The Great Indian (Modern) Family - with Gloria Burrett - (un)Parent

Intro It becomes the way you are parented. The way I am parented begins to be an internal pattern which I draw upon when I become a parent or I have to care. Speaker 2 Are we parenting consciously or unconsciously? Speaker 1 I love the words conscious and unconsciously. Speaker 3 Yeah. Speaker 1 Because that's what we are attempting to make the unconscious conscious. So we have more choices then. Speaker 3 You know, I have to say, having my son has been by far my biggest motivator to look into self-care. And I don't mean aesthetic self-care. I mean to genuinely look inward and to genuinely become a better human. Speaker 1 They came to me and the father said look what I do as a dad. I get up in the morning, I take it my kids doing mechano. I teach him how to read and the kid was saying I'm up to there. I'm suffocated and my mom saying how do I get my husband to back off? So I asked the dad, this is the way you're loving your kid? He said, yeah, this is love. And I said, how were you loved? And he said, that's it. My father was never there for me. So the only way I know of really giving love to my my child is to compensate for what I didn't get, not realizing that your son is not. Speaker 4 You my mom was the perfectionist heart task master and my dad was easy. Like, you know, I think a lot of dads get away with being easy, I feel like. Speaker 2 I see you're describing the parenting dynamic in my house. Hi everyone and welcome to Unparent. I'm Gethi and I have with me my Co host Ravneet and our in house expert, even though she hates us using that terminology Nanki. And today we're discussing the modern Indian family. What is it like raising children in contemporary India and how has it differed from the past? And we have with us a very exciting guest, but I'm going to let Nanki do the honours. Speaker 4 So we have Gloria Barrett here with us, very, very happy to have her here with us. She is a child and adolescent psychotherapist. And I think as far as any other aspect of introduction is concerned, I would let her pearls of wisdom that are going to be coming into the session speak for itself. She's a supervisor. She has years of clinical experience that she brings to the conversation today. And we look forward to learning from you. Speaker 1 And vice versa. Speaker 2 Yeah, we're definitely looking because Rivneet and I, we say this quite often. We we're both mums. In fact, we met each other through our babies, through our babies. And we probably going to repeat the story on this podcast many, many times. But we are just surrounded by these conversations and parenting and raising our children and are we doing it right, Whatever right means. So I think we're very excited to have this conversation with the two of you to try and get like some actual insight into child development and families today and what India looks like today. But let's please hear from you a little bit. Gloria, let, can you introduce yourself to our audience? Oh. Speaker 1 Gosh, I thought Yanki done that. I mean. Speaker 4 I did my best. Speaker 3 Just a little bit about your experience, if that's OK. Speaker 1 What do I say? So experience Vista, a school looking at kids in school, connecting with with development and issues that came up from schools and also in through via private practice. But I have to say my deepest learning of being of parenting actually came from my dad, who when he had Alzheimer's and he became something that somebody I, I had to look after someone I had to look after. And a lot of the theory that I had earlier held onto and learnt through parents like you just came alive for me. Speaker 2 That's so interesting how that actually happens, where you go from being the person that your parents have cared for. Speaker 3 To being the best. Speaker 2 Yeah, to care for your parents and does, I mean, in your experience, does the quality of care that you receive as a child, does that influence the quality of care that you probably give to your parent? The quality of care you receive as a child influences the quality of care you give to your parent Is there a link? Speaker 1 I would say hugely. Speaker 2 Absolutely. Speaker 1 Because I I think Nanki would back me up on this. Speaker 4 It's so meaningful that you bring that in. I mean, they have a context of course, because I often in that acknowledgement, I didn't complete the sentence that while I've not biologically become a parent, I think there are multiple spaces where you can potentially play a parent role. And I think I can safely say that I have played that role for three out of four of the members of my family. And similar to Gloria, and it teaches you so much. I call it, you know, the caregiver mindset, which is my own theoretical hypothesis because I keep coming up with my own theories. But it is it's, it's how you caregive and it is almost always directly related to the caregiving you received. So it opens up and I don't think you become a parent only biologically, I think psychologically. Speaker 2 Absolutely. Speaker 4 There are shifts that that you experience when you are put into those roles and then what what happens to you because of that is So, yeah, thank you for bringing that in. Speaker 1 So I'll put it this way, it becomes the way you are parented. The way I am parented begins to be an internal pattern which I draw upon when I become a parent or I have to care in a certain. Speaker 2 Way and that's probably what's happened to then even Rivneet and I as our role in our role as mothers there is. So I wanted to ask this question at one point, you know, are we parenting consciously or unconsciously? Are we parenting consciously or unconsciously? And where is the distinction between the two? Because there, I mean, I had a great childhood, let me put it like that. But at the same time, I recognized that there were certain limitations in my parents circumstances that have probably impacted me today and even me as a child. Am I somewhere drawing on my experiences unconsciously from the way I was parented and how I'm parenting my children? How does that? Speaker 1 Work. Yeah, I love the word. I love the words conscious and unconscious. Speaker 3 Yeah. Speaker 1 Because that's what we are attempting to make the unconscious conscious. So we have more choices then. So it's, it's not about, oh that I, I, what I haven't learnt, I must now do. It's about just widening the repertoire. When you bring in something from the unconscious, you have choice. Do I want to say it this way or not? Otherwise you're on a compulsive kind of drive of doing it automatically. But I, I also have parents who then begin to be so conscious that it begins to be right and wrong. And I have to be conscious all the time. And I just want to tell parents, you know, cut yourself some slack and say there's no way you're going to be perfect. There's not a single parent who's perfect. Speaker 2 We need to remember this. Speaker 3 Yeah, when one of the many meltdowns happened, then yeah, I definitely think. Speaker 4 So, but that's why Vinnicott is so important. I love him. I love Donald Vinnicott. He was a pediatrician actually, and he subsequently went into becoming a child psychoanalyst where he worked with children alongside their moms and families. And as he's written multiple books. So I highly recommend that to any parent because it teaches you a lot about the child. It just teaches you a lot about the internal world of the child. And he introduced the term good enough parent. And I've actually used it as an intervention in some of my parenting sessions where, you know, there is this good and there's bad. And as Gloria just described, anxiety tends towards paranoia. Where am I doing this right? Am I doing this wrong? And I'm like, you're just doing enough. Yeah. And just that term enough changes the game. It just changes the game. Speaker 2 You know, I think it's because of our generation as well. I feel like our parents generation and I don't want to make a sweeping statement, but at least my parents, I don't think they really thought about like the impact of their parenting. They just you know, they were like, let's go with the floor. The. Speaker 1 Kids. Parents. My mom says that. Speaker 3 No, no, please make a sweeping statement. 100% right, 100% in. Speaker 2 Fact when you challenge their parenting a little bit now, because our generation is so much more self aware, maybe to a fault, like you said, we're so preoccupied with getting it right that we are maybe even operating out of a place of anxiety as a result. But when you challenge them then they're like, you know what we gave you a great childhood. What are you talking about? Why are you nitpicking? You know, why are you making this a big deal? Like you are fine, you've grown up perfectly OK. And we have of course, and you know, kids are also resilient. We are resilient, we adapt. But maybe because we recognize the impact of their parenting on us to such a great degree, because we are a more self aware generation, we have way more access to therapy. And you know, it's of the it's, it's, it's part of a lot of people's self-care, right? Like just accessing a therapist and getting that awareness about yourself, because we're so conscious of it. Maybe we're also a little bit more paranoid of the impact that our parenting is having on our children. So I definitely do it. I really overthink sometimes that, you know, is what is the repercussion of this decision that I'm taking, you know, maybe being too easy with like how many treats she gets to have, like something from the small parenting decisions to the large ones. I do tend to think about the impact that that might have like 10 years from now or 20 years from now. But I wanna, I'm gonna answer my own question here. I saw a video by Gabo Marti and somebody asked him that question. They were like, how do we know we're doing it right? And his response was, you don't know. But the fact that you're asking that question, the fact that you're so concerned with wanting to do it right makes you a better parent, not better. I don't think he used the word makes you good, makes you a good parent. Speaker 3 It makes you a good parent for. Speaker 4 A good enough parent? Good enough parent. Speaker 1 Thank you. Let's hold that into your vocabulary. Good enough? Speaker 2 Good enough parent. I think that is going to be one of the mantras of not just this episode, but maybe the entire season that let's just focus on good enough parenting. Speaker 1 Let's look at it this way, huh? Imagine you did no wrong as a parent. No wrong every every day. You could have gave yourself all the ticks. What is your child learning about making a mistake about, you know, frustration tolerance about getting it wrong and then coming back after getting it wrong? So, so much modelling in getting it wrong. So much modelling in how you apologize. So much modelling in saying, yeah, adults can also goof off, you know, how much modelling is that? And about resilience, you know, doing it wrong and then not beating yourself up and saying, OK, tomorrow I'll start again. Kids need to learn that. Otherwise they're going to follow the whole rigid orientation of perfection. Yeah, you know, so get it wrong. Speaker 4 I actually think perfection or the ideal of perfection is a lot more harmful than I can say that because very similar to Gloria, what she just said. I think in my own therapy, what I became aware of and part of my training that I had very different attachment styles with my mom and with my dad. You know, two very similar relationships are blessed to have had great parenting, good enough, parenting good enough. But my mom was the perfectionist hard taskmaster and my dad was easy. Like, you know, I think a lot of dads get away with being. Speaker 2 Easy like this. You're describing the parenting dynamic in my house. Speaker 4 But I think what what I realized only after I grew up and of course I was privileged enough to be doing what I do. And I became aware of the fact that her voice, her perfectionistic voice, became my internal voice in how I speak to myself. And that takes a lot of undoing. And then it didn't help that I went to a school like DPSRK Puram, which was. Speaker 3 Which rewarded perfectionism. School just rewarded perfectionism. Speaker 4 And only in one part of your life. Yeah, and. Speaker 3 You were not, luckily. Speaker 4 I got it. I I was lucky in that department, but sitting every Monday giving that test, giving it in a perfect way. Speaker 3 Years and years and years. Speaker 4 It does. It really shapes your mind and achievement became a the predominant script in. Speaker 3 All our lives. Speaker 4 Yeah, how I describe myself as perfect. So I think it's very important for parents to remember that how they use that word perfect or how they kind of even dictate it to themselves is likely going to be whether you like it or not, you are you are role modelling for your child. Yeah, they are going to take it on. They are just and how you speak to yourself and them is going to be how they speak to themselves. Speaker 3 You know, I have to say, having my son has been by far my biggest motivator to look into self-care. And I, and I don't mean aesthetic self-care. The importance of self-care I mean to genuinely look inward and to genuinely become a better human being. It has been the single most powerful driving force for me because you know, you have a kid and you're just like, here's this person that you can't explain that love, right? You can't. I'm just like, my heart is going to explode. Like all those cliches are actually true. And it's not like it happened to me the first second it happened, you know, you know, Sabar was preterm. The whole I was so distraught at that time. So it's not like I'm looking at this lump. That's my baby COVID and my grandparents had died like I was a wreck. And you know, it's not like I looked at him in that second and I was like, Oh my God, my world has changed. No, but in the in the subsequent weeks, that force that you feel from the inside, it's unlike anything else I've ever felt in my entire life. And I've never felt a bigger pull towards wanting to be better because I understand how much that impacts my kid. And I think that this is, I think that this is the biggest service I can do to him as a mum is to try and be a better person because as you say, they're, they're watching everything. Speaker 1 It's beautiful. Speaker 2 That is really beautiful, but you know when he's 14, you're not going to be that cool. Speaker 3 Oh, he's going to tell me like, oh, we're going to be watching from the outside. I think we have to be there, hosted at home. He's going. Speaker 2 To be like, mom, go away. No, but let's talk a little bit about this episode, right? We're going to be talking about the modern Indian family. Speaker 4 The great Indian modern the. Speaker 2 Great modern Indian family Bananki, I want you to just explain because this was your, you know, you, you felt strongly about like this episode title. And I think that stems from some of your clinical experience with just the family dynamics that you're encountering and the impact that is having on today. Let's just hear from you first and then let's get Gloria's input on her experience as well on why are we discussing the great modern Indian family. Speaker 3 And then Gethi and I will have many feelings. Speaker 4 Sure. So I think it is very it's as much part of my personal story, of course, at a time where joint family was the predominant format for families. I grew up in a nuclear family. And I guess a lot of it was also to do with the fact that my father previous to that was an Army officer. So you know, when you get posted, in fact, fun fact, my mom married my dad because he was in the Army and she never wanted to live in a joint family. So she had her priorities, right. I mean, I always heard about that. But so that that was my normalized, that's what I thought every family is like until I grew up. And I was again blessed to have been surrounded by great friends who are still my friends. And then I realized how their families are actually not nuclear. So that was my first real realization that, oh, you know, families can be different. And when there are multiple generations living in the same house, actually your experience of growing up is very different, you know, And then of course, I, I trained to, I, I was initially working as a school counselor And over there, the clinical experience was very different. And I became exposed to children who would be psychologically bonded as parents to their grandparents because the parents are so they're just so pressurized by having to work and get those funds for the school fee. And this and child welfare is expensive and that was the first time that I became aware of the fact that whether we like it or not, the extended family comes into the room when working with children in a psychotherapeutic capacity. And as my interest grew, of course, when I went to the Anna Freud Centre, I was, I mean, my clinical observations were very much to do with children in external settings and then thinking about how it shapes their internal world. And the, the, the developmental theory that I learned over there is pretty much that journey, that psychic journey that a child must travel to develop. And it can only happen in the context of a family, in the context of an A developed psychologically developed adult figure. And what is the role of the mother? What is the role of the father? That's when I read a lot of Vinnie Got and it just became a logical transition when I returned to also train for what we call systemic therapy and family therapy couple and family therapy. So how it all came together in the consulting room is I have I now work with children in a way that I do not know how to think of. Maybe that's to a fault. I do not know how to think of a child's development outside of that, outside of the systems that surround that child. The importance of power in child development And that includes school, that includes the larger social, cultural, political context as well. And family becomes the first unit, you know, and parents become symbolic of all those other systems that we are part of, which is caste, colour, religion, all of it organized by one thing, which is power. Yes. And how that becomes central to a child's identity development as he or she is entering into new life stages, I think has been a revelation and continues to be. Speaker 2 So can you expand upon that a little bit? Because that's interesting to me. Power, meaning how that child has to manoeuvre and navigate, control and power from all these different, you know, sort of pillars, let's say, of the child's societal framework. Speaker 4 I think it begins with, I mean, since you asked me what I see in terms of types of families, I guess Gloria would have something to add to that. I think we're in a time where there is a huge transition in society. Huge. I mean, it's so much that it's definitely overwhelming for me. I mean, I grew up at a time, I'm not that old, but I grew up at a time where television was fast changing into color television. And there were Walkmans and now, you know, we have reached Spotify. So the the from the technological, technological innovation to is, is actually it's mirroring how much change has happened. And I remember when I was working as a counsellor in Shivnagar, I was like, you know, there is school and there is family and now there's technology. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have very strong teams and a lot of, again, anxiety. Yeah, this is a good question. Are we operating from anxiety or a place of knowledge? Yeah. But, you know, yeah, social media like. Speaker 3 70% anxiety, 30% knowledge. Speaker 2 We need to make that a little more. Yeah, I. Speaker 3 100% agree but OK Charo, I will even give us 60% anxiety and 40% knowledge. But the anxiety is winning at this point, at this. Speaker 2 Point, that's why we need this podcast. But Gloria, let's hear from you a little bit as well because you know you have such vast experience. The role of technology in childhood development You've been in this profession now for so long. You've obviously seen India change also. Can you just take us a little bit through like what is the role of technology in, in childhood development today? How are family is even changing? How is, what are, are there any, is your profession different today in terms of like the kind of issues that you're encountering or the kind of challenges that you're encountering versus let's say 1520 years? Speaker 1 Ago so I don't know how how detail I can be about the shifts, but let's put it this way. I'll give you an analogy first. OK, imagine pre G20 and pre A shared games and what else have we had in this country? Pre Metro. Metro. OK, yeah, imagine that you were asked to go from Delhi to Gurgaon. You had a map. Now suddenly that map doesn't work. OK, GPS is outdated. So suddenly there's a fly over where there was a no fly over. Suddenly there's a dead end where there used to be a wonderful U-turn. That's the analogy that I have now for parenting. That's having said that I also don't want to say everything is shifted. Some things have stayed constant and some things have shifted. What shifted in the terrain is this whole thing called technology where children now no longer parents don't longer know more than kids. If you if you look at it that. Speaker 4 Way can I add to that? Sorry I'm interrupting you, but what I actually want to say is that the the pace at which the external world has changed and is changing is not congruent to the pace at which the internal worlds are changing and hence the larger collective called the family. So while we are modern in many ways, I really want us to think about the Indian family and the shifting shades of that Indian family. What those roles and structures of the two parents look like 30 years ago look like today, How we use, how does technology plug into those roles and structures in assisting parenting? But are we overusing them? And I have examples to give which I will come to. But yeah, I think that's, that's my take on it. I just think the paces are different. Speaker 1 Yeah, so I'll keep it simple. So where does a parent get the authority from? From knowing more, from living more, from more experience. Today that's shifted. So the minute a child comes in and asks the parents something or the parents says something, says no, that that's wrong, I've just researched it. So what does that do to the parent? Suddenly you find roles reversed. Suddenly you find there you talk about power, who has the power what, what defines power in terms of knowledge, all of that. I, I, I know people whose kids at this age are creating their own money through through social media. So slowly the, the what the parent depends upon to feel good and valued. That's shaken now that's 111 aspect of it. Social Media What else did I want to say? Something about social media, I think has also been blacklisted unnecessarily. So we need it, but when we, when we start it, I, I think just as a, you don't put a child in a car and say drive. I think what we, what we lack in terms of preparation is to say this is something new. How do we help our kids learn to use it? I learn to use it wisely. And so I don't, I think we're in AI think it's that balance between it's not bad, it's not excellent. How do I as a parent get involved so that it works to my child's favour and our favour, Right. And so there's lots of stuff written about how to get the best out of social media, you know, how to how to get the worst of it. But I'm going to bring in something called parental presence very often when when very often a parent can give something across and then back off. Now when you back off, then you're not even aware of what's happening, right? I feel there's a very, very important balance, which we call the parental presence. Be aware, know, ask, connect so that even if social media is going a little haywire, you are on ball. You, you know what's happening, you can create those dialogues. So it's, it's about being present. It's about not just saying seeing it as bad or good. It's about training your kid how to use, you know, really, I believe that having a learner's license 1st and then moving into that. Speaker 3 So you don't think with social media, is that it? The way it's being used by different generations changes, right? And what I fear is that what if I'm not? What if I'm not adept enough at helping him maneuver social media and I think I'm teaching him to use it the right way, but it's not the right way. Firstly, because you know, whenever Gethi and I have discussed social media and 100% this answer is out of fear that we're like no blanket rule till 16, no social media and we definitely don't want it till that age. But actually that's also from your. Speaker 2 Perspective, we have the control. I mean I have a four year old and I actually have very little control, control in the conventional sense of the term. And it was maybe even a goal of my parenting for my 4 year old not to fear me. So in fact, I haven't, like you said, the roles are reversing now in terms of when we were younger, we were still, I mean, I was never scared of my parents, but their authority was, I mean, my mom or dad, my dad said no, it was a it was a no. And it, it wasn't something I even thought to question. My kids are not like that. I don't know whether I'm getting it right or wrong. And like we said, there is no right or wrong, but we already have given up so much of that control in this new dynamic that we are creating as parents where we want to be our kids allies and we want them to have that, you know, ability to question us and their ability to think critically and thinking critically is part, you know, if you want your brilliant yes, yeah, you have to let them question even you. So in fact, my mum relates this incident. My daughter and I, we were in Goa at my mum's house. My daughter was sleeping in my in my room and she was being just really difficult that night for no reason. She's like, I want to pee, but I'm not going to pee in the big pot. I want. And it was like 3:00 in the morning. This is going down. So I put my foot down. I said, you know, you can't decide all of this and you're not getting your way. And so she started screaming, screaming at me, woke my mother up and my mom came into the room and she was almost laughing. She was like, it's almost like your 4 year old was scolding you as opposed to you scolding the four year old. But of course, the next day I put in the repercussion. She had a punishment. She had a iPad taken away, which is like, you know, she gets one hour a day. She didn't get that one hour a day. She understood she'd done something wrong. But in that moment, she had the courage to turn around and tell me, you know, no, you're wrong. This you're, you're being unfair as a four year old. So even though we see that yes, we're not going to allow our kids on social media at 16, let's just be very conscious of the fact that you. Speaker 3 May not have any control. Speaker 4 Yes, that have the shifting power dynamic. What is control for you? Yeah. Speaker 1 I want to question this word control. Speaker 2 Yes, yes, that's. Speaker 1 What do you think about what? What is control for you? Speaker 2 You know, I think that's the reason why I use the term because our goal is that we want our children to be able to challenge us. And I mean, control being maybe just lack of another word. We don't want control. We don't want control in the conventional sense. We don't want our kids to operate. Speaker 1 From in the absence of control, absence of in the in the absence of. If you knock control off out of the window, what do you want to have instead in that vacuum? Speaker 2 So I'll tell you what's worked for me. Yeah. Rules my child follows. Like she's very good. If I've like put 55 household rules, we don't have too many and they're very like they're non negotiable. No sweets before dinner, bedtime at 7:00 PM. Very simple rules and sometimes she makes up her own rules which she forgets about later. But we have 5 or 6 household rules and those are non negotiable. Those are the things that I can then enforce without there being too much of A. Speaker 3 Conversation. Speaker 2 There's no, there's no pushback from her either. Now that's her, my daughter's personality type. I'm also not the type of person who can be like you are doing this because I said you're doing it. That's not me. For me it is a dialogue, but certain things, if I put them in places rule and those are just non negotiable. I find in my personal experience that my daughter is very receptive to that kind of an environment. Speaker 1 So that's what what we call boundaries. Speaker 3 Yeah. Speaker 1 And if you in the absence of boundaries, kids feel very unsafe. So what you're doing is giving her a sense of this is allow, this is not allow, this is acceptable. This is OK, this is not OK Kids need that. So that's, that's that's what we call containment and boundaries. Control is when you say the parent knows best, the parent is, you know, so that's the shift. The shift is how do we share power? In some places, kids, we have to say, yeah, kids, you're right, I'll do what you want. And in some places you have to. It's a dance between who's holding the power at any given time and as long as kids know, this is when mum sets the sets the boundary and sets the rule. And this is where mum has to back off because this is agreed that I'm on my own and this is my way of doing it. That balance, it's no longer black and white. I call the shots, you do the work. Yeah. Speaker 2 Exactly. Speaker 3 That and I also think that it helps them understand their own boundaries as well, right? And it helps them establish boundaries. Going back to the main crux of this conversation, the great Indian Modern Family. The Great Indian Modern Family So I live with a lot of people and my son is very lucky because he's surrounded by a lot of love, but it's a lot of people. It's lots of like dynamics into play. And something small as as small as giving a family member a hug, It is entirely his choice. I never say. Speaker 2 You. Speaker 3 Have to give I, I mean, we live with my husband's grandmother as well. So that's his great grandmother. He knows that he can't ever like push her or like, you know, run fast around her because we are careful. But whether it's his grandfather, his grandmother, his dad, me uncles and aunts, whoever, if he doesn't want to give somebody a hug, they have to listen, they have to respect it. And I'm very lucky that despite living with so many people, actually every single family member of mine is very respectful of his boundaries. And in the beginning, I think that it took some learning because, you know, he want like, let's say my father-in-law really wanted a hug. I could see it on his face. And you know, I, I want to tell him that, come on, you know, just give him a hug. But I had to 1st teach myself to not say it. I said, when you're ready, you can do it. Would you like to give a high 5 instead? And if you're not ready, that's also OK. And now so many times he comes to me for many things and he says, Mama, I'm not ready. And I said that's OK. So he's understood those boundaries. And I mean, my family has been very supportive that way, that they have been respectful of his boundaries. So I think that's empowered him a little. Speaker 1 Beautiful. What respect? Speaker 4 I think that's also very interesting because if we reflect back when you said, you know, I had to unlearn because if I reflect back to our growing. Speaker 3 We had to hug everybody in the vicinity and the neighborhood. No choice. There was no choice. Speaker 4 No, I mean me and Ravineet both of course very different. We belong to Sikh families. I was not from a very religious family. But the the Sasri calls are important. They are don't get them right. Oh, you know, there was like, how did you how did you not say such regard to my Marcy? I can never forget. Speaker 3 But who is your Marcy? This one. Speaker 4 Time you know, two of my moms, Marcis, and she was very close to them. Yeah, that doesn't mean I have to be close to them, which I only understood when I grew up, but you know, they looked very similar. So you got. Speaker 1 Confused and I got confused. Speaker 4 And Mike, I've never forgotten, you know, the, the kind of anger that my mom showed towards me. You will never do this again. And I'm like, I was just five. I was like 5 or 6. Speaker 3 Years old and my mom used to have this aunt who I've grown up with in my nanny's house and I've I loved her very dearly. We lost her two years ago and my main core memory of her is her giving me the biggest, squishiest hug whether I wanted it or not. Now, of course I look back at it endearingly, but in that moment I used to. I was 5 and I used to just tell my mom that it's just, it's too much of A hug. And she's, I go because she loves you so much, you know? And, and now I've had to unlearn all of that to tell my son that even if you don't want to give a high 5, it's fine. It's also body autonomy. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 4 This. Yeah, and it's also consent, which another friend of our mine is. Speaker 1 And and maybe below that is the score that my child is different to me, has a different reality to mine. Yeah. You know, yeah. Speaker 2 And they're not, even though we like in our case, I mean, OK, we birthed our kids. So there's almost a tendency to start thinking that they're a part of you. And you have to remind yourself that they're not, they're their own individual. They're not a part of you. I mean, yes, of course you love them and you have that attachment, but they have their own agency and they're who they are. And you have to let them discover who they are as opposed to trying to make them some kind of like connected. Speaker 4 I think that also comes from the sense of which I often have to remind parents in the difficult sessions that just because they're your child doesn't mean you own. Speaker 3 That, you know, ownership is. Speaker 4 Yeah, you don't. The child is a person. Be curious about getting to know them. You know that person. Speaker 1 I'll give you one example. So we had this wonderful family. They came to me and the father said look what I do as a dad. I get up in the morning, I take it my kids doing mechano, I teach them how to read and the kid was saying I'm up to there. I'm suffocated. And the mum saying how do I get my husband to back off? I was getting irritated with the dad saying it's so obvious your child is not benefiting by all this extra love that you're putting in. But then it struck me, if I believe that everything a parent does, is it the intention of love? Mostly. All right. Then I then I there's something that I have to see here. So I asked the dad is this is the way you're loving your kid? He said, yeah, this is love. And I said, how were you loved? And he said, that's it. My father was never there for me. So the only way I know of really giving love to my my child is to compensate for what I didn't get, not realizing that your son is not you. So this is the way you wanted it. This is the way you're you're giving it to him. But check with him. Does he want it? What does he want? Does it? Is it, is it anything different? And I remember this poet, David White, after a huge fight with his daughter, entering the room and asking her the best question I've ever, ever heard saying what do you want me to do differently as a dad that might work for you? That's the different that's that's honouring the different spirit that you have. And, and what works for me may not work for you. What didn't work for me may work for you. Who knows? But to but to but to start it from as it to Co create the type of parent that you that works for you, you know. Speaker 2 That's so important. I think if parents just remember that, I think there's that one parenting mindset shift that were to happen, there would be a making. Speaker 4 Room for what? Again, my own theoretical. Speaker 1 Terms. What do you call it? Speaker 4 Reflective introspective parenting. I take a pause and just take a minute to understand what is going on. Speaker 1 Yeah. Is it worth? Speaker 4 It you don't need any expert and you don't. I mean, I could never know your child better than I keep reminding parents. I spent one hour with him in the room. You spent 24/7 with him. You know, I need you to help me understand your child better. But what happens in the moments that you are struggling to understand? Take a pause. Reflect, introspect. Speaker 2 And I think this is important because I quite often fall into the trap of, like, not, I mean, I'm pretty good about it, but I'm very conscious of the fact that I chose to be a parent. Right. I was discussing this with you. It's a choice. My children didn't choose to be born. I chose to have them. Yeah. And there are days where I'm, like, exhausted. And I've done so much for the kids and I'm like, okay, the kids are just not appreciative of what I've done. And then I think back and I'm like, well, they don't need to be. I'm choosing to do all of this because I want to. Yeah, this is a choice that I've made. And then I think about myself with my own mother. I have a great relationship. I had a great relationship with both my parents but whenever my mom enters the room I get a bit irritable and a bit cranky, probably because I'm so comfortable around her. But and she she did a lot for us as well. But I have 0 gratitude. Like 0 gratitude for what my mom did. It's almost like she was supposed to do it and so I understand if my kids feel the same way about me like mum is just supposed to do. Speaker 3 This this is your job. Speaker 2 This is my job. It's my job. I mean, I chose to have them. I'm choosing to parent in a certain way. They they have, they owe me nothing. There's zero amount of gratitude to expect in return. Unfortunately, I take it out on my husband because I can't. Like I'm doing everything and you're not doing enough or whatever it is, but that's perhaps another. Speaker 3 There is no there is a whole other Pandora as my kids. Speaker 4 I think that's really a very powerful admission to make because it also lends you some peace, most importantly, but it also, of course, frees up your children from your outbursts because I makes me think of a very, very, very difficult session I once had. How to deal with conflict in your family But it has stayed with me two years later where I mean it's, it was very meaningful because I had a 17 year old who was really in conflict with her mother and. So much courage, you know, to be able to talk about it in a in front of a stranger. And she was, she made this point to her, I mean, different dynamic. And she said you chose to bring me into this world. I don't have to do anything. I have to just exist. Yeah. Speaker 3 Yeah, good for her. You know, for. Speaker 4 5 minutes after that I was like, that was. Speaker 2 But you agree with that. Speaker 1 Can I can I form a question around this? How many of us as parents want our have our children or want our children to serve our inherent need to feel valued and to feel good enough? So I ask a question. How much do you love yourself as a mum, as a dad, as an individual? Forget about mum and dad as an individual. If I don't love myself, then of course it stands to reason that I'm going to look for love from the person who I couldn't expect it from. And if you don't love me, then my whole ego, if my ego depends on you being the kid I want. If you get 90%, I feel good because our egos are enmeshed. Speaker 4 Well, this. Speaker 2 Is. Speaker 1 Powerful. Yeah. So you don't. You. You exist to make me I feel better as a mom. That's what we're aiming now to separate but. Speaker 2 Yes, this also maybe stem from like secure childhoods. Like if I have not had a secure childhood, this is maybe where that generational trauma comes in. Exactly. These are my Instagram. Instagram. Speaker 1 Views that I see. Speaker 2 Yes, I can see that if I have like an insecure or I'm not, I have like, I don't know, not have had a secure childhood, then maybe I am looking for that love from external sources and that the most most obvious would be like my partner and my children, right? And then there's that unrealistic expectation. So does this somehow stem maybe to our childhoods? Speaker 1 It does hugely, but if we agree with Nanki that there's no perfect parenting, then all of us and in some ways feel we are, we, we lack value and we want that value to come from somewhere outside us, all of us, right? Some of us see it clearly and can I can work on that. And some of us take longer, the more the trauma earlier, the more needy and hungry and empty and dependent we feel on that external validation. Or there are very concrete ways of being validated as a mother or father. Speaker 2 And then what was this management? Yes. Speaker 4 Like, how do you nourish yourself to not be then? Speaker 3 Listen, we live in India. Nobody in these multiple joint families was taught how to nourish themselves. Exactly. Not a single mother knew how to nourish. Speaker 1 That's real. That's. Speaker 3 Real I mean I've and I'm supported by the two most wonderful solid women and I could not have I can't raise my kid on my own. I need my I need my family is my village. I need them, you know, and my friends are my village. But you know, I've seen both these women give their entire lives to their respective families, to their children. And where was where's the nourishment, the generations? And this is what I see in my own home. And these are rock solid women for me. And I and, and think about the entire country. Think about our social structure. Think about how the family structure has been for years and right now we're living in a modern version of it. Think about the time when you were not allowed to have an opinion. You were not allowed to have an opinion to such an extent that I think that women, even silently, didn't have an opinion. Speaker 1 So that's changing now. Yes, that's the news. The woman has a voice. Finally. We run a group of parents for the last 13 years, parents of kids with specific needs. And the first why did we start this? It's called caring for carers because everybody needs to know until I care and fill my own tank, what comes out for my. Speaker 3 Kid can't pour from an empty car. Yeah. Speaker 2 Absolutely. I think we all, I mean, I, I was raised by a working mother who prioritized the home, of course, but she was very good at taking care of herself despite like, I mean, my parents got divorced when I was fairly young. So she had her own challenges, but she knew that she needed to take care of herself to be able to take care of us. So I, my experience with that is that I'm very conscious that I need to be able to do that for myself to be able to be a good parent to my children. So I am very conscious. Speaker 3 You are. I want to. Speaker 4 I want to bring in something very interesting that's happening, which is my favorite theme and which will give a glimpse into the family, the great Indian Modern Family, which is that you're both mothers and of course belong to a particular social structures. Dads and Moms Yes, I mean there's rural, there's urban. So of course we are we're acknowledging all of that. But you're both mothers and you have control over your time. You have control over how you dedicate time. And you're talking about Mom Gage, you're talking about how you how you manage the part about as we spoke, you and me spoke about, you know, the presence for your child. And I wonder if fathers think like this. That's what I'm bringing in. It's my. Speaker 1 Favorite shout out now to all dads. Speaker 2 You know, I tell you guys something. My husband had this conversation with me. He was a little drunk at the time and I don't want to air his dirty laundry, but I'm going to say it. He said, look, you were prepared to be a mother. You knew you knew you were going to have kids. Like he was like, for me, it's still my our daughter's four and our son is 16 months. He was like for me, it's still somewhere sinking in. And you know that there was that shift. I have like thought about motherhood my entire life. I was very clear I wanted to be a mum. I don't think for my husband the reality of it really sunk in till he was actually. Speaker 3 But that's a very brave admission. Speaker 2 Yeah, he admits. I'm. Speaker 3 Very impressed. That's a very, you know, because to turn in inward and be like, listen, you were ready, but I'm getting there. A lot of people don't put in that, especially men. They don't put in that time to reflect. Speaker 4 Can I just say based on my experience with the changing Indian family, I I want to give them the benefit of doubt that no one taught them. Speaker 3 I agree, they are just agreeing. I agree. What they. Speaker 4 Their experience of being parented and how again, I'm very blessed. I had a very different father, very emotionally pleasant, with his own absences, of course, But it is because of that reference point that I'm able to gauge that actually a lot of these fathers want to be involved. They want to learn what emotional presence means, they just don't know how. Speaker 2 To exactly. Speaker 3 Yeah, they don't know how to they really. Speaker 4 They don't know, but that does not change the fact that a child needs 2 parents. They need mom and dad. Yeah. Speaker 2 Or mum and mum and dad. Yes, or. Speaker 4 They need 2 parents. They need 2 parents, yeah. Speaker 2 But, and I feel like again, again, I see Instagram reels where people are like, oh, kids need both parents. But then there are a lot of like single mums and single dads on there who are like, no, you know, you're kind of like making us feel bad by making that statement. So I do want to be conscious. Speaker 4 Absolutely. I think very important. I think they do a lot. And that is not to say they're not doing a good enough job. I think it's just important to acknowledge that it's harder. Anything is harder by yourself. Doing this podcast is harder by yourself. Speaker 2 Yeah, You know, I have two questions actually for Gloria. The role of the father I don't know if that's the correct answer. I know, Gloria, I would have to say to that. Speaker 2 Yeah. I want to hear from you, Gloria, on on this role and the role of the father. How important is it? Are we seeing a huge lack of like the presence of the father, especially in the Indian? And you know, I'll honestly tell you, even in our households, like my husband says this as well, he was like, if we were in Europe, I would be, this is lazy on his part, but he says it. He was like, I would be more involved because I'd have to do it. And here you have you guys, you have the nannies. He was almost making the point that you don't give me the opportunity to do it. Speaker 1 I was going to go there. Speaker 4 Absolutely I. Speaker 1 Was going to go there for the father to step in, the mother has to step aside, yes, and create a space. Speaker 2 A fault. Speaker 1 And when the father comes in, the stories I've heard in the room are she wants me to do it her way. Speaker 2 Yeah, we have. My husband and I have this conversation all the time now. This is my therapy session. But he. Speaker 3 Said 100%. Speaker 2 We may. I made a rule. I was like, I'll do the mornings, you do the nights, you do bedtime. Then I started micromanaging bedtime. So he looked at me and he was like, if you want me to do bedtime, you have to be OK with me doing it my way. Yeah. Which might mean that bedtime is not at 7. Yeah, it might mean it's at 8. Yeah. And then I thought about it. Speaker 3 Like go away from bedtime. Speaker 4 He's absolutely. Speaker 1 So inherently, sometimes the mother's identity is about being the one in charge. Yes, to let go of that means you have to lose something for him to gain space, right? And he might do wrong, but who wants to step into a space where you're coming in with inadequacy and then going to be a failure? I'd rather stay, really. And that's. Speaker 4 What keeps most fathers away? Speaker 3 Once I said something. Speaker 2 Is watching this and it was very. Speaker 3 Happy. Speaker 2 Points are being validated. Speaker 3 They are. But you know, once I said something really mean to my husband because we were trying to make a decision about some and it was like not even that big a decision. It was something small, and I was in a very cranky mood and I got really upset. So, you know, I'm married to someone who works a lot, so his hours are very crazy. And I just looked at him and I said, you know what? I'm the primary caretaker. I'm going to decide. And then I backtracked and I was like, that was, and of course I went and I apologize. And he was like, listen, no, I get it. You know, that I am unavailable for a lot of things. I get it. But I was like, no, that was, that was not a nice thing to say. And I, and I fully used these words. And then when I reflected back on it, I was like, that was not nice. So, and, and I noticed this and I kept, you know, there was a phase where I kept binding that you're not doing this, You're not doing this. Why haven't you done this? And I did exactly what you said. I stepped back a little. I said I cannot do this part. I don't want to do this part. I said I don't want to do this, but this is on you. You figure it out. So that's the question. And he did it much better than I would have done it. Speaker 4 That's a perfect example of what Gayathi was asking earlier, which was that single parents, of course they do so much it's but I think I really want to acknowledge how hard it is to be doing it, to have no one to just brainstorm with. Speaker 1 You know. Speaker 4 Yeah. I mean, I can say that sometimes in private practice, I feel like God taking these decisions by yourself, even your super, there are some decisions that even your supervisor can't help you with. And you're like, OK, I have to take these decisions as the overload, you know, And it's, it's, it's, it applies to everything in life. Speaker 2 So I want to ask both of you, since we've made the point that women are changing, women have more of a voice, maybe like too much like in my case and Ravineet's case, we're both type A personality. So I have to admit I am controlling. Speaker 1 But aren't. Speaker 2 Men changing in the traditional in the modern Indian family are men. Speaker 1 Changing I'll give you one example to prove that of course nothing is across the board OK, but if you never see these lovely Nuggets coming up it's it's heart warming. 8 fathers approached me for a session only for them. Speaker 3 I love that I love this is. Speaker 1 Made twice. Two different sets of dads and what was the question? I want to give my kid more time, but I also I'm I'm the main provider. What do I do? What do I do? Just as you said before, asking the question, putting the intention out there and then the answer is something what can give in order for you to create more time. So something has to shift. And that's the dialogue that we've set up now with two sets of dads. Yeah. Speaker 4 That is beautiful. Speaker 2 That is, and you know what this conversation is making me realize. I have to admit it. So far I have put a lot of blame consciously unconsciously, on my husband not doing as much as I would like him to, but I have to admit that this conversation has made me realize that I just haven't. Speaker 3 Let him let. Speaker 2 Him the space to do it and he said it very many times to me. So I will go and have this conversation. Speaker 3 AD If you're listening, you're welcome. Speaker 4 But it is, you are very true. It is so. I mean you asked me about my clinical experience and this plays out every every other day. I mean every family I work with where you have to also. I mean I'm not blaming mothers at all. Not at all. You have to understand where their one minded agenda is coming from. They're also possibly repeating a script that has been handed to them. Speaker 1 That's true. Speaker 4 You have to then be with them, beside them in the room to understand why they're doing it. Help them understand it and then slowly bring in dad because dads want to be there. Speaker 2 And it's also, I think, a shift for dads. Like, I mean, when my husband and I got married, like, obviously he was just the two of us, right? He was the focus of everything. Yeah, of course. And soon these children. Speaker 3 That's true, actually. Speaker 2 Humans who have taken away not just 90% but like 99% of my attention so from getting like a large chunk of my attention he's gone to getting very little of it and we. Speaker 1 Don't realize the navigating from a twosome to a threesome is a huge journey. Yeah. And I had this image in my mind of the role of dads when you ask it. And Nupur has a brilliant chapter in her book The Role of dads. Imagine the child, we call it the what's the the static feminine? The mother is supposed to you know, I'm, I'm talking about the energy of the mother could sometimes the dads are the static feminine. So the one who nourishes, nurtures holes, contains and, you know, embraces the masculine energy comes in as the one who takes the child off the lap and throws them in the air that without that the child gets almost risk aversive because always needs the arms to feel safe. It's the masculine energy in the home. So when you have two parents, one can hold the masculine energy, one can hold the feminine and doesn't have to be gender specific. True. I agree. And that's the role of the twosome, the separateness. Yeah. That's so interesting. But having. And I remember a workshop I was at once with Shefali Sabari and somebody said, but what if my husband and I are on two different pages? What then? And somebody said, that's why it's better to be a single mum. You know, you can call all the shots. And she said, but you can be on two different pages. The child realizes there's difference. Mum likes it this way and dad likes that that way. And that's OK, They're learning. Speaker 3 Because I have spent a hard time, just a time I. Speaker 4 Mean a parent, a mother who was struggling with this, she was finally able to let dad in and let let the child learn. And he was just, it was just difference. And I said, you know what, you have only exposed him to chocolate ice cream. And now he also knows that strawberry ice cream also exists and it can be equally good. It doesn't have to be 1 or the other. Speaker 1 So when Dad's in charge of night time sleep, it's Dad's we have. Speaker 3 To let them sleep at 8, get the walk away, come to my. Speaker 1 House. Come to my house. Just walk away. Speaker 3 You know, I've never done bedtime unless like I've had to because it's been so it's I just gave that to him from day one. I really had to really had to mentally prepare for it. And I was like, no, because he's, he's always late and he wouldn't see, he wouldn't see Sabar. I said, so it started off when he was of course, a newborn and an infant. I said, at least you'll feel your physical touch because by the time you come back from the hospital, you take a shower, you're, you're OK to hold the baby, You know, I said, at least you'll feel your physical touch. He'll know you're there. So we started off with that and then I've just never done bedtime. It's always been Sukrit. And when he's not there, someone puts himself to sleep with a nanny or me hanging back somewhere. But actual bedtime has always been his dad. And that was very hard for me to do. And a lot of my friends were like, how can you give this up? It's such a good time. I said he gets 15 minutes with him when he's late, then let him get the best 15 minutes of the day. That's OK, I get it. I get him throughout the day in bits and pieces and I think that's really helped them form a very, very strong emotional bond and coming to and I want to go back to this generational family dynamic. You know, I come from an all girls house with two sisters and there's lots of feelings in the house. So my dad is used to lots of feelings and lots of affection and lots of hugs and kisses. And I got married into a house where there were two boys, very rowdy, masculine, naughty, you know, and there were and my, and my mom in law is like the sweetest, softest, you know, person you'll ever meet. But there's like, there's very little like emotional I love you and hugging and, and all of that. Love is different. The language of love is very different. And now with with Sabar, I see that change because when he's running off to school, Sukrit will be across the house and he'll scream I love you. And from the other corner, my father-in-law is screaming I love you. And in that moment, I'm just like, I'm so lucky that these men have just unlearned whatever they were doing and they were adapted. And they're doing this because I want my son to hear this. Not from me, not from his dadi, not from his chachi, but from the mayor, members of the family. And they're all screaming it. All three of them are screaming it from different rooms of the house and I think that that's such a positive way for a boy to be raised. Speaker 4 Yeah, that's so sweet. That's really sweet. Speaker 3 It is, actually. It's one of my favorite things about my. Speaker 4 Yeah, it's really sweet. And I think, you know, it's very interesting. We're talking about you. I know. I mean, Sukrit is a wonderful doctor and I know he's very busy and I can only imagine how hard it must be for him to make time for his child. It's not because he doesn't want to. So similar to the dilemma you brought in of dads, I think it's very important to acknowledge where dads are coming from because socially there is a, there is a script that's handed out down to them as well of providers, right? And that's the shifting provider bit mindset. Of course, it comes with it's own convenience because as women are entering into the workforce, it is still taken for granted even today. That, I mean, I guess it has to be in a way that when it when the child is born, it's the mother who kind of quits and the dad goes back to work. And then whether the mother comes back, whether the mother doesn't come back, if there is a problem with the child, mother becomes the primary caretaker. Yes. And Gloria brought in the very, very valid point of. And I think I use a lot of that in my work with families that OK. But you are not the only decision maker as as my mom would often say, you know, the child didn't come in your dowry. You know, the concept, OK, where is the father? What does he have to say? And oh, he's at work. He's always, you know, he's at work, OK? Even my father, I mean, he was designing golf courses across the country. You know, he was never physically present, but I was still emotionally connected to him. So the concept of emotional presence, you don't have to be involvement is not physical. He could be in, he could he, You know, he would be travelling to the South and every time, sometimes he would call specially for me and sometimes he would call for more. I mean, she and mom would talk at night and then it would be OK, let me talk to the kids. So I think that extra mile he went in. Speaker 1 Beautiful. Speaker 4 Letting me know that I may not be there, but I'm thinking of you is what stayed with me and of course in and then it was as we and another thing which I noticed we're talking about is bedtime because they're four and five and another two years. They're not going to want either of you. You know, let's let's not forget that the. Speaker 2 Cave is freeing up my evenings. Yeah. How long? Speaker 3 Bedtime. Speaker 1 I want to follow up on what Nanke is beautiful. The importance of fatherhood Yeah. Speaker 1 It's two things that are that are coming alive in me. 1 is when Dad's away, mums can still keep space for Dad. In the child's mind, Dad was here, what would he do? So, so sometimes it's not physical presence is not always possible. And the second thing it's going to, it's going out of my mind. I want to pull it back. It's gone. Speaker 4 I can share another experience because as we grew older, so initially it was that and then I went into middle school and I remember having this profound conversation. I don't remember what I said, but I, it was very matter of fact where he was travelling. And I told my mom, you know, her dad doesn't really spend time with me. And I was attached to the hip with my mother in many ways and. Speaker 3 She was a verbose teenager. Yes, I remember that. Yes, and. Speaker 4 She actually, she took it up with my father and there was a change, instant change. It was compulsory that I had to go for a walk with him every evening. Speaker 1 That's what I was thinking. Speaker 4 So change the game within six months. The ritual. Speaker 1 The ritual. Speaker 3 Yeah. Speaker 1 The ritual can change as the child gets older, but the ritual is important. Speaker 2 So, and you know, you see that ritual developed. My son is 16 months, so he'll go to his dad and we have a Weimaran, a dog. OK, so he wants to sit on my husband's lap at 16 months. He sees him, he asks for it and he wants to watch videos of this dog, just random video. So he'll go, he can say the words Neo and Shmu. So he'll go, he'll go Shmu, Shmu, neo, neo. And this is like their bonding thing. They just do this like multiple times a day. And my daughter and my husband make like AI paintings, like beautiful AI paintings. So it's kind of like, you're right, rituals. And I wonder why these kids just seek out the same thing every time they see their father. But they do they have these, they both have their one thing that they ask him to do, and that's their thing. We're running out of time, but I want to have one conversation before we do. How do you know if your child is a good attachment style? We've spoken so much about attachment styles, right? We've used the terms. I think maybe our audience doesn't really know what we're talking about. And this is a question I want to answer. Ask for personal reasons. I grew up also in a nuclear family, as did my husband. Both, both are sets of parents met, they fell in love. They were living independently even at the time when they met. Like my mom was working, my dad was working, they met, they lived in a bursati before they made money, and my husband's parents also met. They've got married. They were living in Germany on their own. So we're both from 2 sets of hypernuclear families. Like you, I had no idea any other kind of family existed. However, after getting married, we both of us from our nuclear families set up where there was no parental pressure to live in our like in a joint family set up. I ended up marrying my husband and moving into his mother's home. And I've had my own conversation with myself. Am I living there because I have to or am I living there because I want to? And I think I've come to the conclusion that I'm living there because I want to because there is no have to. And that stems from a, the fact that my mother-in-law is incredibly uninterfering. So I get the best of both worlds where I have a responsible adult at home for my kids for when me and my husband are out. But at the same time, there's zero interference from them. They're very like she's very hands off. But you said something, you said something about having an impact on attachment. I want to just understand what are attachment styles and how is that attachment different in multi generational joint family homes and how is it different in nuclear family homes? Because we have learnt that it takes a village to raise a child and that village might not just be the parents, it can be more than that. And that's what Rivneet and I kind of have depended on, right? You know what is the impact on our kids? Speaker 3 But I want to add to this very quickly because I think it's a very important part of our conversation. While Gethi and I, you know, we have these supportive in laws, right? I have, I have the sense that for a lot of things, we are also the exception to the rule. And I acknowledge that. I know we're the exception to the rule and I know it's not this way. Whether you look at a whether you look at a privileged family or you look at a not so privileged family, We're definitely an exception to the rule because I've and we've both had multiple friends come and say that, OK, I just can't like something as small as I just can't get my son or my daughter to wean off this particular chocolate because every time I come home from work, the grandparents have given 3 chocolates and sugar is like, it's so bad for them to be given at to be given this often, right. So I understand the parental concern and and then there's a complete, and this is, it may not be happening to us, but I kid you not, it's possibly happening to 80% of the country, 80% of our of our mom friend for sure. That and this is just the easiest, most basic example to give that they've just given candy when they're not supposed to because grandparents are like, let us spoil but the boundaries that the parents are working tirelessly. You're working on your marriage, you're working as a family together to set these boundaries to do this for your kid. If you're living with lots of people, if people are not cognizant of those boundaries, I I'm a bit worried about what that does to a child's mind. Speaker 2 Let's hear let can can you both explain a little? Speaker 1 Bit I think you're really touching reality. Speaker 4 Thank you. Speaker 1 And there is no easy answer to ease. To give you a minimized answer is to really not value this as a real issue. And these are the questions we always get asked. Sometimes it's easy to be a nuclear unit where you know the parents have things on their terms, but you you lack the support sometimes that you need. And sometimes the value of the joint family is negated somewhat by all these different kind of Co parents that think on different terms. There is no easy answer, but I know that in family therapy we invite generations, we invite grandparents in because again, you can't blame them. This is the way they show their. Speaker 3 100% because they don't know anything else. Because. Speaker 1 They don't know anything. Speaker 3 Different, and that's what they were. Speaker 1 Shown. Yeah. So a lot of the places I've worked you have workshops for grandparents. That's actually lovely, you know. Speaker 3 You have. Speaker 1 Grandparent Day and you value what they're bringing in, but you also allow them to see a different side picture. And I think in family therapy we keep the we keep the child in the centre what's imagine what he's going to feel like. So you advocate for that child when in family systems? Speaker 3 Gloria, if I may, unfortunately in India, there's a lot of families, especially big joint families where the sentence is. And that, I think is the most heartbreaking sentence which lives at the heart of most Indian modern. Speaker 4 So how I would answer it is absolutely how you ended it is that for me, as I have often been accused of as a child psychotherapist, and I often strongly identify with the child. And it has taken years of supervision to also kind of align with the parents. And my focus is always to help parents mentalize. What is the child witnessing in terms of interactions in the house? What is the emotional environment when you enter the room? Does that make sense? Yeah. I mean, yeah, you can call it a vibe, you know, when you enter the home because that is going to be influenced by every new energy in the room. Yes. And when I say that, what I mean is there's so much we did. Our conversation didn't go into that direction. But very much I learnt in family therapy, there is a grandparent in real life and then there is the grandparent in the mind, right. And often the Indian script is because of the big P word of patriarchy. Let's, let's bring that into the room, that there is a particular way that families exist, right? Where a woman enters into the house and lives with the yeah, lives with the male, with the male partners, parents, etc. That's the power I was talking about. That's the power I was alluding to. When I say power, it is How is that person welcomed into the house? How is that person talked to in the house? How's that person talk to it? Simple mundane times. Yeah. Or meal times. How is that person talked about when that when, for example, for a child, how is my mother talked about when I am not? When she's not in the room. Speaker 2 Yeah, interesting. And something we from our position of like obvious privilege don't think about. Yeah, you know, Yeah. And you're right, there is a power dynamic in most households and just overhearing how your parent is being spoken about but have a deep impact on a child. I've never got it. Speaker 4 So, and then how does the child carry this pressure to be my mom's protector? Often children, adults, I've worked with adult patients who have come in saying I have played this role for my mom and dad because she did not have a voice and cannot have a voice. Yes, it's very important to acknowledge and that's why privilege, support, how much do women kind of give in is also an important dynamic because everything from everything about that environment is going to be shaped by that family in terms of how you pray, how you eat, what you eat, how you talk about each other, how you talk to each other, how do you greet each other? You know, what happens, what are the consequences when these prescriptions are not followed? So family scripts is what I call them. You know that what is the child witnessing and what is his or her internal experience as a result of it is how I would answer that. Speaker 1 Yeah, brilliant. And I'm wondering if here's where, again, we've we need to focus on the. Of course, the large family is sometimes out of our control. Yeah, but what is under control is the spousal system, the husband and wife. So can we get them to to really create something that the child has a different narrative for? So around that, that's a narrative we can't control. But this counter narrative where the the husband values the the partner and and vice versa, is that enough to start another story in the child's mind about my Mama and about safety and about respect? Speaker 3 No, I agree. And I think that, you know, Sukrit and I actually take this role very seriously because Sabar has seen us argue, Sabar has seen us kiss, Sabar has seen us hug each other, Sabar has seen us apologize to each other, and Sabar has seen his dad prioritize his mum before him. That's a big one for the kids. Yeah. He said no, I need to give Mama a hug first because she's upset. I'm just coming to you. Yeah. My husband has said these words, you know, and he has seen us argue. And sometimes I'm like, Oh my God, I've traumatized my kid. He's like watching us argue and but at the same time, he will also catch us. I make sure. And yeah, he catches that. Us doing the repair work. That's everything. That's everything. Speaker 1 Remember that the question What's the greatest gift parents can give their kids? The greatest gift parents can give their kids You you heard that question and the answer is can they respect my? Can they respect can, can the dad respect my, my mum? Yeah, yeah, true. Can my mum respect my dad? Speaker 2 And I think this was also for me, like again, it's so easy for me to get so preoccupied with the children that I forget about my poor husband. And it's not the same for him. For him, I'm very much still the priority and I think in the hierarchy still above the kids for me. Speaker 3 You are the love of his life and it's very evident. Yes, but. Speaker 2 But I again saw an Instagram real. Speaker 1 Said some of. Speaker 2 The previous gift that was exactly that. The best thing that you can do for your children is work on your relationship. Speaker 3 Just have a happy marriage. It's. Speaker 2 Everything. I'm a product of a divorced home, so I really know the value of that statement. Like the one thing that I could look back in my childhood and just been like, oh, gosh, it just my parents had gotten along. They hadn't, you know, if if their separation hadn't happened, when it happened, I was like, OK, thank God. They hate each other so much. Like, it's better. They've both gone their separate ways. But in that moment, like if they could be together, that would have been incredible. Speaker 1 That's for another broadcast. Speaker 2 It's for another. Speaker 1 Broadcast When is divorce OK? Yeah. And what makes it OK? And what makes it OK? Speaker 2 And how do you? Speaker 4 Deal. As long as Gloria's coming for it. Yes, you walked right into that. Speaker 1 No, no, I'll give You Beautiful. Speaker 4 There I know there are lots of. Speaker 3 No, but I know we're running out of time but I have to ask 1-2 more things maybe because I'm feeling very selfish and greedy over here because I live in a giant setup and I have these questions also right now. How to deal with the constant voice in your head that your son isn’t eating dinner with his family? For example, traditionally, like your, your traditional joint family, everybody's eating all meals together. We don't really have these rules at home. We like to eat with each other whenever we can, schedules per meeting. But you know, because everybody eats dinner a little bit later and my son eats a little bit earlier. So what happens is that he he's eaten dinner and then he comes down and hangs out with everybody at the dining table. But there's this constant voice in my head saying he's not eating dinner with his family. He's not eating dinner with his family. But I can't feed him dinner when it's time for him to sleep because that's when we're all eating and nobody's home when he's. So then how is he? How is he supposed to work? Speaker 1 This is the second time her her little voice is popped up saying, But I'm doing it wrong, yeah. Speaker 2 You know which. Speaker 1 Is what? Because we're in the realm of comparison. Yeah. Doing it wrong. According to what? Yeah. And go down to the bottom line. What is this? Eating dinner together? What is this pickup thing? It's nothing about creating spaces for connection. So if you don't connect, create this space for connection, you create that space for connection. So look at the real intention for why you eat together. Speaker 3 So we, yeah, we did that. But see, my me righting my wrong is that as soon as dinner is done, Daddy knows that everything has to be dropped. And it's Daddy and Summer's time in the library, and nobody's allowed in because that's just. Speaker 1 That it's another. Speaker 4 Ritual. So there you go. You're giving him experience of connection. That's. Speaker 2 It, I want to say something about this comparison thing because I feel like we're stuck in it a little bit when we grew up like our parents. The power of a simple act of connection I mean, I, I was put in, I, I had hobbies, I rode horses. I, you know, had a lot of extracurricular things to do, but it wasn't a preoccupation in my family. Like I was allowed to just be bored. Speaker 4 Thank you. Speaker 1 Yes, it's a magic word, yeah. Speaker 2 There is I fight and I've chosen to live where I live because I live in a beautiful farm. My kids go and they collect Peacock feathers for fun. They I haven't put slides and you know, all these, you know, sort of jungle gyms and stuff because I want my kids to be bored. I want them to figure it out and they do. And I see that transpiring because of the fact that we are lucky enough to live very far out, but it's quite green. We are in a lot of like, we have a very like lucky green space. But what I find myself doing is that everyone I know is like putting their kids in multiple classes, right? Sports class, this play group, that play group and it's on every day of the week. And I'm thinking, OK, my, my child is missing out. My child should be going for this and going for that. And I really had to work very hard to like stop myself from that and let her take the lead. So I asked her, do you want to go for this class? If she wants to go, then she goes. So she's chosen 2 things that she actually is excited to go about. And on some days, she doesn't even want to go for those. And I let it be. But it is so hard to operate from that place because you feel everyone else is doing it. So is your child falling behind if you're not doing it? Is this a trap or is this like something is? Is it a good thing that we should be exposing our children? Speaker 1 To some of the session with excellence. Speaker 4 Absolutely. Speaker 3 I don't know how. Speaker 4 To and it's compromising attunement, it's compromising connection. I call it over scheduling. Speaker 2 So what is the rapid like? What is the impact of that? Because we're all every mother listening to this podcast is in the same situation where. Speaker 3 They're all doing 5 classes minimum. Speaker 4 Well, I will always again begin with maternal mental health and say whose need is it? Whose need is it to go for the piano to each other? Speaker 3 And you want to drown in a coffee? Speaker 4 Whose need is it for the child to just get experience of everything? You know, when he grows up, he's going to thank me. You don't know that. Speaker 3 He's not thanking me. He's. Speaker 4 Not thanking you, let him be a child. I call it. This is the age of stolen childhood. I mean that's that there is a. Speaker 3 That's the impact child. Speaker 1 But see, let's balance it. So not push, push, push push. For what end? For what is the? What is the need? What answer honestly? What is the need then? What does my child want? I need. What does my child need? And and yes, children need exposure. This is the time when you give them exposure. But there's certain things called when it becomes compulsive and obsessive, then you know it's coming from an early need of the, the parent. So you need exposure, you need to throw them into the I, I got angry with my mom till date, saying you never exposed me. She exposed she was overexposed to ballet and music at her age in the 1940s, right? So when it came to our turn, she said, no, I, I suffocated with too much. So I was sent to no class, nothing, right? And I said, damn it all, I'm holding it against you that I have no hobbies, right? So it's not about all or nothing. It's about exposing and you get there's a sense of where the kids interest lies and again the next level. So the child is interested in three things. What happens next? They must do exams in each of these three things. They must get certificates in each of these three things. I had a mum in my room once saying my son is the best swimmer in his school but he's not attending any of the competitive events. We look at the kid, you talk to the kid and he said, I'm not a competitive guy and I love the way I'm talking too much now, but I'll continue with this. I love the way the Sufis have a way of looking at children, the essence of children. It's called the elemental model. It's outstanding and it's so simple and it's not pathological. So, and this is where coming back to your comparison, my one child is what they say a water child. What is a water child? Think of water adaptable, takes the shape of the container, flows, nourishes, can also can also flood with emotions, right? Can also get hard and frozen like ice. That's water kid. I have a fire kid. My fire kid is. Sparky puts his hand up before they answer the question is asked. Crusade justice, ma'am. You'll give her less marks than me? Whatever. That's my. Speaker 2 Daughter, by the way. Speaker 1 So fire kid, water kid, air kid, earth kid, that's the sole essence even as you're being born before, right? And we've had to observe kids for 50 hours at a stretch, and we can see differences as the baby's being born right now. What happens when this child comes in? I mean, I, I just lost, but what we were talking about before this comparison comparison. So this before this, this the over scheduling, the over scheduling, the competitiveness. So one kid would love to be competitive. He's the fire kid. I'll do my best, I'll push me, ask me, challenge me. The water kid is going to say, I want to adjust. I want to go into a collaborative sport. I don't want to be the first. Now you're, you're dealing with two different realities, two different realities. So true. Speaker 2 And I mean, I we can look at our own childhood. I used to ride horses compared like I was really good apparently. Like people really thought I would exceed in it, excel in it. Sorry. But what happened is that when it went into higher levels of competition, I stopped enjoying it, actually started making excuses and not showing up. Speaker 4 Also, I think it's a function of. Just because you can doesn't mean you want to, right? I mean when I. Speaker 3 Can and want. Speaker 4 When I was in grade 11, I was of course, a typical DPS Altipuram child. And, you know, academically oriented is what I'm going to call it. And I had a choice between it was a very natural thing that emerged. Of course, I knew in grade 7 that I'm going to do psychology. But OK, when, when the when the form came and it was, do I want to do science, which was architecture similar to my dad, or do I want to do psychology? And I could have done science, but I didn't want to do science. I could have gone and done, you know, I got into a particular college for economics, which is considered whatever. Wow. But I didn't want. Speaker 3 It but Nanki, that's because you had parents who helped you understand the difference between. Speaker 4 That's what it comes down. That's because they gave me the freedom to to just choose. They, they let me sit with my conflict where it was, OK, what do you want? And how I, how I kind of share that with parents is. And again, dads are far more flexible and wanting to follow. That is, meet your child while he or she is there. Then don't assume. Don't assume they like swimming class. Speaker 2 Yeah. And I think we're very good at that. Speaker 3 No, we're very good. We're very good. We don't. Speaker 2 Like this? You don't like this, and they're very. Speaker 3 They're very clear. Speaker 2 They're very clear about what they enjoy. Speaker 4 They'll tell you which. Speaker 2 Instructor they like which they don't. I think this OK, but guys now we are really running out of time so I'm gonna now do 1 parting thought for everyone. One thing you wish someone had told you before becoming a parent And her take away is. Speaker 2 Yes, absolutely. So one quick question for you. Speaker 4 Of course. Speaker 2 If there was one thing you wish someone had told you before becoming a parent, this is for Rivneet. What would that one thing be? Speaker 3 That that treated like that that. Speaker 2 Ravneet is fumbling. I've never heard her like. Speaker 1 She's thinking, she's thinking. Speaker 3 One piece of advice that someone had told me before I became a parent, right, that I didn't know that. Don't be, don't have so much fear. Like, you know, just just jump off the damn boat. I did that two years ago, guys. It was life changing. I jumped off a damn boat. But I wish someone had told me that. Just jump off the damn boat. You will swim. Stop holding on to the raft. You know, I wish someone had told me that, that it's it's like an adventure sport. There's. Speaker 1 So much freedom, as you said, Yeah. Speaker 3 But you know, I have to say this, I have to say this because a lot of my friends who are not mums, they ask me, do you know, like, how would you, what is this like? How would you describe it? And I look at them dead straight in the eye and say, this is the most liberated I have ever felt in my entire life. I've never felt this way before. And this is the This is the most free. Children are supposed to weigh you down or hold you back. This is the most free I have ever. Speaker 1 Next podcast, how do you? Speaker 2 So much to go into a next question, but I agree with that. I think for me also, I'm just finding parenting a lot of fun. I'm loving to getting to know my little kids and honestly it allows you to be a child like my daughter wants. Sometimes I get annoyed honestly. She wants to play all these make believe games all day long. But like, where do where have I gotten to do that? And my son, it is at the stage where he's discovering new things for the first time, like how to turn on the tap and the joy in his face at the most mundane task makes me feel joyful. And you recognize it's like almost getting a second chance to experience joy in life because you're experiencing it through your through your kids. Because we become so like, I don't know, jaded and jaded, yes. But now for Gloria, for you, my question is from your clinical practice. How do you deal with a child who is jaded? If there was one thing that kids wish their parents knew, what would it be? Speaker 1 I'm going to, I'm going to share what an adult client has taught me because of our work with her internal child. And she said this. I'm paraphrasing. Please don't let me work so hard to earn your love. Speaker 2 Yes. Speaker 4 That's beautiful. Speaker 2 That is. And yeah, absolutely. I think that's such an important realization as well. Same question for you, Nanke. Speaker 4 Can you repeat it? Speaker 2 From your clinical experience, if you look at the child's point of view or even the the inner of child in an adult, what is the one thing that they wish that the adults in their lives knew? Speaker 4 So I think I'm going to answer that question based on my experience with children. And as a lot of my colleagues know that I keep telling, I mean, send me kids. You know, I love working with children. I love it. And I think a lot of it has to do with that. Every experience with them teaches me so much, so much about myself, about the world. And I think parents forget that they go into this instructive role with their children, which comes with its own pressures of I should know this. I should fix it when he's crying. I should fix it when he gets hurt. It should fix everything. And of course that's that there's, there's a there's an aspect of that to parenting. But actually, if you just get a little curious about your child and see what emerges in that relationship, the personhood that is emerging is going to make you feel a lot more alive than you probably feel in a lot of other interactions. Speaker 2 I agree. I, like I said, that's my favorite part of parenting, is just getting to know them and honestly just seeing the world through a fresh lens. Yeah, like a very joyful lens. I mean sometimes tantrumy, but mostly joyful. Speaker 4 That's part of it. Speaker 3 We're only told to go back to our rooms. Speaker 1 We are told to go back to our. Speaker 3 Rooms we are not seeing. Speaker 4 It and it really it can if you if you are able to step out of that role of instruction and adult and you know, if you just be with. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 4 It it heals you, it does. Speaker 3 In ways we can't explain. Speaker 4 In ways we could never understand, that's that's a human experience. Speaker 2 Now I want to go hug my kids. Speaker 3 That's what I was thinking. Speaker 2 But thank you, Gloria, for joining us in this podcast. It's honestly been insightful. I've had some really important takeaways. My husband is going to write you guys a thank you letter. Speaker 3 I think so. I'm spending a dinner invite. Speaker 2 I think this is more like a counseling session for my marriage than it was for like my my parenting. I think my parenting were I'm in a good. Speaker 1 Place can I say one last thing because I'm feeling uncomfortable about about parents who are listening in and say, but I'm stuck. I've got so much on my plate. I'm overwhelmed. Where do I start? And I really want to say start with yourself. Look at your own burden. If it's too full, find ways of emptying your own burden. And then look at your child's burden to empty into you because your child is going to, you're the burden for your child's emotions, overwhelm, tantrums, outbursts. And if your burden is full and you're not able to empty that, then it's very unfair of me as a therapist or Nanki as a therapist to say, please get your act together. So first tend to your own burden, empty it and emptied in small ways, very small ways. We can we can even do some simple way of emptying your button if you don't have the big nourishment thing and you can't take a day off and whatever simple ways of really acknowledging what you need and emptying your button very important to start with self. Speaker 4 Thank you. That's very powerful. And I'm really going to be the therapist that I usually AM and say that often, you know, of course I love working with children, but I don't like I said, I don't know how to work outside of the family context. I have to work with parents. And it's so easy for parents also, not because they want to, to kind of pathologize like this, this is wrong. This is wrong systems to pathologize the child. But what are we as the adults doing? What are we doing about what we bring into the relationship and what how are we working on ourselves? And often you'll hear, but I meditate, I do yoga, I do a lot, you know, I do a lot to take care of myself. But firstly, none of that is practiced. And is that enough? What? Speaker 2 I just want to say one thing. Sometimes it's also OK to be overburdened. Like I've had those moments and I'll tell you, yes, yesterday or day before, I had come home and both the kids were crying. They both will have have a bit of a cold and they were both being difficult as kids sometimes can be. And I found myself like really at my threshold because I'd had a difficult day at work. I'd woken up multiple times at night to check on them. The dog had woken me up at 4:00 AM and I was just, I was brimming here. And I saw myself being reactive as opposed to like just letting them have their moment and being frustrated because I'm a big believer and like just letting kids have their emotion. But I was getting triggered. So what I did is I actually just walked away. I went to my husband. I was like, I'm not going to be able to handle this adequately right now. You need to step in and like comfort them. And I actually just retreated from the room, took a minute, had my tea in peace, didn't have any idea what was going on in there. And when I came back, my daughter was in a great mood. My son was quiet and oh, there was peace. So sometimes you just have to recognize that you're also like you full, you're full. And you need to be able to maybe take a step back in that moment and allow someone else who's. Speaker 3 You let him handle crisis, yet you needed the podcast to let him handle bedtime. Speaker 2 Crisis I have to let him have to handle quite because I get way more triggered than he does. He's a way more calm person. So when I find myself getting triggered I'm like this is. Speaker 3 You go ahead. It's. Speaker 4 Co regulation, Yeah, that's Co regulation. That's why I say parenting is a two person. Speaker 1 Job it is if you're on your own. Can we do a last minute tip of how to regulate when there's no husband there to pile on? How to regulate when you’re alone Yes, whatever. So I mean, literally, it's about telling what's happening when you're triggered. You're going into fight and flight mode saying something bad is going to happen. Threat. I can't handle this. So the brains getting a sense of threat is around and that's when you are going to explode, right. And yes, you do have an impact when you explode on your child. So you owe it to yourself to say, what can I do? Well, as I'm feeling myself exploding, so we can do something quickly now. Yeah. So just close your there are three things, but we'll do one thing. Just close your lips together, but keep your teeth apart. Teeth are apart, lips are closed and just drop your tongue. Speaker 2 All automatically felt my shoulders. Speaker 1 Your shoulders drop. Yeah, OK, that's your your waking up your parasympathetic nervous system to tell the brain Chill, you'll handle this. It's not an emergency. Speaker 2 This worked. Speaker 3 Like I was a little bit blown away how it just went. Speaker 2 Yeah, my shoulders just immediately relaxed. Speaker 1 Use your body to just soothe yourself and that's emptying your Burton when you're on your own now, the minute the child comes running in and you've already, at least you've given yourself that space and this this much less emotional liquid in your Burton to take in what the child is offering you. Speaker 2 That was so useful, thank you. Speaker 4 Use your body to support your mind. Speaker 3 Nobody ever taught us this. Why wasn't this taught us? Told therapy. I agree. I agree. I agree. I'm having. Speaker 1 The easier one than that you'll get it on your Instagram is the psychological side. Two small in breaths, 1 long exhales through the mouth. Speaker 4 Yes, that's my favorite. This is grounds you. Speaker 1 As long as you can. Speaker 3 Do this to the kids all the time. Speaker 4 Breathing is a free pin. Speaker 1 Yeah, and imagine if your child saw you do this and calm down. Then you're giving them a skill for regulation. Yeah. Speaker 2 But thank you. Thank you, Gloria. Thank you. Yes. Speaker 1 Thank you please. Speaker 3 Come back. Speaker 1 Thank you. Thank you for having me come back. Speaker 4 I think you see that we have it on tape. She is coming back, yeah. Speaker 1 No, no, not at all. Speaker 3 Because I feel like she already crashed the surface. And I'm so grateful that you agreed to do this with just a bunch of very excited friends because I think that I think that this is a service to. Speaker 4 All parents. I What? Is there something worries about this? Her being a first? Yeah. Speaker 2 Now, now KRIT is going to cut these reels and I'm going to like reference these reels when I told. Speaker 1 You could we make it more relevant to parents who are not as securely established as. Speaker 4 Both of you. I mean, information is important, but context. Speaker 1 Is also and the exception to the realism. The exception is important to bring in somehow. Speaker 2 And hopefully we have a whole season and hopefully there will be Nuggets that will then be, you know, applicable to everyone. And I think initially for us also, this is recognizing our privilege, which is something that we are conscious of, but not as conscious of, you know, and as we sort of like go forward with these conversations, it will force us to like take the conversation in those directions. Speaker 4 I think it's, yeah, it's also what you do with that awareness, right? So hopefully as we progress and evolve. Speaker 3 I think my idea of this like because when we were talking about family also now the reason why I said that all of this is happening in my house is that it was from a point. I of course understand how lucky I am and how privileged I am, but it was also said from a point of view that people's parents, children's grandparents actually put in the effort to make this happen for the kids. So it's an example to all the parents listening that if and also you have to communicate enough with your own parents, right to tell them that listen, do it this way. Actually, one thing I really wanted to say and I completely forgot was, you know, there was a difference. My mom kept saying that, you know, he just loves daddy so much more than me. And I was like, mom, take a step back. Daddy sits with him, please reads books. You are going nuts doing logistics that okay, this is not available here. Let me procure this. Let me make this for him. Let me make this happen. Can I make him more comfortable? I was like, he's not going to remember any of this. He remembers the time spent and then there was a shift in how my mom spent time with him, but she was willing to learn that from me, you know, so that that shift in grandparents also comes from a place where your parents and your in laws and that that layer of your family is willing to listen to you. And I think that that was the point that I was trying to make, that that, OK, the great Indian joint family is difficult, but even that generation is changing. Yeah, they are changing. Speaker 4 They have to shift and sometimes when things are in change and in flux, it's challenging, but because they're all shades, but it'll come to a new normal. Speaker 2 And I guess this is for every generation as well, right? And again, Narki, I have to thank you for this, that sometimes when I have like, and we've just gotten to know each other, but sometimes when I have like thoughts about my parenting, I remember one thing you said. Conclusion You said that for your child, for any child, the most important thing is there is the presence, yeah, of the caregiver and the quality of that presence. And sometimes when I'm like, oh, am I doing enough? Am I doing the same? Like I'm home, I'm playing with her. Maybe that's just it enough. Speaker 1 Yeah, and you know what? Research says 20 minutes. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 Of unquality time 20 minutes a day. Speaker 2 And that's such a practical tip because I know people are busy, but if you can just take out those 20 minutes. Speaker 1 Where the child sets the agenda, not you. Yeah. Speaker 2 It is just us do definitely set the agenda. No, So thank you. Now we are going to definitely wrap up. Speaker 4 Thank you.