The Hidden UFO Program Is Real - Here’s How It Works! (ft. UAPGerb)

Jonathan Wagant, he is told at one point that there's a downed friendly or forehand plane. No big deal. After a combination of driving and trekking, they encounter a clearing. There's an enormous egg-shaped, teardrop-shaped craft embedded in the cliff face. And there seemed to be a hatch open with an arm hanging out with four fingers. It was dripping, the serpent-like is liquid on it, it was everywhere. It was weird, it was a published green color. He feels like a bean is communicating to him and his mind telling him not to be scared, but also asking for help. They were not going to harm me, and that was basically that everything is going to be alright. It just helped me get the subs get out of here. There's one common thread I found, and each of these three people had the same thing happen that they kind of answered independently. They're immediately intercepted by a between eight and twelve operators in all black. No insignia, no name tags, held at gunpoint. All three of these men directly after their encounters were given what they were told were anthrax vaccine boosters. Anthrax, boosters. Yeah, what's so weird. You're one of the few people who puts names, dates, programs, acronyms to the actual UFO legacy program. You're famous for your acronyms. Cones and Oconus, outside Cones, Continental United States, intelligence surveillance, reconnaissance platforms, ISR, OICI, and yes, FFRDC, federally funded research and development centers. Wow, correct. You have somebody like Dick Cheney, maybe at the top, and then you have these six different kind of high up intelligence organizations. And DOD stuff. And DOD stuff. Yeah, okay. So you have DOD plus intelligence organizations. Do you know the first director of OGA, the Office of Global Access? Doug Wolf. This is Doug Wolf. Do you know Doug Wolf spent 16 years in the NRO. He was the executive assistant to the director of the National Reconnaissance Office. Wow. He was indeed CIA, DST, Deputy Director. He indeed started the OGA. Wow. And indeed, he was the DDNI AT&F, the Deputy Director for National Intelligence for Acquisition Technology and Facilities. Wow. He has direct oversight over NRO acquisition. Amazing. It's obviously Bob Lazar, you know, his briefed on Project Looking Glass. Yeah. Which is like the manipulation of timelines. You have Tim Taylor. He kind of thinks of himself as like a adjustment bureau timeline management person. This sphere was basically used to, I guess, like, coagulate time onto the Planck scale, looking at time as frames of Planck scale. And combined with like the many worlds interpretation of quantum physics to like view parallel timelines. I'm here with Sammy, UAP Gerb, who in my estimation is the most hardcore UFO researcher today. And I think in a world where kind of a lot of people like to talk in these sort of really vague generalities. It's always everything is everything. A lot of mushy brain thinking where A is true and B is true, but somehow A and B are mutually exclusive. Nothing really makes sense, you know, except everything kind of wholeheartedly. You are one of the few people who tries to put names, dates, programs, you know, acronyms to the actual UFO legacy program. You're famous for your acronyms and you have a real map that you're kind of basically like illustrating through every single episode of what is actually happening in the concrete UFO reverse engineering program. So I'm excited to get into all of that with you today. Well, thanks for having me on, Jesse. This is the kind of second big program we've done. A while ago, I think it was the beginning of the year. I had a super small channel you had me on really brought some exposure to kind of my platform. So I'm super grateful to that. I appreciate you kind of taking a chance to have me on then. We had a great conversation then. We'll have an even better conversation today because people who watch my channel know that what I like to do is legacy programs. You know, Chris Ramsey is interested in the experiencer. You're interested in more physics, physics based science. I like legacy programs. I like acronyms. I like a really boring program, funding such. So I kind of focus on UFO legacy programs, crash retrieval, basically in a sense programs to retrieve, store, exploit and derive technologies of non human origin. The approach I like to take is really trying to iron out specifics and be as specific as possible. I've been super interested in the subject since I was a little kid, but you know, we talked about this yesterday. It seemed to me and it just like a lot of people approach this topic. Like there was always the amorphous they of running UFO reverse engineering programs, the big US government, the big they. And it wasn't until David Grush spoke in 2023 that something clicked in my head and I thought I can really start attributing names to these programs. People have worked in the programs where these programs might take place. Exact mechanisms, how these programs might be funded, exact contractors, exact institutions that might be working on them. So I love hyper specifics. And if we want to talk hyper specifics today, we can do just that. Let's do it because I think a lot of people are probably extremely confused at the org chart. You know, of the actual UFO legacy program, I think the debrief published something. I want to say at the end of last year around the White House having to do with some of these programs, you hear that the White House sometimes has to do some of the programs and then simultaneously, you hear that the president doesn't have a need to know and doesn't know anything about the program. So you hear these things all the time that are so hand wavy about how this stuff works. And I think you're the only person who's actually mapping it out. What is the org structure of the UFO legacy program? So I'm trying to map it out. I think at the end of the day, this is probably more complicated than any bus can guess because there's 90, 80, 90 years at least of these programs being spun up out of the Manhattan Project, out of the Atomic Energy Commission, out of probably initially the executive branch and the National Security Council. But the way I really like to look at UFO legacy programs, programs to retrieve, store, exploit and derive technical vehicles of unknown origin, is simplistic terms like a pyramid. The head of the pyramid is the polar of the strings. That's probably a name we don't know or it's probably somebody like the late Dick Cheney. I think that that's probably highly accurate that what did Walter Kern say that Dave Grush told him that Dick Cheney was the head of the UFO pyramid for quite a while. That's highly likely probably true. The closest person we got that I was aware of was unfortunately now deceased vice president Dick Cheney, Darth Vader himself, not shocking that he was involved in this. And essentially when he left in 2009, that was the last time that these activities really had central leadership. Now below that, there seems to be UFO legacy program administrators. Now these administrators are likely seem to stem from the big six intelligence agencies, not big five. The National Security Agency NSA, DIA CIA, NRO and NGA. There's not five. There's six. There's the neuro, the National Underwater Reconnaissance Office, which was established in 1969 and still has not been disclosed to this day. So directorates within those intelligence agencies, for example, the CIA's directorate of science and technology seems to be a legacy program administrator. And then conversely on the same side, other side of that coin, DOD agencies, you know, this could be the Edwards 412 test wing. This could be Army test and evaluation command. This could be the Office of Naval Intelligence, the Office of Naval Research. And so those seem to be the UFO legacy program administrators. Now in most of discussion about legacy programs, and this is kind of perpetuated in most mainstream discussion of the topic. It's, okay, the United States government, DOD and intelligence community, and then contractors, you know, the Lockheed Martin, the North App Grimmins, the Battelle Memorial Institutes. I think that's incorrect. And I think that's very incorrect. I think there's an intermediary step between that. And this is below the legacy program admins and above the defense industrial base contractors, the prime contractors. And that is people, people who watch my channel will probably laugh at me saying this because I talk about it nonstop at FFRDC, federally funded research and development centers. These are government-owned contractor-operated institutions that are subject matter experts for all sorts of programs that the United States government, DOD, and IC can't handle themselves. So FFRDC's examples here would be the MITRE Corporation, numerous institutions run by Battelle Memorial Institute, Sandia, Lawrence Livermore, Oak Ridge, Department of Energy, National Nuclear Security Administration, National Labs. The reason why FFRDC's I think are higher on the totem pole, if so to speak, than contractors is because FFRDC's are inherently government-owned contractor-operated. So these institutions can serve as subject matter experts for exotic technology programs, but elements of the Department of Defense or Intelligence Community can still maintain access control over materials, information, personnel, etc. So the FFRDC can serve as an R&D expert and subject matter expert and be a program admin for the defense industrial base contractors. So that's how the USG, the United States government and its elements of legacy programs can still retain control over these programs. You know, people talk about, oh, the programs have run away and Lockheed Martin and Northrop Kremlin, I don't think that's correct. People will say that these programs have no oversight. No, I think there's a very structured oversight to these programs. It's just not traditional oversight channels. And then at the bottom of this pyramid is the defense industrial base prime contractors, the Lockheed Martin's, the Northrop Kremens and what Northrop aid up, BDM, TRW, Teledine Ryan, Raytheon. Raytheon, especially with the US Army and so forth, the mortar that holds this pyramid together would be the defense industrial base and funding mechanisms. This would be stuff like major range and test facility bases or MRTFBs, which are basically large DOD ranges across the continental United States. I believe there are 26 such agencies. They're spread across the US Army, US Navy, US Air Force, and defense agency. Examples here include the Nevada Test and Training Range, you know, that houses Area 51, that houses allegedly S4, that houses the Tonipa Test Range, all sorts of weird little San Dia run sites, the numbered areas. This includes the Utah Test and Training Range, the West Desert Test Center, both of those are situated on Duckway Proving Ground, Edwards 412 Test Wing, out of Edwards Air Force Base, China Lake, Puttuxent River, and so forth. And funding mechanisms, I think the best way to look at this is what David Grush has spoken about. And this would essentially be misappropriation of funds, right? IRAD, independent research and development, which is a very creative system that defense industrial base contractors can take upon projects that they consider to be in the interest of national security and build the DOD for it. This includes carryover funds, which basically budget left over at the end of a fiscal year that's not reported, that's then utilized by the agency. And we can talk about this more, but in 1994, 1995, the National Reconnaissance Office, the NRO, which runs America's Spice Adelites, an immense and significant primarily that David Grush worked for as well as the NGA got busted in huge trouble. They underwent a Senate and GAO audits for enormous misappropriation of funds specifically carryover funds back in 1994 1995 in the realm of $3.2 billion or so. And remember, the NRO was only to classified in 1992. This could also be overcharging of parts. There's a really interesting example of this back in the 80s and 90s of the Navy. It'd be things like, it'd be things like ash trays on military planes that were overcharged by thousands of dollars, profit margins of like 60 to 80% on submarines. A socket wrenches for fighter jets priced like 15,000% over what they should be worth and so forth. And then finally, you know, if we're thinking about this pyramid as like the old Egyptian pyramids, the pyramids were once encased in limestone, right? To protect the pyramids from the elements and so forth. Well, that limestone casing for this UFO legacy program pyramid, this would be program protection strategies. This would be the DARPA Defense Advanced Research Project Agency Security and Intelligence Directorate Sid, which is responsible for program protection for some of the United States most classified special access programs. DARPA said this is the boogie man. This would also be Department of Energy Intelligence, Department of Energy Office of Intelligence and Counterintelligence OICI. And yes, the DOE has its own intelligence agency. This would be Black budget program structure like SAPS, Special Access Programs, USAPS, Unacknowledged Special Access Programs, or in the Intelligence Community Caps, controlled access program, car about contracts with defense industrial prime contractors. For their examples of program protection strategy would be complex psyops, disinformation, disinformation campaigns, national security council programs, Sean Kirkpatrick, Aero, Rick Dodie, stuff like that. So, I think that took like 10 minutes, but in a super broad term, that is how I view the structure of legacy programs, a very complex pyramid. And again, it's probably far more complex than we can even begin to understand, but that is how I look and start to break down the structure of programs. Well, I think a lot of people are probably thinking with complexity, you get, you end up with leaks and you end up with coordination issues. And I think that speaks to, and then my response to that with a lot of people is like, well, there have been a ton of numerous. And you have people like Stephen Greer. And in some ways, to me, you're like the cooler heir to Stephen Greer, where you're like a better place, I think, for a lot of these whistleblowers to go and get their stories out. And I mean, all of this stuff is hidden in plain sight. It's all out there. I've broken people on my show. You've broken a lot of people. And you know, these aren't just campfire stories. Like they really add up and in aggregate, you have to like slap, you know, pretty high confidence level, especially when they all the details totally comport. Yeah. I mean, as far as leaks go, there are just numerous, including credited and credible individuals. You know, we talked about the Edwards 4/12 test swing back there as a major range and test facility base kind of like the mortar that sticks together these legacy programs. Well, I'm familiar with the X Air Force Lieutenant Colonel out there who claims to have run a program that was focused on testing alien reproduction vehicles and derivative technology. This guy was an electronics warfare group to test group director. He claimed to serve as the intermediary between test pilots on the ARV and contractors and scientists and so forth. Wow. And this was at Edwards 412th Test Division. 412th Test Wing. Yeah. Test Wing. The Edwards 412 Test Wing also operates. They're also the manned people at Area 51. Okay. So the Edwards 412 Test Wing also has a big presence at the NTTR and Nevada Test and Trading Range and the Tonipa Test Range. Wow. And so and this this Lieutenant Colonel from the Air Force, what is he saying about like the test so for for the audience, you know, if you're not aware, ARV is alien reproduction vehicle, which is basically a reverse engineered UFO maybe with some, you know, human text locked on to make it workable. And so what is he saying about these ARVs? Are they are they similar to the Mark McCannlish story where it looks like human kind of older tech retrofitted on super advanced alien tech or what is it? It seems like a more advanced platform. This guy has gone pretty quiet because I think he was, was threatened like many people are in this topic, but his testimony mainly takes place between 2000, 1998 when the Nevada Test and Trading Range was renamed from the 98th Range Wing and about 2007, 2008. So these were many times triangular airframes, saucer-shaped airframes. Nothing too specific about that, but that's very interesting. The subject of alien reproduction vehicles, I've started to transition more to the usage of the term derivative technology. Because I think that ARV isn't the end all be all of what we're trying to do with and exploit from exotic non-human technologies. I think there are instances in which even just simple technologies are plucked off of exotic vehicles and tried to be adapted to, you know, prosaic U.S. airframes. Yeah, the classic example I like kind of run into and I go back and forth on it is like I think towns and brown figured out like, you know, real anti-gravity or whatever in the human kind of terrestrial context with these kind of capacitor experiments. But the thing he used to love to use was bismuth because it was a high-k dielectric. So it created more thrust. And then Gary Nolan from Jacques Vallet has these magnesium bismuths parts that he thinks came from Roswell. And so you have what looks, what appears to be something from kind of, you know, other worldly or, you know, NHI, you know, alien provenance, actually helping in like an anti-gravity experiment that we know is conducted, you know, in multiple contexts in 1950s. So it's really crazy. I think one of the big ones, one of the biggest sought-after capabilities that has probably been harnessed is electro-optic cloaking, signature management for U.S. airframes. I think to Dylan Borland and he's talking about the triangle he saw over Langley. You remember that he's talking about how, and the exterior of this triangle there seemed to be this lava-esque flow. Yes. The craft itself was this black metallic flake paint, but on top of the craft was this gold lava, plasma, some type of fluid going over and around the craft. I'm under this for about two to three minutes. And then the center light flashes two to three times. No sound. Immediately shoots up to commercial jet level minimum in my opinion. And I immediately feel static electricity all over my body. And then I smell the smell of after a thunderstorm or lightning storm. That really strong summer thunderstorm smell gets up to flight level. I'm trying to get my phone reset. And I can only see the center light at this point. If I didn't actually see it take off, I would have thought it was a star. And it seemed like the triangle appeared around a light, almost like it was using signature management capabilities. Now Dylan Borland, he said that I think he inferred he doesn't think the vehicle was human, but because of what he he learned after after having some exposure into legacy programs, I still maintain that the triangles are likely human airframes, at least most of them. And electro-optic cloaking is a very sought-after capability. There have been instances in the early 2000s in which specifically the army was interested in adapting electro-optic cloaking to next-generation combat vehicle. Think of an M1 Abrams tank with a cloaking device on it. But that makes sense, right? What makes you think the electro-optic cloaking came from non-human technology? Witness testimony. Interesting. Witness testimony. But that makes which witness testimony? He doesn't want to be exposed. Yeah, sure, sure. But can you speak high level to his? Yeah, very high level. Somebody that I would trust with my life. What would be a sought-after capability if some of these UFOs exhibit, some of the five or six observables, including low observability and some of these employee electrooptic cloaking. That'd be a very sought after capability. I mean, what could be more valuable than our aerial platforms or our intelligence surveillance reconnaissance platforms, ISR, airframes that can literally go invisible and gather intelligence 100 feet away from a target over denied airspace? - What does this witness say anything that you can relay as far as how exactly, you know, NHI derived-- - Oh, he doesn't know. - No, he doesn't know. - There was just vehicles that employed cloaking systems that there were facets of the army that was trying to adapt this to US vehicles. So that's kind of one of the reasons I started to use derivative technology. I love the Mark McCandlish story, which I do believe that is a legitimate story of the flux liner and basically a copycat vehicle. Basically, you know, the sports model that Bob talks about being basically an extraterrestrial vehicle we're trying to figure out and drive. So I like using the term extrater-- I mean, sorry, derivative technology. 'Cause I don't think in every single case, every single facet of legacy program is specifically trying to create ARV or just create copycat vehicles. I think there are times where technologies are bridged or adapted to US airframes. - And you think there is a kind of majestic 12 equivalent today, so the majestic 12 is this, you know, elite military intelligence scientific unit created, you know, under Truman and Eisenhower. Do you think that that exists today and do you think, like, you mentioned Dick Cheney, so Walter Kern is actually buddy of mine. And, you know, also knows David Grush. And he came out and he was like, I expected the head of the UFO legacy program to be like a Templar in Europe or something. - A Knight of Nets. - A Knight of Malta, but in fact, or Rosacrucian, whatever. But in fact, it was just Dick Cheney, you know, all along, is, so like, do you think there's a majestic 12? Do you think somebody like a Dick Cheney, it was in the modern day equivalent of the majestic 12? - I think Dick Cheney absolutely was. I mean, he's passed now. I think he was the head of some facets of UFO programs for a while. As far as majestic 12, it's so complicated with all the documents. I'm of the mind a group called Match 12, did certainly exist. And then with the majestic documents, I think there's some legitimate documents, some passage material documents, and then some obvious hoaxes. - Yep. I'm particularly fond of the Eisenhower briefing document, you know, the document that apparently briefed presidential incumbent Dwight D. Eisenhower upon the majestic 12's creation. There's interesting details that line up with James V. Forrestall meeting with President Truman. At the same time that the MJ-12 was allegedly set up, same with Walter B. Smith being read into the MJ-12 after James Forrestall was thrown out of a naval hospital window. And apparently Walter B. Smith taking his replacement in the MJ-12 and actual meetings with Truman on that exact date, as well as the interplanetary phenomenon unit documents that were, I think, released in 1994, 1995 to Tim Cooper from a pseudonym Thomas Cantwell. - Yep. - Those are interesting. The IPU doc specifically, the IPU was kind of discovered through FOIA requests in 1986, 1987 by researchers, such as William Steinman. According to FOIA, IPU, the interplanetary phenomenon unit was an in-house army unit only existing through institutional memory. Other people like Kevin Randall that kind of proposed some debunks like the IPU was like an internal processing unit for the mailroom of the Army. - Do you know who Steinman FOIA, like which government agency let out that the IPU existed? - It was Army counterintelligence. - Army CIC, okay. I mean, that's pretty interesting. - Right, there's saying this thing exists, but it only exists in institutes and memory. All the records were wiped. 'Cause apparently this was held under like a J2 or something at the time. - Interesting. - What's interesting, I kind of recently went through the IPU docs specifically related to San Dia because we should and can talk specifically probably about what institutions, what people, what places are probably engaged in the programs. But the IPU doc, the field report or the IPU report that stated like July, 1947 in this basically details, allegedly how the Roswell retrieval incident went down. And the document talks about a special engineering detachment, a SED, which was like a Manhattan project, engineering detachment and stuff being sent out to the Roswell wreckage led by one colonel Housebrook of the Armed Forces Special Weapons Project, AFSWP. Basically to attend to the wreckage and so forth, the AFSWP is very interesting. It was started one half by James Forrestall and by another individual. The AFSWP has gone through a series of evolutions and today is known as the Defense Threat Reduction Agency or DITRA. DITRA is what Dylan Borland had just said on the weaponized podcast housed old atomic energy commission records that stated that UFOs were of extraterrestrial origin. The AFSWP was established in 1947 at San Dia Base in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Right at the same time when Los Alamos Z Division, which was kind of their weapon ordinance arm, established operations at San Dia Base. So San Dia National Lab, which is a Department of Energy and NSA National Lab can kind of trace their roots back to Los Alamos Z Division at San Dia Base. So it's interesting that this AFSWP and San Dia kind of started and evolved around the same time. So the IPU docs are a really interesting thing that I think deserve a lot of attention from the majestic documents. That's fascinating. Doesn't Timothy Cooper those specifically doubt like the Majestic 12 stuff most? Didn't he say like I think these documents are bullshit either? And a lot of people do and of course how could you not when you have guys like Rick Dodie and Bill Moore kind of involved when at a move on conference Bill Moore basically says hey, I was instructed to so disinformation into the community. That's why like if you're going to talk about the majestic documents, it can never be, hey, this is evidence or kind of verification for a claim I'm exploring or something. It should be the majestic document should be used as an auxiliary. If you're talking about a subject and already have a strong thesis or strong argument and be like, hey, well, this is pretty interesting. These majestic documents talk about this, but you can't rely on it too heavy because you know if there's probably a lot of pass and material like the Psalm 101 that Tim Phillips and Arrow have been using behind the scenes to talk about, yeah, you know that? No, I didn't. Tim Phillips went on the event Horizon podcast and talked about that arrow found. You know, tell the audience who Tim Phillips is. Oh, Tim Phillips is the very disgraced ex deputy director of Arrow after Sean Kirkpatrick turned coat and ran to Oak Ridge National Laboratories or NL, which is another DOE NNSA national laboratory, which weirdly deleted his job posting. Tim Phillips took over as at Arrow started immediately at lashing out to Dave Grasch on LinkedIn. Do you remember that? And then he was let go from Arrow for being a bit of a wild card, but he started doing podcasts around similar to what Sean Kirkpatrick did. And would tell specifically like the event Horizon podcast during his tenure at Arrow, they found like this manual which talks about like packaging and unpackaging debris and craft and bodies from an extraterrestrial vehicle crash and how this thing was like chock full of diagrams and all this stuff. And then he would kind of change his story whether he was on air or off air details of this document. Of course, this is the Psalm 101 and off air to various people. Sean Kirkpatrick made similar comments about the documents. So it's weird that Arrow specifically is pushing that. Yeah, yeah, it is weird. But you find all these sort of crazy connections with Kirkpatrick in his past. The DOE and goodness, it's just kind of crazy. Okay, so I want to rehash this for the audience just throughout a lot of names and acronyms. So you have somebody like Dick Cheney, maybe at the top. And then you have the six different kind of high up intelligence organizations and DOD stuff. Yeah, okay. And then below that, you have the FFR DCs and then below that, you have the contract. Defense industrial base. And so it's like when Jake Barber comes out and he says, I'm the fingertips or whatever. Like it's because he's working at, you know, he says, you know, you could pick your two. And I think Danny Shieh and accuse him of being at Northrop. So maybe you could go with whatever she says. I don't know. I'm surprised he said that. Can you say anything about the companies that you worked for in the context of these UFO crash retrieval? Look, man, if you took two guesses, you'd get both of them right on the first try. There you go. I don't know. But like he's, Barber is doing kind of the, the just tip of the spear, you know, job and he's not given the full context. And then the FFR DCs have a little bit more context, some insulation as far as federal funding. And then above that, the intelligence organizations and then above that, you have like what cabinet level people like. Like do you have a sense of like who the equivalent of Dick Cheney is now? I don't know, but if I had to guess, it'd be somebody with a naval background in an intelligence community background. Interesting. It seems like naval programs have been tip of the spear for a long time and deal with a lot of really sensitive stuff because they also deal with a subject of USO. Yep. And that's sort of transmutable capability to travel underwater undetected. And they're hidden intelligence agency. The Neuro seems very high priority. So I would imagine this is somebody with a joint naval and intelligence community background. Makes sense. Yeah, Harold Malmgren kept emphasizing that the Office of Naval Intelligence knew way more than meets the eye. Just details are controlled by naval intelligence. It's the oldest intelligence agency in the US in the 1890s. And if that was like, you know, at his time, you know, '60s and '70s, you would think that there would be this three line between then and now, you obviously have, you know, rumors of Bobby Rayanman, you know, being sort of involved, you know, with this stuff as well, and so maybe he would be somebody at the chainy level let's actually go through a couple of those like below chainy kind of at the tip of the spear for the administrator level. Yeah. I think a lot of individuals who have spearheaded or spearheading or have high level exposure to UFO legacy programs yeah have extensive backgrounds in the NRO. So I have a couple documents here. Maybe we can go through a couple of these. These are just kind of people that I'd love to talk about. Cool. So for the NRO, you have maybe we could start with Bobby Rayanman. Yeah. Bobby Rayanman, when he talked spoke to Bob Eschler in 1989, 1988, he referred NASA Mission Specialist Bob Eschler to Sumner Shapiro, Director of Naval Intelligence, as well as our Everett or our Everett Evans Heinman, his naming conventions a little weird. Heinman was the NRO program B director from 1982 to 1989. NRO program B was essentially a consolidation of reconnaissance activities between the NRO and CIA's directorate of science and technology and the ground element of NRO program B was established at Pine Gap Australia. I know Pine Gap is super spooky, but they call it Australia's area 51. Right. Right. And Bobby Rayanman basically said to Eschler, if you want to know about crash retrieval programs and recovered technical vehicles, go talk to Heinman. Other interesting people with high level connections to the NRO include Donald Kerr. Donald Kerr was mentioned in Okie Shannon's 1985 Advanced Theoretical Physics Working Group Documents. This was a physics group held at BDM International in 1985 at their McLean facility. Super, super, super interesting thing that apparently like John Alexander spoke at Stubblebine was involved with all this stuff. Yeah. And Okie Shannon's notes, it's like ask Don Kerr for funding when talking about like UFO reverse engineering programs. Whoa. Donald Kerr was of course high level position in the NRO. He was director of EGNG. He was director of Los Alamos, director of SAIC, deputy director of the CIA's directorate of science and technology. So there's this specific weird, there's this really specific weird kind of pairing relationship between the NRO and CIA DS&T. Yeah. And with that CIA DS&T, back in 2003, the CIA directorate of science and technology, which maybe we'll describe directorates a little bit. So I said the NRO had a program B at Pine Gap. Early days of the NRO, it had program A, B, C, and D. At the time in the 90s or so, this was reorganized into directorates. Just kind of subgroups under the NRO under the CIA. So I think a lot of UFO legacy programs are stuffed within these directorates. And to speak about the NRO and the CIA's directorate of science and technology, there's a lot of really weird, really weird crossovers there. So I think it's important to look at individuals with connections to NRO, CIA DS&T. Yeah. Two high level almost cabinet positions within the United States government and the MITRE Corporation, which is an FFRDC. There's a very tangled web between NRO, DS&T, MITRE. And then two offices within the United States government, I'd like to talk about a little bit. This would be the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment, OSUDANS. This has previously gone through numerous naming conventions as the Office of the Undersecretary for Defense for Acquisition, renamed into the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Acquisition and Technology, then renamed to the Office of the Undersecretary for Defense for Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics, finally to its naming convention today for Acquisition and Sustainment. The Ausstats Acquisition and Technology is the office kind of named in the Wilson Davis notes as holding kind of records to special carve out holdover programs that housed kind of direct access to legacy programs that flag officer Thomas Wilson allegedly started to look through where he found the watch committee high level gatekeepers for UFO legacy programs. One of the individuals he spoke about who was kind of director of the Ausstat at that time and permanent Sapok special access program oversight committee. Remember it was Mr. Paul Kaminsky. Paul Kaminsky is an individual that I think would be interesting to look at a little more in regards to UFO legacy programs. He was of course in the Ausstat and he was of course on the board of trustee for the MITRE Corporation now. And so that the Ausstat that's named all throughout the Wilson Davis notes, that is a department of defense position. Its counter position in the intelligence community is called the DDNIAT&F, the Deputy Director for National Intelligence for Acquisition, Technology, and Facilities. So the Ausstat are now noticed today, Undersecret Defense for Acquisition and Sustainment, and this DDNI are two sides of the same coin. These two offices, according to the GAO, they have oversight over NRO program acquisitions. Okay. Interesting. So that DDNIAT&F is rather interesting. On one hand you have Paul Kaminsky, who was Ausstat and MITRE. On the other hand, you have somebody like Don Myricks right here, who is MITRE and DDNIAT&F with a long agency background, a very weird agency background. Former Deputy Director of the CIA for Science and Technology. And we know a couple of connections there, Glenn Gaffney, obviously Director of Science and Technology for the CIA. Are any of you willing to name specific gatekeepers within the root cell of the UAP SAP Federation? I have a name for you. Go ahead. Glenn Gaffney, CIA. Glenn Gaffney, CIA. Now you have all this congressional testimony that he specifically, you know, blocked this, you know, moving of exotic, you know, non-human origin technology that was under-locked that was supposed to go to Bigelow Aerospace in 2008, and Glenn Gaffney actually bought this. And you can think the the arrow historical report volume one for talking about 2008, seems there was a first attempt that was blocked by James Clapper. Whoa. The second event was the cone of blue-failed PSAPR. So James Clapper blocked that's what the arrow historical report volume one says? Well, that's interesting is James Clapper in the Age of Disclosure movie. So what's up with that? I don't know. He's playing outside. General Clapper, the former DNI in the documentary. I certainly applaud him for at least speaking out in general. He goes on, I believe. I've only seen clips of Age of Disclosure, not the whole thing, where there was a program when he was the director of National Intelligence, where they were tracking these vehicles over Area 51, of course, the famed classified test location. And I'm a little bit disappointed as a fellow Air Force officer and certainly General Clapper rose to the ranks as three-star general. That's all he said in the documentary that that was a program he was aware of. In fact, without being inappropriate, I will say that General Clapper was well aware of the crash retrieval issue, managed the crash retrieval issue. And when he was the DNI, USDI and DIA director, he placed people in critical roles to manage this issue both publicly and I'll just say non-publicly as well. And I'll allow the audience to still what I'm saying at the risk of being an appropriate or going too far with my discussion. The director of National Intelligence, James Clapper calls me, Mike, I need you to go through all of that. I need the team to go through all of NSA's holding all of its files. And I need everything that you have on UFOs. And I'm like, what's her? You want me to do a review of our databases on UFOs? If you see the CIA DSNT, according to Conan Blue has had direct involvement in blocking UFO legacy programs. Recall the excellent reporting of Christopher Sharp, UK journalist. He broke a great story about the CIA's Office of Global Access, which was created under the DSNT in the year 2003. That is basically tasked with a foreign UFO crash retrieval. This is a logistics agency. This is a combat support agency. So let's just say in Honduras, an egg-shaped craft goes down. The CIA OGA would be responsible for getting a, you know, JSOC tier one adjacent assets. Probably the Department of Energy Nuclear Emergency Support Team and other assets down to retrieve the craft. Doug Wolf. This is Doug Wolf. Do you know Doug Wolf additionally spent 16 years in the NRO executive, he was the executive assistant to the Director of the National Reconnaissance Office, where he was indeed CIA DSNT deputy director. That's direct oversight over NRO acquisition. Crazy. There's a ton of people like that. There's an individual named Mark Moynihan. If you find him on LinkedIn, he's a total spook of spooks. This guy, DDNI AT&F, this guy, CIA OGA, CIA DSNT NRO. So there seems to be this really interesting relationship with people who have been labeled as UFA Legacy Program gatekeepers and one of those gatekeeping offices, the DSNT. and the NRO. And it seems like this revolving door old boys club where you go from the DSNT of the CIA to, you know, miter corporation or, you know, some other federally funded research and develop you go to Rand or whatever. Well, it's a miter NRO or, you know, I can't stress this enough about the importance of miter. Yeah, yeah. The DOE national labs, you know, San Dia Oak Ridge, Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamos. Those are critical. But the importance of miter miter is the most overlooked entity in all of this subject. Why do you think that is? Because they deal with naval programs and your subject of the USO. And what's their role with respect to the Navy? Is it like tech protection or is it probably everything? A UFO related stuff for Indusac industrial security to SAP management to, yeah, monitoring large craft under the water to material exploitation to briefing oversight channels that exist. Yeah. To doing all sorts of stuff. The the miter pipeline of people who have worked for miter as you can see Paul Kaminsky, Don Myricks, Donald Kerr, numerous people who have allegedly been associated with UFO legacy programs end up at miter. Well, it's funny. I know them in the context of like holding these anti-gravity conferences. Yeah. And like, I think Ning Lee spoke at one in the early 2000s. Yeah. She was this famous Chinese American, you know, anti-gravity researcher at University of Alabama, Huntsville. She claimed to make all these breakthroughs in like weight reduction. Yeah. Above a certain mass reduction. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. And I think it's weight reduction, which is a lot of the things from that. You're right. You're right. Yeah. But yes, same sort of ridiculously crazy concept if you can do it in hell. Yeah. Yeah. And and and she's saying all this stuff about gravitons and, you know, sort of these, you know, you know, alternating current rotating superconductors. She's saying she wants to create free energy for the world. She's citing how put off and talking about electrically polarizable vacuums and stuff. And then she gets a contract. I believe with the Army, she gets security clearance. And then nobody ever really hears from her again. She gets hit by a car. It's sort of really weird. But she was seen last publicly speaking at this Miter Corporation conference about anti-gravity. Yeah. I'm like, I miss her. And I did sit down. I interviewed her. And this was at a conference in 2003, just outside of Washington, D.C., run by them, or overseen by the Miter Corporation. And it was looking at, I think, high frequency gravitational waves. And you know, she she was an interesting character because she had been involved in some of those NASA experiments I mentioned earlier about rotating superconductors and weight loss experiments. And she she chaired one of the sessions. I talked to her afterwards about it all. She had this view that this was science and technology that should be for the people. It should be, you know, very philanthropic in its nature and outcomes. And then I don't know sort of how soon after that, it was that she sort of went off grid, certainly probably about within within a year, but she just disappeared. And no one knew what it happened to. That's like just recently there was a slide deck, not really leaked, but kind of rediscovered about Eric Davis doing a teleportation study for the Miter Corporation in the back to 2019. And so when because you have people online like Ashton Forbes who like talk a lot about teleportation, like he's really sure that like you could teleport like a macro scale human being or something. When I've spoken to Eric Davis, he seems to be, you know, like talking about like quantum teleportation, saying like that's already established science, and you know, that sounds insane because the word teleportation is in it. But like, is that necessarily involved in like UFO tech or is it? I don't know. Yeah. So much of the science and physics is so far beyond me. Me too. As boring as it sounds, I like the money. I like the program names. I like the offices because while we're while we're speaking about kind of these these administrators, NRO, CIGAD, SMT, and kind of their string pullers and the DD and I AT&F and I'll statter now. O-U-S-D-A-N-S. You talked about Kona Blue, which was the failed perspective special access program that occurred in in 2010. And we can actually thank Arrow for releasing that slide deck. Weirdly enough. This was to be a DHS sponsored usap, I'll acknowledge special access program for Lockheed Martin to divulge from craft materials to the OSAT program and big low advanced aerospace space studies bass. And these materials were supposed to be bits and pieces of craft, craft hall, craft bulkhead. I myself have heard this involved the Kingman wreckage from the 1953 Kingman Arizona crash and that Lockheed Martin vice president Jim's, Jim Rider, James Rider was the one who wanted to get rid of these materials for who knows. And conventionally Glenn Gaffney, C-I-A-D-S-N-T deputy director was the one who put the kabosh and killed this. Our mutual friend Rob Jones has done some amazing work. He also offers in the name Robert Cardio who is actually D-D-N-I and head of the NGA, the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency. And while I think Robert Cardio was absolutely involved and people should go look at Robert Cardio if they're unfamiliar with him, I think this was a D-S-N-T operation specifically, Glenn Gaffney to put the kabosh on this. So, in my Lockheed project while looking into Kona Blue, I kind of came across that there may have been a conflict of interest within Lockheed Martin, maybe an insider in Lockheed who helped put the kabosh on the program. This is an individual and I'll pass you this in a second name to Mary K. Sturthavont. This is a name that it was never really floated around. I made a tweet about this. Begging Chris Melon to give some information on her to which he has declined in both a public outreach on Twitter and private messages. I have not heard from him. What did he say? I know it just nothing. Oh, nothing. Okay, I know we're gone. So, Sturthavont here has a really weird history. She worked at the BDM Corporation. In 1985, she joined the agency, when I say agency, I mean CIA for counterintelligence, tech protection, all that stuff. She kind of went, she worked in joint CIA directorate of operations and CIA directorate of science and technology programs. She was a very high level deputy director position in the NRO. And then she also served on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence where she and Chris Melon actually worked together for numerous years. Not only did they work together, but they attended many of the same meetings. Not only did they attend many of the same meetings, but over certain periods and quarters, they have the exact same per DM, which implies that they traveled together. They ate together. They attended the same meetings together on the same cars, the same craft. So, I would wager these two have a very, they know each other quite well. She was also served as a special advisor to the president under George W. Bush. And in 2006, she joined a Lockheed Martin as the vice president for government affairs from 2006 to 2021, as well as VP for intelligence, joint and science and technology programs. So, I think there may have been a conflict of interest here within Lockheed Martin. Once your agency, your agency for life, right? If you're in the CIA, you're never out of the CIA, especially the directorate of science and technology. So, I think there's a very strong argument that can be made that due to her obligations and allegiance to the CIA DSNT, she had to help put the caboch on this technology transfer. And also, you think of, if she knew Mellon, I mean, you think of Mellon that also is very pro, you know, kind of UFO stuff, at least now. When I would say to Christopher Mellon, if he's watching this because I've asked him numerous times, ask her again, Mr. Mellon, because I'm sure this time she'll remember. Okay, yeah, there you go. I'm sure this time she'll remember. And here is Mary start to want. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so interesting. I mean, you often do see people kind of playing both sides of the issue as well. Yeah. Like, you hear about, you know, Mike Turner who put the caboch on, you know, this last, or UAPDA, not this last one, but the one before it. Right. You know, my 20 fiscal year, 2024, I believe. That's right. And, you know, you hear that, like, you know, the people, you know, the largest donors to his campaign are like, you know, great, John Lockheed, Boeing, whatever. But then simultaneously, you have Lockheed clearly trying to get a bunch of information out through efforts like, you know, they spent a lot of time with Tom DeLong and the DSA and that sort of thing, secret machines. And so it seems like they do want some disclosure to occur. Obviously, when it comes to eminent domain clauses in the UAPDA, that involve taking their material and, you know, making it kind of, you know, congressional civilian oversight, you know, you know, they're obviously not going to be happy about that. But it is interesting how they're trying to sort of manage the process. Yeah. It seems like there's numerous factions competing for disclosure. One of the most obvious factions is TTSA, which involves the whole off-sap crew, Eric Davis, Hal Putoff, Lou Elizondo, Chris Mellon, all these guys. Their carefully managed disclosure seems to be about the revelations of the existence of non-human intelligence and technical vehicles and that there's programs to recover these, but no discussion of derivation of technologies possibly for national security concerns or whatever they want to say. And they really like to pose the whole NHI or super national security threat narrative. The whole TTSA saga is very weird. It seems like in 2011, Tom DeLong was plucked. This could have been an old bass, a big, low advanced aerospace space studies project. You know, they had some of their documents under OSAP, kind of not leaked, but discovered and There was discussion of a project forum within those which was to basically in California take you know celebrities media personalities Popular people to start talking about the UFO subject And I think that likely Tom DeLong in TTSA was a holdover project forum spearheaded by Lu Elisondo under direction of something like the National Security Council to bring forth limited Disclosure said TTSA is wacky when you look at it You know Tom DeLong had numerous numerous high-level advisors whether it was somebody like Lu Elisondo a whole history encounter and tell And so guys like Steve Justice from Lockheed Martin high-level Air Force generals and yeah, these guys were saying hey, you know all these all these Technologies are locked up in black budgets, but we're gonna we don't really know how to do it But we're gonna try and make our own like light craft. We're gonna try and make our own ARV Yeah, so it just seems almost like a bastardization of what legacy programs had doing like an in Like all these guys Steve Justice who had worked in programs or been exposed to them had amnesia and they had to kind of start all over again in the public sector They were there were clearly guys involved in that who had ulterior motives, and then I do think I Think you know some people don't give Tom DeLong enough credit for modern disclosure Because like so many people just wouldn't even be into the subject I think if it weren't for a lot of what he got out and I do think He on his own organically made a ton of connections poke the bear a lot Yeah, to the effective a lot of these guys coming out to him and he kind of I think put a lot of this Stuff together, and so yeah, maybe maybe they're you know ulterior motives some of the people I don't think Tom had I'll tear him out. I think he had very genuine, you know, he was a trailblazer. Yeah I think so. Yeah, I also think a strong argument can be made He was exposed to some pretty radical stuff whether this was authorized or unauthorized Disclosures if you look at his appearance on Joe Rogan back in 2017 October of 2017 This was like the radical time that he came out and talked about TTSA There's something that really caught my eye there, and I think a strong argument can be made Tom DeLong was exposed to elements of immaculate constellation. Yeah. Oh interesting. We know immaculate constellation as the the you sat Matthew Brown was exposed to that began in 2017 that utilized US Intelligence platforms overhead platforms Implying NRL with spy satellites and overhead collection platform probably NGA and and numerous various intelligence gathering systems to monitor both non-human craft and alien reproduction vehicles. There are plenty of interesting cases including Slowly rotating triangles over Indo-Patcom Indo-Pacific command within Matthew Brown's immaculate constellation document Saucer shaped craft seemingly using crowd cloud coverage as cover and all that So but the connection I'm trying to make and why I think a strong argument Tom DeLong was exposed to immaculate constellation in 2017 the year Imcon was but began is if you listen closely to that Joe Rogan interview Tom DeLong talks about episodic visits of craft He says that his high level sources in the NRO specifically Told him that scientists and A-Keds had figured out ways to basically pre-predict when and where craft would appear and thus Satellites and imagery intelligence platforms would would capture these quote-unquote episodic visits Whoa his connections to the NRO whilst he was at TTSA Luella Zondo was liaison to the NRO. He was liaison to the NRO. Whoa. I don't think a lot of people know that No, that's not that's that's not public knowledge, but yeah, he was liaison to the NRO. How'd you figure that out? curriculum CV. Okay, CV. Okay, he is onto the NRO and if you look at the immaculate constellation documents Numerous sightings talk about how the sensor collection platform seemingly had Four knowledge of the events almost like the the system was put in place to collect data on the appearance of the UFO or ARV But the system knew it was going to be there. It had four knowledge It could it could track the erratically moving tic-tac or the saucer. So I think there's a connection there with those episodic visits and the four knowledge of craft sighting the immaculate constellation documents the timelines out up to I I think that's that's something that that's worthy to be explored if you ask Luella Zondo if he was read into a immaculate constellation Of course, that's a used app. So we'll have to deny that but I think there's some interesting questions there that could be explored It's so fascinating. I think that more You read books like secret machines or like you know look at a lot of tom belongs, you know old interviews and stuff You're like I'll often like I'll catalog some of these things and I'll be like well, I'm not so sure and then I'll do my own open source Research and I'll run into something and I'm like damn he was like right about that dude like You know like he he talks about I think the Maynard consortium. Yeah, based on the Jason committee the Jason committee Or it was like I think it was like this international corporate board that oversaw the UFO issue And it's either the Jason committee. I think of more in the context of like tech protection via the the US like our you know kind of most sensitive weaponry But um, I almost associate that with you know if you read like joc full a is forbidden science He talks about like the Carlisle group constantly. Yeah coming up, you know, and and even Ben rich there's a quote in the early 90s I think with his letters Between him and and john Andrews and I think of testers motorcorp and he is talking about this like international governance board around the UFO issue and how it actually might need to be rested out of the international governance board and taken into American hands and so you know you you have a lot of things like that where you're like, you know, it seems like Tom actually was had a lot of great info. Yeah, and that's such a great point because it seems like you know whether it's a five I's retrieval program or you know tech protection stuff like the the Jason committee which was founded out of miter by the way Interesting. Yeah, I don't know that yeah cool. So that's why let's start looking at miter also like as a side note When was miter and a lot of these ffrdc started like the aerospace corporation 1959 1960 that's exactly when a Colonel Philip J. Corso of the army is not air forces foreign technology division says that Technologies were being seated into basically US defense contractors to try to adapt to improve US military might Connection there probably yeah, and you have you know, I interviewed Harold Maumgren as you know, and he was at a federally funded research and development IDA IDA and you know, he said a point blank before you know somebody wrote this like blog post kind of takedown of him He said my work at the IDA was actually a cover for what I was doing the national security council and the president and so You it was clear even back then that like you had this kind of old boys club The kind of wild wild west cowboy intelligence agencies and ffrdc's were used as a front kind of often because his Intor at the IDA was Richard Bissell. Yeah, Richard Bissell not only was deputy director of plans for the CIA later founded area 51 Basically to test the e2 spy plane But then also, you know, you mentioned this to me last night. I had forgotten Founded the the NRO. Yeah, it was one of the co-founders He was one of the co-directors because just like we talked about with the NRO and CIA DS and T The NRO was and the NRO is unique because it exists as a joint DOD IC agency and upon its creation and in 1961 after a shoot Down of a YouTube spy plan over denied airspace in the Soviet Union The NRO had co-directors one from the DOD one from the IC. Yep, and it's weird that the CIA seems to have a little tug of war over any lately founded US intelligence agencies same thing with the NRO founded in 1969 up until 1972 There was a huge tug of war between the Navy and CIA specifically the DS and T over Who controls the NRO and then of course Bobby Rayanman takes over and he's He's just agency out the wazoo. So yeah further interesting parallels between that Richard Bistle is an interesting person I'm particularly fond of and I think you probably are too if Richard Bistle allegedly briefing Malmgren on otherworldly technologies as we know our buddy Randy Anderson Offworld Technologies division under the Naval Surface Warfare Center crane Yeah, yeah, there's definitely seems like something might line up there What do you think of you know Malmgren's testimony because I did that interview And I honestly would have expected that to have been picked up by like Mainstream media because you have a guy who is a presidential advisor for JFK LBJ Nixon and Ford You could argue with his level of seniority with you know JFK specifically But he admitted that like you know, he didn't deal a ton with JFK directly He dailed dealt more with Shriver or whatever And then you can't really argue with his you know connections with the other presidents I think he he rose and senior seniority You know as time went on yeah clearly was connected at the highest levels of government to me You know, and I've met a lot of like I think pretty impressive people like just pattern matched to somebody who had a map of the world in his head Was a total kind of Kissinger type, you know, maybe without the bad vibes that kiss your head, you know The desire to create destruction and manipulate I think it was in some ways he was kind of like The opposite of Kissinger and he was actually, you know, likely I think You know, I think he he was CIA. Yeah, and and I think he was likely actually appointed to Kind of restrained Kissinger in many ways like he was kind of he was he was tagged with Raining in Kissinger who was seen as this kind of rogue guy So what do you think of his testimony because there's some people who've I think that's kind of a this coordinated job But like some people come out and attacked him since since that interview I think Maumgren was likely CIA in his position at the IDA was a knock or non-official cover, which is a very common Thing for agency stuff. Yeah. I hope that I think over time that Maumgren's testimony is gonna age like fine wine I mean, I was I was really listening to your project with him just for one of my projects and I was particularly intrigued when he is talking about intelligence communities and how intelligence communities have essentially found a way to fund themselves and so they don't adhere to traditional oversight channels because they basically fund themselves. This comports exactly with what I think about institutions like the NRO or other intelligence agencies and UFO legacy programs. 1994-1995, they can use carryover funds basically to do whatever the heck they want. I also think that I hope the 1962 bluegill triple prime nuclear test starts to get revisited with what Malmgren said, of course, that was a. Were those tests over Bikini atoll? Where were those? Johnston atoll. Yes, this came to me. Yeah. I know there's been some discussion on whether that was a targeting pod or something that was knocked out by the residual EMP at the nuclear blast when the government stated that bissel briefed him on that being a UFO. I think Jeff Crookshank has done some incredible work and is still to this day making the argument that that was a UFO recovered by the USS, I think it was engaged. What's interesting about that testimony is those tests were a work conducted under the evolution agency of the AFSWP, the Armed Forces Special Weapons Project, which eventually became DITRA. I can't remember the agency specifically. AFSWP went through like eight or nine iterations before it became DITRA. Sorry, not eight or nine, that's an exaggeration like four or five. But that agency did the testing. Yeah, really. Yeah, and Sandia supplied like the specific rocket payload for that testing and such. What's interesting to me is when Dylan Boerlin talks about all the atomic energy commission records talking about concluding that UFOs are extraterrestrial vehicles based upon the atomic energy commission. I wonder if part of those records adhere to the AFSWP before it became DITRA. It's so fascinating. So fascinating. Yeah, and the whole, I mean, so there's this guy, you know, D. Dean Johnson who took, you know, tried to do this, like, takedown of Malmgren, and the whole takedown was like, you know, he couldn't have held the Q clearance, which you wouldn't be able to figure out through the FBI at all if the guy was CIA. You just wouldn't. And especially if you're a non-official cover CIA, there's just no way. And so, I think a lot of those points are sort of rendered moot. And then you could say, well, he wasn't CIA, but it's like if you read the T-leaves on the interview, he's saying he handled the presidential daily briefs. That's a CIA thing. He's saying he's best friends with Tom Farmer, who's happened to be the general counsel of the CIA. He had Paul Mellon's walking stick in the interview, and I'm holding it for half the time in the interview or whatever, because I wanted to see it. And he had it op-hant, just in his apartment. Does it represent anything? It looks very unique. Love power. So, Paul Mellon's the founder, one of the founders of the CIA. So, like, I don't know, you got to read the read the kind of T-leaves on it. You know, and I kind of, I think figured that out through kind of basic research. You know, he's at Oxford. He's Yale. You know, it's like Richard Bistel's your mentor. He's deputy director's number two in the entire CIA. We have Richard Bistel all over his diary. So, it's like so clear to me that he was CIA. And then, I don't know, I felt like maybe it was hard for me to break this, you know, gentlemanly oath that he had, he was kind of breaking it on his own. You know, he clearly was breaking it in the UFO context, but I felt weird explicitly outing him. Yeah, I say. So, you see, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it's the guys, like, you know, literally by the time we had put it out, he had passed away, sadly. And so, like, I just didn't feel like it was my place, but I did insert a little thing at the very beginning of the monologue, saying if you, if you like, look, if you like, watch this entire interview, you'll realize he's part of a much deeper intelligence network than meets the eye. Yeah. And I think that didn't maybe a lot of people didn't process that clearly, D. D. Johnson didn't, but I don't know. The, the cue clearance specifically is kind of a mute point to me. Of course, cue clearance is the DOE's equivalent of a top secret clearance. I mean, so there are some not public individuals that I'm familiar with, one of whom specifically has claimed to have operated on a crash retrieval team, UFO crash retrieval team out of the Nevada test and training range. I've spent a lot of time kind of vetting this person and studying their claims. And I have to say I do trust them and believe them. And at Area 51, Area 51, adjacent, adjacent, not as for, but as for adjacent sites. Okay. Can you say where? One such place would be the tone of a test range, CTR, which is managed by San, San Dia, which is the Department of Energy's Experimental Weapons Testing Range. And what does he say he does specifically? We'll, we'll, we'll, we'll talk about that. That's interesting. There's some interesting points there. But basically, this guy was a sheep dipped from another US military branch, sheep, if we know that term from Jake Barber going down the combat controller pipeline, taken into the program means getting, getting erased. Yeah. Yeah. It's an agency term, right? Yeah. Going full ghost. Yeah. Yeah. So this guy was sheep dipped into the, the programs and for programs went on, on, on blue sites or unacknowledged sites, just to hang out for staging ops for rapid reaction retrieval teams. He has a badge. The badge has an arrow on it and it just has a haphazardly slapped on cue clearance. So again, I have to state that this, I can't really provide evidence for this guy's testimony to you. And this should be taken with conjecture, of course. But there, this individual, I personally believe is testimony. And it seems like he never tested for a cue clearance. He never went through any sort of system to get a cue clearance. He was just given it. He was just given the cue clearance. Yeah. And the re, I think this is also important because we just went through kind of org chart stuff around how the UFO stuff works hierarchically. But as far as the classification and clearances of this stuff, the atomic energy commission and special nuclear material, all of that stuff is really important. Yeah. So, yeah. So go, go watch David Grush on Joe Rogan. If you've, if you've watched it once, watched again, if you've watched it twice, watch it half a dozen times. And listen to the minutiae of what he says. Specifically, legacy programs starting with the same secrecy mechanisms as the Manhattan Project and the 1954 Atomic Energy Agreement birthing a lot of the secrecy behind a UFO legacy program classification and controls. From that, we can take that the Department of Energy and its precursor agency, the Atomic Energy Commission. They hold a lot of the classification systems that cover UFO legacy programs and secrecy and who gets right into the bigot list and the usaps and how the programs are delegated and where they're housed and so forth. And specifically, there's numerous mechanisms that the Atomic Energy Commission and Department of Energy can utilize based on the 1954 Atomic Energy Agreement. These include special nuclear materials, anything that gives off vaguely radioactive or radioactive signatures. Let's put that as special nuclear material. Transclassified foreign nuclear information, which that's famously outlined in the UAPDA for three years in a row, specifically named TFNI, Transclassified Foreign Nuclear Information, and FII, foreign intelligence information. Now, what's interesting about foreign intelligence information is there's a caveat to it that I think really enforces my theory. One subset of foreign intelligence information, FII, is non-contract, which means not releaseable to customers or contractors. I believe this is a security mechanism used for Department of Energy and there's semi-autonomous subordinate agency, the National Nuclear Security Administration, to obfuscate UFO programs within DOE and NSA national labs, San Dia, Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamos, and then the Y-12 Complex, which houses Oak Ridge. That's a very interesting kind of problem to go to. Because of course, it seems like with legacy programs, there's numerous layers of program security. There's the DARPA SID. If you're considered an insider outsider threat to them, they'll just kill you. There's the DOE OICI who. They're examples of them like taking people out? No, but not public. Yeah. But the DOE OICI, well, where are you getting that though that DARPA SID can just like take people out? Well, I just made a tweet about this pretty recently about the DARPA SID and basically their program protection structure for special access programs within the United States for the most national security, like restrictive special access programs, the most innovative exotic technology programs for the United States. And it just. It stands to reason that the CIA historically hasn't had a problem with taking out its own citizens if it needs to. If there's an insider outsider threat such a program agency or directorate on the forefront of legacy programs would not hesitate twice to neutralize insider outsider threats. Just like whistle-blowers, we know today face reprisals, right? David Grusche's face reprisals. I know individuals who have had pensions threatened with inappropriate stuff on their computers, really disgusting graphic stuff that is just important to think about. And so it just stands to reason if somebody is a direct threat to a program protection structure that they might be taking out. Yeah, sometimes wonder if there's some biological. Like if you want like a full clamp down control on like people who are part of a program. Are there chips you're embedding? Are you giving them shots where you can kind of switch them off later in life? Are there things like. I mean, it's horrible to think about, but do you think some of that stuff is going on? There's one common thread I found and each of these three people had the same thing happen that they kind of answered independently. There's Michael Herrera who observed the. Well, deployed on the USS Denver in Sumatra, Indonesia, experienced a team in all black of operators in a large seemingly reverse-engineered man-made craft. There's Jonathan Wagant and his infamous 1997 crash retrieval encounter. And then there's Roderick Castle who during the Hunter Warrior Advanced Warfighting Experiment in 1997 while he was an AV-8B Harrier Aviation Technician. Basically was ordered to check out some unauthorized flare activity. It saw a massive 200-300-foot triangle in a company black team. He was held at gunpoint. Back in the 90s, there was a huge controversy around anthrax scare and anthrax boosters. Roger Castles specifically had already been given the anthrax vaccine and an anthrax booster. So weird that right after his experience of this, this team and this triangle, likely man may triangle, he's given another booster. Same with way again. Same with Herrera. Anthrax booster. Yeah. What's so weird. What prompted me on this is. Well, you saw some sensitive technology. Now you need to be protected from anthrax, which was a flash in the pan threat to begin with. Who's talking about anthrax? Right. What was interesting is initially I was Roger Castles that said this. He was like, yeah, afterwards, I was given an anthrax booster and then I was talking to my Carrera about his encounter and he said, oh, I was just given an anthrax booster. Unprompted. This was like months after. And this is like a prophylactic where you came across anthrax presumably. I don't know. I mean, defense for it. It's like a COVID booster, but for anthrax. Yeah. And then I made that connection. I was in North Carolina sitting across from Jonathan Wagen, sharing a meal and he's talked about his encounter. I love Jonathan Wagen, by the way, one of the greatest guys I know. And he talks about just completely unprompted, yeah, and afterwards we were given an anthrax booster. Speaking of Jonathan Wagen, I cannot express to you how much I dislike the fellow marine sergeants he was with during his encounter. They threw him under the bus and sold him out. Well, let's get into the core details because you just came out with a video, maybe a couple months ago, a few months ago, that was one of the best, I think, most important, just pure whistleblower testimonies about Jonathan Wagen and what a fascinating story. Yeah. So yeah, tell us about it. I think that can bridge us into how crash retrieval teams work as well. Jonathan Wagen, USMC Lance Corporal 1997 sent Peru Operation Laser Strike, which is a counter-narcotics operation. Narco Plains shoot him down, get drugs out of Columbia, Bolivia, Peru, entering US airspace. He is told at one point that there's a downed friendly or forehand plane, no big deal. So he and a troop of eight to ten Marines, including Sergeant Adkins and Sergeant Allen's trek down to where this aircraft crashed. After a combination of driving and trekking, they encounter a clearing, which is basically a cliff face. There's an enormous, egg-shaped, teardrop-shaped craft embedded in the cliff face. The craft is featuring extensive ballistic damage on the back. Wagen gets us to this day. This was due to a Peruvian Hawkman 23 missile system. There's seemingly a field around the craft. It's kind of silvery metallic, but around the craft there's this swirling field similar to what Dylan Borland said about the lava-like mechanism that was used seemingly to cloak the craft. This was a purplish greenish, like oil on water, the mother of pearl effect. There was a light around the circumference of the craft that was kind of slowing down. And there seemed to be a hatch open with what's appeared to be an arm hanging out with four fingers. This was part of-- Did it look like a human arm? Did it look like a reptile? It was a gray alien. It just looked like an arm hanging out. With four fingers. Yeah. And this was actually one of the things that Stephen Greer cut out of their year 2000 interview. Why did he cut anything out of this guy's testimony? Well, first I thought it was-- he was vindictive against James Fox, you know, our mutual friend and excellent filmmaker with a great upcoming project James Fox. He filmed the Wagant interview for Stephen Greer. And so initially when I found the raw files, which even the raw files on Greer's DPI archive are still chopped up, you can find one part where James Fox asks a question and it quickly cuts. So initially I thought Greer just cut out James Fox's part, but it seems more dubious than that if part of Wagant's testimony was excluded. But that's part for the course for Greer, right? We can think of Brad Sorenson in the 1988 flux liner incident at the Norton Air Force Space Air Show. We're in 1990, Brad Sorenson admitted to aviation, we can space technology, senior editor, Bill Scott. The entire incident was real. Everything happened. The flux liners, the copycat vehicles and Greer and his crony stone walled this interview. So crazy. Yeah. It's if you really want disclosure and you're talking about a guy who, you know, shows up, you know, it was an Edward's Air Force. It was Norton Air Force, close down now near Air Force plant 42. That's right. And then he's shown some back of the house show and then he sees an alien reproduction, three alien reproduction vehicles hovering or whatever and you see video of it. Like that's such an important testimony. And then he's sort of like, you know, it goes dark and he's like, you know, really mean to all the UFO research. He's giving me so many death threats. It's crazy. So then you have Stephen Greer is the one guy who's sitting on like, you know, like really crazy, you know, testimony from him and he, the, what, where is that? Like, do you destroy it or like, I don't, it was, where is the evidence? So I think this was found between 2017 and 2020, 2019 or 2020, okay, okay. One of Greer's cronies, a pretty respected and famous researcher compiled a bunch of documents on this. And I think pride, the interview from Bill Scott and they just him and the Greer team just put this all in a PDF, non-OCR, so non-searchable PDF and just post it on the DPI archive as Norton Air Force Base Internal. So this was supposed to be an internal document that was posted to Greer's public archive. This is like a 200 page PDF and I read through the whole thing because I was doing a, I was absorbing as much McCandalish as much audio associated with it as a written thing from Bill Scott, but there's also handwritten notes between Bill Scott. So they did publish this. No. They didn't publish it. They just made it internal. Yeah. I tried to reach out to Bill Scott, but he had a heart attack. So he's in poor health. Oh, jeez. So I haven't heard from him. I'd like to see that. He's like aviation week. Yeah, it's based technology, senior editor. And of course, I've tried to kind of run a bit of a gambit with Brad saying, hey, I've seen this interview. I know you've seen it. And I just get more death threats, but, you know, but the circling back to weigh-gant because that's, so I think that's so productive in how we can talk about crash retrieval teams. Every now and then, Greer weirdly obfuscates some data, including critical testimony. I mean, the biologics being present at Jonathan Wagant's retrieval encounter is critical. Because as he gets close to the craft, as it's dripping this clear viscous, a syrupy-like liquid, he feels like a bean is communicating to him and his mind telling him not to be scared, but also asking for help, which I can't imagine the type of PTSD that would give a man. A sentient bean, like begging for help, but also trying to calm you down. What did he do? Well, he's getting closer and closer to the craft because he's the only one that gets near it. And then Sergeant Allen and Sergeant Adkins kind of jerk him back to reality, screaming at him, and tell him to, you know, get the heck out of there. Sergeant Allen and Sergeant Adkins, I won't say which one of them, but one of them, I emailed from my UAP girl about gmail.com email. It's, it doesn't have my name or anything like that, asking for comment. And they responded, hello, my full name. So they're trying to be like a, trying to big bro me a little bit, be a little bit intimidating, saying like, I don't know who you are. They do, they doxed you in response. Correct. Correct. So that's not cool. And that's why I don't like them. And they've also thrown them under the bus. One of them specifically said, Oh, no, Jonathan Wagan's just crazy. It's just not true. But the most important part, in my opinion, is when Wagan's and the other Marines lead to clearing, they're immediately intercepted by a, uh, between eight and 12 operators in all black, US Army helmets. That's kind of an important detail. All black, no insignia, no name tags held at gunpoint, whilst these men are being detained to US Army C-H 47 helicopters land. Out of the helicopters come a team in mob gear, mission oriented protective posture, just think hazmat gear. You know, if you think back to the 1965, Kecksburg, Pennsylvania crash, all the witnesses on on C scene said they saw people in what they called moon suits arrive and, uh, but these people are wearing DOE insignia and some of them have DOE range jackets. Wagan tries to resist. He gets the crap beaten out of him and, um, he's taken and, and held in isolation for a period of up to two days after numerous threats of, of, of, that he's going to be killed and all that stuff. But so that crashed retrieval team. That is really important. The people in DOE, uh, that is highly likely the Department of Energy nuclear emergency support team, DOE nest, DOE nest is a DOE NSA and NSA, again, is the DOE semi-autonomous agency, the national nuclear security administration support team. They're responsible for rapid reaction responses to any sort of CBR and E chemical biological, radiological, nuclear, high-yield explosives, specifically dealing with nuclear stuff around the world. Uh, this team has their own private jets, of course, which is also really weird detail. That guy, uh, I talked to you about that has claimed he's been on retrieval teams out of the NTTR has stated for some rapid reaction events they would hop on a little private jet. Hmm. Uh, so the DOE nest has their own private jets. DOE nest derives its authority from where else, the 1954 atomic energy agreement. Hmm. So DOE nest operates under that authority so they can kind of use the same classification systems, um, to do, you know, whatever the heck they want. Uh, so how do they, because I think of OGA, Office of Global Access is being this kind of rapid response team, are they coordinating with DOE or logistics coordinators? Okay. So think about like the NGA as a combat support agency, um, they're, um, them in the NRO, they're providing intelligence, uh, actionable information. So for the CAAs, just the coordinator. So in all likelihood, what, but this is what OGA is under CIA, yeah, and this is before the OGA existed, right? Yeah. But in all likelihood, let's say Jonathan Wagens encounter occurred in 2004, uh, just for a mind exercise. Sure. Sure. Sure. The CIA OGA would have likely contracted the US Army 160th SOAR, nine hawks, uh, specifically first battalion, which is the, uh, US Army's basically helicopter regiment, uh, that supports JSOC operations to utilize their CH-47s for this retrieval operation. Yep. Uh, OGA would have said, Hey, we need this nest team, whether they're nest or whether they're just retrieval operations. operators using Nast and using the 1954 atomic energy agreement as a shield, but we need those guys. And then they would also coagulate and get the tier one adjacent likely US Army Delta, in this case, folks to get to the retrieval scene. So then yeah, what ends up happening to Wagant? So he's basically beat up, he's put an isolation and then he's given it an anthrax shot as you mentioned later. And then he's sent back to Cherry Point. After a while, Sergeant Adkins, Sergeant Allens, get mad at him if they try and talk to him, the Marines treat him like crap. So he uses marijuana to get kicked out of the Marines because it's so hellacious for him. Poor guy, man. So messed up. And you see it in his face, he looks haunted, he looks haunted, yeah. So before he started recording and so forth, he was like trembling. It still affects him deeply to this day to speak about. I can only imagine. Look, it took months to get him on camera, he doesn't, he does not want to be on camera. He lives a private life, he has a beautiful family, he works with rescue dogs a lot, great guy, pure heart, and it's been terrible for him. So that deal we nest though. I think there's a lot of interesting things there because we've talked about special nuclear material, FII, transclassified for nuclear information and now nest. Yeah. I think nest is likely used at a broad and or conist and Oconist outside Conist, Constance, United States retrieval operations, the DOE and slash NNSA employ two other agencies. I think are highly likely involved in UFO retrieval operations or passing recovered UFO materials between US national labs here in the continental United States. This would be DOE SRT, special response team, which is sort of a federal unit, federal protective force that has a rest onsite authority within the US. These are the guys that safeguard nuclear material, these are the guys that safeguard sandia and national labs and then the DOE NSA, NNSA, OST, or Office of Secure Transportation. These are the guys that drive the big rigs that transport the materials. Now, the common thing between all three of these agencies nest SRT and OST, these are not comprised of DOD employees. These are comprised of contractors. All three of them are comprised of contractors. For example, sandia has designed the big rigs that OST uses, but that's not the point. The contractors involved are sandia, Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamos, Ray Theon, and our former good friend, now part of a momentum, EG&G. EG&G, of course, is the company that allegedly hired Bob Lissard to work out at Area 51S. For EG&G was, of course, spearheaded by Donald Kerr, of course, the NRO, and EG&G, one of the senior special projects guys is one of the people, Alfred O'Donnell is one of the individuals who told George and Hap that there was a recovered saucer held at Area 51 adjacent site with live biologics in the 1990s. And this is crazy because Alfred O'Donnell was also Annie Jacobson's source, and she goes on, like, Friedman, and she goes, I was told on his deathbed, Alfred O'Donnell told me, you know, she, that was a big source for her book, Area 51, where she was basically given exclusive early access. First Bob Lissard, nobody really knew anything about Area 51. And she's saying that her source, Alfred O'Donnell, tells her that what did she say exactly about Roswell, that it was these, like, pro, you know, progeria, Mangle twins from Joseph Mengele at the behest of Joseph Stalin. Once it was determined that this was a hoax, and that Stalin was able to get a craft over the United States and it crashed. And it had, you know, people inside of it. They were people that were sort of deformed and meant surgically altered to look like aliens. The United States government decided that it needed to know what on earth that was all about, and if it was possible for us to have the same program. This, according to the source, right, now that source is Al O'Donnell, who is the nuclear weapons engineer, who armed, wired, and fired 186 nuclear weapons, and that's harder to believe than aliens. Yeah, right. To be quite honest. Right. It's listening to George Knapp talk about this. You can tell he's a little bit frustrated because he spent, because he has the same sources here. Yes. And Alfred O'Donnell told him that it's, and he also has, you have fun aliening that source. Of course, George Knapp stated that there was a meeting set up between one of the heads of EG and G, Edgerton, Germanhausen, and Greer, for one of them to meet with him, Dictimato, you know, Dictimato of the, I think he was, he was SSCI, right? He was kind of a charge of probing saps and stuff, and Alfred O'Donnell to talk about recovered UFOs. And this was sometime in the 90s. And when they got to this meeting, the subject of UFOs was off the table. And this was the turning point for Al O'Donnell. He would never speak about it again. And what's really interesting though is that, uh, Al O'Donnell apparently said to George Knapp that in the early 1950s, 1954 to be exact, that the recovered saucer was kind of transferred into area, area 51 adjacent sites. Conventionally, you would think that that is because area 51 was supposedly built in 1954, established in 1954, even though there's strong arguments that underground sites near area 51 existed far before that with the Borax mines. I know the different mind, I think that craft was moved in 1954 because the 1954 atomic energy agreement gave expanded powers to government-owned contractor operated laboratories like San Dia and so forth to house the craft. And thus, 1954 resembles a turning point when DOE, uh, FFRDCs and NNSA, which was established in the year 2000, started to kind of hang on to these materials themselves, especially on the Nevada test site, uh, NTTR, Nevada test and training range. This is a series of photographs in the National Archives ranging from 1972 to, at that time, 1992 before, uh, Martin Marietta purchased San Dia back in 1993, uh, but, and, and now it exists like 2012, but it was, uh, 20,000 plus EG and G Nevada test site and San Dia operations all across the Nevada test site. So many photos of underground stuff, weird computer control room. So that is my prevailing theory that 1954 saw, uh, saw a lot of these sorts of, of projects being moved into government-owned contractor operated hands, which that's further supported by, um, there is a former New Mexico state rep J Andrew Kisner. Hmm. This is like a proto-grush, um, nobody speaks about this and it's insanely interesting. And I can speak about, so 2002 or 2004, second annual crash retrieval conference, Linda Moltenhal says, Hey, I'm going to present this testimony. I personally don't think of her as too credible of a source. Uh, so I want to, but she's broken a lot of stories, right? With some sensationalism sometimes. Sure. I contacted J Andrew Kisner myself to confirm if, if he did this or not, he's still alive. Correct. Wow. Correct. He doesn't really want to talk. Interesting. Which is like most people who have been involved don't really want to talk. They, and he was a congressman or center or he was a, he was a rep for the Mexico. Okay. Okay. And so in 1994, 1995, he conducted a series of interviews with firsthand legacy people all across the board office of Naval research, Air Force, etc, um, and basically starting in 1947, there was some crash craft and of our Bush spearheaded retrieval efforts and so forth. He says all this. Yes. Crazy. Humorous scientific agencies were involved. The AFS WP, which would later become DITRA was involved. And that in the early 1950s, there was a shift in how these craft were held and craft were given over to government owned contractor operated hands to be custodians. Hmm. So that's one of the biggest interesting things in J Andrew Kisner's testimony. That puts a lot of faith in, um, in, in, in my opinion of him, as he talks about this, which comports strongly with, with my idea that. National labs started to take over these materials and housed them in the 1950s. Uh, indeed, uh, uh, J Andrew Kisner allegedly in 1995 told other New Mexico state rep, uh, Stephen Schiff about this, Stephen Schiff launched a giant probe into Roswell and there's a GAO audit and, and, and investigation into Roswell where apparently the Air Force had lost all of their files into Roswell. So that's a really interesting rabbit hole. Yeah. Stephen Schiff, I think, is on record saying like complaining about that. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. It, or like inappropriately destroyed all that good stuff. So crazy. It seems like the mid 1990s has a lot of really weird events that might have had to cause you a legacy programs to reorganize themselves to hide behind this special access program oversight committee, special or senior review group. Makes sense. Interesting. So that was when this reorg happened. Yeah. Okay. 1950s. Okay. And so, yeah, again, we talked about why the national labs would be perfect to house some of these stuff. Um, I've talked about it before. It's another individual that needs to go further vetting, um, because there's some stuff that checks out with his testimony and some stuff that begs more questions, but he has stated he has worked under the Y 12 complex, which houses Oak Ridge on a UFO legacy program that studies the skin of two recovered, uh, non human, uh, saucer craft. Whoa. And this is a current guy that you're in touch with as of 18 months ago. Wow. 18 months, 24 months, like within the last one. And he's saying that that Oak Ridge houses this program that does like, you know, kind of material analysis on, on UFO materials. Yeah. So think, things for the need to be vetted with him. So again, this, you know, if you're listening to this interview, this shouldn't be the takeaway. This should be considered an interesting addendum to the conversation already. Like, hey, maybe this is possibly true, but there's some interesting stuff there, uh, two recovered discs. Um, he states that Miter and Battella, the two primary folks involved with this and that the DOE, OICI office of intelligence and counterintelligence is the, are the people that kind of, um, run the show. Have you tried to stress test what he said or corroborated through independent channels? A lot of it checks out and a lot of a lot, some of him is a little weird. Okay. So I think at the very least he's being used as a limited hangout by people who actually work at the Y 12 complex. Sure. on these stuff, specifically DOE OIC guys. But I do think there's truth to the story that under the Y-12 Complex, there exists this legacy program. What's interesting, he says that this program studies the skin of craft. We've started to hear this a lot with recovered extraterrestrial or non-human craft, skin of craft, why skin of craft? I think there's gonna be a budding conversation in the next couple of years that what is common in UFO craft retrieval, specifically eggs, the egg-shaped craft, whether unmanned or manned, is that there's seemingly layers of skin on the craft. Inner layers and outer layers separating the bulkhead from the outer layer of the craft. My mind is drawn to A, the NTTR operator I spoke of. He spoke about a cracked egg once that he was on retrieval mission four, and there was layers like a Russian nesting doll. There was layers of skin under the craft. I think back to the 1948 testimony of one Albert Bruce Collins who claimed to be a metallurgist who had some exposure to exotic stuff at the University of California Berkeley. This guy further, stuff needs to be, further investigation needs to be done, but he disclosed to Tim Cooper and Leonard Stringfield in 1990 shortly before his death. I think on New Year's Day, 1991 or something like that, but he gave a lot of interesting insights into stuff like Project Twinkle, which was of course a Sandia Bay Sea Division investigation into green fireballs over in New Mexico. Which Lincoln La Paz claimed probably weren't prosaic objects and so forth. - And I think there was some obstruction there as far as Project Twinkle records being shown, because Lincoln La Paz, who is a kind of a University of New Mexico meteor expert, expert not with any UFO background or spooky intelligence background, came to the conclusion that these green fireballs would track plumes of atomic detonations and were happening at atomic sites across the US, and they would turn on and off and they seemed to be intelligently moving around. - Yeah, and then the Air Force recommended that the findings of Project Twinkle not be disclosed because there was no natural explanation for this. - There you go. - And then of course we had the Robertson panel and all that stuff that happened thereafter. But Albert Brooks, Bruce Collins, stated that in 1948 at the University of California Berkeley, he saw a low boy-style trailer that was carrying a recovered vehicle. It was an egg-shaped craft that seemed to be cracked. There seemed to be layers of skin and separated bulkheads. And almost inside a visibly light compartment, sort of like an egg yolk. But that skin, those layers is very intriguing. Everybody including our good friend, one of the best people I know Chris Ramsey is obsessed with the 4chan whistleblower. - Yeah. - I actually think there's a lot of validity to that, and I think that might be legit. But back in 2024, there was another sort of reddit whistleblower testimony that really flew under the radar that I think is worthy of revisiting. I think the title of the post now deleted was just ex-OGA contractor. OGA is not office of global access here. It's government, other government agency implying this guy was probably like an agency contractor and stuff. This guy was in the 24th STS, which is a tier one unit in JSOC from the Air Force. He talks about after his service in the STS, like 16 years or so. He is just doing contracting work for an OGA, probably the CIA or something, and he staged a conist outside the United States. And I'll send you the link for this, 'cause I really recommend people read it. It's a really juicy, really juicy testimony. That doesn't go overboard, which is interesting. And he sees his old truth chief, troop chief. There's a couple C-130s that fly up to the base. It's all Hush Hush. Nobody talks about it. He sees these people just get into US Army CH-47s, likely 160th store for rapid reaction teams. And then no talk about this completely Hush Hush about six to 10 hours later. That team returns and he sees his old troop chief. This is very strange to this testimony, this poster, because the troop chief was just having beers in Virginia, doing a fantasy football draft days prior. The troop chief looks super disturbed, super tired, a little out of it, but won't really say what happened. The poster of this kind of pokes around, what were these guys doing? The term "crash of trouble" came up and he was kind of chewed out, reamed for it. A year later, he meets up with this troop chief and the troop chief kind of opens up and says what had happened. He was on a parallel, not directly JSOC, but a parallel tier one unit that was siloed under its own umbrella authority, not responsible for the traditional Socom channels. That was responsible for crash retrieval of exotic vehicles. In the span of four years, he had only done three retrieval incidents, two of which were completely unknown to him. He had no idea what they were, but this new one really shook him to the core. The team was taken to a retrieval site and there they found an egg embedded in mud. The egg, there was no like brush fire, there was no explosive residue. It seemed like a giant bowling ball had been dropped from space and this egg had landed in. And this large silvery metallic egg, I think a large than the size of a couple SUVs was cracked and inside what else is there but layers of craft seeming like the nesting doll analogy is used. What's interesting is this guy said the air felt soupy. The air felt soupy. We're called when Dylan Borland said that that triangle took off above him at Langley. He felt like charged air, right? So it feels like there's like thunder, it felt like a electricity run through his body or something. Just like Jonathan Wagen, so the air felt heavy as soon as he got in the proximity of the craft. And the guy didn't know what to do. They're just there to secure the LZ, but it's an anomalous vehicle that doesn't seem to be manned or like we like to say SOB souls on board. But it's just a really tame testimony that I encourage people to look at. It comports with what I know about manned, unmanned egg retrievals. It's very interesting. It's so fascinating. Yeah, and you mentioned there's so many places to take this but you mentioned in 2003 the OGA under the CIA gets created, the Office of Global Access. And I think there's a daily mail article that outlines. Yeah, Chris Sharp again, okay, there you go. All over the world, they're kind of keeping their finger on the pulse of UFO crashes. And, you know, I think there's a rumor. And because you mentioned, you know, if this was if the Wagen crash were after 2003, JSOC, JSOC would have been involved and the Army would have been involved. I believe there's a rumor of a dog fight between Lockheed Crash Retrieval Team and a JSOC Crash Retrieval Team in 2004, competing over like trying to retrieve. Yeah, it's very craft. Sentinels of Ether, huh, the Jake Barber Classic. I mean, I've heard that that checks out the details of it and why certain elements in Sentinels of Ether, which was like a Romana Clay written by Jake Barber under a pseudonym, right, to try and trick Dopser in an intriguing play. I think there's details there that are more important. For example, I think the location of Kojame, Mexico is really important. I wouldn't be surprised if there's like. Explain that. Oh, well, just context for the odds, basic context. So Jake Barber, obviously, you know, very important. You know, UFO whistleblower came out earlier this year through Roscoe Thar, me a couple other people and said that he retrieved an egg-shaped craft on this sort of, you know, generic range, sort of, you know, California test range. Did you see this egg? I saw it. Absolutely. What did it look like? It's probably 20 feet plus or minus, I don't know, 10% from my point of view, you know, I was 150 feet from it. I had 150 foot long line that night. And a couple of different instances. Well, I guess one was an egg. One was an, you know, an egg on craft. Said a lot of interesting things. Also clearly was holding back, you know, in a lot of ways. And but one of the interesting things he said is to get, initially, get some information out through Dopser, you know, which is, you know, you need to clear everything you let out through the DOD to let it out. He said he sort of tricked them by writing a sci-fi, you know, book. And I think the first chapter is out. And it's sentinels of ether. Yeah. And a lot of people, you know, a lot of hardcore UFO researchers have speculated on this, you know, first chapter of this book because they think that a lot of details might comport with the truth. Well, the most interesting part to me is that I, I think there's a message there that these retrieval assets, the guys that Wagant encountered, the guys that Roger Castlin countered, and the guys that Michael Herrera countered, are not afraid to conduct blue on blue violence. These will, these guys will kill American servicemen, if need be, for their mission directive. I think that's one of the greater themes there that maybe Jake Barber is trying to bring attention to. If this is, is not a real event, which a variable could be. Additionally, I think there's interesting data there to suggest that, you know, maybe there's an underground US rapid reaction facility in Koyama, Mexico, in the north part of Mexico. And then maybe some of these facilities are built into mountains or built underground. And there's various foliage or various terrain or possibly projections that are used to offuscate these sites. Yeah, well, I mean, look, you have to look now further than like Cheyenne Mountain complex. You know, we have, and then you, you always bring up, you know, the solder, you know, deep underground military bases. You have a great video on this subject. That's not a conspiracy, like under national labs and under sensitive sites all over the US. We have underground facilities. Deep underground military bases absolutely exist. They have been a huge focus of the US, DOD and US Army Corps of Engineers since 1948. When we took a bunch of Nazi scientists, including Xavier Dorsch, head of the TOT organization to work under an air material, command underground, underground laboratory and underground systems project. Deep underground military bases are extremely real. You have to look no further than the Lockheed Hellendale or Northrop Tejon RCS facilities, which were built primarily underground to hide from Soviet, Soviet ISR in our denied airspace. Yeah. These places are built underground. Additionally, if you're housing a UFO, [BLANK_AUDIO] just a conventional SAP or interesting technology or even like a recovered Russian MIG, you're not gonna keep that in a hanger. You're not gonna keep that above ground. You're gonna keep that in an underground installation. So there's numerous studies by the US Army Corps of Engineers to be back to the '50s about supplying these with a nuclear reactor, where to get rid of some of the silt and dig out and where to put the excess dirt. There's data on how to supply years of food and water. There's interesting parallels to the Nazis and like the Reagan-Wormlogger in Poland, which was essentially an underground city with its own functioning train system. This is a very real thing. I think the biggest question is, is there a network of maglev trains or similar things connecting such installations? And I would say that there is a very strong argument that can be made early on. There were possible pneumatic systems that were thought to be implemented in Nazi Germany under the Todd organization that would connect Berlin to France and have a pneumatic train system that would connect the two in like five minutes. There's the 1972 Rand theoretical study, the very high-speed transit system which talks about connecting similar places. There's maglev systems, even Lockheed Martin, was super into maglev stuff in the year 2000s. And then, of course, you can, I start to rationalize this. - Maglev levitating magnets. - Yeah. - Sort of like a high speed bullet train style tech. - And then like tunnel boring machines, TBMs, how these things could be used by the Bureau of Reclamation as off-shoot programs to start coring out these tunnels. - I implore people, go look at those Saint-Dia NTS, Saint-Dia lab photos, and just look at the, how large some of these underground tunnels were caught out under the Nevada Tessite just for experiments, just for various technical experiments. - And so many of these whistleblower testimonies, like a guy you broke, who then we did a show with later as Randy Anderson, talks about being at Naval Service Warfare crane. He's taken down in some elevator, goes deep below, the ground, and then he's taken through a bunch of skiffs until he gets to what is it off-world. Or other off-world technologies division. He's a gauntlet emitting hieroglyphics and a levitating sphere, fascinating. And a lot of stories include that, include going deep underground. It seems like. - What frustrates me about Randy specifically is a lot of people piled on him saying like, oh, and kind of meaning on him, trolling him, saying, why would there be a sign that says off-world technologies division? I'd be remiss if I didn't show you this. - Yeah, at the, at the Dugway Proving Ground. The Dugway Proving Ground is the area of experimental land is larger than the US state of Rhode Island. It's like the NTTR, where it's one of the largest non-contiguous air spaces for special projects in the entire United States. It houses two major range and test facility bases. The Utah Test and Training Range UTTR, the Dugway Proving Ground houses the southern range of the UTTR in the West Desert Test Center out of Army A Tech. By the way, if anybody's listening to who's interested in Battelle, go look at who spearheads the West Desert Test Center, Mr. Ryan W. Harris was a background of working for projects for the Ditra and Battelle. So go start looking at that a little bit. - Interesting. - But at the West Desert. - Battelle co-manages, Dugway Proving Grounds. - They do a lot of work there on CBR and E stuff. - Exactly. - They buy logical stuff. That's why there's so many stories about specifically biologics being held at a Dugway Proving Ground. And speaking of, this is what is, this is in the cafeteria at the West Desert Test Center. And I'll send you that so you can put it in the video. - Yeah, we'll pop it up. - Whoa. - They do this stuff right in your face. - That's so crazy. And this looks so realistic, do. And you got the three fingers. - Yeah. - Really trippy. - So I can't tell if it has, if there's a thumb there, if it's just the three fingers. - Wow. - As far as Dugway goes, there's one guy I've spoken to, and he's in my Dugway video, who's had a first-hand encounter at Dugway Proving Ground. - Really? - Yeah, goes by the name. - First-hand encounter with a being or with a craft. - Undergoing, undergoing various testing mechanisms. So he was a contractor for, oh gosh, the name just gave me, but not like a, not like a Locking Martin, just like a standard contractor that does operations and maintenance at Dugway. And in the Avery section, which is right by the 308th Range Squadron, I wanna say, right by their airstrip at the Dugway Proving Ground, he's doing electrical meter reading and he goes inside a facility and within that facility, which is out in the middle of nowhere on Avery. There's a craft in what's seemingly going in a state of disassembling. At the bottom area of this craft that looks like a symmetrical top across its x-axis, there's a, what seems to be like a panel or a part removed where there's like an inverted cone. That kind of reminds me of the, like the reactor Bob, kind of, Bob was our kind of talks about, but he's immediately held at gunpoint by Inducec personnel and taken to, you know, another area diddle where he's kind of debriefed and threatened. And since that, he met with one of the chief scientists at Dugway. This is a guy who has a very real name. I know the name now and I'm trying to track this guy down, but this is a real person who informed this individual MS of the massive stiff or subterranean facility of Dugway, including the specific entrance, which I'll send you a picture of, which is just west east of Granite Peak, which is also a weird radar raised by the 388th Range Watering and to the northwest of Dugway, German village. It's just a tiny, it's just a tiny little structure out in the middle of nowhere. And apparently, this is an elevator down. If anybody, 'cause it's in Vogue right now, if anybody's watching Stranger Things in the newest season of Stranger Things, where 11 is taken down to the secret lab, the secret facility, it's just like a literal shed in the middle of nowhere in the middle of the desert, similar thing. What's an interesting detail is that for, apparently, for above ground testing, a bunch of portapodes are sometimes moved to this region, super weird detail, because another contractor I spoke to out at Dugway, who was active as recently as 2019 to 2022, I wanna say what we talk about. It's so strange, sometimes in the middle of nowhere in Dugway, there will just be a bunch of random portapodes. So it seems like there's this weird connection, maybe there's above ground testing of derivative technologies or assets that, of course, facilities are brought out for people. This guy, the second contractor, he maintained relationships with a bunch of, quote unquote, graybeards at Dugway. He guessed these guys are Batel, but they don't wear bat. They don't say, "Hello, my name is Jeffrey. I'm from Batel Memorial Institute or Lockheed Martin." One of his, his graybeard babysitter, who would kind of have to walk him through, would always appear fatigued. After sometimes, he'd meet him. And this guy would, when he would appear fatigued, and this person in the front of mine would say, "You know, what happened, why are you so tired?" He would say, "Oh, we had the triangles out again last night." And so this guy was saying that they would stay out all night doing triangle testing. Whoa, crazy. And he trusts this guy. The MS guy who saw the craft, absolutely. The second guy who's a contractor, I don't really have a reason not to trust him yet. He has supplied me with his photo ID badge of his contract, a time at Dougway, showing me direct evidence that he worked out there. I have no reason not to trust that guy. Wow. And Dougway for the basic context for the audience, so it's in Utah, right? And they call it Area 52, and it sort of dubbed that. They call it Area 52, but I don't like when people call it Area 52. Area 52 is to the Tonopotest range. Tonopotest range is literally named Area 52. Oh, interesting. And then, Dougway, are there rumors that some assets were moved from Area 51 to the 90s there? Starting in the 1990s, because there was a large article, it might have been pop sigh or pop mechanics. It was a huge expose on Area 51 and assets might have been moved over to Area 52, this mysterious new place in Dougway. What's interesting about that article is I have some pictures of it in one of my videos. The article has a bunch of pictures of like, I think like either SR71 or F117A Nighthawk, but also has a sticky note on it that says like, "Call Bobby Ray in, men." It's super, it's a super weird meta thing. - Whoa. - But even like Edgar Fouche, whose primary testimony in 1998 revolved around the TR3B talks about, "Hey, you know, a lot of projects were moved out to Dougway, proving out it makes sense, more less high profile." But what's weird to me is that the Nevada Test and Training Range would have better infrastructure to house such programs. - Yeah. - As far as I understand, there's numerous sites across the NTTR that can house craft underground facilities, even helicopters, possibly even hangar bays, built into the side of mountains or floors. - Do you think that some of these defense bases are co-located deliberately with, and this is gonna sound really trippy, but like natural portals or something? And the reason I ask this is because Area 51 itself was formed at the Nevada Test Site, or next to the Nevada Test Site. Nevada Test Site was the site of the most domestic, atomic tests in the early 50s. If you read Robert Hastings UFOs and Nukes, where do UFOs show up most? It's around nuclear sites. All of the first crashes are around either high power radar or nuclear sites. Roswell, site of the largest nuclear stockpile in the US. There's an emergency meeting in 1949. I think killing that Robert Hastings also writes about between basically, I think Army counter intel, Air Force Office of Special Investigations, CIA. They're freaking out around UFOs showing up all over nuclear sites. And then you have the Jake Barber testimony where it's like there's some sort of mental connection, you know, with the UFO. And so, if I were studying UFOs, I would look for places that are weird to begin with like Skinwalker Ranch. Maybe Skinwalker Ranch is like the limited to hang out version of this, you know, and I would put my defense stuff there, and I would try to engage in the weird UFO shit where it's already kind of happening. - Well, correctly, if I'm wrong, didn't check. Barbara, talk about some of the, like, light. Orbs are weird, non-really, physically identifiable crafty to you over the range, would like, almost phase into mountains or like, disappear in rock formations. Yes. And you have Ross Kolthar doing his investigative research at Bradshaw Ranch in Sedona, Arizona. We have all this weird stuff. I think it's like supposedly associated with the university, but you have all these kind of armed guards there, you know, and multiple people in the area see the crafts going into this mountain. The essentials of ether talks about that dude, Jake Barber's book. So I'm wondering if there's this weird co-location of like paranormal stuff is already happening at this place. Let's study it and instantiate it, you know, and, and, and, and how's it in some official defense capacity? Yeah. I think I think there's probably three possibilities and they're all super likely. And they probably all are a thing. You house these sites by already weird locations with activity, you know, maybe if that 4chan whistleblowers to be believed in their places within the Bahamas, that that large hamburger shaped mothership that 3d prints UFOs to spec houses, a gosh, I don't know, maybe they say the Bahamas. I think, yeah, like Bermuda, I think is a area of frequency. Well, gosh, it makes sense to have well, you have magnetic anomalies there. Autech is in the weapons testing, it makes sense to have that there. Yeah. And then that's, that's one thing that's probably true to that's probably true, put these installations in the middle of nowhere so you can bring the triangles out where people are in a round for hundreds of miles and three hide stuff in plain sight. Yeah. Wouldn't be surprised if there are access to stiffs, sapfs that are literally in corporate parks or shopping centers. Interesting. Do you have anything specific there or that you're thinking about? Not specific, I want to talk about, but I just, I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, in the future, if more locations are spoken about that, some of these places are in, like, in plain sight. Do you think there's anything near LAX? Maybe. Well, yeah. Yeah, because it's near like, it's very close to the Antelope Valley and in Los Angeles, there's numerous FFRDCs, numerous locations and DOD defense laboratories. I would not be surprised if there's a large infrastructure underground there. How many UFOs do you think are sitting in hangars across the United States? I don't know. If you looked at what Barbara spoke about before he went public, he would say over his specific range one to two a year, that number seems high for me. It seems, that seems quite high. Maybe he also meant that they were downing derivative vehicles to test their hardness to the dog whistle and the weird or one to two a year might include just ran a material that isn't like the whole craft or intake from other locations that they have, can have the infrastructure to house the craft in there. And how put off, I think, stated a number on Gerogon. I think he literally, like, 12 to 15. I think something like that, I think that's low. That seems a little low to me too. 40 to 50. Okay. Maybe 60 to 100. Because I do think there's validity to the U.S. has constructed offensive weaponry against UFOs. If we look at the Aztec crash, a case U. Chris Ramsey and me also think all think extremely highly of. Yes. One of the prevailing theories is that the the lash up radar network, which was constructed over New Mexico to protect against Soviet bomber attacks, which by the way, J Andrew Kissner spoke about high powered radar facilities, messing with the UFOs in his 1994 disclosures. But one of the prevailing Aztec theories is that these super high powered, really weird radar networks. There might have been high intensive microwave systems that messed with the craft and brought it down. And then in fast forward to 1983, I think there's an argument that can be made that in the strategic defense initiative or Star Wars program under Ronald Reagan, that they lethality and target hardening program or the particle beam weapons program were meant to be space-based systems that utilized microwave weaponry to shoot down UFOs. Well, this was the weirdest part of the Malmgren story that I, you know, again, I hold him in super high a steam and I think there's a lot of weirdness around. I feel like there was a coordinated information operation to kind of take him out, to be honest. They changed his Wikipedia page. Yeah. Yeah, that was ugly. The blog post was like, we asked XYZ person and they hadn't heard of him over and over again, which is like, you're talking about like this knock. Yeah. It was clearly like I, I don't doubt his connections for a second. Right. The guy was connected at extremely levels. He knew a lot of very interesting people and I think he was in a lot of the rooms that he said he was in. Yeah. So I think that was kind of, kind of, you know, BS. So but the weirdest part of Malmgren's testimony, which didn't even occur directly with me, he was apparently, again, final few days on his deathbed, speaking to Pippa, his daughter, and he told her that he had seen an interview with the surviving, or one of the surviving alien beings from Roswell, which is fascinating, like a recorded interview with this being, and that the being suggested that we use like high power radar to take out crafts. Yeah. And then you get into these weird like, are we in some sort of like, are we being used in some sort of like as a proxy in like a larger cosmic war between these extraterrestrial beings? And he was involved, I believe, in the strategic defense initiative. Yeah. Yeah. And if you look at Blue Guild Triple Prime, it was kind of a proto-SDI strategic defense initiative thing that he was doing. It was missile defense. Missile defense was this big issue at the time because he couldn't really kinetically like, you know, we didn't have like interceptors that could like knock into like, you know, like rush Soviet missiles. And so, you know, in that case, it was like this X-ray burst that would like take out the surrounding missiles. Really interesting. There's this like Rand Corporation paper, I think kind of scoping it out before they actually executed on it in 63. And SAIC was up to the, the guilds working on those programs as well for SDI. Yeah. Yeah. That's right for SDI. What's interesting to me is that there are some theories out there that the actual idea for SDI originated with Eisenhower, not Reagan. And then of course, what was established under Eisenhower, well, the NRO, you know, there's a theory that could be constructed that as soon as we got the NRO up there with their taken over the corona satellite program and all sorts of keyhole satellites. They immediately started getting a bunch of imagery and signals intelligence of a bunch of UFOs. Yeah. Now you have Beatrice V.O. Real coming out of this peer-reviewed paper. This is wild to me because it's like, you, academia has nothing to say. And Kudos to, you know, Brian Keating who's actually usually kind of more on the anti-UFO side. But he's like, you know, this has to be contended with you. If Sabina Haas and Felder, a few people with real credentials and, you know, larger platforms saying Beatrice V.O. Real who's Stockholm University, you know, astronomer with actually physics background as well. The Palomar plates, Palomar is this observatory in California and it was the most prominent observatory in use in the 50s between 49 and 57 pre-sputnik going up into space. You have over 100,000 transients, light reflecting objects. It's insane and nobody has a good debunk to this day, you know, and it's peer-reviewed. And is there data that Donald Menzel and the Menzel, the Menzel plates? He was one of the ones kind of stripping some of these plates out. Not only is there like that a rumor that is from a book by Dorit Hofflight who became a respected astronomer in her own right was at Harvard with Donald Menzel and writes about this. And by the way, Donald Menzel not only held extremely high clearances in just about every agency you could, you know, name, he was rumored to be, you know, Majestic 12. I believe Kennedy while he was at Harvard had an interest in like astrophysics. And so he had some, you know, relationship with Don Menzel. But Don Menzel was also head of the, and I always bought this, but the earliest version of NIST. So it's like the bureau of like standards in the US. So it was like, like, you know, the organization that like creates like the, you know, encryption standards and like, you know, like the, you know, decides that we're not going on the metric system, like the kind of the most reality management style job you could think of. And he's the guy caught destroying plates by somebody who's very reputable Dorit Hofflight. So yeah, it's weird. And there were only like, there weren't that many observatories in, you know, at the time that were even functioning. And so I think if you get one other observatory to do like, if it's, if it's pretty correlated, they have transients also from 1949 and 1957 that line up with what Beatrice finds. To me, that's like game over, yeah, literally like you're talking about like light reflecting objects that aren't comments meteorized, you know, meteors asteroids, it's not satellites. Like she's clearly debunked all of that enough to like, you know, average astronomer for them to like peer review it. And like, that seems like a, you know, an easy first order debunk that she's getting around. So this is crazy news. And already the arm charity bunk is to say it was project mogul balloons. Yeah. Is that somebody say that? That's absurd. Yeah. They're just going back to the rosy ball playbook. Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah. That Beatrice is doing the Lord's work right now. It's amazing. Let me ask you this because you were talking about the number of crash that have craft. Yeah. Craft that have crashed. Yeah. If you had to rank, let's just say your top five UFO crash approval events in in favorite most credible. Just yep. Yeah. Most credible. I would say, I would say put Aztec up there for sure, you know, five witnesses. You have the lash up radar system. You have, you know, clear obstruction with Silas Newton and Leo Gabbauer and stuff. So I'd put that up there. I would now put magenta. up there. And I don't know, you know, depending on when this comes out, I'll either tease here now, or this will, will have come out already. But Marconi, who invented the radio, you know, this is like getting like Oppenheimer's, like, you know, offspring saying that he worked on you have us. Marconi's grandson, I was able to track him down and get an interview as a prince, Prince Marconi. And he was like, my grandfather was on cabinet RS33, this cabinet with Mussolini, and they were working on the extraterrestrial issue. In 1933, the Italian government set up this, a group of secret researchers, 33 cabinet, where Marconi was the president, and he cooperated with me, was the vice president, and they made some switches and studies on this phenomenon. Because in 1933, they said that in Baréza in all of Italy, there was some apparitions of so-called UFOs. Imagenta, Italy, or do you know where? Yes, Baréza. It's north-east Italy, north-east. Yes, Baréza. It's north-of-Milan in Lombadi, and between Lombadi and Benician land. He couldn't go much deeper than that, but that's fascinating. You would now have archival and, you know, stuff that corroborates RS33 existing. And, you know, so I think the magenta, and then you have David Graschute, to me, I hold in highest esteem when it comes to UFO whistleblower. So I would put magenta up there now. I really like the 90s Brookhaven crash. I think that's really fast. Yeah, it's a great case. There's a really interesting testimony from a sheriff around that that, you know, I think is very strong. And then I, to me, it pattern matches because they have Cosmatron, the particle accelerator. I think particle accelerators and nuclear seem to attract UFOs. So I think that's up there for me. I would say Kexberg with the Eric Walker, you know, connection, I think is really fascinating. And then as a final one, I don't know. You know, I'm interested in the 1897 one, I don't think there's a ton of evidence. Yeah, I don't think there's a ton of evidence. I mean, that wouldn't be one of my highest kind of conviction ones. I don't know. What would you say beyond beyond that? Definitely Aztec in magenta. I'm rather with you. Kexberg as well. I love the 1974 Kojama to Mexico crash. There's not a ton of supporting evidence, but the story there, if true, is very, very disturbing. Yeah. And also pretty interesting. Just the way that apparently that didn't that report is a CIA directed, like logistics plan, like the OGA would do to gather rapid reaction teams and assets to go retrieve the craft craft as well as providing overhead intelligence of the Mexican team, trying to get the craft. That's a great case. The Mexican team was either killed by a CBR or by a like leak within the craft or the Americans killed them, which is far more likely in my opinion. Yeah. Maybe that ties over in the sentinels of ether. Kill other. There you go. Soldiers in Kojama, Mexico. Wow. Oh, interesting. Yeah. You might have been writing about that cryptically. I'm going to, I'm going to, by the way, I'm going to go with five as Wagen. Yes. Okay. I was going to say way. Yeah. Wagen's up there. Yeah. Wagen's up there. There's a ton of rich stories. Wagen's alive. Like that's right. I'm thinking about like one through four. You don't have anybody alive talking about the retrieve like Wagen. I mean, that seems like super. You have a person who was part of the retrieval. Then, you know, I think the Jake Barber thing is really interesting as well. I just, I want more details. I wish he could, I wish he could have shared more. He said, he's held back more than he said, which is frustrating. But as another one, I'd throw in a Kingman, of course, with Dr. Wang. Oh, yeah. Kingman. Kingman's a great, I would put that up there too. And how Steinman writes about Wang also being involved with the Aztec crash and how Wang is this figure that, you know, can never really track down besides some right path stuff. He died pretty early on. What an, what an incredible. It's, it's, it's, that's an amazing story. So you have, um, Operation Upshot Nahul, not whole, which was a test in 1953. I think it was Nevada test site, right? Or Arizona. It was Arizona. Yes. I thought it was Nevada, but it, the crash ended up occurring in Kingman. I'm pretty sure. I think you're right. Yeah. It occurred just, yeah. It was close. But yeah. Um, and then it was like Arthur Stansell. Yep. Who was, uh, who has records to show him at right pet. Yeah. Right airfield at the time. Yeah. And Operation Upshot Nahul. And Operation Upshot Nahul was there. And they were testing like, I believe part of Operation Upshot Nahul was like how the surrounding environment would get affected by these detonations. It would blast nukes from artillery. Crazy. And it was like surrounding neighborhoods. What happened? Yeah. It was like really crazy. That was about the time we'd, we'd blow up atomic weapons and send in army regiments right after the blast. So nuts, man. So, so, yeah. So he is then like, he's always like blindfolded and he's like, he's like drives like into Kingman, Arizona. And then he sees like a little being in a, in a, in a cot or something. Yeah. It's like a makeshift tent that there's a tiny little brownish being, uh, possibly charred and mangled. Because he was sent in to do a ballistic trajectory analysis. That's right. Because the craft had theoretically impacted at incredible speeds and disrupted much of the surrounding area, but the craft itself wasn't damaged. And the craft itself, I think, looked like two pans, like fused together. And, and so Arthur Stance will get on record at Wright Pat. And then here's what's really interesting. Air Canary Wing is this sort of famed guy who's had a special project at, right, right air field. And I believe he studied, uh, in Vienna with Victor Schalberger. Yes, he did. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. This famous kind of Austrian, you know, naturalist who believe in this impeller propulsion system and out of his own flying saucer designs. And there's this question of like, did Air Canary Wing exist? And you have some evidence that maybe he did exist. Yeah. Oh, yes. He, you know, he, he existed. He existed. If you look through the, the defense technical information center, you can find actual, um, you can find, uh, old engineering documents with Air Canary Wing on it. But we might have a new kind of break in the case of actually finding photos of Air Canary Wing at Wright Paterson back in the 1950s. If we can do that, I, I think that would be get those photos and actually put kind of a face to the name and location and location, that's going to open up new avenues of exploring wing. And I was, I was maybe playing a little coy. I could say definitively he was real because I have a researcher friend who's in touch with his daughter now. Yeah. So like, yeah, he was, he was a real guy. And then he was really interesting about that William Steinman book. Ashtag, he says, um, that Air Canary Wing was a race from the internet. He was the only guy that went Steinman, because Steinman was a great researcher. He would go knocking on everybody's door. And he was trying to figure out what was up with this Air Canary Wing guy. He was head of special projects at Wright Airfield. Then gets moved to Kirtland Air Force Base. Yeah. And he's like, who is this guy? Yeah. Yeah. Now, Sandia. And so he's like, what's going on with this guy? And he keeps getting these slaps on the wrist. Like, don't look at him. Don't look at him. He goes, I figured out he reported to a guy named HAK. Yep. And guess who HAK is? Kissger. Yeah. Sandia Kissinger. And there was like a source that Steinman was talking to had information about wing that went cold on him. Well, he showed up a Maria wing. I believe he, he met his wife. Yeah. And Maria wing, like, yeah, I think it flipped on him or something. Steinman is a treasure. Can we, the Aztec book, how Steinman went to Colorado through court records to find out how Kabaura and Silas Newton were, were unfairly attacked in their court case is astonishing. You know, Silas Newton and Leo Kabaura were convicted of fraud for perpetuating the doodle bug device, which has very real historical significance in anti-Semurine warfare detection world war two by spearheaded by Vannevar Bush, but that even in their court case, there was a similar, not the same device supplanted into the court case to kind of frame them as kooks and frauds. And Steinman did all of this. He went through, he was also a pioneer talking to Eric Walker. He was a pioneer on numerous cases. Numerous cases and even scully, you know, the case behind the flying saucer, like the, you know, kind of original, like archetypal UFO book that outlines this kind of Aztec crash. He was trusted with a lot of like celebrity sort of like really sensitive information. Yeah. And so whoever Dr. G was this sort of like, you know, consortium of scientists. Yeah, exactly. All of whom worked on anti-Semurine programs under Vannevar Bush. So wild. So wild. Yeah. Scott and Suzanne Ramsey have really, they deserve all the credit for digging up this like kind of like short list of like eight to nine scientists that likely are being represented in the pseudonym Dr. G. Yeah. And they're getting in touch with with Silas Newton. Silas Newton, by the way, was worth, I don't know if you know this, 20 million dollars at the time. Really rich oil man. Yeah. So that's like a few hundred million now. Yeah. And pro golfer too. I didn't know that. That's like a pro or semi pro golfer. So no reason to lie about, you know, no reason to con anybody with the doodle bug. No reason to lie about a UFO crash like. But also in their court case, Gabawar and Newton summoned multiple witnesses who spoke to the doodle bugs efficacy and finding oil deposits under their system. I can't remember the exact acronym. I think it was like map or something, but like a magnetic resonance thing to to detect detect cavities underground that they actually found success with. Yeah. Interesting. Well, I know he was really interested in magnetism. Yes. Yes. And and Silas Newton and his diaries would talk about Wilbur B Smith Canadian radio engineer who spearheaded Canada's first project on UFOs who was told by Robert Sarbacher, you know, consultant to the defense research boards, spearheaded by Vannevarbush that UFOs existed. Their modus operandi was unknown, but efforts were going under Vannevarbush to study them. And it was the most highly kept secret in the United States. United States government classified even higher than the Manhattan Project. All these sort of interconnected things that are so interesting. - So interesting. I think, yeah, I wonder if one of these people, you know, like Starbucks or has a son, you know, I wonder if we can get in touch with them. - I'd like to, I always try and talk to people's kids, like I've tried to get in contact with Dr. Eric Walker's kids. - Yeah. - Just, no avail, don't hear anything. - So, what are all of the locations in the US that you think house UFOs? - So it seems like if we're looking at the continental United States, there's a big divide, right? There's the west of the country, which has lower population density, which seems more suitable to RDT and E work. Research development test evaluation, you have massive ranges, Dugway and then about a test and training range on which you could test derivative technologies. If we're looking out east, of course, we talked about the out-tech Atlantic undersea test and evaluation command, which is a Navy major range and test facility base, Patuxent River, as well. I think whistleblower Matthew Brown talked about a Mentum hangers at Patuxent River housing some anomalous stuff and remember EG and G eventually transitioned into Patuxent River. - Wasn't Sal Pais also Pax River? - Yeah, he was at Pax River when he filed his patents. - Yeah, and his patents seem like how a UFO might work. - Yeah, like an internal mass reduction, triangular craft. Yeah, that's weird. And with Matthew Brown, I'm not sure. I agree with him about a Mentum hangers. Part of what I have come to strongly believe and would contest with that statement is, I think the owners of the hangers are FFRDCs, they're the ones who managed it. - Interesting. - It might or hanger, yes. This is part of a theory I have about why the Conan Blue Peace app failed. I think there's a very strict chain of command of people say legacy programs have no oversight. I disagree completely. I think they have alternative oversight that is extremely strictly managed. And I don't think contractors are necessarily allowed to have hangers story and craft. I think it is the FFRDCs, 'cause it's that go-ko government-operated government-owned contractor-operated method that if crap really hits the fan, the USG can take possession of it if it needs to. And you wouldn't think the DOD or IC would allow technologies and craft of unknown origins to sit in contractor hands uncontested. But so Pax River, I'd imagine, Miter has quite a bit of involvement out there in Pax River. The crown jewel of out east is Crystal City in Virginia. There was one firsthand legacy guy, a friend of mine, I was speaking to once and he said that, the answer to most of what you're looking for is in Crystal City, Virginia. - Really? - Crystal City houses eight of 10 of the US's biggest defense contractors, numerous FFRDCs. - This Crystal City in Arlington or? - Yeah, near Arlington. And then of course you got that chantilly region with the NRO headquarters and SCIC headquarters and all that, but I imagine Crystal City is likely where I guess the lifeblood of legacy programs is executed, the framework, the agreements, what contractors are rotated through, what programs are rotated through, where a lot of the bigot list accesses is handled. - Isn't John Peterson based out there? The kind of Arlington Institute. - Yeah, yeah, futuristic studies or whatever. - Of course BDM McLean was out there where the advanced theoretical physics working group was held. - Interesting. So that's where that group was with the help put off and Oki Shion and kind of looking into UFS. - And then under Washington DC, the Pentagon, I have reason to believe there's a very large underground facility, not the NMCC. The National Something Command Center, the NMCC, it's not that, it's a massive facility deep beneath the Pentagon that likely houses some sort of very clandestine office that at least in years past would manually process read-on access to usaps. We're placed deep under the Pentagon. There's some interesting data to confirm that it's existence, but of course it's still contested out. And then, of course, lastly, we have the Y-12 Complex in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, which, hey, Sean Kirkpatrick, why did you run to Oak Ridge after you fled from Arrow? Why did your position, which was like, director for intelligence programs at Oak Ridge? Why, something similar to that, why was that pulled off their page? And why in 2025 has Sean Kirkpatrick's LLC non-linear solution subcontracting, subcontracting under MIDER for US Spacecom? - Yeah, but it's so clear that Arrow was basically counter-induced. - Oh, absolutely. And Jim Likatsky sort of said this on this last weaponized podcast, but it's like, I mean, I think Glenn Gaffney was the director of science and technology for the CIA, who was on the board of Arrow, like, maybe it still be for all I know, you know? It's sort of, yeah, like the Carlisle group or Ronald Multree of the Carlisle group help and set up Arrow and he and Sean Kirkpatrick are kind of smirkin' at each other saying there's nothing to you. - And it's being of somebody scrubbing their resume, you pointed this out in a great video. Ronald Multree, basically created the auspices under which Arrow was created. Also was a board director of Batel Memorial Institute and deleted that off his LinkedIn, scrubbed it. - Scrubbed it and part of the Carlisle group. - Yeah, that's right. - I think, don't quote me on it, but I'm almost positive he was also part of MIDER. - That's crazy. - MIDER will show up everywhere and anywhere. With Sean Kirkpatrick, I'm not sure if he had exposure to legacy programs before his work at Arrow. One could probably argue with his positions in Spacecom and with intelligence he might have been exposed to programs of Minter, SIG, and satellites and overhead collection platforms actually collecting UFOs. There's a big misconception there by the way. People think that overhead satellites, NRO satellites are just picking up live feeds of UFOs. No, this stuff is all parsed into data. All the data is transmitted from the satellites electronically. So a program like Immaculate Constellation or a legacy program satellite, because Immaculate Constellation isn't a legacy program. It was a reactionary USAP established in 2017 would clip out data that would probably depict anomalies like a UFO and sequester it into MCOM or another legacy program site. So who knows if Sean Kirkpatrick had previous exposure to UFO legacy programs, but a strong argument could be made that whilst he was head of Arrow, he was retroactively briefed into various aspects of legacy programs so he would know what to lie about and they always talk about it. - Yeah, and I think the larger point is like, there's just such a conflict of interest. Like if you have some independent review board like for the people of the US around whether there is non-human intelligence any of this stuff exists, don't pick the guy who at 17 won an award from the DOE from the Department of Energy at Brookhaven National Labs. And ever since has been doing contract work in that area, like pick somebody who's gonna be impartial. - Senior Research Scientist to SAIC too. - Yeah, there you go. - And a row, specifically I think back to then you must ask the question, what did Arrow lie about in that testimony? One specific example we know for a fact that was lied about in the Arrow Historical Report volume one was Michael Herrera's testimony. We actually pride his MFR from Arrow, his member random for record because the Arrow Historical Report said Herrera spoke about an extraterrestrial spacecraft and US special forces neither of which he spoke about. So if Sean Kirkpatrick was retroactively briefed into parts of legacy programs just to know enough to obfuscate the report, that means if he lied about Herrera's testimony was, does he have knowledge of a direct action crash-trivial personnel? - Interesting. Yeah. And you have pictures of him in like a meeting with Brandon Fugel is giving like-- - Oh, the one with the-- - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Weird kind of look over his shoulder at the guy who's taking the photo of him. And so clearly he was being briefed on some of this stuff earlier than he likes to admit. - And anybody who talks to him says he's awful. - Yeah, he's pregnant. - And he seems like he just, you know, you mentioned this as well in your video. He will adamantly say extraterrestrial. He will never say nonhuman. Where, oh yeah, maybe we don't have a smoking gun that these things are from another specific planet. - Yeah, remember that David Grush b-roll footage with Ross Colthart when he speaks about biologic. He says presumably extraterrestrial, but not a for sure confirmation. - That's why they say non-presumably extraterrestrial but not for sure. - Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's hard to know. I think maybe the biggest misconception of all in this whole disclosure conversation is the idea that the government has a monopoly on metaphysical truth. Like they have, there's somebody there who like has this core theory of how the world works that is way more accurate than somebody on the outside. I think they have a ton of asymmetric data on this issue for sure. And we are, there's a lot of it is worthy of disclosure and this needs to be, you know, outside of stuff that's like extremely, you know, like weaponizable at like low costs or whatever. Like everything else should be like completely disclosed. It's the nature of reality. But like we would still have to piece together the nature of reality. I don't think the government's sitting on that. - No, it seems like they're as David Grushes, asymmetrical warfare advantages and futileistic dominance. - Yes. - They're not out there philosophizing as to like the larger truths of these beings. As being a Shankar Patrick, I'm reminded to when Susan Goe was asked if by a FOIA researcher or somebody, if they could amend her statement about no extraterrestrials to include nonhuman intelligence, to which she said, no, you absolutely cannot amend my statement to include, we have no evidence of nonhuman intelligence. But a piece of work, that's crazy. - The one that controls the lease of Shankar Patrick. - Well, if that's not a tell, I don't know what it is. Like, that's crazy. That shows a lot of insecurity. - Right. But we were talking about facilities. - Here she ran psi-op stuff. - Yeah, she wrote papers on psi-ops. Just like Shankar Patrick wrote papers on influence of. people in like social networks and stuff. - It's like social engineering. - Yeah, just like arrow-hired sand corp, which specializes in insider threat protection and whistleblower leaks. Tim Phillips went blabbering on a podcast saying sand corp was hired to connect arrow to subject matter experts. That's not in sand corp scope of operations. So I'm not sure I believe that, but yeah, arrow was doing all sorts of dubious activities. - Don't you find yourself caught those sometimes between these obfuscators of truth who are clearly bad actors? Like everybody, we're just, we just mentioned clearly a bad actor. And then some people on the pro-UFO side who also seem like they're at times bad actors. And so it's like this, you're like flinked by like bad vibes. - It's a minefield. - It's a minefield. And then you ask the question, like are we being led down this path where like the whole framework of how we're thinking about this is like messed up because you clearly do have bad actors on both sides. - I think so. - Yeah, control disclosure, that's why. Like if there's one person who's word I would take at face value would be David Grush. - Yeah. - He does not seem to be giving some sort of limited disclosure. He seems watching anything with him. You can get a very clear depiction of what his character is and how his brain operates. And you can kind of infer exactly why he's doing what he's doing at great personal cost to himself. Kind of directly answering as much as he possibly can, speaking on all aspects of the subject, non-human intelligence, presumably extraterrestrial, how these programs are funded, it's so forth. - Well, I think on the per David Grush, most of the whistleblowers, most of them, and there's probably some exceptions are good actors. - Yeah. - Because the whistleblowers, like the guys, especially who've experienced a thing or like haplessly were tasked to investigate a thing like David Grush, or they, you know, they like fell into like, you know, seeing things that they couldn't look away from. - Or folks on the SSCI, I would put in that category as well. Listen, it's like committee on intelligence who are tasked with investigating this. - Absolutely, people like Kirk McConnell and some other staffers and yeah, you know, definitely knew a lot about these things and provided a real pipeline from like a C programs to Congress so that these guys could show up and skips and stuff. He's for sure. And then at the same time, they're all sorts of weird, you know, guys who like, they pop up in like the pro-UFO world, and then they're also doing some other sketchy stuff in Intel world and you're like, yeah. - Yeah, limited disclosure, promising researchers and folks various things and then doing other things. - Yeah. - It's just, it's kind of a mess. - It's a mess and all I'm saying is it's like, I think it's easy to go after the obfuscating guys at hominem and then it's harder to go after the pro guys at hominem because like, I think both of us are like pro-disclosure. - Yes. - And so I'm like, if you're gonna be like a weirdo and like other aspects of your life but you're like, you're pushing like, like the nature of reality are the stakes. I don't fucking care about your like other weird jet. I'm not gonna get caught up in that because I'm gonna get distracted from the truth if I get caught up in that. - Well, the thing about managing, like I think Carl Nell, you know, who's always been, you know, to me a good guy and like my, I've enjoyed my interactions with him, I find him to be extremely intellectually just brilliant but he just went on a podcast and he said disclosure is dead. - I guess the possible that I've got is that this recent cycle of disclosure that we might say started in 2017 with the Navy videos and Luel Zondo coming out and as a whistleblower making various assertions that that cycle of disclosure is effectively ended with the failure to pass the UAP Disclosure Act and with sort of the fourth or third in the series of hearings on the topic that I think increasingly have moved the media less and less. - And I think you are gonna end up there if you attempt to do the managed disclosure thing is the most siss of fee and exercise and like I think maybe the most telling thing in the not this last congressional testimony with Dylan Borland, but the one before that the closed one with like Elizondo Avi Lobe and Eric Davis. Eric Davis said the NHI themselves are controlling disclosure. - Yeah. - Which is this logical fallacy. Like how do you control disclosure in a world where those superior beings exist? They're obviously gonna be managing the process. - Boy that event was a mess. Was it not? That was a total mess. - With a crop circle or whatever. - Gosh, yeah and yeah speaking of Eric Davis it's the same thing. I think he's provided some extremely valuable intelligence. I think the fundamental facts of the Wilson Davis Memor are very true in the sense that Thomas Wilson was denied access into legacy programs while Deputy Director of the DIA. But then like I believe that Eric Davis has lied to my face about the success of derivative technologies and alien reproduction vehicles. I think he has as close as we are now told me outright fallacies about that and whether it's he's just too proud to admit that he doesn't understand the science or more likely in my opinion. It's a classic program protection strategy. It seems like with a lot of the most famous characters in this space, their disclosures come with strings attached or some things pocketed away or compartmentalized or half true or intruths. - It's interesting also how like certain cases are a lot. Like with Eric Davis he seems like I talked to him about the Aztec crash. He's just so dogmatically opposed to that crash. - Right. - And if you look at that with an open mind and first principles in fact, I think the Wikipedia is still Aztec crash hopes. It is literally in the name. And but then if you look at it with an open mind you meet Scott and Suzanne Ramsey who are these really amazing people in North Carolina independent researchers who have small business and have poured, I want to say $600,000 plus into this investigation over decades and they have so much evidence. I mean I went to the crash site with them. This thing happened. There's something happened there. And I don't know if it's dogmatism on Eric Davis's part. I don't know where he's coming from or what the deal is. But then conversely he also is very pro the 1950 for Del Rio Texas crash incident. Which that's a huge can of worms because there's two crashes. They're 1955 Robert Willinham in Del Rio, Texas. And the 1954 Del Rio crash, which is actually L. Indio slash Guerrero, Texas, Mexico. Which is only really talked about in the Eisenhower briefing document of the Majestic 12 documents. So he'll kind of a dogmatically shoot down Aztec but support a very convoluted case without much evidence to support or even investigate or chew into it. - Yeah, it's tough. I mean it's funny. You got me thinking when you asked my top five crashes like the confidence level drops off a ton for me after maybe number seven or eight or something because you have all these like Leonard Schringfield cases with like it's just pseudonyms. And you're like, I don't know, you know, like even the Lawrence Livermore thing you mentioned like, you know, maybe that has a name attached to it in a guy in 1990 or one or whatever that came out. But it's, some of these crashes just feel like really, like I, you know, the magenta thing. I now have Marconi's grandson but we have no living witnesses in this crash. It's just, it's tough with some of these things. - It's the same thing with Ryan Wood's excellent book, Magic Eyes Only. There's really intriguing cases that, you know, likely have some validity to them but there's not enough to really sift through and chew through. There's not enough people to speak to. There's not enough named characters. I mean, I'm sure there's quite a few crash retrievals in Ryan Wood's book, Magic Eyes Only, that are legit. There's just not enough information to parse through or form a strong opinion on. - Yeah, exactly, it's tough. What do you think, like, this feels like it can't be containable over a long enough period of time? Like, I guess this brings like this other, like, kind of more, like, deeper ontological question of like, are there like reality gatekeepers? Like, where these crashes happen? And like, okay, maybe we have some immaculate constellation. The NRO has like, you know, first, first, first access, you know, eyes on all this stuff. And then maybe you have some like, OGA style thing with through the CIA, maybe it's not OGA, you know, anymore. But like, you know, some rapid response teams or whatever. Like, say you have all of that. You would still expect some really hard concrete proof in the form of materials ending up in civilian hands. Like, at some point soon, you know? - Yeah. - So, yeah. - I would hope so. I don't know how likely it would be that a bunch of civilians are going to come upon a crash retrieval, you know? Maybe most crash retrieval has occurred today because the crafter shot down. - Do you think that's the case? - I think that it's likely, many of them are. But then there's also like the donation hypothesis of craft left for people and why are those left in the middle of the desert and so forth. And then maritime crash retrieval, that only, you know, like the Baltic Sea anomaly if that's a craft that only like well-equipped, well-funded organizations are going to be able to retrieve. And I genuinely think that since the 1960, the NRO and other combat support agencies like the NGA and then direct action elements like tier one, or tier one adjacent assets and CIA elements and all sorts of intelligence and DOD elements will be first on the scene. Even halfway across the world. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - If there's a crash in India, in the mountains of India, I think the US is going to get there for any sort of, you know, local authorities. or local onsite personnel. - Do you think, like, why do you think the US is so far ahead of other countries when it comes to disclosure? Like, it feels like Russia, China have said very little about this stuff. Is it just kind of an open system closed system? - China will just kill you. - Right. - And also like, I think that the way-- - But why isn't that, 'cause like, more institutional components of the United States have started to push disclosure? - Yeah. - Why is there no one in China being like, you know, maybe this should actually be good for us to have some sort of like limited disclosure? - Maybe we're talking about the managed disclosure people in the US, why aren't there quite a lot of-- - Maybe they're still on the back foot. - Maybe they're still trying to adapt reverse engineer technologies to their ISR platforms in tonight airspace. Maybe they know because of just how spine and infiltration works that the US is far more advanced. So if they open up the can of worms, and we have a global disclosure, sure, Russia may have a couple of tic-tacs up in their mountains and China may have some recovered vehicles and made some progress and adapting electro-optic cloaking, but they know that we are the big baddies. And if the whole can of worms is open, we are positioned as the global superpower for the next 10,000 years. - Interesting. - Yeah. - It stands to reason if these countries know they're on the back foot, which of course they would be because there's been a lot of political instability in Russia and China over the years without the same sort of access and superpower leading that we have had. I mean, for example, the US has been the big, bad, political superpower. So, you know, with five eyes retrieval groups, we have elements all over the world where if a craft crashes, we probably get first dibs. - Yeah. - Do you think, you know, 'cause you could make a flip side argument to that, which is like you have a strong men like Putin and G, G named himself dictator for life, I think in 2016 or something, where there's this long planning element, this long time horizon ability to make decisions, you know, I think in China, it's like reinstate the sort of celestial empire in 2049, you know, and, you know, obviously there are plans to probably overtake Taiwan and like the next few years, maybe, and so in the US, you have like, you know, this kind of, you know, temporary, this temp, you know, that gets into office. Maybe they get two terms if they're lucky or whatever. So, do you think, you know, there's John Alexander, who's in and around UFO lore, like, you know, up to his neck? And he, you know, he said that the Majestic 12, you know, and like the elite governance systems around UFOs are kind of like almost euphemisms for continuity of government programs. So this idea that, you know, I think in Eisenhower's time, you had the 5412 committee, which is this interagency coordination committee to kind of allow for plausible deniability if the president wanted some dirty work done that he didn't want to be involved with. That turned into, I believe, the 303 committee, the committee of 40. Do you think, and then we hear about people like Dick Cheney, Henry Kissinger, these types who like, if there was a government behind the government, those guys would be involved in that government. Like, Kissinger was doing all sorts of rogue shit, was playing Nixon like a fiddle. You could say the same thing with Cheney, V's of ebush in American foreign policy. Do you think there's a government behind our government doing the long time horizon planning on the UFO issue? Probably because in the way legacy programs work, it's a parallel chain of command and parallel chain of oversight that exists right next to, you know, the executive branch, possibly partly within the executive branch within US, DOD, IC systems, self-funded intelligence agencies. They can do what they want. They don't adhere to the whims of the president. So by all intents and purposes, these, these, you know, if you look at Catherine Austin Fitz talking about 17 to 21 trillion dollars embedded in the US black budget, just since like the 1990s alone, these, the legacy programs are better funded, better technology, more powerful than the United States government. So this essentially is a shadow government in like a deep state for all intents and purposes. And maybe that is also why Russia and China are far behind us on the topic. There seems to be far more, a far more homogenous group within them, you know, Xi Jinping and Putin are like the modelists of those countries. They are, those two are probably spearheading their own respective countries, reverse engineering and retrieval programs. The US, I mean, our government is kind of on its heels against this parallel system that can control these programs, that can harness US assets whenever it wants in theater or at home can fire on other blue assets and can fund itself better and faster and can infiltrate anywhere and can deploy men with arms. It's just, it's a very, it's very disturbing the implications of the power of legacy programs. Yeah. So we mentioned a lot of these places that probably house UFOs and you talk about historical corroboration for that. What about places in the United States that house alien bodies? Are you confident in any of those locations? Probably by its description, that would probably be Dougway. Okay. That would probably be one of the biggest places, as well as maybe like Fort Dietrich, Maryland, wherever there's betel and some of betels like biological, focused FFRDCs. I can't remember the acronyms right now, but wherever betel is located, I would highly believe that these are the places that where bodies are stored, you know? Historically, bodies were kept on ice at right patterns and flown from Roswell, but with the evolution of legacy programs, there are probably, there are, which is very scary to think about. There are probably laboratories that house to cease non-human biologics. Are you in touch with anybody who has seen an alien body? Yeah. And what do they say about the bodies? Well, and are they cryonically frozen? Or do you like, these people weren't like abducted? They're like seen in a government context. Like these bodies are being stored. Yeah. What are we, or during a crash? What always comes up is the gray aliens. It's like the wrap around eyes, almond-shaped heads, large black eyes, gray, tan, brownish skin. That's the common thread. Specifically in an egg. Yep. In a manned egg that somebody was present for a retrieval for. So what about not on a retrieval? What about these bodies stored in military facilities? Yeah, place out in California. Oh. An unnamed place. A place that doesn't have its own designation. I don't even know who the heck runs it. Well. Like one of those in plain sight things and like, you know, corporate. Can you say where? I'm not sure exactly where SoCal region, not Antelope Valley, but Antelope Valley probably deals with tech more, but. And do you feel confident in this whistle blow or not whistle blow, or this person who's contacted you? Yeah. Yeah. That's the person I would like stake my entire rep on. Can you say anything high level about them? They don't want to be talked about. Okay. And I got to respect that. Sure, sure. Did you get in touch with them? Or did they get in touch with you? I got in touch with them. This person's a personal hero to me, and I just got a. Okay. But they don't want to be talked about. Yeah, yes. Well, it's a good sign that you're not, you know, I think you have to be skeptical if somebody inbound hits you up more than if you reach out. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. 95% of the people I speak to, I have sought them out. That person who I've talked to you about that was on a crash retrieval team or claim they have, I spent a year trying to track them down. Wow. And they do not want to be contacted. It takes months and months to form a relationship with these people. I know it's a good sign when I contact them. And I just. I'm usually really upfront with people. And they just say, how did you get my name? Who are you and stop talking to me? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, it's like, they're not denying the claims. You know, they're clearly like, they know they're. They were involved. There's a crazy shit. A lot of them are smart, and at first we'll say like, I have no knowledge or ex, but like what you would expect to find on the terms and conditions on an agreement for an Apple product. I have no knowledge of extraterrestrials. I have not seen bodies nor have I seen craft. I have not been to military installations or disclosed unauthorized disclosures. Yeah. This is kind of a crazy question. And maybe this is self-defeating for me, but I feel like it's an important question to ask because it's hard for me to comment on my own stuff. I'm probably biased somewhat. And, you know, I want to respect anybody that comes on the show. Who do you think is the least believable person that's come on my show? Oh, that's a good question. 'Cause I can ask, you can gas me up all day, but I want you to, I want you to straw man. Let's chew through that actually. 'Cause the top three best would be Grush, Malmgren, and Dan Sherman. Those are the three bests. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ah. Okay, I'm trying to think. Who would be the least? (laughing) I'm just trying to think who has the most grand claims without, 'cause I'm trying to parse things into, like if they have testimony. I mean, one of them that's just kind of hard to even buy into, just 'cause he's so matter of fact is Charles Hall. Yeah. But that's also partly because it can be difficult to listen to like the droning on a lot of stuff for hours. I'm gosh, you weren't there, but I know. Yeah, that's it. Top four Beatrice as well as up there. Okay. Beatrice because, you know, her, hers is so scientifically backed and. Yeah, yeah. Her research is so tough. So top four, as far as her testimony. Yeah, yeah, yeah, excellent. Yeah, she's amazing. A lot of gosh, I'm trying to think who else? Of course, I'm also super partial to Randy. Just 'cause I, I'm the one that he has a human and I like him very much. Yep. I'm very partial to Graham Hancock, just because I like his work outside of the space. - Yeah, I love Graham. A classic, it's not an interview, the T. Thompson Brown. - Oh yeah, it's a classic. - That's like, I'm like, I'm as high-conviction as anything on that stuff. I love that. - Let me see, Kirk, oh. - Yeah, okay, because he bullied you, Steven Greer. I completely, that's a great episode. It's interesting that he bullied you. - So the weird thing with anybody, there are very few people, I think you're making this point kind of, who are like fully full of shit. 'Cause even Greer has all sorts of personality issues. You know, and like, he's so much ego, and like, what I wanna be stuck in an elevator with that guy? No, I wouldn't. But, you can't throw the baby out with the bath water. He's sitting on a lot of interesting information, and anecdotes, like he was, before you, a lot of these guys kind of, you know, sitting in the black and a lot of these programs, didn't have anywhere to go, and they went to him. - I look at Greer, almost like an Anakin Skywalker-type character. - Yep, he gave himself to the dark side by believing in his own theories instead of analyzing witness testimony to then burn so many people, and expose so many people, and hurt so many people, what he started off with, I think was incredibly noble intentions and true. Yeah, I mean, that's a good point. Everyone's testimony, I got to kind of look at and be interested. I think the lowest credibility side of firsthand witness encounters right now for me is probably Charles Hall, just because, it's hard for me to sit through and parse that story. - Yeah, that was a tough one. I mean, I sat through, that was even longer than we discussed, but I wanted to make it digestible for the audience, and it was, I was like, this is so like, he would just go on. I mean, at one point he goes, and I hurt my knee, and then the tall whites flew me from area 51 to area 52, and then area 53, and I was like, you got, your knee got hurt, and it was used to like, like a hella vacuate you out of like the range you were at. - After I thought I'd broken my knee cap, and then I tealed up, there was an X morning when they came down to get me and take me up to their base at area 54, area 53, to see if I needed a knee surgery on my knee. - And it was in tall whites? - Yeah, only, and when I got up to the American generals were there, and medical people were up there too, and I didn't, I just bruised it. - Maybe it's similar to like a Jason Sands type story, where there's an initial exposure that's interesting, that there's some, something there, and then they just continue to expand on it where the story kind of gets out of control. - I don't think you can ease it, I mean, 'cause there are also people online saying like, he faked, he was not in the Air Force. - Right. - But BS, he wasn't in the Air Force, and I have the right, you have his DD214, you have certificates and stuff, like he was definitely in the Air Force. And so, and I think he was a weather observer, and I think he was based at area 51. - Yeah. - And then, and then beyond that, yeah, it's like hard for me to believe, he was like hanging out with these beings for as long, but I mean, there's clearly, he's very neurodivergent, clearly. So it's tough, it's tough. You know, my point being, I would agree with you on that, but it's also pretty hard to definitively write him off. - Right. - It's like, you know, and there are people online trying to do that. And I'm like, you can't do that either. You have to contend with the, you know? - It's just, they seem a little beyond belief to me. - Yeah, what's frustrating is, if he had encounters with beings on area 51, and that was the extent of it, right? And maybe something like Korsos said in his manuscript, we encountered a trapped being who said, hey, lower the radar so we can get out of here. There'd be more believable, but when, yeah, I know the beings. I hung out with them, they flew around. That's when it starts to get-- - Yeah, names for all of them, the teacher, and a range for hair. - Who knows, maybe he was exposed to them and just kind of got carried away? - Well, what I use mentioned Sherman is one of the top ones. Sherman to me, couldn't have been more of a, you know, kind of opposite vibe of Charles Hall. Charles Hall was like, too detailed. Like he had an answer for everything. I asked him random stuff about, you know, from physics to like their communication patterns, their dialect, like everything, the books they read, they read books, apparently they read it, like all these things. But they weren't interested in the books on Einstein, because they clearly had better physics or what. I was like, crazy stuff like that. Sherman, she, to me, pattern matched so much to somebody telling the truth, because I would tell him like open source stuff that would support his testimony. You know, I'd be like, you know, this guy, no erotic, actually foyered. You know, this independent researcher, foyered project preserve destiny. And the foyer was sent to the Air Force and the Air Force forwarded it to the NSA. Basically, which if we can confirm his name wasn't mentioned, like that's kind of a smoking gun that this program existed under the purview of the NSA. So, and he goes, oh yeah, cool. He goes, you did that, great. Like he didn't give a f, you didn't care at all. And it was, to me, I'm like, oh, this guy's so comfortable in his own, like he knows what happened to him. He's not trying to signal anything. He's the opposite of a grier who's constant. There's so much bluster. He doesn't have an answer for everything. Doesn't have an answer for everything, yeah. What, you and I have a mutual friend who has had decades of experience in electronics intelligence. You know, he sat both of us down separately and we talked both, we had both, we, you know, we didn't know we had both spoken of him until yesterday. But, and I think we can say his name 'cause he's on Twitter supporting him. - Oh, okay, yeah. - Okay, Dan Howe. - Yes. - Yes. I talked to him at Seoul and he, you know, we were talking about Project Preserve Destiny. And he sat me down and talked to me for a very long time about how Dan Sherman's discussion of various Elon systems and knowledge of Elon systems and process of Elon's electronic intelligence is just beautifully on the money. And like, just a beyond reasonable casual guy. And would admit, would say, you know, I think the details might be fuzzy here and I might have gotten that a little bit wrong or whatever and it's like you try remembering something, you know, moment by moment that happened you 30 plus years ago. Good luck. - That's like Wagant 97 if he doesn't remember something. And I say, hey, do you remember the smell? I don't remember. - He doesn't remember. - Yeah. - And St. Bob's are saying that my details get a little fuzzy here. No, if they don't, then you're lying. - Right. - Yeah, yeah, if you remember. - That's a worse signal. - It's just like Sherman showed such a strength to even say like, I don't really know what these beans I was getting downloads from looked like. - Yes. - Yeah, totally. And then what's wild is the base he was at. He took a photo of it and it's in above black. And I, you know, we reversed me in my researcher, reverse image searched and we figured out as San Vito de Normani and, you know, that's in Southern Italy. And we called it out and he goes, yeah, that was the base. And so like, you write the book expecting for people not to be able to find it because you don't really have the internet, you know, in popular use back then at least and, you know, now we did. So everything keeps seeming to check. And then the final thing, I'll say about that one is, like, you know, and I hate doing this, but a guy who doesn't want to go public also, but very high up in like extremely credible position, who I wish I could say, who it is. You can take it with as much of a grain of salt as you want. - Yeah. - You can not care that I'm saying this, whatever. But he corroborated a bunch of details around the Sherman story as well. So I really, you know, hold that in high esteem. - It's interesting that people have likely been interfacing with these non-human intelligence through telepathic downloads. That's really crazy, but it's really interesting. And it holds a lot of water. Strange world we live in. - Strange world and, you know, you know who Puharic is? Andre Puharic? - Oh. - Early architect of MK Ultra. He had these sort of machines that I think were kind of similar to what Dan Sherman was using where you would hum a tone in your mind, match that to the tone you're hearing in these headphones. And that would get you into this locked in telepathic state. And he, everybody had this camp in upstate New York and all these quote unquote space kids would go up there and channel what he called the nine, these alien beings. And he was a contractor for the CIA. - Wow. - And that work definitely became classified and went somewhere. And I think it probably went into Project Preserve Destin. - Wow. - Yeah. - So let me ask you this and kind of a similar vein, right? Right now, because Chris Ramsey asked me a similar question, I thought it was a great one. Right now, if you were in charge of assembling five witnesses for the next congressional hearing to make it the best one that's ever happened, to deliver their testimony, it could be five minutes, it could be three hours, what five people would you choose? - Ooh. - Could they be just anybody? - Like, yeah, anybody. - Yeah, let's go non-hostile witnesses. So you could be like a Bobby Ranman. - Okay, yeah, right. - So it's a separate question. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - The separate question is top five people you deliver a fat interrogatory tour to basically extract their testimony. - So they have good intentions. - Yes, okay. And could they say anything in the actual test? 'Cause I would pick somebody like Rush, but it's tough 'cause half the things were like, he's like, you know, let's go to a skiff right now. And like I'll tell you, you know. - By the way, when people say Rush has no first-hand experience, go back to look in what Moscowitz asked, David Grush, when Moscowitz said, "Do you have any exposure to overhead collection platforms to picked in UFOs?" Grush said, kind of dance around the topic, then Moscowitz said, "Have you ever seen any overhead collection of UFO crashes?" And he said, "I would have to answer that in a closer." - There he goes. - So yeah, let's do full open disclosures. - So they can say whatever. - Okay, I mean, that's funny, 'cause my mind goes to some of the people who. I think don't have the best intentions, but no so much clearly due to their background. Um, I think people like, you know, I think rush has like kind of autistic attention to detail, you know, hundreds of pages that he gave to the ICIG, you know, Thomas Monheim, and like has just like programs, names, dates, like, you know, where the bodies are buried. So I'd say him, he could probably go through right now. He could be deliver the exact specific sectionals and years from which program names were first dreamt up. Definitely. First created, and he'd be able to name everything off the top of his head. I think, you know, I think how put off would be great. I think he's got way more knowledge than maybe meets the eye. I mean, like, it's like, you know, if he's saying definitively the 12 to 15 crafts, you know, on, uh, on Joe Rogan, it's like, where are you getting that information? Yeah, and what yeah, and where as well as just 12 to 15. I reckon the 12th of 15 were just the ones he was exposed to. Totally. And he seems to pop up everywhere you look when it comes to like UFO science and sigh stuff and sigh stuff, which seems to be weirdly interrelated with all this. Remember what Grush said on a JRE, uh, you know, they start talking about remote viewing stuff, and David Grush says, well, what if the CIA started looking into this as a, a sigh stuff as a possible solution to serve as a key to unlock some stuff we have sitting around in a warehouse? I think that's one of the most poignant things he's ever said that nobody's ever really, kind of paid attention to. Interesting. So wait, so what would this, this would be, they were talking about Stargate remote viewing, he and Joe and Grush proposes the question that maybe these, these sigh programs were taken on by the agency and other intelligence communities as a way to get it gain a better understanding over the craft technical vehicles we have stored in our warehouses. I mean, that makes total sense. We'll also look at, put off, you know, he's the founding architect of Stargate, all this like expi stuff and then he moves on to like the rest of his career seems really dedicated to the UFO question. Yeah. So there, I, that has to be connected somehow. And you hear a lot of rumors that they're, that they're somehow connected. And look, this is really weird, but like, okay, if the sigh stuff is real, which I think both of us think it is, remote viewing is a real modality, then what is happening in reality itself? Like what, what is like the Archimedes lever of conflict? It's like psychic conflict. Yeah, which is really weird, right? In the lever that, yeah, the, the, the system that allows remote viewing to work and operate it, is it really, it breaks my brain because I'm such a like logistic person to, to think about sigh principles and stuff. It's, it's such a huge quandary to me. Have you met anybody that discusses timeline management or the ability to see different timelines? Obviously, Bob was our, you know, his briefed on project Looking Glass. Yeah. You have Tim Taylor, who, you know, is written about by Diana Pasolka and kind of enters her life. He is part of this quote unquote secret space program. And, but he kind of thinks of himself as like you know, adjustment bureau timeline management person. So there's been a, you know, I think I've talked about it before a testimony. I'm not really sure what to do with because I don't, I really don't know how to act on it. And again, this can be taken as conjecture because it's just a claim, but it's somebody who claimed whilst they were a naval intelligence, they were part of a program that used like a sphere that was similar to Randy Anderson as a basically a remote viewing tool. But that this sphere was basically used to I guess like a coagulate time onto the Planck scale, looking at time as as frames of Planck scale and combined with like the many worlds interpretation of quantum physics to like view parallel timelines. I can't, I don't know what to do with it. It's really complex. Do you know what to do with it? Send it to me. But again, I don't know the validity to it. I've not even begun to start to vet that individual because it's just a really interesting claim that I'm just not sure what to. Whoa, I'll send that. I'll try and get that guy over. I would be so fascinated. I mean Matthew Brown also talked about some AI timeline management system that the White House has or whatever. Then that would give some pretty definitive examples about how the universe works, right? Because if you have an AI that can predict future events that we have a pretty deterministic universe, right? Either deterministic or you can kind of move between branches of the multiverse or something and, you know, you know, actually Hugh Everett who created the many worlds theories, you know, Everett, many worlds. He went on to work for the Pentagon in nuclear game theory. Really? Yeah. Whoa. Yeah. So maybe there's some sort of weird connection there where I mean, oh, this is really trippy, weird territory, but like, I think the DOE like, so the UFO's in Nuke's book talks about like all these guys seeing sort of saucers discs, you know, tic-tacs orbs that seem to like often interfere with Nuke's. The DOE itself often feels like the center of a lot of people who having spiritual experiences. And so I wonder if, you know, if you were to actually like say like the apocalypse isn't some fictional thing, like maybe like multiverse branching is happening all the time. And like, there's pruning occurring and there's certain apocalypsees that happen like in this rebody problem and then some survive or whatever. Like the DOE would be like the center of that stuff. Right. And so like, maybe they're like the most entangled with this like spiritual world that explains a lot of the UFO's and Nuke stuff. And if you actually talk to Robert Hastings, add this deep conversation with him. And I was like, how many of these guys have had close encounters of the third kind where they see beings and they themselves have been abducted, not just they're on the base, they've seen stuff or whatever. And he goes, like seven or eight out of the 167. And I go, did you pull, did you pull them formally on this? They go, he goes, no, those are just the people who've like come out saying that. So in my mind, I'm like, there's probably like half of them. Yeah. Or more. And he himself has had experiences as has, you know, Bob Jacobs, you know, a lot of these guys have had Mario Woods. I found out had childhood experience. So it's like the people who end up working in these programs are like closer to this like weird celestial realm. Yeah. Yeah. Like I know guys who have worked in the program who aren't have now like become far more spiritual because of their time in the programs. And it's really, it's really weird. Like guys who are interested in dying up Asolka's work and like religious questionings and religious frameworks because of their time in the program. Yeah. It's like what metaphysical concepts or spiritual concepts are these people either directly or incidentally exposed to while these programs. And then you have Tim Taylor telling Diana Pasolka, here's the hierarchy of being. And I think it's like alien or non-human intelligence, you know, or aliens or whatever, you know, human hybrids with the beings. Then it's like, you know, intel agencies or whatever. And it's like on down from there. And it like like how do you have, is this do you think he's legit? Do you think Tim Taylor's legit? He's just now submission controller that seems to also pop up everywhere in this issue. Also seems to like know all the experiences like he knows blood. So he knew Charles Hall. Yeah. You probably have better knowledge on this than I because you've spoken to the man. But it's I wish I did. I wish I got more out of he seems to be acting on the behalf of a faction. Yeah, yeah, hanging out and getting close with various people. What his deal is, I don't know the thing that's most intriguing to me are the statements that he walks around with credentials from numerous intelligence agencies and organizations like an RO access various IC agency access. That's very strange to me. We can just kind of stroll in wherever he wants. Yeah, it's strange. And I don't like like naming too many too many names, but like, you know, especially if they're not like public figures, generally, but I think blood so docks Tim. And then Chris Ramsey kind of said it best with Tim Taylor where he's like, if you want us not to mention you, like stop doing spooky shit. Like he just ends shows. Yeah. He enters the lives of all of these experiences. And it's really close with them. Like, yeah, isn't there photos of Tim Taylor at like football games of Chris Bledso's children, something like that? Like, he's really involved in their lives. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. So would Tim Taylor be the third one on your list? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, if we'll, again, it's a problem is the intersection between like, have some incentive to like not say everything. And like what they know is like extremely high. So like, if it's like the truth serum test, yeah, like I do Tim Taylor, which sure, like this platform full unlimited disclosures of people who have expressed interest in some disclosure and they get the old. I mean, another guy on the good side, I think, or at least good side at the end of his life was Harold Maumgren. And I think he knew a lot more. And this was so sad to me because I thought we had multiple days of interviews that we could have lined up. We did our first interview. His health started to go downhill right after that. And so we were going to do like four hours, like three days in a row or something like that. And, and then he said things to me that like, I don't think anybody thought that like whoever the majestic 12 group is like had anything to do with him. I mean, it would kind of make sense that Bissell would be like a part of that or something. But he then says on the phone to me. And I didn't even catch this when he said it on the phone to me because he's voice is muffled and he's in the hospital on his deathbed. But he goes that was when the CIA started tracking me. They put my name in some file and he goes them and the majestic. And then we had we dubbed the whole thing cuz he had throat cancer 10 years before and then I see it in the dub I'm like like after he passed away then you met a person in my case that day your name was all the important books of talent. I am. Who keeps? Wow. It's like what did he know you know with how quickly his health declined it almost felt like he was willing to kind of let go after he was able to disclose some of that information you know you hear a lot of like a family members of of elderly loved ones who are kind of holding on to say goodbye to their loved ones or you know get a final word and it seemed like him being able to speak about these disclosures with his daughter present with his family present it seemed like right after that his health declined I don't maybe he was it that's just been I mean he was holding on to for so long I think so I think he was bottling it up and he really I think he felt a little bad about some maybe like tangential touch points he had had with the program and I think he just wanted to see more of this stuff out and I wish more legacy people had consciences like that I know I wish that too and then I also I understand if your family's being threatened yeah if you're taking some anthrax booster and for all you know you know it's like you're threatened with inappropriate stuff on your computer or to get your life ruined too wants to deal with that yeah no yeah so but I do wish more more people can and honestly you're like my biggest hope as far as like more stuff coming out because I feel like you're in touch you're as close to the metal as it gets you know like if somebody has come out like often I'll try to make some like beautifully produced thing with them but I'm not really like you're you're really like on the front lines trying to get people out over multi-month periods yeah and that's an impressive I mean you're really putting yourself in the line of fire and it's it's amazing well I'd like to provoke more of a reaction from from legacy people take a like take more of a step against me and I'd like to see what happens I'll put this as like a call to action for for anybody who's had firsthand legacy exposure please contact me at UAP group at protonmail.com my my initial my wish isn't to get people public like to make videos about them if they want to fun and I've vetted them properly sure we'll do a project together but my initial thing is to collect their testimony and get it to the right people of people who can perform do actionable things with that testimony and what's the goal at that point if it's not to bring everybody out to the public necessarily but it's to kind of force is it like executive action yeah executive administrative action I think there can be an impetus where you know things like the the administration they have a preponderance of evidence and whistleblowers to where they need to take action and bring these programs under congressional oversight and that is when a disclosure will occur and I think that is when a disclosure of a non-human intelligence and active and active programs to reverse engineer and exploit materials but hey we're doing this but the technologies are still held up in the black budget that's fine if if the US receives a disclosure that non-human intelligence is here it's been interaction with humanity for a long time like Carl Nils says we actively have crafts and we're actively figuring out how to work various systems with them but we're not going to tell you exactly what we're doing with them because that's a national security concern that is a fine medium for the vast majority of the American public like there doesn't and I wouldn't even you don't need to it's the same thing with kind of what most people talk about you don't need to disclose the specifics behind the technology because you don't need the bad faith actors creating a flux liner and rammed it into New York and creating it and turning New York into a wasteland for sure but I would say I don't know like I think they're trade secrets for example with nuclear weapons but nuclear physics yeah it's like 99% disclose physics about like internal mass reduction and like space time bubbles and inertial dampening and stuff like that that absolutely should be given to you man for sure like say if he figured out that this like you know the quantum gravity stuff is BS and actually gravity is not what we think it is because gravity's been this big question in physics for you know decades huge for like the world for like our ability to like you know kind of manipulate matter and like make the world a better place yeah and like build you know engineering and you know medical devices and medicine and and and and you know not be stuck on these Boeing 747s 737s with the doors fly off you know like it's it's it's crazy so and oh I didn't mean it right no no no I was going off the ranting I was just going to say and if yeah there's zero point energy systems that have been and could be exploited somehow that is a absolute humanitarian crime to keep from people it is I mean do you think we do have that because that seems to be the implication of a lot of these you know Dylan Borland literally said it you know the most classified thing most sensitive thing is not the craft it's the energy system yeah and didn't Jake barber say with Ross Colt Hart he knew about like zero point energy systems at the very end of the interview or like just insane energy systems I'm almost almost positive he did wow I don't know I maybe we talked about anti gravity being him so yeah and maybe anti-gravity systems it's I mean I think it's likely again my I have very poor understanding of physics or some of this stuff I just I like the programs see I yeah I think my base cases they have some weird effects that they know how to get yeah kind of in little experimental cases I think the idea that there's a box that could like power the earth in a sustainable way and it's like hidden in some like DOE national lab or you know one of these you know containers that you've mentioned I think that's ridiculous I don't think that's true if it if it is true it is a travesty and you like you know the lost century by steaming career is like the most important yeah documentary ever whatever but I just I have trouble believing that I think it's somewhere in the middle where you have these like physics effects that they prove like the bifield brown effect yeah for example that I covered where like I'm pretty high confidence that there's a there there and you have Carl Nell who ran a two billion dollar PNL you know CTO of like basically a Northrop subsidiary saying you know watch Jesse's video on Thomas Townsend Brown Jesse's done a number of podcasts looking into Townsend Brown and some other very interesting like heretical technology so I'd invite people an unsolicited plug to check out some Jesse's podcasts you have the lead electrostatic sky at NASA Charles Bueller oh yeah leaving NASA and starting his own company Exodus space based on propellantless propulsion which he attributes to Thomas Townsend Brown he's had access to a vacuum chamber for 20 years and like says he's replicated this like you know a ton of time so you have so much evidence to me that that is real and then even that it's like are you hiding you know I don't I don't even the line between that and the Mark McCann list like alien reproduction vehicles like we have workable craft that uses you know anti-gravity I don't know I don't know I think I think that at least copycat vehicles and like the the subject of alien reproduction vehicles I think that is definitely a thing yeah a people often ask the question of alien reproduction vehicles exist you know why you're why you know why is the F-16 engaging with enemy assets and not a TR-3B like I think a strong argument can be made that with alien reproduction vehicles there there's probably a very select number and the technology is probably so sensitive and probably not adapted perfectly kind of what you're talking about copying certain aspects and getting weird physics effect that these sorts of craft and these sorts of platforms are relegated only to the blackest of of programs for ISR purposes you know I mentioned earlier like oh the founding of that and I just I think the NRO is so important to this whole conversation of UFO legacy programs the NRO was founded to get American intelligence in tonight air spaces because we knew that nuclear war with the Soviets would lead to mutually assured destruction so there was a huge advantage in defensive reconnaissance to find out where Soviet radar Soviet nuclear sites and perform ISR of of adversaries into night air spaces grouped like exponentially and important so I mean if you have a TR-3B that can travel to Russia instantaneously and then render itself invisible on any sort of detection system whether it's radar whether it's human eyes and together intelligence from a hundred feet away from a Russian ICBM silo that is invaluable it's yeah it seems like it and I think the B2 stealth bomber was like the last classified vehicle that was then declassified so or am I wrong about that? Is it the B21 radar or was the radar ever even like inherently classified? I don't think it was classified I think we all know about the B21 radar and that's like an official thing so maybe I'm wrong but I think it might be right because there was the SR-71 U2 a 12-box car yep and now of course F-117 classified for a little bit all that tone of a test range yep yep and that that crash in Bakersfield in 1986 or something and then people started but I think the B2 is the last like classified then declassified so we've got to have stuff after that, like come on. It's not just like F22's, F35's, you know, we've got to have like. I think the strongest use case are triangles. I mean, I know numerous people who have seen triangles on launch pads at Groom Lake or, you know, Roderick Castle, 150 feet away from a giant rotating triangle whose characteristics are most exactly similar to TR3B. That the triangle story, and yeah, that's a great thing you broke with Castle, like that story comes up time and time again. There, even as like ancillary parts of other stories, like Randy Anderson, who you broke as well, like with Area 51, he claimed he saw triangles taking off from Area 51. - Yeah, Triangles stored at, yeah, DOE-owned lands across the Nevada test and training range. - Yeah, Dylan Borland, Triangle, the Belgian Wave. We're triangles, and I wonder if that, you know, had something to do with, you know, maybe that was actually just terrestrial tech, like, you know, American technology. - I mean, Edgar Fouche gets a ton of flak for not producing claims for his testimony, and like I get it, what's he gonna do, a wheel of TR3B out? But I still think his testimony has so much incredible juice to it and aspects and things that I think are inherently true, for example, back in 1998, Edgar Fouche was talking about TR3B. First, actually, operational models of TR3B started to kind of fly around in the 90s, from the 70s until onward. It was prototype models. The pilots forum are out of the Navy test pilot school out at Pax River, and the AFFTC out of the Edwards 412 test wing, which is something that I would come to believe as inherently correct with the testimony of Ed, the Lieutenant Colonel at the 412. So the Fouche TR3B is mind-bogglingly interesting. Additionally, he says that the propulsion system was reverse engineered out of San Dia and Lawrence Livermore National Lab. In my framework of UFO legacy programs with FFRDCs, this would make complete sense that high-trust government owned contractor operated, where the technology is still proprietary government property. Like a reverse engineering propulsion system for internal mass reduction would be kept within the FFRDC, while contractors like Northrop Grumman, Locking Martin, Teladine Ryan, would be used as compartmentalized contractors unlike the skin of the craft, the construction. Wow. All that stuff. Do we know that Edgar Fouche worked at Area 51? Yes. So we have records of that. Yes. And then anything else that kind of backs up the veracity of his claims? I'm particularly fond of his mention of the Men in Black with Treat, the Tactical Reconnaissance Engineering Assessment Team and how that kind of ties into weird things about the licked and shine crown prince Hans Adams, the second talking about Albert Stubblebine and his little treat project and stuff like that. Wait, what is this? There's an old, I got to find it because this was like a Hans Adams to Steve and career, I think, email in the 90s or maybe it was reversed, but we're Adams. I have it in my, I think it's my TR3B video on triangles, but Hans Adams talking about like a treat existing under Albert Stubblebine, who of course was head of US Army Innscom and was obsessed with this is psychic spy stuff and also was tasked with the Intelligent Support Activity, ISA, which is now a JSOC unit. What did he mean when he said treat? Like TREAT, like a Men in Black type thing, my brain is fuzzy on the exact context around Hans Adams saying Stubblebine and his treat organization. So I have to reference my video for the exact specifics, but that's an interesting thing. Fouche was at Area 51, I'm trying to think what else. I mean, the rotating, the spinning mercury was also mentioned in DeGlocka, you know, the comelor stub context, where you had rotating spinning mercury according to this Polish journalist Igor Bitkowski and you had Ernest Grawitz and, you know, this kind of had a medical stuff under Joseph Mangala and, or maybe he was actually Mangala reported, might have reported to him. Right. And then who else, Walter Gerlock, this guy studying anti-gravity in the German context at Nearby University, who was also working on DeGlocka. So and then they had spinning mercury as well and then the Vamanas and, you know, they're spinning mercury there. So maybe, maybe this is the latest instantiation is the TR3B spinning mercury. Because Fouche was adamant that the TR3B is not anti-gravity. This internal mass reduction is to reduce the weight, the mass of the TR3B by I think 89% and then various propulsion systems propellant and it can indefinitely loiter go and lower throw a bit. He said that the program was spearheaded by NRO, CIA and NSA, which of course, to me, that fully checks out. I'm trying to think what else because his 1998 International UFO conference or Congress, I can't remember what the acronym stands for. That 1998 presentation is fantastic because Fouche delivers his disclosures as well as like the amalgamation of his five close friends and sources disclosures on TR3B and he, Fouche himself stated he had seen the craft twice once in Edwards Air Force Base and once somewhere else, I can't quite remember. But, you know, if I, if I had to bet on one derivative system that we have, it would be the triangles. Like, you know, it's so confident in the triangles. It goes up everywhere, really does. What do you think of? Maybe we can, we can wrap up with this crazy story of Dan Berish because I find him so fascinating. So this is a story after Bob Lizar, but at S4 area 51 and there's, there's these crafts and these being who is he and what did he experience? So he's an alleged what microbiologist out of S4 who interfaced with the J rod, a recovered living extraterrestrial entity that was housed at seven, six layers under area 51 S4 under all the weird craft storage and project looking glass and all that weird stuff. And that there was basically a containment sphere where he would go interface with this being and extract its blood for tissue sampling. And he gave like a super long document or interview talking about the exact biological systems of this creature's blood. Have you seen the greatest larp of all time or maybe there's something to it or maybe, I don't know, it's either the greatest larp of all time or there's, there's something to it. Have you seen, I think his name is Brian Jackson. Yes, yeah, yeah, you have a researcher and he gives a presentation on Dan Berish. There's some weird stories around Dan Berish where I think his like godfather was Mike McConnell, who was Mike McConnell. Yeah. It's director of the NSA. And like, there's something around Mike McConnell's son dying in like a freak accident. And I don't know if Brian Jackson's, you know, sure about this or what, but he thinks that it's almost like Mike McConnell takes in Dan Berish is like this like, you know, like godson, like really important person to him and puts places him on all these special projects and almost views him like a son, like sees him as having like soul swapped or something with his son or some of this, it's very strange. That's so bizarre because Admiral Mike McConnell is somebody I would say with almost like as high secondhand certainty as you could have was involved in the programs. This is where things get really weird because John Lear is on record saying in an interview, like I helped, you know, get Bob Lazar a job at S for area 51 because this was this all part of this limited disclosure plan because we knew that we could, you know, Bob Lazar was discreditable. We could say that he owned the brothel and that he faked his educational credentials and all this stuff. Um, and he said that he was asked to do this at the behest of a majestic 12 member named Mike McClellan. Yeah. But I wonder if it's Mike McConnell. It could have been Mike because there's the S for area 51 connection with Dan Berish. Yeah. Which, you know, even outside of of Bob Lazar and Dan Berish, I'm, oh, like fully convinced that S for is a real place and not on Tonapa, but S for right by Bruce Lake. I am too. Yeah. Dan Berish. His story is so interesting. I'm not sure what to make of it. Brian Jackson's doing great work on Berish. The night shift channel with, with Clint and, and Zander Jones, they're, they're super into Dan Berish. And then when I was hanging out with, with Chris Ramsey, he showed me the most bizarre videos of Dan Berish and his wife, like vlogs of, of the most weird, possibly agency coded, like what? Things of all time where it were his wife will like show an orange crush Shoda and almost give, like, what seems like agency keywords or something. I don't, implying maybe Dan Berish and his wife are, are absolutely bonkers or maybe she's as handler. I, I don't know, the story is so bizarre. And there's a lot to chew through. I, that's why I'm glad people are doing good work and, and looking through his story because there's actually quite a bit to chew through. And of course, J Rod, um, the story doesn't just stop there with, uh, Dan Berish, but also goes back to, to Bill Uhouse, who claimed at area 51 auxiliary sites, there was a, basically a, uh, ARV or extraterrestrial vehicle simulator built off the Kingman crash. And that a recovered, uh, biologic, called J Rod was, was stored at, uh, one of the auxiliary facilities. Bill Uhouse said that before Dan Berish. I don't know if it was before after, because I think Bill, the primary Bill Uhouse interview before he died was, was, um, mid 2000s. And Dan Berish's interview was like 2003, 2004, right? I think that's right. Yeah. So it, you know, I, without knowing those dates for certain Bill Uhouse could have just ripped off Dan Berish, but I, I'm not 100% sure on whose disclosures came first. Well, that's interesting. I mean, the fact that they're backing each other up probably, I mean, who knows if it's It's uncorrelated, but with all this. - Access for stuff, this is why we need project gravitar. - Yeah, we exactly. - And this is why Luigi, that's your movie done, man. - Yeah, you and I both have a lot of faith in Luigi we can talk about. The project is incredible, you know? I talked about how there are like the underground sites, SAPF, STIFs, subterranean facilities, or dumps built using disguise, like foliage, disguised mountains, maybe even projections, and Luigi painstakingly tries to show how like foliage is rearranged around S4 sites and stuff like that to build a very compelling case of exactly where S4 is. - And that's another thing where like Area 51 was barely probably not ever really talked about before Bob was our, then S4 definitely wasn't talked about. I think there's some argument that Area 51 was mentioned in some magazine or something obscure magazine. Bob was probably didn't have access to that. I think, you know, it's clear that he was there, but then the fact that, you know, if we're gonna get any corroboration on S4 from that movie, that's a big deal. - Right, and some people like to try and say that Bob was our ripped off the S4 name off of Tonipotest range, because just east of Tonipotest range is an outdoor site called S4 that Janet Airlines, so Janet Airlines, the famous red striped airline, flies to Area 51, Area 6, which is by the Yucca Mountain flat, which has a Lockheed Martin known to Area Operations Facility that does work for Ditra, for DARPA, for like the NRO, the NGA, which is really weird, not, almost nobody knows about this Area 6. Again, it's on the Yucca flat and that's a Lockheed Martin, Area Operations Facility. It's super, super, super kind of like held lock and key. And then Janet also flies to Tonipotest range. And Janet also drops employees off Tonipotest range to the S4 site there. And apparently according to LazyG Ranch, which is a great blog that actually tracks like FFA, flight radar and stuff of Janet Airlines and so forth, employees on the S4 area of Tonipotest range have to be taken there directly from Janet and cannot drive on site like other employees that Tonipot can. So that's a bit strange, isn't it? And another, where we first hear about Janet Airlines, Bob was our. Yeah, 'cause Janet Airlines, that's not a disputable thing. Janet Airlines is a, you can go on YouTube right now and look up Janet Airlines and look at flights. Was that publicly known before? I don't know. I don't know. I would go on the website oldestsearch.com and quotations do Janet Airlines. Oh, I love it. That's a cool oldestsearch.com. Yeah, to see if there are any early mentions of Janet Airlines. Yeah. 'Cause LazyG Ranch does a very good kind of breakdown. So all across the Nevada test site, whether it's S4, whether it's Area 6, whether it's Tonipot, whether it's Area 51, the infrastructure is there, the underground infrastructure is there, to house Alfredo Donnell's craft, to house rapid reaction response teams that get in private jets and fly to go take care of retrieval operations, to house Bob Lazar and nine recovered craft, as the infrastructure to do so. Where do you think things are headed with UFO disclosure? Do you think things are bursting at the seams and we get a lot more kind of spontaneous disclosure? Do you think we get some slow-rolled managed thing? Do you think the subject dies out? What do you think happens? It's not gonna die out. I disagree with Carl now quite a bit when he says that his current, the current like carefully managed 2017 originating disclosure campaign is kind of dead. Maybe that specific limited disclosure campaign, but I disagree with sort of demeaning comments like that. I think as long as you have somebody like Dave Greshon, a driver's seat actively pushing and actively engaged in the topic, things are looking good. I think there's a large, there's been an impetus in public opinion on the topic. More and more people are getting engaged and even though there may be some questionable characters in films like The Age of Disclosure and maybe some opinions I don't agree with and it might be framed a little weird. I do think documentaries like that are gonna be great to get the public more intuned because if people are watching Marco Rubio who UFO heads who are deep in the subject have known, he's had an interest in the subject since 2017 and has employed his staff at the SSCI and others to go find more about whistleblowers for him. So that guy's a coward for not staking his political career when he's been well known into the subject since 2017. Maybe a coward's a strong word, maybe just hasn't had an avenue which to affect things. But he, Marco Rubio is known about the topic, but for the average Joe who might have seen Jeremy Corbell's Area 51 Bobla's are in flying saucers who might have seen the phenomenon by James Fox. Maybe they saw unacknowledged by Stephen Greer and just have a passing interest in the subject and they watch age of disclosure and they see people like Marco Rubio talk about UFOs. Maybe that's gonna spark a lot of new interest in it. - Yeah, I mean, I think it's gonna move the needle on the topic. - I think it'll be, you know, if the 2017 New York Times article was like, you know, this big jumping off point or whatever I think this will be a force multiplier. I think James Fox's new movie moment of contact to where whatever will be this massive force multiplier. I think the phenomenon itself, that first movie by James Fox. - That's great. - It's just such an amazing survey level overview gateway for so many people. - That's why I tell people who are interested, if they're still grappling with the question of like, are UFOs real? - Yeah. - I think the phenomenon's a really good place to start. - Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fascinating, man. And then what do you think, like, what's your, you know, fast forward 10 years from now? What do you hope you're doing? - I would love nothing more than to be involved with transition of legacy programs into transition of legacy programs into traditional oversight channels. I would love to be on teams that goes in inventories, warehouses, housing craft and biologics and materials and bridging those clandestine programs, you know, still black budgets, still protected by usap but back under United States control. I'd like to be involved in helping whistleblowers get basically reparations for maybe their VA disability that's been canned, stuff like that, help. I would like to be in an official capacity helping pry legacy programs from the cold dead hands of people like Dick Cheney and Admiral Bobby Ray in men and a lot of these old crones of the old guard who don't want to, who are in these old boys club who don't want to relinquish control of legacy programs and bringing that to, to under control. Do you think like, you know, just going back to like the kind of convoluted org chart or whatever, it feels so, I mean, sure a lot of people watching this are like, how is that kept secret? Do you think maybe it's something like the three body problem where if the tip of the spear of science itself might be managed by like the beings or something that like the org structure is somehow managed by them? - Not necessarily, I think it's, I think it's very, I think it's, once you spend enough time looking at it, it's very rational how this is kept such secret. - How many people in the US do you think? - Oh gosh, no, about like, no pretty intimately about the U.S. - Intimately a small number, right? Say hundreds in the, in the low thousands. - Okay. - Maybe a thousand. - Okay. - As far as like defense and industrial based contractors who are exposed to metamaterials who don't really know what they are, but it's UFO stuff. - Yeah, like a larger number, maybe five to 10,000. So I'd say maybe 200, I'm gonna lower my initial estimate of like 200 people with a good knowledge of the programs and even less with a historical knowledge. - Yep. - And do you think that those people are our best and brightest minds? - Probably not. The best and brightest minds are, the best and brightest minds right now are probably at like a, actually probably some of them are, they're probably at mighter. But also a lot of them are being poached with competitive salaries by like Andrew and stuff like that. - Yeah. - But I think that the reason this is kept so secret is, you know, it's a lot more simple than people think. At every single layer of the programs, there are program protection strategies. You already have the U.S. black budget. You already have, you already have SAPS caps and usaps, almost impenetrable. You have no foreign, no foreign national stuff to even safeguard them further. You have carve out contracts with contractors. You have all sorts of stuff outlined by the 1954 Atomic Energy Agreement, a special nuclear material for an intelligence information and a transclassified foreign nuclear information. You have personal rotating from their position within OD&I to the Miter Corporation, or CIA, DS&T, to the NRO, to the Outstatt. You have program protection agencies. You have the DARPA City, of the DOEOICI, you have the CIA, you have the NSA, you have directorates under the CIA, you have the DS&T. You can put the kabosh on Lockheed Martin, trying to get rid of materials. You have this rotating personal agency. You have bigot lists of special access programs dealing with exotic materials, where to keep the program read on access small, you'll have people fulfilling dual roles. For example, this is something interesting that I have been told. You might have a legacy program scientist who has to do a little bit of like a counting or personnel management stuff, so they don't have to read in more people. So people might do jobs lower on the ladder rung than them, but never up. You're not going to have an industrial security guy who was also doing like lab technician work. Furthermore, from what I understand, there was an initiative in the early 2010s to cut off historical briefings on new program incumbents. This would lead to even folks within FFRDCs like Miter who are being told, hey, you are working on detecting, exploiting, recovering, housing, recovered craft of non-human origin, presumably extraterrestrial. restaurant and hey, the bodies are stored over there in California, that they're still not briefed into the historical lineage of the programs and historical members who have worked on them, past successes, past failures, past facilities. So the compartmentalization is obscene. And like David Grush has said, it's all carryover from the Manhattan project, not the time that might have been a good idea because you might have had Truman, you might have had Eisenhower thinking, hey, what the, what we're just getting into the Cold War after World War II, what the heck are we supposed to do with these alien spaceships flying around that have crashed into high-powered radar and we now have their bodies. We need to treat this as nuclear secrets because this could shake the very foundations of this nation. And that spiraled out of control. So it is, it is very, and you know, that's not to mention other program protection strategies like psychological operations. You got Dodie, your Dodies of the world who are Paul Benowitz and people and so forth. So I also, I think this is going to sound maybe a little nuts, but I think there's a there there. I think there are people in the like pro UFO community on like Twitter and stuff that almost play up the dangers. Like there are danger like I've been fucked with. You've probably been fucked with. I've had weird shit happen to me, but there are people where it's like the all they talk about is how dangerous it is to like look into this stuff. And I'm like, are you trying to deter like more people coming out? That seems like their whole beat. They're trying to circulate that as much as possible. It's like they want that to be a meme that's like embedded in your head if you're ever thinking about going public because there have been deaths here and deaths there. And they're, you know what? There have been some spooky shit has happened. But I don't know. It's like if that's if that's all you're talking about over and over and over again, I sometimes question. I'm like, are you some sort of operative or something? What's your deal? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Same thing. I've had weird stuff. And are you trying to deter the next person from coming out? Because you're you're talking about how spooky this whole space is like, I don't know. It drives engagement. People saying like, oh, you know, this horrible thing could happen or this scary thing happens. I you know, I personally, I know you don't and I don't I'm not going to dwell in. No, you can't. It's useless. You're not going to get any work done. No, you're not just talking about the dangers. You can't be paranoid or whatever. Because you know, if you got on a podcast or if I got on a podcast and just talked about, I'm investigating UFOs and it's so dangerous. Look like look at me go. I've been threatened. Yeah. What do you really wants to hear that? No, it's solipsistic drama. It cares. No one gives a shit. Yeah. It's like, do you want to get closer to the truth? Yeah. Like go for it. Do it. You know, or or not, like choose another route or something. Yeah. But no, there's a lot of like, you know, it's like all about me. You know, it's like, no, it's not. Yeah. It's to be about the content. Yeah. This is way bigger than any of us. It's the same thing as like, you know, I maybe trying to put together a framework of how I think legacy programs work, but it's still far more complicated than even I could possibly imagine. And I understand the tip of the iceberg of the subject. I don't understand the physics. I don't understand the experience or I don't understand the biologics. It's anybody in this subject who also claims to understand everything is probably is is non-sensical. I think so. I think the best analogy is it's a bunch of blind men touching different parts of an elephant. Yeah. And then it makes you think of disclosure in this entirely different context, which is like the government clearly has a bunch of factions who like know a decent amount about the subject or have a lot of data on it and have done some really cool scientific things on on this topic and often have tried to like weaponize the stuff to be honest. But they don't have some like foundational ontological truth that they even have the ability to give you. Like, you know, it's like what if like some rogue vigilante team, you know, that was interested in electronics intelligence outside of the government was like, we're going to create a little beep-boop machine. You're going to like match the tones in your head. You're going to try to connect. You know, that'd be cool. That's what I'm saying. It's like, but that's, you know, stuff can happen in any context government or not. There are things that they're, you know, we don't have particle accelerators that we can just like build overnight like outside of the government. But like a lot of this stuff is way more like, you know, you just go out and touch the thing or get it, you know, more than you think. It's not this like cabal who's like controlling everything. That's why Chris Ramsey had a very poignant tweet recently. It doesn't apply to me because of course I operate my own lane of legacy programs. That's just what I like where he said I would I would rather talk to like a farmer about UFOs than like, you know, a former government person. And I think that's so valuable. We have what we have people like that that are focused more on the human aspect. Yeah. The experience aspect. Because I'm a I'm a lost puppy when it comes to some of the most credible, I think witnesses are like, you find them. There's like they have no like digital footprint, you know, they're living in the middle of nowhere. Like I was in Norway and I'm talking to this farmer and he like sees a craft and it's hovering right around his house. And he's just like never gone public. He doesn't he barely knows English. Like the most simple man you'll ever meet. And I'm like, yeah, I'm like assigning extreme high confidence to that. And then, you know, I think a lot of on the government side, you have a lot of deception and lying and whatever. But then simultaneously to that, like there are a lot of people who just put a minus sign like you see AJ from the Y files go on Sean Ryan or you see Chase Hughes or whatever. And it's like these people aren't whistleblowers. They're government propaganda artists. And it's like, it is just as lazy to wholesale accept everything these people are saying as it is to put a minus sign on everything they're just because they had to go through adoption. Just because they had to go through dobser. And because they from like an American like tactical, you know, geopolitical advantage perspective, like don't want to like leak. You know, like war secrets to like Russia China. Or go to jail for espionage or go to jail for espionage. Like just because they're not Ed Snowden doesn't mean they're not a whistleblower. Like like, you know, and then also like what about the meta question. So you think they're running a sigh off, you know, Chase Hughes or Sean Ryan, like figure out why they're running the site. Like we'll ask the like figure out what's going on. I think the Silla in Caribdus is like, you know, you accept ever you go, you know, poor Paul, Paul Benowitz, but like you accept everything, you know, or the other side, which is you, you don't take anything seriously. You don't take anything at face value. There has to be some like middle path. Yeah. I think it's such a tricky field to navigate because there are self aggrandires, liars of people acting on behalf of siops everywhere. And then noble individuals who are just trying to to speak truths like David Grush, like Dylan Borland, for example, who I think is another one. So it's just it's such a complicated topic. I do, I do have, I know, I know people like Ross Goldhard have been a little pessimistic on the subject of disclosure progression. I do have an optimistic view there that we are heading towards a point of hopefully not like CIA sponsored limited disclosure of no mention of derivative technologies, but like a more complete picture of our reality and what really interesting RDT and E programs within our own USDOD and IC have been doing for 90 years. I hope, I hope maybe, you know, this might seem like a full of stream, but I would love one day to be able to write or help write the textbook of the history of the legacy programs. That to me would be I could think of no more interest. I would love to become a hermit up in the mountains and spend two decades just writing out the history of legacy program. Well, I can't think of anybody more qualified. So I think maybe one day, maybe one day far from it, though, I have just as much of a, I just have my own piece of the puzzle. We, you know, just just promise that if they hit you up and say, Hey, you can be our official, you know, historian that that is contingent upon you being able to write stuff that goes public. I wouldn't want to be like swallowed into the, the programs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Just because that's kind of what I, what I stand against. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I hope, I hope that happens. And I, I do think, you know, even the people trying to manage the thing or flood the zone or whatever, often their plans end up backfiring because you're just adding interest in eyeballs. Like young people are getting more interested. And that has its own momentum that's just going to snowball. And like, it's the, it's honestly like a classic like intelligence failure is like, you try to pull off these triple bank shots and, you know, they end up kind of backfiring. Yeah. For example, there is Steven Greenstreet trying to, trying to take down David Grusher sensibly, essentially by saying he struggled with PTSD multiple times after being in theater and experiencing the horrors of war and trying to say that he's not a credible witness because he has suffered from PTSD. And that backfires and, and that, that sort of stuff is, yeah, no, it's not worked out very well. It's so bad. And like, guys, I think he was like, had a contract with the DOE or something at some point. Greenstreet has a contract with the DOD. I think Department of State, where he said himself, he was doing soft propaganda videos for like a foreign nationals trying to get them, like, trying to get them interested in, in basically US patriotism and rationalism. So, yeah, that's a little weird and he's constantly trying to provoke a reaction. I think, you know, and on that note of people attacking David Grusher, you have a guy, I think his name is Basic Chris on Twitter, something like that. I forget his actual name because I, you know, I think he's worthy of a mention here. But he, he went, he went off on David Grusher. Well, first I did an interview with Dianne Jones and I talked about PTSD that David Grusher suffered from. Yeah. I talked about a friend who was like, you know, mortared while he was, you know, in Afghanistan deployed. This guy was pounding the pavement on how David Grush, you know, I was lying or making this up and that David Grush just had a friend who had committed suicide or something later. And that was the cause of his PTSD and then somebody finally interjected and never engage with this guy. But somebody interjects and they go, you know, hey, man, actually this did happen. And he talked about two different friends and he goes, oh, sorry, it's like, dude, I mean, like, do you know how much pain you're causing to somebody who's like, you know, served our country? Yeah. You think that's cool? Like, that's so loud. It's the same people who said Randy Anderson was a liar because he suffered PTSD from a service in Jordan. And once he got out of the armed services, he, you know, he turned to substances to deal with the pain. Yeah. And he got clean because he's a strong man and he got his life back under him. But because he struggled with addiction issues, because of the horrific things he's faced in life, that means his testimony is untrue. It's the same people who say, oh, Dylan, Borland looks nervous. So therefore, he must be like neurodivergent and therefore he's been tricked and preyed upon. If he's, who wouldn't be nervous saying what he's saying, it's, it's, it's, no, I think it's despicable. And I also, I want to flip the frame because a lot of people talk about grifters in the UFO space. There are grifters. I think one we talked about on the show, Stephen Greer. And, you know, he, like, we'll do CE5 cruises and charge all sorts of money for it. And it's, you know, it's kind of ridiculous. I think those tickets were 9K for the CE5 crew. It's totally messed up, praying on people's credulousness, like not cool, right? But the grifters, at least you understand the free market incentives to grift. You're like, oh, you're sensationalizing to make money. Yeah. You're just as bad as, you know, any random used car salesmen or somebody with, you know, some online course or whatever. Yeah. You're skimping you on what they're giving you value wise. Like, I get what's going on there. What I don't get is people like the two people we mentioned earlier. There is no free market incentive for them to hate as much as they do on all of the people coming out. They're chronically online. It's like they're these weird basement dweller types. Yeah. And there, no one pays them. So who is, you're not making money. Nobody's even engaging with their content. So like, if you're, why, why are you, you feel like it feels like you're operationalized? Yeah. You're actually paying you. Where are the incentives? You show me the incentive. I'll show you the action. Either that or, yeah. It's that or they get a, and probably it could be both for all, you know, but also like a dopamine rush from giving a counterpoint to, you know, crap on American heroes. It's, it's so weird and like, you know, if, if you're, if you're, I actually am pro people being skeptical of, you know, if like a testimony comes out, you feel like it's not corroborated. Great. Like, you know, come at it. I actually think, you know, the D Dean Johnson thing, you know, if, if given that he didn't know, have the knowledge of like the fact that, you know, Malmgren had the CIA background was actually like decently like rigorously like written up, although I think it's like totally wrong on all the details. But like their room for skeptics are good. Like I've had Mick West on my show. I think, you know, he seems like increasingly, just like a bad actor with the, be it true of stuff. But like, I do want skeptics, like skeptics are good, but like be a good skeptic. You know, like, be, don't go after the person's service when like that's obviously like just real. The service is real. Go after the testimony and say like, you know, we think that's kind of weak or something. Yeah. But there's just other points of their argument in testimony and then let's, and then debate those. Yes. But like that, yeah. Yeah. Don't go at home. Like if you're, if you're going at home and into that extent, that consistently without any clear incentive to like you're not getting paid from a free market perspective and you're spending all day doing this stuff, you have to, like, who, who's actually paying you? Like, yeah, it's, and you know, we're, where's case? They're just trolls who like sewing discourse on social media and infiltrating like a UFO Twitter, which obviously there's a lot of different personalities, a lot of people pushing different things and just going obviously completely anti against the grain and, and crapping on people that many people are, are interested in their testimony and, and studying and like, it's just, it's a weird space. It's definitely a weird space. Well, yeah, we should focus on the aspirational feature, which is, you know, hopefully we both get to take a ride in the UFO at some point. Yeah, please. The world gets disclosure and you get to write the official UFO legacy program history. UAP Gerb, this is always such a pleasure. I always learned so much from you. And please, everybody go subscribe to the channel, UAP Gerb, anything else you want to kind of promote here? Gosh, I don't know. Whistleblower is your, your email, so anybody wants to get to, uh, if, if you have firsthand exposure to UFO legacy programs, please email my proton mail, UAP Gerb at protonmail.com. Again, the, the goal isn't to get you on, on, on camera, uh, or just blindly feature your testimony, but let us talk, let me, uh, take your testimony. Yeah, I mean, I will fly to you in person if you're, if your story is credible enough and undergoes the strict vetting process I've done before, take your testimony, record it and, uh, try to get it to the proper folks and, and if, if you've been met with reprisals, record those as well to try and get those to people who can assess those reprisals and, uh, hopefully get that solve to, it's not a jogging thing. It's not a serious thing. There's a, a very serious thing if you've had firsthand exposure, please, please contact me there. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't, I don't have the time to do like exclusive Patreon stuff, uh, nor do I want to, uh, gatekeep any of my stuff. So the, the, the, the Patreon, I don't gatekeep the, any content. It's only to support the channel if you, you think it's, it's worth something. If you don't support, uh, on Patreon, please go, I can subscribe the project so you're making it. Three hour deep dives, you know, just like, like the fire hose of information. So just, you know, that deserves, in any other context, you'd have to pay for that. And, you know, you're nice enough to just put it, put it out, um, because this is a topic that I think it's, it's probably hard to kind of, you know, put behind a paywall. But, um, yeah, I think you, you deserve as much, uh, sponsorship as you can get. Well, thank you, man. Yeah, man. All right. Thank you so much, Jesse. It's been a blast. 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