The Handyman of High Art: Tom Sachs On Why Creativity Is The Enemy, Why Talent Is Overrated, & The Disciplines That Define A Life

Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. We're back. It's time for roll on. I'm sitting across from my brother from another mother, Alex Alex. I got Alex on the road. Let me start over. Hey everybody roll on his back and it's coming right up but first. This episode is sponsored by Rivian. When I think back on some of my fondest memories from childhood, 100% of them happen outdoors on mountains in lakes and oceans, getting muddy in the local creek riding my bike around the neighborhood. Basic good stuff that leaves me thinking a lot about what kind of world we're leaving behind for the next generation. And this in a nutshell is what Rivian is all about. They're an all-electric vehicle company founded on a simple idea. Keep the world adventurous forever. I've been around RJ, the CEO and his kids, and so clear to me that this is his animating purpose. But he's not just thinking about them. He's making decisions based upon what our kids kids kids will inherit, which I love. And that philosophy is just deeply embedded in everything Rivian builds. These are zero tailpipe emission vehicles without sacrificing power or performance. The interiors use thoughtful sustainable materials that feel premium and intentional. And the first 10,000 miles are powered by 100% renewable energy with a growing charging network doing the same. It's not about choosing between exploring the world and protecting it. Rivian is like a passport to both. Meaning that when I'm driving the vehicle Rivian alone to me, I'm not just driving through the world I love. I'm driving for it, which is a pretty special feeling I want everyone to experience. We're back. It's Roland time. I'm sitting across from my brother from another mother, Mr. Adam Skolnick, my international correspondent. As I've been calling you lately. Yes. Today we're going to talk a little bit about Alex Honnold. We're going to talk what happened to Alex Prattied. We are going to discuss Peter Atia and then surgery recovery. A bunch of people that are asking me about how that's going. And then we're going to answer some listener questions. But first and foremost, how you doing, Adam? Good, man. Great to be back. Good to be here with you. Yeah. We had a nice midwinter summer moment. That was lovely. Seems to be over now. Yeah. Well, the rest of the country is suffering under a deep freeze, little sensitivity. Sorry. Adam. Not all of us are enjoying 80 plus degree Fahrenheit weather. Midwinter summer. I'm sorry. It's gone. That's the wrong note. Disturbing. If it makes anyone feel better, I spent like two out of the last three days in the car are our youngest daughter who is away in school wanted to come home for the weekend. So five and a half hours driving to pick her up and bring her home a day of spending time with her. And then another five and a half hours in the car taking her back. Wow. This is what you do when you're when you're a parent. Yeah. Yeah. We were in the car. We had a little road trip the last weekend too. I was in Sonoma. I did a book event in Sonoma. How'd that go? It went well. It was fun. It was like at this ranch owned by a this political kind of California old school political guy that had like 15 or 20 of his of his people there. That's cool. And so it was fun. And then then we drove down, but we had a little malfunction with our electric vehicle. It wouldn't take fast charging. So we had to do like this zipper. So it ended up being the adventure we hadn't signed up for. But we took in mirror woods, Monterey, Sanless, and just took like the slow, the slow march down and enjoyed this gorgeous, beautiful state of California. That's nice home. Yeah. Yeah. When you got the electric car like it, you know, you got a plan accordingly around that. If you're going to be driving a, you know, a great distance. Yeah. Let's start with Alex Honald. We hosted as many of you know our first live event here in the studio this past week. And that went swimmingly, I think it was super fun. We had Alex really just in one of his very first media appearances, post Taipei free solo, send, which was just incredible to have him here and have him interacting with a group of people that we kind of handpicked to attend this event. It was really a business sort of thing we had representatives from the brands that we work with. We had people from Netflix and Google and publicists and things like that. And it was really a test run to put this new facility that we've moved into to use to take advantage of this incredible theater where we're sitting right now, open it up to the public and begin tweaking this tried and true format of podcasting in a live environment. And I think it went really well. We learned a lot and it will be the first of many. And I think it puts us in a position to do some really interesting things. While everyone else in this space is sort of chasing subscriber growth and how many people are listening or watching, we're really focusing on strengthening the depth of our connection with the audience. And I think live events are the future and the best way to do that. And big live events are great, but there's something about this space that's very intimate. And I think lends itself to that depth piece that I'm really excited about. Yeah, the best shows we've ever been to in our lives thinking of music aren't they the intimate venues like the little club before the band broke. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So it's cool to have that feel here. And obviously fun to see Alex and you guys just flow so well. So it's always good. You bring something out into my thing that's different and it was super fun. Well, he's really a game to go anywhere. And he has such a grounded calm disposition. Like there's no question that you could ask him that would like fluster him. And I think what's underrated about Alex is his intelligence, his clarity of thought and his ability to so clearly articulate his perspective without any care about how it lands. Like he is not concerned with making sure he says the right thing. Like he's just like, this is how I see it. To me, it's like this. And then he's baffled if people are like, oh, wow, that's a different perspective. He's just like, well, that's who I am. Like he's unapologetically himself. And I think there's something refreshing about that, but also inspiring. Like he doesn't equivocate. He is authentically who he is. And obviously he's a very special person who can do incredible things that inspire us. But I think his demeanor is often overlooked as an essential piece in that kind of inspiring equation. No doubt. And and the flip side that is true as well. Like he doesn't care what other people say about him either. It doesn't affect him. He doesn't personalize any of it. No, he does take nothing personally. Like I remember I was when I was meeting with him. I had spoken with Tommy Caldwell and who had said when he first heard about it, the skyscraper event, he considered a media stunt. And then Alex subsequently kind of convinced him otherwise. But when I brought that up to Alex, he's like, well, you know, he didn't take it personally at all. He's like, Tommy can think whatever he wants. Like it doesn't bother him. And it clearly wouldn't affect their friendship. And so it's like, it's interesting to see like I remember when when New York Times first decided to kind of send me out there when they finally did it to go to Vegas to go to Vegas. Yeah, that's what you would ask on the podcast. I didn't really answer it appropriately. What it was like to go out to Vegas and spend time with them. And one of the things that I remember was the editor really wanted to push on kind of what's at risk for his family. And like, is that narcissistic? Is there something wrong with that? And you could I could tell that my editor kind of felt like there was. And so he's like, you know, Alex gets enough praise. We need to push him. And I'm like, I just said really clearly. I said, it's not going to be problem pushing like you could ask this guy anything. It's so rare. You know, and that is so rare. Like I've interviewed hundreds of people now of all walks of life. Some really trying circumstances and some kind of people that get a lot of praise. And every single one of them besides Alex, I need to be careful about what I bring up something that could be touchy. I've never had that experience before where I knew going in. It didn't matter when or what I said. It wasn't going to be taken personally or cause kind of a roadblock for further conversation. I just knew it ahead of time. And so I think that's exceptionally rare. And the other thing that I think I wish came across more that people don't get. I mean, two things is that first of all, he is a pillar of the rock climbing community out there. And when he was working out on that sport climbing route at Crystal Light Cave, it was him. It was a 67 year old professor of philosophies, the chair of the philosophy department at UNLV and just incredible shape named Bill. There was a woman whose husband is one of the best sport climbers in the world. I wish I could remember her name off had I apologize. But she makes a living like putting up lights on the street like in high, high angle cameraman, but with lighting. There was a jazz musician, like young guy whose father also climbs there without like Alex is now climbing with a second generation of climbers. And every one of them failed on what they were trying to do that day. They all were trying to send certain routes. Every one of them had different routes they were trying. And they all had their own partner and they all failed, including Alex. And what was interesting is that rock climbing is really a study in failure, which when you put that up against what he's doing for you solo, where failing is not allowed, I think it's really interesting. And I wish I had brought that up because it's something just to talk about for us all to contemplate. Like in this sport, well, they fail because of full body failure because they're climbing to their actual absolute max and their body just fails. Like real true literal failure. And then he takes up something where failure is absolutely not allowed. It's just such an interesting second side of the sport, you know. Just thinking about it makes my palms start sweating, you know. The other thing about Alex is that he's super funny. Yeah. If you can create an environment that allows him to relax like his, his, the comedy side of him really comes to the surface. And it's so enjoyable. And because I've had the good fortune of knowing him for a while and spending time with him and having interviewed him on this podcast, I don't know, probably like five times now or whatever. Like I know how to like create that environment to allow him to kind of shine in his own, you know, very specific unique, specific way. I mean, a little behind the scenes also, we have a ping pong table here at the studio. And so as soon as he arrived, it was like he's obsessed with ping pong. He's went straight to the ping pong table. Alex got so into it that we were in a side conference room kind of prepping for the event as people were starting to filter in. Alex came in, you were there and he changed. He changed, he like, he like changes outfits. So he got into like shorts and a tank top so that he could play better and he went back out to play. And he played ping pong almost right up until the event started. He went Jennifer Hudson ping pong with Greg Richroll. Yeah. And Kimmel the night, Kimmel the night before. And then today I just saw a clip that Netflix posted where he's sitting on top of the Netflix building like sitting on that, on the very edge. Do you see that? No. Because I think the day after our event, he went over to Netflix for a meeting. And obviously they had them, they put them on the top of the building or whatever for the big shot. But you know, quite quite a character. I do want to address one thing. Yeah. Which is right after watching him do the Taipei climb. But before the live event, I posted a video on Instagram. It was just a spontaneous like, hey, I'm going to whip out my phone and just share a few thoughts on what I just witnessed and kind of what I what I got out of observing what Alex had just done. And it's really this tale of two Alex's. It's sort of insane that the Matrix has wired it this way that literally on the same day that Alex did this, you know, accomplish this breathtaking feat that we have Alex Prede the other Alex, you know, being murdered by ice. On the one hand, we have what happened to Alex Prede just being, you know, basically a demonstration of the worst of man's impulses, aggression, violence, this, you know, debased act of violence. That is really, you know, emanates from this place of, you know, power control and fear. Right? Like this authoritarian overreach of ice at the behest of an administration that is, you know, careening us more and more towards authoritarianism. Basically, you know, expressing this overreach of power that ends up in tragedy and just inexcusable violence. And on the other hand, we have Alex Honald. And what he did was an expression of, you know, all wander and possibility. You know, Alex Prede was also fearless. And what he did was to step in into that into that situation was out of love and, and a fearlessness as well. And so it's interesting. They're both kind of different angles on love and fearlessness. And, you know, in Taiwan, I woke up before dawn wondering if there was going to be a clings of enraining for days. And the first thing I see is the headline. The first thing I saw that morning was Alex Prede and it was miserable, you know, like that's how you wake up. You know, the only thing I would add on the Alex Prede part is, you know, the city of Minneapolis is standing up. It's amazing to see. It's breathtaking to watch. It's, you know, Steph Curry was the warriors were playing the Timberwolves and they got stuck there for days because they actually postponed one of the games because it was right after Alex. I think it was the same night that they were supposed to play. And he watched the demonstrations and was just overwhelmed with love. And he that's what he had said. And it is amazing to see the city stand up. You know, we had, we were the first test city here in LA. And, you know, this debate of violence, you're talking about, it's coming from the state. I mean, that's, I think what really upsets people and is really scary. It's not just random violence. It's state, it is state sponsored. And so, yeah, it's, it's been terrifying, but to have both happen on the same day, like you said, it's like this cosmic, I mean, it's all there for our evolution, right? So, you know, where do we go from here? You know, what's what do you know? Where, where is this all lead? Well, lessons abound. I mean, first of all, not for nothing, you know, Mayor Jacob Frye, like not missing words, like really, you know, refreshing as a politician to get up there and just, you know, plainly state what he's observing and what is actually happening, like that takes a lot of courage. So, mad respect to him friend of the pod, friend of the, been on the podcast. Great, right. And I think that there is, you know, a lot to be concerned about. And there's a lot of pain out there right now. What happened is atrocious. It's worthy of talking about. It's, you know, worthy of address. You know, I do think that for someone like myself who who has a relatively large platform that comes with a responsibility. And when you see overreaches of power, there is a, you know, a call to action to speak truth to power. And so it's important for me to do that. But this is an instance in which, you know, clearly, it needs to be said. And certainly, you know, I'm not the only person saying this. Lots of people are saying this. But just in terms of my perspective on this, it's pretty clear that this is a dire situation that we should be all very concerned about this trajectory that our country is on right now. And yet, we can still celebrate Alex Honnold as this rallying point who created this water cooler moment that brought us all together in this unifying experience that reminds us that we share more in common than the differences that divide us. And also, you know, to really take in his message of possibility and hopefulness that if he could do something like that, we can certainly come together to share our, you know, common problems and move forward. Agreed. Should we talk about Peter Athea? Oh, no. I was afraid you're gonna say. And we have to talk about it. We got to talk about it, man. Peter Athea, you know, longevity, medicine, specialist, podcaster, past guest of this podcast. I think it's not news to anybody at this point, because it's everywhere that he is implicated in the Epstein files, I think his name was mentioned over a thousand times. And so all of this has come out, his correspondence with Jeffrey Epstein, his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. And, you know, I just want to state plainly how disappointing this is. I'm upset about it. I'm angry about it. It's unacceptable. And it's incredibly disappointing to receive this news as somebody who knows this person. And look, it's not that hard to refuse associating with a convicted pedophile. It just isn't. And I would have hoped that he was somebody who would have exercised better judgment back then. And really, that is all that needs to be said about this. I have removed his podcast from our archive. I've taken down our social media posts that involve him. And it's just a bummer. Yeah, it's not that hard to not be in the Epstein files. And if my only thing is, I first kind of interface with him, as a media person now, I'd never met him. But my first kind of taste of him was during the COVID pandemic. And he was saying some things that were like that I thought were really smart and thoughtful. And obviously he has that side of him too. But I didn't realize that whole time until this all came out and this reporting has come out, I didn't realize he wasn't a board certified physician. This is the first time I heard about that. So it does call into question kind of for all of us to like, who are we getting our advice from? Where are we getting it? Are we sure this is sound advice? I'm not saying everything he said isn't good. I mean, he's obviously got something, you know, he's done some good. But like, it does make us wonder like if I had known he wasn't a board certified physician, would I have been impressed with his COVID? Like, I don't know. And maybe that shouldn't matter, but like, because I'm not I'm not in the medical field, but hearing it now is kind of like, oh, wow, that too. And so when I, you know, I read his apology and I just I was I didn't fully buy it to be quite honest with you. And so, yeah, I mean, nobody in the files claims to have seen anything bad, right? They all they all have the same similar excuse. So it's unfortunate. To me, I think, okay, what is is there a lesson that we can learn or what do we extract from this that we can reflect on? And and when I, you know, think about this situation, I see it as a pretty classic case of someone who let the a lure or the prospect of proximity to power and wealth and influence like warp is moral compass. You know, this is somebody for whom that was important. And Jeffrey Epstein was a vehicle to that. And because of that, he allowed this to justify overlooking glaring character flaws and, you know, appalling unlawful and ethically bankrupt behavior for the sake of, you know, personal gain or personal, you know, eventual a grandizement. So on that level, it is a morality tale that I think we could take to heart. And I think in the context of the health and well-being and fitness and nutrition, like kind of, you know, quote unquote, influencer space, you know, whether it's fitness information or nutrition guidance or or advice on longevity that you're you're seeking out. You know, there's a lot of different people on the internet who are saying lots of things. Some of them are giving good advice and some of them are sociopathic grifters. And I think, you know, we're all, you know, well advised to kind of calibrate our credulity monitors a little bit. And I say that for myself as well. Like, you know, how can I up level my vetting before having somebody on this show, you know, I think is one message that I'm taking for myself. And, you know, I think Brad Stolberg said it best when he said, you know, you don't you don't need to be a low integrity asshole to be serious about performance. You can be a good person too. And I think there are good people out there doing good work. So yeah, it's left me reflecting upon how I move forward through this, how I message my audience, how I make decisions about who I'm going to, you know, engage in conversation across the table here. And my own vulnerabilities to credulity, you know, like, you know, I think that's worthy of of investigation on on my part. I'm as vulnerable as anybody to being manipulated by charismatic individuals. And so I'm checking myself on that and in doing it my own inventory on this, especially as it pertains to folks in the longevity space, because I think there's a lot of nonsense out there right now. A lot of people who are out over their skis, who are communicating perhaps an unearned degree of certainty regarding their advice and their counsel. Yeah, I mean, it's it's we're all vulnerable to it because we it just is like inherent when you see somebody with a lot of followers and that we think that that they've been vetted. You know what I mean? We think that's a vetting. It's like a default thing where our brain just turns off a certain skepticism that often happens. Now maybe we're more we've seen it enough to where we we have a little bit more skepticism, but certainly when social media was first popping it became oh wow that look, I want to listen to this doctor and then you know, so I think we're all vulnerable to it. And I don't know what if there's an answer like, you know, we can't we can't fully know right? We can't fully know and some of this stuff gets revealed over the arc of someone's career and he's certainly not alone in in somebody showing up in those files that we are shocked by he's not and so and he's not the worst offender. And so by a long shot. So it's just this crazy cascade. But like you said, it's a lesson for us all to like, you know, the more certain you are of your beliefs tends to be like the real scientists are never sure their beliefs. And so that's something that I think we should all take to heart is like is like we shouldn't be so sure of basically almost anything now, you know, unless it's like a law of physics. At some point we have to leave some space for us to know that what we're hearing isn't 100% true and the person who's telling it to us is someone to take with a little more skepticism. Well said. This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace is the all-in-one website platform designed to help you stand out and succeed online. There is this gap. I think we all experience the gap between having something to offer on the one hand and actually getting out into the world on the other hand. And what lives in that gap isn't usually talent or vision. It's the operational stuff, the website, the payments, the logistics and the friction of not knowing how to figure any of that stuff out. Well, that's where Squarespace comes in. 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A lot of people are asking me about how my recovery from my spinal fusion surgery is going. So just really quickly, I just eclipsed nine months. The surgery was May 8th, where now we're recording this on February. What is it? The ninth today, the tenth. So a couple days past nine months. At six months, I got the green light to start a very, very low-key modest exercise routine. And I've sort of built on that very gradually. So for context, in mid-November, I had ballooned up to 207 pounds, which is a lot for me. That's almost as much as I weighed pre-kind of life transformation at 40. I think I was like 210 to 15 around that time. And what was amazing is how much it snuck up on me. I didn't even realize I was gaining weight. Obviously, I wasn't being physically active. And I had the big beard and the whole thing. And I was walking. And I knew I was like getting out of shape and getting a little puffy or whatever. But then I bought one of those body composition scales. Like when it to celebrate like six months. And I was like, oh, now I'm going to really hold myself accountable and get on track. And it was kind of shocking to realize how much weight I gained. But I've lost 30 pounds of it. I'm down to like 177 now and kind of stabilize there. My weight is remaining the same. But my body fat percentage is going down. And my lean muscle mass is going up while I stay at this same weight, which feels really good. So basically, just been on that indoor bike trainer alternating that with days of functional fitness, like light lifting, kind of like dynamic exercises in this little home gym that I have. And that's been working good. And it feels really good to like reconnect with my physical body. And remember, like, oh, this is what I loved about this because there was a moment there where, you know, I'm working on this book and I'm walking around the house in a bathroom with this big beard. I looked in the mirror. I was like, what are you going to be Julian Schnabel now? Like, what is going on? You know, I was like, you're Malibu Grant. You still have some youth in you. You know, like, you don't have to descend into like, you know, the pot belly, you know, like writer. Anyway, nice to know that I can still drop a little bit of weight and I mean, just I just got really rigorous with my with my nutrition. I basically just got really binary with it. Like I basically eat the same thing every day. Like I eat a big bowl black means. That's it. And then this salad that I get at Airwine is called the, I think it's called the Thai tofu salad. So just like tofu lettuce, bunch of veggies in it, carrots and stuff like that. And so I'm just I'm modestly calorie restricting. But not no. And the main thing is like I cut out like all bread and pasta like any kind of any kind of like refined grains. Like that's a big one. And I cut out like late night snacking and eating and just like by adhering to that and not and keeping things really simple. Just progressively it's it's been working, which is good. So I'm starting to feel a little bit of vitality come back into my body. I saw a long way to go like I have, you know, tightness and discomfort in my lower back like the fusion doesn't fully set for 12 to 18 months. So I have to be very careful. And so even as I start to get a little bit more fit, I have to hold myself back. And because I'm writing this book, I have these other rules around my gym time. So I would I generally wake up at like 345 or 4 in the morning. And I just get a cup of coffee. I go right into the gym and I restrict my workout to one hour because I've got to get to the page, you know, or I've got a prep for the days podcast because left to my own devices, I'll just be in the gym for hours. But a lot of it is me like on my phone or something like that. So I leave my phone out of the gym. I set a timer and I go in there and I hold myself to that so that I'm not overextending myself. And I still have like good energy when I go right into like focused deep work mode after that. And it's been fun. It's required a tremendous amount of patience. But it's also allowed me to focus on a the gratitude of being able to do this again after not being able to do it, which has brought a lot more joy into it. I think in the past, a big part of my relationship with fitness has been so focused on performance goals or, you know, trying to achieve something so that I can be perceived in a certain way. And that has created at times a bit of an unhealthy or less joyous experience of it. I still love it, but not always doing it for the right reasons. And I'm really focused on doing it for the nourishing aspects of it because I love it not necessarily because it's tied to some kind of performance goal. I need those goals to progress my way forward. But I'm not so tied to them in like an identity defining way as I have been in the past, which which allows me to kind of have a more relaxed relationship with it that has been new, different, fun, and hopefully, you know, demonstrate some level of like personal growth on my part. And this opportunity, I've said this before, to rebuild my body from the ground up, like what a gift like, okay, you have to start over from zero. You got to wipe the slate clean, tobluraza. What would you do if you had to relearn like how to hold your body position upright, your posture? What is what is proper walking form look like, you know, forget about running? Like what does it mean to, you know, do a standing lunge with perfect technique? And because I'm not in a rush and because I'm so limited in what I'm allowed to do right now, it's allowed me to really hone in and focus on those little details to build very slowly this brand new foundation that hopefully, you know, will be very sturdy for longevity reasons like going down the line, you know, like building on top of something that's very stable rather than just like, let's just start running again, you know, forget about like warming up or like all these things that I've done, all the mistakes that I've made in the past that you can get away with when you're younger, that I no longer can afford, but that like all things opens the door to possibility and opportunities. And so like, okay, let's do it right for once, you know, and see what happens that way. And that's been a fun kind of like construction project. You know, so funny, I can relate to so much of that. I was joking last year with you not on there that like that your back that your back injury was contagious because I had the craziest injury year last year. Not to bore the audience with my little injuries, but I had so many different things, some more significant than others. And this year I'm doing the same thing, like I was trying to reach a certain goal with like weights towards the end of last year. Now I'm just going to do the lightest weights where I can feel my actual shoulders working, where I could feel the right muscle working for the right exercise. I'm rebuilding like now I look at my low back, my hernia disc flare up and I think of it as like a great wake up call to finally get my upper back going so that I'm holding myself appropriately. I can finally swim feeling my actual shoulders working, not the joint, but I was putting all the pressure on my joint. And so I wasn't swimming correctly for like my entire life. And so I can relate to so much of that. And that seems like to be the kind of a call for us as we can, if we want to continue to stay active, you know, as we get older and older. Like it's interesting, it's hard to do that. You have to be forced to do that. And like I was forced to do it. Now this year I'm looking at this year, I'm not making any fitness goals. I just want to be able to, you know, stay contained and build on this and just get like start doing light stuff and modest advancement over the course of the year and hopefully just stay healthy like as my goal now. And it's, but you're right. When you take the pressure off it, it gives you more time to work and it gives you more time to just enjoy the actual process of it 100%. Yeah. There is this pattern in the supplement space. The moment something works, everyone washes in, quality drops, and suddenly everything is this huge marketing drift instead of about what's actually in the product. And that's because supplements are a low trust category. 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A few years ago, there was this guy, his name's Jo Chura, and he called me up out of the blue and asked if I would speak at this event that he was hosting in Illinois called Go, which turned out to be this incredibly memorable weekend for me and for all of the attendees because it was all about how to take inspired action. Jo and I connected, but you know, life moved on, that was many years ago. Then a couple years back when I was at Jesse Isler's running man event in Georgia, I'm walking the grounds when I see Jo. I was surprised to see him again, of course, sort of a different context, but also surprised because he had actually taken inspired action. I shouldn't have been surprised knowing Jo, but I guess I was in the moment. What he did was he took this idea of Go and he turned it into the hottest new brand in Don Alcoholic Beer called, of course, Go Brewing. What sets Go Brewing apart is their refusal to cut corners. Everything is handcrafted from scratch and small batches. This commitment to quality has propelled Go Brewing into one of America's fastest growing breweries, now in over 5,000 locations across 20 states. Their salty AF Chalada claimed the untapped number one non-alcoholic logger spot in America. They're constantly dropping all these bold new flavors, double IPAs, incredible sours, all without added sugars or any artificial nonsense. The non-alcoholic revolution isn't coming, it's here people and I'm really honored to be championing it with Jo. So get on board by getting with Go by going to gobrewing.com where you're going to use the code Rich Roll for 15% off your first purchase. That's gobrewing.com code Rich Roll. Let's turn to some listener questions. Okay. These are questions you put the call out on Instagram and these are some that came back. Awesome. First, listen to question. What all hopes seems to be lost? What is the constant reminder or quote you keep telling yourself? I mean, that's a dark space. If you're in that headspace where you feel like all hope seems to be lost, that's a dark hole. It's hard to dig yourself out of it and there's no platitude that's going to snap you out of it. But when I found myself in those darker moments, there are a couple I think hopefully helpful things that I can share about how to process that experience, think about it and slowly claw your way out. And the first is, and all of this I should say upfront, like almost all of it germinates from my experience in recovery in the recovery community, which is a community that has no shortage of quips and phrases and bumper sticker sentences for situations like this. Not the least of which is this too shall pass. Basically, that is the app for this. Yeah, I mean, AA invented it, but it's one that gets bandied around in the room quite frequently, which is essentially a reminder that no matter what you're experiencing, like you will not be stuck there, no matter what. Even if you do nothing and just sit in it, it will pass because everything is always in flux at all times. And we have this irrational perception of permanence in our lives, like we just think we are who we are and we're going to look the way we look and our lives are going to be the same forever more. And that's not how subatomic particles work. That's not how the universe works. There is nothing in the universe from the largest stars and solar systems and galaxies all the way down to subatomic particles that is ever static. Everything is always in motion constantly. And so whatever your experience, whatever you're experiencing, it will change. And within that, I think there is room to then understand if that's true, then there is always the possibility for hope, no matter how far down you have fallen, like there is always the possibility for hope and a way to see yourself through it. And so when I think about this conundrum, again, I'm always thinking like what is the growth opportunity or what is the learning opportunity of this particular dark moment or hardship that I'm experiencing? And it's sort of convenient to say this, but I do believe it's true. Everything that happens to you, especially these negative things, is designed, bespoke for your growth and evolution. And can be this really powerful change agent if you decide it to be. So when you're in the muck, generally, it's because you have participated on some level in creating the muck. And these situations are always beckoning you to look at something about yourself that you'd rather not. At least that's how it's always been for me. And so the question then becomes like if there's a reminder or another kind of like phrase to turn to, it's how did I you know, help create the situation? What is my part in giving rise to the situation that I'm in right now? Because the job is to understand the behavior that led you to this place, to own that, and then to make amends for how it impacted others, another big AA thing, how it impacted others negatively. And then to figure out how to change your behavior, modify it, going forward to figure out a more, you know, positive response to a particular stimulus or set of circumstances, or way in which you respond or react to, you know, something that happens in your life. So boiling this down to the 12 steps, it maps on pretty seamlessly. Like step four is the inventory. This is where you're really doing a thorough and fearless kind of objective forensic analysis of your behavior. Like how do I, how did I get here? Well, you know, this is how I behave in these situations, getting really honest with yourself. Step nine is the amends. Well, this behavior, you know, created all this chaos and harm these other people in this way. I need to make that right. It's not an apology. Like how can I serve these other individuals and modify my behavior? So, A, I don't behave this way again, and I can do whatever I can do to kind of undo whatever harm that I created. And then step 10 is the daily inventory. Like this is a daily practice. So that you're in the habit of this analysis amends and kind of, you know, honest accounting of your behavior in advance of finding yourself in these, like relatively dark holes or hopeless spots so that you can kind of course correct before they become too dire. And beyond that, like I'm sympathetic to anybody who's who's in that, you know, situation or state of affairs, I've been there myself. And if you're in it again, like these words are probably not going to be that helpful because when you're in it, there's a sense of paralysis. We've talked about this Adam, like when things are so hard, when somebody says, well, you just have to do this one thing or this other thing, like you just, you just can't, like you can't summon the will to do it. Right. So when you're in that state, like when you, or you're in a situation where you just don't know what the next right thing is for you to do to claw your way out of it, my go to reflex, it's always the same, is pretty simple. You just reach out and help somebody else. Even if you feel like you're at your lowest moment, to pick up the phone, call somebody you know who's having a hard time, it just has to be something simple. It doesn't have to be a big dramatic overture because, and the reason for this is that it is the antidote to self obsession. It will take you out of your like frame of mind that is so focused on your problem and your world. And by investing yourself in somebody else's, it's not only curative, like it's like this, it's like this self, like suddenly you're not obsessing on yourself and your problem. Like that in and of itself, ameliorates the pain of whatever situation you're navigating at the time. And because self obsession is really the default stance when you are being dismantled. So if your life's falling apart, everything's going to shit or whatever, you're going to stew in it and just be thinking about yourself all the time and how you're going to solve this problem and how terrible it is and why it's unfair and all of these things, none of which are helpful. Even when you don't know what the next step is to rebuild or reassemble these pieces that are now kind of, you know, displayed out in your fractured life just by investing yourself in somebody else, curative of that self obsession, it allows your unconscious mind to work on that problem. And it lowers the anxiety and the fear impulse and all of these other psychological defense mechanisms that actually aren't serving to help you or to solve the problem. And it's incredibly inspiring. I mean, it's like it's two things you said there that that I can relate to the first. You said this too shall pass. I remember when I was going through my divorce, it was kind of like my midlife crisis. It was very painful and I felt I was wronged and I felt humiliated and I felt all the things. And because this was a marriage that hadn't even been a year, you know, so I felt like all this kind of-- I'd been rare. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it just felt like all things were unraveling. And I was at dinner with a friend and my friend Bruce kind of looked at me, he goes, you know, in 10 years, this whole thing's going to be a blip, just a blip. And it felt like such-- I would felt like I was under a boulder and the idea of it being a pebble, like I was like, yeah, sure did. You might say that, but Annie was 100% right. It's been over 10 years now. And it was a blip, but man, was it heavy at the time? And now I consider it a total blip. And I don't even know, like I guess the what happened hasn't changed. My relationship to it has changed to the point where I don't feel victimized at all. And so it's like my entire perception has shifted. So it's not just that the incident is smaller. It's that my understanding of it is completely morphed through time. And so like it's not just that it passes. It's like your relationship to the events completely change. And that's hard to remember while it's painful. It's very hard and most of most people can't. And it doesn't really matter. You just have to survive the day. But I think that that really resonates. And then in terms of service, I meant years ago I was down at the border doing some stories. And this was at the time where asylum cases were in like Mexico and waiting. And so they were like, this was-- I think it was Nagala. It was outside Tucson. I was down at the border. And I went to this one place that offered one meal a day to all the asylum cases. And so for many of them, that was their only meal. They were going to eat that day. But it was being-- Tucson volunteers were coming to serve it. So it was like Green goes from north of the border were coming to put the meals out. And then it was all migrants from all over the world that happened to come through-- that were waiting on the southern border. And of all the people lined up, there was one guy that was out there sweeping the sidewalk in the street. And he wasn't just waiting in line. He was sweeping the sidewalk in the street. This is in Mexico sweeping the street. And he was a Honduran immigrant whose family was in the United States now. And Honduras at that time was falling apart. It was like a narco state. We know that, right? It's been famously detailed. And it was extremely unsafe. And it was basically a failed-- almost a failed state. And so that's why a lot of Hondurans were coming here. And so he was there. And he was basically-- he couldn't do anything. He couldn't work in Mexico. He didn't have money. He was in this line for the handout lunch. But he was sweeping the sidewalk in the street. And then when we went in, he wasn't just waiting to be served. He was wiping down the tables. He was-- he wasn't just sitting there and taking the meal. He wanted to be a part of it. And then when it came time to say a prayer, guess who spoke up. And it's just so interesting because I'll never forget that. It was extremely inspiring. I remember talking to other people about it. It was always inspired. Everybody I talked to, it's extremely inspiring. And it's a great example of the service idea of someone who is in a situation he could not control. And so he chose to be an active participant. It's hard to do, man. One person out of the whole group that I saw do with that. It's not easy what you're saying. It's not easy. But if you can pull it off, there's so much power in it. So inspiring. It's a beautiful story. Cool. All right. Let's do the next one. For those who are all or nothing is a middle ground possible in health and nutrition. No, it's impossible. Sorry. Either you're just all or nothing. All in or completely out. What about me makes you think all or nothing? I am like the least all or nothing person ever. I am an all or nothing person. But you know, I've grown a little bit. I would say that I'm evidence of somebody who is slowly getting used to not being an all or nothing person. You've been all and you've been nothing a couple of different times. You go back and forth. You know, take the high with the low pendulum. Yeah. It's exciting. You know, that's the thing when you get sober and you're like, well, everything's just kind of like the curve. The curve gets flattened and you're like, yeah, it's all boring. You're like really out at the end of good pass. It's like, I'll take those lows for the highs and all of that. So I get that. I am as prone to extremes as anybody for those of you who relate to that. You know that not only is it, like I said, exciting. It's dopamine and nirgic. It's very energizing. It's a productive form of energy that drives life results. There's no question about it. But like all superpowers, they have their kryptonite. And I think for the all the all in kind of personality, it can be quite destructive. If you don't check it at the very best, it's going to lead you in the direction of burnout. But you know, it can also be completely ruinous because it runs roughshod over everything else in your life. So if you are an extreme personality, congratulations. It is, it is something that you can leverage for good, you know, and it can be a very powerful animating life force that can, you know, drive you to achieve great things. But it has to be properly harnessed and deployed in strategic doses that make room for recovery, room to nourish yourself and to make sure that you are attending to the other things in your life that are important. Because if you don't do that, your whole life is going to implode ultimately. Like there is this dark side of the extreme personality archetype. And I think what's also instructive or perhaps hopefully valuable is trying to understand what is beneath that archetype. Like what is driving that proclivity to just go all out like, you know, pedal of the metal like all the time. And if you really deconstruct it, it's generally being driven by an imposter syndrome, a profound sense of unworthiness, low self-esteem, this like deep-seated need to like prove yourself to earn acceptance or love. Because without it or without what it gets you, you are like, and I know this I'm saying this personally, like there's a sense of not deserving love. Like you have to earn it. You have to go out and do these things and like apply your extreme personality trait to achieve things to show the world improved to yourself that you are worthy of breathing air and deserving of being accepted and loved by other people. So obviously that's a sort of broken psychological state. Essentially, what I'm saying is that a lot of extreme behavior is being driven or underscored by fear. And I think once you realize this, it becomes incumbent upon you to try to figure out how to understand that impulse within yourself at first, learning how to like channel it at the right time and quell it when it's leading your life astray. But ultimately the job is to figure out how you're going to heal it. And that's scary because it's like asking somebody to, you know, shirk their superpower like, hey, this superpower, this thing that you're so attached to that you've crafted an entire identity around like, I'm the all in person. I go hard and like, you know, I go all day or I can outwork everybody in the room. This gets intertwined into your identity. And then the prospect of like letting it go or just entangling yourself from it feels like a threat. Yeah, like you're not going to want to do that, right? Because if you don't have that, then you're not going to be able to like achieve your goals or pursue your dreams. So and beyond that, it's like it also gets into your how you view yourself when you look in the mirror. Right. Who am I if I'm not the person who does that, you know, who operates this way? And that's a threat. But, you know, this is a process that I would say that I'm in. And I think there's liberation on the other side of that, you know, because once you realize like, hey, you know, maybe you're not an imposter or maybe you're not completely, you know, useless or unlovable. You know, there's there's a there's a self-love, you know, loving kindness, kind of compassion. And that that will lead to, you know, becoming a healthier, more, more fully-actualized, you know, human being. And it also requires that you deconstruct this perfectionism myth. You know, I think if you're striving to these extremes, you are wet on some level to this idea that, you know, perhaps you can be perfect or there is this perfection that you're that you're chasing. And that's a recipe for unhappiness. Like, you're never going to achieve that. You're setting yourself up for a life of frustration and discontent. I was listening when I was on my long drive the other day to a podcast with David Sanra's podcast who hosts the founders podcast. And he's like, he's such, he's so good at podcasting. And he's kind of obsessed with the people who are the best in the world at something. And he was reviewing Andre Agassiz memoir open. And he does such a great job of like kind of deconstructing like these life lessons out of this book Sanra does. But there's this part in that incredible memoir where Andre Agassiz is, you know, losing all the time. And he's miserable. He hates tennis. But he brings Brad Gilbert into the equation to become his coach. And Brad's the guy who's like, you've got to let go of this perfectionism. You go out onto the court and every shot you want it to be like the perfect shot. You're trying to be perfect in every volume. And he's like, you don't have to be perfect. You just have to beat this guy. And you're so much better than this guy. If you would just release that attachment to perfectionism and just hit the ball and play tennis, you're going to win like almost every time. And it wasn't until he could kind of grok that and really release his relationship with perfectionism that he was able to begin not only winning again, but enjoying tennis. And this becomes a big piece in his equation for curing himself of his dissatisfaction with life. And then of course, service becomes this huge piece like, you know, he realizes that that's really the only thing that's important that gives his life meaning, which goes back to the importance of just abusing ourselves of our self obsession through simple acts of service to other people. But I just thought that was so interesting that somebody who was so good at what he does the best in the world, Andre Agassi is in this process of constant self-flagilation. And I think a lot of extreme personality tendencies emanate from that place. Like I have to go harder than everyone else and prove, you know, to others into myself that I can do this thing. Because it's almost a martyrdom practice. It is a means of self-flagilation that ultimately becomes unhealthy. And fundamentally, on the identity piece, it's just a story. I'm the guy who works in, I'm the guy who does that. This is who I am or whatever. And it's not real. You know, you've just decided that it's real. And you have the power to rewrite that narrative. And I'm not saying it's easy. Because I'm like I said, like I'm kind of in this process right now. So I'll keep it posted. Which is interesting because like you're very generous to, I mean, like, you don't expect that kind of all or nothing from the people that you work with, you don't expect from your kid. You're not like that to anybody but yourself, right? And that also is, I think, a hallmark for this all or nothing thing. Most of it is just inwardly projected. Not necessarily outward. I guess it can be. But like, and so I just find that. I just wanted to flag that for you. What do you think about? No, I don't expect, I don't, I don't layer that template on anyone else and expect them to, you know, kind of pursue things, you know, in the way that I do or have, you know, like, I don't think it's the, you know, a great way. Like I was with, I was with Malcolm Gladwell a couple of weeks ago. And we're talking and he looks at me and he goes, the thing about you is you always have to do it with the hard way. He says that to you. Yeah, he goes, you always have to make it the hardest thing, you know, it's like, you know, the diet and the ultra, like all the, and the swimming and the, you know, like, it's like, why are you making it all so hard? And I was like, I don't know, it's a pretty good, that's a good question. I can't help it. Yeah. So then, so then you don't have to be all or nothing. What's the, if you could just give one or two piece of advice, how do you find the middle? How do you orient towards the middle? What would be your, your advice there? I think just giving yourself permission to not be perfect and to not self-flagulate for falling short of some imagined standard that you're setting for yourself, that you have invested, you know, the stakes of your identity in and just being a little bit more gentle with yourself. And I think this surgery recovery process has been really nourishing and instructive in this process for me because I'm not under any illusion that I'm trying to get back to becoming the person I was before the athlete or whoever it is. I'm interested in, you know, who I can become as a, as a, as a direct result of being forced to sit still and like, marinate in my, you know, inadequacies and find a way to have compassion for myself and figure out a way forward that is nourishing but detached from identity stakes, you know what I mean? And so finding that middle ground is about giving yourself permission with compassion to not have to live up to some imaginary standard because your self-worth is, is on the line. I, the only thing I add to that is the conception of self can also change. And if you think of yourself, not just this contained being born here, living there, doing this, not doing that, if you think of it more in an expansive way, is that I am energy here on earth. And you know, if you start to go into mindfulness, if you start to get into meditation, even if you sit for five minutes a day in a beautiful place on a park bench, or in your house, five or ten minutes a day, you start to, to, that can start to be untangled. And then really what you are is how you, is, is more than just your self-contained personality. It's more than what you like and don't like. It's more than what you want to do, what you've done and haven't done. It's so much bigger. And so if we can connect, in which you've talked about so many times, if you can connect to that higher consciousness also at the same time, then you'll find all the rest of it is almost minuscule. And you can feel more relaxed in, in, in staying in this middle balance place. It's, it's, it can really recharge your life in an entirely different way. Yeah. And like whatever you're going through is unlikely to be something that gets brought up at your memorial after you pass for, for, perspective. Yeah. Unless you're climbing type A 101, but maybe, maybe, maybe, yeah, that, that's an exception. All right. One more question. All right. Best advice to change a 37 year career that has you burned out. That's a tailor-made, ritual question. Yeah. It's a little tricky because it's unclear whether this career was something that was unfulfilling all along or whether it was fulfilling, but now after 37 years, this person has burned out. So, you know, with that in mind, it's, it's difficult to, you know, kind of know which bread to pull on here. I mean, listen, there's a couple things you can do. I mean, you can quit. You can. I know the circumstances of this person's life, but life is short. And if you are that burned out and that unhappy, that is always a possibility. I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not even saying it's the right thing for you to do or rational and, you know, we all have responsibilities and mouths to feed and bills to pay and all the likes. So I don't say that cavalierly. In most instances, that is not the solution. My best suggestion is to invest in your curiosity. You can stay in this career without quitting it. Perhaps you can ameliorate the burn out or find, you know, meaning and other aspects of your life that like serves as a buffer for whatever you're experiencing in your career. So this is not to say just well quit your job and, you know, go pursue your passion. But I think for those that are feeling a lack of direction or a little bit of confusion as to what to do next at a certain stage of life, my go to kind of default move is always to pivot to curiosity. Where does your curiosity naturally gravitate towards and not judging it, but making the choice to follow it without judging it like, oh, maybe it's something you always wanted to do that you never gave yourself permission to do. It could be a simple fun little, you know, hobby that you spend a half an hour a week on or something like that. But I think saying yes to that. Once you start developing the muscle memory and the habit of that yes and really carving time out of your day to whether it's journal or some other kind of mindfulness practice to really hone your attention on your curiosity and take inventory of what it's trying to tell you or where it's trying to lead you and honoring that as a sacred practice that will lead you to other opportunities and other opportunities from that and so on and so on to create a domino effect that will eventually almost guaranteed set you on a trajectory that will lead you to some place where you're going to find some kind of meaning maybe it's a job. It's not necessarily a new job or a new career but something that will provide your life with the meaning that your career is not able to do for you and it's really as simple as that I think. I think the other point and we were discussing this question before the podcast is if it is a situation in which you've been in this career for 37 years and you've never liked it. Right. Like not for nothing like maybe we need to have a conversation about your relationship with healthy confrontation like how have you allowed yourself to stay in a situation for for nearly four decades that was not nourishing to you and again there's real life circumstances that come into play here like sometimes you suck it up and you do this thing that you don't really like doing because you're responsible for other people and I'm not so I'm not you know dismissing that in any way but I think there is something to be learned by reflecting on that question a little bit like you know what is it inside of you that made it okay for you to live you know a gigantic chunk of your life in a in a substandard situation that was you know that left you burned out and and and feeling more empty then perhaps you thought you would after spending 37 years doing a certain thing yeah healthy confrontation what can you do to adjust that or address that and how can you overcome whatever personality default trait or you know kind of reflexive decision making strategy that you have that you know landed you there and that goes back to kind of the step for inventory like you need to inventory your decision making your behavior your avoidant tendencies you know all of these things that contribute to create over time contribute to creating this life that you're experiencing now that's interesting healthy confrontation I never heard that phrase before I have a problem with basically all confrontation healthy and unhealthy so I feel I if this person it's better I get it I've been able to like figure out a way to live a life that is meaningful and kind of self-actualized regardless of that somehow dodging well dodging confrontation all along I think I think it's because I I know had a build rapport and so my rapport my building of rapport has allowed me to dodge the confrontation you're political animal is that what it is yeah I don't know I'm revealing too much here um I think that's that's very well said the curiosity piece is always like well that comes into play here as well yeah getting curious about you know what led you to this place and getting curious about what what you know another chapter might look like for you yeah and then also just being curious about something you always want to follow either either however you end it up here that also helps and yeah the big piece here and it's not unrelated to the service idea is trying to find something that is a that is bigger than yourself you know and this often gets couched in like a mission like what's your mission you know it's like Scott Harrison he's gonna like solve the global water clean water crisis like you know there's there's there's there's there's grand divisions like that but it doesn't have to be that big it just has to be about something that is contribute to beyond like your personal look grandisement so I can't just be like I need I need more money I need a bigger salary or I need a corner office or something like that it's like what are you actually doing with your limited time on earth that is additive in a way that is you know benefiting you know a cause other people or something else that is larger than your personal concerns in your life yeah beautiful stuff because if you could find that or you can just even if it's just like you won't always want to play guitar and you never allowed yourself to do it and you pick it up and you spend 15 minutes a day doing it it's like that love can just inspire where the burnout had left you you know I could fill that burnout space and even if it just makes you happy yeah then you're then you're a happier person and then your interactions with other people are better and then that sets in motion you know a series of a chain reaction of events that you know is is very gradually but but you know most certainly moving your life in a different and better direction 100 percent all right we did it that's it for roll on today all right we're done dude that's it okay promise we would land this plane under 90 minutes we got there we got it all right we'll be back soon with more thank you my friend thanks man good to hear cheers peace that's it for today thank you for listening I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation to learn more about today's guests including links and resources related to everything discussed today visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive my books finding ultra voicing change in the plant power way if you'd like to support the podcast the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on apple podcasts on Spotify and on youtube and leave a review and or comment and sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful this show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild and free to check out all their amazing offers 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