The Great Recycling Scam: How Big Plastic Fooled America | Julia Cohen

Did plastic manufacturers know decades ago most plastic was never realistically going to be recycled? It was never designed to be recycled. Why were consumers being told that recycling was the answer? I don't even know how many millions of dollars has been spent on the Keep America Beautiful campaign. The fake crying Indian by the side of the road as someone throws something out of their car window. That's a sham. It was entirely a marketing strategy. Out of nowhere, conservatives are like, let's talk about plastics and fast fashion. Because I feel like we made fun of people that cared about this issue. They affect everybody. If one in two people in this country is going to have some form of cancer, this has nothing to do with where you stand politically. It has everything to do with how we solve it. When you're walking down the street, walking through an airport, or even at school, you are inundated with signs that are telling you to recycle. We see those little triangles on the bottom of bottled water or soda bottles, and we think this can be recycled. But what if everything that we've been told about plastic and even recycling is one? Big sham. My guest is Julia Cohen, co-founder and executive director of Plastic Pollution Coalition. And this episode is mind-blowing. I have been wanting to do this episode for years, and Julia really was the perfect guest to wait for. Watch this on the Real Alex Clark YouTube channel or Culture Apothecary on Spotify. We need your five-star reviews. If you're a new listener or you've been listening for a while, make sure you take two seconds to click five stars and then leave a sentence on which episode officially made you a fan. Maybe it's this one. Please welcome Julia Cohen. Julia Cohen from the Plastic Pollution Coalition to Culture Apothecary. I am absolutely jumping out of my skin for this interview, Julia. I cannot express to you, for years I've wanted to do this topic. And I've talked about plastic on the show a little bit, but I haven't talked about recycling at all, which I know we're going to get into today. And the reason is because politically I differ from a lot of people doing the work that you do. And I think I differ from you yourself probably on most political issues. But on this topic, we really agree. And so it's been hard to find somebody that's been willing to come on the show to talk about this, unfortunately. And so when you said yes, I was just so thankful and excited because it just shows that it doesn't really matter whether you're coming from the left or the right. This is a massive public health issue that everybody should be concerned about. And so I just wanted to thank you for coming on. Thank you for having us. And totally agree. 100% nonpartisan. And this is something that is affecting the future of humanity. Has it been so weird for you that out of nowhere conservatives are like, wait, let's talk about plastics and fast fashion and all these health issues? Because I feel like for a while we kind of like made fun of people that cared about this issue. I'm not surprised. I've worked in politics for decades from a perspective of public health, women's health, reproductive health, environmental health. And all of those things are nonpartisan inherently. If one in two people. If one in this country is going to have some form of cancer, this has nothing to do with where you stand politically. But that's a different discussion. So we found out that trans fats weren't safe, that cigarettes weren't safe, that paint made from lead wasn't safe. Go figure. You know, Teflon, BPAs. Is plastic the next chapter in that story? You know, a product that we were told was perfectly safe but actually isn't. Plastics have been around since World War II. A lot of the problems that you just mentioned are also things that grew out of the chemical development for war efforts. And it's only been a matter of time that I think we've caught up to recognize how significant an impact it's having globally as well. So in short, yes, I think there's a lot of history based on those other issues that are helping our movement to understand how we actually. we go about reaching people more broadly to talk about these problems and to solve them. Yeah, I agree with you on that. I think of the American way of life, right? And I think about metal lunchboxes and glass bottles of milk and cloth diapers, right? Everybody was using cloth diapers. How did we become the United States of plastic? All those things, bringing back the milkman, metal lunch containers, all of that is part of what we're doing to solve the problem now is bringing those things back. Part of how we got here is that by looking for and creating markets for all those chemicals and materials made for the war effort, markets were created. Massive amounts of Madison Avenue marketing were spent to sell us the idea of convenience. I mean, there's a Life magazine cover image of a family just throwing tons of plastic up into the air. It's like the thing to save all. Housewives Day is you can just throw it away. From the beginning, plastic actually was never made to be recycled. It was not designed that way. It was not made to be reused. It was made to be thrown away and considered, you know, just waste, which was okay to throw away. We know now that that's not okay. What's been the most disturbing thing that scientists have discovered about plastic in the last five years? Oof, there is so much. The first. The first thing that comes to mind is I think in particular in the last five years, the research on microplastics and nanoplastics has really exploded. No pun intended. The, you know, microplastics are smaller than five millimeters. Nano are like nanoparticles, like not seen by the human eye. And even, you know, the smaller microplastics, not really easy to see. The research now is finding it pretty much everywhere it looks. So it's not just in our air and our water and our soil. And our food. It is in pretty much every part of our body that scientists have looked. Where in the body are we now finding might be coated with plastic or at least have a plastic accumulation? Right. Yeah. So it's not coating. It's literally embedding. So nanoplastics are being found in the vasculature in our brains, in our hearts, in the placenta, on the mother's side and the baby's side, in breast milk, in testes, in human and animal feces. Everywhere. Why do you think that we're finding so much on the brain in particular? Brains need fat to grow and to thrive. And plastics absorb and are attracted to fats. And the chemicals in plastic to make them clear, flexible, you know, hard, flame resistant, all of that is, you know, are also attracted to and attached to and part of those micro and nanoplastics. So you get. The bioaccumulation not only of, you know, the nanoparticles inside of veins and our bodies and animals' bodies and everything, but also all those chemicals. See, I think people like hear us talk about this and they're like, I don't understand. How does a plastic fork or a water bottle or a takeout container end up in my brain? How do you explain that to people? I mean, the entire supply chain is shedding microplastics, right? So from, you know, the creation of plastic to the. Sharing of it, the using of it, the disposal of it all along the way, washing your clothes, et cetera. All of those things shed these particles that are in our water. So you're drinking it, right? It's in the air. You're breathing it, right? You're putting things on your body. Your body is absorbing it. You're eating with a plastic utensil. You are eating parts of that plastic. That food that you're eating was probably made in an industrial kitchen, depending on where it came from, chopped on plastic cutting boards, potentially, you know, saved in plastic containers, delivered to you in a plastic container. You may be putting it in a plastic container. You may be heating it up in a plastic container in the microwave. Every step of the way, those things are interacting and leaching. Even brushing our teeth? Even brushing your teeth. Dentists and the, you know, that whole community has found, and that's part of why the one piece of federal legislation that has been passed about the Microbeads Act, I think from 2015, was to ban microbeads. in personal care products because dentists were literally finding microplastics under the gums in people's mouths. Is plastic becoming this generation's lead paint or cigarettes? I would say 100 percent. I think the awareness is growing significantly. And that is what we set out with creating Plastic Pollution Coalition to do 17 years ago was tell the true story about plastic and call it what it is, pollution. The majority of plastic is not recycled, which I know we'll get into. But it's also, you know, as I said, never meant to be reused. So when you reuse it, you're also shedding those microplastics, eating, breathing, drinking those microplastics. And as people learn about this, as the connections to health and the science are made even stronger every day, as that science emerges even further, we know enough to act. Do you think that Americans are being controlled by plastic? I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think so. the full truth about plastics health risks? No, I don't think so, personally. And I think professionally, there is more and more kind of smoking gun. metamos and information coming out that the industry literally knew that like the market for plastic and the way to make the most money was they said literally in the trash can by creating something that could be thrown away that you know people who worked in those factories and worked in the processing also had health issues as we found with other chemicals you know especially the women these things have been known over time and they have definitely been distracted from and the marketing and the information has you know been deliberately put the onus on individuals to recycle better to you know make it our problem make it an individual decision all of these things when the protections the regulations that people assume that our government and different branches of the government are doing to protect us from things that can be done to protect us from and impact our health have been non-existent so one of my favorite movies ever is dark waters with mark ruffalo and ian hathaway and i actually interviewed the real life lawyer that that movie was based on on this show yep and uh he told the story you know about teflon and how the the people that were working on the assembly line making teflon products were getting sick their babies were being born with birth defects and you just mentioned that people that were actually making plastic products were getting sick and and having all kinds of problems especially the women can you elaborate on that and like what was going on and what does go on with people that are working on making plastic products as i said before the entire supply chain the entire life cycle of the creation of plastics so 99 of plastics are made from fossil fuels so the extraction of oil and gas in this country in the ohio river valley in louisiana what's referred to as cancer alley in the houston corridor i mean the people who live on the front line and fence line the poor working class people of color indigenous people who live in these regions have some of the worst health impacts wait why ohio river valley that's the permian basin so a lot of dinosaurs died there basically so underground is a lot of oil and gas and and frack gas a lot of plastics are made from frack gas like plastics is plan b for the oil and gas industry and now basically becoming plan a people refer to the oil and gas industry as the oil and gas industry and now basically becoming this is the triple planetary crisis because it is a health crisis it is an environmental crisis it is a you know political crisis wars are being fought over plastic because it's made from oil and gas basically right and the price of these things have gone up whereas you know no one's fighting over solar energy it's fascinating what you're saying about the ohio river valley because that's where i grew up my dad died of glioblastoma brain cancer now there's a bunch of things i mean his diet lifestyle lots of things i think uh contributed to that but that is like very interesting to me that you bring that up because i didn't even know that yeah well so part of why my sister and i are co-founders of plastic pollution coalition is because our mom died of cancer when i was 13 and she was 17 she was born and raised in florida in the miami area there was you know nuclear testing and the atolls and the islands and things around there we now know that the cancer she had that was originally breast and and lymph and eventually liver was endocrine related and she was born and raised in florida and endocrine disruption is part of what plastic and the chemicals in plastic do to our bodies another thing that does that is perfume yes i mean this episode isn't about perfume but i just have to ask do you wear perfume so i actually have a true botanicals roll-on bomb in glass there you go people always want to suggest certified made safe certified if you haven't heard of made safe it's the cadillac of healthy certifications for personal care and other products true botanicals founded by hillary peterson who also is a cancer survivor who worked in fast fashion and personal care products started this company after she survived cancer in order to create a whole line that was non-toxic and certified made safe from the beginning so cool i bet you've met so many cool people doing this job amazing and amazing women founders yeah we have over 250 business members in our coalition so kate mcleod body bombs and butters and things no water now being carried in sephora neat yeah oh i bet you love ama oh yes oh hannah hellriegel the chef there um is amazing and a friend and she just spoke we did uh 15 years later um we did it once before and we just did it in november tedx great pacific garbage patch in santa monica in november and she gave tedx talk about how she's behind the scenes in her kitchen in her restaurant ama in dc trying to eliminate all of the single-use plastic they don't use plastic cutting boards in the back of the kitchen i mean most places even when you go to a restaurant the behind the scenes they may be serving everything and you know in a nice restaurant and glass and ceramic and you know real stuff but behind the scenes majority of kitchens are filled with plastic so why are they doing that because the health inspector says there's a risk with like you know raw chicken on wood or something so they can't use a wood cutting board i don't know about that regulation but yeah like when you're on air planes if you ask to have your drink or your water put in your own reusable cup as i often do that's smart i carry all of my own reusables with me although we shouldn't have to you know i will have certain folks say oh i'm not allowed to do that or they'll pour it into a plastic cup and then pour the plastic cup into my cup so i think there definitely are health and safety regulations that have been promoted and pushed and implemented that are probably for certain good reasons but also some of them are probably not and i think that's a good thing and i think that's a good thing probably for business and profit reasons i need to say something because i see this in my dms every single day alex i want to get my health together but i just don't know where to start or i'll do it later when i have more money you know i've heard every version of this and i get it the system is confusing on purpose you go to a doctor they check like five things they tell you you're fine they send you home meanwhile you're still feeling exhausted inflamed just off so then you do nothing you wait and waiting becomes your health plan this is a system that's confusing on purpose this is why i'm really excited about what jevity just did they launched a completely free tier not a trial free you go to gojevity.com upload blood work that you already have from any lab and they give you a personalized longevity blueprint that analyzes over 90 biomarkers and actually shows you what's going on when i saw my blueprint i didn't just want to know i mean i saw all that info and i wanted to fix it and if that's you after finding out about what's going on with you you can do the jevity plus membership you can do the jevity plus membership you can do the jevity you get an actual functional clinician who walks through your results and builds a plan around you not a template they build you a plan and they don't stop at just testing you get access to supplements peptides hormone optimization nutrition help real protocols based on your labs they test over 90 biomarkers retest every six months adjust your plan and you have a care team you can actually message go to gojevity.com use code alex again go to gojevity.com use code alex you know what terrifies me not a lot of people but i'm not going to lie to you not the economy not even seed oils it's walking through sephora and seeing an 11 year old with a shopping basket full of products that make her look like she's heading to a las vegas residency sweetheart you're in the sixth grade you do not need 17 contour sticks you should look like you're going to summer camp not like jody foster and taxi driver that's why i actually love primally pure's new lip and cheek tint i am wearing it right now what do we think if you've got a younger sister daughter niece or tween in your life who wants to play with makeup this is perfect i am inheriting you , i had to count 40 nieces and nephews from vance i do not know how many nieces out of that there are but there's tons okay there's a lot and i'll definitely be recommending this to the moms of older ones it gives that healthy flushed beautiful look instead of looking overdone it has nourishing ingredients plus spf 15 zero toxic chemicals it melts into the skin works on both lips and cheeks and honestly i keep stealing it for myself it's so easy i just like constantly i'm like oh my gosh i need more i keep asking them for more pair it with their new sun serum and you're going to have a lot of fun and you've basically got your whole summer routine done in under a minute it's like a tinted sunscreen that you can wear just throughout the day or by the pool or whatever in the summer oh my gosh it's spf 30 it's beautiful lightweight coverage it's healthy glowing skin none of that heavy makeup feeling when it's 95 degrees outside which i cannot stand and trust me i live in freaking phoenix okay i am like the ultimate tester when it comes to any type of body or makeup product in heat i love that primally pure is female founded conservative christian owned they approach beauty from a skincare first perspective instead of just using stuff to cover it up right use code alex clark to get 15 off at primallypure.com that's primallypure.com use code alex clark at checkout for 15 off your order you know for decades i think the the plastic conversation has really been at least what i've heard and i i'm in an ignorant bubble on this you know save the ocean save the turtles recycle your bottle but almost nobody was talking about what plastic might be doing to the human body was that because the science wasn't there yet or is that because that's the conversation that the plastics industry wanted us to be having you know when we started 17 years ago we were focused on the ocean too and i think that was where people first really started to see the accumulation of not micro or nanoplastics but of literally like physical you know fishing nets and gear and stuff flowing from rivers and off land you know into the water and captain charlie moore the founder of algalita one of the founding organizations of this whole movement and one of the fathers of awareness of this grew up sailing through the great pacific garbage patch, and is the person who identified that and kind of named it as, you know, this issue. And he's one of the founders of our movement and our coalition. And so we all came from that position. I think it was where we first started seeing what basically are the canaries in the coal mine, right? The turtle entangled in a net, the albatross, baby chick dead, you know, with its stomach contents just filled with toothbrushes and bottle caps and all our, you know, plastic bits, the turtle with the straw in its nostril. Those moments and those things, and especially the turtle video, like went ultra viral. And awareness really, you know, we came from the ocean, we're made of water, like, these are things that are all connected. I don't think it was deliberate. I think it may be deliberate now to continue to try and keep the conversation on beach cleanups, and, you know, pulling our trash out of the water and all, you know, what used to be referred to as marine debris, and in some circles still is. But that's part of why we've always said, call it what it is, plastic pollution. The majority of what is now found in the ocean is not, you know, coconut husks. They're saying, like, you know, we're supposed to try to choose wild-caught seafood. That's the healthier type of fish to get instead of farm-raised. But even the wild-caught seafood now has plastic, and they're totally contaminated with plastic and heavy metals and things like that. So now they're, you know, like, there's companies like Seatopia, and they're not a sponsor yet. I would love for you to be Seatopia. Seatopia is farming fish or something, I think. I might be getting this wrong. But whatever they're doing, they're making sure that those fish are not contaminated with plastic and heavy metals and stuff. And so they're like, they found another way to do things. Now, there are people listening who have never heard of the giant gorilla. Garbage patch. So can you describe what is this garbage patch in the ocean? How did we get it? What is it made out of? Why are we doing it? What most people have heard about is the Great Pacific Garbage Patch, which is where the ocean currents in the Pacific Ocean all meet and swirl and is considered a gyre. There are gyres in oceans everywhere on the planet. There is an organization, also founding of our movement and coalition, called Five Gyres. Which has visited and identified the five main gyres. And there are now even more where the ocean currents swirl, where all of our plastic trash is ending up when it comes off land or off boats or off, you know, cruise ships. Like, it moves around, but it ends up where the currents take it. But are landfills and cruise ships and stuff allowed to dump garbage, you're saying, in the ocean? Allowed. I mean. They just do it? Well, it happens. I think the cruise ship issue is a whole separate one. But what comes off of land from the majority of places is stuff that is either blowing out of trash cans or trucks or, you know, being just thrown into rivers. So, you know, the majority of what's in the water comes from land. It's not, you know, necessarily coming from boats itself. It's coming from land. And those currents that used to be called, like, the doldrums and those kinds of things, like, where there's not a lot happening and everything circles there. They collect our trash. And it's not just floating on the top of the water. It's all the way down the sea column. Like a giant mountain? I mean, it's not a mountain yet, right? But it becomes what some scientists refer to as a smog because it's breaking down. The sun, the water, everything is breaking down the bigger pieces of plastic into those micro and nanoplastics. And it is in the water and it's on the floor of the ocean, right? So it's, like, in the entire system. And that's why there's research saying, you know, that there will be more plastic than fish by weight in the oceans by 2050. Oh, my word. So, yes, you know, it'd be nice for there to be seafood without any microplastics or chemicals or things building up in them. But, you know, the majority of our food chain is, you know, the bigger fish eat the little fish, right? Sure, yeah. It's impossible. Right. Well, so I had just assumed if cruise ships have trash, then they take that off the ship. And then, you know, they take that off the ship when they park. But are you saying that that doesn't always happen? There's a certain amount of dumping that's happening from cruise ships and tankers and stuff all the time. If a couple is struggling to get pregnant, how seriously should they think about reducing plastic exposure as part of the bigger picture? Well, number one, they should watch The Plastic Detox on Netflix, which follows six couples with unexplained infertility working through exactly that question. And, you know, spoiler alert, happy ending, right? If you ever want to get pregnant, if you ever want to biologically have your own children, you need to reduce your exposure and use of single-use plastics and, you know, the chemicals in plastic. And explain why, like, we're in fifth grade. So wearing athletic clothing, your body is absorbing the chemicals and the microplastics from those yoga pants, etc. Those chemicals, as I mentioned before, endocrine disruptors, number one, most, you know, important. Related to fertility, phthalates, visphenols, you know, flame retardants, all of those things affect your hormones and your endocrines, which are basically the conductor of a symphony of your body. So from, you know, inception through birth and development of children in the first two years in particular, and as, you know, childbearing age, your fertility is. So, like, they tell your body when to start growing, when to develop, when you develop, you know, when you go into puberty, all these kinds of things. And the chemicals in plastic change that score. They're changing it in ways that are, you know, male fertility is down 50% in the last 50 years. Yeah, like, how do you explain that, you know? Right. Besides it has to be something environmental. Right. Right. So Shauna Swan, the scientist in The Plastic Detox and in a new film that just premiered in London yesterday called Infertility, all about male infertility, talks about, you know, she also is the author of a book called Countdown to Sperm Count Zero, which we are heading to by, like, 2045, potentially. So, like, the future of the human race is dependent on us all working together, not just in this country across the aisle, but, like, globally. Yeah, globally, with international treaties, et cetera, to turn off the tap on plastic pollution. If you had a newborn tomorrow, what is the very first plastic exposure that you'd try to eliminate? Anything that goes in their mouth, number one. So bottles. Pacifiers. Glass bottles, natural rubber nipples, pacifiers, number one. Toys. So, you know, wood or metal, no paint. And all these things exist, but you, you know, not everyone can afford them. And that's one of the things we're working to try and change. You know, diapers. Obviously, there are many different diapers on the market. Are there any traditional diaper brands that you like and recommend, or only cloth? The European Union regulates and bans, like, you know, more than 10,000 chemicals that, you know, in this country it's, like, 11. Oh, yeah. Right? So there are European, you know, disposable diaper brands that are more regulated. I have a 14-year-old daughter. It's been a while since I've had to deal with this. But we have on our amazing staff a couple new moms and young people who are looking to get pregnant. We have a healthy baby guide, healthy pregnancy guides, you know, how to just get started. You know, these chemicals affect everybody, but in particular people who want to have children. And we should all have that right and not have it taken away from us by, you know, being impacted by all these things. So I think. Those are, like, the top. The bottles and the toys, the diapers, mattresses, crib mattresses. So Naturopedic is a company that's a coalition member and one that, you know, there's avocado. They are more expensive, right? People are often putting, you know, water-resistant or waterproof, you know, cases on their mattresses from babies, you know, having accidents, stuff like that. That's usually PVC, polyvinyl chloride that has phthalates. What do phthalates do? Phthalates make plastic soft, but they do a lot of things. But literally in the new research is showing that it's related to preterm births. And how does that affect a baby? I think the science is still being figured out, but we know enough that, you know, to not use these things or to act. You know, it's important to recognize that, you know, as the science still develops very specifically on the different health impacts, and the different parts of our body and what that all means, that we're, you know, using the precautionary principle, which also is used in Europe but not in this country, that we know enough that you need to be careful, right? And you need to act and you need to, you know, proceed with caution and do as much as you can to, you know, not increase what could potentially lead to ADHD or obesity or, you know, early cancers or other, you know, learning issues and those kinds of things. Because these chemicals… and plastics are connected, linked to all of those things. the two places i had to purge before moving in with my soon-to-be husband my closet and my bathroom cabinets the closet was devastating i may need therapy the bathroom was surprisingly pretty easy because years ago i'd already gone through the process of getting rid of a lot of my more toxic beauty products and replacing them with the dell natural cosmetics so instead of packing 20 half empty foundations that i never used i packed products that i actually loved their bronzing cream is one of my favorite summer products because it gives you natural warmth without looking fake their blue lagoon face balm is amazing if your skin gets dry from the sun and their loose foundation feels light and breathable when it's a thousand degrees outside plus if you've ever worried about ordering foundation online adele offers a personalized color matching service so they can help you find the perfect shade they're a 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those are so delicious that like you can literally only put a scoop of that in milk with ice and drink it and it is incredible i like the unflavored in my like more tropical fruit smoothie that's the one i use there but you know you're getting this whole first milking colostrum collected within the first four to six hours from grass-fed american cows when it's naturally richest in immunoglobulins and other bioactive and hair and recovery after workouts and before the internet starts typing angry comments yes the calves always get their share first cowboy only collects the surplus so it's always calf welfare before people unlike a lot of brands that strip their colostrum down into basically the skin milk version cowboy keeps it whole which is why it's fluffy creamy and packed with all the naturally occurring goodness go to cowboy colostrum.com use code alex25 for 25 off that's alex25 for 25 off at cowboy colostrum.com what's actually happening to diapers when we dispose them they're filling up the landfill they're being incinerated and turned into air particulate pollution leaching into the water table they don't like disintegrate no i mean that's the thing so plastic doesn't disintegrate part of how we got into this was my sister is an artist who was making work out of plastic because it it's so colorful and there's beautiful things printed on it and you can you know make them incredible collages and installations and and see some beauty and the same time it was starting to what she thought was disintegrate into smaller bits in the frames or you know in the pieces installations that she created and started talking to scientists about it they're like oh no it just breaks down into smaller and smaller bits it doesn't go away we learned that about polyester in your leggings when you're washing them over time yes that it gets worse and worse and worse it's not like because you just think i've had these forever there's probably it's probably all like worn down it's actually getting worse how it's breaking down in your dryer yeah well in your washing machine too so and there's a lot of people who are like oh my god there's now um filters for washing machines there's also things you can put in your dryer to help gather those microplastics really wait i don't know about this yeah um there's a few different ones i don't remember all the names but some of them are part of our coalition and we have pretty strong betting criteria for allowing groups to be you know businesses i would imagine to be part of our coalition you guys probably run that like the navy so you know but we need like washing machines to be built with it needs to be like a regulation that actually they have these filters and you know if we're still going to continue to have clothes that have all this in them i love these ideas i love the ideas that you have do children face a different risk from plastics compared to adults a hundred percent especially in the first thousand days first two years of a baby's life what do you mean babies are on the ground they're closer the dust dust you know particles you know what is in dust includes the microplastics and the nanoplastics and so they're closer to it the majority of their toys their clothes you know they're eating utensils all these things i mean you're bombarded with plastic stuff when you have a baby they also are growing the rates at which they are growing and their brains are developing is you know like if we kept growing at the rate that we did when we were infants like we would all be you know i don't know eight foot tall giants or something like that so they need more sustenance um and so they are absorbing everything right in the same way that they're learning and their bodies probably cannot detox like an adult now i mean their bodies are keeping everything they need everything right but they they need it even more and the ratios of things that what might have been clinically you know or approved by you know the fda or something like that is quote-unquote safe is for like an adult male right not for an infant so the you know the percentages the ratios the exposure is so much greater what is something that's exposing us to a lot of plastic in our day-to-day that nobody really expects the lining and paper cups so you're to go coffee in a paper cup even if you didn't drink through that plastic lid there is a thin lining of plastic protecting that cup from the plastic lid so you're not going to disintegrating. Same in all soda cans, right? So one of the things in the plastic detox film, and you can also find online and just watch, is somebody dipping like a soda can into some acid and pulling it out. And there you can see the thin plastic lining holding the soda. Why did we stop, you know, putting Coca-Cola in glass and stuff? Why did we switch to all this plastic? Well, in a lot of Latin America, it's still in glass, right? And then Mexican Coke is like considered hipster and is on like menus and fancy restaurants. And they don't have high fructose corn syrup, which I appreciate as well. I love to get a, that's like one of the times I'll drink soda, is if I go to a Mexican restaurant and they have Mexican Sprite in a glass bottle, I love to get that. Part of that is those are generally family run industries. So the collecting the bottles, the washing the bottles, returning the bottles, you know, it's all like franchise or whatever it is. It's like a franchise. It's not like Coke owns that. They own the syrup, right? They own the recipe. A lot of those family run companies, they support their communities. They support their families. You know, they want to keep all those different players supported and thriving. In this country, all the big sodas have been, you know, sold the idea that it's cheaper for them, not only to use high fructose corn syrup, but also to use plastic for, you know, all their distribution costs, et cetera. You know, it's not like Coke owns that. It's not like Coke owns you name it. Of the kinds of plastics that still have any kind of market value, it's the big liter soda bottles. Doesn't mean it's not still totally bad for our health and the planet and all of those things. Do you ever drink plastic bottled water? Not if I can help it. So yeah, like what do you do for traveling and going through airports or things like that? Yeah. So I always travel with my own reusable cups, insulated cup. This is a Perani cup. Women, a founder, female founder, she and her partner in Asheville, North Carolina. Swell makes incredible, you know, insulated bottles. Also a female founder. You know, I am one of those people who we refer to them as urban packers. If you go camping, you bring your own stuff. Yeah. So in the old days, people also used to travel around with their own fork and knife and napkin and stuff like that. And you do that? You have your own fork and knife? I have my own bamboo utensil set, right, to go wear. TOGO is also a coalition member. They've been around for a long time. I have a cloth napkin. I have a stainless steel straw. I have a colleague, the founder of The Last Plastic Straw, Jackie Nunez. She travels with titanium camping plates in her backpack all the time because it's like you never know where someone's going to offer you even a paper plate. And she just doesn't want to use any disposable single-use stuff. Yeah, that's incredible. And, you know, it just requires thinking and planning ahead. And that's really it. But I really do think in some ways, convenience, putting convenience above other things is really killing us. Why is it absolutely crucial to never microwave plastic? The same reason I talked about just endocrine disrupting chemicals. When you heat plastic, when you microwave plastic yourself, when you get takeout or delivery, Uber Eats, whatever, and it comes in plastic, hot food is put in your plastic or even styrofoam in some places. I mean, sometimes you can see that it even, melted the styrofoam a little bit. And your food actually tastes a little bit like styrofoam, which, you know, warning sign, don't eat that kind of thing. There is migration. There is interaction. Those microplastics and the chemicals in the plastics are going into your food. If you had a tomato sauce or pasta sauce and you put it in a plastic Tupperware container, right, it gets oily. It gets a little orange. It dyes it a little bit. You know, I don't know if anybody still does that. But if you have like that, that is an example of that. Transfer. It's being absorbed into the plastic. It's also the plastic is being absorbed into your food. And in particular, black plastics, black plastic. have some of, like, the worst heavy metals and things in them. Is it true that it's melted down electronics? Some of it can be. I mean, you know, we work with folks who do private individual testing of things. Made Safe Certified actually does, under non-disclosure agreements with businesses, test their products in independent labs for them because you have maybe so many subcontractors, you know, they may say that it doesn't have something in it, but you need to test and make sure. Gen Z is obsessed with DoorDash and Uber Eats to the extent that they're now doing payment plans to pay off their daily DoorDash. They're literally, like, putting it on layaway. I don't know if you know that. You can Klarna your DoorDash. It's absurd. Anyway, what is your message to Gen Z, who is literally DoorDashing? I'm not joking you. My Gen Z co-workers at the office every day, they're getting their food delivered hot. What is your message to them? I mean, that's a hard one. Because you're working hard, you don't have time necessarily to go out to eat, but going somewhere to eat and knowing the people who are preparing your food, you know, there are more and more places and there are pilots and hopefully there'll be bigger systems where it's a reusable container. A lot of them have started with reusable plastic containers. We advocate for reusable stainless steel containers, you know, like Tiffin's, like in India, you know, stackable, you know, containers, things like that. So, I mean, you can, if you develop a relationship with some of the places that you order from, be the person, for now, who is saying, here's my reusable, I'll drop it off, wash it off, you know, please put my food in that. But the other thing I'd say is we all, we, people need to know how to cook. Oh, 100%. Yeah, you need to know how to cook or pack your lunch. Yeah. But I'm thinking of like, they're getting that delivered, it's the hot food in the plastic. Take it out of the plastic immediately. Put it on, you know, a glass or ceramic plate or a container. Don't let it sit in there. How does plastic impact testosterone levels? The research is showing that sperm count is down 50% in the last 50 years. It is also affecting sperm motility, mobility, erectile dysfunction, anal, genital distance in babies, boys being born with, you know, basically things not all in the right place. All of those things are connected to testosterone, which is the hormone, which is affected by the endocrine system, that tells it when to work, when to expand, when, you know, triggers things. So I don't know the exact details of like, and the research may still be nascent on the direct correlation, but these things are all linked. I also wonder what that blanket is made out of when you have a baby at the hospital that every hospital gives you. I wonder what material that blanket is. Yeah, I mean, they feel like cotton. Yeah. I still have my daughters, but yeah, I think, you know, all the fuzzy, mushy fleece, blankets, pillows, stuffies, cushions, couches. Stuffed animals. Parents never think about stuffed animals with their kids. Yeah. And your pets. Yes. Pet toys. I try really hard to buy organic toys for my dog. I'm not all perfect, but. And their beds. Yep. Pet beds. So my dog, people think I'm crazy, but my dog only drinks out of glass bottled water. Like I have like stuff like this sitting out by his bowl and that's what he drinks. He never has tap, and he doesn't drink plastic bottled water. So people think I'm nuts, but I just try as best as I can to treat my dog the same way I would treat myself or my kids as far as what he's eating and exposed to, you know, cleaning products in the home, all that kind of stuff. And I know people think that's really extra, and maybe it is, but that's fine. I'm willing to live with that. I mean, we installed home house filters, and I wanted to do it for a long time. It's expensive, like from where the water comes into your home. I mean, having your lead pipes replaced. You know, there was money in the previous administration to replace lead pipes across the country. Some of that money is still out there and being, you know, implemented. But, you know, in the six months before your pipes are replaced or, you know, the whole time before your pipes are replaced, during pipe replacement, for six months afterwards, you need to be additionally filtering the water in your home. And even when you shower, what's in your water is being aerated and you're breathing it in. So primarily. What you eat and drink and cook with, you need to, you know, filter. But thinking about, like, our whole system and the, you know, the entire network of pipes in this country, like, a lot of those lead pipes are being replaced with polyvinyl chloride pipes, PVC pipes, plastic pipes. The train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio, a few years ago, that train was filled with PVC, with polyvinyl. Wow. So it was like a double whammy. And that community is, you know. You know, sick. Very. Yep. I've not forgotten about that. Here's a challenge. Go grab the prenatal vitamins sitting in your cabinet right now. Flip it over. Read the ingredient list. 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If you guys have been following me at all in the past year, how passionate I am about the glyphosate problem in this country and how sick it is making us and it is wrecking our gut health. Every ingredient in a Prima protein bar actually has a job, and you don't need Google Translate to read the label. Everybody's arguing about keto and carnivore and paleo and poo-poo-doo-poo. Honestly, I don't have the energy anymore. My philosophy is simple. Eat food your great-grandparents would recognize. That is why Prima is the only protein bar that works. For me. Go to eatprima, E-T-P-R-I-M-A dot com. Use code AlexClark20 for 20% off your first order. That is AlexClark20 for 20% off at eatprima, E-T-P-R-I-M-A dot com. You can also find Prima bars at Sprouts, Kroger, King Soopers, and Ralph's Nationwide. I think this is one of the craziest concepts in modern health. What is an obesogen? Similarly, in talking about endocrine disruption and these capsules, there are chemicals that cause you to become obese or make you fatter. The disruption of your hormones by certain chemicals can not only link to autism and cancer and infertility, but they're also linked to obesity. So plastics and obesogens can be found in fragrance as well, I believe. Plastics, fragrance could be literally making us fat. They are all linked. Why should people never ever. Why should people never ever buy their clothes from Amazon or Shein? People shouldn't buy clothes that are synthetic. We should be all searching for and, you know, supporting cotton, if you can afford it, organic cotton, natural materials, linen, silk, right? Expensive. But things, there's lots of different versions of kind of bass materials, hemp and things like that, that are, you know, and people used to wear all this all the time. This is what we're talking about. This is what we wore before all these petrochemicals were being turned into thread and fabrics. The clothes that you buy from fast fashion outlets are predominantly made with those petrochemical-based materials or entirely made from those. They are not only themselves, you know, toxic, but they're finished with. Like, you should always wash new clothes before you wear it, especially underwear, because in order to make it, like, look the best to. Come to market, they finish them with additional chemicals. I didn't know that. And they're often packaged in individual plastic bags as well, even when they're sent to clothing stores to be sold in retail. People behind the scenes in retail are ripping everything out of, like, plastic bags to put up on a hanger. When people buy these, like, super cheap clothes, like Shein and stuff, where do they typically end up? There's enough clothes on this planet already to, like, I think, clothe all the people. for like more than a few years, right? I mean, the majority of fast fashion is, if it's even worn, worn maybe once or a few times, often falls apart much more quickly and gets thrown away or donated and ends up in, you know, other countries in the global south. You can see film footage, you know, photographs of massive piles of landfilled clothing. They are mountains. Those are mountains. And sometimes they catch on fire. And, you know, so then they're burning molten plastic mountains. People live next to those, you know, mountains of our clothes and trash. And people, there's an entire informal community of what are referred to as waste pickers who go through those mounds to find things that they can resell or that have some value to help support themselves and their families. OK, I want to talk about something that I genuinely think. It's one of the biggest corporate PR campaigns of my lifetime, which is recycling. If I rinse out my yogurt container and then I separate my plastics and I put everything in a blue bin because I think I'm doing the right thing, what actually is happening next? Well, it depends on where you live, because in the United States, every town, every city, every community has its own recycling. And the majority of plastic is not recycled. What is considered recycled is generally downcycled or incinerated or shipped to another country. Recycling for metals, for paper, for aluminum even, glass, those things have super high recycling rates and are worth the taxpayer dollar and energy and effort to sort them. And have them be transformed back into, you know, a glass bottle can be turned into a glass bottle again. A plastic bottle is not turned back into a plastic bottle again. I wouldn't want to eat or drink out of anything with recycled plastic anyway. As we've discussed, all these other things that are in it only get compounded as well. So I think, you know, it's some of the most cited studies about plastic recycling are, you know, less than 10 percent. There are some. There are some researchers who think in this country it's less than 5 percent of all plastics are quote unquote recycled. So when you're in an airport and they've got that trash can thing separated with the different holes. I mean, is there actually different trash cans or is it all going into the same trash? Because I just think it's all it's like a fake, like you like I'm sticking something in one slot and then some guys coming and it's all being put in the same dumpster. It's going to the same landfill. Am I right or wrong? They're definitely. Stories of that happening. And as I said, I think it really depends on what city or where you are. But yes, I think it is not a system that really has a lot of trust right now. What is the truth about that little triangle that we see on the bottom of plastic bottles? Yes. That triangle is a resin code. So those numbers are about the type of plastic. It doesn't mean it's recyclable or will be recycled. It means that. That that is PET or a different kind of plastic. But why is that the whole symbol for recycling? Lobbying by the, you know, by industry to have that be the symbol. There's litigation happening across the country about if something can't be recycled or isn't actually recycled or certain percentage of it doesn't get recycled. You can't give people a false sense. I mean, it's greenwashing, right? It's entirely greenwashing to give people a sense that that. If it has a, you know, a triangle with a number in the middle of it means that it can be recycled. Did plastic manufacturers know decades ago that most plastic was never realistically going to be recycled? It was never designed to be reused. There's an incredible study, not study, you know, report and quotes from people in the beginning of the days of promoting plastic that like they're going to make money by people throwing this away. You know, like the future. The future is in the trash can. The future is trash. If plastic was never designed to be recycled completely or efficiently, then why were consumers being told that recycling was the answer? You know, the fake crying Indian by the side of the road as someone throws something out of their car window. Yeah. Wait, that's a sham? It's an evil strategy. It was an entirely a marketing strategy. Explain that. There's a. Amazing piece. And we have a blog on our Web site all about this. It's called a beautiful if evil strategy. And that by putting the onus on the individual that companies could get away with basically, you know, poisoning us and, you know, selling us products that are not in our own self-interest, let alone not in our community self-interest. I mean, all their costs are being externalized. Our taxpayer dollars are paying for not only the recycling. The recycling sham of plastic, but the health impacts. We're funding our own demise. Yes. One hundred percent. Is there any plastic that people should bother recycling? Well, so people who make money off of recycling will tell you that, like, I think it's maybe number two. I don't remember exactly that, you know, the soda bottles that can be turned into fleece, which people are still buying lots of that. Those things have market value in most markets, but in general, not. I mean, it is wish cycling. Right. But, you know, for the other materials, 100 percent, we should all be doing that. And that is beneficial and works. But it doesn't mean that we should still be buying. We need to stop buying stuff in plastic. We need to stop making stuff in plastic. We need to stop making so much plastic. We need to literally turn off the tap. Yeah. When the tub is overflowing, you know, you don't just, like, mop it up as it, you know, flows out. You literally need to turn off the tap. I hear about plants. I hear about the plant-based plastic. Is that good? It really depends. So there's a lot of regenerative materials like seaweed, algae, mushroom, mycelium, et cetera, that are promising. And there are companies using and making alternatives or replacements for plastic. We have a whole report on it, and a lot of those companies are part of our coalition. Notpla won the Earthshot Prize, N-O-T-P-L-A. They're using algae as a plastic replacement. But what is the majority of, quote, unquote, bioplastics? Well, bioplastics, they're just using a different base material, so whether it's coming from corn versus petrochemical oil and gas. But then they're adding a bunch of these same other chemicals to it. Yeah, so it's greenwashed. It's greenwashed. What about compostable forks? Same thing. Okay, so don't compost those. Well, it depends on which ones. I mean, the regulations about how you label something and what is compostable, there's something called the green guides that haven't – they're supposed to be updated every 10 years. They haven't been updated in more than 12 years. 12 years now. That is all about, like, that kind of greenwashing. But if it's, you know, wood or bamboo or entirely made from some natural material, it could be compostable. Cities are spending, like, massive amounts of taxpayer money collecting and sorting recycling. If so much plastic isn't actually being recycled, then why are cities still asking us to pay for this? Well, as I said, the other material. The other materials are definitely worth it. But there's still – there's a cost that could be cut with the literal plastic part, right? Sure. But, I mean, as long as we're still all using it and putting it in, you know, our recycling bins and it, you know, is projected to grow. Like, we're already producing, like, 400 million tons of plastic pollution a year, and that's supposed to triple by, like, 2060, right? I mean, we're already drowning in plastic right now. And the projections of how much more will be produced and used are going to triple. Like, we need answers. Part of what happened in this country right before the pandemic was that China said they're going to stop taking our plastic trash. We were sending it to China? So those tankers that would come from China with all the plastic crap that people were buying would be sent back filled with plastic garbage. And what were they doing with it? Most of it, they were incinerating it. And then people breathed that in. Yeah. Maybe that's why they have all that crazy smog and pollution over their city. You know how they have the worst pollution? Well, they stopped taking it, what was called the green sword. They, like, put down the sword, like, we're not going to take your trash anymore. Other countries in the world are, and there's a whole entire illegal trade in our plastic trash. What do you mean illegal trade? Illegal trade. Like, which country or company or somebody in some other country around the world is willing to accept a bail or, you know, a ship load of our plastic pollution? Why would they want that? Because in some places you can still make some money off of certain parts of it. Like third world countries. But then those people are suffering. Yeah. This is crazy. I hope you have good news at the end. Well, that's why there is a global plastics treaty being negotiated. Now, it continues to be delayed. The U.S. had played more of a leadership role, has pulled out. There are over 100 other countries around the world who are willing. to lay down a global law that goes upstream that helps turn off the tap. So let's talk about this because I know for a fact there are a lot of legislators from different states that listen to the show, a lot of politicians that listen to the show, people in Congress, etc. On a state level, what would be some ideas or lawsuits even that could be put in place that could help this problem? So state is where it's at, right? Local communities. When we started, the most popular page on our website was how to do a plastic bag ban in my own community. Great. Like at grocery stores? At grocery stores. Well, just your whole town. Like no more plastic bags being used by the grocery store, any stores, everybody. Like stop the plastic bags. And that exploded to the point that there are now preemptive banning of bans on plastic bags and some other items. So unfortunately, some legislators took it upon themselves or were supported to ban bans. Because I'm sure the plastics industry was funding their campaigns. 100%. Of course, yeah. Right. So those are now being contested. Hopefully, some of those make it to state Supreme Courts or higher to overturn that. I mean, even if you're a libertarian, like you don't want a preemptive banning of bans. You may not like any bans at all, but are you going to say we're going to ban doing any bans? It's a whole convoluted thing. But a lot of states are pushing for extensive bans. And I think that's a big part of the problem. I think that's a big part of the problem. It's an extended producer responsibility, EPR laws, which basically are the polluter pays. So that, you know, the former head of Unilever even was quoted as saying, sometimes I think we're in the plastic trash business or the plastic packaging business. Like they sell all their products in, you know, plastic packaging. So it's like, it's not even so much about what's in the bottle. It's all these bottles. But if you require companies to have to have a plan and a system to take back the plastic packaging, then it's a big problem. And I think bottles, that changes the incentives. That changes the game. Okay, I love that idea. And you know, the other thing is when it comes to conventional farming, pigs and stuff are a lot of times eating those wrappers, like plastic trash. That's what they're being fed, like Twinkie wrappers. Our soil, our agriculture system uses plastic sheeting. What? Yeah, plastic sheeting is a core part of agriculture. What should they be doing instead? Hemp, jute, natural materials that truly biodegrade and are not breaking down into micro nanoplastics and being part of our soil and affecting the soil health for everything we grow. I mean, there's research now that shows that like plants are literally uptaking those nanoplastics into the plant. What would be the counter argument to people like you who want to limit plastic production? Like what's the other side saying to you? Like of why your ideas are bad? I mean, there's incredible, incredible uses of plastic, right? Plastic saves lives, right? And in the short term, sure. There's lots of, I mean, your phone, your car, medical supplies, a lot of stuff in hospitals are made from plastic. I mean, we used to use glass IV bags and rubber tubing. That's all plastic. Rubber gloves, face masks during the pandemic. I mean, there's a lot of things that, you know, are made from plastic. There's a lot to be said about reusable plastics being, you know, more helpful in many ways, which is why, you know, when we started 17 years ago, in addition to like saying, refuse single-use plastic and calling it what it is, we're talking about, you know, all this stuff on the daily basis, like those coffee cups, those bags, the straws, right? The straws are a small piece of the puzzle, but they're kind of the key that unlocks the bigger picture, right? It's a very easy thing to say, like, you know, straw, please, or for a restaurant to just have them on demand or to have ones made of other materials. And there are ones that last and that work better than others. So, and stainless steel ones are, you know, last forever. Are we subsidizing the plastics industry? The entire plastics industry is subsidized to, well, prop up a dying industry in certain ways as more people move towards, I mean, as I said before, that plastics is plan B for the petrochemical industry. 99% of plastics are made. What's plan A? Plan A is selling oil and gas for cars and ships and planes. Oh, but that's changing as people do these electric vehicles and stuff? Yeah. And find other sources of energy or develop other sources of energy. So that entire industry is subsidized. And they're mad because we're getting rid of food dyes. Food dyes are made from those, too. That same petrochemicals. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, that, so all of the things that are made from that source material and that source industry are part of what is subsidized and they are a core part of plastic. So. What are your favorite books or movies or documentaries about everything we've talked about? Plastics, recycling, clothing. We have coalition members. We have people that are very involved in the fashion industry. And one of them wrote a book called Unraveled. So highly recommend that. There's actually legislation in a couple of different states about fast fashion as well. The Plastic Detox we talked about, you know, new movie out on Netflix. 100%. There's also the story of plastic that came out a while ago. Pre-pandemic was shown on Discovery Channel in, I don't know, 100 countries around the world for Earth Day. It is literally like this. The whole background story of plastic that I've described a little bit. There's a new film that just came out called Infertility about men's infertility in particular. Books, Thicker Than Water by Erica Serino, who is our communications manager. Award winning, beautifully written, incredible book about, you know, the solutions as well as the problem. But really that like the solutions exist. Not only are there policy and regulatory things we can do, but there are products and companies. That they need our subsidies. They need our support. They need our investment. And the regulations need to be changed so that they're not being held back or thwarted as well. One thing this audience is obsessed with is lists of like what to buy, where to go, what to do, stuff like that. And you've said you have a lot of that. So what is the website they need to go to for these resources? So Plastic Pollution Coalition is our website. We have guides for, you know, things to buy room by room. So what we refer to. And are labeled as kind of plastic free baby or, you know, healthy baby guide or healthy pregnancy guide or really just healthy living guides. And they go room by room through your house and they have links and references to different products and companies. We also have a guide to getting started. And Grove Collaborative, who's a partner on the Plastic Detox, has a whole website. The majority of that stuff is all better than your typical stuff. Some of it still has some plastic there. There are definitely pain points for these companies that things they're trying to solve. Like the plastic pump, you know, little things. Oh, yeah. Still get in, you know, that are really hard to replace. I guess you could do metal. Yeah. There are aluminum pumps, too. But, you know, there's room for lots of great innovation and it's happening. And there are amazing young people, you know, in school right now or just working to develop, you know, bigger, broader solutions. Awesome. I ask every guest this to end the show. If you could offer one remedy to heal a sick culture, it could be physically, emotionally. Or spiritually, what would that remedy be? Slow down, cook your own food, buy and grow, if you can, things that you eat from farmers or farmer's markets. I think really taking the time to take care of ourselves in that way. Like there's a cost for the convenience of plastic. And so buying less and cooking food from real stuff. As Michael Pollan says. Like eat real food, not too much, you know, all of that. Those things are key. Like that would be my number one. That's excellent. Julia, thank you so much for coming on Culture Apothecary. Thank you for having me. If you leave this episode remembering just one thing, let it be this. We have spent decades asking what plastic is doing to the planet. Maybe it's finally time that we started asking what it's doing to us. New episodes come out every Monday and Thursday at 6 p.m. Pacific. 9 p.m. Eastern, wherever you get your podcasts. Please leave us a five-star review on Apple or Spotify to support the show. This is a really big one to share to every single person you know and on your Instagram story. This content is for informational purposes only and is not intended to be taken as medical advice. Always consult with a qualified healthcare professional regarding any questions or decisions related to your health or medical care. I'm Alex Clark and this is Culture Apothecary.