The Health Crisis Of Office Jobs - Bob King - #1098

Most people think that back pain and low energy and bad posture are discipline problems You think that they're design problems. Why's that? Yeah, very interesting if well if you look at you look at the data on the population of people around the world certainly people in the United States I Was significant percent of adults in in America for example have chronic or on or repeated Back pain. It's a huge problem and as you get older it gets worse and worse I think I think it's it's clear if you look at what people do day to day You can see quite clearly that there's there's a cause and effect there. What's the evidence around sitting in back pain? There you can look at you can look at Sitting postures the most interesting thing about that is you look at postures when people sit I Study people sitting I think it's quite interesting. There's data on this too But if you were to look anywhere in in buildings here in Austin or or buildings in Tokyo or or Singapore anywhere You would see people sitting at their desk hunched over their desk. They're back probably not even touching the back of their chair Keying on their computer for hours on hours on end That's how people sit I even on one point. I needed a slide for my deck. So Of someone you know sitting in that posture. So I googled photo of person working on computer something like that And I got hundreds of pictures. They were all essentially identical people hunched over their decks You'll see spine Your spine is now curved forward Which is incredibly incredibly unhealthy and what what happens when you lean forward like that is you put more stress on your spine But interestingly also your vertebrae is curved forward. So each vertebrae comes together on one side Mm-hmm and opens up on the other so on one side is putting pressure on your desk and the other side is opening up opening up the disc Yeah, there's probably I can't imagine and in fact I'm pretty sure there's there's a side from lifting very heavy weights It's probably nothing worse for your back than doing than doing that and that's how everybody's everyone sits You know doctors to McGill. Do you know who he is? No, no back mechanic So he is the world's number one lower back pain doctor and I had a ton of back pain 2017 2018 so 2019 after I brought him on the podcast I flew to Gravenhurst Which is two hours north of Toronto so I landed in Toronto on my own rented a car from Toronto airport Drove two hours north to Gravenhurst to see this guy and you're back. It was killing you by the time you were I wasn't assisted at all and I get there and it's this sort of crazy Wizard of the lower back that I went to go and see with huge mustache looks like like Santa Claus on his off day and He said I don't take Private clients and sort of full with all of this stuff But if you come out with me and we go fishing and if you catch a fish Then I'll do your entire consultate. He's quite playful like that. He's the best. He's the absolute best And I love that guy, but I remember I was sat with him Morning after we'd been together and we were becoming really good friends He gets a phone call and it was a woman. I don't know how she'd got his number. Maybe somebody had passed her on and This woman said I'm in so much chronic pain for my lower back That I want to take my own life or I want to find a way to end my life and I'm thinking about doing it tomorrow and I've watched This guy who I just met and was dealing with me a young dude that had done too much crossfit and Listen to him sort of talk this person Back off the ledge of There are a ton of different interventions do not get surgery. You don't need to do this You don't need to do that. But this person was oh that was it. Sorry. No They were they'd wanted to do that and the only solution they could think of was surgery But the outcomes for lower back surgery are usually worse People go to a lower baseline afterward because the complications the potential complications This is what happened with Ronnie Coleman if you know him mr. Olympia big huge Eight-time mr. Olympia guy and now he walks with crutches. I think he said his pain day to day is Regular nine out of ten and he's on the maximum legal dose for percuss at us some sort of other opiate So yeah, sometimes the medicine is worse than the disease when it comes to that It's a very it's a really tough surgery long long recovery periods and often as you say you know often the results aren't so great The key to this whole thing is is really prevention Rather than intervention if you have if you have really bad bad back You have to intervene and deal with it, but ideally you don't want it You want to protect your back? I found some stats around office workers Around 80% of office workers sit between four and nine hours daily Desk job syndrome now includes back pain headaches numbness and diastrain muscular skeletal disorders account for one third of all Workplace injuries in the US costing employers an estimated $50 billion annually in compensation and loss productivity People who predominantly sit at work have a 16% higher risk of all cause mortality and a 34% higher risk of dying from cardiovascular disease and Office workers can spend over 10 hours sitting each day Some estimates put a typical office workers total sedate to time up to 15 hours a day when you include commuting and leisure and Then sleep on top of that that you're basically going from static to static with brief Intoludes of movement and sleeping is sleeping is good and by the way laying down in a bed is a very healthy thing to do And by the way the interesting thing when you're sleeping is you move here. You're not Perfectly still by any means we all move we use our large muscles and moving It's not hilarious that people might move more when they're asleep than when they're at work. Oh much more Without a doubt they move more because once you're in a chair and you're You're hunched over on your computer people don't move and you've seen these you will you obviously have seen the same stats I have People People don't move and the data is clear and like there's all these these articles that say that Sitting is as bad for you as smoking. It's one of the worst things you can do It's not actually sitting that's that's problematic. It's sitting still When you sit perfectly still it's the only time in your life pretty much when you're not using your large muscles at all and And that's what's causing a lot of these problems was causing the vast majority of these health problems aside from the musculoskeletal issues a Humans just not meant to sit at desks then You could certainly say that Yes, it's sitting is not the greatest thing in the world It's yeah, I think that's true. However There are healthier ways to approach sitting and we we need to sit and by the way if we're standing all day I said we had a sit stand desk and we stood all day That the date on that is clear too. That's not healthy You're your your your blood and your fluids pool and you're in your lower legs veins There's there yeah, there's problems with your veins your veins have to return blood to your heart That's done with movement by the way There's no the pumping is not really effective anymore you move and that's what moves the blood back to your heart and when you're standing up It has to go up fight gravity so standing isn't the answer either I don't think sitting is gonna go away, but I think it's really important that we sit in a healthy way and that's What what us what we at human scalar obsessed with of course if sitting is the new smoking Wise known's behavior changed For one thing people didn't I don't think there's a lot of data behind sitting's the new smoking the data shows that the problem isn't really sitting The problem is really sitting perfectly still and not moving. Okay, that's you think most people who sit sit still The vast majority of people sit still and they sit still for a number of reasons, but the main reason they sit still if I this this goes back When when before we made chairs I never understood why everybody was hunched over their desk. I'd see people wherever I was in the world Everyone's the same. They're all typing leaning forward on their desk hunched over the desk as I said earlier They're back not even touching the back of the chair Mm-hmm, and I that's not comfortable. I mean if you were sitting at home watching Watching a video podcast you wouldn't be on your couch like this right you you would you would lean back it relax and So we knew it's we know it's incredibly unhealthy from musculoskeletal point of view We know it's incredibly unhealthy from just from a longevity point of view So I asked I used to ask people I asked my friends who work that way I asked strangers offices why they work that way And no one knew everyone said it was comfortable or something like that. So it's interesting Your question is don't they know and the answer is no they don't they don't know it's that it's unhealthy and They don't know that it's not good to sit that way and they don't even know why they're sitting that way What's the problem with the static sitting? Why is that particularly bad for us? Well, I think that's what it comes down to that that's the only as I said earlier. That's the only time in your life I said aside from maybe a special situation What made me hear it a cast or something where you're not using your large muscles The rest of your day you're using your large muscles When you're sleeping you're using a large muscles when you're sitting in your office Working on a computer you're hunched over your desk and your large muscles your quads and so on are not engaged for extended periods of time Okay, what is a better way to think about designing a healthy work environment that you're going to be at whether you're one person in your Spat bedroom or you're part of an office and you get some say in how you your office is designed. Well, certainly having a sit stand desk helps because then it's appropriate and healthy. Once an hour stand for a bit, whatever is comfortable for you, half an hour, 10 minutes would be, it is a very healthy thing, getting movement. I was a standing over, however, a standing over the other day, a large financial trading floor in London. It was a huge floor, 1200 seats and it was all open and I was standing with the head of workplace design and we were looking at this space and there's 1200 people there. I said, "Oh, so these all have high adjustable desk gain, right?" "Yes, she was quite proud of that." I said, "You know what would be fun? Let's count how many people are standing." She said, "Sure." We counted five people, Chris. Out of 1200. It was very interesting. She assured me that more people stand in the morning. I was like, "Okay, fine. I'm sure." Okay. I think a sit stand desk is a good thing to have if you use it. The data tells us that unfortunately most people don't use it. I think that's important. The second thing is, and this gives you a little idea of what my journey was, I couldn't understand why people were hunched over their desk like that. Someone told me it was comfortable and it's not. I'd ask a lot of people that question. An ergonomist, a friend of mine, I told him the story and he said, "Bob, you're asking the wrong question." I asked my friends, I asked strangers in offices. If there's a stranger in an office who's hunched over their desk like that, which is pretty much everybody, I'd go over to them and I'd say, "Oh, excuse me. That's a cool chair. What kind of chair is that?" I was just to break the ice. I wouldn't look at an idiot asking the next question. They invariably say, "Oh, I'm not sure." They'd say, "Hey, I'm curious. How do you lean back in that chair?" That's what he told me to ask. How do you lean back in that chair? What I found, shocked the hell out of me, what I found was that literally no one, maybe someone in facilities are a professional, but outside of that, no one knew how to lean back in their chair. Everybody said, "Oh, it's one of these levers here. I have the instructions in the drawer or something like that." I thought, "Oh, my God, this is crazy. That's why people are sitting this way." The chair's locked. Nobody has had to operate the controls. It's user error. You can't, I would say, design error. Right, right. I'd say design error. No one does that. What do you do? You can't sit bolt upright for very long. Your muscles start getting tired really quickly and you're very quickly going to this posture. It's perfectly natural. Your chair's unlocked. Flops back doesn't support you. You get in that posture even sooner. I thought, "Wow, that's the problem. The complexity of chairs, I think, is a considerable contributor to the issue of lack of movement because you can't move. Your chair's locked. You're locked as well." Okay. So sit stand desk or have another environment that you can work. If you don't want to get a sit stand desk, presumably you could go from your seated desk to the kitchen counter or to, like we've got in here. We've got this sort of high bench that allows people to go to. If they don't want to adjust that desk, let's say that we didn't have them even though we do. Second thing, get a chair which is sufficiently simple that you understand how to use it. Right. Right. Okay. What else? What are we thinking about with regards to head angle, arm angle, hands, eye position, stuff like that? Well, that stuff is important. Your eyes should be approximately level with the top third of your monitor. Roughly. Right. You don't want to be looking, you don't want to look down. You certainly don't want to look up because that can cause neck issues. It's natural for your eyes to look slightly down. So your eyes should be level with the top third of your monitor, even on the top line of the text on your monitor. And other than that, you want to move. You should, it's healthy to, you know, if you have a document you want to read. Don't read it like this. And by the way, it's natural to lean back and read a document like this. Grab if you want to have a phone call. And back in the old days, we would go like this. But now, lean back and have a chat. Some of someone says, "Oh, hey, did you see what happened in San Francisco yesterday?" It's natural to say, "No, what happened in San Francisco?" And chat like that. It's natural to do that. But the problem is if you have to operate controls to do those things, you won't move. And that's what I recognized back in the 90s, because I was always obsessed with this. And I asked all these people these questions. I've asked hundreds of people, "Hey, how do you lean back in your chair?" And no one could answer it. And so that goes to my journey, just to tell you, I figured, "All right, we are obsessed at human scale. We're always obsessed with simplicity. We design the first keyboard support where you put your keyboard on a platform and it's basically on your lap where you just put it where you want it and it stays there. Historically, you'd have to undo a knob and move it and tighten the knob down. And the knob would be hidden under the board so you couldn't see it." So we came up with actually a designer, George Malayos. We hired, figured it out, which is a whole separate story, quite an interesting story of this separate, where you just put it where you want it and it stays there, like magic. So we became the market leader by far in that category, same with monitor arms. We designed an arm with roller bearings so you could move it on one hand, instead of rostling with it with two and so on. And so I was always obsessed with simplicity. And then I thought I always thought chairs were furniture. And then I realized, when after asking all these folks this question, that a chair is actually an ergonomic device, more than a piece of furniture, a desk chair is. And so we figured this is perfect. We'll design a chair that's easy to use. And we'll solve all these problems, make people work in a healthy, working a healthier way. They can move from one position to another. It'll be great. How hard can it be? And of course, it turned out to be really, really hard. You supplied Obama with his chair, right? That he used in office for a good one. He apparently bought a chair from us. I didn't know that until I saw a picture of him on TV one day when he was doing an ad, I think. And in his home office, he sits in a freedom headrest. So a huge number of world leaders, business leaders sit in freedom headrests, and it's not of our doing. I wish I could say we were sharp, it's smart enough to figure that out. How we got them to get our chairs. But people just figured it out by themselves, which is kind of cool. When I saw it, I understand freedom, you don't need to be over complicated in the chair, etc. I assumed wrongly when I first saw it that you'd named the freedom chair after the fact that Obama used it. No, no, no, no. You know, as in the freedom chair. Yeah. We came out, we launched the freedom chair in 1999 when Bill Clinton was in office. Okay. Yeah. That would have maybe been called a different kind of chair if he was a scientist. (laughs) A quick aside, there is a stat that genuinely surprised me when I first heard it. 95% of people don't get enough fiber. Not because they're being careless, but because hitting your daily fiber target through food alone is actually quite hard, but that's why momentous built fiber. Plus, see, fiber isn't just a digestion thing. It's the foundation of your gut health, which drives how well you absorb nutrients, how stable your energy is, and how quickly you recover. If your gut isn't dialed in, everything else that you're doing is working at a fraction of its potential. Fiber plus is a three-in-one formula built to address digestion, gut barrier strength, and blood sugar stability all at once. And this cinnamon flavor is unreal. You might think, fiber, wow, I bet that tastes great. Well, yeah, actually it does. Douters, I really enjoyed this. Best of all, my mentor's offers a 30-day money-back guarantee. So if you're not sure, you can buy fiber plus, try it for 29 days. If you don't love it, they'll just give you your money back. And they ship internationally. Right now, you can get up to 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day money-back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentus.com/modernwisdom and using the code "modernwisdom" or check out. That's L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S.com/modernwisdom and "modernwisdom". Check out. Um, Columbia University study that I came across found that people who took a slow five-minute walk every 30 minutes experienced normal 60% reduction in blood sugar spikes after eating and even just one minute of movement every 30 minutes lowered blood pressure. This is all just playing into your move. Well, we've always believed in movement, allowing people to move. If you allow people to move, they move. It's natural for people who don't like to sit perfectly still. If you give them the freedom, if you will, to move, they'll move. That's what we do with chairs. After many years, I was unable to find a designer who had any idea what I was talking about when I said, "We need a chair that's easy to use so people can move without thinking too hard about it." And no one really had an idea about that. What are the most common postumeths that you see? Well, the one myth is that there are postures that are good and you should stick with that. It's not about posture. It's about movement. You can pick any posture you want. Well, that's not really true. You want to move from one posture to another. That's the most important thing you can do. Posture wise, leaning forward like this and bending your spine forward like that is one of the worst things you can do for for musculoskeletal health for shoulders, your neck, obviously your spine. That's you don't want to be in that posture. There's more stress on the spine if you do that than almost any other posture. Sitting upright is much better but not great because now all even your perfectly upright all of your weight of course goes right down your body and fully loads your spine right into your sitting bones. What I will say is watch what happens when you lean back. Now your weight is distributed to the backrest of the chair and not so much straight down your spine. So the more you lean back the less stress you have on your spine. If you lean back enough you'll be laying on a bed and you have almost no stress on your spine. There's a famous quote by Neil Stifferin who designed our chairs that I forget exactly but it came to the point where he said but the best chair is a bit which is ridiculous because it's not a chair it's a pet. But the more he was pointing out that the more he reclined the less stress there is on your spine. Well maybe that would I don't know whether people have developed bed desks but I imagine that. Oh they don't or they have plenty of those. Okay very good very good. I'm not sure those are so great for either. I'm not going to take off. So he's most posture advice nonsense then if it's not talking about just keep moving. No no I mean you know they're not not just nonsense. I mean punching forward like this is something you should avoid for sure. There's a number of things that you should avoid. Leaning back is good. The more you lean back the better. I would say just being natural and I think it's very natural to lean back and do a zoom call. Lean you back rather than you don't want to typically do a zoom call leaning forward. How much of human behavior is dictated by the environment versus discipline? Do you think that environment shape behavior more than willpower does? Well everyone have a different opinion on that Chris of course I believe very strongly the environment drives behavior. I don't think I don't think many of us are truly disciplined day to day. Some people are it's good to be disciplined. I try to be disciplined. Sometimes I'm disciplined sometimes I'm not but but if you have the right environment that can drive the right behavior. How so? Well a chair. If you have a chair a traditional chair if you look at the internet and you see all these chairs for sale they all have locks on them so you can lock them in place. They all have knobs to adjust the recline tension on the backrest. They all have all these manual controls. If you are truly disciplined you you could operate these controls so to lean back in a traditional chair the chairs you see on the internet for sale. If you want to lean back say say you got a phone call and you want to chat with somebody you first lean forward get all your weight off the backrest because there's a safety lock on all chairs there has to be because the tension might be said incorrectly. Then while you're leaning forward you reach back and operate a control knob or a lever and release it and then you could lean back and then take your call or read the document and then to set up you do the same thing in reverse wait forward click the the control back where it started. If you're truly disciplined you could do that regularly and get all the movement you need. But the data the data tells us and just pure observation tells us that no one does that so discipline or no discipline no one's doing it. But if you sit in a chair that that allows you to move freely it's very common we see we see people lean back and chat, lean back read the document sit up and work on the computer and move. Getting the obstacles of movement out of the way is the key to the whole thing. What does that do to productivity efficiency mood? Well it's obviously I haven't seen any hard data on that because there's not a lot of chairs that do that. I mean we pioneered that whole concept. I say we with our designer Neil's different brilliant designer. The last of the mid-century modernists were very blessed to work with them for 16 years until he passed away. There's no hard data. There is some data we've got there's a couple studies out there that have said that if you the simpler a chair is to use the fewer musculoskeletal incidents you have. I haven't seen anything on mood but people are say they're more comfortable and there's fewer musculoskeletal injuries. Well I have to assume physical discomfort degrades cognitive performance. If you were trying to work and I just kept nipping the back of your car the entire time I didn't think I'd be able to get that much work done and the small insults like that that happen all the time. I think about some of the places that I've worked back in the day like some of the old chairs that we would have had in our office when I was running nightclubs and we would get something at Facebook marketplace or cafes that I've worked at. I mean some European cafe with my laptop out on a wrought iron outdoor you know having a wonderful cappuccino or a espresso or something like that and I'm saddened something that looks like it was made to be the front gate of a British house. Yeah no that's not that's going to be distracting but also if you're sitting in one posture I think your blood flow is less when you know move your your blood flow slows down. So there's all of those things. If you're in an uncomfortable seat it might cause you to move more. There you go. So I wonder if some seats that are uncomfortable would increase your discomfort but also increase your movement. So maybe it would be better for you from a cardiovascular standpoint than it would be to be in a comfortable but locked chair. Well true except except that it will change you might move less but you might move you might move more but you might move more in a really awkward posture like hunched forward. Right. If you can't lean back I don't know I haven't seen that one. Yeah but basically you want to allow people to move. You want to get rid of those obstacles and you want to encourage encourage people to move but again by getting rid of these obstacles and in our chairs you can just move from one position to another without thinking about it. If you have a high adjustable desk that takes discipline. You have to say all right I'm going to stand up every once in a hour for 10 minutes and that's it. You know it would be fun. Would be to make a sit-stand desk you could put a timer on. Well no that's very interesting you say that. Working it's like fuck telling me. Well yeah that's interesting. So we're working on a sit-stand desk is like they're all kind of the same. It's a bit of a commodity. Push a button it goes up but we're working on a new handset that we'll release later in the year. It'll keep track of how much time you spend standing and you can even set a goal. I want to stand. I want to stand for I don't know. Automate it. 50 minutes. Bob I'm telling you. 50 minutes. Automate it. Automate that thing. If you automate that sucker and someone's in the middle of working away and they're sat down and it just the desk starts rising. That's what you're going up with it. You know what I mean you can put it in hardcore mode and there's nothing that you can do like you're in the middle of a call you're desperately trying to sign some documents that are now ahead high. I don't tell you that's like it. That's this that's this way. Hey bring me on the tip. Right that one down. Yeah that's good. So I think about how good design can remove the need for willpower. You can't eat the cookies that aren't in your house. If you're trying to avoid snacking late at night. When you say that I was looking for the cookies. I'm afraid not. Sorry. But we've got a lot of stimulants. I can give you those. Making the thing that you want to do as easy as possible. Just has to be the first stage of everything when it tries to design your environment. Hey do you want to spend the time on your phone? Put it outside of the room. If you don't want to be on your phone when you're at work put it outside of the room. And I guess the problem now is there was already even 30 years ago before social media and before the internet being as ubiquitous as it is now. There was already things that could distract you. There's sort of inherent just human distracted below. That's something going on outside. If somebody comes in and has a talk with me or this phone call or whatever. Now after that you've got to think, I want to design my environment so that I'm not too distracted. Maybe I'm going to have curtains that I can draw in front of me so that when people walk past I'm not going to get distracted by that. Maybe I'm going to look out at a window so that I get a little bit more light coming into my eyes. That's probably good for eye health, etc. But you don't just have to design your physical environment. Now you have to think about your digital environments. Now you need to use app blockers and screen time apps. You need to have different devices in different locations. The world is becoming incredibly complex, Chris. You're absolutely right. Yes. Yeah. It's getting worse and worse and worse. This episode is brought to you by Jim Shark. I've tried pretty much every brand of Jim Web over the years. 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A checkout. Talk to me about eye health, because this is something kind of an unseen challenge. I actually, Jerry, can you ask Chad, what the rates of eye problems are over time? Are they getting worse due to screen use? Is there any data around there? That'd be great to find out. Thank you to our partner, Chad GPT. The interesting thing with what you said though, is that the world is becoming more complex. We're dealing with software on phones, software on computers. And yet, we have now, and we have chairs. Most companies, when they get chairs, and most individuals, they get chairs, they teach people how to use their chairs, how to operate these knobs and levers. I think that's totally wrong. I think it's super important that people, as the world becomes more complex, things become simpler. And chairs and things like that work for you automatically. Okay, so myopia rates have been increasing globally, especially in children and young adults. Some projections suggest 40 to 50% of the world, maybe myopic by 2050, large-matter analysis of 335,000 people. Every hour a day of screen time increase, is around 21% higher odds of myopia. And risk rises sharply between one to four hours a day, almost doubles by the time you get to four hours. This is one of the strongest overtime findings. It's exposure to screens has increased. Myopia prevalence has risen in parallel, especially in kids. Go down a bit more for me. Jared, okay, dry eyes. I've seen that one before. Get going. It's debated. Myopia screens themselves may not be the only cause reduced outdoor time near work. Anything up close, just not screen. Yeah, suppose if you. Unless there's something special about screens, if you just spent a ton of time reading something at distance, screens are particularly harmful because they replace outdoor exposure, which protect eye development, the overtime pattern. So yeah, massive increase in daily screen time, parallel rise in myopia in the 2000s to the 2020s in the smartphone. Less than an hour a day, near baseline risk, one to three hours a day, noticeably increase in four plus hours a day, sharply higher risk, especially for myopia. Yes, eye problems have increased. What do we do about this? It's not my area of Chris. Sorry. Well, I've got. It's a huge issue, but it's not something that we've addressed. Okay. Well, I've got the only thing that I know from this, which was episode 20 or something, you'll be episode 1,120. I'm really digging into the archives. So there's something called interesting, called the 2020-20 rule. So for 20 minutes, every 20 minutes, for 20 seconds, you look at something that is more than 20 feet away. And unfortunately, what I realized, because I was doing the Pomodoro technique at the same time, so that's 25 minutes on with a five minute break, doing blocks of that, and then a bigger break and then coming back. And then also I was thinking about needing to sit and stand at the same time. So I've got this endless fucking spy-regraph of intersecting timings that I need to do. I've got this endless amount of different interval where I go, well, 20 minutes, I need to look at something. And in five minutes, I'll take a break. And then it becomes a little bit difficult to try and do this. And it's what we said before that humans maybe aren't meant to do this kind of work. And what ergonomics is trying to do is to create a good solution to an artificial problem. And yeah, my most complex, my most sterile and ridiculous, the office that I was working at in Newcastle, we all had different beings and bonds and time is going off on our phones. Reminders that we needed to stand up or go for a walk or reminders that we needed to look at something that was more than 20 feet away. 'Cause I'm coming in when I first start the podcast, I'm coming into this office filled with 18, 19, 20-year-old kids. And I'm going, I just learned about the David Allen getting things done. I've just done Tiago Forte's external brain. I've got to show you this notion, this Evernote template. Let me show you how you can capture all of the thoughts that you have. And these kids are made of rubber and magic. They don't care. They don't care what I've got to say. - No, that's right. - They didn't care at all. - Kids don't care. They're indestructible. - Correct, they're literally indestructible. So I'm like, okay, well, I'm trying to do it, but after a while, the boss says that he's doing it, so maybe it'll be good for me to do. And before I knew it, I was like, you, oh, it's so over complex. But at the same time, if you don't do it, then yeah, you end up with this situation where you think, I was talking to a streamer sat here, Nick Nocturnald, great musician streamer. And he was saying to me, there was days that he would work on music, 'cause he would write music live. And there would be days where he wouldn't see sun. He wouldn't see the sun, he wouldn't go outside at all during the day. And that's just, you know, on one hand, very disciplined, like really grinding. He's incredibly successful. He's done really great. And now he's got this house, or this wife and everything's going wonderful. And you think, look at the benefits that this world that you've constructed has afforded you. But then also all of the costs are hidden. You know, the costs of your eyes degrading over time, the cost of your cardiovascular degradation, et cetera, et cetera. - Yeah, and it's an interesting point. Most people work indoors all the time under artificial light. That's not much different than working in darkness. Artificial light generally is very far removed from real sunlight. So people work indoors and has huge health implications. The main problem with it is sleep. If there's clear data on this, if you work outdoors, you're healthier, you live longer, primarily because you sleep better. - No way. - That's what the link is. There's nothing special about the alfresco thing. Or maybe there is a little bit. - Or maybe some other things too. - But there are margins for the head. - Sleep thing is hugely important. It's hugely important. So what happens is if you work outdoors under sunlight, sunlight, blue light, it's not blue, but they call it blue light. It's a very high spectrum light. Suppresses melatonin. Suppresses the your body's production of melatonin. And you can see I've seen many graphs on this. So the graph of melatonin production will be a flat line really low. But then toward the evening, actually, if you stay outside, the sun goes down and all of a sudden the sky becomes very warm. During the middle of the day, it's very cool light, called blue light. In the evening, it goes down. It's very warm light, very orangey, right? That light and actually darkness allows you to produce, stops the suppression of melatonin and allows melatonin to be produced at a rapid rate. So now your body, it's suppressed melatonin production all day. Now it's kind of free and it produces a ton of melatonin. And melatonin puts you to sleep. It allows you to sleep well. But if you're indoors, your body has no melatonin suppression. - It's the difference. - So the graphs will show melatonin production for someone working indoors, quite high. By the way, that affects your alertness and all, right? And then in the evening, when it normally spikes up, it'll bounce up a little maybe, but barely. So you have the same melatonin production during the day as at night. Maybe a little different, but not much different. And so people struggle to sleep. I met with an architect years ago and he said, "Oh, I love this building. "I just moved into a new office." He said, "I have more energy now. "I'm more alert. "I just love this space." And I was like, "What was your old space?" Like, "Oh, I had a cubicle, but whatever." And then he's, let me show you my office. And his office was all like 100% glass floor of ceiling facing south. And the sun was like coming right in. And he felt amazing. He felt amazing 'cause he was essentially working outdoors. - My best friend was working in Dubai on his business. And we've got the guy actually who's in that photo over there, the dude with the beard and the rough. So Alex kind of popular. - He's older, he's been around for a while. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're aristocracy. He kind of popularized essentially working in a cupboard. It's, you can glorify however you want, but it's a cupboard. You can call it a focus chamber or whatever you, but it was a wardrobe, a very, very large wardrobe. And there would be no windows, no nothing, and you'd be completely undistracted, a pair of noise canceling headphones on, and he would work, and this was what worked for him. So George, my friend decided, I'm gonna follow what Hamoz Ydas, he says that he says that working in a essentially in a cupboard's fight, and in Dubai, they have these, they're kind of like servants quarters, if you have a maid. So in these houses that aren't even that big, but they're just kind of common because of the sort of ex-paths that live there, you've got the smaller bedroom with the bathroom. On site, he's like, hey, this is a mini, this is a one person office, it's like a studio office, and he went in and he noticed over time, the space of three months or so of working in there. He's like, I really moody. I don't know how sleeping that goes. I don't know if being that productive, and I kind of don't like my life. He's like, hang in a second. I locked myself in a room for hours every day, and then thought, okay, maybe it works. There's a certain type of personality that this does work for, and he wasn't that. So. Yeah, I got it. One of the favorite things I've had since moving to America, and especially living in a city in a state that's got way better weather, is the opportunity to just work in different places. I'm gonna get up and go outside, and if I've got a little table outside that I can work at, that's lovely, but in the UK, what am I gonna do? I mean, yeah, I'm okay, I can work in front of a window, but for the most part, I'm just gonna be, like, covered in rain. If I want to go outside and work, it's gonna be raining on me. So, yeah, the idea of going Alfresco and that difference, that's the other thing as well, actually, on an evening time, originally people thought that looking at blue light from screens was what caused the suppression of melatonin that meant the people weren't sleeping as much. There's some new research I've looked at. Jerry, can you look at this? What is the latest research on screen use at night, affecting melatonin, versus social media, and the mindset people are impacting their sleep. So, at least what I saw was that it's way less to do with the light and way more to do with the cognitive environment that you're in. You're in this hypostimulated, open loop, probably agitated, tribal, like soup, and then you go, okay, bring time to turn off. - Yeah, right. And that's people's bedtime routines. - Right, well, their feed, their feed is stuff such that it gets them stimulated, otherwise it wouldn't be in your feed. So, if you're, you know, if you're a right-wing extremist, you're seeing all this crazy stuff that's happening and it gets all worked up. - Yeah, of course. Real world effects from screens are smaller than people think. A large study of 122,000 people's screen use before bed linked to slightly less sleep, around five to eight minutes, and worse perceived quality. Some reviews find minimal or overstated effective the screen itself, okay, go down. Bigger takeaway, behavior, here it is, psychological stimulation, doom scrolling, delayed bedtime, cognitive and emotional arousal, notifications interrupting sleep. Several studies emphasize that content and engagement are often more important than the light itself, interactive or emotionally engaging screen use has a longer, stronger sleep effect than passive viewing. Timing context matter. - Yeah, I mean, - Yeah, that makes sense. - I think that makes sense. You know, also don't forget, chances are, you're looking at your phone and your phone is a fairly small generator of light, it's not so big compared to your whole room. So maybe that's part of it too. Maybe if you're looking at a 34 inch display, - If you're swiping on Instagram on your widescreen too. - But be a little different, yeah. - A quick aside, most people think that they're dehydrated because they don't drink enough water. 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And they offer free shipping in the US. Right now, you can get a free sample pack of elements most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinklmt.com/modem wisdom. That's drinklmt.com/modem wisdom. Have you looked at anything to do with flux and apps like that that kill some of the blue light from screens? Yeah, those have been around for a long time. Everybody has access to that. And I don't know, I haven't seen any data on it, but it's probably a good thing. And blue light isn't great, but this is pointing out that blue light from your screen isn't that big a deal. Not for the melatonin. I wonder whether there's something else that's going on, the dryness in the eyes. But again, maybe there's, maybe academics since the beginning of time, you know, dusty librarians that have been looking at books up close. Perhaps they have also been suffering with this thing too. I don't know, maybe there's something more active 'cause you're still reading on a screen. I don't know. I'm sure there's issues there. I mean, one of the real big problems with your eyes, if you were to develop glaucoma or one of these things that can cause the long-term loss of vision. I just know this because my Thomas just keeps telling me about it is exposure to sunlight without protection. You know, when you're out during the day and the sun is very bright, it's very damaging to your eyes. Everyone I'm talking to says we're sunglasses. So I'm very careful to wear sunglasses. In fact, they can see the damage when they look at your eyes or they go for an eye exam and they'll say how that's sun damage. So I think it's really important to wear sunglasses certainly outside. But again, that's not my area of expertise. When you look at the work environments for men and women, are there only sex differences for what men need and what women need? Have you split this off by gender? - Well, no, when it comes to gender, we look at size and we think it's really important. A lot of products are designed by men and essentially for men. I said, you know, it's kind of weird, you could look at a chair and say that's a very masculine chair. - In fact, most chairs. - In fact, color. - No, just the way it looks, the way it's designed is designed in a rough kind of heavy way, whereas other chairs you would say are more neutral. We are very careful designed, everything we do in a neutral way. - Is that aesthetic a functionality? - It's both, of course, aesthetic for sure. - And but function as well. - Jared actually optimizes for a feminine chair, don't you? - Yes. - At any point, you've got to try and offset that mustache. - It's interesting. When you think about it, how do we design things for humans? When we take the average female, we take the average male, we average them together to get the average human and we design for the average human. On the whole planet, there isn't perfectly average humans, who we're designing for this mythical being. That's problematic in itself because the further you happen to be from being perfectly average, the worse your experience is with that particular product. And that's one of the things that we think a lot about, Neil's different, he designed our chairs, who's quite brilliant. He designed the chairs so that basically the reason he doesn't have all the knobs and levers is simple. Every chair is a spring under it, a knob to control the force on the spring and a lock to lock it. He got rid of all that, he got rid of the spring, he got rid of everything and he just used the weight of whoever happens to sit on the chair as a counterbalance. The linkage just transfers a percentage of the weight to the backrest as a counter force. So that means if a light woman, 20% of female sits in it in the chair, it uses her weight to create the recline force for her specifically. If a 90% male sits in it, it does the same for that person. - Sure. - That's what I think is really important when it comes to gender. I mean, people are very men and women are very different. The average male and average female are very different. - So you know that study around the fight of pilot seats around the sort of thing that you're referencing there that if you're trying to design for the average, you design for nobody. So I think it was US government, US military were trying to work out what proportions, particular fighter jet seat needed to be. They put millions and millions of dollars into aggregating all of this stuff and it turned out that zero fighter pilots could get into it, non. They're designed for average, which meant that actually designed for nobody. - Right. Which is what, that's how everything is designed. It's designed for the average and that's a problem. A famous critique of design where an article about one of Neil's first chairs, or Liberty Chair. The Liberty Chair, I'll tell you the story really quickly. It's kind of interesting. This is back in 2000. We had launched our Freedom Chair. This chair we're sitting in, which was very successful. It's self-adjusting and all that. But at that time, the air on chair from Herman Miller, you've seen that chair. It's the most successful chair in super popular. History of chairs, designed by Bill Stump, on Chadwick, to great designers. So it was the first mesh chair. And mesh is nice because it breathes, it's on an insulator, uses less materials, it's better for the environment, and all that. So every new chair that came out back then was a mesh chair. And so, like everyone. And so we had just done the Freedom Chair. So I went to Neil's, I said, "Neil's, I've been thinking about this and it's pretty clear what we need to design. I have a vision of the future. We should design a mesh chair." And Neil said, "Bob, that's a genius idea, another genius idea, you're brilliant." Actually, let's know what he said. He said, "Bob, that's one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard, something along those lines." He said, "Number one, everybody's doing a mesh chair to copy the air on chair. That's a good reason not to do it." But he said, "Secondly, the way you make a mesh chair is you take stretch mesh, you attach it to a frame, so you can't control the shape, like you can with molded foam, like on this chair. Furthermore, you stretch mesh on a woolen wrinkle, so when someone sits in it, it gives. So you need a lumbar support." And that's one more thing you have to adjust. The next question is, no one will adjust. So you're gonna make in the whole situation worse. Anyway, funny story. So he called me, I said, "Fine." And so he called me a few weeks later, or a month later, maybe. And he said, "I solved the mesh problem. Come on up to the studio." He lived in Connecticut. I lived in New York, so I drive up there all the time, which is a lot of fun. So when I got up there, he had a chair, the freedom chair from the seat down and something new from the seat up. The back of the chair was mesh, but it had three panels of mesh. It was shaped funny. And he said, "I got an idea from the clothing designers. They used panels of fabric to create a fitted shirt or fitted jacket." He said, "I did the same thing with the back of a chair." And so I can get the shape on. And he said, "But I can't use stretch mesh. That won't work." So he said, "Experimented with very minimal stretch mesh, but super flexible mesh." And he said, "When I got the right mix of minimal stretch, high flex, it was interesting in that you push a form into that material. The material will fill in the hills and valleys of the form rather than stretch over it because it has nowhere else to go." And conversely, it fills in the hills and valleys of the sitter's back. It takes on the exact shape of the sitter's back as if it was made for that sitter. And so I said, "That's pretty clever. We end up with two global utility patterns from that technology." But what's interesting about it is now this light woman sits in the chair. It uses her body weight to adjust the recline force and takes on the shape of her back. 'Cause if the chair was made for that person, not for the average person, but for this particular 20% tall female, and 80% tall male sits in, it does the same for that individual. So that's a new way of thinking about design that Niels pioneered, which is pretty cool. It gets away from this average concept. - What about saddle stools? I've seen those around a lot. Do you have some in the office? People like those. - Yeah, good saddle stools. Great, those Niels developed a saddle stool. If I'd either be, he might have been the first to do a saddle stool. And the saddle stool, it's shaped like a saddle or like a triangle. I was more like a triangle, but it means you basically have one leg over each side of a saddle type thing. And that encourages you to drop your thighs down in front of you. And drop by dropping your thighs down. It puts your back in a healthy, lordotic recall. - It's really hard to sit on a saddle stool with a curved spine. You feel like you're not. It's like being a question mark. - Once your thighs drop down, it's really hard to hunch forward. And it puts you in a really healthy posture. So those are really, a lot of labs are going to use those and that sort of thing. It's good for individual too, but I think it doesn't encourage you to move though. I think long term sitting, you wouldn't want to be in a stool. You'd want to be in a chair. - You should see charities whizzing around the office on his stool all the time. - What do you think a biologically aligned work day would look like? - What do you mean by that Chris? - Something that's going to maximize somebody's longevity. They've got a normal office job. They've got the stuff that they need to do. But from an ergonomics perspective, from a movement perspective, here's your right hours. This is what this would look like. - Obviously moving. I think if you have a sit sand desk and you use it, that's gonna be, that's really healthy. It's good for your muscles. It's good for longevity. A chair that allows you to move from one position to another without thinking about it. While you're sitting, you're moving. When you're standing, you're moving. And then encourage people. Again, this takes discipline and only a small number of people are disciplined. You're obviously very disciplined person, but most people aren't. Go for a walk, go for a walk around the office and chat with people every couple hours. Hard to, again, you take a bit of discipline, but that's really important. Then the other thing about that too, though, is, I always worried, we always worried about people sitting in a healthy way, allowing people to move, sit sand desk, making sure your monitor is in the right position 'cause if your monitor is on the front of your desk, you're not gonna lean back too much because you have to be a certain distance away from your monitor to read it. So we think it's really important to have the monitor on an arm. Most, almost every large company has a monitor arm so you can move the monitor. Just like this microphone is on an arm. This arm is actually very similar to the arms we make for monitors. So those things are really important and we used to think and continue to think a lot about that. But then I started thinking about other things. I started thinking about all the other things that impact people's health in the office. And one really important thing is indoor air. Indoor air is incredibly unhealthy, as you probably know. And the reason it's unhealthy is we have all this stuff in it and all this stuff off-gases, chemicals and carcinogens. And I had a bit of an epiphany at one point when I started reading about that and reading about how all this stuff off-gases. And I thought that's something that needs to be addressed. And we looked really hard at that and we lead our business, we lead the business of office furniture and even home furniture and getting rid of the chemistry that off-gases. - What's the biggest cause of it? I get the sense great that you're not off-gassing from being sat on a seat that's slowly leaking particulates into your brain. What about paint in buildings? What about the stuff that you guys don't, do you make carpets? Do you make where is most of it coming? What are the places that people should be looking at as the prime culprits for off-gassing in that? - I mean, carpeting is certainly one. Paint is another. And there is a big movement now. By the way, desking is another. Pretty much every desk is made out of MDF. Medium density fire board just ground up, sawdust and glued together. All of that stuff has formaldehyde in it. A lot of formaldehyde. And that formaldehyde off-gases. Carpets have all kinds of VOCs and off-casts. There's a big movement now to have ingredients labels on your products. To clear an HPD or the two standard ingredients labels. Just like food labels, there was a big movement, what, it must have been 30 years ago, to have ingredients labels on food. So now, anything you drink or eat has an ingredients label. So you can make a decision about a thoughtful decision about you wanna buy that product and put it in your body. Historically, products that go into your home or office don't have ingredients labels. And there was an article about this, a couple of you probably, like 10 years ago. And they brought this topic up to one of the largest furniture companies in the world. I won't mention who it is, just not to embarrass them. But the-- - Do it throw them under the bus. (laughing) - No, they'll get mad at me. But it basically doesn't matter who it is. All the large furniture companies in the world, essentially, have fought not to put ingredients labels on their products. So this executive said that it's quoted in the magazine. He said, "It's ridiculous to put ingredients labels on furniture since last time I checked we didn't need the furniture." And I thought that was the most self-serving thing you could ever say. We don't need it, but we breathe it. We breathe it. And that's an issue. So there's a huge movement. Google, for example, Google Harvard University, a bunch of organizations now have said, they won't consider a product for their office or their dorm or anything, unless it comes with an ingredients label to ClareHBD label, which is a really important movement. It's happening more and more. Designers are saying they won't spec a product unless it has an ingredients label. And it's pushing folks to do the right thing. - I mean, there's enough issues. It's since living in Austin. This country's great, but the building materials that you use are primitive. It's wood. It's timber. - Yeah. - And it gets wet and hot, wet and hot and wet and hot. And then it gets wet and hot and insulated and contained inside of cavity walls. And it's just a breeding ground for mold. - Mold is a big problem, yeah. - It's huge. And that's why we've got these Jasper air filter things that everywhere inside of this office. Because I lived in a house when I first moved out of an Airbnb that I was in. The first house I ever lived in properly in Austin infected me with toxic mold. And I'm still detoxing from that. - No, mold, I've heard terrible stories about mold. Mold is very, is very dangerous. - There's no joke. And the stupid thing is I actually feel like it's comic justice because Michaela Peterson, Jordan Stodder, she whined about mold all the time and we'd be catching up or whatever. And she'd be talking about how we've got into this new house and it's mold and I've got headaches and I'm tired and whatever and I was like, God, it's like a penicill. You've got defeated by penicill and throw the bread out. Like just making joke and then sure enough, the universe decided to deliver to me that this nut kick from infinity. Just going like, oh, you thought that this was funny and then sure enough, I got popped at the same thing and now I'm like, dude, I'm gonna tell you about the mold. It's so horrible you need to get to fill it. So yeah, it's a. - Yeah, mold is a serious business. But by the way, other people have had similar experiences with chemistry that they breathe PFAS. From aldehyde, there's tons of examples of people being hospitalized. because of they breathe too much from out-eyed, from flooring they put in. There was a big lawsuit in California a while ago. We'll get back to talking in just one second, but first, tell me if this sounds familiar. You train regularly, you eat reasonably well, maybe you even supplement, you feel fine, but you're just kind of going off vibes. Most people have absolutely no idea what's going on inside of their body, which is why I partnered with Function. Function gives you access to more than 160 advanced lab tests, spanning hormones, heart health, metabolic markers, inflammation, thyroid, nutrients, liver, and kidney function. It even detects early signals linked to more than 50 types of cancer. 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A checkout. That's functionhealth.com/modern wisdom and modern wisdom. A checkout. Chris Aschandon, who was the founder and still the main shelter in AG1, athletic greens, you know, the multi-billion dollar company, Kiwi, he was in a house that was off-gassing something to do with the paint. And what happens when you are exposed to mold, as you probably know, you get something called Sir's chronic inflammatory response syndrome. So your system's hypersensitized being around mold, then even if you get out of the mold and detox from it, there is a window of time where you're hypersensitive to being exposed to mold again. And Chris basically had the same thing, but for off-gassing. And he went and stayed in, he was basically medical tourism, he was around the world trying to find a solution to this. This treatment and that detox and this IV and this blood cleaning. And one of the places that put him up said, "We put you in the brand new, "it's the full season, it's a brand new place." He went in and within half an hour. It was so brand new that it was still pissing tons of paint particles into the-- Brand new, brand new is the worst. When you walk into a room that's brand new, you can smell that new smell. I'll take something to make. In your 80s, thank you. Like, ooh, that smells great. We're a new car, a new car smell. That smell is basically VOCs filling your lungs with carcinogen. It's really, it's-- It's a good-- It's very, very bad. It's a really good case for buying used cars. What you're doing is, you're saying, "Hey, I'm gonna let the first 10,000 miles "and this person breathe in all of the VOCs." And then once they've got it in their lungs, I can step in. So wearing in a cricket bat or a baseball bat or whatever. Yeah, that's right. You've got to play it out. Yeah. Yeah, when I get in my car, I just leave the windows down for the first 15, 20 minutes. Air condition cars are the worst because the windows are up. Of course, down here everybody has air condition cars, probably. Yeah, yeah. But it's in homes and in workplaces too. Formaldehyde is prevalent everywhere. I mean, this is solid wood, but this wasn't solid wood. It would invariably have Formaldehyde in the MDF. I'm very proud of my table. It's this. So I love solid wood. I love wood very, very proud of it. I love that. Have you seen the unnecessarily complex base plate that we put in as well? Look at that. I kind of sexy that is. If it looks like, I feel like I'm on a gallion ship. I think there's a pretty low probability that even if I lean on this table, they're just gonna follow it around me. Yeah, you can imagine if they use this in the WWE, it would kill people. Take six men to move. Yeah, it did take six men to move. They were able to build the thing in here. Okay, so. But I think this whole topic of breathing healthy air is hugely important. Another reminder of being outside. Being outside is great. Most people can't work outside. And so it's really important. And there's a lot of work being done on the area. And I think there's a lot of work being done by the design community, architects, and so on. And a lot of forward-thinking organizations are saying we'll only consider products that have an ingredients label. At HumanSkept, by the way, we pioneered these ingredients labels. We're the first ones to use them. At one point, I think it was around 2018, we had 80% of all the ingredients labels in the whole industry. And we're not that. We're not company. What? In one company. Not only one company, but we're not that big. I mean, we're, we have, I don't know, 1,500 employees, we're not that big. We account for only about 4% or 5% of the whole industry. And we had, we had 80% of all the ingredients labels. Even today, we have about 39% of all the ingredients labels at say 4% of the revenue. So we pioneered it. And I think it's important to deliver product to customers that don't have percentage in them. - I mean, what a radical. - Call me crazy for coming up with that. What a radical belief there to say, we deliver products to people that don't kill them more quickly. And we should actually try and encourage them to live in a way that makes them live longer as well. Bob, you're awesome. I love your stuff. Thank you for fueling the country with your, your furniture. Where should people go to check out more of the things that you're doing? - You know, we don't do a lot of online sales, but you can buy our chairs and our products online. So obviously, humanscaled.com. And we have offices you can go there and see where our showrooms are. - I can. - But thank you, Chris. It was really nice talking to you. So thanks for that. - Appreciate you, Bob. Bye, everyone. If you are looking for new reading suggestions, look no further than the Modern Wisdom reading list. It is 100 books that you should read before you die. The most interesting life-changing and impactful books. I've ever read with descriptions about why I like them and links to go and buy them. And you can get it right now. For free by going to chriswillx.com/books. That's chriswillx.com/books.