The Heart of Behavior Analysis: Building Trust, Respect, and Rapport

[Music] Hello, hello, hello everyone. Welcome to SafeSpace the ABA podcast. My name is Michelle Zeman. Be sure to listen to your two code words so that way you can get your free CEUs. I am super excited today to introduce you to my guest. My guest is, you know, it's interesting because there's not a whole lot of neurodivergent BCBAs out there. And, you know, being able to connect with a neurodivergent BCBA like myself is really very special to me. So I'm super excited to welcome Matt Tapia, BCBA, onto the podcast. Matt, thank you for joining me tonight. Thank you so much, Michelle, for inviting me and allowing me to be on your podcast. And just be able to share some hopefully helpful information. So thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Yeah, of course. Thank you for being here. Tell us a little bit about how you got into ABA. Yeah, I guess I want to say like, I think I got into ABA the same way other people might have gone into it, but I guess all our journeys are unique. So I got into ABA when I was in my undergraduate classes. And I was studying psychology as my bachelor's degree. And I was studying a class, it was a class called Human Learning with Sean Lairway. And he was lecturing about operational conditioning and classical conditioning. And just talking about a lot of BF Skinner, like how we learn and how he use a lot of technical terms, like unconditioned stimulus and conditioned stimulus and unconditioned response or UCR and conditioned response. And I really love that class because it just made sense to me. I know the language was a little hard to get around, but so he did that class. He really had us do reinforcement on ourselves. He had us basically designed a plan where we had to pick a behavior. And my behavior, I remember at the time, was exercising. And I said, you know, I want to give more physical activities. So I designed a plan where I would provide myself reinforcement somehow. So I had to get my whole, my roommates involved, my friends involved, my family involved and said, hey, you guys, if I exercised for like X amount of times, can you guys like provide me some reinforcement? So they could help me accountable. And they did. They were obliged. So my dad would, he knew that I liked sushi. So he would take me after sushi on Fridays. Or like my roommates would like, you know, doordash sushi or something like that. So sometimes I would treat myself to like, OK, I would, if I exercised at least 30 minutes a day for a week, I would treat myself to a movie. Because I was really reinforcing for me going out to see a movie, like especially at the time, this was back in 2014. I think I saw who's interstellar maybe was a good movie at the time I saw. I don't know when that came out. I saw my brother. My brother took me to see it and he paid for it because I exercised for that day. So I think that class kind of sparked my interest in ABA. And I didn't know what ABA was at the time. He didn't call it ABA either. And then I found out my brother who was studying cognitive science Irvine. He got a job in ABA. And I saw he posted it and I said, hey, you're working with-- you're working-- he posted like, oh, I'm a behavior technician. And I'm working with autistic children. And I said, that is so cool. That's what I want to do. So that's kind of how I learned about it from him. So it was kind of like a perfect time where I was learning about it in class. And I was also-- my brother was doing it. He just got a job at an agency. And so I said, I'm going to do that. And I said, where do you find that job? And he's like, oh, type in ABA in Google. I'm like, OK. So I did. And I found a job and that's how I got into it. So I was a behavior technician. Yeah. Nice. Nice. And it's so interesting what your concepts from classes can really kind of teach you, especially when you're providing your own self-reinforced day. You're kind of doing your own version of self-monitoring. And you want people to hold you accountable because you're trying to ultimately change this particular behavior about yourself. So that's really cool that you were able to kind of apply that from your class. Yeah, absolutely. I found it really helpful. I thought, after I took that class, I remember thinking, this makes sense to me. This actually results in behavior change. And I was like, woo, actually, exercise quite a bit. Did it last? No. Maybe it's after the class. I was like, OK, I'm done for this. I mean, I got the A. I'm like, I don't need to keep doing this. So I guess it was the A that was also reinforced. It wasn't just the tangible-- well, I guess an A is a tangible reinforcer. But it was like, yeah, so I stopped doing it after a while. But it worked in the moment for that class. Yeah, pay technically a higher GPA is definitely a tangible reinforcer that is highly motivated to be more important. So definitely. So tell us about how you went from being a BT to a BCVA. What drew you to wanting to evolve your skills and actually become a board certified behavior analyst? Yeah. So I think I kind of knew when I was an undergrad getting my bachelor's in psychology that I wanted to stay in this field. And the reason why I got in-- why I wanted to study psychology was really to understand myself. So I was diagnosed with autism, actually back then it was Asperger syndrome. Well, at least at the time, this was back in-- I mean, 97, 98. 1998, just to age myself there. And so my parents noticed when I was around six or five or six, they noticed that I was struggling in a lot of different ways. I had a hard time making friends. In school, I had a hard time staying focused. I had a hard time. I got bullied a lot in school. I remember that. And I was just seen as different. And so my teacher had told my parents, like, hey, you know what? I think there's something going on here. You guys should get it checked out. And so they did. They took me to the doctor and psychiatrist. And yeah, I got a diagnosis of Asperger syndrome at the time, which now is autism and the DSM. The current addition of the DSM is now autism spectrum disorder. And I think it was really exciting to be able to work with kids that had struggled. Like I did, I guess. I think part of me was like thinking, like, wow, you know, when I grew up, I didn't have a lot of supports. I didn't have ABA. I didn't have all these supports that nowadays we have. So I really wanted to work with that population. And I was really passionate about it. And I really loved it. When I first became a BT, I remember just being so excited, like, oh, I get the opportunity and the privilege of getting to work with these kids. And I was so fascinated. And I wanted to learn more. And I think part of me wanted to do it also to really get to know myself and figure out kind of where I started. So I think maybe it was my way of giving back in a way. But I was also curious to learn more about myself. So yeah, I was really passionate. And I really enjoyed it. I remember really loving it. I loved the work. I learned so much concepts. And I had a really great team that I worked with. When I was a BT, I had some amazing supervisors. I had some great fellow. So I was a BT before they came up with the RBTS. Great angel. So I was never an RBT. But-- Me too. Really? OK. I had a BT. So good. OK, good. I didn't age myself too much there. So I mean, yeah, I think I had a strong team that we were all pretty passionate about it. And I think I wanted to move further in this field. And I want to learn more about it. And I wanted to specialize in that. So I knew that kind of going into this, I want to learn more about autism and how it affects the kids, but also how it affects me and learn more about myself. So that's really what drove me to become an BCBA and move forward in the field. That's really awesome. It's kind of amazing to hear your story. Because you and I have a very similar story in a sense of like, you are diagnosed in the 1990s. I was diagnosed in '95 with what was considered pervasive developmental disorder, not other specified. At the time, I was considered borderline severe-- And it got-- NOS. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And I was lucky enough to have some of the services. We did have ABA, but the thing was ABA back in the '90s is so different from ABA today. You know, obviously we have the BACB. We have BCABAs. the BCBAs, our VTs, we have all of these like alphabet soup acronyms basically to describe what we're doing. We're back then we had a behavior coach and they did a parent training model essentially. And so it's kind of interesting to see how different and how much ABA has evolved. And also I just want to talk a little bit about you know your experience with being bullied. It's really it's really so sad because you know neurodivergent people are bullied every single day. You know we are at a higher statistic of getting bullied and potentially assaulted as a result of bullying. I know personally I grew up being bullied myself for being different. And I also was overweight as a child. So that also had a big target on my back. So you know I just want to say like I am so sorry you went through that. And I 100% resonate with you on that too. I think it's for sharing that I think that's really helpful to hear you know your experiences as well. And kind of helps I think realize like we're not alone like yes we go through those experiences. And bullying is a it's a serious issue. I mean I think when you know I remember growing up with it and you know they're great school. And I was constantly bullied. I was bullied because I was different. And there's so many points I want to touch on here. So I'm trying to figure out where to start. But I remember growing up in grade school and I remember thinking like I felt like that's in the messaging that my mind gave me was like you don't belong here. You are not like these people. And I knew that in a rage. I felt like I didn't know how to put words to it but I felt it. I felt like I just didn't belong anywhere. I felt like I was so different that. And this message and cliche but I felt like an alien on a planet where like oh am I the only one that feels like this and I think I had that narrative for a long time. Like feeling so alone. I had a hard time making friends and I would watch other people and other other kids in my classes and it seems to come so natural to them. It's like okay they it was effortless for them and for me I was overanalyzing it and thinking about it. And um it was hard. It was so struggling because I knew like I wouldn't see my brother. So I come from a family of three and I have three brothers and for them it was so easy. They had so many friends and they bring their friends over from you know from school to their house. And for me it's like I didn't have friends. I'm like how do you guys do that? Yeah. I think I tried so hard but I kind of gave up and so I would just spend my time like either on during recess or during lunch kind of by myself either in recess reading a book or by myself or lunch by eating by myself. And I think a lot of people can relate to that even if you're not autistic like uh yeah happens you know like eating by yourself like in the bathroom. You know in a stall by yourself because you don't want to be seen alone by anyone. Um but at the same time like it's just so hard to talk to people I make friends and that was something I really had a hard time with up until I think college when I finally started actually working on it. Yeah I think they're just yeah I could I can understand that especially like you know it's unfortunately are very very mean um as you as you may or may not know kids can be really mean and it's like you know being being neurodivergent affirming should really not just be taught in a therapeutic context but it should be taught in all types of contexts you know with children that aren't neurodivergent with children you know like with even families that don't have neurodivergent children you know I think it's just that much more important to you know raise your kids to be kind human beings no matter what the case is. Absolutely 100% agree with that. Um I wish yeah I wish that was a case uh back. Yeah I got picked on a lot um and then when I finally tried to defend myself I would get in more trouble like oh you're the problem. I remember I had this bully one time and I still remember his name to this day his name was Kirk I don't know why but I remember he would just pick on me poke at me um and I remember one day I just like I had enough of it and I was like I pushed him back and I remember I got in trouble he cried I got detention and they're like your kid and they told my parents your kids the problem he's the problem he gets attention and I was like and my mom was I think she was at the school sometimes she would volunteer as a yard duty and she was like no I watched him like pick on him for so long and finally he stands he decides to stand back stand for himself and now he's getting punished and so it just wasn't like it was only the kids it was sometimes the the adults in charge it was sometimes you know the principal or the the teachers and um because you know he's different you know he's autistic and like no like they probably rationalized it like he deserves to get bullied because like he's different he's weird he's strange yeah and you know how how um maddening it is to even like hear that somebody you know is standing up for themselves after being pushed and prodded and poked at and and you're the one getting in trouble you're the problem child in air poke I would come home with like black eyes or like a bloody lip or swollen lip because like I would get pretty hungry and I think I didn't want to make waves at the time so I wouldn't tell anyone I would just be like no it's better not to rock the boat it's like oh I fell you know or I would explain it away like oh no I just playing too hard and I fell down and I'm telling my parents that and I don't know I think I just didn't want to make it worse for myself at the time so I wouldn't say anything oh my god yeah that's and again this is this is for the BCBAs there's really for everybody listening to this um please teach your people teach people to be kind you know um like I said neurodivergent people are at high risk of being bullied um assaulted and unsafe and vulnerable situations it's really important that you teach those types of concepts um not to neurodivergent people to be kind too but it has to go both ways you can't just expect your learners to be nice and kind because of situations like this you know um I had a bully myself she didn't you know get physical to the point of causing me black eyes but man I remember myself as seen being the absolute lowest of low because of this person my except my bully's name was Katie and so um and I remember just being made fun of for every reason under the sun the way that I talked the way that I walked my clothing for the day my outfit my body you know it was um my movements that I made and it's just like again you know we have to teach the concept of kindness we can't just you know um just look at somebody and then make fun of them just because they're different in air quotes from who you are you know uh it's an amazing I just don't remember the first time I've ever bullied even though it was like decades ago they still even have connect on you yeah oh yeah it goes into trauma and trauma does the technique here you know so speaking speaking of trauma so let's talk a little bit now from like the BCBA ABA therapy friends so how how do you process these cognitive clients or professionals who share trauma to pass um whether that be past ABA experiences or just past experiences at all yeah I think so with trauma I've done a lot I've tried to do a lot of education and research on this and um I think in some ways a lot of people have experienced trauma and even if you haven't directly you can kind of understand it if you like just are open to it trauma to me is when you're faced with a really almost like either a life-threatening situation or a situation when you've experienced a large amount of pain and that can be physical but it can also be emotional like when you've experienced so much pain that it changes the way you see things it changes the way you you are in a way it's really dramatic it's um it you know there's the book yeah but the body keeps the score that's the go-to I think of where trauma not only lives in your brain but it also lives in your entire body and um and in your behavior too um trauma responses can look like avoidance um that's a big that's probably one of the biggest features of trauma is avoiding things that even resemble what the traumatic event was So if you find yourself avoiding places or people or things, you probably had some trauma in your life. And the way I think about trauma, I think about, my wife had a traumatic event when she was in college. And I want to provide a trigger warning here. I don't know if that's okay. Is it okay for me to talk about essay? Yes, absolutely. My wife had told me when we were married that she was sexually assaulted at some point. And so she avoided places where she thought she might even encounter this person. This person was someone who was a, they were a, they were a personal trainer. They were really into fitness and they were personal trainer at many gyms. And so she would avoid gyms for a long time. She would avoid going to certain places. She would not join a gym because she thought she would see this person. And for me with trauma because I think with, and I think there's a lot of overlap with trauma and autism because with autism, you experience a lot of bullying sometimes, sometimes, sometimes. Not for everyone, maybe, but I know for me, I experienced a lot of bullying, a lot of physical altercations or aggression on me because I was different. And I avoided a lot of things. So I avoided going out to social places. I avoided bars. I avoided places where there was alcohol because people would get into arguments or fights. And I would, I was still here from conflict. Growing up, my parents, my parents got divorced, but they would engage in a lot of physical conflict with each other. And it was scary, broken items, yelling, showering. It was sometimes good physical. And so, yeah, I avoided a lot of where I thought that would come from. And I was always aware of it, but sometimes trauma is so ingrained in us that we even don't even, we're not even aware of what we're avoiding sometimes. It's all in what's out. So trauma, it's, it's a good bet that a lot of autistic people struggle with trauma. And I think that's important as a BCBA to recognize that and our clients. That we serve that there's a good possibility they might have experienced trauma at some point. And to be at least a little bit trauma informed is going to be really helpful. Like having, you know, doing CEUs and trauma, at least being aware of it. And trying to create a safe space for. Are the people that we serve, the clients that we serve, whether you're working with children, a teenagers or adults, like if you're working with someone. Make, I mean, even just be aware of it. Like trauma is probably affected this person at some point in their lives. And it's important for us to recognize that, to do our own education, and to create a safe space where this person can be themselves and not have to feel like they have the mask all the time. And it's, it's an, it's an unfortunate reality. I mean, I mask all the time. And it's a survival mechanism. I feel like I have to because if I didn't mask as a BCVA, who's also autistic, I would probably lose my job. I would probably lose all credibility. And so I'm constantly asking all the time every day, every minute of the day, day in and day out. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a mechanism I use is to put not not always defense. Just to protect my job to protect my livelihood. Yeah. I mean, it makes perfect sense. You know, and it's, it's so interesting because, you know, when we go into assessments with clients, one of the, one of the questions that I asked families, and I'm sure you do this to us, someone who is the trauma informed BCBA is, you know, have you ever, has your child ever experienced any forms of trauma? And what I try to preface trauma with is trauma is not just neglect abuse. It's not just those two terms. I think people get confused in terms of what trauma is because trauma is a lot more than just, you know, physical or physical abuse or emotional abuse or neglect in general. It can be a significant change in life. It can be, you know, something scary happening. Growing up, you know, I witnessed domestic violence between my parents and, you know, for me, that's what I'm trying to do. And what I'm trying to do is to get back to life and to get back to life. And I'm trying to get back to life. - Absolutely. - Yeah. - Absolutely. So, you know, kind of going into trauma too, so. one of the big sparked big debates that is in our field, especially by neurodivergent people, is the ABA is abuse statement. And I'm really curious, as an autistic BCBA, to get your take on that, because this is definitely a hot topic in our field. And I've seen a lot, I've seen a lot more. Oh yeah. ABA is traumatic and ABA is conversion therapy. It's like it's all of these things. I'm just curious to know from your standpoint. Sure, yeah. So I guess I'll start early on and kind of go from there. So I'll go from a chronological perspective, like just starting early and going later. Okay. So I first started seeing these. So I guess my first experience with this perspective of ABA is abuse. And ABA is conversion therapy. I kind of started, I think, the year was 2014 or 2013. I remember being in ABA. I was a BT at the time. I was pursuing my BCBA. I was in, just started grad school in 2014, at Florida Institute of Technology. And I remember having gone through that coursework and being in the field, the first reaction that I had was defensiveness. I wanted to say, no, ABA is not abuse. What are you talking about? Okay, or maybe it wasn't the past, right? But it isn't now. Yeah. I wanted to end, I was defensive because, I think I was in the coursework. I was studying it. I was learning I was doing it. And it felt like a personal attack to me at first. And I had a, I think I had a really reflect on this and check on it because my first instinct was to defend it. Right? My first instinct was say, no, you know what? It sounds like you have a misconception of what ABA actually is. And let me define it for you. I had to check that. And so I know that's cringing. I know that's, that's difficult. I know that's hard to accept. And I'm going to admit that. I'm, I didn't have the best response to it initially. But as I've learned, as I went through my master's program, I think I learned that those experiences, to validate those experiences. And looking back on it now from a perspective of like where ABA is now compared to where it was before. It's very different. ABA before, yeah. I'm going to be the first to admit, like looking at ABA in the past. As a BT, I was told to use extinction. I was told to ignore behaviors no matter what. And now I would see the kid in severe distress. And I was told, ignore it. You know, that's attention to my team behavior. You got to ignore it. I was told by a BCBA. You need to follow through on instruction. So if you give an SD, follow through no matter what. So if it was a kid and you give an instruction sit in the chair, that kid had a sit in the chair. And I was told, prompt them to follow through, physically prompt them to do it. I was like, okay. And in my mind, or I guess it, and more or not, in my body, I felt really uncomfortable. I was like, really? Really? But I'm like, okay, you're the expert. You're the certified, you're board certified. And, you know, me being young and I even, frankly stupid, did it. And I felt horrible. And sometimes I wouldn't do it. Sometimes I push back, some of the little bit, I don't feel comfortable doing this. I'm not gonna do it. And I was told, maybe say, no, you have to do it. And I was like, I had a lot of cognitive dissonance. I had a lot of just internalized, I don't like this. This doesn't feel comfortable. This does not feel good. It was really difficult. And I was labeled as like, oh, you're being difficult. You're not falling. You're insubordinate, you're not falling directions. That was a hard time. I think that I remember that happening a year into me being a beauty for the first time. In my first job. And the place I worked at was very new. It was very small. Luckily, I left that place after a year. I moved on into a more ethical practice. But it was really challenging. Because I knew in my heart, like I felt icky, I felt gross. I felt like, I don't wanna do this. But I was told by a professional who had masters. And, you know, it's funny now that I look bang on. They weren't even used to be. They were actually pursuing their BCV. They had a master's degree. But I was told, this person is the expert. You need to listen to them. And I'm like, whom I had a question that. So I felt really icky and horrible. And I would push back and I would be shut down and I'd be like, okay, I'm gonna do my best. But I'm like, let me figure that I would at least pair it with reinforcement. Like, I remember blowing bubbles for this kid. I remember this kid didn't know I said. I'm like, okay, how about we sit down and I blow bubbles. And you can have whatever you want. And I'm like, here's a tablet, here's bubbles. And it felt icky, it's just full. Talking about now feels like it's really challenging. And I realized looking back on it now, I was like, I did not know anything. But I'm like, I'm just a dumb college kid. Looking back on this now and realizing I trusted people and I should have listened to my gut. So I felt really horrible. But yeah, my first instinct, so I first started encountering the argument that ABA was abuse online on Facebook. I remember I had a Facebook, I had a Facebook and I was looking online. I joined a lot of groups and I saw this post. It was like, okay, you know what? ABA is abusive. And it was from autistic adults. And kind of comparing it to what I was doing, I had a lot of struggle separating it because I was like on the one hand. Yeah, it feels like abuse on the other hand. Hey, I'm in school, I'm studying it. It's a science, there's research behind it. There's evidence behind it. It makes sense, it works. So where do I go from here? And so my first instinct was defended. And I did, I posted a few, I don't know if there's a lot there, but I did defend it. I was like, you know what? It sounds like you have a misconception of ABA. Let me clue you in on what ABA actually is. As I grew throughout the years, after I became BCBA after I went through my graduate coursework and I've been in the field for a while. I realized, especially doing master's degree in counseling psychology, I realized, you know what? These people, how is it? No, sorry, that sounds bad. These, reading these posts and looking at them, they are based in reality, at least from their reality. And I was taught in graduate school to empathize with people. So my graduate program, just to give some context here, I did my master's in counseling psychology. I am a BCBA, but I'm also trained as a licensed marriage and family therapist. And those two can sometimes kind of conflict with each other. But I was taught to validate and put yourself in those shoes. And I tried to do that. And I saw, having done that, I was saw, yeah, ABA doesn't have the best history. There are, there is abuse in some cases, at least when I was getting, when I was doing, when I was a behavior technician, a lot of BCBAs would push escape extinction. A lot of BCBAs would push punishment. A lot, and those are in our science. And a lot of BCBAs would push, you follow through, right? You give it an SD, you have to follow through with it every time no matter what. And there was very little consideration towards our clients' emotions, our clients' feelings. Trauma wasn't even thought of. It was like, nope, we're doing the behavior, we look at behavior change, X equals, X leads to Z. This variable leads to this variable. And we didn't really consider anything else. And that was a case. And even looking back at my graduate school training, so I did my coursework at Florida Tech. And it was a great program to me, right? It was a wonderful program. I learned a lot about ABA. But there were some things in there that I think now, looking back on it, probably, I think we've moved past it. I think we've learned from it, and I think we could do better. And I think things like collaborating with other professionals, collaborating with occupational therapists, collaborating with speech-language pathologists. I think when I was in Florida Institute of Technology, I don't know if anyone else has this experience, but I know I got it. At least the messaging I got was like, oh, occupational therapists. And their interventions are not scientifically sound. There's no evidence to support those. And I'm thinking now, but they have a perspective-- so they have a perspective that can be very valuable. And it's important to be open-minded, and at least look at different perspectives. So I think I've had a growing a lot of ways as a BCB and be open to different perspectives, being the best. open to different things that we've learned. It's not just black and white, it's not just behavior, but it's also looking at the effects that our interventions can have on people. Yeah. Being human and seeing them as human. Absolutely. At the end of the day, our clients are human beings first. You know, like, yes, you know, we might have clients that identify as being autistic first or, you know, the identity first language versus person first language, but they are human at the end of the day. And, you know, your experience sounds so much like my, like, I don't know secretly, we worked at the same company. We just didn't know it. To be honest with you, like, this is, I'm literally exactly my experience. Escape extinction was shoved down our throats and through our bodies, basically. And God forbid if a kid said no to something, you reinforce the maladaptive, I'm going to put that in air, close maladaptive behavior. And it's like, you guys are, you guys are doing way too much, you know, like, why aren't we honoring a set? Why aren't we doing better? You know, and so I completely resonate with that too because, you know, like looking at, looking at some of the post back then, like, some of the posts that were made about ABA back then, I was a little bit more on like the silent side, but I was an observer. And of course, you know, as someone who is a behavior analyst, it's hard not to defend your science. It's hard not to defend, you know, evidence-based practices and, you know, best practices, what we're shooting for. And that's exactly what we're trying to do. Yet at the same time, we're looking at, you know, we're looking at like human experience and, you know, like, our clients have been through so much already, you know, the fact that like someone would make them do something like, if you're in this field to try to do a power struggle, you know, that's what it should not be, you know. And so I even remember, like being told, there was one time where one of my kids, he wanted to go take a nap and granted, it's herned into me leaving the session early. And, you know, the kid ended up escaping from the session for the rest of the day. And my supervisor got really defensive with me and said, you reinforced this maladaptive behavior. I don't think she said the word maladaptive, but she told me I reinforced this escape behavior. And it's like, you know what? Let him be. If he wants to take a break, let him take a break. It's not the end of the world. If he misses 30 minutes of the end of a session, or, you know, if he wants to take a break for the rest of the day, because God forbid he's already been to school and had to sit at a desk and he's had to learn a bunch of stuff at school. And, you know, and her defense was, well, in school, you can't do that. And that's nice, but we are not school. We are a service. And the thing is our service model. And really any therapeutic service model was supposed to be a therapeutic service model. In any moment that we are violating their values, or they no longer consent to our services, we get kicked out. And the kid withdrew a sentence. And so to me, I'm like, bye, I'm getting out of here, you know, you have a good rest of your day. I'll see you tomorrow. And granted, he didn't do it every single session. He did it a few times. And it's like, you know, what? What a bee. He's a little kid. He at the time he was four. You know, God forbid a kid said no to wanting to do a bunch of freaking flashcards. It's wild. Right? He's four. Oh my gosh. Can anyone be here to listen to this podcast? Remember when you were four? Oh my god. Did you want to do flashcards? Absolutely not. Oh my god. I cannot. I cannot. So, you know, for me, it's just like, you've got to be kidding me. Like you've got to actually be kidding me. It just drives my, drives my brain and saying. It really grinds my gears. I'm going to say that. Because like, I remember, you know, I barely remember what I was for. I wasn't preschool. I didn't want to be there. I didn't want to draw. I don't want to write. Oh my gosh. I want to be a kid. Yeah. I'm gonna play. Yeah. Like, God forbid we didn't get up and play. Like, you know, and it's like, I tell my therapist, you know, because some of them get really worried about like, oh, they're not listening to me. Oh, they're not like following my instructions. And it's like, sounds like you need to actually like get to know them better. You know, this isn't just like, yeah, both them get to know them. Get to know what they like. You know, they're people. This isn't a relationship. Yeah, that reminds me. So, yeah. So, there's this concept in psychology. So, I know I mentioned my life's marriage and family therapist. And there's this concept called the therapy alliance, which wasn't taught me taught to me in ABA. It might be a coursework at all. But it was taught to me in my marriage and family therapy coursework. And it's this idea that we build this relationship with our clients that we see them as human beings first. And that involves psychological safety and involves trust, involves rapport, it involves really can this person trust me as a human being with what I'm about to share with them in my experiences. And so, you know, and I think it's a concept that is somewhat starting to be, I've seen it introduce in ABA, a little bit gradually, but it's the close thing I think of it too is building rapport or pairing. So, it's more than that, I would say, but pairing ourselves with reinforcement is critical. It is the most important thing, and this is my heartache. Maybe this is the most important thing you can do with a patient is build that relationship with them. Our interventions are, you know, your de-ros, your de-res, your positive reinforcement, I think that's important, but doesn't compare to the relationship. That trust, that safety, can this child trust you to be in their best interests, to act in their best interests? That is so critical. And I will, I will die on that, on that, what's the call? That phrase, "diamond hill." "Diamond hill." "Diamond hill." I will die on that hill, to the end of my days. Like, if you do not have a relationship with that kid, if you do not have a rapport with them, I think else you do is, it means nothing. It means nothing. And I really try to emphasize that with all my my beauties and my team. And so there's this concept called therapeutic alliance in clinical psychology. And this is kind of coming from my background as a marriage and family therapist. And there have been multiple studies that show that this concept, that trust, that safety, that relationship that you build with your client has a much larger impact than any intervention you were doing. Whether it be positive reinforcement, dearest dearest dearest, whether it's any intervention, I'm trying to think of like, extinction, differential reinforcement, positive reinforcement, token economies, you name it. Anything in the maybe we have does not compare to the power of that therapeutic alliance, that relationship that you have with that client. And I cannot emphasize that enough. If you do not have that, you have nothing. You have absolutely nothing. Yeah. And I have BCB is pushed back on that like, oh no, we have great number. We have science. We have positive reinforcement. We have punishment. We have differential reinforcement. We have shaping, chaining, you name it. That doesn't mean anything if you don't have a relationship with your client. That means nothing. Period. You need to have that rapport. You need to have that trust with your client. You need to have that trust with the family. If you do not have that, you are not doing your job as a BCB. Period. And you know, when you stop building rapport, never, never, it's ongoing. You are continually doing that. You do not stop pairing. You do not stop building that positive rapport, that relationship. Oh, and fun fact for us for our listeners. There is no such thing as too much pairing. There is no such thing as I 100% agree. Yeah. That's a bit. That's a bit. You are a continuous pairing. You should be pairing every time every day. Yeah. You are not, you are not doing your client. You're the, the, the, you are not doing them the service that they deserve. You are not doing your best. Exactly. Exactly. I want to go ahead and drop the first code word of the episode and that word is basically how I'm feeling about this episode so far. They're aputic. That is T-H-E-R-A-P-E-U-T-I-C. That is the word therapeutic. I mean, and it's so true, you know, you know, and one of the things I wanted to touch on too is your experience as a licensed and licensed marriage and family therapy. Your licensed marriage and therapist, family therapist, correct? Correct. Okay. I'm licensed in California, in Arizona. Oh, nice. Nice. So how do you combine your experience in ABA with that LMFT and sort of like bomb those experiences together and how are they different? Yeah. So that's a really good question because it's really interesting because in some ways it's like two different hats that you wear. But where I see overlap in those two fields is in working with the families in caregiver guidance. So we all have, if you're doing ABA and you're doing it under the funding sources, is an insurance provider, there is a requirement to do parent or caregiver guidance. I would say parent guidance, caregiver guidance. And you have to work with the families, right? We know as BCBA is like, oh, you could do the best work with the client in the clinic or in the home. But if you're not doing it with the parents, that's not general. That's not general, general general general generalizing the skills, right? That's not generalizing. That's not going to mean anything because if a pencil aren't on board and generalizing it, then what's the point? They're not going to carry it over. Okay. So my, so yeah, I obtained my license and the management family therapist when I saw BCBA is working with parents and I realized that is an important critical factor in outcomes for our clients because of, you know, our job as BCBA is, yeah, we help support the client, but we're going to work ourselves out of the job. They're not going to be in here for like 10 years or 20 years. We're not going to work with them for that long. We do do work with the family and the parents to really be able to generalize these skills and support their client, support their kids in the way that we kind of utilize our science to support their kids. So I realized it's really important that we need to build these connections with the families and specifically parents and caregivers. And I think that's where my, that's why I wanted to become a management family therapist. That is absolutely why I wanted to do that. I wanted to be able to build those relationships with the families. And it's been, it's been a really interesting journey because I think that's where like the important work happens. So how does it overlap? I think building that therapeutic alliance with the families with the parents really helps them to get buy-in, right, to buy-in to our services, but also to help oftentimes our families are also, at least for me, struggling. They are struggling in so many different areas. Like they are struggling and caring for their own kids. They have been struggling in, there's just so much going on that they, they deal with. And it's, it's something that I've noticed because, so something I didn't mention, but I'm also a parent of some, I have a daughter with autism. And having a daughter with autism, it can be scary for a lot of families. I know it was nervous for me because I, I love my daughter and I didn't want her to struggle the way I did. I didn't want her to have the same difficulties that I did. So I really realized really on my career that it was really important to work with the family and the parents and make sure that they are on board with what we're doing. And so I think I pursued my manager family therapy license to be able to connect with parents and make sure that when we're doing the work with them, that they are willing and able to also carry on the interventions that we're doing. It's, we're not just treating a child, we're also treating in many ways the family. We're treating the whole, all of the important people that we, that are in this child's life, we are also working with whether that be the parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, caregivers, foster parents, foster, you know, uh, uh, a doctor parents, aunts, uncles, you name it. So yeah, I think that was something that I really wanted to work on. And so I know I'm going on and on about this, but I think it really helped to be able to, to learn how to work with adults as well and to be able to treat the, the, the system, not just the client, but also the family as a whole. Yeah, yeah, you know, um, there's a quote out there, it takes a village to raise a child, right? This isn't just the child or the, the client or the human, you know, that we're working with. It's every person that is involved with the human's life, you know, so like you were saying parents, like you were saying, you know, um, aunts, uncles, grandparents, um, teeth, the, the importance of collaboration teachers, um, psychologists, uh, occupational therapists, speech therapists, you know, anybody that the child comes or the human comes in contact with, it's that much more important to make sure that we're all in alignment. That's, you know, therapeutic alliance, you know, goes, it has to spread not just with the client, but with everybody that's involved in their life. Yeah, absolutely. Because we're only in their life for a short period of time, you know, um, what, the average ABA period of treatment may be last from one year to maybe four years. And so we're not in our lives the whole time. And I want to make sure that my parents are aware of the things that we are doing. And I'm being transparent with them and that they feel equipped to be able to utilize some of the interventions that our science has to offer. Absolutely. And especially like, you know, you have an emulsion of experience, you know, you are autistic yourself. You're a parent, you're a parent, you're a parent of an autistic child. Um, you work as an LMFT and the BCBA. So you have all of these different perspectives that come in, but you're also one perspective in a sea of many people. And it's like, you know, you, it's, it's where like I've been trying to teach people, teach some of my students that are going through their coursework. Um, and also just like teach people in general, it's really important to remember to remain humble. Yes, you have a lot of experiences, but at the same time, don't forget, you know, this is their life. We're in the field to change our clients' lives and be able to, um, change their lives for the betterment, um, of their lives. And so we have to really take a step back from ourselves and remember, you know, um, yes, this is going to affect our lives, but we really want it to positively impact theirs at the end of the day. Yeah, absolutely. I 100% agree with that. I think that's really important to collaborate with other professionals, medical doctors, occupational therapists, speech, language pathologists, um, social workers, psychologists. Yeah, when you name it. And I think it is important to be humble and recognize that there are other perspectives. And I, I often tell parents, you know, you guys are the experts on your own children. You raise them. You are spending more time with them than I ever will. Yeah. And your opinion is important. And in fact, your viewpoint is so much more valuable than mine. And I'm here to help and support, but you guys are the primary caregivers. You guys, you guys bring so much to the sale. Yeah, I mean, parents are there when we're not. I still remember I was working on toilet and protocol for a client. And I had an idea. And the parents said, well, you're the expert. I'm like, I am the quote unquote expert. Exactly. You're the expert. I'm the quote unquote expert in quotations on behavior. My master's degree is in behavior analysis. You are a doctorate of your own child. That's like, you are the expert that I am. Absolutely. Yes. Parents know they're children best. I heard her person agree and has a parent so when I become a parent and my daughter has an autism diagnosis by the way I I work with BC her BCV and I work with her RBTs and I attend that care year means I'm open to them but I acknowledge like I think the fact that I spend I spent a long time with her and my wife spends a long time with her and especially My wife spends more time with her than I do so she is the expert in our daughter 100% because she spends more time with her every day. I spend the next amount of time with her and so I will often defer to my wife Like right now my daughter's three years old. She's working on potty training and my wife says you know She's not ready for this step yet sitting on the potty for extra amount of times and I'm like, you know what? You spend more time with her you know more than I do and Yeah, sounds well gonna to a fight argument, but I will always to see like you know what you do spend more time with her You know better her better than I do so Yeah, yeah, you're the expert. I'm here to help but you're the expert tell me tell me how to help you so Exactly, I think you respect parents more Respect their perspective and be more open to what they have to communicate and allow ourselves to To not always be the one driving decisions, but I'm parents to have an equal voice or even more so than we do I agree with that, you know, I think I think you know at the end of the day like I am so the way that I talk about you know ABA services, right because you know, I'm a BCBA, you know, I'm I'm the expert, you know and quotes again, you know Families are there 24/7 right so you know they're there when no one else is there Your child might be in school so you've got teachers who are there, you know for so many hours a week Let's say like 35 to 40 hours a week assuming that your child is in school Then you know, you have your RBTs or your technicians Better there for you know, let's say anywhere between 10 and 35 40 hours a week You know depending on the service model and whatnot You know, you have your other providers like your occupational therapist your physical therapist You know anybody else that is there for X amount of time I'm there in a child's life for maybe 10 to 20% of that And I think it's really important to capitalize on the fact that we're not there very often We get a very small scope I will I literally will tell some way like some of my students to some of my technicians I'm there for maybe a grain of sand In comparison to what you are seeing and to what the family is seeing You know, I'm a grain of sand The technician. I see them for like the sandbox and then the family will see them for the entire beach Beach worth, you know because again Again, you know, it's it like I only get a small portion and so I think We do need to take a step back from ourselves. Yes, we know our science. Yes, we can defend our science until our Until we hit our graves, but remember to this is their life that they are dealing with this is their own Child's life We are there for X amount of time. We are a guest in a child's life You know, we can get told to hit the road at any point We can get told to get lost and you know all that you know Any any moment and you know our parents are ultimately going to be there and actually truly Support their children. So it's really our job as behavior analyst as providers to really make sure that we are in alignment with our families values Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. 100% um We have to be in alignment with the family otherwise It's not gonna work. I've had too many clients where I've I've tried so hard to work with the families and the families just were not bought into our services And I mean any BCB that's we're with family that hasn't been involved. You know how hard it is right you know how It's you know you work your hardest you Do your best you have the interventions you have the bed and then Families just you know ultimately families have the ultimate control right like they decide whether or not your family even attend services Right and if they are not bought in if they don't agree with you Well, they're not coming to services They're withdrawing their kid or they're just not showing up and That's so important to recognize like we are not just serving a client but we're still in the whole family And that's that can be really difficult to kind of for at least for me was difficult initially to run my head around because I saw this innocent child and I wanted to help them and sometimes I saw the family as a barrier like If only the family would bring their kids more often right or only if the family would just do what I told them to do And that's easy to get stuck in um, but at the end of the day the family is gonna have the biggest impact on your child on the clients that you serve Or in maybe if they're not family, maybe it's like caregiver because I also work with adults who sometimes are living group homes and Maybe their family is involved somewhat but they don't come that often and it's really sad unfortunately, but I know I've worked with clients who who live in the group homes and who are supported by group homes And their parent their biological parent comes to visit me once a month or once every other month and that's It's um, it's sad, but it's like that's that's the reality and it's just um, but you have to try to align with them because that's who's the the person in their lives that's gonna be the most present Initially or throughout Exactly exactly Let me ask you this so how has you know you your background is being a parent Being an autistic parent being a parent of a person with autism And also you have your marriage and family therapy experience added to or change your approach as a BCBA I think my um having my life as a marriage and family therapy has Giving me a perspective to be a lot more open to working with families to being more open to their opinions to valuing their perspectives and Realizing the importance that they bring to the table As a BCBA sole I think I was easy to just miss Parents or see them as the problem or the barrier Like I would say like oh this parent doesn't bring their kid to the clinic or it's to the session or This parent's always late if you if you're working at home. Oh, it's parents never there. We had session at 330 and they're not here yet Let me call them and see oh where are you guys at or if they're in a clinic. Okay, you're Client was your kid was supposed to be here at night o'clock and they're you're not here yet like what do we do? um I think it's challenged me to challenge to challenge that those misconceptions so before I'd be very judgmental with parents And now as a parent and as a measure of my therapist I see how difficult it is I see what parents have to go through like my own daughter has autism and she's So she does a BCBA services at a clinic and sometimes she doesn't want to go and she will say no we call it school for her And so we say hey my daughter's name is Luna by the way So I say hey Luna we're gonna go to school today and she'll say no no school no school and she'll shake her head She'll resist and I say but it's important to go to school You get to learn you get to see your friends You see people you love and it would care about and she'll say no and she'll go into a full blown meltdown And that can take sometimes 20 to 30 minutes for us to resolve and I have to really comfort her and and um communicate to her that That We're sending her to this clinic because it's in her best interest And she might not see it that way and and It can take we sometimes we're late and the BCBA is our bc don't see that You know they see oh you guys are late. What did you guys do you guys need to work on it? You know and I'm like well we tried but She didn't want to go to school and they're like well You make her go to school I'm like just do your job. I'm like It's not that quite it's not quite that simple, you know and um I think it's encouraged me to be a lot more empathetic towards parents and have a lot just just have more empathy and compassion for them and also the families um So I have a lot more compassion and empathy for families and for parents It's not easy. I know it's not easy and I acknowledge that. I'm like, you know what I tell parents I'm open with them. I tell them in the first pair meeting like I have a daughter with autism. I'm autistic myself. I know it can be very difficult for you. I know they're not gonna always listen to you. I know they're gonna have these behaviors and I want to acknowledge that and acknowledge how difficult it is to deal with them. I think that's really helpful. Having that empathy, having that unconditional positive regard can be really helpful for working with parents. And I think that's what's helped me as a marriage of my therapist is giving me that training to have these skills. And I think at the time they call them micro skills, but I think they're really important to have these skills to share with parents like, "Hey, I see you. I hear you. I know this is challenging. And now you're doing the best you can because you love your child. And I see you. And you're probably stressed out, you're frustrated, you're challenged in ways that you never expected to be. But I see you doing the hard work. I know you love your child. And I'm here to help you and support you in any way that I can. So I'm not gonna judge you for being late. I'm not gonna judge you if you don't run this program. This parent goal that we've been working on for so long. You know, I see you. And I know how challenging it is. Yeah. You know, it really makes perfect sense because the thing is like we as BCBAs are so quick. And honestly, like, it doesn't just happen with BCBAs. It happens, unfortunately, a lot with like admin people too, because you know, in effects, there's schedules and effects, you know, like how things are supposed to operate. Well, you know, we really need to be really as affirming as possible and really like understand from the parental experience. Not just, you know, not just like, hey, you're you're late, you know, and I mean, I just had this situation happened to me a couple days ago where I was in constant communication with the family and the technicians decided that they wanted to leave and, you know, understandably so. But then our office manager also also was trying to say that I was the one who did the cancellations. Like, no, I didn't do that. You know, like, I'm going to communicate with you and I get blamed for that. And it's like, if anything, I'm trying to communicate and let you know, like, hey, you know, I get it. Like it's tough. And they were dealing with a really crappy situation that day. And rightfully so they got, they were very upset. I had a phone call with them yesterday. And, you know, I just I felt so bad hearing that. But at the same time, it's like, it's it's again, we have to practice compassion not just as, you know, BCBAs, but that compassion needs to spill over to our technicians and to our operations. He just as much. If not absolutely. 100% yeah. I think it's hard for a lot of our BTs and operational staff to really wrap their head around is like, we need to have that compassion. That's the foundation of working with our families, working with our children. You know, that therapeutic alliance is so important. Having that trust, having that safety, having that understanding, that shared mutual understanding, you know, having that rapport with families is so important. And I've seen it because when we have that rapport, our clients do so great, right? Our families are on board. They're willing to work with our kids and do our interventions. Like, you know, I'll send a textbook home with our parents. I'm like, you know, and they'll they'll implement it. And I'm like, and they'll, and they'll say because like, you know what, I trust you. You have my best child's best interests at heart. I'm going to do this. Yeah. But if you don't have that trust, if you're chastising them, if you're blaming them, it's like, well, you know, like, you're telling me I'm a bad parent. Whoa. I don't want to work with you anymore. I don't want to let it, it's, immediately shuts you off. Right? If you're told, like, you're not doing your part. Yeah. It's pants get all blame in our industry and our in our field. You know, it's really tempting to like say, hey, pants aren't in the part. And maybe sometimes they aren't, but we need to work, that's on us to work with them and build that relationship, build that trust and really make the effort to reach out to them and meet them where they're at. Exactly. Without that trust, you don't have anything. Yeah. Absolutely. 100%. Yes. So I'm going to go ahead and show that by the way. There are plenty of articles that show that if you don't have that, yeah, your interventions, I think I have to look at that. I'm going to find the research articles that show support that. But I've had some BCVs challenge me on that. Like, oh, where did you get that? What's your source? I'm like, well, here it is. There are sources. And I would be happy to share those. Oh, yes. Please do because we have permission to need to have that. And not only that, but that really should be shared across the borders, you know, that rapport of that relationship is so much more important than any interventions we're doing as BCVs. Exactly. Exactly. Uh, I'm going to go ahead and drop the second code word and it is the word alliance that is a L L I A N C E. That is the word alliance. That's definitely something we have been talking a lot about. So just to wrap up, you know, I feel like this question is just really like really important to answer for our audience. From your perspective, what does it mean to truly be neurodivergent affirming? Yeah, that's a great question. Thanks for asking. To be neurodivergent affirming, I think it means at a very basic level, to be willing to be open and accepting of people that I think differently than you and validate those as as a valid honest perspectives, you know, like, so when I think of neurodivergent, right, I think of people who think differently, right? And I think neurodivergent gets confused a lot with neurodiversity, which neurodivercity means having a mix of neurodivergent, meaning autism, ADHD, OCD, uh, terats. So neurodivergent can be encompassing a lot of different behaviors and a lot of different symptoms. But to be neurodivergent affirming really means accepting and honoring these different, these different ways of thinking, these different ways of processing the ways our brains work, the way our brain works. You know, people that are neurodivergent have different strengths, different struggles, than neurotypical. I know for me, like, I struggle personally with memory, I struggle with sometimes executive functioning. And so those are my weaknesses, but I have strengths in other ways. I have strengths in basically being able to see things from different perspectives and empathize with other people. I can also, I'm very visual. So I think neurodivergent for me means being willing to really accept and acknowledge how other people process thoughts and also see the world. And so, you know, we define neurodivergent as like, so you have neurotypical and neurodivergent. And they both have their values, they both have their strengths and weaknesses. And I think neurodivergent means that we are going to have different ways of seeing the world, different ways of thinking, different ways of processing. So autism is part of that neurodivergent spectrum or framework, right? Others are ADHD. And so I think just being open to it, being willing to accept it, willing to see it as valid and accepting it is going to be, is part of neurodivergent. So it's to specify this. What that can look like is if a neurodivergent, so you have a client, right? And they prefer to communicate through, you know, pecs or they can be, prefer to communicate through ASL, acknowledging that accepting it is neurodivergent affirming. Being willing to accept their stims, you know, so a lot of people with autism have stims like can flapping or staring, moving, rotating objects. I mean, it's not affecting anyone else, right? So why not accept those things? Why not be okay with that? I think and be willing to join them and not change those things. As long as it's not harming anyone, as long as not impacting them in such a severe way, what's the harm in that? I don't really target stems as a behavior for reduction, unless it's causing physical or some kind of harm to the environment. If it's aggression, OK, yeah, that makes sense. Let's decrease that. If it's property discussion, OK, yes, let's decrease that. But if it's-- or causing injury to themselves, like self injury behavior, yes, let's decrease that, because that's going to cause a potential harm to themselves. But if it's just hand-flapping, if it's just staring at fans, what's the harm? That's their way of getting sensory input. And the funny thing about stems is that we all do it. Right? You know. We all do it. Yes. Everyone does it. I cook my pen a lot of times. I tap my foot. I'm constantly shifting back and forth. Like, I'm moving. What's wrong with that? That's not hurting anyone. Yes, exactly. I feel the same way. And it's so wild to me, because there was even times where I as a BCBA was OK with targeting stems. And it was because it was a priority that was transferred from a different BCBA. And I'm like, oh, shoot. What am I doing? Like, why am I doing this? I look back now, and I realize I should have just let her be happy. And now I know better. It's like you're the product of the people that you work with sometimes. When you know better, you do better. Exactly. Exactly. And so for me, whenever I think about stems, it's like, you know, we-- first of all, every single one of us stems. Would you like it if, let's say, you have a stem that you engage in? Let's say you tap your hand on the table. Would you like it if I said, OK, I want you to sit on your hands for the next hour? And you know, just like, no, you would hate-- No. It's stemming as a way of self-regulation. And why would you take that away? That's like taking away autonomy. It is. It really is. It's like-- it's like telling someone almost not to breathe. It's like, OK, don't move. Sit down calmly. Quiet hands. Oh my gosh. I cannot stand that. I actually had a BCV Supervisor. I was in a meeting once. I remember I was just hired as a BT, and I clicked my pen a lot. I would have-- because I was anxious. I took my pen constantly. And I remember my BCBA-- the BCBA-- she was a Kunkel Director, and she was hiring. And she was really like-- she would say to me, she actually said this to me, like, you know, your pen clicking, it's really annoying. You need to stop that. That's not OK. And luckily, I was like, OK, and I said that. But then I was like, you know what? I'll take away notice. I'm done. I quit. I quit that day. I was like, this is not for me. Thanks, but no thanks. I love that. Yeah. Because I'm like-- I'm clicking my pen, yes. I'm anxious. And at the same time, it's like, we have kids that do stereotherapy. And I'm like, if you think it's a problem that I'm doing it, and you think I'm making the kids worse, then maybe I should leave. Because like-- Yeah. Then, you know, that's not what I want to be a part of. That's absolutely not what I'm part of. Exactly. And also, there are advice to the BCBA who said that. Why are you working with people? It's the fact how you're going to treat them. You know? I want a BCBA who would get on me for repeating myself. And it's like, yeah. I'm going to repeat myself because I want to make sure that I'm recalling what you're saying. Exactly. I have my stuff together. I do that all the time. I repeat myself. And I've had that criticism too, like, stop repeating yourself. Actually, I had a nickname. They would call me the repeater, because I was repeating myself. I'm like, I'm doing it to help me remember what you're saying to me. And I remember, it was like kind of like a joke. Oh, Matt hours, repeat themselves. Yeah. It's so ridiculous. It's so ridiculous. All we're trying to do is speak all. We're trying to-- and also too, like, I don't know about you. But for me, it's a reassurance strategy. It is. Yeah. Same for me. Yeah. It helps me to remember things and also reassure me that I heard what was said. And I won't forget it. And that I'm doing the right thing. That's definitely something too. Yeah. I've gotten that criticism. And it's like, I mean, I wasn't as brave as you to quit that day because honestly, if I had the bravery to do so, I probably would have. But that being said to that BCBA, hope you're doing well. But I also hope you're not working with neurodivergent BCBAs or technicians because clearly you don't know-- you don't have a tolerance for behaviors like this. So anyways-- Anyway. So that being-- let's talk about moving towards affirming and trauma-informed practices. So absolutely. So close on this. What advice would you give to other clinicians who want to move towards a more affirming trauma-informed practice? So I would say try to be open-minded. So there was a term I learned in graduate school called Beginner's Mind. Basically, I would say try to imagine herself as just coming in fresh eyes, fresh start, and no preconceptions, and try to be open to things that are coming to you, the information you're getting in a non-judgmental way. And so I got this advice when I was taking high-fossed classes in graduate school. And they called it Beginner's Mind. And it's something that I think a lot of BCBAs sometimes don't have. But just take a sit back and realize, just try to put yourself in the situation of like, I'm here to learn. I'm new. I'm a baby. I'm going to grow and learn with you guys. I'm not the expert. And you'd be amazed how much you can actually learn and be open to when you actually take that perspective. I think too often, as BCBAs, we go in thinking, OK, when you did grad school, we did our master's program. We did the 3-thousand hours now. And we know it all. And I'm like, do you know? Because I mean, 2,000 hours isn't a lot. So as an American family therapist, I do 3,000 hours in some states. And some states is even 3,500 hours. And even though you know all these strategies, even though you know all the skills, like you know the concepts, yes, you read a Cooper back to back. And maybe you know every page. You remember I just even put every page. It doesn't prepare you for real life. It doesn't really prepare you for these individual children that you're going to get to meet and get to work with and get to know in the families. There's no chapter in Cooper that says, hey, you have this family that has this exact profile, right? That they were this age and they have this many children and this specific age and this specific children that has gone through this exact experiences. There's no chapter in Cooper that says that. And I think just being willing to be open and accepting of what's coming to you. Having that beginner's mind of like taking that perspective of like, you know what? I don't know this family. I don't know this client. I'm going to be open to what they have to give me. I think as a gift, it can be really helpful. Because we often take our preconceived notions and lay them on this family and then let that direct us. So I think having that open mind of being willing to learn and accept that, we don't know it all. We don't. Can be a really great gift. I love that. I love that so much. And I just I want to thank you so much. This has probably been my favorite episode to record today. You know, just because like, you know, not only talking to neurodivergent BCBAs, I feel like that's, you know, that that plays into like a very big part of like my heart. I just think that this conversation is so needed for our future BCBAs, our future providers, our current providers and even people who have been in the field before, you know, they need to listen to neurodivergent voices, neurodivergent practitioners and, you know, people who understand what it's like, you know, for multiple perspectives. So I just want to say thank you for coming on to the podcast tonight. Of course. Yeah. Thank you for inviting me and being allowing me the gift of being able to be here and share my perspective with an audience. It can feel really isolating as an autistic person. As sometimes at least my experience has been, I feel like I'm not often heard. I'm not often acknowledged. I feel like I'm visible sometimes. So it's really wonderful to be able to give that opportunity to be able to share this perspective. And thank you so much. And yeah, I want to say like as a BCBA, just keep growing. You know, you don't know it all. And I would say that for any BCBA, it's not targeted to new BCBAs. I've been a BCBA since 2018. So how long has that been? I don't know. I could do the math. But it's like at least five years, maybe six. And I still try to, seven years. Yeah. I still try to learn from a lot of people. Like I still have a lot to learn. And I say my biggest thing is just keep learning. We never stop learning. Absolutely. Yeah. Be open to new things. Be open to the science is always evolving. And I think it's easy to get attached to some theory or some technique or some strategy. And I know I did. I'm going to admit it. Yes, I got defensive. I grabbed hold of certain strategies and I was like, I got into arguments with people who are autistic. I remember one instance where I was on LinkedIn. And I saw a post by someone who I didn't know was autistic at the time, but they were. And they posted about AI. And they were saying, you know what? Therapists are basically horrible. Don't trust therapists. Don't trust BCBAs. Don't trust anyone. Trust AI. Put all your fifth in it because AI is positive. And it knows better. And it's not judgmental. And it's not human. So that makes it better. And I remember arguing like, no, you are full of stuff. I'm not going to swear, but you were full of it. I almost argued with them. And I remember back and forth. And then I realized when I went on their page, oh, they're actually autistic. And I'm like, I'm autistic too. And I'm like, you know what? Maybe you did have bad experiences. I have so sorry. Oh, my God. You probably had a pretty bad therapy. And you probably had really bad therapists and BCBAs. And oh, I feel so bad. I apologize. I didn't even know you were autistic. But even then, like I was like, you know, anyone could experience this. There are a lot about therapists out there. There are a lot about BCBAs out there. There are a lot. I don't want to be just mental, but I hear stories. I hear horror stories of what's going on out there. And I'm like, wow. I can't believe that's happening. I can't believe it. But I do believe it. And so I've learned to be a little bit more non-judgmental, a little bit more open minded, and a little bit more willing to validate people's experiences, no matter what they are. And I think that's the same for ABA. Like ABA has made mistakes in the field. And I think we're moving in a direction that's better. I really love acceptance coming in therapy. I love practical functional assessment and SBT or skill-based treatment. PVN SBT is a step in the right direction. Act is a step in the right direction. I really love motivational interviewing and how it really brings together. I think of all the things I've learned as an MFT, as an American County therapist. Motivational interviewing is so critical because I think it's one, it's the most compatible with ABA, one of them. And also, it's very much person centered, meaning like you're validating the person, and you're seeing the person who they are. If I could give advice to future BCVs, I would say go watch a video by Karl Rogers. So whoever doesn't, if you've done a bachelor's in psychology, maybe you know who Karl Rogers is. But he is a physician who kind of pioneered person centered therapy, which is really about seeing a person as how they are, who they are, invalidating that. And it's very much as what it says it is, person centered. It involves active listening, empathy, and unconditional positive regard, which is basically seeing as the person as they are a good person. And I think that's the stance we need to take as BCVs. The people we serve are good people, even if they've done-- maybe they engage in a maladaptive behavior. But we see the context, like it makes sense, because they're trying to get their needs met. And they don't have-- maybe they don't at the time in place know how to get their needs met. And so they're just doing what the best they can. Absolutely. Matt, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast tonight. Sure. And if our listeners want to reach out to you or find you, where can we? Absolutely. Yeah. So I have a LinkedIn that I'm pretty active in. If you just have in my name, I think you should be able to find me. My name-- yeah, Matt Tapia. You can find it there. Also, I have a website. You can connect with me. This is my private practice website. You can look me up on psychology today. You type in Matthew Tapia. You should both find me. I'll put a link in-- I'll send you a link. Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, that's-- yeah. I'm pretty, pretty easy to find. Hope, boy. Perfect. Perfect. Well, thank you so much, Matt. And thank you, everybody, for listening to tonight's episode of Stay Space the ABA podcast. I've been your host, Michelle Zeman, and I'll see you on the next one. Bye. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING]