The Hillbilly Scientist

From the southeastern corner of western North Carolina. This is Polklor I'm your host James Hurnisham Before I introduce this episode's guest another Democrat seeking the western North Carolina's seat in the US House of Representatives I think I need to provide some context about this particular moment in American political history It's a clip from the speech on the floor of the US Senate by North Carolina's Tom Tillis a Republican who isn't at all happy with the administration. He helped elect and some of the people he helped put in cabinet He's talking about the idea of invading Greenland Which is something that Deputy White House chief of staff Stephen Miller one of President Donald Trump's closest advisors would very much like to see happen And I would define you to find any credible General with a star on a shoulder who would say that it is because they understand that the NATO Alliance is is what has kept this nation largely or this kind world largely safe for over 75 years The flip side could be that Mr. Miller or somebody else had hey, this would be cool Let's take over Greenland. It'll be like a big aircraft carrier. Well, that's stupid - and I'm sick of stupid I won't good advice for this president because I want this president to have a good legacy and This nonsense on what's going on with Greenland is a distraction from the good work he's doing and the amateurs who said it was a good idea should lose their jobs Keep that line. I'm sick of stupid in mind as you listen to my guest a Cell biologist at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill who is successfully turned basic research into commercially valuable therapeutic tools to fight cancer Like the outgoing senator Paul Maddox is also more than a little frustrated with a lack of intelligence and evidence in Washington these days He's one of a historic number of scientists running for office this year, which should tell you something To me the Maddox campaign whether it's successful or not is local evidence of just how much trouble we're in Don't misunderstand me as someone with a biology degree myself. I love the idea of more scientists in public office But the story you're about to hear about how an accomplished cancer researcher came to the conclusion that he needs to be in Congress rather than his laboratory Is every bit is illuminating as anything you'll hear from Tom Tillis or any other politician or pundit who's fed up with the craziness that dominates the news these days What you won't hear in this interview is analysis of recent events We don't get into the death of innocent protesters at the hands of ICE agents or the abduction of the head of Venezuela's government Or the very real possibility that the United States is about to destroy NATO by invading the sovereign territory of one of our most reliable allies We even avoid any mention of the changes in the recommended vaccination schedules that will almost certainly lead to more unnecessary deaths Even though I'm sure Paul Maddox has an opinion or two on that one Instead we talk about more fundamental ideas. What do the people of Western North Carolina want from their politicians? Are we really ready to abandon respect for science and expertise and is it still possible to win an election by running on who you are instead of just which party you represent? We talked in saluda earlier this month Paul Maddox, welcome to Polklor. Thank you very much, James, and that's wonderful to be here in saluda and Polk County and I left Yancey County in the South Toe River this morning in a driving snow and And here I am in sunshine. Well, I think most of us in saluda find a little bit chilly this morning, but it's still not a bad day So begin by telling us a little bit about yourself Obviously, you're going to want to focus on your career as a cancer researcher, but let's go right back to the beginning I grew up in Ben Creek, which is in sort of one might say a suburb of Asheville and And I it was a two-lane highway and dairy farms bill more dairy and That's where I went to K through eight school. I'd graduate from Eka High School in 1991 and I never really intended to leave Western North Carolina to be truthful about it. I I never wanted to I always I always thought I would come back and make a living here and have a have raise a family here But life has a way of getting in the way and I went to university at UNC Chapel Hill and in my senior year I fell in love with research and particularly I fell in love with cell division and cell division is the you know as you might know the root cause of of all cancers not just breast cancer or a pancreatic cancer. It's the it's how all cancers function and so that problem cell division on one hand is very beautiful event And it's a magical thing that it happens every happens every time but correctly Except when it doesn't and when it doesn't that's what leads to problems and and so I I learned as a as a scientist as a PhD research scientist to Just to dig it problems and to never Never let go and to sometimes you have to face an adverse situation The negative results for instance and say well, how does that how can I make that positive right and so maybe I have to look at it from a different different perspective and and you know you get 24 hours to be upset about something but then you have to keep going because it's not gonna solve itself So so so I spent my career doing that and has taken me around North America and I've given talks around the world. I've taught in South America and in Europe and and even Asia, Japan and And so I've I've seen a lot I always wanted to come back here to Western North Carolina and this two things happened the Haleen happened and my mother and my brother and my stepfather live in Yancey County on the South Dakota River Highway 80 South and My mom's family my family has been in that region since before Yancey County was a county and and so the When Haleen happened I hadn't heard from them for for three days and I panicked and I called my cousin who my aunt lived across the river from my mom. Yeah, sorry You were at Chapel Hill. I was at Chapel Hill. Sorry. Yeah, my career is my career path I got my undergraduate degree at UNC. I got my PhD at UNC My wife and I then went to do what's called postdoctoral training at UC San Diego in a in a cancer institute there and then we were recruited to Montreal to a cancer institute There and we lived in Montreal for six years and then the opportunity came for us to move back to UNC and my mentor and PhD advisor was retiring and and they wanted to fill the fill the spot and I was always sort of the Next in line kind of kind of person and and so we were recruited back to UNC in the Department of Biology and 2013 so we've been there since 2013 and so you're in Chapel Hill when Haleen hits. That's right and I remember I was on the phone with my stepdad the morning Friday morning On their landline at 930. He called me. He says, you know bridges out powers out, but we're fine and Because the houses up elevated and and then I called him back at 10 and everything and the line was dead and So I thought now all right, we'll figure it out and then and I hadn't heard from him. I Loaded everything I could into my jeep and I Two generate one gasoline generator ten gallons of gas a solar generator can goods water all sorts of stuff into my jeep and I drove I Had a dead dead wrecking because all the roads were closed and took me seven hours Which would normally take three and a half hours and I went up around North Wilkesboro and Grandfather Mountain and and on places I shouldn't have been driving and And it scared me and I made it and I saw my brother. He was coming across the field and He said we went and made it another day and so I I said well you got an hour to load all your stuff and we're out of here And I dropped off. Here's the interesting. Well a really wonderful story actually I dropped off the generator and And all the supplies at the health center, which is about five miles down river from where my mom lives and I said, you know use all this stuff. I don't need back or whatever April of this year, I got a text. I've got your generator You can come pick it up and it was a neighbor and it had been used by four different families at different times to keep them going through the recovery and that just that just Gives me chills even to talk about it now that no well I'm very happy that it was used and it was put to wonderfully use But it's amazing that the person that that these people and that's that makes five different people That it went through thought enough to give it back to me and and that just sort of You know leaves an impression on a person. I knew I wanted to come back here like I said I never wanted to leave I'm in I'm trying to think about how to come back and And that really triggered me to really start to to say okay, we I got a really think heart on this and I'm not a politician but then politics is something that I And concerned about as a as a citizen of the United States and And I have you know a young family. Well not so young anymore 18 and almost 14 and I'm concerned for their future and When in the spring so a Little back information research grants are awarded and in the money for like a four four year period three year period two year period Whatever it is and the money comes annually and and it's and it comes at a certain point I was waiting for my money to come I filed my reports and everything to to continue the grant and And it didn't come and so I'm I started to get nervous and the departments like well How are we gonna pay for these people and I said well it'll come, you know, and they said I I call the the Division where the grants coming from and I say was this the tour in the NIA in I hate this one And these these were from the Department of Energy in particularly and I have one from NASA also and The so I call them and I say what's going on? They say it's just delayed just delayed and you check the website delayed delayed announcements delayed and And then in April again, I Called them and they said oh, well your program officer doesn't exist. They cut the entire program From which my grants were coming from from the Department of Energy So I had back pay that I owed the university because they have been filling like gap And then I on top of that I had a fire, you know, seven eight people and And these are people I care about and they're they're very smart and they're they're doing research and there's like postdoc researchers postdocs There was two postdocs one technician Three sort of undergrad technician types and then A couple of well three grad students who stayed on but they were teaching I couldn't pay them anymore So they had to teach to pay their stipends And which is hard to do to teach a full-time load and do research as a as a you know because that's their real job as research and that gutted me and I have been independently funded since 2003 I've been very successful. I've published over a hundred papers. I have I've transferred I've transferred some of our technology from academia to industry by filing patents and and that kind of thing and I feel like I've been a pretty darn good citizen in that world and I was I Didn't know what to do and I take it to the nature of your research and and the patents your kid came out of that It's not controversial stuff. This is a basic medical science. It's basic medical science and it's how cells divide and and if you can understand the more the better you understand how cells divide the better you can treat and understand cancer and and make people's lives better That's that's the bottom line and I wasn't like I was trying to you know develop a green algae that will make biofuels or or something or anything that was even remotely sort of controversial in my mind I mean if you asked 10 random people out here is cancer research important 10 people would probably say yes. I'm willing to put a lot of money on that and You did you ever get any answer out of the Department of Energy? I'm what happened? No So another words you kind of got fed up Well, I was yeah, well, I went into a brief depression. I drank a lot of great IPAs from Washington, okay, I know and then I was asking myself and and how how does something like this happen, right and how does Why can a decision like that be taken unilaterally and And I said well, I thought Congress was supposed to to ask questions like that like how does this make America a better place? How is this help the American people and? They didn't ask that question. I don't think they've asked any question of the executive branch and not to get all sort of Whatever granular about it, but that's oversight and they're just sort of You know, they're just sort of like whatever. Yeah, just fine. What do you do whatever you want? So that's really the answer to my first question or you know, why are you running for office? Why are you a scientist deciding to shift almost to the other end of the work life spectrum? To politics. There's a reason there's not too many scientists and engineers in government. You clearly saw the consequences of unexplainable decisions being made and so You wanted to write right the the card, but why choose NC 11 other than your historical family roots. Yeah A lot of people when I first sort of started talking to the party the Democratic party. I'm a I'm a left-leaning moderate. I'm I'm I'm by no means a You know a screaming burnt the world's burning down kind of person and And so I talked to them and I said well, how what can I do and I want to be I want to activate somehow and so I started doing things like going to my precinct meetings and And I'm I'm vice chair of my precinct, which is the UNC precinct Well, I was until I moved I'm on leave of absence right now from UNC to be clear about that and so the Oh, yeah, so I was they they said well you could run for state office You could do something like that. And I said well I I see the I don't I see the value in that but for the problem that I want to solve it has to be at the federal level and So I thought the my first thought was I'll run for Senate and I'll run against Tom Tillis and Which is even a bigger sling than then what I'm what I'm taking now and And and then I was advised, you know, well look Roy Cooper's probably gonna get in this thing and I said okay Well, I mean, I'm not gonna run against for Cooper that would that Roy Cooper's it would be a wonderful person to represent us and And so I thought oh My home district of Western or Carolina has a is in the midterm. I'll run for that and And so that's how You know, I I got to where I am now. I'm and it solves multiple problems for me Yeah, well one thing is you don't have to take on an incumbent say if you were running in Wake County or something closer to Chapel Hill You'd have to take on a democratic incumbent. Yes, and I so and that wouldn't help to solve my problem either, right? So to replace a Democrat with a Democrat is Is is you know, that's not going to fix the problem at heart the problem is is a is law the balance of power is There's no the scales are tipped right now Okay, so let's move on to then this the question of what separates you from the other folks who want this nomination In other words, what can you offer specifically the folks in places like Polk County which aren't that different from Yancey County, but or Much of the rest of the district. Well, what can you offer the folks of Polk County that see Richard Hutz Bethel or Jamie Ager? You don't think that they can Well, so yesterday we were in a in a forum the than there were four of us in Zelda Briar was there also and so I I would never in a million years say Anything bad about any of those other people because they're good people and And I think they are they each have strengths and I'm and I respect them. I do I However, believe humbly that my years of getting to the bottom of a problem looking at it from as every perspective possible analyzing how to attack that problem And using a tool to attack it and if that tool doesn't exist generating that tool and like Saying okay, what how do we actually do that and then do it? And that's how you move forward in read in science or in politics I believe my skill set is transferable if you will I would be the last person to argue again ever against applying the scientific method to solve problems Because I think that's the invention of a scientific method is one of the greatest Conventions in the history of all history. However, I think there are many folks who would say Yeah, there's a big difference between science and politics and in science you're interested in the truth You're interested in things that work for and in politics you're interested in finding compromises Though that's a fundamentally different thing Yes, I know um, I believe there are um, let's see so In research science, you are trying to get to the facts and say this is Uh, this is factual. This is this is not factual and um, and I believe in politics. There are things that we can say um The climate is changing is it changing or is it not changing? And that is something that you um, you could have an opinion about But uh, but if you can't if you can't support your opinion with with facts Then you that's how you reach a an understanding with um With your fellow converse people or however you might um, call them your peers I also believe that the voting, you know, population is a very um, and maybe maybe not even the voting population but the electorate the the people of of an nc11 Are are very independently minded. They're counties. I'm not sure about Polk County But I know Mitchell County and and Yancey County and I believe every county are all the plurality of voters are um, unaffiliated our independence and They vote for uh, the person and not the party and I here's the for instance for you. I walk the street to burn still um, well, there's not that many streets It doesn't take long and um, and I go in the shops and I say hi and how's it going today and stuff like that and there's There's a fellow in there. He's uh, um, well We we got to know each other or because he's his last names of blev and my mom's last names in archery are they are Papals grew up in the same hall or you know that they were carpenters together etc etc so um He's interested he's he loves stem. He's interested in flight and airplanes and stuff But he also believes the bible is a written truth And and I'm not here to tell him the bible's not true. He can believe that if he wants I am here to tell him that the you know, the fossil record is a is a is a factual thing Um, however if he cute if he chooses not to believe in the fossil record, I that's okay with me He uh, he also he he says, you know, I said I'm running for congress. He says, well, you know, I vote for the other guy But you know I I vote for the person not for the not for the party and um In terms of we have a whole lot in common We have a lot of things that we have several things that aren't in common But we have a whole lot that are in common and um and and and we can both say Live and let live About some of the other things which aren't we're not we disagree on Well that seems to me to be blunt a little old fashioned in a in a sense that there was a time where You would just choose the person who you agree with the most But we're very very polarized in this time and I'm not sure that That there are tons of people out there willing to Set aside their differences in favor of their favorite subjects I mean basically they're saying you're either all aboard my my set of things I care about or you're not You're saying you just you don't feel that it's a case when I talk to people in the hauler When I go to the hardware store when I talk to you know people in the square in burns though I feel like you know people want people want to be a little old-fashioned about that kind of thing and I think that's um, you know, I think Yeah, call me old-fashioned. I'm fine with that. Well, I'm not saying it's a bad thing It would be great if we went back to a time before we weren't all polarized and and most people weren't It used to be you could not always predict how someone was going to vote Now it's very easy to predict to predict how people are going to vote based on how they wanted before or based on their Religious affiliation or their demographic characteristics. So you're basically trying to appeal to our better angels and despite some despite the the national trend You're saying maybe the folks in western North Carolina still haven't still have an independent streak Well, if there was ever a group of people that had an independent streak. It's it's people in western North Carolina. And um, you it's um You won't find a more Honorary group of people and well how people responded to do you as a scientist come make up and saying hey I want to I want to be your your congressman because there's got to be some people skeptical about that Well, one thing I get a lot of is we need smart people in congress and For better or worse, you know, they equate me having a PhD and being a scientist was being smart I personally don't believe I'm that much smarter than anybody else But that's neither here nor there. I work very hard. I I will do um, you know, I'm I don't stop until I get to where um You know some some solution and uh, and I look at things from lots of different angles And that angle includes this guy who believes that the Bible is is a written truth You can't just ignore that he believes that and he and that's for all I know he's right. I don't I can't disprove him Right and so um, so who am I to tell him that he's wrong? I find this idea that people are demanding intelligence in our political representatives Very interested because just this last few days Our outgoing Senator Tom Tillis stood up in the Senate and raged about the stupidity of So much of what is going on in in Washington and uh, I kind of wonder where has Tom been for the Where's that Tom been? Yeah, but yeah, but the point is uh, there is a widespread consensus that uh, unwise portion of America no longer trusts the intellectual elite the academics The you know the the scientists the engineers the folks have put us on the moon and created the internet There are no longer respected and deferred to and expertise is no longer respected in general But you're suggesting maybe we've gone too far. Maybe things are starting to switch back My granny and papal didn't go to high school They were experts at what they did you could go out in the woods with my granny and she would find she could tell you 10 different things that would keep you alive If you were at any time of year And and that you would have no idea that you could actually consume or that would could be useful for you My papal could make anything out of anything And um, he was a carpenter he helped build the parkway My mom didn't have electricity till she was in the sixth grade These are this is Just because I have a PhD doesn't make me More intelligent or more innovative than Then anybody up in the hall or I I like to call myself a hillbilly scientist And and and so because I am you know, I find ways to get things done just like people who need To get a spring going find a way to get a spring going well, I've long thought that this notion that Half of America no longer trusts people with PhDs To be a very superficial analysis because when you got right down to it most people do deferred experts You go to your mechanic if you've got a problem with the brakes in your car And and most people still go to a dentist and not just try to yank of teeth out with the parapliers It's just certain subjects are so far removed from the here and now that It's easy to pretend these people are out of touch with reality When in fact the reality is just very very complicated and I'm I'm wondering when I Hear Tom Tillis go on about the stupidity in congress Maybe Maybe people are starting to recognize that we can't afford to to dismiss experts So North Carolina under the late governor hunt founded art the research triangle park and That was a brilliant stroke because Government that the fed the state government recognized and governor hunt specifically Recognized that We had a resource in three major universities that were in very close proximity and the um and the The sort of innovation that was in that area was unique But we needed a way to harness that and that's what RTP is I believe North Carolina citizens have our our proud and brag about things like RTP and That was a political innovation and and and I'm brilliant on Years before other people, you know thought about okay, well We're gonna have a a small business park here or we're gonna do this or that there And um, it was a big bull booth and It's a kind of thing that people of North Carolina do North Carolina people especially the western North Carolina people are proud of the innovation that comes out of North Carolina and And I think if you if you look at the sort of beer industry in western North Carolina You know, that's science and innovation. There's people doing that You know Testing things and coming up with new things If you look at the old paper industry Which used to be here in western North Carolina and and now There's there's other things which We need to harness and be be smart about and one of those things I think is artificial intelligence and so if you Out in Cherokee County, there's Data farms already being built up there and People out there upset about it because it's is jacking up the the prices of energy And because they consume energy like it's going out of style This is a national international problem. Oh, yeah, and um, I happen to be the only candidate for That I know of that I've used artificial intelligence since the 90s and it was in different forms. It was called different things but It's always it's the same thing and it's just boomed because of the The chip technology behind it has just taken off and the ability to do it has uh, you know at us at a fast and profitable rate Is uh is now here upon us and so We need people to think about how to regulate that and how can people western North Carolina benefit from the building of data farms in our in our district and I think you know, I have the I have this sort of background that can leverage uh, this uh and and turn it turn what could be a a natural like almost a disaster Into something that is um, profitable and and brings it resources to western North Carolina So you think we have the uh The the the electrical grid capacity and water because both of those are needed for for server farms You think western NC is a good place for that it could be yeah, but it's um We can't just let it happen without our Without us having some control over There are state-level things that need to be done, but also the the biggest things that can be done are in the federal level and um and this is something that is It's gonna happen. We can't stop it from happening However, we can Turn that wave that's coming, you know, we can surf it instead of being swallowed by it So in other words, it's something we need to be concerned about and we need people who understand the issues involved And you're right. I don't think anyone else is brought up this issue Well, I wouldn't expect them to but um You know, that's something I do I deal with like on a almost on a daily basis before in my sort of research We use it and we use it for good, hopefully, you know, and also as a professor teaching I have students turning stuff in that's um AI generated and and I can pick that out like easy For now for now. Yeah But um, you know, now I'm not a professor. I'm I'm on leave. So I don't have to worry about that part of it, but um But I know about that. We don't need to be scared of it. We need to be aware of it Let's turn finally then to the the question of temperament and a most philosophy because Oh, here's something I know it's just the other day mode Davis who you know wanted this job that that you are our Looking for um He recently made a post about all the craziness that's going on in in Venezuela and ice and all this stuff He got he got millions of views on on his social media posts In other words a lot of people are paying attention to the him and the sort of Thing that he is doing and he's not made himself a big fan of the democratic date party Because he's course language fills his posts and he's very critical of the way which the the state party Has kind of lined up behind Jamie Ager and made it a post for him to run a campaign at least that's what he claims But he has a posse he has people who appreciate his kind of I'm kicking ass attitude and I have to admit when I look across the country there's a woman up in um in Chicago who's doing this There's a to a lesser extent a OC and Zora and Lombani in New York. They are Little fireflies sparks coming out sometimes not so little a lot of people are looking for yeah Are they looking for someone with A lot of grant writing history It's but importantly because writing grants is something a lot of a lot of scientists have to do a lot of the time And they often any senior scientist it it becomes the biggest part of their job So is is that really? Can can you take that one skill and and and transform it um, I'm not one to um Let's say I've been known to drop a curse word or two in my classes um, I uh I have passion about things. However, I'm not I'm a lover not a fighter. Let's put it that way and so Moe is a little more on the fighter side of things. I think he would he would just admit that Hi, I be proud of it. Yeah, and and I think that's great, but but I believe that Um, how how is fighting gonna get us there? And so what we need this discussion and analysis and talk about it and so um So, you know, I'm What good is fighting? That's that's what I would ask and um if somebody wants to throw a punch at me They can throw a punch at me. I can I'm a big guy. I can take it But that to me is not how solve the problem It's not gonna make it go away. It's just gonna make it grow And so what we need is compromise what you said earlier and and this is that's my There's always a different solution than fighting in my point of view And uh, I will pray I will also say I have a character flaw. I'm an eternal optimist and I um and I know that and somehow I think you almost have to be to be a research scientist because Research is so you're you're told no nine times out of ten and if if it's it could be no you're told by the cells You're asking the cells a question and they just they just flip you the bird Or you're told no your paper isn't good enough or no your grant's not good enough And and you get you get a yes really rarely and it's amazing that we all won't jump out the windows but it's um You have to be able to Take a blow Absorb it and say okay. Why did that person hit me? How did I how can I come around and fix that? Why was that? um Person upset with me Well, I agree you do have to have a degree of hope sitting in the back of your head all the time when you're a scientist and that is the one thing that that I think Good successful politician share. I mean Obama wrote a book called the Audacity of Hope and and if you listen to Zoran Mamdani He is extraordinarily optimistic about things perhaps Unreasonably so it seems at the times, but so far it's working for him Uh, and maybe being Rough around the edges all of the time is not the way to Uh and when you know make friends and influence people I mean you're gonna get attention That's for sure and um and but that's Is that solving the problem, you know, so how are you going to solve the problem? Well, I guess you're kind of hoping we're kind of We've we've had peak polarization peak animosity and maybe you're on the edge of a new wave of civility A new old wave My father died of multiple myloma nine years ago He was a Vietnam that decorated soldier and and he died. So Agent Orange was known to Directly linked to multiple myloma He was uh, he was a lover not a fighter and um, he was a physician. I saw him help people That couldn't pay for his services He used to take uh You know everything in exchange for for people wanting to give himself and You know one time he came home with a case of Pepsi and uh like not a case, but like a like a crate and um and he had a broken foot and I said and he said He may have the story that he fought off a Robert from a Pepsi truck and broke his foot and then they gave as a reward they gave him as case of Pepsi But what really happens is that he slipped on the ice on the way to the hospital from his office and broke his foot And but one of his patients gave him a case of Pepsi as a as a payment and um and you know, I mean It's easier For me to sit and talk to somebody and say okay, why are you why are you mad at me? Right? I'm more comfortable doing that than then throw on a punch at somebody Or an insult a virtual punch I'd rather understand them Well, that is an optimistic view of politics um and I guess we'll find out if from The Democrats who are voting and the independence. You're gonna we're going to cast a democratic ballot If they share that that optimism. Yeah, so good luck. Well, thanks James. Thank you I think that will be the last episode devoted to the Democratic candidates for NC 11 Remember the poke county is split between NC 11 and NC 14 with saluda and the son of you Cooper's gap portions in 11 and the rest in 14 If you haven't already you can listen to my interviews with the Democrats in the running for NC 11 Zelda Briarwood Jamie Ager and Richard Hutspiss There is one more candidate in that race But I can't find any evidence that Lee Whipple's campaign is a serious one You can also listen to my talk with Brent Caldwell Who is the leading Democrat running in NC 14? I've reached out to the Republicans who appear in their primary ballot in March But I haven't heard anything back from them yet. Stay tuned As always you can reach me with your thoughts and suggestions by emailing James H at pokelor.com Thanks for listening