1195: The Hidden Gems of Western Scotland with Jim Hartsell

Be the right club. Be the right club today. That's better than most. How about him? That is better than most. Better than most. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No Laying Up Podcast. Solly here. We have a conversation coming shortly. TC and I chatted with our good friend Jim Hartzell. He's got a book out. It's called A Round of Scottish Courses. Jim is a true pioneer in terms of Americans that have gone over to Scotland, made a ton of friends, uncovered and found some hidden gems of golf courses that are off the beaten trail and just different than what you're going to find on a top 100 list. So this is the hidden gems of Western Scotland with one of the most seasoned travelers that we've met so far. So let's get started. Let's get started. Let's get started. And just a dude that we just delight in talking to every time. And we're going to see a lot of these courses upcoming in our tour of South season this fall. So be sure to check that out. This episode is also brought to you by Titleist, the number one ball in golf. You can go to Titleist.com and explore what combination of flight, spin and feel is right for your game. With that, we're going to get right into the show, our conversation with Jim Hartzell. All right, ladies and gentlemen, Jim Hartzell, the illustrious Jim Hartzell, our old friend. Yeah. How are you, sir? I'm honored to be back on with you guys. I'm doing well. You know, I didn't know if you'd let me own after the state draft and you had Alabama in the, in the bottom 10, but, you know, Neil came through and saved Bama from complete oblivion. So I owe Neil a beer the next time I see him, but, uh, no, you know, that, by the way, that one, that was so much fun. That, that, that one, but, uh, yeah, I'm doing great, man. Just trying to get the book out there, thinking about my next trip to Scotland and just happy to be talking to you guys again. You mentioned the book around the Scottish courses. Uh, if I may, it's an optimistic, fun, energetic romp through just some oft overlooked destinations in Scotland. And, and, um, I think the journey itself, like it's kind of wrapping in 25, 30, 40 years of, of Scottish golf trips into one, one thing. And, and I loved reading it. It's one of my favorites. Well, just for the, for the listeners say, Jim, give, can you give a little bit of background of, of, of who you are, what you, you know, what, what your pedigree is. I think you've got a pretty decent pedigree here to write a book about Scottish golf here. And, you know, people will hear why here shortly, but you know, you hear that accent you hear from Alabama and the, the story of Jim Hartzell and the relationships you've formed, uh, in the country of Scotland is, uh, it's just a great, it always makes me smile. It's, it's an incredible journey you've been on in that country. Well, yes. I mean, I, I fell in love with it. I've written about this a good bit. Um, when I was a kid, I just, uh, watching the open with my dad, it was his favorite tournament and it became my favorite tournament. You know, back then, you know, you could only watch, I think ABC showed it and it would only come on like the 12th hole, you know, on Sunday and they'd show Saturday and Sunday, but it'd be from the 12th hole alone. I fell in love with, and the one I remember, and I, this is in both of my last two books is, uh, the 77. Open at Turnberry. And I, I know you guys have watched videos of that and the course was just completely baked out. I remember thinking, man, this is the way golf has got to be. It's supposed to be played. And I cannot explain why other than it just was very interesting to me. And it, and, and it's kind of shots they were playing and I was only nine or 10 years old. Uh, but I was, I was already hooked on golf and that just did it for me. And my dad, he said, we're going to go one year. We're going to do this sometime. And it was another, when I got out of, graduated from college, we planned the trip. He let me plan it. It was 1994. The first year I went and, um, we, we went down and I I've told this a lot, but I'd read Michael Bamberger's book to the links land, went down to Macro Hanish, stayed for a week, then branched out from there to the old course and Carnoustie and all some of the bigger places. But I just, I, I met some people on that trip and that sort of became friends and got me. I joined Macro Hanish the next year, started going and I just, it just developed from there. So I, I, you know, it's amazing. I mean, I've got some really, you've met some of these people. I mean, I've, I've got some really good friends over there. I hardly have to pay for anything when I go over there. People let me stay. They let me stay at their house. You know, they, I mean, I, they, you know, basically I just got to get a car and a way to get over there and I'm pretty much taken care of. And it's amazing for somebody from that grew up in, you know, outside of Birmingham, Alabama and now lives in a small town in North Alabama. And it just, but it's something I love and the country, I love the country as much as the golf and the people are just, y'all, you guys have been all over the world. The people, you know, you just saw this in the world cup where they just pretty much took over the world cup when they came over here. They're just, they're just, they're just wonderful. So your book, like, you know, it's all over Scotland, but I think the, it feels like your spiritual home of sorts is out on the West coast. And especially the, you know, mole of Kintyre and then just the exploration that, that being on the West coast of all these islands and the outer Hebrides and the wee islands and all of that entails, like just how did you, I guess, go into Macro Hanish that first time and then to Dunavity, how did that blossom over the next 15, 20 years? Like, you know, going from that first trip to your return trips. Yeah, that's a good question because I love that. That's my favorite area, the West coast and the Hebrides, the islands. And we went, when we went to Macro Hanish, I, a gentleman introduced me to Dunavity, which I wrote about in the book. I just fell in love with it. And I said, you know, this is where I'm going to come here. No matter what I do from now on, because you know, you guys know this, once you get hooked on this, you just think about going back. As soon as you get home, I mean, you get off the plane and you're like, you're tired, but then the next morning you're like, okay, what, when can we go back? I think it was, you know, it was the second trip where I was, you know, me, Tron, you and I have talked a lot over the years. I love the logistics of stuff and I love like, you know, the planning of it. And so I was that second trip, I was thinking, well, hey, if instead of driving all the way down Kintyre around Loch Lomond and down through Lekilpid and all that stuff, which takes about three and a half hours, you can take it. Hey, you can take a little ferry over to Erin and just skip and then drive around Erin and take another ferry over. So I knew nothing about Erin. I was just looking at the ferry stuff and I, and I do nothing about Shishkin. I don't even think people, people didn't even talk about Shishkin back then, but I, I looked it up and I saw that there's a 12 hole course. So I told my dad, I said, look, we're going to spend one night. We're going to, instead of driving all the way down, we're going to hop over to Erin and we're going to play this course Shishkin. And then we're just going to get the ferry and go. I said, it'll take a day. We stayed at the hotel there, like the one in Blackwater foot. I can't, I can't think, think of the name of it now, but it, um, and I just thought, man, this is incredible. And it was just unlike anything I'd ever played. It reminded me. And I think you, you know, you, you and I have, you have said that 12 holes is probably the perfect amount. And you know, I was a lot younger then, but now as I've gotten older, I think 12 holes is, is, is a pretty good amount, but I just, I just, I fell in love with it. And it was just by accident because I was honestly just trying to find a shortcut, which it's a great shortcut. If you don't want to drive as much, because once you get off there at, uh, I think you guys just took this ferry. Once you get off at Koinig, it's about a, a nice hour, 50 minute, or maybe a 50 minute drive down to Danavity and Macrohannis. So that's kind of how I found it by accident. And I just started going there and, um, and branching out from there. I mean, I eventually started going out to some of the other islands and I mean, the golf on these places is so wild and rough and I just, I just love it. So I would say it came about through the logistics part of it, just trying to figure out how to get from one place to another. And then me and me being a map freak, looking at maps and collecting all these golf monthlies in the back would have a little article about, um, some hidden, they would call it the hidden gem of the month. It'd be a, an article about Carradale or, you know, mockery out, out on Isla, you know, stuff that you just don't back then you didn't hear about. I mean, obviously there wasn't Twitter and there wasn't Instagram and there wasn't really even stuff posted online then. So it was just, you got magazines and kind of collected articles. And I think you, I showed you some of my scrapbooks where I collected all this stuff over the years, you know? So that's kind of how it started. So, all right, 94. And then what was the next trip back after 94? Uh, 96. We was two years when we went back. Yeah. I've probably been 20 over 20 times now. I had a little stretch there when my kids were, were really young, where I didn't get to go for two or three years. And, um, but I've been able to just luckily with my work and stuff, I've been able to figure out a way to get over there. And especially, you know, the last six, seven years, um, I've been going twice a year. I've been lucky enough to be able to do that. And, you know, it's just something that's become a part of my life. And I just, I sort of plan it all year. I, like I said, when, when I got back in April, I just missed you guys not by much. And, I started thinking about going back in August, so I'm going in about three or four weeks. How do you balance going to the places, because I struggle with this a lot, balance going to the places that you've come to love and you know you're going to have a great time at with the exploration and the curiosity and wanting to go somewhere new and not over indexing on one or the other? Yeah, it's new to you at this point, you know? Well, Scotland has 520 golf courses, I think. That number is under dispute, but it's about that much, so I think I've played 110, 108, so there's still stuff out there, believe it or not. Now, I've played pretty much everything I want to. I say that. I've not been up to Shetland. I want to get up to Shetland sometime, but it's really just, and it's a good point, question, Tron, because it's. It's hard, because I want to go to Aaron, and I want to spend a few days on Aaron. I want to go to Denarity and see my friends and play in an open competition or two, so I've got to do that, but I've gotten to where now I make sure I have at least one new course and one new place in the trip. If it works out that I can get more, fine, but I just try to find one that I haven't played. I'm trying to, you know, you've given me this. This is a Grand Tully hotel that I've not stayed at, which is up near Pit Lockery. I'm going to go stay there, and I'm going to try to play, and I don't know if this is going to. I'm going to be able to pull this off, but I've never played, in Michael Bamberger's book, the six-hole course, Aukna Free, that's kind of the homemade course that's up in the hills there, and I've written to Aukna Free recently to see if I could get out there, and I'm going to try to do that. That's going to be my new one. If I can't do that, I'll probably pick up one. There's one or two in the Ayrshire that I haven't played, believe it or not, so yeah, I try to. It's a tough. And look, I've been lucky to go to all these areas many times, but you know, you do have things that you love, and I just. I can't. I have to spend a few days at Denarity, and I have to spend a few days on Aaron. You guys have been to Aaron. It's magical. I mean, it just. You know, it's just another world altogether, and so. But I do want to have at least one. And sometimes more, but at least one new one that I can add to the list, and it just really depends. It'll be from something you've told me or another friend. I get messages from people, please come here if you can. We'd love to have you. I'd love to host you, but you know, I've been able to get to just about every area except like Shetland and Orkney, way, way up there. I mean, that's basically in Norway, as you all know. I mean. We were at Tain, and they were having. The Orkney Golf Club, and I think Eris K. Like, Eris K. doesn't have a course, but there's a club, and they were playing a match against one another. I'm like, man, Hartzell needs to be at this dinner here, because these are his people. I love being out on those islands. The people are so friendly, and you know, there's just. You've just been out to them recently. I mean, there's just. You're almost alone on the earth when you're playing some of these places, and it's just. Incredible, but yeah, that's. But yeah, I try to. I still look for new things. I'll take roads that I don't. I've never been on, I mean, which can be dangerous in Scotland. You know, you think you're taking a shortcut, and all of a sudden, you're on a one-lane road for 40 miles and, you know, with passing places, but I've learned how to. Fortunately, I can drive pretty well over there, and you know, but it can be intimidating if you're not used to it. Yeah. Well, what. I mean, what is it about the West Coast specifically, both Ayrshire, Arran, Kintyre, all these islands that really speaks to you even more so than, you know, like you have a great appreciation for East Lothian and Fife and the Highlands, but what is it about the West Coast that pulls at you? I think it's the landscape and just the wildness of the courses. Just, you know, Donaerty and so wild, and Macrohannis is. I mean, Presswick, which is just one of the greatest courses on earth, and it's just. I wish they could still somehow have the open there. It's just. It's the landscape. It's so unusual, and the history, too, Tron. I mean, you know, I think the history of the West Coast of Scotland. Scotland started on the West Coast. I mean, you know, people came over on boats from Ireland, and, you know, it settled around Kilmartin Glen. You know, over 5,000 years ago, and the last several years, I've spent so much time going to these historic sites, and, you know, I'm an architect, too, so I love going to look at this stuff, and just the history of it is just mind-blowing, and like when you're out walking around Kilmartin Glen or one of these other sort of ancient sites on Arran or wherever, it's just. It's very. I mean, you guys know me. You've read my writing. I get a little bit spiritual about stuff, but it is a very spiritual feeling to be in some of these places. It's hard to describe if you're out there when the sun's going down or in the morning or whenever it might be. That was originally what it was, and then just the people were so welcoming, and they are all over Scotland. Look, I'm not trying to say they're. But there's something about being down at Denavity or on Arran that people just literally will do anything for you to make sure you have a good time, and so that's kind of what drew me to it, and the golf is just fabulous. I mean, I think you guys would admit the golf is different than the East Coast. The courses are. Especially in Kintyre and the islands, they're rougher around the edges. You know, they're quirky, which I love. I mean, Prestwick is probably the most quirky championship course in the world, and I dearly love it. I mean, I just think it's brilliant, so that's part of it, too, you know? Sal, you talk about Denavity, because I think that's where. I think when you're talking about planning a trip to the West Coast, I mean, Jim, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like Arran and Denavity and then up to Macrihanish. Like, that's the center of the maze. You can play a round or two in Ayrshire and then branch out and explore from there, but that's the non-negotiable. That's, like, the tier one, and, Sal, to your point from, like, some of our other pods that we've done on planning Scottish golf trips of. Like, I think the tier one in, like, on the West Coast, is different from the tier one. It's a spiritual, subjective tier one. Yeah, it's a. It's hard. This is one of the harder pods to do, I guess, with, like, if we're going to title this "How to Plan a Trip to Western Scotland," we're going to have somebody. We have somebody here that's been, I don't know how many times, 30-plus times, and done this, and if you've ever been to Western Scotland to play golf, I don't recommend you start at Caradale and the Outer Hebrides and Macrihanish, you know. Macrihanish, maybe, but, like, that, you know, you're probably going to start somewhere on the Ayrshire Coast. So, if you're. For reference, that's going to include the Troon. Troon is, like, the staple there. Troon and Turnberry are the, you know, the top of the class there. They're the open road of courses there. They're the, you know, the courses that are most widely known in that area. You kind of get a little lower than that. You have Western Gales, Presswick, of course, the history there. Presswick has changed a ton, you know, over the years, but is an incredible history at that club, but is not still maintained, like, an open road of courses from an infrastructure standpoint. And then there's two courses at Turnberry. There's Robert DeBruce is the second course there, and there's. I mean, TC, you probably have know more about the depth right around that area than I do from there. I've only played, kind of, mostly those courses from there. But from that kind of hub of the West Coast within shouting distance, and if you're going to only base yourself in the West and you are looking for some adventure from there, you can head down. They basically ferry over, like you've said, to the Isle of Arran, which, if you're not looking at a map, how that works structurally, basically, the western coast of the mainland is where you'll find Troon and Turnberry and Presswick and the city of Ayr, A-Y-R, there. But how it works west of there across the Firth of Clyde is the Isle of Arran. And then from that isle farther west is the Mull of Kintyre, or the Kintyre Peninsula, which, like, the route to drive there to Jim's point, you know, he's, kind of, looking for a shortcut to get there. The route to drive there from Troon is a disaster. I mean, you've got to go way up through Loch Lomond and the Trossachs National Park. Hope I'm saying that right. It looks like all the way around to get onto this little peninsula. Or, you could take a little bit of a detour to get there, and then you'll get to the peninsula. Or, you could take the ferry route, put your car on the ferry, and drive around Arran and get down to Campbelltown. And you've got to book it beforehand. Like, you've got to book it way out in advance, because the ferry is great. Yeah. So, if you have the appetite to get weird, you know, and to explore and to drive and to travel and to get to some more remote parts, there's no better place to do that. I think that comes from, but at the same time, like, I think those are some of the best feedback we've ever heard from people. So, yeah, I think it's a good from people is when they they message us after going to cullen or after going to you know i wouldn't say broers as far off the beaten path as as maybe as it was 10 years ago or so but uh you know i i would never gone here if it wasn't for you you know i every a lot of people know about the main courses but if you're looking for a a golf experience experience and that's that's the whole thing too with like i get you know i i have one friend in mind always when i when i think about these things it's my buddy sean he always texts me like should i play dunbarney or should i play this and he doesn't listen to any of our content and i'm like that's how a lot of people think about the trip they're just looking to play all the best courses and i i try to get people and i know tc you're even better about this than i am and jim you're the you're the you're the poster boy for this of like the point of traveling to another country to play golf isn't entirely to play all of the top courses uh on the list there and i when i go to a new region i want to do that so i'm i'm guilty of this as well but it's there's there's there's the the recent tour sauce season that we shot and that people are going to see this fall is just re it's almost reimagining golf is how i would describe it jim it because we walked off whiting bay on the isle of erin and just said like there's there was there was not one 420 yard dog leg left par four with bunkers on both sides of the fairway like there's that's that's how a lot of golf in america is and there wasn't one of those holes and at no point was i like oh this isn't real golf as i'm playing it and the entire i guess the thesis i guess of this episode and a lot of the encouragement we're going to give here is like go experience what you might call weird golf but that's just golf to a lot of people in that area and that is um there's a whole culture around these places and the game in this country that i we just have a continually growing appreciation for and into your point jim you're 30 plus years into doing this you're still discovering new places trying new places and and uh and experiencing the depth of that culture i'm sure we'll get into this a little bit later but whiting bay my god you know i i don't even know how to talk about it it's hard to talk about i mean you know i was so happy when i didn't know how to talk about it i didn't know when you guys were playing and trying and i were texting a lot over the months and toward the end of it i said man you've got to go to whiting bay and he's like yeah i'm gonna figure it out and when i found out you guys were going i i just knew you'd love it i mean it's not i can't think of anything else really to compare it to i mean it's and but as you say what a wonderful golf club and friendly people and just so much fun so many different shots you have to play it doesn't matter and i know i sound like a broken record about this but i think it's a great thing to do and i think it's a great thing to do and i think it's a great thing to do and i think it's a great but it's got nine par fours and nine par threes i mean that's ridiculous and it's just uh and and the whole the 12th and the 15th some of those holes the eighth i mean you're talking about all world i'm gonna i'm i'll try not to cuss on this on the on your podcast you can cause away some of the fucking best holes you're ever gonna see in your life i mean the eighth the first time i played the eighth i was like oh my god i think i even texted you a picture tron and then you know the 12th and the 15th when you you come over the the hill and you see the firth and the holy isle and you have you play in the shots you can play i mean you can drive the green or you know i don't know it's just and again it's i don't even know what whiting bay is 40 it's probably 4,800 yards or i don't need something like that maybe 5,000 i don't know but yeah yeah i just that kind of stuff man i get so excited about it and i and the and i just i'm so happy that you guys got to do that this time but yeah there's a lot of that on the west there's more of that on the west coast than there is on the east and that's not meant to be a slight um but it's all over scotland and it's and again it's you could sit in the the club at house at whiting bay for an hour after you're done have a sandwich and a beer and talk about what your favorite hole was and you're gonna have two or three members come up to you and i don't know it's it's everything i love about golf and um you know just even getting to the find in the clubhouse you you think you're driving through a i mean you don't even know where you're going you think you're driving into somebody's backyard or something i mean yeah it's it's crazy i mean it's just nuts i mean and i but it's the kind of stuff that i dearly love about golf and um we got too much homogenous stuff in the world i'm i'm thankful that we still got stuff like that summer golf season is here our closets are looking a lot like the rowback website right now i gotta shout out rowback's lightweight looper short this is exactly what you need if you play in hot weather climates it's got the comfort of a gym short but it looks like a proper golf short it's got a stretched waistband but it's got belt loops a real button and fly it's very lightweight if you struggle with swamp ass this is for you i'll actually wear this to the gym and then just wear it straight to the range afterward you don't need to change shorts and it's not like wearing you know a pair of stiff khakis in the in the gym as well they got a ton of great colors with it haven't found a bad bad one second the rowback tail wind polo is great for everyday wear i find myself throwing on all the time it's soft it's clean it's lightweight great for summer uh the kind of polo you just you throw on you immediately feel refreshed lastly the pool is getting a lot of use this summer the medley swim trunk i've got a few of these i love every single pair i've got the liner is so good it just you actually want to throw it on uh it really is that comfortable designs are great they got pockets it's just a really quality piece uh for the summer for the pool rowback.com r-h-o-b-a-c-k.com you can use code nlu you get 20 off your first order through the end of the week check out rowback and stop laying up rowback.com code nlu back to the pod i have undying faith and trust in the both of you but going down that road a little bit a teeny tiny bit i was like where are tc and jim taking us today where are we going what are we doing here what are we doing here today my faith was the faith and trust was you know justified here by by within a couple holes very quickly uh but the the pulling up was just like whoa what are we doing here today yeah i think even on aaron like you can get you know you can get like all right there's shiskin cory whiting bay we've just talked about real quick tc can i just i want to butt this in of of if you read jim's book you figure this out pretty quickly but i'll say like we are afforded all of us here listening to this and all of us that uh you know have got to experience some of this and are able to share the tales from it is the the great fortune we have you mentioned this jim of of the twitter and instagram and the sharing of this like when you showed up at whiting bay for the first time you did not i imagine you'd never seen a picture of it i'd imagine maybe maybe you had maybe it's probably word of mouth of of uh you know in a kind of a secret network you're getting of that but all that to say like we're very fortunate all of you to be able to hear the tales and the places that uh that jim has been that are that are worth going because that was you other than you know your little cutouts from your magazines back in the 90s like it's just it's very very cool to have this kind of in stored away in just a couple easy easy to reach places for that can forever be referred to yeah i mean that's the great thing about social media i mean i just a lot of these places and you know i've been on twitter for since it started and you know get messages from people hey i'd really love for you to come by here this is you'd love this place i mean that's what happened with uh with averfall you know just um for one i mean just uh william who i i think maybe i don't think you met tron but has maybe corresponded with you he was the club captain several years ago he sent me a message on twitter he said i love your writing i love your your books so you you understand scottish golf i'd love for you to come by here sometime any way you can work it in and i was i'm one of the trying to get back to the airport um one trip i went there and um i'm like god almighty this is magical i mean and nobody knows about it nobody comes by here and so that's kind of yes i mean i find out through people just contacting me or you know now of course you know i'm i mean i'm so crazy i'll get on google maps and just and just throw google maps and just look for stuff like this looks like a golf course and just try to i mean seriously you find an area scotland and you you'll find one and you say man looks interesting what's the topography like and so i've done a lot of that and but people i've met have been you know whiting bay greg several years ago i mean i didn't it's i i didn't play whiting bay until probably honestly i have to admit probably four or five years ago and greg uh greg said hey i was playing shiskin and corey every time i came over in mockery bay another little course i love and um he said man you ought to go to whiting bay it's right down your alley he said of course he was right i mean after that what's that uh number three the little par three up the hill the green's about the size of a hubcap i mean it's just i just started laughing i'm like okay i understand so yeah i mean it's just word of mouth and um you know that's that's one of the things about this book i i these places need visitors to survive you know alberfoil needs visitors to survive more so than the places on air and even that's part of my mission is as much as i love writing about these places i want people to find out about them and take a little side trip to alberfoil and or take go over to whiting bay if you're going to go to aaron and but it's just it comes from all um and i can't i can't go to all the places people ask i know you guys are i know you must get email after email man could you guys please come by here on tour sauce and i know it's hard you want to you want to help people you can't do everything and you know um but you know every once in a while if you can work one in it turns out to be something you love then you know i'd like to try to help them so well we we heard stories when we were over on aaron of you you going to go search for lost golf courses out there yes how do you do well i love there's some good stuff in the book about that too like you just sitting there at this at this lady's kitchen table uh greg being like well greg you know greg i mean he stops we're going up this dirt road in pern mill which is sort of halfway between lakranza and shishkin and uh just single track dirt road through farmland you know where in the world are we going and um you know we come the road just goes right between these two houses like literally the houses are like on the edge of the road and this old lady's looking at her front door and greg says hold on stop i'm going to ask her where the golf course was and get out and you know she's looking at us like we're kind of half crazy and but she says yeah it's just it's just right up here you'll see the old golf house just another few hundred yards but yeah that i'm fascinated i sort of call it um golf course archaeology just you know aaron had 12 courses in you can debate the dates but in the in the early 1900s there were 12 courses on this island and i i just got in my mind i want to go to the site of all these courses and i want to write about it and try to find out what they were like and so i started several years ago when i started i had the idea for this book i started trying to collect photos of these old places and they really don't exist except on old postcards and so that became my an original idea for the book or the imagery in the book was collecting these old postcards i mean the only place in the world that you're going to find a photo of pern mill golf course which closed and probably existed from 1895 until 1940 and i think the war pretty much did it in is you're going to find it in a couple of these postcards that were made for tourism so i started collecting that and then when i several years ago greg took me we spent a day jake was with me my son and greg took us around uh to these sites we got he got i got him he got permission from the farmers you know they're all farmland now privately owned and it's just fascinating you can see how great these places would have been and i don't know like the one we corey cravey we spent um trying you would just literally die if you saw the side of this place i mean it's it's in it's like a cross between shishkin and whiting bay and um we the farmer let us go down and we we tried to we actually recreated recreated one of the photos from the this postcard from 1920 or so we got jake to stand where this guy was and it it's amazing to i i just to me that's fun i don't know why i just i guess some of my architecture background and just trying to to but it's also the fact that this tiny little island had 12 golf courses and y'all been around it y'all been there that's that's ridiculous i mean the fact that they've got they've got seven now is still ridiculous and uh it's just it's just it's And, um, that chapter was one of my favorites in the book, um, going to these sites and I'm still, honestly, I, I've that I'm thinking my next book, I may expand that chapter into a full blown book. Um, I've got people that I've met over there that are looking for other stuff that they, they know people that might have stuff in their attic or whatnot. And it's just, it's just fun, um, to try to, cause these were good golf courses and they were, they were clubs and, and, and the, the war did a man, the, the, what happened was in the, when the war started, they, they, the golf courses were closed. The government took them over for, um, plant crops, whatever you want to call it. And, uh, they never, some of them never came back. They just didn't recover. And that's, and that's really what happened to the ones on Aaron that are not there anymore. I mean, even Aaron, like it's, it's somewhere I've been there and I guess four times now. Um, I thought when I went with you, Jim, that, you know, like, oh man, this is such a cool place. You know, I'm probably not going to be back here for, I might be back here once more in my life. I've been three times since in the last four years. Um, and it's, but even Aaron, it's one of those things where it's like, we drove past lamb lash, uh, five times on this last trip. And I still haven't played lamb lash, or I still haven't played, uh, you know, Macri Bay, or I haven't played, uh, Uh, La Cranza and it's, you would love La Cranza. Yeah. I mean, yeah. But it's one of those things of like, there's just so many layers here to the West coast to where like, it's like, you could spend a lifetime, uh, taking fairies and just, and just going, you know, like there's like, it's, there's just so there's so much depth I think. And there's so many, it's truly a quest for a lifetime. And then that's before you even get, get too far out and there's all these other, I mean, shit. Even one of the, the, um. What is it? Great Cumbria, Millport. Yeah. The little course there. And then like, that's a, what a 10 minute ferry off the mainland. 10 minute ferry over to the island. The town is the little town of Millport is great. And it's a James braid course that literally has is untouched from since 1910 or whenever he designed it. Incredible. Uh, I've gotten to do that. I mean, you, and you don't know, you don't hear about those kinds of places and finding a braid course like that. But nobody has done anything to it and it's literally the way he laid it out. It's, it's just, it's like, I think I've called Aaron a living history museum of golf or of Scottish golf. And that's what it is to me because you've got so much variety. You've got links golf at Shishkin. You've got hillside golf at Whiting Bay. You've got Glenn Valley golf at Corey, which is just unbelievable. Brodick is kind of Parkland, but on the water and it's just all there. And it's, and it's all up there. It's all up and down the it's all over Scotland, but it's not especially all up and down the west coast. And like you say, you can always find something, uh, something new and different. And that's where I think, I think on our trip, like even, even for me, it was, Hey, we're not playing all links golf. We're playing a bunch of mountain golf or, or, you know, Parkland stuff. And, and Sally, like, I'll, I'll leave it with you, but just like how, how good that variety was, how, how much, how much of a perk and a feature that was not a bug. Yeah. What I love about playing links golf, there's a lot of things I love about it, but it's the, you know, creativity required in shots less, something less than the aerial game obstacles in, in weird places, funny bounces, having to use some creativity, not thinking as much about your golf swing, uh, and thinking about how the land is going to affect the shot. There's creative ways of getting a ball into a certain place and making sure it's moving the right direction. When it does land, all that is present in a lot of these places, right? You don't have to be by the sea for that. It's it's sometimes not as firm. But then you, you know, you find certain patches at Corey that you don't expect to be firm. And sure enough, like he had a little punch driver on a little short par four and it runs all the way over the green. Cause it's just, if you hit the right trajectory, you're going to get the features of the land and do all these things. And that I just, I get there and I, I just start picturing all these different shots, all the different clubs I can use. And I don't think about, is this, you know, seven iron gonna, you know, land one 88 or one 82. Like I do when I go play golf, you know, outside my door here in, uh, in, uh, uh, you know, in Jacksonville. So again, it's, it gets to that, like, dude, yeah, if you, if I was going for the first time, well, I want to, what do I want people to go experience, go experience links golf. But if you're looking, uh, to, to get past the, uh, the, you know, the breadth and depth of, of those offerings, uh, it, there's a lot, a lot to be found, um, and explored and experienced and, and some of these places too, like I, I think not specifically, you know, some of these kind of off the beaten pad places that are hard to get to maybe not as much. Yeah. It's hard to play 36 holes in a day, like at Turnberry and Troon, like you're just not going to do that. Like that's, that's how I'm getting old. That's just expensive. It's expensive. It's hard. It's hard. Something like, you know, we played what we play Shiskin and Whiting Bay on the same day. Is that, do I have that right? Like, and that didn't feel like too much at all because Shiskin's 12 holes Whiting Bay was a walk and it's 18 holes, but it's, you know, par 63 and it's not, uh, there's something to like. The days are long. And if you're looking to knock off a couple different experiences, knockoffs the wrong phrase. If you're going to, if you're looking to go enjoy some golf in a couple different places, experiencing two places in one day that aren't going to kill you might be a better day than experiencing one top, great 18 holes, 7,000 yard golf course. I agree with that. I mean, those, as much as I love Troon and Turnberry and, and these, these, these courses are hard and they will, they will beat you up. And I look, I think people should play them. And, and I'm not trying to discourage that they're, they're, they're, they're brilliant, but you know, you, it wears you down and you can't do it. Like you said, you can't do 36. I mean, you know, I've always said like, I'll do this when I go over in a few weeks and I, you know, I'm, I'm in my fifties. I mean, I play, um, I'll walk Corey and Shiskin that's 21 holes. I'm not sure there's a better day of golf than that, honestly, in the world, uh, you know, 21 holes, the morning at Corey, the afternoon, have lunch at Shiskin go into the, uh, the pub there at the hotel after, after you're done at Shiskin and you're set and you're not. And you feel, I think I've written about this and I've talked to you about this Tron. You almost feel energized after that. I don't know how to explain it. You know what I mean? You, you, you're not, you feel like, man, I'm just, I'm energized. I just, I don't know. You're not, you're not, it gives you energy. It doesn't, it doesn't take it away. And, and, and I don't know, it's just, um, I totally agree. And I, and just back real quick, I used to be a little bit of a snob. I was a little bit of a snob. course and i'm like oh my god what am i what have i been denying myself here you know you've got these places the boat of garden these just brilliant gallery yeah yeah but just the stuff is just crazy good and it's not and i understand i mean i look i default to the links stuff as well but there's so much variety there in the mountain golf and the heathland golf and um you know so yeah i don't be don't be discouraged by the course not being on the ocean because you know you're liable the views that say somewhere like boat of garden are just just beyond belief so and aberful you just been to aberful i mean some of the pictures you took at aberful good god i mean they're some of the best photos i've ever seen you you take to be quite honest that was the fourth golf course i played that day and i went out thinking all right i'm gonna have a look around here you the second hole is like oh yeah okay now i see why and that's not even up you know up the hill yet and then i get up to five six seven and i'm like holy shit jim you undersold this place yeah you took a picture on the fifth that i just it looked like it could be on the cover of you know golfer's journal or something just i mean that was just with my life i know i know i know i know i know i that's what i'm saying it's just it's ridiculous and aberful i don't even know what it is now 20 pounds 25 i don't know um but yeah that was the only person on the course yeah and it's you know the sun's going down and you're looking out towards loch lomond and all that stuff but jim i think like the thing that and this comes through in your writing a lot and that's why i love this book so much is because you it's about the journey and it's about like the act of traveling not necessarily the act of getting to a destination or you know playing this place and checking the box it's like no like i hey i came on this trip to play this golf course and here's the six other golf courses i played along the way that i wasn't even expecting to play and i think that there's something about the dun aberdeens and the you know the shiskins or the aberfoils that they're not going to beat you up and they allow you to have the energy to go travel and to you know you know like like like jim when we went to uh isle of seal of course yeah yeah you know stopping through oban or um like i mean some of these places we're not even playing but you're just like you're you're so energized and you're so excited to explore and and for the drive and for the little sandwich places along the way or little pubs because you feel like you know like you're not i think when you're playing the big championship 36 whole days there's just not a lot of energy for other stuff and you gotta you know you gotta you gotta leave that in i mean you know you're a bit of a foodie but you know the food is wonderful in scotland i mean that that green seafood hut in oban that i know you've been to that we've been to yeah it's right the i mean the stuff has just come out of the water about an hour before you eat it probably i mean it's just it and it's wonderful and it's just a little shack on this near the ferry terminal and yeah you could spend a day walking around oban and just sitting and looking at stuff and so yeah i mean i you give your self that's part of my i try to in both of my books the like even when revelation comes that was one of the blessings of that trip where i was over there for such a long time was i didn't really have a schedule i mean i just i would get up and i would you know i would be going like okay i'm i'd have a destination like i'm i'm going up to durness but i'm along the way what am i going to see on the way to durness and if i saw a sign like i saw a sign for isle of sky i think on that and went over there and uh played the course uh the nine hole course there that's wonderful uh you know so just if you're able and i know there yeah right yeah and it just uh you know it's uh if you're lucky enough to be able and i granted i'm not going to say it was luck was involved but just because there was a terrible reason i went over there for the trip i was fortunate to be able to stay for so long and i really just did what i wanted and i would go find i'd see a sign and i i knew there was a golf course i mean gare lock and i didn't plan to go to gare lock or lock heron or um i was just on the way to durness and i didn't really plan to play ray and wick i was just on the way from durness down to brora and um but i i'm like okay and i didn't even have you know that's the beauty of going at certain times of the year is you don't have to and the other you don't have to plan too far ahead and places you can just you can just drive up on the day and and play you don't have to write a letter underrated element yeah of like yeah yeah just being able to rock up versus you know hey if you don't get a tea time at dornick or or you know or or uh or troon or somewhere you're you're sol for for 18 months but it's you know it's yeah it's truly like all right like oh you know what like this place looks awesome let's just pull over the side of the road and play it you know the day i played ray golf course i was like oh my god i'm going to play it i'm going to play it i'm going to which is a wonderful braid course up north almost to john of groats i saw one other guy on the course a guy played through me on the second hole or third hole i remember talking to him for a minute didn't see another soul out there and this is a fabulous golf course i mean it's a james braid another one of these braids it's really untouched and there's an experience to be found in these places and a lot of it it you know like you say i mean it takes a lot of the pressure off the travel part of it too because you know y'all know you have to you have to book turnberry and troon and the oak you have to book these things your field year a year ahead of time at least and a lot of these places you can just say you can just show up and play i mean as much as denarity gets a lot of more play now i looked at the t-sheet the other day and there was just you could you could have played any almost any time so yeah let's kind of work our way out from the coast let's go up and down the airshirt coast even down to we can include uh you know stuff a little bit farther south of there as well uh and then kind of work our way out we've talked a lot about aaron talk a little bit more about kintyre and then we can talk kind of work our way out to the northwest and talk about all these other places along the way because i think it's it's one of those things like if somebody's gonna do like i feel like we're giving people ingredients for a trip all right here's you know here's the here's your stock here's your base for uh airshirt you know whether it's uh so like like like jim what's your what's your let's say you were just going to airshare what what are your can't miss non-negotiables presswick being the top of the list there presswick would be the top and probably western gales and um there's a public course in air called air bell all that i really like i would add that it's just to get so you can kind of see a true public course i like barassi you know i would i would they're bogside and um bogside a couple of those made my made my eclectic or my dream 18 i saw that i saw that i was happy i was proud of you for that but there's just so much there but i mean to me you got to play presswick the true i would say the true public courses are great uh lock green and um what is the other one darley i think the other one's called there's uh so you can now they are so popular and they're so booked up but you can get a tea time you can get off there uh but i would say presswick you have to play in western gales it's hard i love western gales yeah it's hard to argue of course yeah yeah it's hard it's gonna be like it'll beat you up a little bit especially if the wind's up it is hard you know trune i think trune has moved up honestly in my estimation over the years it used to have kind of a reputation of this dour you know place that i don't see it that way i think the last open the last couple of opens have i think it's i think it's solidified its place as far as i'm concerned and the rota but i i yeah i think you had to start with press and oh i i hate to leave this press with saint nicholas too price i would i was gonna that's what i got press at saint nicholas is great and i've got some good i've met some wonderful people there it is a historic club and it's got some great golf holes and uh it's not very expensive i think it's it's probably 70 pounds to play um and it's it's a it's a brilliant golf course so i i didn't i'm glad i i was about to say that but press with press at saint nicholas and then you can't go wrong i mean you you want to add um you know the turnberry you know it's hard to play turnberry so expensive but um you know um there's another course uh well you can we're getting kind of out of the range but you know further down port patrick and strong rare are not that far past turnberry you could almost you could almost work them in um i love those are headlands like more kind of down the coast uh saint madan's port patrick and rare more kind of they are up on the yeah yes there are more headlands um strong rare is kind of a mixture of headlands and sort of heathland and it's a it's braids last course but that little area if you can get down there and play uh saint madan and and strong rare and port patrick attack that to the being an air sure um it's not a i mean it's not more than an hour hour and a probably hour and a half drive to get down there and port patrick is a stunning little seaside town um so that that was a place that uh i i think after i left you that when we went five or six years ago um or however now whenever we did the film it's been about three or three years ago now um that's where i went after i left you at um at uh on aaron i went down to port patrick and loved it um so yeah there's just it's a cliche but you can't it's hard to go wrong but i would i would i would never skip presswick that would be the one that i if i was going to be in air sure um i just i just wouldn't skip presswick presswick's such a welcoming club too so friendly it's gonna be the you know it's this historic um you know kind of blue blood place and you think and and i found your field to be the same thing like you show up and like you truly are a member for the day and they like it's a just a wonderful dining room with that big window looking out and it's it's just a really hospitable group of people and a hundred percent so friendly and for such a historic club i mean well they treat everybody this way but i mean i've been treated so well there over the years and i've got a couple of i've got a really good friend who's one of the main caddies there who has been great to me and i just love it because i like the i love the history but the holes are great and the course is in always such pristine condition i mean i'm not a so spotless and perfect i take my hat off to them i mean it's it's perfect links condition it's a golf mecca you can't but you know start with press if you if you play presswick i think you understand golf yeah like you understand how it developed and why it developed and and brings you back to the soul of it we're talking about it on our pod the other day we think that they should have a uh a women's open at presswick the coolest thing ever well they've had uh they did have the british amateur there within the last 15 years maybe i think that was the last big thing they had was the british ham that you know you've been out there they added some t's i mean they've made it as long as they can but it's still even with these t's these ridiculous t's they put in in a few places i think it's still 68 6900 at the most and the ball row i mean it just you the ball just rolls forever and ever and ever if you're going in the right direction you could hit a i mean i i have hit and i have hit literally a 450 yard drive at presswick on the 13th i mean on the 12th the par 5 and uh i'm not making this up i mean it was just dead down wind and i just nailed it it got up in the jet stream and my caddy he's like he jumped up and he said he said you're not going to believe where this ball is going to end up and i think that that par 5 is 540 or 550 and i'm not a i'm an old man now but i i had a wedge into it i mean i think now granted if you're playing the other direction you're gonna you're gonna be lucky to reach the green in five shots but uh that's just that to me is and that's just the fun of playing in scotland i mean you just got to laugh it off you got to take what the conditions give you that could be anything when we were at denver in april we had hail blowing sideways and then the sun came out and then it was rain and then the wind was blowing 25 miles an hour and we were just laughing the whole time and you know you just gotta if you if you're if you're not able to withstand that kind of thing then you don't need to you don't need to go over play you need to stay here and play need not apply yeah yeah uh what all right so barassi i've never played there i've heard it can be polarizing because there's a lot of dog legs right like they rerouted some of it and it's well it's got it's got 27 holes the original nine which i love and i can't think of what they call that original nine now not hillside something but um and it's but they've they they combined at some point they did redid some of it and combined it with some of the other 18 it reminds me it's got some holes by the railway uh just like troon what's the railway hole at troon 11 maybe uh yeah um there's a couple of holes like that that are really good i i like barassi and i have to admit i'm i get i get influenced by just how friendly people are sometimes the club is so friendly and um the general manager there is a great guy and he's really trying to build it up that's why it is that's why you travel right yeah it's not just about the golf course well they've got a walker cup room there they have there's been four walker cup players that were members at barassi you'll love this pool of troon gordon sherry was was one of them um the the great scott who never quite made it um i try i can't think of that but he's the one that jumps to mind he the guy that went to the golf course and he's the one that jumps to mind he's the one the scottish amateur maybe in 95 or something and then just kind of faded out but um or when the british amateur um and uh but anyway they've got a great sort of history there i i love it i think it's got it reminds me of troon it's not um it's got some quirky holes too and but i i probably lean toward more just because of how friendly the people are there what about glasgow gales that's kind of right there next to western gales i've never played that one i have not played that one i have not played that one i have not played that one i have to admit um it's one of the few in airshirt that i have not played i have heard nothing but good things about it it's a fairly traditional club from what i understand i've talked to people that have played it but um i have not played that one i probably need to get by there and then sally i know you've played dun donald i've never played it i've watched it a lot on the uh you know whether the women's scottish or or you know kind of a just like kyle phillips right kyle phillips yeah it's a it's a it's a fine golf course again kind of just flies in the spirit of almost everything we've talked about for the last 55 minutes of yeah it's not overly showy it's it's not um it's just um yeah it's a modern golf course it's not contrived it's not a bad golf course it's just not it's really really really really hard to execute um and that's where i would say like castle stewart's in a class of its own in terms of like blending a a modern lynx course into the natural scottish landscape like castle stewart feels modern and it's not in this region to be clear but everything else has just kind of felt like a weird made for americans kind of experience and that i it's just so hard to recommend something like that when i feel like you're truly missing out on the purpose of traveling to scotland when you end up at some of these places in king's barns i still think clears the bar for me like it it is um i know not your favorite tc but um dun donald is not in the same category as king's barns if you ask me like it doesn't have the scenery yeah it falls woefully short of of king's barns to the point where um when somebody has done donald i get a lot of emails and questions from friends and whatnot of here's our itinerary it always has done donald on it and i i feel bad like for the people at dun donald when i say like i it's like i would sub something else in i if i was you i would do something different you're gonna have a more memorable experience uh probably doing something that's a little bit off the beaten path well i'll tell you along those lines i mean i've played king i played king's barns two weeks after it opened believe it or not and i just uh i'm not i don't lean toward those courses but i i i understand people that love them and i respect that i'm really excited for our mutual friend uh rob collins doing the new the new street course at dornick i don't know what rob does with something like that i mean you've you've hit the nail on the head uh solly it's it's hard to one of the hardest things is to make something look old or like it's supposed to be there it takes a really special talent um and i think rob can pull it off i don't know what he's i know they're working on it and but i'll be i'll be excited to get up there to see how because you know when you do these new courses i mean even mac dune which a lot of people love and i and i like um i i it's probably unfair criticism but it's it's hard to make them feel like denarity does or or macro hannish does or um you know or presswick it's just and maybe that's just the fact that something that's been there 130 years is out it's gonna be you know it's just gonna be it's just gonna be different you know but uh it'll be interesting i'll be love i can't wait to see what rob does up there and um i can't wait to get up there and and i've not played dornick in a few years but i want to play his his new course whenever it gets done it's it's yeah it's it's you know a lot of the quirk that comes from these these old courses is just like well yeah what do you of course it's a blind shot we didn't have like bulldozers to move the you know but now if you do it you're kind of like are you being a little too cute like yeah we have the ability to kind of do what we want now and it's just that charm factor of that's that's a modern course really it's not um yeah it's it's hard to execute um that when yeah as much as i love like i love blind shots like i love the fourth hole at denarity but if somebody tried to build the fourth hole at denarity now that yeah people would say they're out of their mind they'd say you're crazy you're this is a joke what are you doing but but when you're there you're like man this is just this is pure fun i mean it's just you know and but and it's it and you stand up there and you get on top of that dune you're like this is perfect this is a perfect green site but it's also hard to create a lot of those places you know were laid out where they found the green sites and they just worked out from there, you know, like, this is a great place to put a green. Now let's figure out where we can, how we can get to it. And then everybody's a lot like that. And a lot of these courses we've talked about, it's just, it's no matter how good of an architect you are, you can't recreate something that's a natural occurrence. It just, it just, you can try and some people are successful at it. You know, Rob's been successful at it. Other architects have, but it's still, there's still a difference. Again, like the fourth or the ninth of denarity with this, this green down in this sort of natural punch bowl. When you build that, it's just not going to look the same. And it's just, maybe it's the fact that it's been weathered for 130 years and it just, that's the way it's always been. But yeah. The, uh, all right, let's, we've talked a lot about Aaron. I feel like we've covered down on Aaron and, and our, our videos, you know, with you, the tourist sauce videos, like there's, there's, there's plenty, I think there's plenty to go on with Aaron. It's only, it's only a 55 minute, hour long ferry ride over there. Like people, I would encourage people like it's, it's sound like it sounds. And then when, when you're over there, it feels like going to like, you're in Hawaii or something like that. Like it's, it's on the edge of the earth. Again, it's, it's, it's less than an hour ride to get over there. So. When you guys proposed this trip, it was like, all right, we land on the same day we're taking a fair. It was like, it seemed like too, too much on paper and experience. It was like, oh, like I can go play golf right now. You know, and we did, it was not, it was nothing, honestly. Yeah. So, and so, all right. So going like, uh, skipping over Aaron, cause we've, we've talked a lot about that, taking the ferry into clown egg, or even if you were just going to take the ferry into Campbell town, uh, let's, let's talk about done. Avery, macro Hanish, Mac dunes, Caradale G, uh, like I, basically, this stuff there on the mull of Kintyre and then we'll move outward from there. Uh, Jim, it's not, you know, like between macro Hanish done average. It's like, that's, I mean, Sally, like that was a perfect 36 whole day for you guys. Like it was, it was on the back end of a lot of travel and everything. And you guys got down to done Avery and you were like, oh my gosh, like this. Yeah. I mean, macro Hanish, full length golf course, going to beat you up a little bit, you know, tough golf course, 18 hole full, you know, not, not 7,000 yards, but in the six is easily like traditional golf in the way that we typically think about it. And you get the denarity and it's a par 60 remind me, 66, something like that. 66, 66, one par five under 5,000 yards. And it, it, it was, it w it was awesome. Like it was such a great 36 whole day. We got there thinking, maybe we'll play a few holes. We'll play 11 holes or both. Well, you know, we'll, we'll mess around with our own, our own routing of we kind of really didn't even say this out loud to each other, but I think we were just all like, oh, I think we're playing all 18 here today. Cause this is just an awesome night for it. And it, I don't know, man, I, I feel like I've said this in a lot of different content we've done recently, but there's just something to like a 280 yard simple par four. That is fun for everyone. I am almost exactly scratch golfer right now. And like there's a challenge to be had in that for me. And as soon as I teed off on that golf course, I'm like, oh my, my dad would love this place. Like he would love it. Like we would have so much fun there. And like the, our experiences would be very different together at macro Hanish in terms of like love of that golf course. Uh, but like did Avery, I'm like, dude, I, I, none of the people I like and respect would not like this. It, uh, it, it's just so fun to just hit random shots and get out of your own brain on how far, how far the ball is supposed to go and like the natural use of the terrain and just the beauty of that place. It was, uh, everything you described it to be. And it led to one of the most, you know, we hit the jackpot on weather, but it led to one of the most special nights of golf. I, that's just a night. It's up in my top 10 of like, I will never forget like the images of that night. You listen, I love the place. It's my favorite place in the world. And, um, I was so nervous that you guys were not going to get to play. You were up at like three o'clock in the morning. Yes. Like, well, I was, I knew that you were playing macro Hanish. And I know macro Hanish can be hard, especially when the wind's blowing and it, and it's, it's, it's a, it's a tough golf course. Uh, and I'm like, man, they're going to be too tired to go to the narrative. And I knew you guys were going, you were texting me, you're going to the hotel. I'm like, they're going to get in the hotel, have two tenants and just not get up. And I know, I was worried too, Jim, I was on the ferry out to Barra and I was like, man, we got it. And so I, I can't, I think I even texted. You saw it before you left us. You said something like, well, we may just play the first few holes. And I think I said, you've got to play at least get out to 11, but try to play all 18 if you can. And I knew you would love it. It's just brilliant golf and it's beautiful. And the shots that you play, you talk about these short par fours. I'm going to get, I'm going to get like a preacher here for a minute, but you know, you, they're two 80 or two 60, or there's par threes that are too, you know, the six hole was a 280 yard par three, which is harder than some of the par fours. But there, if you look at this, and I've played these holes so much now, I know the strategy of them. There's mounds in the fairway. Like if you hit the mound the wrong way, the ball's going to stop. It's not going to go anywhere. If you hit the right side of the mound, you're going to roll them down to the green, like the ninth. I mean, if you, it just, there's so much, you know, even for somebody that's a great player, like you guys are, um, you get on that 11th tee and you think, well, what am I going to, is there, there's still strategy involved in it? Cause you, I've got to fly this mound or I've got to, I've got to land it here to get it to run down on the green or drivers really too much. Do I try to hit a two or a three iron or a hybrid or something? I don't know. The, the variety there, um, it's just endless and it does not beat you up. I mean, it's not easy. I mean, um, by any means, I mean, I think I played in a lot of competitions there and, you know, you know, something, 68 is a good score, you know, 68 will usually, usually win one thing they've done in the last few years. And I'm David McBrain who you guys met and Tron's met a wonderful, wonderful man. Who's been the greens, the greens, they call them the greens convener for about 25 or 30 years. And he's just, he's, he's gotten some new equipment. He's cut back some of the rough to the point where it's still a penalty, but you can find your ball. And I've had this discussion with David a few years ago. He's like, you know, why do we want people to lose a ball on every hole? I said, that that's no fun for anybody. So now they've cut some of the rough down to where you can get in there and find your ball and hack it out. Or maybe if you get lucky, even advance it. And, but yeah, the fairways are wide enough and the wind changes direction. You got so much direction on the whole, so much variety on the holes, punch bowl greens. Um, just, um, I knew you'd love it. And I got, in fact, every one of the guys that were there, Neil and big, um, even Ben, and they all texted me separately. And Cody, Cody did too, just individually like, man, this place, thank you for making us make sure we, maybe y'all picked up on the fact that I was getting nervous that y'all weren't going to play. I don't know, but I'm, I'm, I'm so glad I was so relieved. And I think I texted you trying, you may have been on the ferry to Harris or somewhere, but I said, you know, you said they loved it. And I said, yeah, I've heard from all of them individually. And so, yeah, I think you can see, why I've built it up so much over the years and, um, it's just a very unique place in golf and the people, the clubhouse, it's just everything about it. This is perfect for me. That's why I've written about it so much. 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Yeah. Like you will not regret it. It is. You'll, you'll, you'll, you'll see pictures of it later and we'll have regretted not being able to, to experience it. It'll energize you. Love to play it again. Yeah. It's kind of, I can see why you love to play it on repeat too. Cause it was like, I felt this way from watching when revelation comes. I'm just like, oh, that's a golf course. I gotta go see like those shots look, look so fun. And I don't even know what the hole is there, but that's a shot I want to hit. And it was, uh, I've been thinking about that place a lot. I think there's something with like, like, like let's say you're a good player and like, man, like, all right, like I really want to break par or I really want to, like, I want to see how good I can shoot. And like, that's, that's such an interesting, like going and playing offense on a course like that. There's some little spots that can just trip you up. And it's, it's such a good mental exercise of getting the ball hole. It's all relative. Yeah. How about the 10th grade? You can make it 10 on 10. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think, I think you were one under one when we came into that hole one day and wound up walking off with a 10, I think on the hole. It just, uh, I, I don't know. I'm, I'm very biased about it, but I, I it's when I will say this, where else have you been that it's like Denaverty? I mean, there's, you know, it's just, there's nothing really like it. And, um, you know, it was laid out in 1889 by the original members. I mean, it wasn't an architect that laid it out. It was just, it was local men, you know, people from Campbell town that farmers and stuff. And I think they knew what they were doing. And I remember, I'll never forget when we drove in there trying that first trip a few years ago and we're driving and on the road on the 17th green, and you just literally just started laughing and just like, I can't believe this, you know, we're, we're driving between the green and the river. And this is, is this a real hole? I'm like, yes. And it just, where else have you seen a hole like that? That has a river right in front of the green. And it's just. It's just, I don't know. I love it. I'll never get tired of it. I play when I go over there. And when I go this time, I'll play every day. And, um, you know, I may even, I may even play 36 one day. Cause I, you know, there's a couple of climbs out there, you know, climbing up the 12th and climbing up the hill. Yeah. That's a, that one's that that's a tough climb up 12, but it's not, it's not hard to walk. I would say in the big scheme of things, it's just got a, it's got a couple of climbs that are that get you, but you can, you can handle that in a, in a, in a round. So, um, yeah, um, I can't say enough about it. I've written about it just to the point that people probably get tired of it, but I just, I find something new every time. I mean, I've just, I'm thinking of another story about it and there's just so much and the members are just, they've, they've treated me like family and, um, I can't wait to be back in a few weeks. Well, the, um. And I think Macro Hanish, Macro Hanish Dunes, we've talked about that. I mean, like, how would you, you guys have both played Macro Hanish Dunes. I have not. How would you sum that up? And it sounds like it's gotten better over the years as well. Like they've, they've done some good work. I'll just real quick. I think it's a good golf course. I, it just, um, some of the walks and I understand why they had to lay it out the way they did, but some of the walks from T to green just are so disheartening. Um, and maybe that's not a fair criticism, but when you've played Macro Hanish and every T is literally two. Steps from the, the other, the next green, you'd be like, you get on some of those holes at Mac Dunes and you're like, God almighty, when, when are we going to get there? But it's look, it's beautiful. And it's got some really cool green. So you, you're a much better player than me. It's a hard, it's a very hard golf course. I, I think. I, I experienced it on, you know, it was a, I did the double dip Mac ranch and macro Mac Dunes back in 2017. And I had kind of a tough weather day when I did it. And I wish I, I wish my memory was stronger in it other than I remember. Being pretty heavily criticized at the time. And I remember having fun. I remember like, you know, I think the sun came out when I was out there and it, uh, to your point, I've looked at it back on, on the map since the gym. And it is like, yeah, they're, they're there too. I assume it's SSI or SSI related reasons as to why, you know, the, the, the T to green walks are, are bigger than they are and it feels it's bold. It's big. It's, it's, it's a little manufactured. The greens are crazy and it's just a, it's a different, you know, not a, just a traditional laid out. There's links, but like, it's not, it's not the castle course. Right. It's, it's a different, it's David McClay kid. It's a different brand of, of DMK, uh, than, than that. And I, I, I would recommend it. I mean, it's a, it's a strong golf course. If you ask me to your exact point, it is not a traditional easy walk. Uh, here's, here's, you know, that, that is part of the, I think it's a totally fair criticism, Jim. I think that's, that's part of the charm of these golf courses is like, Hey, the origin of the game used to be. You teed up the ball within two club links of the whole of the actual cup prior, like then eventually we ended up with tee boxes and moving away from it. But like big walks to tee boxes are not a natural thing when it comes to the game of golf, when it comes to the history of it. And, uh, the farther we drift away from that, I think the worse off we are, cause I think golf is meant to be like, just go, you know, hit it, find it, hit it again and keep moving and keep rolling. Yeah. It's that's the thing about it. It's just, it, you know. A lot of these places we're talking about, I mean, hell you hit over the, the next tee, you hit over the green, you just played in some cases. And I love that when you're walking, especially it just, the, the rhythm of that is just fun. And, um, it gets, but I I'm, I'm like you, I always tell people to people ask me and I say, yeah, play it. Uh, now I would play Mac or Hannes three times to one for Mac dunes. That's just me, but I definitely, people, and the people are very, very friendly that run the course and it's, it's, it's worth it. Uh, to, to do it and they're, you know, they're building allegedly another 18. I've, I've, I've been out to the site and a lot of it's kind of in farmland. It'll be interesting to see how that one turns out. Uh, there's not as much doing land left, but it's supposedly it's well, they've been talking about it for five or six years, but I heard recently that it's starting to get a little bit more movement. I think having some more critical mass down in that area would only help. Right. Yeah. Campbelltown is cool. Like, it's just, I don't know. It's just an interesting, like you got the big runway there. And, and you know, you're what, 20 miles to Northern Ireland across, across the water. It's just a crazy kind of just piece of geography. And then, so Jim, from there we like Caradale, like, how would you sum up Caradale? It's just, it's kind of like a little bit more rustic than, you know, it's more headland, more rustic. You get the views out to Aaron, but like, and it's a tough drive up, up from Campbelltown, but it's also like, I think. If you're making that drive and you have a spare two or three hours, it's not to be missed. Now, everybody that I've sent to Caradale has loved it. It's very quirky. It's the kind of stuff I love. I think the day that you and I played there, you said something to the effect of this is one of the most fun rounds of golf I've ever played in my life. When we got, when we got done you know, that first hole was just straight uphill par three. And then when you get up on that second tee, looking down, the second hole is just brilliant. And you're looking straight out to Aaron and across the Kilbrannon sound and it's just one after another. And it's these weird greens that are kind of cut into the side of hills and, uh, kind of like Corey has a couple and, um, you know, the, the six hole we've talked about, you and I've talked about, I've written a story about the sick. Well, it's in the book. Um, a lot of it's about the six hole, one of the best holes you'll ever play. And, um, just this crazy green that you were just busted out laughing when you, when you saw it, when we were there. And you're just like, I can't, this is just incredible. And, um, like you said at the time, I mean, nobody would, nobody in their right mind would build something like that, but that's the way it's been for 120 years. And, you know, they've had the same greens keeper for 42 years, Robert, and, but it's, it's a, it's a, and he, he takes care of it by himself. It's a little bit, I would even say it's a little bit more rustic than, or a good bit more than denarity, but I love it. And the people that people that go there love it. And, um, you know, if you, if you're the kind of. Kind of guy that gets caught up on having greens that are 10 or 11 on the stint meter. And this is not for you. I mean, you just turn this podcast off. Yeah. Yeah. It's not, it's not for you. I mean, you, you, it's a different kind of golf. It's one that I love. And I think it, I think it's a, still a, a challenge. I mean, it's still, you're still, you still have to get the ball in the hole. I mean, and so, but yes, I, I always tell people to try to get by Caradale. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, I think it's probably 35 minutes, 40 minutes up from Campbell town up to one of the widest roads and in the universe, but there won't be much traffic is the good part of it. But I think, uh, yeah, we, I think when we took that trip for the, for the film on when revelation comes, I, I got, I came away thinking it was one of your favorite places you'd ever been. Yeah. Some of the strongest holes on the trip. I thought. Yeah. I think so. All right. Gia is that one? Have you been there or is that, I have, I have played it. I would go over and eat at the boathouse restaurant right on the water. It's a, it may even have a Michelin star. I don't, if it doesn't, it ought to have one, uh, you would, uh, and then play this. It's a very rustic nine hole course. There's a guy that takes care of it when he has time, but I enjoyed it. I thought it was fun. Um, it's got some couple of good holes and you're playing golf on an island. In Scotland. So, uh, but I would not, that would not be one that I would build a trip around or, but if you had, if you, if you were going, I would recommend going over to the problem of going over to Gia is, um, the ferry is so weird. The ferry is so weird. Like it, like it, the last ferry is like, well, you can't, you can't even, I think the last ferry leaves at six o'clock or five 30 coming back. So even if you're going there to eat, you've got to eat a late lunch. Right. And a late tea. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, and, uh, so that's, that, that's what now you can't stay out there. There's a, there's a hotel or two, but, um, and I, I love the little island, but I, that's not one that I, I don't even, I don't put it in the carrot L tier of, of things at all. Okay. Uh, and then Isla, like you're, you're staring out at Isla Jura from, you know, from, uh, macro Hanish there and you got the peaks and all of that. It blows my mind that there's only one golf course on Isla. and that's what they're used yeah they're used to be more there i think there was three at one point and two of them closed the same sort of story as aaron uh the mockery i've played the old course three or four times and loved it it had 18 or 19 blind shots i've not played the new they redid it completely in uh within the last six or seven years i think um and i everybody that i've talked to that's been out there loves it and says it's great and i'm sure it is i i i think they got rid of some of the blind stuff but it's uh every i have to talk to somebody recently that have been out there and loved it you know it's a the there's seven to still there's seven whiskey distilleries out there i believe that's right so it's a great place to go and spend a day or two play the course go visit beaumont ardbeg i mean these distilleries are fun uh things to do and just the way the craftsmanship that goes in to making this stuff i'm fascinated by anything that people you spend so much time trying to perfect and and it's an art form i love and i so i love taking those tours and so i think it's i definitely think it's worth going out there um i've not as again i've not played what i'm calling the new course but everybody that i've talked to loves it and i love the old one was one of my favorites i thought it was it was just one of the most bizarre things in the world but they've they've they've they've softened it up a good bit uh in terms of the quirkiness from what i understand um and then we're not going to talk about ard finn on this one that's kind of the only course ard finn just missed it just missed out on my top 18 in the book tron just i had it on the list but just couldn't quite i think you know a four four months of your mortgage payment for a round of golf is a little bit a little bit too much for me but yeah yeah uh call colin say is out that that way uh that is one i love that's pretty far afield it's a lot like i don't know yeah you gotta be pretty oh yeah you gotta be now you you gotta stay a couple of nights if you're going out there because the ferry's on i think the ferry only runs well you have to because the ferry doesn't go every day it's like a tuesday and thursday maybe um i can't but i love the course reminds me of iona it's that kind of very similar type of course um and i wrote about it a lot and wouldn't revelation comes but i if you're if you're looking for an adventure i'd go i'd love the colin say hotel you would dearly love it i know how you are about hotels it's got i think it's got eight rooms the restaurant they just cook whatever they've caught that night you know oysters and you know langoustines and what what mussels what whatnot wonderful little place and you sit kind of sit out in the back garden and eat your dinner looking out at the water so i love colin say but that that is a commitment of that's at least a it's that's almost honestly that's almost a three-day commitment to to do yeah yeah yeah we're at that part of the pod yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and yeah iona we talked about i mean that that's a that's probably a two day commitment to do with getting out you know getting out all the way there that's a couple ferries from from oban or you know i guess if you're on the isle of mull um get out there but yeah like some of these islands there's not that you know there's just not that much golf they're so remote and they're they're pretty vast you know yeah i mean i own a we i love and i know you love it but you know we did it well we sort of did it today we we we crashed the car but um you know it's you can you can we just we didn't crash it we got a flat tire i mean it just uh and every time i go by the quick fit in oban i think about you honestly i just i usually post a picture that says quick fit the official tire distributor of no laying up But the roads going down, I mean, Finley McDonald, our mutual friend, will tell you, I mean, the roads are just terrible. So you have to, we were even, even that, I won't belabor that story, but, you know, we were even trying to look out for potholes. Like we were, I was, I was on the lookout for them and I didn't see this one. And it just, they're just, they're just right on the edge of the road and they're almost, they'll just destroy your, your car. So you gotta, that's part of it too. I mean, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta take that into account, you know. This is the perfect time to tell you about our friends at East Sands Golf. East Sands helps bridge the gap between playing the most famous courses like Royal Troon and discovering the hidden gems of Western Scotland that can make a golf trip truly special. Haley and Nick, friends of ours, they built East Sands specifically to help golf sickos put together the perfect trip across Great Britain and Ireland or wherever you want to take your trip. 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You know, Oban's kind of the center of the, you know, kind of like the gateway out to a lot of these last islands we'll talk about. Just, you know, Bembecula, Isle of Harris, South Uist, all of those. But Oban, like I've dreamed. Driven by Glenn Cruton before, the home of Bobby McIntyre and his dad's the greenkeeper there. I've never played it. And, yeah. It's a tough little golf course. It's very tight. It's very hilly. You can see why Bob plays the way he does. You can see why he's very, he controls his driver really well, at least from what it looks like to me. Because you got to there. I mean, it's extremely tight. It's got some good holes. It's not my favorite, but it's because it's, it's really hard to, well, I mean, it's, it's so hard to walk, you know, It's not one of those courses I see it. I'm like, Oh, I want to play there. It's kind of like, ah, okay. That looks, that looks tough. No. But when you see some of the holes, like there's a couple of the par threes, they're just stunning, but to get to them, I don't know. But no, then the club's very friendly, you know, but it's, it's worth stopping by there and having a beer and playing if you want to, but just be prepared that. But, um, like if you were asking me, I'd tell people to play Isle of seal before Glenn Cruton. I love Isle of seal. I mean, it's not an old golf course either. They know it out. What in the eighties or nineties? Yeah, it was the late eighties and, um, laid out by local guys, but wonderful sort of Heathland, uh, lock side, a Bayside course, um, you know, cost you 10 pounds to play. I think it's all day. It's 15. Um, so. So that's just, it's just more, it's a little bit more fun to me and it's E and it's easy to walk. I mean, you could walk it twice and not feel, you wouldn't feel anything. You'd be, you'd be, you know, let's go out from, uh, let's go, let's, let's just take the big ferry out from, from Oban to, you know, we'll pass, pass by, uh, Isle of mall and, and call and rum and Tyree and all that and go out to, like I played Barra finally, it was, it was another one. I was laid out in the early nineties that not really like, um, I was expecting it to be more like Iona as far as just that, that, you know, that kind of loamy McCare soil and, you know, and it, and it wasn't, it was more of just more of a mud, uh, rocky kind of, you know, spectacular little golf course. But I think Askernish was worth the trip in and of itself out to South Uist and, and, you know, RSK and all of that, I think. But, um, it was, I was expecting it to be a lot more, uh, just found, I guess, of, of, found's not the right word. I was expecting it to be a lot more like I had to squint to see the golf course and it was in really good shape and much more, um, just like it was, it was much more defined than I was anticipating it being. The, the greens at Askernish are some of the most fun, wildest greens I've ever played in my life. I don't know how you feel about it, but they're just crazy. And you can play off mounds and just into punch bowls. And I, I love Askernish. I mean, if you're asking if it's worth the effort to get out there, a hundred percent, it is. I agree with you. Uh, it's, it's, it's just a very unique place. And if you're going out, I know you guys didn't, I don't think y'all, you guys had time to get up to Isla Harris, but, um, you drive up, um, there's one ferry up around, um, I can't think of the little island. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that you can, you can take across there and go play Isla Harris, which I do think is in my book and that's Askernish and Isla Harris are both in the book and are in my top favorites. And, um, it's worth going out there and spending a couple of nights, a hundred percent worth trying to figure out how to do that. And, um, you know, we talked about the ferries a little bit. You just gotta be, you just gotta roll with it a little bit. You got to, you got to, that's the only thing that you can say about it. Yeah. Cause like we, like our, our ferry, we were supposed to go back from, uh, from, what was that? Lock Boysdale back into Malague. Yeah. and that ended the bow thrusters were broken on the boat and so we ended up they changed it the day before and we ended up going into into Weig on the Isle of Skye which turned out to be I mean one of the greatest drives I've ever taken in my life but you know I was looking at it I was like all right you know what maybe we can just drive up to you know drive up to Harris and and play Isle of Harris and then Stornoway and and then take the ferry from Stornoway over to uh you know over to um Olapool right because there's Olapool and then Garlock like I think there's all this stuff that's up in the highlands on the west side of the highlands that is probably more like it's more in the western isles than it is in the highlands because it takes so long to get there from Adornik or or you know Brora or or Inverness right I agree I think Garlock, Durness that stuff um although it's classified as the highlands to me it feels more like part of the western islands I agree with you like the time the time that I played Durness and Garlock I came over on that ferry uh that you're talking about and it was just a better way it it was a nice way to kind of get to that place without because those that corner of Scotland is is the roads are pretty bad I mean I don't mind doing it I think it's fun but if you're not if you're if you're nervous driver is you better hang on when you start going up there because it's you're talking 50 60 70 miles on very very narrow narrow single lane single track roads and the only saving grace up there is generally you can see far enough ahead where you can see when somebody's coming um and so you can you know you can you'll you'll almost always have a passing place that you can get into and you don't feel trapped like if you're coming over a hill on a big camper van or a bus is coming straight at you but um but yeah that those places are remote Durness and Garlock I've got them in my uh my 19th whole chapter I love both of them they were two of the courses that when I was doing the final list I actually wrote chapters for both of those and just didn't um they didn't quite make it when on my final cut and uh so I love them and um but yeah that I would I always sort of tell people to try to combine it I do what you said and I do what you said like if you're going to take that trip go over go from Oban or over to to um take the ferry over to play Askernish drive up to Harris Stornoway has a pretty good course up there that people I've not played but I've driven up I passed it and it looks fun uh and then take that ferry across and then play those places that you're talking about then come down maybe around down to the Dornick and I'm not yeah Dornick and Brora but that's to me is a it's almost a better I love these driving you see so much great stuff on these roads if you're if you're nervous about the driving that's a little bit better method to to do and then I think there's some stuff in your book that's you know there's some stuff on the east coast but there's some stuff up that we didn't really cover up uh in the highlands or highlands adjacent that you know we've talked about Durness a little bit but Cove Sea and Hopeman are two that that I'm ashamed that I haven't been to Cove Sea yet and I'm dying to get there and you know lossy mouth right down the road but yeah Cove Sea is one of one Cove Sea is one of one it's almost like I almost compare it to the Sweetens Cove of Scotland in a way it's just in the way that it's sort of this can do is this guy and his wife built this course Andy is a uh he was a golf course contractor builder but he they got this land and decided to build this course and uh you can read about it in the book but the day we went there it was that was uh Jake and I were on that trip and we had already played Fraserburg and Cullen and y'all know it doesn't get dark that day okay and we were leaving that we were leaving the Cullen parking lot and um I have to give Jake credit for this I was tired and because Fraserburg is a hard course and it's hard to walk and but he we were with George Clark a mutual friend of all of ours um well George said where are you where you off to now and and Jake said well we're gonna go play Cove Sea and I said I don't know Jake he said dad we've got to do it I'll give him credit he said I've just looked at these pictures just you've got we've got to do it and it was about another 45 50 minute drive yeah and so we get there it's seven o'clock Angela who they had a little trailer out there she saw us drive up and and I'll tell the story in the book but you know she said you've got time you nobody's out you'll be around an hour and 10 minutes and she goes but you got to eat you know and y'all know how it is over there 8 30 is like the last service you know she goes you got to eat you got to eat I'll I'll book you something in in Lossie Mouth so she booked our dinner while we were out playing and we got Cove Sea on this the light the golden hour the greatest golden hour I've ever seen bar none and I I'll put this up against stuff I've seen at Sweetens Cove Donarity it's just it was just like I look back at the pictures now honestly and they do not look real um they they look like they're fake and uh the place that Andy did such a wonderful job fitting it into this hidden Tron you've got to get y'all both y'all got to go but yeah you'd sort of you drive down this sort of narrow lane single road down through Gorse you can't see anything all of a sudden you're down at this hidden sort of cove that's at the it's completely hidden from the rest of the world and it's right on the edge of the water and um it's just I people that go there dearly love it I mean they I uh Andy they came they've been so great supporting the book he actually came to one of my book signings and um got to talk to him for a while and they're just doing people are finding out about it and it's you know it's it's it's I don't know what it is now 25 pounds you know which is nothing and um it's just it's just stunning I mean hole after hole it's got a it's got a couple of holes like 10 you're hitting over a like the 13th at Cullen where you're hitting over the the rock there's there's one like that it's the only other place I've seen with that kind of hole well I guess I don't know maybe has one similar to it but but that's what it is and uh it's just it's just a great little golf course and it's pure fun um the pro at Nairn who y'all might might know Michael McAllen loves it he goes and plays there all the time I mean Michael will text me like that's what he does for fun as he goes he's the pro at Nairn he goes and plays Cove City so think about think about that I mean and he and so they're just coming up and they're coming up out of nowhere Hopeman you mentioned I love Hopeman uh did you get to there on this trip or not no no and I'm just it's like I want to go play I've never done Fraserboro I've never done Lassie Mouth and then I want to go Cove City uh Hopeman up to Darness and and you know go play Ray and Wick and those so just like a besides yeah well Hopeman is I highly recommend Hopeman very friendly 18 hole course wonderful the back nine is the best I mean my I would put the back nine well over the front but there's so many great holes on the back um I think it's 40 50 pound range and uh people will welcome you there it's got one of the greatest par threes called the pre-shock I hope I pronounced that right it's the 12th and you're hitting down straight down to this over this gorse covered hillside to this green that's down by the ocean I I've seen you some photos of it it's just you've probably seen it it's just um it's a one-off kind of hole I've never seen another one quite like it um and to me I'll play a course just for one hole I don't know how y'all are but I if if if it's something if it's something that good and I'm not saying that Hopeman is only one hole because I the course is really good I'd love it but uh it's it's that's the hole that you would put up um against any on any list in the world you know what uh all right let's land this plane a little bit we I did want to ask you about the night in the book that you're playing the playing the old course and you know it's it's pitch black it's it's basically completely dark when you're when you're finishing up and and just pretty spiritual evening it was you know um I had not been there I had not played it in 20 years I'd played it a lot when I was younger and I love the old I mean the old I always say it's in a class you can't really rank the old course to me it just sort of I maybe that's a cop out but I always when people ask me to rank courses I just say I'm not ranking the old course because I just feel like it's something that's on its own we got around we were we were the I forget what they call these times they call them um not evening times but you know what do you know how they call stuff twilight golf in the U.S. yeah so we got you're not guaranteed to finish you're not you're not guaranteed to finish we were we were the last group that finished and um you know I really wanted to finish because Jake was there and he was having so much fun I mean this just tells you everything about Jake he was playing with persimmons and just playing great and uh the ball was rolling like it only does at the old course and we were having so much fun we got paired up with um a guy from Titleist that you know Tron or from or was it Cal anyway randomly got paired up and uh we had some great caddies and it was just we all had some good holes we had some birdies but i was really as we got around to like the 14th and we're i remember walking past hell bunker and i'm like we're not going to finish there's just no way we're going to finish it was just it was it was twilight at that point in fact uh the guy david that was with us who are hosted us he quit playing on he said look i want you guys to finish i'm not going to play anymore which was a wonderful gesture and when we came up the 18th that we literally it was just lit by the town lights i mean it was the the light coming across from the old and from the houses down the right side but we finished and it was completely dark when we when we got done and they had um i couldn't believe they did this i write about it in the book but um they had made this flag of this drawing that jordan had done when he was nine years old and they put it on the 18th hole at the old course and i was i didn't even realize um they kept wanting me to look at it and i i and i really didn't realize what it was i thought i looked i said well that was nice they got jake to sign a flag for me i didn't really look at it that close and i went over and sat down when we were settling up with the caddies and stuff and i i opened it up and looked at it i'm like oh my god they they've made this flag from this drawing jordan did of the old the old course logo when he was a kid and it really just i i had i had to run and catch our friend in the car park and tell him how much i appreciated it and you know there's really you guys have played there a good bit i mean there's just it's again it's sort of to play it and it wasn't and the other thing really probably the reason we were able to finish was it was a very clear day so we had we had some residual light up until the very end there but you know it's funny you can you can play that 18th hole in the dark i mean there's enough light you know enough light coming around but we were the last group to finish and i'm so glad we did it we it was just wonderful and jake still talks about it and you know i just i'm so thankful to the the lynx trust for really helping us do that because you know it's as y'all know it's just hard to get on and um you know so david david connor i mean we're indebted to him for helping us yeah like i don't you know torresauce season two is like he basically arranged that what a nice man yeah yeah just a good just a good man and a credit a credit to golf in scotland so well he told me and i think i've got this in the book he said you know it made me realize how special this place is where i work and how much it means to people around the world and he said it just really hit me that um you know that some kid in alabama was dreaming about playing the old course when he was nine years old and i just i don't know i just they they have when they as long as they've got people like that taking care of the place they're going to be fine and um you know i like the way they're doing the ballots and stuff now people don't like it it's fine as far as i'm concerned i mean it's fair you know um but um yeah it's uh it had been 20 years and it was really uh i got out there and i'm like man this is just so much fun it's such a fun course to play and that it is and the funny thing is it's one that you know i'm a 15 handicap and i've never felt scared to play the old course but that's the right word it's playable you know what i mean it's it's playable for people yeah so jim unfortunately i've got to drop great chat with you i'm gonna let you guys keep going because i know you guys could go for uh probably another hour uh if not so but thank you always great talking to you my friend yeah good to see you solid doing uh british radio it's open championship week so i'm squeezing this one in what uh a couple quick hitters for you i think you have your top 100 holes list yeah uh in scotland how much turnover is is there on that after each trip well i do it's i'm glad you asked that i do keep up with it and um there's a little bit and and what i found is there's a lot of like holes shift around i've moved um the six at shishkin up to second now um i think i had it fourth or fifth before i can't remember but i've moved it up to second um i've added the 12th and 15th whiting bay in there which i just think are all world scottish brilliant and i think it's a good thing that i've moved it up to second and i've got a lot of brilliant golf holes so it does i mean if i if i find one that i really sort of moved by or like this is really great then i'll i'll spend a little bit more time on it when i'm there and maybe take a few more photos and try to understand the hole a little bit better and then i'll so i do i do keep it updated and it does usually when i play a new like millport um i added a hole from millport after i played there i believe the 11th and um you know so it does it change and it gets updated and you know you find things that are a little bit better and that you like a little bit better but also it just what's within there changes like i just i've really just become such a fan of the six that shishkin now and um it just keeps moving up so i know you said you're going to percher next but anywhere that you haven't played that you're that's just screaming at you that's pulling at you it's like the only one that i feel like i've i for me that i've just got to get to is um walze if i'm pronouncing that right up in shetland i've really wanted to play that and i've just never it's such a long yeah i think it's a nine hour ferry trip from aberdeen or somewhere to get to get up there i don't know if i'll be able to do that one i would love that's that's one that i've had on my list um there's one or two that that's probably the biggest one i mean i've not played there's a course on isle of call that i've not played that it's really it's again like we were just saying earlier it's one of these you you know if you're going out there you got to time it because the ferry only goes on tuesday and thursday or something uh so you got to go it's not it's not just to go out there and back kind of thing but there's a couple like little ones on the islands that i'm that i still haven't gotten um but i mean i've been pretty much everywhere um it's just now finding places that i really have never have never heard about um you know one way or another and just seeing what i find and but that that one up in shetland i've always wanted to do and i've heard uh i've heard from people that it's a really good golf course uh really good links course are you are you ever pulled into say england or ireland or that sort of thing are you or is scotland scotland the final frontier for you and there's just something that keeps pulling you back with the people i think it's it's probably the latter i just can't give it up and i love it and i've kind of made it my life's work if you will for writing and but i am thinking about you know i've played birkdale and litham and i i played saint george's hill one year which was just incredible i happened to be timed it when i was going flying to london and um i yeah i mean i've played i played all the courses in ireland and they're great um i did take one trip and really a long trip and played almost everywhere with my dad there about it's been about 15 years ago now uh so i've done that i do want to i'm thinking about doing a little bit more in england just because england has so many great golf courses really places that i need to play um but you know stephen proctor who i do the podcast with that you guys so generously sponsor for us is writing a biography of bernard darwin and he's going to be over there in next april and he's going to be playing all of darwin's courses like aberdovey and wells and woking and uh brancaster and all these places that uh you know that darwin loved and i'm thinking about at least joining stephen for two or three days and playing a couple of those places um i feel like i do feel like i've missed some stuff in england england when you look at the courses in england you see a lot of really really good stuff and um and wells too i mean some of the stuff in wells i mean the links in the sky i've always wanted to play uh royal saint david's of harlech i've always wanted to play and i've always wanted to play and i've always wanted to play um aberdovey's been on my list forever so if i i may try to go to aberdovey next year and then work in a couple of these easy one to do with liverpool or you know yeah you go over to form b or wallace yeah but but really i just um i love being in scotland and i just i don't see myself changing much from that what nor should you i guess uh all right current open rankings do you have a strong opinion on you know like it's your favorite tournament it's open week this will this pot will come out after the fact but do you have a very definitive open rota you know kind of rankings list yeah i i do i think um i'm going to cheat a little bit i think muirfield and the old course are tied at the top i think the old course is my favorite place where the opens played i think muirfield is probably one of the greatest golf courses in the world as far as a test for for players it's just brilliant and um so those two would be at the top i hope the rna goes back carnoustie i would have second i think carnoustie is a fantastic open course i love it i think it's just every time they have it there it's just you're on your edge of your seat watching just the it's great uh this one might surprise you a little bit my third one if you if you let me have the code number one uh would be lithium i think lithium is vastly vastly underrated i'm with you it's such a great golf course i've played it a couple times i love it it's just the strategy is just over the top uh i hope they go back i know there's always there's challenges but they're going back they're going back in oh that's right yeah they did mention it they did finally say they would i mean you've been hearing for the last years oh the infrastructure is too much can't do it yeah i mean if they can have the open in true and surely they can have it in lithium i mean um then i would probably go to turnberry and trune i you know i haven't played turnberry since the change the changes have been made i played it a couple of times you know back before and i loved it i thought it was great and of course some of the greatest opens of all time i've got a story in the book about the 2009 open it's one of my favorites i've ever done so turnberry and trune would be there then i'd go to birkdale. probably hoylake and this is probably not fair i don't i don't like some of the changes they made to hoylake for the open i've got to be fair about it i just sometimes you get colored by the the people that win i didn't really the last open there was just a big letdown to me but it's a good golf course and it was wet it was wet and that's you know when that when it's wet it just takes all the fun out of it i mean that's a certain that's a course that needs the conditions to cooperate it's so brilliant when it's when it's dry and firm and fast the strength and the strategy really comes out of it but yeah i agree and then i would have saint george's last which is probably not fair but it's the only one of these that i have not ever played and it looks i would probably love it if i went there um so it's just kind of default that i like these other ones better and it kind of winds up at the end well i left out port rush i forgot i always forget port rush i mean port rush would be up in the turnberry trune range for me i think um it's a solid place i wish i wish they would have the open at royal county down i don't know how you feel about it but i've never been okay well you you would have a fit if you went there it's it's just everything that we love about golf on that scale on a scale that could actually that they could actually have the open there i think they had the seniors open there a long time ago when it may have been the last time nicholas ever played in it uh and so i thought they were kind of testing it and i think they were kind of testing it out for the open but they still i would love that i think that would be a great place to have it i know they've talked about um port barnick port barnick they've talked about um you know i'm for i'm for adding um if you i'm all for trying that if they want to uh but i do i do think it needs to go back to muirfield i mean muirfield's just yeah yeah the one there you know when nick mickelson won i could watch that kind of golf non-stop i mean i don't know i don't know i don't the ball just rolling forever and you just every shot is life or death on the green and so yeah but that's kind of my my ranking okay i'm i'm largely aligned with you and it's yeah it's no slight to port rush or royal st george's because i know they're brilliant golf courses and i just don't think that it brings out what i want to see out of the pros like from it's more aerial than it is on the ground granted conditions have to cooperate for it to be on the ground at a burke dale or really but this week we're going to see it right so right all right most cherished piece of feedback you've gotten on the book well when i was when i did the book launch um in denaverty some of the members some of the things they said to me i was very moving i must have had 15 or 20 people that came up to me and said you thank you for everything you've written about this place thank you for doing this book i've read i've i've read part of it and then the red does every part it's just captures everything that's special about this place i mean it's really kind of emotional hearing that from them and then you know i got um aberful gave me a honorary life membership and um from the story in the book which i thought was a as far as i'm concerned was one of the best honors i've ever had in golf and then i've gotten so many messages trying i love getting these emails and dms from people and it makes the writing worthwhile but you know a mutual friend of ours you know i won't name him but um he's well connected in the golf industry he sent me a long message one night and he said you know i've had this book he said i've been i'm gonna paraphrase what he said he said i've just been trying to find a quiet time when i won't be distracted and i want it i don't want it to end i'll read a chapter and think about when am i going to have when can i go back and read it again he said it's just he said it's one of the best things you've written and he said um you know it makes me want to go to all these places when i when i get these messages from people that and i get i get them all the time from people that are at denavity or shishkin or cory and they'll send me a picture of the book while they're out there playing they may have even taken it with them that means the world to me i mean i you know i you know this isn't going to make the new york times bestseller list because we're not you know back nine press isn't set up on that like that but you know it's it's getting to the people that want to read it and the people that love this kind of golf like yourself you know you and i are very much alike you know we knew that from the first time we met at sweeten's cove i think we talked for 10 minutes and you know gosh we like the exact same exact same thing you know and um but it when i hear from people that have gone to these places and how much they loved it um that means everything to me because you know like we like Aberfoyle they need visitors and um so when i hear from i've heard from four or five people that have gone by there this year um well the day you were there you were just texting me hole after hole i can't believe this you this place is incredible and so i love that um if i've been able to help a little bit that's the reward from the writing and um you know getting people to experience these places in the way that i that i write about them in the book which is it's the fun of these kind of trips it's i think it's kind of what we've been kind of the theme of this whole podcast it's a little bit different kind of trip than um maybe a traditional one but it's you're gonna you're gonna be rewarded with some memories that you just that are that you'll never forget yeah no i think it's it's um like i love the table of contents in the book because it's such a it sums up that notion of wandering right not all wander or not all who wander are lost and i think that the book feels like a really good book and i think it's a really good book and i think it's a really good book just wander and great surprises and and it you know it's both a wander geographically around scotland but also a wander from a time perspective through 35 years of your life of you know in golf and and wandering through different phases of your life and different different emotions and and different people along the way and and you know all of that adding up to something that's much larger than itself and and jim i can say too like our i mean you've changed my life in a pretty drastic way of just i think many of my favorite memories come from either playing places with you or people i've met because of you or through you who are now you know cherished friends or or even you know us planning out this tour sauce season it's like i i'm i'm hopeful that that the tail on this between your book and you know our videos is is gonna you know be be quite a long one because it's uh well i mean trying to think about people's people like greg mccray and ewan mckinnon i mean think about these people that that we've met through golf and there's two of the nicest gentlemen i mean you couldn't find two nicer people and on the planet i mean greg would do anything for you i mean i'm going to i'm going back over to play with greg on the erin team and um these matches that lynx diary is having and he's just become a great guy and i'm going to i'm going to play with him and i'm going to play with him and he's just a great friend and it's all through golf and um you know i remember when we were doing that when revelation comes trip i i dropped you off at the ferry it brought it and um you know it's kind of an emotional i mean i could tell how much you had loved going to these places and it was a very emotional moment there when you know and i think i said i hope we can do this again sometime and i you know i hope you can help carry on the the love of these kind of places like corey and shishkin and denarity and so i always you know when you texted me that you were going over early for your tour sauce and the places you were going i'm like yep that's exactly what i would do and um you know i can't wait to go to the grand tully and and and you're gonna have to give your tell your man i'm coming so they can take care of me when i'm there but but uh i i love you know i love that part of it just as much finding a hotel that you know we didn't mention the corey hotel which is a great hotel and i think it's a great hotel you and i both dearly love and um you know places like that are half the fun i mean you think about when we were doing that film and we would sit in the corey at night and just spend three hours at dinner and i mean there's really nothing better in life than that as far as having fun and traveling and stuff so you know the book um i hope gets that across to people i mean it's um we're still trying to get it out there you know you can get it um It's in the Wee Bookshop in Corey, which I think you guys just visited recently. It's in the Donaverty shop. You can get it from back9press.com, back, the number 9press.com. I have to get that in there. And you can get it on Amazon. We'll get that in the show notes as well and everything. But, yeah, we got to get you in the bookstore in St. Andrews and, you know, like some of those, you know, legendary kind of golf bookstores, right? We need to. And I don't know why, as you and I were talking off air, I mean, we do have a U.K. distributor now, back nine does. So the book can, you can get it. I mean, Tony at the Wee Bookshop had ordered 20 or 25 copies, which I'm. I'm going to sign for. He sold some of them, but I'm going to sign the rest in a couple of weeks when I'm over there. And so you can get it. But it needs to be in toppings in St. Andrews. It needs to be in Oban and Waterstones. It needs to be. And there's so many nice little independent bookshops in Scotland. I mean, and for that matter, it needs to be in the square books in Oxford, Mississippi. And, you know, you know, you'd think that something like that, you know, because that's the kind of that's the kind of book it is. I mean, people. I think Shuskin has had 30 copies and they've sold every one of them. You know, it's just a matter of getting more there and people being able to get it. But I think it's the kind of book where people like this book finds people as much as people find it. And, you know, so I think getting it out in the world. Yeah. Kind of like, oh, like it's it's it's one that you would just pick up on the shelf and be, oh, you know what? Like that looks it looks interesting. Let me dive in here. And it's like it's like a. Portal into a separate universe almost. Well, part of it, something I'm really happy about, like when you see it sitting in like that Shuskin shop or in Denavity. And I'm obviously biased because I wrote the book, but it's what you look at. You know, man, that looks cool. That cover looks interesting. You know, what is that? And we wanted it. We kind of the whole thing was kind of designed around sort of a retro 20s and 30s feel to it with these old postcards and photographs and the cover, which is a which is one of these colorized. And so I'm so happy with that. It's one of the things when you see it, you just you pick it up. And once you like you said that you see that table of contents, you're like, this looks interesting. And so we're still early days. I'm I'm hopeful, you know, we'll we'll submit it for a couple of awards and see what happens and keep trying to get it out there. And, you know, I keep posting. I think everybody that follows me on Twitter. And it's. I think everybody on Instagram that's been supportive of it, you know, Greg is through Aaron Goff and William at Aberfoyle. I mean, they've done so much to kind of promote it. And, you know, that's really that's that's been a huge help in it. So still keep doing that. And you guys, of course, has been great to me. And, you know, just that whole time you were on the trip, I almost felt like I was there with y'all because I just I was so like so invested in how much. I mean, I know that you're a big fan of the show. I know that you're a big fan of the show. so thanks Jim thanks cheers my friend