipation Proclamation. So 52 years after the Emancipation Proclamation, the Dilert family is still mourning and in pain because they lost their nine children during slavery. So that right there tells you how important this is. - Well, Ernie Suggs is a reporter covering race and culture for the Atlanta Journal Constitution. Thank you so much for joining me today and good luck with your family reunion next summer. - Thank you, it's gonna be fantastic. - Mm-hmm, I'm Leonita Inge and this is Do South on WUNC. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Welcome back, this is Do South on listener supported WNC. I'm Jeff Tiberi. - And I'm Leonita Inge. Jeff, are you an oyster lover? - I am half shell, char broiled, fried, maybe an oyster shooter and how about you? - Oyster shooter. - Uh-huh. - Oh yes, you know, any witch away I can eat oysters all year round. - All year round. - All right, well there's been a lot of discussion over the years about that very question. - Can you eat oysters all year round? - Yes. - No. - I don't know, can you? - Stay safe, lots of people swear by this rule. Only eat raw oysters in months that end in R. - You know September, October, November, December. - The old saying only eat oysters in months with an R isn't just foodie folklore. Its advice it dates back at least 4,000 years. - 4,000 years, is it good advice though? - We're gonna pursue that question and others with food writer Kathleen Purvis who recently wrote a piece in the assembly called "Are You Ready to Eat Oysters All Year Long?" The story was published in partnership with the food section. - Well Kathleen joins us from her home in Belmont outside of Charlotte. Kathleen, welcome to do south. - Yeah well thank you for having me. It's an honor and a privilege. - Well before we check open those oysters, I just wanna say I like what you've written in your Instagram description. You write Charlotte and Southern food writer and generally hungry person. Oh my, that's me. Oh what is like being a food writer, especially focusing on the south? - You know what, I always say that being a food writer in North Carolina is like being at play in the fields of the Lord. I've been covering food here for over 30 years. I was the food editor of the Charlotte Observer until 2019 and now I write for all kinds of publications. Our state, the assembly, Charlotte magazine. And honestly I never run out of story ideas. I keep thinking I will and then something else presents itself. So it's a delight to cover food here. - All right well you've spent some time eating and enjoying and writing about oysters. Let's get to the, I guess the bottom of this history behind the rule of apparently not eating them in May, June, July or August, the struck me as blasphemy, but tell us where this rule comes from. - You know that was an old rule that started long ago before we had regular refrigeration. Before we had efficient ways to move seafood which does tend to deteriorate very quickly if it's not kept cold. And so people came to this idea that you didn't eat oysters in the summertime, the months without an R in them. Or how they always said it. The other reason for that wasn't just keeping the food safe. It was also because oysters naturally in the wild tend to reproduce in the summertime, which means that they're busy putting their energy into creating little baby oysters. And so they get kind of mealy, they get a little gross and then by late summer when they've kind of worn themselves out reproducing, then they become very small. So oysters were considered not at their best in the summertime and also potentially more dangerous to eat because it was harder to keep them cold. And so that's where this idea came from. And it's now a very outdated idea. - Is it really outdated? I wondered how pervasive, is it still in North Carolina and beyond for example? I mean, it's a lot hotter where I was born on the Gulf Coast in Mobile, Alabama, you know, but maybe not in North Carolina. - Oh, it's a great oyster area. - Oh, I know. - Yeah, Appalachia, Colabay, the Gulf of Mexico, all of that. Yeah. One of the things that has changed this is the rise in farmed oysters. Oysters are now, you can still get oysters in the wild, but most of the oysters we would encounter in a restaurant tend to be farmed. And farming oysters is a whole different ball game and it does change our relationship to oysters in the summertime because first of all, they don't reproduce the same way. They can breed oysters that are being farmed so that they have, they don't reproduce naturally. And that sounds like kind of a horrible idea, but in this case, that means they don't wear them sounds out reproducing. It also means that they're being raised in water that can be inspected regularly, which means that we have a less of a risk of pathogens that might grow if the oyster gets too warm. And we also have pretty strict rules on how oysters are harvested when they're farmed. How long they can go before they have to refrigerated, before they have to be chilled. And there's, there are government regulations on these things and that means that the safety of the batch of oysters you might have can be tracked. Just like you can track the safety of a steak that you know, find out where that steak came from, when it was harvested from the cow, all of those things are a part of the information available to us. At least available to the restaurants that are serving to us. - Sorry to cut you off. What we should note that you are not a food inspection, safety person, you're a journalist like we are, there are some risks that come with ingesting raw food. I like to set them aside if I've got, you know, a dozen oysters on the half shell in front of me, but we should acknowledge that. Kathleen, let me build on something you were just saying and ask you this. You're talking about harvesting the farmed oysters. There of course is a litany of factors as we think about the changing climates. What are the new world orders or regulations or red flags as we think about concerns that either you have, you've learned about or some of the issues with when not to eat oysters right now, presently. - Absolutely, thanks for bringing that up. And yeah, I always say that a food writer, you have to be a generalist. I'm not a scientist myself, but I have to be able to speak science and I have to know good sources who can keep me on point when I'm looking for stories, especially about food safety. 'Cause we always say about food writing, it is the only beat that can actually kill you. - Oh my goodness. Never wanna think about it that way. - Yeah, well, you have your wrists. So I have to make sure that I know who the experts are and can double check information. So you were asking about, I'm sorry, repeat your question on what are the problems with oysters now? - We were talking about this old wives tale, if you will, 4,000 years, don't eat oysters in months that don't end in our art. That's been a little bit debunk. But what are the concerns, are red flags, or areas? What are the guardrails, so to speak, with oysters right now? Absolutely. Okay. So, there's a common pathogen that is a problem in all oysters. Pretty much anywhere oysters are raised. It is called vibrio-vlinificus. And vibrio-can is a terrible, terrible pathogen. It can grow very quickly if oysters are not kept properly. The other big issue that we're having right now, and the jury still out on what the final effect will be, but everybody knows here in North Carolina, our coastal waters are warming. The estuaries, where oysters are raised, both the wild ones and the farmed ones, those waters are getting warmer as we go along. It has affected how oysters grow. They can grow more slowly. They get fewer nutrients when the water is too warm. But again, we've been keeping records on water temperature since the 1880s. We do know that the water temperature is rising, but it does go up and down. There are always fluctuations in temperature. There are fluctuations in rain and water coming out from the inland rivers into the estuaries and into the coast. Those things can change the salinity, the saltiness of the water, which makes a difference in where oysters are raised as well. So all of those things are playing with the oysters and their quality around us. And North Carolina is really focused hard on doing a lot of research in this. We've got great marine biology at UNC Wilmington. We've got sea watch, sea grant. We've got all kinds of programs that are really focusing on trying to figure out what this means. North Carolina is trying to dub itself the Napa Valley of oysters because they have an NC oyster trail now. And they're, it behooves the state to do all of this research. Well, Kathleen Purface is a food writer based in Charlotte, the Charlotte region. She's the author of several books then was the food editor at the Charlotte Observer for many years. I'd like to know how are oysters typically caught and farmed in North Carolina? You know, are there fresh water oysters here? That doesn't even exist. Okay. No, I don't think so. So where are oysters come from or estuaries, which tend to be briny? There were the freshwater meats, the saltwater. And you want them to have that brine. Not only is it healthy for the oyster, but it also makes a better tasting oyster. As far as now with farming, there's a couple of different methods for farming oysters. You could have these sort of long stretches of boxy cages that are turned every day. So the oysters kind of go from the top to the bottom. You also have these column cages that are real tall and they're like stacks and stacks of cages and they lift them in and out of the estuaries and dump out everything that's in them. Wild oysters, honestly, I haven't seen as much of that. I tend to, in my reporting, I've been around several oyster farming operations. I'm getting pretty familiar with what that looks like. Not so much with the wild. I mean, I think the wild oysters are still tongued like they were in the old days. But the oyster men who go out into the flats and tong oysters are becoming a rare sight. Kathleen, I've got to ask you, this is off script, but in terms of the level of brine, showing your true oyster colors here, how briny do you like your oysters? I like a salty oyster. I have to tell you, in reporting this story, I found a restaurant here in Charlotte at actually two locations, one's called sea level and the other is called the Waterman. The owner, Paul Manley, actually works with one specific farm out in the area called down east in sea level, North Carolina. The family's called Morris Family Farms. And they do a specific oyster for him that's called the sea level salts. And they're wonderful. They've got that saltiness that just makes my mouth sing when I eat it. I was at an oyster farm a few years ago out in the Pamlico where the water was a lot fresher. And I have to say the oysters were disappointing because they didn't have that saltiness. That they kind of, to me, they need that for their natural flavor. You talked to Martin Posey at UNC Wilmington about wild oysters. What did Dr. Posey have to say? Well, Dr. Posey was talking about the need for salinity in oysters. And I think we were also talking a lot with him, may not have gotten into this in the story. But, you know, we've got the Chesapeake Bay just north of us. And there's a big difference between the Chesapeake Bay and North Carolina's estuaries like the Pamlico Sound because the Chesapeake is much, much larger, much deeper. And it has a very different area of our level of salinity than you would find in oysters here in North Carolina. But he has also been really working a lot with this idea of the long term warming of the coastal waters. You see it in cycles and they're understanding that in the Cape Fear, you're going to see averages are trending, but it's not always going to be the same every year. So they're also kind of constantly evaluating how is this helping or working or hurting oysters. Just like rainfall. It gets complicated. A lot of the things. You know, yeah. You think of rain and the storms and, you know, that has to happen. And as I was saying, one of the things that happens with warmer water, with the natural, the wild oysters is that they tend to start reproducing later in the season. And unfortunately, that means they start running into storm season here. You know, hurricanes are another thing that really, really mess up our oyster industry here in North Carolina because it does so much destruction and can just destroy in, you know, areas of oysters and destroy the equipment they have to use the boats. You know, these guys are our local people who work with with harvesting wild seafood in North Carolina. Do not have an easy job of it. Kathleen Purvis, food writer, based in Charlotte is with us here for a couple more moments on Dew South. Kathleen, let me pull on that thread. This might be a throwback. I don't know if you can answer this or not, but as we think about the industry changing over time, as we think about warming waters and climate change and many of the factors you're discussing here, can you quantify or qualify for us how the oyster industry or population in the estuaries and off the coasts of North Carolina, off the coast in North Carolina has changed over times or would have denoted them? Oh goodness, yes. You know, I was on another story recently for our state magazine and I was out in Atlantic Sea level in Sea Rilett, which are all kind of clustered together just east of both North Carolina. And that used to be an area where the main driver of the economy were seafood plants, processing plants for both fish and for shellfish. Those jobs are gone. Those plants are gone. It's really hard to find a processing plant now in those in that area and once upon a time, that's how everybody made their living, which means that they're seeing their populations drop pretty steeply. Atlantic, for instance, would have had 20, 30 years ago, the town of Atlantic might have had 1500, 2000 people as its regular population. Now it's down to 500. I mean, young people leave the area. So it's, I love the farming industry for seafood because it does give a stable way to keep these families on the water doing what their ancestors have done for generations, doing a job that means so much to them. You see the same thing in the fishing industry over there too, some of the regulations are really, really hard on these guys and they're just trying to keep a way of life going. You know, Kathleen, before we go, we were talking about definitely eating oysters. So thinking about what you just said, is there a contamination problem we should be concerned with? Well, vibrio. Vibrio, the nebipus, as I mentioned, luckily it's- The sprying, because frying oysters help kill anything because that's how I eat it. Yes it does. This is one of the things where heat will kill the pathogen. However, one thing I'll mention is that online you'll see people claiming, oh, I put lemon juice or I put horseradish on my oysters and that'll kill any pathogens. No, it doesn't. Only heat will kill a pathogen. You just don't see it here as often as you did. And part of that is because we know how to expect for it now and we know how to handle the seafood when it comes out of the water. But it is something you need to, you know, like eating a rare hamburger, you know. You gotta eat at your own risk on that one and understand what you're getting yourself into. If you were feeding a small child or an older person with a compromised immune system, I'm not sure that I would risk it. But younger, healthier, you know, you're probably likely to be a little bit, you're not going to be hurt as badly by something like that. But it's up to you. It's your choice. Yeah, go for it. Food writer, Kathleen, Purvis' story and the assembly is called, are you ready to eat oysters all year long? The story was published in partnership with the Food Section. Kathleen, thank you for joining us here on DoSelf. It was real pleasure. I'm Jeff Tiberi. And I'm Leo Nita Inge. You've been listening to Do South on WUNC.