The heavy weight of diet culture

I don't think, you know, parents were often thinking about, how do I talk to my daughter in the 90s about diet culture? I mean, they were just entrenched in it. That's like thinking you could see air. Nobody said diet culture in the 90s. Right. No, it wasn't a term. I mean, yes, there's a cultural disappearing that we're all naming. But I think parents are a lot more aware of the need to have these conversations. Hello, hello. I'm Brittany Luce, and you're listening to It's Been a Minute from NPR, a show about what's going on in culture and why it doesn't happen by accident. Over the last few years, it's become impossible to ignore the shrinking size of celebrities and influencers. Threading the needle of expressing concern without causing harm can be difficult. But what harm might we cause if we say nothing at all? To discuss how we talk about weight online, we're joined by licensed psychologist, Dr. Vanessa Scaringi, and Angelina Chapman, features writer at The Cut. Vanessa, Angelina, welcome to It's Been a Minute. Thanks for having us. So nice to be here. I'm happy to have you both here. This is a really important topic, and I'm excited to have both of your minds on it. So to start things off, when did you first notice that celebrity women's bodies were overall trending smaller? Angelina, we'll start with you. So I think for me, it was post-COVID, like post-real lockdowns. We saw Ozempic being talked about more. I think that's when we first started, us in the mainstream started to hear this drug exists. It's sort of this celebrity elixir. I remember then moments sort of in dribs and drabs, like, oh, now Amy Schumer's there, and she's a lot more thin, and she's talking about liposuction. And then there was the Wicked Press tour for the first movie. That obviously brought up a lot of dialogue around Ariana's weight. I think there was a season three of Emily in Paris sometime in that period. Like, it just felt like a bit of a curtain open, and now we're in the world, and people are looking a little different. So I'm not sure I clocked it as like, just thinness necessarily. But end of last year, it really just felt like the red carpet is a parade of skeletons. That's how I felt. Just looking at these images, boom, boom, boom, boom. Everyone just looked a lot more thin. And that's when it felt like sort of a trend worth naming for me. Mm-hmm. And Vanessa, like, had you noticed this as well? Yeah, I mean, clinically, absolutely. I think, you know, eating disorders were on the rise during COVID even. But I do, you know, I pay attention to some of the celebrity stuff as well. And obviously, the introduction of Ozempic was like a game changer. And I remember Kim Kardashian's Met Gala, the reveal of like, when she lost a bunch of weight to fit into the Marilyn Monroe dress. And I just, I remember feeling like, okay, now we're talking about weight loss publicly, again, in a kind of a gross way. Yeah, I was born in the late 80s. So I lived through the 90s as a girl child. And it was a teenager in the early 2000s. So I feel like a lot of my formative years were kind of shaped by talking about weight, I think, in the way that you're discussing, Vanessa, like in a very obvious, very blatant, not couched at all manner, where. where the idea, the assumption, the underlying assumption is that thinner is better. Well, the underlying assumption, also the pretty overt assumption is that thinner is better. But I noticed that sort of change in the way that people, not just celebrities, but everyday people, and even everyday people talking about celebrities, had kind of trended back in that direction, where again, the assumption is that smaller is better, thin is better. It felt like a kind of reversal. It felt really different than the previous sort of years. I wonder, like, when did you both realize that you were going to be a celebrity? And when did you both realize that you the rest of America was also noticing this kind of shift in, I guess, body trends, which is a bizarre phrase, but it seems like it applies. Well, I spend so much time online for my job, for better for worse, a lot of time on Reddit, a lot of time in comment sections. So I really started to notice under photos of some of these women, you know, just the comments, were like, a tone of worry, which I hadn't seen before. Like, I was looking last night, Natalia Dyer from Stranger Things, who plays Nancy Wheeler, a photo of her from the red carpet, the first three comments are like, we're worried about you. This is too thin. Are you okay? Are you healthy? Like, it started to be sort of like, everyone's now a bit of a doctor, like, um, wanting to maybe diagnose, but also, just like that concerned friend, which I'm not used to from online comments, which you tend to think of as like, eat a cheeseburger, really nasty sort of bullying, like, even if you're going to comment on someone being fat or thin, you're going to do it in a mean way. And so I was sort of taken aback that and maybe a little pleasantly surprised that people were seem to be trying to find different ways to engage with this ways that weren't as sinister, or mean girl especially with food influencers, who I, you know, cover as part of my job. There's one in particular, she or half baked harvest is her brand. She was she was doing a press tour, I think about a new book and people were really like, expressing a lot of concern. It was like people wanted to dig in and they were fighting in the comments. And it was this whole dialogue. Yeah, that I will say the fighting in the comments is something I have seen across different like, I've seen a lot of people kind of going back and forth in a way that I'm like, hmm, there's a deeper sort of discussion happening here. I think sort of the big question is, can how do we talk about women's bodies? Can we talk about women's bodies, especially those of us in a certain generation of feminism, were really taught not to say anything like it's rude. It's not feminist, regardless of what your comment is, like, keep it to yourself. Don't talk about women's bodies. There's sort of no right answer. And now I'm seeing this shift of people thinking that silence is is not okay is maybe not the most progressive thing, but really fumbling around with how to talk about it. And I'm so curious to hear what Vanessa has to say, from like a clinical perspective on that. Yeah, I'm sure there's there's do's and don'ts. And I see people in comment sections, like, trying their best, I think some people in good faith, but it's it's tricky, right? It's like, how do you how do you talk about? Something like this? It's really hard. Yeah, totally. I, I noticed that there was a lot more frustration with the algorithm, like serving people up certain brands or images. And I know, I work with clients that are very intentional with who they follow and how they shape their online presence. And just a massive setback in the sense of like, I think I, I'm getting served up images that are unhealthy in my recovery process. And now I'm feeling like, oh, I'm like, wait, what's real? Is this really happening? And so I actually kind of think it's important to be talking about this cultural shift in this way of, you know, having nuanced conversations, because it can feel like, you know, we're being gaslit if we're not talking about it. I had clients really say, like, I feel like I'm going crazy. Are people losing a lot of weight? And is this happening like across the board? It feels like everyone is losing weight all of a sudden. And so just to be able to say, yeah, you know, you're not the only one seeing that, I think can be really validating for someone who's struggling with body image and on some kind of recovery journey. So I saw a lot of frustration with the change. Obviously, celebrity women are in no way representative of all women, but their images do filter down to everyday women. You know, especially, especially young women. You know, I mean, even like you just started to remark, Vanessa, like, I'm wondering, like, in your practice, how are you seeing that show up? I think if someone is predisposed to have any kind of disordered eating experience, or they have body image issues, they're sort of always surveilling the women around them. You know, I think it's just kind of part of the process where they're critical towards themselves, and they tend to be kind of critical or just mindful of others as well. And so I think that they tend to be hyper aware of any kind of change in someone's appearance, especially such dramatic loss. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I wonder also, Angeline, I mean, you interviewed moms who were concerned about their teenage daughters. Like, what did you hear and see talking to them? These stories were so sad. And I have to say, not even teenage, we're talking like, between six and nine years old. Also, you know, these are, I think for for the teenagers, the stories were more around like what Vanessa is saying, like, this is my daughter had an eating disorder, she went and saw Wicked. And all of a sudden, you know, she's like, you know, she's like, you know, she's like, she's, you know, activated again, she's not eating at Thanksgiving dinner, she's just talking about wanting to lose weight sort of a slide back into the disordered eating but for the younger girls it's sort of you know there's not that that vocabulary that awareness necessarily of what an eating disorder is so it's almost more heartbreaking because you have like a seven year old coming home saying mommy I want my clavicles hollowed out you know the way Ariana's looked and that's so disheartening you have to start having conversations so much earlier than I think maybe other generations were prepared to don't go anywhere I need to be reminded the toll that this takes on celebrities because it's very easy in this day and age of income inequality to just be like these are rich women they are making little girls want to have eating disorders and like gain some weight we've got more coming up after the break you you're talking to moms of girls who are somewhere you know between the ages of six and nine at first when I hear that it breaks my heart but also then I think back to being between the ages of six and nine getting the American Girl magazine in the mail or whatever and seeing how cute and thin the girls on the magazine were and I also as a child was also like quite thin and also was very cute I didn't have social media at that at that point in time do you know saying I didn't have internet but it's like but like you know an obsession with being thin and fat phobia are so pervasive in our society it sounds like six to six to nine years old it's I mean that sounds violent to me that's so young but also I think back to being that age and I certainly remember probably by the time I was probably nine maybe or ten starting to have some awareness of you know like the idea of even as a child that thinner being better was you know an important thing and I I don't think I'm necessarily alone in that but now obviously being 38 I mean that sounds like it sounds ludicrous um but you know that's the reality of the world that we live in and now I mean there is sort of a benefit just to your point Brittany about the cultural conversation opening up that those conversations I don't think you know parents were often thinking about how do I talk to my daughter in the 90s about diet culture I mean they were just entrenched in it yeah I don't even know I mean that's like yeah that's like thinking you could see air like we were not nobody said diet culture in the 90s right no it wasn't a term no and so we do have that benefit now I mean yes there's a cultural disappearing that we're all naming um but I think parents are a lot more aware of the need to have these conversations or somehow insulate their families their children um from images in the best way they can I agree with that oh go ahead no I just think it's that that is it can feel often with with social media like a problem is so much worse but but often it's it's just because we're we're naming it and we're talking about it and it's messy so it's consuming but obviously I believe that this is a better better alternative than the one we're describing that we probably all relatively grew up in where it was just like your mom's or your your parent is not pulling you aside saying hey little Angelina you know you you know you don't need to look up to this person necessarily and your body's beautiful the way it is like they're just there wasn't the same um education around that so I do think as messy as this is it's really good and to focus on thinness rather than uh you know calling Nicole Richie fat or Britney Spears fat or Jessica Simpson fat which we all lived through in the early aughts like that's ridiculous at least we're talking about thinness and how scary it can be right we live in a society that puts a lot of pressure on women to look a certain way so it's not necessarily like I don't know if it's um certainly not it's certainly not my intent to shame any of these women because I mean you know they're but for the grace of God go I but you know both of you also agree that we shouldn't just ignore what we're seeing so like I like where is the line here I don't know I don't know like we like like how do we differentiate between engaging thoughtfully right and discussing these things because they are important like we talked about the way that they these images trickle down to younger women they trickle down to grown women as well right I mean they trickle down to plenty of grown women as well um like how do we differentiate between engaging thoughtfully and what could be you know considered you know public shaming or even like abuse to a certain degree of these public figures who are all like you know like you know like you know like you know under a considerable amount of pressure and might already be dealing with health challenges having to do with you know how they are trying to maintain their body size yeah totally actually um eating disorders are on the rise in older women so that's you know interesting to point that it's not just affecting oh yeah um they are seeking I think treatment more so that's good but yeah I think um having nuanced conversation is like the key um and I'm totally from that you know feminist school thought of we don't talk about other women's bodies that's not that's not good um and it's part of the work that I do like commenting on people's bodies is just like a no go we don't do that and yet I'm finding myself really pulled to want to talk a little bit more about diet culture and the pressures that the that we're facing and how um it's intensified and so I think zooming out and getting a lot more clear that this is a cultural systemic issue that we're all facing um I think it's a really important thing to do and I think it's a really important that helps shield some of the shaming but I've seen I mean I just horrible things I think I saw Kelly Osbourne talking about um the backlash that she was experiencing and um she addressed it I think that's happening a lot more celebrities are saying can you stop publicly shaming me about my body I mean I think back even you just bringing up Kelly Osbourne I remember people the way people were talking about her 20 years ago when her body was larger right she can't win can't win I mean it's it's like um yeah I imagine that someone in that position that is uh in her specific position right where she where she was like honestly bullied um and harassed by people for being in what they felt was a larger body and then now where people are expressing concern over what they might feel you know her body's looking too thin um I imagine that like just as a human being that that's probably a lot to handle oh yeah and I I think you know it's really useful to be talking especially to young women and I mean that's part of the work that I do is like our worth is not about our what we look like that's just not how we live in the world like we don't yes these celebrities do like you're saying um their livelihood depends on it but for like the average person this is this is not where we get worth from um and I think trying to help kind of understand and disentangle like there are other issues at play here we're all living in this very culture where we're being sold a bunch of stuff like how can we kind of separate our own worth from um what's kind of happening around us and how we're sort of pulled into these experiences of wanting to lose weight like you know why is that happening I think getting really critical helping people get critical um is what I like to see but I also have the benefit of not being online like I get to have really nuanced conversations with people you know for a 50 minute session so like that's where we get to do that work um and I think that's a really good um but I do think that you know just getting a snapshot of the online rhetoric is really scary and it can feel very like oh so now we're just doing this like 90s shaming about bodies just in a different way um that's not helping anyone yeah it's so interesting one thing I'm thinking about a lot because I have done a bunch of reporting on GLP-1s is just how how much more accessible it is for young women to get thin like there is literally if you can't get thin you can't afford it and it is becoming more affordable a pill you can take you know to lose weight and and maintain thinness so a lot of the conversations I have with young women are they're actively just trying to avoid going on a GLP-1 because everyone around them is on it and even if they're not you know they don't need it for medical reasons or they're not obese they're going well why not like I'm gonna get a hotter boyfriend I'm gonna you know be treated better on my cheerleading team I'm gonna get a better job I'm gonna get a better job I'm gonna get a I'm gonna fit in better with my friends like it is um yeah it's never been easier to be thin I think and so that um I bring that up just to say add a layer of why I think we need to be talking about this because there's such a force that we have to sort of push back against right now um and I guess the way I think about it um is from a therapy perspective like in my own life um where I've been taught like talk about your feelings talk about how you feel so I actually love to see people say I'm worried I think that's so much better than you look nasty you you know what whatever whatever sort of insult they're just gonna sling um it feels so much more productive to lead with emotion oh I feel scared um well it's like seeing I message also to take it back and I message also conflict yeah like saying like I feel instead of yeah placing it on somebody else yeah it just feels like it brings down even online in comment sections, it makes it, it just turns the heat down. So I really, I think, I think being personal of, I love seeing people who have struggled with their body in ways telling those stories. I think so much of body pressure is like something we deal with in silence. And we don't, we don't talk about, we don't share, we don't connect. So I think that can be a really positive thing. Yeah. Feelings over judgment. I mean, even just the, like, you know, we're, we're talking about, um, you know, how to sort of communicate with each other in these comments. Cause that's where people, you know, are online. That's, or even in real life, right. When we're having conversations about these things, cause also these conversations are being had in group chats. They are being had over drinks. They are being had over brunch. Um, it's, this is, this is something that everybody's talking about, at least among a lot of women that I know this is coming up. Yeah. Um, but also we've all seen over the years, like how damaging it can be for a lot of these women in question, a lot of these celebrity women, like these girls, some of these girls had real deal nervous breakdowns, you know, over the way people have talked, talked about and spoken about their bodies. Um, it actually, um, something that really drove home for me sort of how, um, I don't know. I think how, how much more careful we could all be when kind of engaging in these conversations, um, is this movie. I don't know if either one of you seen it. It's really good. And I, I like, I, I loved it. And, um, I hope other people see it. It's called Maddie's Secret, um, written and directed by, and also starring a comedian, John Early. And he plays this character named Maddie. She's a food influencer, uh, who makes these videos online, like recipes, cooking videos. Um, and she gets fat shamed, like in the comments of the videos. And it ends up, it ends up triggering her, like, you know, this, you know, eating disorder that she had dealt with when she was younger. And, um, I, it, it's interesting. I mean, the movie's interesting on a lot of levels. Like John is this man who's playing Maddie as a woman. It was like, by having a man play this character, whether that was the intent or not, it created a situation where, um, I don't know. It, it almost made the abuse even more plain because it wasn't how, like, I don't, the audience doesn't get the opportunity to sit there and think like, well, she's not that pretty, or she's not that perfect, or she's not that thin, which is what they do. Right. And, and, and movies like this a lot of the time. Um, yeah, it was really, it was really interesting. And it really, really, really made me think a lot, um, just how pervasive and like, just how sort of primed we are to sort of judge, uh, obviously famous women's bodies, but to a certain degree, it's a part of our social training to sort of judge each other's bodies and everyday women's bodies like this as well. Yeah. And I think, especially since, you know, we're not just talking about celebrities because we're living through this time period where there's influencers, they aren't that famous, right? Like a lot, they might have a lot of followers, but they're often very niche. They may not have the money. Right. But they're still being judged by millions of people. And there's that effect. And I, I, I think, and maybe this is too much to ask. Um, I won't say I'm the most sympathetic to celebrities in general, but I, I, I do think it's like, say something if you can, because I think humanizing yourself, even Kelly Osbourne saying, I think she made a video after that saying, guys, I'm grieving my, her dad had just died. You know, how does grief play into your eating habits, whatever it is. Um, I think sometimes the silence causes people to just fill in the gap with the nastiest, worst assumptions. And I really like Ariana Grande, I think did this years ago too, not recently. But went online and sort of address the impacts. And I think I need to be reminded the toll that this takes on celebrities, because it's very easy in this day and age of income inequality to just be like, these are rich women. They are making little girls want to have eating disorders and like gain some weight. Right. Like there's a part of me that wants to go there and just sort of be angry and like, guys be responsible. But Brittany, I love that you're bringing in the empathy of like, no, they're, they're, they're money making is tied to, you know, what their bodies look like. Um, they are real people. And I think, you know, they, they have platforms now. They don't need to go. They don't need to wait for the media to ask them to do an interview. They can hop online and talk about the impact. Don't go anywhere. Being able to have nuanced, uh, conversations that include diet culture and how dangerous that world is. To me, it's this really important. We've got more coming up after the break. I wonder, I mean, we're in such a different place now, right now in the 2020s, post COVID, post Ozempic, post GLP one. Um, I, then we were like 10 years ago in the 2010s when it felt like we were kind of like in the bosom of the body positivity movement. Like, I don't know. A lot of ways are current. It feels like a pendulum swing away from all that. I wonder like how, how might our language and understanding of what many people are considering extreme thinness, um, like how has that changed in, in the years since the body positivity movement? Well, I was, you know, as you were talking, I was thinking about the need to talk about our anger, like maybe in safe places and maybe in real life and are personally with people we trust about things like that. Like we had a moment where, we were, um, seeing more diversity. It felt safer and to move through the world in a different body. Um, and to have those conversations about like, I'm mad that that went away. I think there's this assumption that this era of thinness is like here to stay. I, I don't, I don't move through the world thinking it has to stay in my personal circle. Like I don't, I can reject these norms. I don't have to, um, just ascribe to, oh, this is just how it is. Um, I think it's dangerous when we kind of have that attitude. And I think people are mad, um, about the fact that it was, there was some, a break in the clouds. Like it felt like there was some safety. And I think it's important to be able to talk freely about that anger. I think it gets redirected towards these celebrities, unfortunately, because they're sort of the ones, um, who are, that we see they're the most visible. Um, and, you know, and they're, we sort of assume that they're the ones who are, um, selling us this bill of goods. It's not them. I mean, I think they're just products of a bigger system. And so I do think it's really important to be able to have freely, you know, freely speak with people and in ways that, um, reflects the real emotion there. You know, I think in a lot of ways, like what we're talking about, I think with this conversation is like, we have merged like our understanding of healthy with a specific body type or a specific like look of a body. Why do you think we place so much emphasis on visual interpretations of what we assume health is? Oh, I mean the wellness industry, right? That's like a, what is it? A billion trillion dollar industry. I mean, I think that that industry since COVID even has changed so dramatically and who, I mean, like you're just, you're talking about influencers and, um, that world has shifted so dramatically and it's all about visuals. I mean, it's really disturbing, right? I mean, it's all about visuals. I mean, it's really disturbing. Um, health at every size is a very like it. I mean, I thought it went mainstream for a minute there, but the idea that we're not, um, we're not what we look like. Our health is not BMI is a terrible indicator of health. We know that. Um, but yeah, I think we're, it's, it's shiny. It's, it's a, you know, aesthetically it kind of, um, it's just what we're used to. We live in it's diet culture has doubled down recently. So I just think that we've grown so much more and, you know, I think that, you know, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're growing, we're, we're growing, we're growing, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're growing, we're, we're, we're, we're growing, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're really being, um, challenged. And I, I don't think it's being challenged right now. And if anything, it's being challenged in this other way of like, well, that thinness is bad. That's not the good thinness. It's this other kind of like, it's the sculpt that you're describing. That thinness is the good thinness. Like, um, it's so messed up. I mean, we've lost the plot. You know, I just go back to, it's all so accessible, whether we're talking about the ability to lose weight or to, you know, freeze our faces. Like all of this has is so mainstream. This is not, these aren't rare fried procedures of A-list celebrities. This is now an expectation that you're a 40 year old woman. You want to lose weight, go on a GLP-1, get Botox, get some sculpting done. There's so many, you can, I can hop down, I can walk five minutes and go to a med spa on my lunch break and get some of these procedures. And they're expensive, but they're not that, they're becoming cheaper as they're become more mainstream, you know, that it drives the price down. So I just think it's as it becomes more, as more people do it, and it's not just celebrities you see, it's your sister, it's your neighbor, it's your colleague, and it's the influencers and it's the celebrities. It's a hard force to resist. No, I mean, I mean, yeah, like you said, it's not like you can just throw your phone in the ocean and think this will never happen. ever come up again like it's really pervasive to get a little personal i'm i'm like a year and a half postpartum now gained weight after having a kid very normal thing really hard for me to lose in a non-glp1 era it's more easy to accept okay listen i'm 40 i don't have time to work out eat well i'm a new mom now i'm thinking am i supposed to be going on wagovi like i could yeah right it's there and this is me who's like feminist writing for a progressive women's magazine someone who thinks critically about these issues if i'm feeling that temptation what is a teenage girl going into college feeling when someone writes something nasty about her on social media it's so tough you you angelina you spoke with like you know you spoke with young women who are trying to navigate this sort of new world that we're in now which maybe i maybe to them it doesn't necessarily feel like a new world right because this is like the world that they're like coming up in um but you know we're in this place now where like we have this increasing availability of glp1s for weight loss in the past i'm really glad you brought this up in the past if you couldn't lose the weight you might just go it is what it is um and that does feel like a missing table leg right now um in this entire conversation how how do you see this shaping up for young women i think it's it's awful i think right now what i'm hearing from young women is um they're taking glp1s for example in secret because they don't want the other girls to know they've lost weight by taking glp1s and so what i'm not just about being thin it's also about doing it in a certain the right way and like i really think the most dangerous thing right now is the shame around the thinness that the lengths people are going to to be thin um and that's where we're going to see people you know get really sick um if not worse like we need to be at least shining some light on the fact that um basically anyone can have access to these drugs that are not meant for short-term weight loss and not really meant for young women and i think that's a really good um and so let's let's talk about what they are let's talk about what it's doing to your body let's talk about why you're taking them let's just name it like let's just say it's tempting it's there we can't look away i think the intentionality piece is something that i keep wanting to like chime in and talk about too is the idea that um if people at least get in touch with their intention it helps slow down the the train like um i think you know i've seen all of this um and i think it's a really good thing to do and i think it's a really good thing to do in my practice too that there's secretive behaviors they're sharing with roommates and all these different um really dangerous behaviors and how can people start to get in touch with like what's the what's the goal here like why i'm what am i to what end am i going to be on a glp-1 if i'm you know 25 and wanting to lose three pounds i think of the mean girls like you know i gotta lose three pounds i just want to lose three pounds yeah yeah um and getting people to like get really in touch with okay this harm reduction sure like how can i be talking about this more reduce the shame um and also be more intentional about like what am i doing here is there a an end goal i think about safety people wanting to feel better in the world like it's a hard world out there and things are you know it's pretty bleak there's always something happening doom scrolling all the things that we're exposed to and so you know to have something that feels like i have a point of safety in the world or control um i get it and like that's it's not it's a it's gonna aid you in some kind of journey for a hot minute it's not the worst thing in the world sure and it's like not gonna really be a long-term strategy for feeling better you know it seems like we will continue to see this trend of thinner and thinner bodies on red carpets on world tours in our tv and film screens um so how should we talk about this like what can we say to ourselves to each other and most importantly you know how can we talk about this with the young people in our lives yeah i think um it's important first of all it's important to be talking about it in any way shape or form so i think if people are talking about it that's great if there's nuance that's better um if people are able to name that there's a system of diet culture in the mix that's even better you know being able to talk about the bigger systemic issues that are um really disheartening like yeah it's not going away like you angelina you've said it's never been easier to to get thin like that's terrifying to be able to talk about the fears i think if parents are being able to talk about that that's huge it can there's a trickle down in the same way that there's a trickle down you know just seeing these images there can be a trickle down in the sense of like what are we going to do here how can we introduce this conversation you know in schools and in groups of young women um and so i think being able to have nuanced uh conversations that include diet culture and how dangerous that world is to me is is really important yeah and i have you know i don't obviously come at this from a clinical standpoint i'm not an expert i you know vanessa has said so many helpful things in terms of how to have these conversations i can speak to for myself this is a little woo-woo and a little squishy but i lately have just been trying to like lean into pleasure you know in in a sort of i think i i think thinness and glp ones in particular we know that a side effect is like for some people can be just losing desire um i think a colleague of mine wrote a great piece called life in beige about her experience on glp ones and it's just sort of yeah you know everything's turned down and so to counter that in my own life i've been trying to like this pizza this beautiful day like just sort of pleasure how nice it is to be human um to give in to and indulgence um just as like a life philosophy and then also just to as i get older um to get pleasure in other aspects of my life oh i you know i wrote such a great piece i'm so happy about that oh i'm having such a nice time as a mother like just to shift the focus you know as a young woman uh the focus was so much on my body my makeup you know just i was so attuned oh it's 12 p.m i have to reapply it was like the it really ruled my life beauty beauty standards body standards all of this and and i do as i get older i'm getting so much joy out of rebelling against that and saying like i'm funnier i'm more confident i like myself more i think i'm a cool mom like just sort of just getting pleasure in in in other ways than my jean size which has gone up no i mean that's beautiful i mean that that's a very it's not easy what you're describing but it's not easy endeavor it's a word it's not easy it's not easy and i'm old i'm 40 and it's taken a long time to even be able to say those words but i think even just the slightest reframe in moments can help yeah i think um i absolutely i think that can be an anecdote for sure i also think about telling that to 20 an 18 year old feels very different than a 25 year old and a 30 you know i think as we move through life um we can start to create some distance between these beauty standards and our self-worth um i think it's harder when people move through the world as influencers but capturing everything they possibly can and they do feel like i had this thought i was thinking like i'm not a celebrity like okay who cares what my you know but i think some like people are more celebrities than they've ever been right there's just more of an audience yeah yeah yeah for the average person than there ever has been before i totally get that oh my gosh um i really appreciate this conversation so much vanessa angelina thank you both thank you so much thank you brandy it's such a pleasure hey it's been a minute watchers we are so glad you are enjoying our show on youtube but we'd like to learn a little bit more about you so could you help us out by taking a short anonymous survey it takes less than five minutes and it will really go a long way in making better shows for you the survey is at n.com dot pr forward slash i bam that's i b a m the link will also be in our episode description below thank you so much you