The greatest win in Welsh rugby history?

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All their delectable pies are made with no high fructose corn syrup. Gourmet Thanksgiving Flavors with the quality you want, only at Whole Foods Market. Welcome to Rugby Union Weekly. We are still in the principality stadium. Wales have still beaten New Zealand. 1905, 1935, 1953, 2026, 73 years of hurt. You will have been hearing that so many times by the moment that you listen to me say this. But what a Rugby Union Weekly we have coming to you right now. And I have two very smiley Welshmen with me. Alex, Kasper and James Hurt, you just beat New Zealand. That is unbelievable. I have not seen the stadium, Kathy, you'll be the same. Like that, bouncing for deckers and deckers. I think it was just because nobody gave us a hope. Everyone was saying 30, 40 points they're going to lose by 50 points some people. And just turned around and the way they performed. One to 200. Was that what it was? One to 200. So you have to put 200 quits to win a pound and just I don't think I've ever seen a defence display inside or on your own goal line. Like that ever again. James both of them is just rewitting how you defend on the line, is that okay? Three balls held up on the line, plum tree, both of them, Dan Edwards. And we talk about Sean Edwards, you're a defence star. Got Thomas, got Thomas. Yeah, got Thomas. Four on the track. I remember I've lost count. For Peter Merch, he's going to take a huge amount of credit. Dan Lydian as well. How can I just say these two, they're on either side of me here. And I think I could let you to go this whole pod without me interrupting. I will. I'm sorry. I don't blame you. If anyone for any reason didn't watch this fixture, where were you? What were you doing? Oh my goodness. It finished Wales 35, New Zealand 28. And the last basically half an hour we looked off to our right hand side where Wales defended for their lives, solidly, on their own line. The only time we looked left was in the last three minutes when all of a sudden the ball went down the other end and Wales held on to the ball for absolute dear life. For this incredible historic moment, can you just both put into some kind of context what this victory actually means for the Welsh fans and for Welsh rugby, James Erick? It's so difficult to put into words because it means so much. I think myself and Cathy have been watching Wales now, particularly the last 5, 10 years. The lows of Welsh rugby, particularly the last two or three years, it's a huge shot in the arm. It just gives these boys so much confidence to know what they can do now going forward. The rest of the ornament and the last ones are six nations and beyond. It feels like just a new year is arising for these young players. I think it goes even further. I just spoke then I think how good it is for the boys, the squad, rugby, but I think take away rugby. Look, what it is in Wales, Hockey, to beat the all blacks. The last time they beat what was it, 1953, how many great teams players have tried and not been able to do it? It's scary. And I include the teams that you guys have played for that. Yeah, Garof Edwards. Is that their watching? Yeah. I mean, I've never seen so many people in tears and even where I went now I was still crying and I don't think I've ever had that sort of emotion and we've won Grand Slam championships like that. That was on another level. Yeah. I've only just stopped shaking. This is what we're 30, 40 minutes. Post match now. So imagine what the players are feeling. That last five minutes when Blair Murray kicked that ball from the 22, relieved that pressure. The row and then when Ruben Morgan Williams kicked the ball out, like honestly I got goosebumps now thinking about it. Incredible. We will talk about the celebrations on Westgate Street which by the way have already started and I think this might be one of the most profitable nights that Westgate Street has had in a long, long time. You've already told me, James, that you're going to delay leaving tonight, aren't you? I am. No, I'm not. I was touching all those things. I think it's just been mind-upped now. I'm just a fly home tomorrow morning. I've cancelled that flight. No, no, no, no. I've got the phone call now and my wife's here and I'll see you in a couple of days. Right then. I think it's only right. We're on the captain today who again put an incredible performance. Here is the Welsh captain, Dowie Lake, speaking to Laura Jane Jones. Dowie Lake, not a dry eye in the house. Did we shut a little tear at the end then? Yeah, I did. Not too dissimilar from when we beat them in 20s, although I'm not going to cry in the interview this time. Go on, do it. Look, boys were a car today. I said earlier in the week we had a lot to put right from last week, performance wise. I know it wasn't perfect at times today. It wasn't. But the trust we've got in this group, the care we have for each other, it goes a long way. Dowie, you say it wasn't perfect, but let's deal with it in the two halves. First half, attacking Rugby all the way. How do you come out of the blocks like that? We said all week we were going to fire a shot, we were going to attack them. I think it's the only way to play the old black sometimes. You know, we probably flipped it back to 12 months ago, we're in the first half, we did attack them second half. We didn't and that's ultimately where we fell. It was big emphasis on it for us coming out and posing ourselves on the game. I think we did it today. You certainly did, Dearylake. Congratulations. You're the first captain to beat New Zealand in a Wales jersey since 1953. Thank you very much. Incredible words there by Dowie, like even going as far to say it wasn't perfect. I can tell you every Welsh fan said, I don't care what that look like, who cares? The result is the result, but let's just talk about Dowie, Lake and the performance that he put in. He had to go for an HIA, he came back on, but just his steeliness and how he is leading this side now. So many people were thinking after Alan Wyn Jones had gone, who was going to step up and lead this side? What a leader. You could see in his eyes when he walked up the tunnel as well at the start of the game. He was well up for this game and you mentioned his interview as well. He beat the New Zealand under 20s at that level as well. So they believed, nobody else gave this Welsh team a hope. He was just that 23 players and coaching staff. Nobody else in the stadium gave him a hope, and I think that's why he was so emotional. The atmosphere at the end was something I've never, ever experienced. Yeah, I think Dearylake, the way he is captain in this team, in obviously absolute turmoil, whether it's his club, Osweiser IV or Wales, when it was 18 straight losses. I think being in an environment where he was, I think you've got to give credit to other captains in past Alan Wyn Jones. You know, being in that environment, the Osweiser, he's obviously picked up an awful lot because not many people get chosen captain and rise to the occasion. We see it in cricket, don't we? You know, like, so you could go, Joe Rueck was captain and his stats went down. And you know, the pressure is different, pressure isn't a hooky. I was never captain because I would have probably just folded, but a guy like Dearylake seems to just rise to the occasion and that if you look at his last 10, 15 games to where? They're nearly, man, he's so on it every time and then he's on it in the weekend interviews and I'm not sure if it's all right. You've probably interviewed him a few times, but he speaks really well. It's all about the team, never about him, isn't it? He's an incredible figure and so much has been talked about in the media already about the move. He's made out of Wales into Gloucester, how he has led Gloucester in the prime this season, how much experience he's getting, not just from being a Gloucester and how well they're going, but from that leadership position which suits him so well. And I just really hope and the biggest thing in all of this is you just really want this to be the line in the sand that we now look upwards for Welsh Rugby and everyone gets behind this team. Our five live production staff who were listening to the commentary have already said they were monitoring ticket sales for the Australia game and apparently they are taking up very nicely all of a sudden because let us not forget when we started commentary Alex Cuthbert on five live, this is a 74 capacity stadium. The confirmed attendance was 55,152 and that is for an all black match against Wales, they're not giving away but selling tickets for 20 pounds, 20 pounds, can you imagine if that's what you spent on that ticket to witness history today, that's the best bargain. You remember back in the day, okay, when we played New Zealand, we were getting people knocked on the door and if you don't expect it, you couldn't get a ticket, now they're giving them away but yeah I think hopefully that will start to change, that's the effect this result will have I think. Let's talk about the match itself, just a few statistics to throw at you, tackles made by New Zealand 122 tackles made by Wales. 310, possession 65% New Zealand, territory 63% New Zealand, carries 258 New Zealand to Wells 119. I could go on. Let's talk about defence, let's talk about James both in particular. He was the player of the match today. He did some wondrous things. He did. He did. It just shows you just back to that. It just shows you in sport. Nothing is a foregone conclusion. No matter what people thought when they arrived here today. But yeah, that defensive effort, I think, both of them, it's difficult to pick one player out because I thought Eddie James had his best game in the Wells Jews. He's both sides of the ball defensively. That last half an hour, everyone was just scrambling to make tackles, cover tackles, holding the ball up over the line and New Zealand were coming. They kept coming. You know, CTD lacke, I kept coming at Wales but they just didn't have any answers in the end. And it's interesting to see off either Wells players walking around the pitch going applauded and then just watching the New Zealand players, just in wins and tools, just lossful words, just can't quite believe it, absolutely shell shocked. Yeah, they will be in that change when thinking, how and earth have we not won that game? Because in theory, if you looked at the stats, you think, oh my god, it must be 50, 60 points. But the heart, I thought every time they held the ball, it just gave way so much energy. The crowd, it was just, it was just building, I'm building, I'm building, and in the end, I felt like New Zealand just lost their shake completely. They were going to want to, they literally suck a punch themselves. They went so hard, you know, in that first sort of between 45 and 55 and they just had nothing left today. And so glad you said that because under this Dave Renny regime, it has all been about this beautiful flowing rugby, the expectation of what all New Zealand rugby fans want to see from their side. It was completely lacking today and New Zealand will be waking up to this result that their side have lost to Wales ranked 10th in the world. But when they watch it back, they're going to be so disappointed. That is not a New Zealand performance to be proud of. Oh, it's not. And they made a lot of changes. They changed it to the start and line up, which, you know, it's come back to bike done really. They didn't, you know, give Wales any hope and, you know, Wales turned out performance from the ages. But, yeah, from New Zealand point of view, they just looked lost for options. I think Wales defence pressured their skill set. And, you know, Barrett was trying to make things happen in the second half. But nothing was happening. There was knock-ons, there was turnovers. And we were talking about the tries that were held up. And, yeah, for New Zealand, you know, that's the problem. It's not Wales's problem. Yeah. If you look at on the other foot, you know, it's been how many years to Wales 1953? 73 years. They haven't won. You've flipped that. Who were the first team to lose to Wales? And they're going to be, that's what this group would be known for. But they lost to Wales for the first time in 73 years. It's mind blowing. And there was some really good individual, you know, I thought T.T. Sorry, he was unbelievable, wasn't he? And he was getting in the game. Yeah. I spoke to John Mitchell. And he was like, they needed to go back to a little bit of structure. You know, when it was apparently kicked to the corner, maybe you'll go off a scrum, they ended up going against 15 Welsh front line, rather than maybe get it back to a set piece and then they can work from there. And I think they completely just lost their minds a little bit in that last 10 minutes. Yeah. Actually, the first half of New Zealand played a lot from deep to day when Wales kicked off. They played from their own 22 and had a bit of pay out of it. In the second half, Wales obviously talked about that a half time and said, New Zealand are playing a lot. Let's pull up a press round them. So, Murray would kick long, Castello would kick long. It was one time it never seemed, Bowden Barrett just indecisive in his own 22. Was he going to kick? Was he going to run? He ended up running, getting turned over. And that was the story of the game. Yeah, Eddie James and Maxwell Ellen, unbelievable defensively. If you go back and watch it, how many times they forced New Zealand back inside or put a massive hit and stopped it on the game line. And then it just killed all momentum and from New Zealand. And you know, yeah, I still can't believe it. I'll be honest. Then I ask you both, when you look down that Wales 23 now, having seen this result, having seen the performance they put out on the field, who are you now looking at differently as a result of that one performance that maybe you're a bit like, oh, they're in, oh, they're out. Who was stepped up and come of age today? For me, it's difficult to pick one. I think Eddie James had mentioned him. I thought he was outstanding. Both of them as well. Obviously, he was playing with the match. But I was watching Eddie James every instance he had both sides of the ball. Some of his tackles, he was pulling in. It wasn't just, you know, soak up tackles. He were dominant tackles. In a tack, he looked good as well. He's ball carrying. He scored a try as well. But it's difficult to pick just one. I thought Blair Murray has stood up, not just this week last week. He's outstanding as well. I think if you looked either, I think I thought Archie Griffin. I thought that Scrum was solid. His carrying is come on a mill, you know, a lot. James, both of them, I think physicality wise, wow, he's got it, isn't he? You know, that was probably something he, he wasn't really known for. That backfield, I still think that left wing is still up for grabs, isn't it? You know, you got Zammett and Blair Murray. That's an area. But I love, I, I think this midfield of Costello, James and the well and that, that is going to be the mainstay of that backline for Wales for a long period of time, whether it's defense or attack. I got to say, Thomas Williams had a terrific game as well. You got Chris says a little bit last week, didn't he? But he had a hand in pretty much, you know, all the tri-zett is kicking stuff, was good. He's a running thread. Yeah, but it goes back to the breakdown though, hookie, doesn't it? Yeah, it does. Yeah. How aggressive, how much for physical Wales were at the breakdown, which gave Thomas Williams to get out and defend the wall and do his thing? I was really surprised around 65 minutes where Steve Tandy did make the call to change the halfback pairing. You're nodding away over me already, James, I was thinking, is he going, okay, this is the game. I've got to get these boys on because the other two are tired and I need to give them the experience of being in this game. But ultimately they came on and they saw it out Ruben Morgan Williams and Dan Edwards. Yeah, I was surprised at that, because that's 15 minutes to go. The game is in the balance and, you know, you look over the last sort of year or so, Thomas Williams hasn't really come off as he stayed on the whole game and all of a sudden you see them change the halfbacks. You think, you know, one, one school game has a big, big call, but, you know, it's in credit to Steve Tandy. It's a big call, but it's a call. It's going to benefit that four, four halfbacks. The two tens are going for it, but I thought Thomas and Constella were to find 65 minutes and then Ruben Morgan Williams, Dan Edwards, come on, close it out. As you say, Dan Edwards held one ball up over the line. It's going to benefit them massively. I think that's the earliest Thomas Williams. I think you have to have a look back. I have a feeling that's the earliest he's come off the Wales in probably like two years, I think. Yeah, and it'll play in Wales because you don't usually see that. If you're 19 and 10 on the pitch and it's going well for you personally in the games and the balance you're thinking about, I'm staying on for the for the full 80 year and all of a sudden, you know, they change it and it's worked. We don't often do this on rugby in a weekly, but I feel it's quite important because Welsh rugby hasn't had a night like this in a while. So plot me the route down West Gate Street, where's everyone going? Where's the place to be? Where do the players end up and where are you two going next? You first Alex Cuff, but you know this route well. Well, I was going to go home because I had about a six o'clock flight tomorrow morning, but I'm not now, so I will probably go to the Arms Park. There'd be a lot of ex-players go there, Tom Shouting doesn't event, and then it would just, yeah, a little kick on a little bit from there, I can say. That's probably as much I can say on this support. Right, okay, okay. Yeah, well, I came up on my wife and three boys, so they didn't card if I had planned on going back with them, so I'm going to give it a ring and train a goal shoot a few more hours now, but yeah, we'll enjoy tonight. That's for certain. I think after 73 years, the negotiations should go in your favour. And I should tell you, there was another rugby match that happened today. There was a few that's happened over the weekend, one in particular that happened today was in England, Japan. That was it, Twickenham. Let's head over to Chris Jones. Thanks, Lozara, and to Huki and Cathy as well. And what a job they've done down in Cardiff, what a performance, what a moment for Welsh rugby, for Welsh sport, and that says a lot. Alex Cuff, but Matt Dawson changing his plans, no six then, like, to the arms part, meet up with some old players because that's a result for all of Welsh rugby, isn't it? So once in a lifetime, I suppose it has been a lifetime for all of those players, and hopefully Wales will be New Zealand again, but you have asked majority of the people in that stadium, what even born, you know what I mean? That is an enormous result. I was just after the game here, popped into one of the hospitality rooms. It was headline news on ITV news. Oh my goodness me, I mean, that is the enormity outside of Wales, I don't think people quite understand the enormity of that victory. I think if you throw into the pot, everything what's been going on with Welsh rugby, were they are coaching term or teams being pulled here and everywhere, some players don't know what they're going to, if they are a job week to week, I even throw all that into context as to it is wild at there, nobody on this planet would have said that Wales are going to do that and do in style. And the results they have had this Wales team have been Japan and Italy, and then they go and topple the all blacks, and yeah, as you say the context is huge and those results just don't happen in test rugby do they, there was no evidence to say that was going to happen. But on any, but also in test rugby these days, you know, you used to get back in the day kicking club backs to the wall, winner kind of scrappy game, you could maybe do that in the way in football, you can have a 1-0, get 10 players behind the ball, but teams are so powerful and well-drawn, you just don't see big upsets anymore, you really don't. You do not put any money on 200 to 1 on. Of course you don't, unless you're mad, or you're very rich, but even then you're putting on your tenor for a bit of fun. That is, that's an insane result. No one, I don't know one in the rugby that was going to happen today and to see, just to see how deep Wales dug in for a sustained period of time. That wasn't like a five minutes and it's a one point ballgame and a five, it was not half an hour. They went to places. I'm not sure, well, I'm not sure you could, you know, you could ever go again. That was, that was deep. Yeah. You see, let us say, 201 on. I mean, you've got to stake 200 quid to win a quid. I mean, they're going to kill some accumulators this week. That is for sure. Even last week after the game, they were, they were like, we're miles off it. We just beat Japan. Who've just shipped 78 here. After the game, the pond is what I was saying. No, no, no, we're miles off it here. I can't remember a game. Wait, wait, wait, no one is. Yeah. It's not like a few people are going, giving Wales a fight. But Alice Cuff book was on five plus four with with Grayson and Chappers earlier today. And he said, the world's close would believe because you've got no other choice. You guys have X pros. And we asked the question, Chappers, my off-cuffee, as it's say, how'd you go into a game knowing you're going to lose? Because that's where we thought it was going. And he said, no, they'll believe they can win. Although, you know, maybe in 20 years time, when they're writing their books, they'll go, oh, maybe we didn't believe in the same way they love X Scotland and players go. You're under it book deals, are you? Well, no, I'm just saying that, you know, if you speak to some some Scotland players, you never beat New Zealand, they would go, you know, we never really believed it. You kind of thought, well, we're in that. And they've gone and done it. And that's what's so incredible. Don't joke about that. No, no, no, that is. That's crazy. That's a fairy tale film. Yeah. There's a documentary. There's a film. There's a book for balance. What we're saying about New Zealand. Well, they were, they had made changes, but you can't be off the timers beforehand. It's maybe just me saying this. I looked at the team and didn't see many weaknesses. It's a change team. Instead of Anthony Brown, Anthony Brown at 12, almost 100 Kappa, the great bowed in Barrett at 15, Richie Moonga, who's a World Cup final, you know, fly half one of the best in the world three years ago. I know he's been over in Japan. Scott Barrett in the second row, Lacai and the TTC both star. And they've been revelations. The front row is switched, but still some quality in their fetch and you'll start a Mua Hooker. I don't know. I mean, we can turn around and go, Oh, it was a, it was a change. You see inside, but I don't think it was a bow on paper by any stretch. Okay. So they played, they were, and okay, on selection, fine. Okay. The, though, what I would talk about is a slightly bigger picture around New Zealanders. How did they not work out how to play against that team with all the possession for 30 minutes, all the territory, all the pressure. They got wrapped up in the emotion of the game and the build of momentum that, that Wales had delivered in defense, but they still had plenty of opportunities to score, tries and to tie the game. Sometimes you just, I think that's a big deal. Of course you, but New Zealand don't. I'm saying, I'm saying there's a bigger chink there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It falls on the halfback send, doesn't it? If they are not attacking the right way, if they're not executing, they've got held up three times. Oh, well, true. But Ratimer, rather than Roy, I mean, Roy God's, as we know, a world class player, but of course, Ratimer has been around for a bit and he's excellent. And then Moonga, they'll be a spotlight on Moonga given he's not been playing test rugby for a while, compared to when McKenzie or lovers have been at 10. So I think in that situation, do probably show that inquest will be that inquest will start in New Zealand. It'll be going on, whether they've woken up now, probably morning time in New Zealand. That inquest will be fierce. Sure. If you turn up here, though, next week, and then they turn up here and now they go to London and what a week this is going to be with a New Zealand team that have been humbled. But let's get into England, find a word on Wales, because I saw Lloyd Williams, who here we are at Twickenham, down that left touch line. He puts that kick in for Garrett Davis talking about great Welsh rugby memories. That's another one here in 15. But in terms of an upset, I do think that was as big a an upset as Japan, South Africa. Lloyd Williams said in the live text, "I hope the Welsh players know how happy they've made this Welsh nation." And I'm sure they do, but that really sums it up. Just want to, you've got to use that, no, that amount of confidence they're going to take from that. Coach's players, we have seen that there is going to come a turn at some point. And when you look at the squad now, you look at how many are in the Premier, and they're like the best players in the Premier, most weeks there was going to come a time where they get going. Nobody thought it would be today, and the result they had, but no, they've got, man, they've got to use this now. Everybody wants a good Wales, as much as you want to joke about it. We need a strong Wales. Hopefully this is the point where they start going forward again. England goes to Wales in the Six Nations. England play against Wales in the World Cup. That narrative now is starting to build. Just what have we, can we've had already? With the France game and now this, and yeah, just what about sport, hey, you can't beat it. That Donna Kerr-Callahan quote, back in the day when he said the Welsh players were clarkent for their regions and superman for Wales. And you know, that's what Welsh players can do. They can get that Welsh jersey on and feel the nation and what this could do for Welsh rugby going forward, sell out the stadium. You know, the Premier's got other part on the back here for these players playing in the Premier. They are the bulk of that Welsh squad, no. And they've been the best players in the Premier. They haven't been doing that in the USA. Yeah, I don't mean to say five, the starting 15 is it? No, this more. We don't have to have a look, but there's more in the squad. I think, I don't think it's certainly helped some of them, but I, you know, I wouldn't go and say that it could be down to it. It's all down to English rugby. No, I can feel. I said a bit that on the voucher last and turn this into an English rugby thing. I mean, we keep trying to move on, but we can't because it is such a special day and such a special win. 78 points to 15. I mean, it was on from the off, wasn't it? Like from the off. Will Joseph scores with his first touch? He gets five. He's coming up on the pod, but reflections doors on. I mean, magnificent for Will Joseph, particularly that first half, and they weren't just Strollins, you know, but I thought that he showed great finishing quality. England looked very sort of well-drilled, accurate, powerful, they stamped the authority on the game very early on. I have to say, Japan were really poor, really poor, so passive in their defence. They obviously had a rocket half time from Eddie Jones. They came out and, you know, had a couple of moments, but it's a while, actually, since I've seen England completely destroy aside like that, when maybe in the World Cup, you're playing against Chile, and you just know the result is going to be like that. Whereas I might have expected England to win by 30 possibly. Yeah, mid 30s. Today probably could have been on drift, wouldn't it? If they got their kicking shoes up, and the ratio they were scoring points should have been 100. What's happened to Japan? Just first of all, I don't want to take anything away from England because they were great from the start off, and I'm really happy they've got two from two, but what has happened to Japan here? So, putting all of a sudden, it's happened over a year or two, I think, why are they so bad? I think finals in the World Cup in 2019? Yeah, that is a while back, and they've lost some generational players. They still have some experience, and the guys like Himeno, the back rower, who's a generational player, he's kind of in the wider squad, Michael Leach as well, they might get him to the World Cup. I think Eddie Jones is trying to build some experience and adding in some more experienced players to the wider squad. No, no, no, no. But no, I mean, look, if they sent our team here, incredibly Callo, when you've got guys who two play for the university, their best player is playing for university over in Japan, the Wingo's first game of pro rugby 15. So, are we saying that we should be, as a game, we should be funding this a bit better. If the potentials is in Japan, is it a funding issue? I feel like no, that was aimed at a World Cup. I don't think we can't, we can't let Japan just slide away. That would be an absolute travesty for them to slide away and not, and then be not challenging for this tournament. They've beaten Italy, beat Italy in the summer, and they've beaten Fiji recently. So, I don't think they are necessarily on the slide. They just aren't not the team that we saw in 15 and 19, for sure. I had a quick word with Eddie Jones downstairs, they have to be in the game on 20 minutes, but within five, they've conceded and they've had a man sent off, haven't they? So, just everything they could have gone wrong, went wrong from the off, and then you're playing into World Drilled England with the Twickenham crowd up and they were taken to the cleaners. So, in answer question, where they're going and where they will be come next year, I think is a good question, but certainly, that's Eddie Jones's challenge, isn't it? He's got it. They're a far cry from beating South Africa in the World Cup, aren't they? Yeah, and even better in 19 than 15. They were, yeah. When they beat Scotland, the day after the typhoon, I've never seen quick rock, rock be like it, they were different gear, but think that a lot of that crop, or all of that crop has now moved on, so it's a new era, they're in transition. So let's see what they say about over the next 12 months. We don't have the same culture or like we are far from it. No one they bought the winger. KENKI. KENKI for Kyoko was he? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was like the one of the best player of the World Cup in 2019. Our player goes to me. He was such a good winger. He just left, he just left. He went to work. He went to be a doctor. Right. You can't, the culturally way. It's so different to us. Sport is not the ideal and all it's my job and my career is what I'm in for rugby sidepiece. And when you've, that's in your culture. You're always kind of going to struggle to build a team that wants to. Yeah. Well, I suppose and the rest of the unions and the rest of the players are, I mean, the, the goal of professional rugby is pretty steep at the moment, isn't it? From year to year. Yeah. The kids know in the, in the Prem clubs are globally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Big time. You look at the development of the skill development standards, the pace, the fitness, the, the, the endurance of these. Well, Eddie said on Tuesday, they didn't have a sort of high performance program. Do they in Japan? They're going to go to the university. They might go to the top league club, but they don't have what you're talking about there. That kind of academy type, type environment. So it looked as though they were getting going and they were keen to get involved. And no, it just looks like we've seen that bounce. And yeah, this might be just how they continue forward. But I can't see the game in Japan going more professional than what it is. The league is what it is. And maybe the international team is going to be the, maybe a slightly broader pod or conversation that we had there. But you've got to probably worry about the, the split in the tears. Well, and the way, and the way, and the way, the whales are always going to be in the, in the top. I can't attend or 12, but they are. Everybody is accelerating at such a pace at the moment. But that's what, and they're obviously criticism about the, the nation's championship potentially having the top 12 going off on their own playing the nation championship every two years. And then the, the next 12, not in the play nation's cup, not getting the same top level. But that's where Japan are in. They're at the top table, aren't they now? Them and Fiji have joined the, the big 10. So they have got that exposure every other year in the nation's championship. But if we go to England, just there's obviously World Cup squad places for grabs here. And it doesn't, the team that played today didn't necessarily screw. I think years gone by. I remember when DC, the, the famous bit with Eddie, Eddie Jones, and he never was seeing again for a, a good two years after that. And at, at that time, I felt the squad was more. I don't want to say selfish, but it was more. I, I want to play, I want to be first choice. If you know what I'm saying that right, I want to play. You need to pick me because I'm the best player I need to play. Whereas now, I think the lads are a bit more understanding of the squad feel of it. And understand you can all have a role and all, there's a chance for everybody to play a part. And I don't know, it just, it just didn't scream selfish to me that today. It seems like everybody was just enjoying being part of the squad. Wanted to do the bit for the team and stay part of the squad with the focus to hopefully being part of it into the World Cup. I think sport in general, that is coached and that is trained, and you have to develop that. You know, it from, you know, whether, whether you're 12, you know, watching my lads play rugby and football, they are genuinely never bothered about whether they're in the team. It's not even a conversation, right? Whether they're in the team or they're on the bench or in the squad. It's not. It's like, yeah, okay. Whereas, I want to be the team here. I don't want to be on the bench. And I'll probably have a little bit of a cry if I was 14 and I wasn't playing in the team. But I think it's just now, it's a fair point. It's just that is part of the culture of sport that it is around the squad. You're right. I mean, there was some great performances from some of the bench today, particularly for Slough, or, you know, he just finished you as well. Yeah. But for the bank should be playing. He came and he played well today. Yeah, he did. Well, the outside of the boot kick was so good. I thought it was Henry Slade, didn't I? In commentary. He went through and I went Slade and then he put it outside of the boot kick for set up for War Joseph. Because his skill says, I don't know if you missed it as well. But he threw the pasta merely, or the why pasta merely for Merley's try. But he did a pass for Ben Earl in the Wales game. Only this year was good. A flat ball, a fur bank through would be raving about it. Actually, because he's so big, Freddie Stewart, he gets categorized as, you know, aerial wonders of career and traffic. But he's a skill for that. But I don't think he was, I'm not sure he's been the skills that we've seen recently. Do they come on? I think a lot of development there and probably a little bit of realization that he has to change his game. If he wants to compete with Furbank, and he's got some good coaches around him that are saying, hopefully he's saying the same thing rather than, you know, back of the bill, you know, keep doing what you're doing, you know, bigger, stronger facts. No, you've got to develop if you want to challenge. He's a good example of, he's got a certain skill set and he's not come out today. He's got, I've got to play amazing and well to play next week because I'm under pressure to play against Furbank and this and that. Where the coaches has actually gone, Freddie, we're going to use you a bit differently. We're going to use you to your strengths. We're going to bring you into a center outside center. You're going to hit a short line. You're going to chase kickoff, you're going to chase box kicks. We're going to use your skill set to better suit how we're going to play today and not try and fit you into a square peg or try and play like George Furbank. We're going to, and that's good coaching, I think, to be able to do that and change the way we have attacked and use the last strength. Plenty of standout performers, but no doubt the headline grabber. Four and a half years since he won his solitary cap before today off the pitch on the tour of Australia is a 19 year old through a change of clubs and through health issues and everything. Will Joseph back, scoring with his first touch, scoring five in all, a record equaler. Here he is on the pod. It's a very special day. A day I'll probably never forget and I'm just, yeah, I'm very grateful to be part of this team and given another opportunity to represent my country and I'm very grateful for the team and how well we moved the ball today to get five tries as well. So a very good day. I imagine when you're a winger, it's nervous to start. You want to get your hands on the ball, but to get a touch straight away, to score with basically your first touch, to have a hat trick within 20 minutes, I must have just been incredible. Yeah, I think as a winger, like you're always trying to get your hands on the ball as soon as possible and to have that as a first touch, it sort of eases your way into the game. So again, very grateful to Max to throw on that one across the face and making sure I could get my hands on the ball. Were you aware that you've equaled an English rugby record, five tries in the men in the international and did you know that you were one try away from breaking it with six? Yeah, I think with like 15 minutes to go, one of the physio said, try and get six, try and get six, but I think I was out of it. I was out of gas, all right. So I couldn't get six, but yeah, happy to get five. I can't complain. No, you showed good discipline though to to stay in your winger, not go hunting for a Christian in commentary, was like, just go look over the ball, get that sick. Yeah, I was just focused on doing my job, but I was happy with scoring five. So you're brother was touched line. The camera was on him quite a lot. He got a couple of hat tricks for England in his quality career, but how good to not just get a hat trip, but to score a couple more. Yeah, again, like a very special day, and it was awesome having like all my family there, having Jay there pitch side, obviously, I've grown up watching him a lot, watching him play at this stadium and do special things. So it was a special day to do that for myself and have them all there supporting me. Man, and finally, given what you've been through over the past four and a half years, you spoke to us on the on the rugby and weekly the other day about it, the change of club and having to move to Gloucester and then what happened with with your rear, that must make it even more satisfying given you've had to work so hard to get this second cap and wait so long. Yeah, it's been a challenge of four years, but nonetheless, I've enjoyed the journey to get them back here and I'm just happy that all that hard work I feel like I put in is paid off for a special day like today. And the journey's not done, hopefully there's more to give. It's going to say now the desperation is to get that shirt on many more times. Yeah, absolutely. I've had a little taste for it now and it's a special plan here and I'll do it again. Great to speak to you. Thanks so much. Thank you very much. So actually no better man to talk to than you when it comes to chasing. Well, that was five tries. You must've got four for you against Italy. Yeah. You know, in a game. Oh, yeah, yeah, but even I scored five tries in a game. You must have scored five tries. Yeah, yeah, just not test much. Not test much. Got to four. Five different gravy. But interesting him saying there that because we were talking in comms, does he know that he's equaled? You know, did he lose C in Underwood and people? Yeah. Oh, no, we heard him there. The physio came on and told him grab a sick, sick, if you can. Oh, that bothered me a lot. And he didn't come hunting. But I didn't come on to even the top one. It doesn't want to go looking for it. And that's not what the England management want to see is him going hunting individual act. So he did say give him the right to yeah, they've gone on all I just can't believe twice He had a lot almost to run in didn't he one ball from state who was I know he's such a good pass for the ball And it just made him check yeah, but I'd have been everywhere. I know but I'm saying that if Joseph does that It's that almost a black mark next to his name because he's gone hunting an individual accolade and the management like no No, no team team not if the not if the physio's got under said yeah, yeah, he's got So he's shown good restraint. He's got permission. I I think of anything I You those center scrubs for me that that bothered me if he knew you'd be like get that get it out Stop crowding this area. Well, and by the way, I'm up against the bat rower Just give me the ball. Just give me the ball in an acre of space Though that's the tactic you've got to lay season other people's mind Go on. That's what he didn't do just whisper in the centers here. Yeah Yeah, I'm the fly up so the physio's come to will instead right near the trite. He's then got to go Ball day, so you know how move ends up with me and other one place all to the forwards We have five more than I'll get on the back of it. You got to you got to let people know you got to let people in on the action Let's have a word about about New Zealand in a second There are so many pods on the way. We're gonna pod on Monday and then we're gonna nation's pod what a nation's pod Kara three so and calling the commentary home on TV and so you can't wait to speak to him And I'll be out in the middle of the week But it was a book. I'm X in the cricketer ed Smith you may have Crosspass with Smith. He read a book called luck about how your sporting career can be impacted on As it says in the title luck and kind of you know, it makes example if you if you say get your test debut as a batsman on a Lovely batting wicked against a poor bowling attack. You make a hundred-dour away, and I always remember Michael Carbury getting his debut against Mitchell Johnson at the gap But you're like Cheers. I'd rather do that brother. He would rather any other attack in any other place Just bad luck. If you're arching with parlance you're coming on as a debut at Wickenham 60 odd points on the board loader Touches 30 minutes. No, I don't think that's the one. Is that not the one look they looked at it. It was disjointed by then Do you think so do you think that's not the ideal debut? That's I'm saying You could argue either way, but by the way can be luck when you say, you know It can it can create it does for you for you to have a successful career You need luck end of period done You can't go through the whole of your career without the bounce of a ball or a decision or You know the bar where the competition or yeah, it just doesn't happen You know, I felt a little bit for archie today because it was a bit hair and scarum for when he came on and the nature of the type of player that he is He went looking and that and you could sort of see that. Yeah, he did he would not have scored very well I don't think was to be bothered because he went looking too much rather than just Zip go on and get on those little cutting cheating lines and then do you know let it come to him rather than he just forced it a little bit probably because the opposition were You know weren't that good there were a few gaps So it was I thought it was a tricky one for him Okay, so not what I'd laid out as being a dream scenario kind of thing I just remember warming up and thinking if you get a come on remember 10 minutes earlier. I think it's fine, right? I think you left it a bit a little bit like it's a dim early debut against Ireland in Dublin or Baraja kicks they're doing just just how you start off your career can be Yeah, I don't know just there's that love doing many hard. No, he's got it. He doesn't have to go through that I think it's a good way of him getting into it lots of touches this at the art But so many things we could pick up. Let's just look ahead to New Zealand and Was there anything from today? But and I asked the board for this and he said that every game has an impact on selection But I also wonder the way he went about using his bench clearly told you what you know the fact that George Martin goes 80 Does that indicate the Martin thing going to be used that banger off the bench against New Zealand? possibly Other selections that that he made today other performers anything you think Changes the selection picture ahead of New Zealand. I know that it'll be dependent on chess and a fair bank and set back Considering whether they're fit as is as is hopes and unexpected That's just for example does Joseph come in as a many fair voted like for like replacement Do you look at that and go right? That's X back to being wheeled against yeah Against the all blacks or do you think they get to me? There's a gap on the wing because because fair boat has out what the issue is with today is you didn't really get challenged and defense at all He just didn't there was no real threat from the moving the ball or kicking the ball in the behind or finding space in mind and We shuffle things around when George four plays because he plays in the back field a bit more I don't know I didn't see enough for me to say that that would So watch your back. I mean it's good for a try so no there isn't there isn't many options So you if you're Steve you're going off That you think he's ready because he but he didn't get tested in defense today. He just didn't Is it relevant that he's playing right wing and Tommy Freeman plays right wing? Steve thinks so he likes a left and a right wing. Yeah, which case that I would never play left generally. No. Yeah, there you go There is something in that but it's individual. Yeah, and how they feel about it I suppose if you're a 13-stroke wing you probably spend a lot of you spend a lot of time both sides of the pitch But yeah, it's gonna be interesting to what of interesting to see what he does. Murley is a left-winger and Murley's like you solid, isn't he solid does his job. He played in that front's game Where they where they probably could have nicked it at the end of the game. He was solid. So he's had Yeah, it's gonna be funny to see how he does because will it so well today five try but it did to arondled, didn't he? Arondled scored five against a similar position than play Yeah, but I was I don't think Arondled was going to get in ahead of you know a Johnny May or Yeah, with that experience. Yeah, but he's just knockout you score five Thing a lot of fans will go if the team comes out on Thursday for the Saturday game and Joseph not in it Yeah, a lot of our listeners go hold on what you can't score that many more than far But it's there's a bit more to it than that isn't there. Yeah I suppose the difference is that there is there's a gap There's a space there's a shirt I'm not sure I I Think he I think that type of That type of winger is a really nice balance with with Freeman to have that slight balance of you know Raw power speed finishing ability to then having that very much that jinky don't you know as much as defensively Yeah, the question could be asked But you're asking a lot of New Zealand as well New Zealand all of a sudden they're playing against will Joseph They're like, oh, okay, how are we going to defend him again? Yeah, yeah, yeah the the slightly The more pressing question would be for me have said backkinson's not playing What what they do with that midfield Some nice touches from a jomo today. Yeah, yeah, and probably got overlooked a little bit because of what the other backs were up to But he he seemed pretty solid, but again, you know, you can't compare playing against that Japanese Backline, he's not going to be tested, but again, what what are the options if Seb's not available. Yeah, well It's just pray to ding wall who's beating the all black system last year, but Didn't play today and hasn't been seen yet this autumn So you feel that a jomo's jumped ahead of him in the pecking order, but Jordy Barrett will be back in the New Zealand team So for any of those 12s, but particularly a jomo and Seb Atkinson who are right at the start of their test careers What a challenge against one of the best to do it in Jordy Barrett. So wow and I know on top of that And it's only a small point But today highlighted to me how far ahead Finn Finn Smith is I would George Ford You know, I don't I wouldn't say George Ford Neso did anything wrong, but just the flow of the game and the way that The bat line run with Finn opposed to George George look quite tense. He looked maybe that was reflective in his kicking as well. We're kicking at goal, but Yeah, I don't know I think he was he was seem to be forcing it a little bit big big week then and We were going to set up the week by saying New Zealand is smarting because they lost here 12 months ago and New Zealand road players have memories like elephants when it comes to defeats But they've been they've had an even even more humbling one so Wow, they'll they'll obviously bring a fair few big guns back, but that that is Does that set the week up just to finish guys? That's set the game up better or worse That New Zealand have have lost a Wales does it make them even do they get bodies back pardon? Do they get players back What's the rindrues situation? I don't know yet. Well, there was a loss of Proactive changes from Dave Rennie, but oh proactive. Yeah. I mean there's any he didn't he didn't make these changes because of so Will Jordan's the will Jordan's the one, isn't he? Because I dare you know will Jordan on the pitch today maybe gives him that bit of Cutting edge in class, not they were short of it But joy bar comes back in. I'm sure Dave is going to go to 10 can Roy guard comes back in yeah will and comes back in if he's fit. That's a big, I say, I love a few players. Yeah, with a hole that comes back in the second row. There's a fair Cody Taylor comes back a hooker, doesn't he? No, that's changed a table too. Yeah. The London Razi was saying it was all over for the last night. That's not a double zone wide open again. Water 20. So that puts that back on the tail. We can get to the final if they get a win here. Both teams potentially in England a little bit less so because France being at the top of that leaderboard, but you can't think like that. When is the France game? Is that before or after England? France. France, Argentina. No, France are not a worry though, are they? They're at top so they're going to walk to the final. They're going to. I'm just thinking of giving it England something to go after. So yeah, no England played before, but bear in mind if France get their full five points against Argentina, which looks very probable. But if you're doing that, you're not thinking like that. No, no, no, you're going to. But I think I think given basically when England lost the Ellis Park, they didn't get a bonus point when France lost to New Zealand. They got two bonus points losing and try. Right, which is the difference right now. So I know we're getting all excited here about who's finished and set first and second. England boys are not thinking about that. I think towards the end of this week, why would you not? Let's just think about New Zealand, plan B in New Zealand. Yeah, but if you do that, you know, I know, but it's we're breaking it down. But I can't, I can't see it affecting their preparation or even so, right? If you do ignore what I've just said there, but again, to the final, when are England the not going to get two fixtures like this back to back against a New Zealand and so that for good, are they back to back? Well, they've got to get in the top two and there are a lot of something to say about that as well. Let's say France, the big favourites to win it because their result last night. England could do what they do next Saturday. Oh, they're bound to have South Africa. So it's all third. But they couldn't have third and playing the Aussies again or the Aussies. Yeah, but the chances are that they're going to finish England or finish second and play New Zealand. That would be, would that be where the no, because Ireland are right close as well. Ireland are right there behind England. Our plans are having no win. And yeah, Ireland gets it. It's it. Look, it's all to play for. We'll go through it through the week. Plenty of pods. Top team. Yeah, and we're here next Saturday. Go graceful. Let's help bring it on. England, New Zealand, always very, very special. Matt Dawson, Chris Ashton, Tassara and James Hook and to Alex Cuthbert, a massive thanks. Hope they're enjoying. All that Cardiff has to offer after such an historic sporting. If you were a true Welsh fan, you'd get in a car and go down the M4, wouldn't you? Right, genetically Welsh. Yeah, I mean, you were in a heartbeat. You would get on in there. It's only two hours. You'd go. Do you know the one guy that sees straight through Jonesy? Steven. He knows his Welsh. I'm strictly neutral as everyone knows. On Tom Allen, should I say, would you, would you consider it? Well, getting in the car and going down. No, no. Could be one of the greatest days of your life. What's the time? At Tom Allen, yeah, you'll, you'll be cut out of the proper form. Say to Clark like the time. Oh, they tiger tigers probably open till two, isn't it? No, no. Are you watching us? He's stuck behind me. Anyway, God's got a job to do. Thanks, everyone. Cheers. Cheers. See you soon. Thanks for downloading Rugby Union Weekly. For more info, head to the BBC Sounds app. Sometimes we all need an extra helping hand, especially with a tricky business problem you've been putting off. Claude is the AI for just that. It's the collaborator that understands your entire workflow and thinks with you, not for you, and Claude isn't just for quick questions. 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