The Hidden Cost of “Functioning” Alcoholism and How Jamie Holliday Broke Free

[MUSIC PLAYING] So apparently my parents talk about a lot of heavy stuff from their podcast, listen at your own discretion. Like, comment, subscribe, and share, or whatever. Anyways, welcome to sober up. [BEEP] [MUSIC PLAYING] Hey, everybody. Welcome back to the show. I'm Ryan. This is Jess. We are sober as fuck. Before we get to today's guest, do what are mind everybody. You can check us out on all platforms streaming everywhere. You can check us out at safpodcast.com. That's safpodcast.com. Make sure you like, subscribe, share, comment, share, review, on all platforms. Help us out. Yeah. You can check out our blogs. You can check out our merch and the website. Interact with us on the website. Do you want them to go to the website? Go to the freaking website, man. safpodcast.com. You just have website like four times in a row. So I was just-- Simple, limitable messaging. Go to the fucking website. All before. There you go. I feel like I have this stuff everywhere. Everywhere. Yeah. What do you got going on over here today? Nothing. OK. I'm good. I'm good now. I'll close a minute ago. But I think I got it under control. You think you got it under control? Yeah. I'm good. You always look good. Are you sure? Yeah. Promise. Camera can be deceiving. They have no idea what I look like a close and personal. It gets a little crazy sometimes. I understand. That's OK. How are you doing? I'm doing good. You OK? A promise. I'm good. We'll salt and pepper going on there. Perfectly fine. No problem. We're good. What do we have today? Today we have Jamie Halliday. Jamie like myself come from the comfort corporate world. He's been sober over eight years, which is pretty fucking awesome. He's an avid scuba diver, Yogi. He's got his own website, yoga from the heights.com. So make sure you check that out. Yeah. Scuba diver. Scuba diver. Fucking awesome. It tells me some stories. It goes like once a year. I can't wait. I'm terrified to scuba dive. Yeah. Well, I can't wait to hear his story. So let's please welcome to the show Jamie Halliday. Hey, Jamie. Hey, Jamie. Hey, hey, hey, me. Good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you. Much for having me. I'm wonderful. Thank you for coming. Yeah. Yeah. The scuba diving. Like I love the ocean, but it fucking terrified me. It is intimidating at best. Just the vastness is sobering. If I can play on words. But it's a place I found peace and sobriety. I've been diving 20 years, almost 20 years, but really latched on to it as part of my journey and sobriety for the last 3,071 days today. So we'll figure out tomorrow when it gets here. But today we're going to hang on to that. I love it. My mom was like a watervogue. She loved the ocean. I mean, we just swim out. And she went scuba diving once, like before she had us when she was like in her early 20s. And she so wanted to do it again. And she didn't get the opportunity to. But our daughter is the same. My mom used to always say like, she gets up from me. But as life would have it, she can't speed it up. She can't speed it up. She has teeny tiny little hole in her heart. Yeah, PFO, right? And it's something about the oxygen or-- Nitrogen. --but it's like the one thing in her head. She's like, I'll never be able to do that. She'll never be able to do that. And she loves the ocean. So-- Hey, thankfully they found it not realizing it while she was scuba diving, right? Like that PFO, that tiny hole, everybody's born with that, it just naturally closes over time as we grow as infants. My best friend, scuba diving buddy, actually has the same thing going on. But he had a cardio ablation where they kind of-- that very stuck a wire up there and just proceeded to burn me inside of his heart electrically to kind of help close that and control some of his arrhythmia that was going on as well. But it's unfortunate. But again, if we can look on the good side of it, that was not found in the middle of the ocean with people who may not speak the same language of with, oh my gosh, you're now a med flight back to kind of be saved. So-- Yeah, that's better. It's a bright side to that story. Yeah, and hers is so tiny, it doesn't even-- it doesn't need intervention. So maybe by the time she's my age, they'll have some sort of medical whatever that she can go and do it. We'll see. But when I heard scuba diving, anytime, it always basically think of my mom and my daughter. So I wish that I was brave enough to do it, but I'm scared. It's terrifying. And look, I've been in some deep scary kind of situations. In fact, so much so that in my diving career, I went ahead and pursued higher level certification. So I'm with the Patti Association. I carry a master diver certification as well as a rescue diver. I was in the Caribbean once all over the place, but this time in Kazamau. There were some people who probably shouldn't have been scuba diving that were, hey, I went diving 20 years ago. So I know how this works. And we were at depth. And they clearly were a hot mass, like to say a cluster fuck would be doing it at this service. And during that time, I thought to myself, what would happen if there was a medical emergency, a dive emergency, right? As part of the basic kind of open water training, your taught, OK, what happens if my mask comes off? What happens if my regulator comes out? What happens if I don't have air? How do I get air from a buddy? But to really react and respond to a situation underwater doesn't come with that level of certification. And so I spent some time pursuing this rescue diver course, which basically involved somebody going and hiding at the bottom of a lake, me having to come on scene, assess what happened. We saw him drowning. We think he was over here and then go out and find this person, rescue them, recessitate them while I'm dragging them back across the top of the water of this lake. Now look in the practice, the guy died the first two times, not literally because he had a regular and was downright. But just understand the criticality and to get your head around, how do I want remain calm to assert myself as a person of authority and three assessing, find this person and bring them back and try to save their life. And so I did that personally because I thought I could never be on a dive with messy people again and sit there and watch helplessly somebody perhaps not make it back to the boat. And so I took that upon myself, I don't know, maybe a little bit of Boy Scout, maybe me trying to outrun some karma that if that karma finally up well, I'm in trouble. So let me lead with a little bit of kindness and thought around that. Thankfully, I've never had to rescue somebody. Dive guides and dive masters are there. They'll be the first ones to tell you they're not the safety crew. They're there for your safety, but mostly to guide the dive because you're a responsible qualified diver and you're not doing things that it's siege your ability and capacity. So to your comment that it's scary, I have to share this. Luckily, I'm married to a wonderful woman who's very tolerant, who's been the rock through the darkness of my drinking days and the light that I found in sobriety. She's also a native Hawaiian and grew up on a wahoo, born, raised. And so my Hanai, my adopted family, is all in Hawaii and that it has exposed me to a culture of people that are all about the land and the sea. And I had the real wise man in social media. We were having some dialogue, a Hawaiian man, and he made this comment that's just resonated with me. And he says, every time I go in the ocean, it is either a church or a school to me, meaning it's either done with reverence or he learned something either about himself or the ocean itself. And I've always kind of taken that to heart. Now, luckily, again, through the convenience of my marriage and my in-laws who have graciously adopted me, I joke as the DEI higher the family, but they take it lightly. We're able to return to Hawaii frequently. Once a year or every 18 months, I spend two weeks, sometimes three weeks when we're able to. And to be part of that integrated into that family and to understand what the ocean means culturally to them has just been enlightening. And hey, by the way, I get to dive. And I have been in the water with humpback whales, newborn calves, dolphins, mantarets, sharks. The whole lot of the cast of characters is there. But it's again, a key part of my life, a key part of my journey. I could just roll up my leg and show you a whole leg sleeve of nothing but ocean creatures. In fact, one of my Instagram posts that kind of crack into what that symbolizes for me and the meaning of each piece on my leg through my sobriety. I've found that diving takes me, it takes you in a different atmosphere. Number one, right? From the day we're born, gravity is just pulling us down. It pulls on us every day and it's much like life. There's just these cumbersome things and especially the life of an addict, right? Because alcohol is just a symptom of a greater malady that we have to get at, right? What is under, we were with the drinking, life does it magically get better. In fact, I got fatter, much fatter for the first couple of years, much unhealthier, much angrier. You hear dry drunk syndrome commentary sometimes, like because I didn't get at the things that led me to drinking. But what I found is through recovery and then this diving, it's otherworldly. Gravity no longer pulls on my body and now you have this concentrated breathing which later in maybe get to my yoga experiences is a practice called pranayama or breathwork, right? It is absolutely this controlled rhythmic breathing and so now you have no gravity. This whole other universe, a beautiful fish and corals and some things that want to bite you, sting you and eat you. They bring a little bit of awareness and consciousness to the situation. But the peacefulness I experience underwater is the most liberating thing and so once a year, I think you and I were talking. Once a year I take a guy, generally a guy's trip, my best friend and I meet up somewhere in a Caribbean, in a place that's got great diving and we do nothing but have another sober guy by the way, let me plug that in there. We do nothing but dive and talk and share and have fellowship and eat good food. But if anybody's ever been in a long car ride or on a trip with someone first half a day, first days, the general house, the wife, how's the kids? Do you like your dog? Do you make enough money? I hate my job. And then by day two, you get into some real deep shit, right? Like let's talk about how my dad used to beat the shit out of me with a belt and why that why that impact me or whatever those things are. And so once a year, I have this retreat and it started during my drinking. My friend was, he's been sober for 20 plus years. He would tolerate drunk Jamie, right? Just sloppy. I love you. And all the things that come with with when you're drinking have that liquid courage pumping through you. To today where we have these really meaningful excursions, we went to Bonair last fall September, October timeframe and just got a house right on the water, got a breakfast, coffee, fellowship, diving, back for some snacks, back in the water. And it was just this beautiful thing that I'm so grateful and lucky that I get to do one with a friend who has a common interest of diving, a second interest of sobriety, both very damaged Gen X kids that we just would just vibe and fellowship. And I think that's a key part of sobriety for me today is having somebody and I have other friends who are also non-drinkers recovering alcoholics that we have this fellowship. A lot of 12, 12-step programs will promote that same kind of go-to meetings, be with people, tell your story, not to relive that darkness, right? But to clear away that wreckage of the past, if I could quote one of their books, right? And begin to find other people who are like you, have this kind of thing going on that sometimes you don't know how to sort those noises out in your head and it takes somebody who's on the same journey to have that conversation. You guys like what we're doing today. Yeah, communities has been a huge part. It's everything. I think it is, yeah. To me, that's the number one thing and in sobriety is definitely community 100%. When I love to that like, you know, you talked about your wife who's amazing and wonderful and has been with you through things, but then you also have this friend who you go on these excursions with and we talk about this a lot, you know, we do this podcast as a couple and it's so funny because we get people who are like, oh my god, a couple goals. I'm like, you should have known what you're doing. But, you know, we talk about you can't be somebody's everything. That is unrealistic and it's not sustainable and it's not fair to the person that you're leaning on. So that community and sobriety is so great. You know, I quit drinking, but alcohol was never the thing that I felt pulled me down. I was more mental health related and I got that under control and then gave up the alcohol later because I was like, this is just bad for my body. My medication doesn't work. I'm, you know, why do this? So as far as drinking goes, I'll never know what it feels like to have that struggle, right? Just like, I have my own binge eating, OCD, ADHD. You'll never know what it feels like to struggle with like binge eating disorder, which is the one I struggle with the most. And that's okay. But that's why community and people are so important. I mean, even if they're not like best friends, like even just like acquaintances, I'm a big one on every interaction and every relationship, even if it's only a relationship for a one hour conversation, it's so important and brings you something and teaches you something and leaves a thumbprint. And then that also leads to that's why it's so important anytime, but especially in recovery to be very aware and very protective of what you allow in and what you put out and what you surround yourself with. Because God makes a world of difference too, I used to hate when my mom would say, you are who you hang with, but there is so much truth in that. And it's not to degrade somebody else. Like you could choose not to surround yourself with something that is, it's not good or bad. Life is rarely this one thing or this other thing. It could just be something that is not serving you on your path or your journey. But that's part of it too is recognizing, oh, I don't really think that's for me, but I'm glad that I had that conversation or that interaction. And I think a lot of people, we as a society, we have this hustle, mentality and culture, and especially with you guys working in corporate that we're like, I can do it. I don't need to ask for help. I can do it on my own. I'm tough. And especially as a woman, you're supposed to be able to take all of the abedings, like emotionally and mentally, but that's not that none of that shit's true. It is an internal struggle. And it is a battle that you have to fight, but you cannot do it without a community. I'm an avid believer in that. You cannot do it without a community. You need people who see you and look at you and go, I fucking get it. Like I get it because I've been there and I've walked that. And that is an invaluable feeling when you connect with someone who you're like, oh my gosh, you get it. And you have some sober buddies that you feel that way. Tyler is one of them. And pretty damn big community of people that understand it. I'll come to you with the issues. I would obviously just get into it with anything. But I mean, I would never, but it's just not the same. And I'm too invested in you. You know, we eat next to each other. We live. I get it. Same toilet. It's too much. You know, I cannot have an unbiased, you know, just one more time to say, like an unemotional conversation with you. I'm always going to have that. You know, so I know I went on a deep dive there. Ha ha. See where I did that. Do you see where I did that? Oh my gosh, you brought it back around. I loved it. I love it. But I've heard to bring it back to that actually. I've heard a lot of people talk about that piece and that stillness with any sort of water, anything, whether it be scuba diving or just being in the presence. And I think one of the biggest reasons, like I'll swim ish in the ocean, but I don't get above my knees. Because I have such a respect and appreciation for it. And it really is. I'm like, this, like, we don't, when I say we don't belong here, that's a bad way to put it. But for lack of a better phrase, I think you understand the intention, you know, no, I look, I would, oh, sorry. Oh no, you go, please. I would, I would almost argue, look, I don't want to be controversial, but there's this belief of evolution. Like, right. People just didn't suddenly appear here. I'll stay out of the minefield. But in my personal beliefs, I subscribe to that. If you look at whales, dolphins, these mammals, and Neil deGrasse Tyson does a great kind of clip on this. He says that these, that we've all, all life started in the ocean and crawled out. And these smart characters crawled back in. They crawled out, learned a brief error and then said, I don't like what's going on out here. And crawled back into the ocean and became these, these ocean mammals that we see today. And so in my belief at the very core of our physiology. I subscribe to this evolution theory and I think there's a part of our brain that is drawn to the water because millions of years ago, all of life was in the water. And so that that draws there and people can often put words around it or they can't explain it. But for me, this is how logically and scientifically I organize up, oh, that makes sense why I'm drawn to the ocean and to that I didn't become a dolphin, right, and get out of this corporate world and just swim around and try to outrun the sharks and things and eat fish and do tricks. But there is an element of that people are drawn to water. And I truly believe in my heart that biologically that's part of why we're drawn there. It leaves for me and that piece again that I find in the ocean, whether it's on top of it underneath it or standing beside it, that gentle sound of the waves crashing the power and force. It's a cool thing to experience. Well, man, right? I mean, just to kind of make a joke about it, but it's so true. You said, you know, we evolved out of it and then the smarter ones went back in. I'm like, yeah, they came out and they're like, it's really a joke. You shit out here. I agree. And I conform to our, I believe in evolution as well. And I'm a big science person. So like, like reconciling the spirituality and the science, it kind of all has to fuse for me and you're the same way. But that makes sense. I love that. I love that. And we are. I mean, it's individuals, even people who don't necessarily like go into the beach. Like we are as a species attracted to water. We do. And life cannot exist without water. Anyways, I love the ocean. I'm just not want to go into it because I'm scaredy cat and I'm not a thrill-saker. But yeah, I always feel very at peace. And our daughter literally wants, like her only criteria for college is it has to be near a beach or the ocean. Yeah. Oh, right. So that's a long one. Right. You know, um, so you've obviously done a lot of work in your sobriety to get you to this place, right? It's not like you just quit drinking and you were like, oh my gosh. Yeah, magic. Yeah, magic. Tell us how you got there. Tell us like, yeah, look, let's look to do that. We got to talk about where I am. We got to talk about a little bit about where I came from, right? So I will. I'm a Gen X hardcore 1970 model, which I absolutely cherish being born in an even year like that because my life has aligned by decades, right? So the 70s, I was zero to 10, the 80s, I was 10 to 20, the 90s, I was 20 to 30. And so it's just, it's just paired well to track my life. Now what that really means though, is that my parents were 18 when I was born. They probably shouldn't have had kids. Let's be honest, right? But these things happened. It was, you know, 1970, mom and a pregnant, oddly enough, a couple months later, they're suddenly married, born in Oklahoma, but we moved to Houston quickly after my birth. My dad was a pipe fitter, worked in the oil industry during, in fact, during refinery shutdowns. So we were in the Houston area of Pasadena, shout out to Stinkadena. If you've ever been there, you smell the refineries before you ever see the signs for town. My mom's a tarp family is from Houston, so yeah. Okay. So yes, hey, driving there. Early 70s, my dad figures out, hey, I can supplement our income if we just drive to Mexico and get car loads of marijuana and bring it back. And so I had this very non-traditional kind of experience from ages, you know, from birth until about six years old. And that was, we ran drugs out of Mexico. And the first it was pot, then it was quailudes, then it was other pharmaceuticals. And I, you know, as a kid, you're just like, oh, cool hotel, we're going to a pool, a long car ride, laying out across the back window, feeling the sun on my face. For me, a big part of my story too is music, right? Music is the mile markers along the journey of my life. And so I clearly remember Benny and the Jets playing as I stretch out along the back window, as we're on our way to Mexico. But as we probably all can figure out, the life of a drug dealer become very complicated, right? There's no 401k, there's no healthcare. And things, things kind of got from cool hippie stuff into, into some pretty bad ugly violence, right? As my dad's addiction kind of went down, not just alcohol, but then it became cocaine, then it became heroin. And as a five year old kid, I was the joint passer. So when the joint got to the end of the couch, they would hand it to me to bring it back to the beginning of the circle. Like these are things that to me were totally normal. Things that society probably says you shouldn't have your kid in that environment. And I think by today's standards, there might have been people going to jail and meet thrust into a system that's a whole another story. So things got pretty bad. And we had to eventually, this whole time, my mom, sweetest woman on the earth next to mother Teresa and my sweet wife. She was in undergrad the entire time working on a nursing degree. The day she graduated, the next morning we were gone. We disappeared. We had to escape, if you will. And so at five, that was the last time I ever saw my dad by the age of 10, five years later, he was shot in a question of all circumstance in a single wide trailer in an outside Houston and Bay City. Most likely a drug deal that went bad. And so during that five year gap between our escape from Texas and we landed in a place called Clue de la Heights, Ohio, shout out to the Heights, the Kelsey Brothers, Machine Gun Kelly, all the good people made Jimmy from the Heights as I like to call myself. We landed there and my mom wanted me to have a different experience in life. And so she put me in the Catholic school system. My grandparents were kind enough. They also had to take ex-Mana poor kids, right? Just to, I don't know how it all works, but somehow I was thrust into this Catholic school system. Phenomenal education, the brutality of Catholic school during the 70s, I have to tell you, they're up schools operate differently, but in those days there were, I jokingly call it ritualistic beatings. It was, I like to run my mouth and it was the reaction was, here comes the yardstick or you're going to go kneel on concrete in the shrine, the Mary and pray. And so just to kind of encapsulate the 70s for you, for me, violent childhood, clear addict behaviors. Clearly I was involved. We would go pick mushrooms in the cow fields, the kind they grow out of cow pies. I don't know if you're familiar with these mushrooms. The story I was told was they were poisonous and we were going to save the cows. What really happened was dad would take them home, drive him out, make tea, and then they'd have these tripping psilocybin tripping parties in our apartment. Anyway, take that, remove me from that and thrust me into this Catholic school system. And now you have this, this message of God's loving person and caring and kumbaya and all the things that the Catholic church will sell you. At the same time, I watched up, my mom being beat by my father and I have these nuns, I call them gods ninjas because at the time we had just got cable and they looked like ninjas and a yardstick would come out from different places other weapons. And so I had gods ninjas beating the shit out of me, telling me that God loves me and that I just got to be a better kid and make better use of my time, which I'm still working on, Sister Mary Courtlett, wherever you are. I'm still trying to make better use of my time. But this opposition of message of love and violence became part of me. And after my dad passed, we reconnected with his family and I was eventually would come back to Oklahoma and spend time with families and had some uncles who were trying to sort out how they could step in for my dad and kind of this kid that they hadn't seen in five, eight years, who was very confused and very kind of out there, behaviorally a little bit. With my daughter today, they call them special rural kids. So that's our, she always said, "Dad, you were a special rural kid. Yes, I was hunting. I got a lot of trouble and you don't have to be that way." But you have this kind of opposition of life experience, right? And from age one to ten, so much of our personality, our thoughts are very, and shit does, they call it in yoga. These experiences that shaped the context of our reality and consciousness were not the best experience for me. And at a young age, I had somebody give me a drink of whiskey. A young age, eleven, maybe twelve years old. And it burned. But then I felt that warmth. I felt that warmth. And then I saw people in my life who I thought were important to adults doing the same thing. And I had this connection between my father who I hated I hated and also loved and messidierily at the same time. and now I had this substance that made me feel okay. It kind of took that edge off. It gave me a little bit of courage. It made me feel confident. I shouldn't have been drinking whiskey at 12 while Turkey shout out to the distillery. I got a chance to visit much later in life. - I'm sorry, hello. - 101, not that 86 garbage, Turkey 101. (laughing) And I was off. I was off to the races. I had found something that made me that just covered all this ugliness that I carried inside. And that exacerbated for several years into somebody saying, "Hey, why don't you try smoke "in the joint?" And then the mix and match started happening fast forward to ninth grade. And I got in a little bit of trouble. It was afforded the option to get in trouble or go to this fantastic 28 day program where they would help me get sober. And I was like, "Avoid consequences?" By going, "Tole, I'm in." And I don't have to go to school. So 28 days turned into about nine to 10 months of what I like to call incarceration. I went from that 28 day program and they said two things. You got a lot of issues and you have good health insurance. And so my 28 days evolved into nine to 10 months of institutionalization that needs very trendy mid 80s, teenage hazel dim was popping off, Betty Ford had already been established, but it was super trendy to go to rehab back in those days. We didn't have social media and TV and all these things telling us, but there were a group of us in the Heights. I stayed sober from 15 to 19. Went to meetings, been to Dr. Bob's house in Akron, Ohio like did all the things. Seven days a week meetings, making coffee, 24 hour clubs. But what I really did was find a group of friends who were all, again, back to the fellowship. We were all kids with problems and we were all sober. And it was one of the coolest experiences. And I did things like we made tie-dies for a few months and sold them, bought tickets to the dead shows and Philly and disappeared for two weeks. Five sober kids living in a hotel room on the other side in Cherry Hill, Jersey, surviving off 50% sausage muck muffins, following the dead around New England for a little while. Start craving sober, no drugs, no alcohol. That friendship is what I realized that bond of friends and people to make me not feel alone, to understand that I'm valued and I'm seen for who I am, not because of who I, what I do was so meaningful to me. And then the things happen and you become a age and I was like, but I can drink now. And there's part of that book I referred to that there's a guy that talks about controlling his drinking by taking the whiskey and putting it in milk and his belief is if I just water it down and drink it with the milk, I can have control. And I could tell you between 19 and 20, when I started drinking it again and 46, when I got sober, there were great periods of control because I had to do it. I had to show that I could control this thing that I used to make me feel better that I used as a shield to hide all this garbage I carried inside of me. And it worked, but it was a lot like trying to have self control with diarrhea if I can be honest. You can hold your ass cheeks together for so long, but eventually you're gonna be like, I hope this is a far-to-note, but if you're underwear going the trash in a public bathroom and you shamefully drive home, hoping nobody looks at your backside, right? And that's how drinking is for me. I held my buck cheeks together when I had to and at times I shipped my pants and it was a thing. And I hear people talk about high functioning alcoholics. I guess that's what I was. Alcohol was the thing for me. Let me be very clear about that. Though I've done every drug except math, alcohol was my go-to whiskey, especially whiskey, corn liquor. Oh my gosh, I still have a massive liquor collection. I haven't quite sorted out what I'm gonna do with it. My wife's drinks. I have very little cravings. My weak spots on the airplane when nobody's watching. Like, well, I could get ripped. Nobody would fucking know. And so those are my weak moments. But anyway, I maintain control. Eventually got a career in tech. What a great time to be Gen X as tech, right? We grew up, I grew up with no tech. Three channels, the typical rabbit ears. We got cable when I was a teenager, but it was just a very different life. But tech came on. And so I got into the tech field in the '30s. It had a great career. It's been amazing. I've also been a high functioning alcoholic throughout most of that, right? Where I just could just barely get by. Moderately successful. A lot of that's because I'm articulate, well spoken, or so I'm told. And I love being educated about anything that I get involved in. Maybe a little ADHD, maybe a little obsessive. Like, go deep down the rabbit hole on everything. My garage is a testament to all of these things. I get involved. I buy all the things. I get all the books. And then, oh, let me go try this and something else happens. You speak in my language right now. That's the same for me. Yes. And being a 12 year old emotionally, but having credit cards is fucking deadly combination. Like, you should see my Star Wars room. It is everything that I would have got when I was 12. But now I buy, like, I'm 55 years old, and I have nine lightsabers because I can. But anyway, fast forward and eventually, I found myself in a beautiful home with a wonderful wife. We have a daughter. This is my second marriage. I have to say I have a 27 year old son who I'm still watching him find his way through this world. Contrasting the difference, having a kid in my 40s, it's a different experience. And part of that is what brought me to this moment. I think a lot of alcoholics have this moment where I stood on my back porch. This beautiful view of this open pasture land in this gorgeous house with a wonderful wife and a one-year old baby at the time who we fought so hard to bring to this world. Like, we had to have all kinds of science and money because people in our mid-40s probably shouldn't be having kids. But we wanted one. Such a beautiful kid. And I'm standing on that porch and I begin to cry. And it occurs to me that I've got to stop drinking. I've got to stop drinking. And I've got to go back over this last 40, some odd years of shit that I've carried inside of me that just weighs on me like gravity. Nobody gets out of life on scarred. Look, we all have our own traumas. Even the silver spoon, trust fund babies believe that they have trauma. I can tell you I'm a survivor of real trauma. Some of itself induced and some of it a victim of young kids that probably shouldn't have had a kid in the '70s. But regardless, at that very moment, I thought, I knew that I've seen destitute alcoholics on Skid Row as a teenager doing these work in soup kitchens with the sober crew I ran around with. And I thought I don't have to lose everything. And believe me, I had made some choices that had put me just on the cusp of almost losing everything over alcohol and my drinking and my inability to face and process trauma and demons and the garbage I carried. And then that brief moment of clarity, I had this thought that I can do this. I know how to do this. I'm just going to stop today. I fall back on this. Let me just sort today. I can't think about, oh my god, life without alcohol, I've bought all this wonderful bourbon that what am I going to do it, right? I just said just not today. I had a similar moment about three months earlier-- about a month earlier, I was in Paris for work. Promising my wife, no, no, I'm traveling honey. Everything's OK. I won't be drunk. I was ripped the whole time other than drinking in the office, and spent time in Ireland and was routing back through Paris overnight. Never been to Paris. So obviously I had to have some dinner, on Chateaubury, which is Popros, and a bottle or two of red wine, because hey, I'm in France. And there's a post on my Instagram where I was in the elevator. I was ripped, totally lied to my wife about, I'm not drinking it on this strip. I'm going to be sober. I got this. And then again, it was this place of clarity of, I hated everything that my father was, and somehow I had become him minus the violence. But even then, drunk, I was either crying or screaming. There was-- these were the extremes of my drinking. And so that moment set, a pin, if you will, for this moment I had a month later on my back patio, where I said, I don't have to lose it all. I don't have to be destitute and get divorced again and go through child support. And when do I get to see my kid and perhaps lose my job that I've been at for years, and that it's you, some moderate success set? And I made that decision that day that I wasn't going to drink. And then the next day, I felt like shit, oh my gosh, the withdrawals were just terrible for the first month. At the end, I was drinking two handles a week of Evan Williams' black label. It got to a point where I was rotating through and a pint for the ride home, or a half a pint. I was rotating liquor stores because they would be like, oh, wouldn't you just hear the other day, and I'm back with two handles. [BLANK_AUDIO] So that shame and hiding, my drinking and my consumption had just got me to this place. I call it the corner of hopelessness and despair. And so I stack that day with another day, with another day. I didn't start doing work yet just removing the alcohol, just to set a stable ground. Then I found food. So I ate my way through my first two years of sobriety and at this point I'm approaching 50. And it's that bad. This is turning 50 for me was like, holy shit, my dad died at 29. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. I never had any guidance, no dad knowledge dropped on me. There is no KB or manual for how do I be at dad and be sober and do all of these things. But turning 50 hours like, we had a kid late. I've got to be here and I've got to be healthy. Let me figure this shit out. Had a Peloton bike started just cranking on the bike, right? And sweating and that evolved into, well let me start picking up some weights and let me lift weights a little bit and that evolved into, well, I used to watch my mom do yoga in the 70s and for a battered woman, if you will, was the times I saw her at peace. And I was like, well, let me rip a few yoga videos too. And so as I approached 50, I got in good shape. I could run 10 minute miles, not like I'm not breaking records, but hey, I could run six of those miles without stopping and do a 10k in an hour. And I began to stack sobriety and interlacing fitness and taking care of myself and then watching what I ate in the kitchen, which I think is 70% of fitness is what you put inside, right? And so I began to lose weight and get more and more healthy. And then I was like, okay, now maybe about two years in and I'm healthy, I'm sober. Now we got to go deal with some garbage. And that's where I had to get at underneath, right? What led me to drinking? Because it was just a symptom of some very broken things inside of me. And that's where I found the fellowship. I had more sober friends. In fact, I have another friend that was helping me do an audio check before this, much to my chagrin that we still had to sort through some things. But he sober as well. And so we have a weekly call for an hour where we just talk, right? No holds barred. Sometimes it's back and forth. Sometimes it's one of us dumping. But again, back to this fellowship. And then I paired that again with some counseling. Look, I've been through counseling being sent in the system as a kid. The counseling I got there was me learning how to read the room and how to say the things that people want to hear, but not process some things, right? There were some things that happened to me that I had never told anybody. No counselors, no mom, nobody knew these things. And that was the real dirt that I had to clear out somehow. And so pairing this healthy lifestyle, the sobriety, and then laying on some therapy quite honestly. Found a counselor that I hit a vibe with. I had to shop through two or three of them and not settle for somebody. And there wasn't about shopping for somebody who was avoiding the hard message or that would kid-gloved me through this therapy part, right? But it was really about finding somebody who's energy I could vibe with and who I felt connected and could talk much like we're talking today, right? I had a lot of the pressures and constraints of self-perception and all of this and just get to the meat of what's inside. And so I talked through those things and I said the dirt that I was afraid to say for 40 some years carrying all those garbage of things that had occurred in these experiences. I had as a kid that weren't normal. And when I did, it didn't feel better. It was like opening a dirty garbage bag or a diaper pill if you've been through that with kids. Like, "Why aren't you supposed to take this out last night?" And like you're like, "And so some of that garbage stunk is I processed through it and there were tears and there were things that I had to feel because I never got to feel them as a kid. I had to grow up and be in a single parent home and deal with the brutality of the Catholic system and all of these things." And so once I got past that, I eventually got to a liberated spot where I just felt okay in my own skin. And that came oddly enough here. Not a few years back I was traveling again for work and I was in Costa Rica. I had an office there and I was going to meet my team there. And I thought, "Well, I'm already here. There's this really cool place called theosa penenzola, which is literally I had to get on a prop plane where they wade me with my bag and fly out along the coast and down into this valley, under this airfield. Nobody in the airport, four-wheel drive truck had to come pick me up to take me to the place I was staying." And I just randomly booked four days at this very rural but beautiful hotel and found a Facebook group for this town called Drape and found a yogi who was offering some soundbass and talk therapy. It offered me a mini retreat of three days of nothing but I would dive in the morning and then we would meet for some talk therapy, soundbass, yoga. And I took doing video yoga is there's no interaction. I'm just copying people on the screen trying to be like, "Does this look right? Looking in the mirror." It was I was practicing yoga, right? But this experience with this yoga in Costa Rica and I have to tell you the set of story is I had never met the person and they were like, "Oh, I'm going to send a moto for you." And I'm like, "Okay, this is a really rural place, dirt road, but I guess I got Uber here." And so a motorcycle appears and the dude's like, "Beepin the horn, beep beep, hi-me, hi-me." And he keeps pointing on the back and I'm like, "Are you fucking kidding me?" Yeah, he's like, "I'm a kid." He said, "Yeah, he doesn't speak English, but he knows my, you know, the Spanish version of my name, hi-me." And he keeps pointing to G'dayah. I was like, "All right, fuck this, I guess this is how it ends." And we're like, "Now we're on this dirt road up and down and it is the end of the rainy season, dodge and puddles." And I hate, I'm a motorcycle rider, I just sold my bike, but I hate having passengers. It just alters the balance. And I'm like, "This is it, this is how it goes." And we get to this spot in the jungle and there's another dirt road and he points, stops them points. He's like a key, a key. And I'm like, "Are you fucking kidding me?" Like, "What's my choice now?" I'd be like, "No, I changed my mind. You do, like, take me back to the hotel or the place I was staying." I was like, "Yolo, right?" So, hop off the bike, walk down this trail, little yellow hut and this, and the media, I'm like, "They're gonna fucking harvest my kidneys. I've seen this. This is my, I'm not gonna go with this." And I ice bath, I'm missing my kidneys, hearts in my body. And I meet this wonderful Yogi. And they just worked with me for three days. And there was no, I didn't have to talk to this person ever again. I still kept in contact and that's part of the story. But it was a place where I could go dump that garbage, that last little bit. And not only that, but I could get in this garbage can with some comet and some bleach and really get in there and just have this cathartic experience and involving breathwork and yoga. And this is where I went from practice and yoga and copying videos to having yoga practice. And so, I got both my kidneys. Nobody got me. I was not absconded, held for ransom in the Costa Rican jungle. But I had this beautiful experience. It's just, I still play back bits of it in my mind. And in a wonderful resort owned by a gay couple retired from San Francisco who were caterers, like, off the chart food, beautiful looking out over the ocean, barely had cell phone, the cause flying, howler monkeys kept capuchin monkeys, like it was otherworldly. So fortunate that I did that. And I came back and I realized that yoga was the missing piece of my sobriety and not copying videos, but having a yoga practice and understanding that postures and the sauna, the movement, it's only one of eight parts of yoga, right? There's all these other elements of ethics and self-discipline and breathwork and enlightenment there and concentration and purity. There's eight limbs of yoga and posturing is one and it's less than 5% of the yoga sutras, the books. So I'm not here to promote philosophy or religion. These are the things that work for me. And so that yogi and I kept a relationship over Zoom for six months, working through flows, talking through things, working on breathwork. And eventually I was like, I need fellowship here. So I found a yoga studio, typical guy, right? The plate, the way I pick. Let me open the map, what's the shortest drive I've got to make? Shortest commute, found one three miles away and signed up, right? And started going to yoga once a week there. And I looked, yoga is not a male dominated sport. So it's sometimes awkward to be the only guy in the room. But I found a community and I found a studio where I could go be myself and I could shine this empty, clean, shiny trash can that carried all this muck for all these years and is now becoming this person who cares and who leads with kindness and self-care. And eventually decided to become a yoga instructor, not because I wanted to teach, but because that ADHD has like, wait, yoga's 5,000 years old, holy shit, I'm so behind, I got so much to learn. Not in a cultural appropriation way, there's a lot of controversy there right about the pure form of yoga and its intent, but because I wanted to know, this is kind of like an attic. Oh my gosh, this yoga felt good. There's more, there's principles, there's things, there's books, and so I've spent the last six months becoming a yoga instructor, and by the end, the person taking me through this program at the studio was like, you would be a good instructor. You're kind, you have this sincerity, you also have a voice, and you're a guy, and that's not a common thing. So night, yoga on Thursday nights, I've only taught five classes, I always get great feedback, I'm not packing the room yet, look, they pay me $30, and sometimes I wave the fee of the student counts low. I do it not because I'm trying to get rich, I'm not trying to sell clicks and likes in my yoga from the Heights website is like barely a website. Instagram is where I put my thoughtful posts, yoga from the Heights on Instagram, but plug myself shamelessly. I'm not trying to sell merch, I'm not there for clicks and likes, I'm not there to be validated, I'm there to say, this is my story and you're going to get parts of it from Gen X and pictures of the 70s and drug running family that looks very inconspicuous, except for my dad's like shoulder length hair, hippie look, through how I've combined yoga and sobriety and scuba diving and travel and food and being a father and being a husband into this beautifully woven tapestry of the life I live today, knowing that I just got to handle today, just don't fuck it up today holiday is what I tell myself sometimes, right? And there's still moments of weakness where I want that drink and I want that warmth and I want to pick up all that garbage and be like, no, put it back in here because I need shame and I need guilt and I need to feel pain because I'm undeserving and nobody should love me. And then I have those moments where I talk with friends and say, hey, today felt heavy. Can I talk to you about how whatever happened works, pressure in me, you know, whatever the poles are, the dogs, this last one was I live on that acre and we have beautiful lush green grass, we have these rabbits and they are killing my lawn. So last year I bought a pelican, I was going to take care of these rabbits as a man, a camo up, right? I'm thinking of Caddy's shack if you will, Bill Murray, I'm out there who I got to meet. Oh my gosh, what a great guy, what a great story that is. But I've never taken the BB gun out of the box. I'm not a killer, out of hunter. I'm not a vegan either. Like look, I love a good steak as long as I don't have to look at it through the process and you bring it to me medium rare with perhaps some garlic butter or some flar bra on top. I get it. But total brain fart. But I still have those hard days. And so reaching out to people and having that fellowship again, that commonality of sobriety and knowing that I don't have to put that garbage back in this vessel. I feel like my job here is to say to people, there's hope. There's hope and you don't have to buy anything, you don't have to do anything. This is how it worked for me. It was about being healthy, it was about putting myself first, it was about learning to love myself. It was about learning that the things that may have happened to me as a young person were outside my control, even outside my mom, who as I shared some of this, she took that shame out. So like no, no mom, don't do it. You were 18 with a kid. And then a single parent, like she was gone, later on went to graduate school, became successful in the medical industry. But that came at at a choice for her. Do I put food on the table and pursue this career? How do you balance that with the kid? At a time, Jen X, look, they made a fucking commercial that said it's 10 o'clock, do you know where your kids are? Because nobody fucking knew where we were. We are, you talk about the forgotten generation. Like I had a quarter in my pocket and my BMX huffy, because we couldn't afford Mongoose. I'd be miles away in the creek blowing shit up. So so I told my mom, don't wear that guilt and she she'll never get the full story. She doesn't need it. She doesn't need to carry that, but she did the best she could. And so I look at that as kind of the foundation for how my parent today is. I don't have those headwinds that she does. I was 46 when my daughter was born, established in my career in a in a beautiful home with it with a solid marriage founded on some struggle in the beginning with my drinking. Thank God for my life who stayed behind me sometimes pushing me, lifting me up when I couldn't lift myself up there during those those blackout periods where I had to wake up and shamefully try to piece together what I had done and said the night before and how much damage had I inflicted on her, right? There's a in rescue diving first role of rescuing somebody has never put yourself in harm's way. And that's that's very much what she did to me. She put herself in harm's way to help rescue me and kind of be there for me. Now look we're we're a couple of 17 years together. There's there's some spicy moments, but nobody's yelling nobody's slurring nobody's waking up going fuck is it over what did I do that I self-destruct this time again. And so life to me today is very much yoga being a dad being a husband being a responsible person at work. Living with some people would think is a normal life and for me it is a life that I almost didn't have and so each day I tried to cherish that with some gratitude. Again my online presence doesn't pay any of my bills my yoga teaching fees doesn't you know doesn't it reloads my Starbucks card. I'm grateful for that. Sorry not to plug those people. But I'm here to say that you don't have to suffer in silence. There is a way to be sobering. I think it's the same message you guys are bringing with this show right is let's just get together. Let's fellowship. Let's we can we can reminisce about some of the funny things that happen when drinking because oh my gosh I say some funny shit. Especially amplified when when when you had that magnifying of alcohol but there's a this is a good life and that it doesn't have to be that way but it all starts with today and our ability did not pick up that bottle and sometimes it's just that moment right sometimes I got to dial it back I can't even think about getting through the day I think about just this moment fellowship health fitness those are all the things that keep me going day-day. Sorry that was a little bit we went down the rabbit hole and that gout but yeah I always tell our guests I'm like we just provide the platform. First I'll start by saying that you guys have a lot of parallels in your story. I kept thinking that and then secondly it sounds like your yoga is your way of providing fellowship for other people too you know you get so much out of it and it's given you so much good and when you teach and when you help it is still I mean a little bit of it is self-serving because you are still learning and you are still growing and educating yourself and all of those things and it is that dopamine it is that feeling that you know propels you there are so many like natural highs you know that you get out of life by doing things and that's what it is is our brains are constantly chasing dopamine especially now in the world where everything is so digitized and it's like instant gratification. So for like two seconds we're like oh this is it go find something that's going to make you feel alive which is a shame and a whole issue in of itself but it is what it is and it's not going away. So when you learn that you don't have to fill those voids all the time and just to pause and sit in that stillness or if you have to fill them having the tools and the resources and the people to fill those faces that's what pulls you out of those moments where you're like I'm you know right now I'm struggling because my brother was the first one to tell me he's been so for six and a half years now you know it was when you were in the height of your drinking he's like the alcohol the use is a symptom of the issue so when you're wanting to drink when you're wanting to escape a lot of it too it's the addiction but it's the muscle memory you have conditioned I mean since you know 12 and I don't know how old you are when you had your first drink but however you know you've conditioned your right in your body to go to that so I think that regardless of how far you are in it even if it's just for a millisecond there's always going to be a little bit of that pool because especially when you're a child and that is the impression you're putting on your developing brain for a split second you may have that whole oh I want to drink no I don't you know it's I mean and it's lit it's not even that fast so I mean your story is just incredible and I love how you make it like look I didn't find these things because I was doing these like grandiose you know a maybe and wonderful things. I did what was in reach and what I felt was right and then that led me to something else and something else. Like you were saying, I just looked up like what's the closest. And I think that's so important for people because we all, we don't get to choose what situation we're born into, right? You don't get to choose your privilege, you don't get to choose your family. So it's not about knowing who or when or where it's about utilizing the resources that are in front of you. And just starting there, it doesn't have to be Costa Rica. It can be literally next door and it still has a big of an impact. And I just, I mean your story is just incredible but yeah, I'll let you kind of take over. I wanted to get that out first because there was like so many fucking parallels between you guys and how you like found yourself in sobriety and the dry drunk thing. But yeah, I mean yeah, it was a lot and I was telling Jess before you came on when you and I talked before, it's like my god, it's like our stories are exactly the same. Like you're completely regular. Yeah, you're age when you got sober, I basically, I did the same thing. And you know, it was the children and family and things like that. You look at your life and you're just like, what the fuck am I doing? Yeah, you know, I'm trying, it's like I'm losing everything for one thing. If I just give this one thing up, I gain everything. And that was a real eye opening experience for me. And it seems like you've really gone through the same thing. I mean, now it's just this, this world of opportunity has opened itself up to you and you're taking advantage of it. That's the big thing. Yeah, participating. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, obviously communities played, or fellowship has played a, you know, a huge role in my sobriety over the past three years as it has for you. I just, it's really cool to hear someone else tell their story. It's like I'm looking at you. It's like, man, this guy's telling my story. Especially with the physical fitness, because you were the same way. Like he played hockey. He was, he was an athlete his whole life. And then of course, like you get a job and he has three kids from previous relationship. Like when we met and he, I got pregnant. I was like, are you sure you want to do this? I'm just like all over the age of like 11 or 12. And he's like, no, I mean, it'll be different. Like I, I really feel like I have more to give to it. And, and they're all very close, but you'll talk about your like, I don't, I get to wake up every single day and see Lily. I get to take her to school. I get to go to the stuff. It's just different. But you had really lost yourself. I mean, you got very, very overweight when you were drinking very, and I mean, if you see pictures, I mean, literally, like, unrecognizable. And when he got sober, he did the same thing. He's, he would just be like, I'm going to go walk on the treadmill and be winded like within five minutes. And the push up thing, I think was the biggest because for so long, he's like, I can't even do like a quarter of a push up. I can't even hold myself up. I hate nuts. And so you made that initially like the first goal. Like I'm going to do a fucking push up all the way down and probably up. I'm going to do it. And now how many push ups can you do? I'm just cranking. And you do now, but that was like a huge, huge, huge thing. And you actually, I think started by doing yoga at first. Yeah, I was, I'm going to jump in Jackson's house. Uh-huh. Because he's like, well, maybe I just need to like align my body and stretch and work on breathing before I like jump. That was interesting. He couldn't do yoga. I thought I'd go was going to be like easy way to get into it. He's like, that's hard. Anything I'm ever going to do. My ass all forgot. I can believe it. I use muscles. I didn't know I had it, which is. Uh-huh. And then that billowed into, you know, you running and what we're running into now, though. And this is a lot of that. I have a mind is, you know, he's got to have hip surgery. He's walking around with his like, I was back all the time. And he had some oral surgery and couldn't work out for a couple days. And so he was like, man, like, I feel so good today. I said, right, because your body's been screaming at you to take a break and you were forced to take a break. And he's like, yeah, so good. I don't have pain. And now I was right back to it. So I always like get on him. I'm like, imagine just listening to the things your body's trying to tell you and just giving it what it means. He's like, no, I don't think so. And then you know, it's, yeah, it's a given take, right? But yeah, so, so many and the community and, you know, even starting this podcast is very similar to you starting yoga. He's like, what if we just had a podcast on that? We just like talked about some shit. Like, I don't know. Probably won't even last. And we've had so many people now reach out like saying, you know, giving advice like, you've got to monetize, you've got to monetize. And I'm like, look, I know that it's something we have to monetize. But I fucking refuse. I do not care what it takes. I will not monetize this podcast. I will never require for somebody to pay to watch these episodes and to pay for access to information. I can monetize other things. I refuse to do it. Pure hard stop the end because I respect that. Yeah, I, I, we started this podcast because we wanted to hear people's stories from all over the world. And we wanted people to listen and know everybody has a different story, but they're also all the same. Like, it doesn't matter how fucked up your thoughts or your absence or behaviors are. There are thousands, sometimes tens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of other people who have been there. I mean, not to be funny, but like a hold my beer moment. Like seriously. Yeah. And I mean, I just, I totally get what you're saying. Like we don't do this to parapels. We do this because it's just the fucking right thing to do. And we hear these stories and we have these communities. So I 100% appreciate and I come from nonprofit health care. I probably should have led with that when we met. I was single making like $40,000 a year and had resigned myself to. I don't even make it. It's just me. I didn't want kids. And when I get married, I worked in nonprofit health care. Very, very liberal and open. As I still land, but I'll let you use your imagination. And I remember meeting him and I'm like, I'm glad you have a big boy job because I'm not everything to make money. So having this podcast really like scratches at itch for me. And I think that you've kind of fallen in love with the world of it. You've always been in corporate world. And it was a little bit of an adjustment period for you too, but you've really fallen in love with that as well. Which I love because then we share it. Access service. Yeah. That's my love language. Access services, my love, love language. And yours is quality time. So you can imagine how those sometimes don't play very well. Yeah, look, there's the reciprocity of a good marriage. Right. It's never linear at everybody given 50% each day. Right. It's a big graph in my weight for 15 years. And let me tell you, it looks like this. I had got sidelined with injury. Somehow that injury put 30 pounds back on me because, hey, look, I love food. But I get that right. And so it's really life. It's just this series of peaks and values, right. And challenges and struggles and great wins and great rewards. And once we realize that that's a normal part of the journey, you just sometimes you got to hold on and get through those hard times, right. Moment by moment, minute by minute. And then you have these great times of elation. And if it was always like that every day, we would have no concept. There can be no darkness without shining light to expose it, right. And it's that that juxtaposition, ying and yang, good and bad. For me, it's the dark side and light side of Star Wars because when I turn seven, when I turn seven, Star Wars was in the theaters. And so my mom, which I had my friends, where I was like, why is your mom smoke a pipe? And so my mom's like puffing a profession. Nobody, she's not online. She want to like smoke in a bowl, getting stone, taking the carload of seven year old kids to see Star Wars. But at that time, back to this Catholic experience, right, to me, of this good and bad, I couldn't deal with this extreme. If I don't do these things, I won't get to the utopia. I won't get to heaven. I'll suffer for eternity and focus on Star Wars. And then when they introduce this dead element, right. And the second and what always be the second episode. Now I was like, oh shit. This is my religion, but it's just the position of good and bad that we see throughout world and light and dark. That speaks to this up and down rhythm that we have in life, right. And nobody gets out on scale, but if we find each other and we lift each other up and we do things like lead with kindness. And we're, and I'm kind until I get in the car, like I grew up driving and then, including that. So like, oh, my poor daughter, probably the first word cemented in her mind was, was an F bomb of like, in fact, I can tell you my son, the first word out of his mouth in the back seat was move, fucker. Because it's just that's that's when I had my most opportune moment to grow in patience and kindness. Like, and I'm like, look, I don't have high goals. The fucking speed limit. Could we just do that? Like to state the state suggests how far your car should be going. So this is my day. - I don't think this fucking guy, fake. - Oh my god. - It drives me crazy because I get triggered by other things, but I don't get triggered by traffic or stuff like, I don't know, I guess a very long time ago, I'm like, I expect people to do people things, you know? Like, I mean, in that time. - They need to do the things we want them to do. - Exactly. - But it's a speed limit. - Right. - They would all drive like me, the world will be such a bad speed. - Oh no. You gave yourself way too much traffic. - I'm not driving, I'm sorry. But yeah, he would be like, this fucker pulled out in front of me. I was like, oh, people were doing people things, you know, he's like, whatever. - Don't discount me. - Yeah. - Our daughter is 15, so she's driving now. And so I'll be in the passenger seat. And she started to do it. - So. - And she throws out an F bomb every once in a week. The whole like, Cousin, they're like, I don't care. I mean, it's a word. I don't care if you cause me. You have to know when it's appropriate. We're probably here. - I'm taking my nine, I'm taking my nine year old to the machine gun Kelly concert. So in three weeks. So I get it. - Yeah, I mean, there are just certain things that I'm like, I don't know, this is, it doesn't matter. But she'll like be driving and she'll be like, what the fuck are you doing? I'm like, Lily, no man. - I love it. I love it. - I love it. - I'm like, oh, yes. - In the car with your dad, please get me out of here. It's so funny. - That's awesome. - That's awesome. - Before we get to the last question, I do want you to know, I'm a huge star wars fan, by the way. And I just had this conversation yesterday that I think Empire is by far, it's in the top three films of all time. - Oh yeah. - What you were referring to is the second. - You need to tell them about your life, baby. - And yeah, I got that story for their time. But the other funny thing was too, I had huge bourbon collection and it was hard as hell for me to get rid of it. I sold it all. - That was one of our lives. - Big things. - Big fights. - And just recently, I'm a huge toy collector and I collect new toys, new old stock toys. - Okay. - And I'm actually selling that to the exception of my star war stuff. I refused to sell that stuff. - Yes. - But I might as well pick it up. - We kid, I just, it was stuff that we couldn't afford. I didn't get a lot of and so was an adult. I was like, well, now I'm gonna start buying this shit. And the problem was, I would stay up late at night when I was drinking, buying this shit on eBay and it would show up a week or two. - I need a return to my room. - And the hell did I just buy? - Yeah, yeah. So now I'm going through and selling all that, which is kind of crazy. So again, it's the same shit. - Yeah, I'm mad at my dad. - I am gonna say about the little star wars and the little Vader and then we can get to the last question. I'm sorry, it's like burning a hole inside me. So we love to go to Disney. Ever since our daughter was three, we've gone multiple times a year. We're not like, I'm not gonna cause Disney adults. We don't like wear the stuff or whatever, but we love going and the star wars and all the things. So the last time we were there, we were in a gift shop, Star Wars gift shop. And there was this teeny tiny Darth Vader, right? Big head, tiny body. And I of all people was the one who failed it. And it's a magic, it's essentially a magic Aval except it's a little like a Spongebob. - And you press his head and he gives you advice. And if you press his head and then you don't press him after a while, he starts insulting you. - Oh my gosh. - Question. - And he'll really start snoring and being like, I'm getting awfully tired of your antics. You know, you think like that? - Yeah. Oh my gosh. - And so I was like, you have to buy this. I think that it is your, like if this house caught on fire, other than going back for the animals and the humans, you would go back. - It's like a career dog and that, right? - That's right. - I could priorities. - I regularly hear him in his office and I'll just hear Darth talking in the end of my face. - 'Cause he's asking a question, he'll give me his-- - They just have conversations. And I'm like, oh my gosh. - That was laugh on it that time. - I have a 10 year old little boy and I'm like, I'm so funny. It's so funny. I had to say that. It's pretty amazing. It is. It's my religion. My whole sleeve chest piece that's Star Wars, that star on my chest. I go back and forth between, look, I like the Empire, like the program that run it, order uniforms, job creation, think about how many jobs they created with building that that star. - Boys, boys. Right? That's what we need. - And our cable is single handedly one of the most badass motherboards on board. - Oh yeah. - Cool human being. - Even today, his public appearances and his presence. And I'm so glad to be back. I think the last Star Wars plug I might have is, I love these last ones. Look, I'm in old school, like episode, right? Four, five, and six will always be Star Wars. The prequels, Natalie Portman, you're gonna get me there. It's just that simple. These last series came out and to introduce a female Jedi kind of hero with this story. And the show, Princess Leia was an apprentice anymore. She was general, right? Now my daughter has had this ability to latch onto something much like the cousin that they pick up from us. This thing is such a very part of my story and my rationalization of good and bad and religion. But to see it opened up for girls now is just, as a girl dad, like, makes me, it's awesome. We have a girl, a heavy family, I'm all about that as women. That's right. Me too. If they weren't for bad as women, I wouldn't be here, right? My mom and wife. Yeah, they keep me going and now my daughter's the new boss. So I love it. Well, Jamie, before we get you out of here, and thank you again for joining us today and telling your story. Thanks for having me. Yeah, go back to your old drinking days and give me an old, funny-ass drinking story. We know you have one. Oh my gosh. OK, I'll take you to the early days. And the point of this story, one that's funny, I think it's funny. I didn't think it was funny at the time. Obviously, we don't always. But it is to talk about that courage that you get again, right? When you're drinking somehow the liquid courage that comes to be able to pop off to somebody who you know can whip your ass or, "Dore, I got this. I can drive this home." Like risking your family's life. I would just visit relatives and stuff and immediately sort out, when can I access their liquor right as a teen? And so I was visiting some cousins early as a teen before the rehab experience when I was thrust into the system. And I was hanging out with some cousins and would kept disappearing because I found the liquor under the sink in the kitchen. And so by the after we were unsupervised, Gen X kids, as we largely were, right? Like, be home when the lights, when the street lights are on. I proceeded to get ripped while Turkey 101. Again, as far like 13, my cousins were like, oh my gosh, can we practice your make-do-and-make-up on you? And I was like, sure, whatever. And so my girl, two girl cousins were all within a couple years of each other, start doing my make-up for me. And look, I'm not talking about any type of lifestyle. Whatever people do, they've been said happy as long as they're not harming others. That's your thing. Grievous on. And the more I would disappear and take shots of this whiskey and come back for make-up. And then it was do your hair and the aqua net of the '80s came out right and make up my hair, all spiked up. And then it was into a dare and this liquid courage. And they were like, well, you think you'd want to wear a dress? And I was like, sure, why not? Right? Like, this one, like, drooling and just ripped. And so they get me in full drag gear, if you will, right? Many skirt, high heels, make-up, hair. And then they dare me to walk outside. And this is a lot like that scene in Uncle Buck where he goes out to get the cat. And he's like, I got the cat. And I'm like, we don't have a cat. And it goes back outside and they lock them outside. Door slam shut and you just hear deadbolt, deadbolt, handle lock. And I am outside in this apartment complex full drag, 13 years old, blackout drunk, banging on the door. Let me in, let me in. And then right like today, this would have probably been on the news and helicopters and some sort of child protective services involved. My cousins are at a window pointing and laughing and just dying. And I am beyond myself trying to get back in. And it was probably a half hour before they'd let me back into the apartment. Oh my God. I'm like torture. By this point, right, make-up smeared everywhere. I looked like a lady that was doing the walk of shame and she'd had my panties and my purse kind of scenario. And they sometimes still, the story raises and resonates about-- every that time when we got you dressed up and locked up. And so funny these days looking back 40 some years on that story. But it really again is you do stupid shit when you got that liquid courage in you. And you compromise things, right? And so I'm glad that we can laugh about that today. But that was my one and only experience in dressing and wearing makeup. I will never put myself in that vulnerable position again. - There you go. - As long as I stay sober today. - That's right. - You probably looked beautiful. - I was stunning. These full lips, people are paying for these lips. I got these naturally. - You guys get all the good hair and lashes and lips and butts, it's not fair. - Yeah, look, there's alternatives available, but I can't think you guys enough for this time and you'll be able to just be genuine and talk about what it means to be where we are today. - Yeah, and again, people want to check out of you and your yoga and teaching and all the stuff. It's yogafromtheheights.com, is that correct? - It is, and yoga from the heights on Instagram is really where I just, again, not cliques, not likes, no subscription, I'm not generating revenue, it is. It's a journal for me to share this story and this experience, the good and the bad, to say if one person out there is like, "Oh shit, much like you and I, Ryan, right?" Oh, I have that very similar experience is, maybe there's some hope, maybe someone doesn't drink for one day and just has a moment of clarity, that's it. - That's what it's all about. - Well, thank you, Jamie, really appreciate you joining the show and we'll talk soon. - All right, thanks again, shout out to the heights. See ya. - See you buddy. (upbeat music) - If you love the podcast, which I know you do, please like, subscribe. - And hit that notification bell to get notified every time we post. - That's right, drop it on baby. - Word. (upbeat music) [Music]